1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: production of My Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called 6 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer 7 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: Paul Mission Controlled deconds. Most importantly, you are you, You 8 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't 9 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: want you to know. This episode, i would say, is 10 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: something that we should all consider. An introductory episode goes 11 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: a lot of places where we're essentially gonna gonna walk 12 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: to the front of some rabbit holes and then we're 13 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: going to leave it up to you how far down 14 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: you want to dive in those on your own time. 15 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: But this, this episode has some passed for us. In 16 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: an earlier listener mail segment, UH, one of our fellow 17 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: conspiracy realists struck a chord with a lot of people 18 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: when they brought up a place that is today known 19 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: as the Rocky Flats National Wildlife Refuge. But do not 20 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: let that name fool you. This thing does have a 21 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 1: past and it remains controversial today. Why well, here are 22 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: the facts. Uh. You know, first question might ask if 23 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 1: you missed that listener mail segment where if you don't 24 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: read all the emails we get is uh, hey, guys, 25 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: where is Rocky Flats? How did it get there? Why 26 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: should I care? Like I got stuff to do? Why 27 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: do I have to learn about this? Yeah, it's a 28 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: very fair question. Uh. And then answer dates back to UM. 29 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: The aftermath of World War Two in the US double 30 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: down on the production of nuke's partnering with a company 31 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: called Dow Chemical. You might have heard of UM, the 32 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: Atomic Energy Commission as it was known at the time. 33 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: UM built a nuclear production facility at Rocky Flats. There's 34 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: a plateau about fifteen miles northwest of Denver. UM it was, 35 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: you know, built in a very idyllic, beautiful, open, windy plane, 36 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: and that part in the proximity to Denver. It's kind 37 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: of become super important later fallout. This is still very 38 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: early days of nuclear technology nuclear production, and there was 39 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: both a need to expand and to create more opportunities 40 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: to refine those techniques. Yeah, okay, that's that's on me. 41 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: I used a little bit of like HR language. If 42 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: you've ever worked in corporate America. You know how HR 43 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: representatives UH phrase things like areas of opportunity, which means 44 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: you're not doing well and something. When we say refined techniques, 45 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: what we're saying is this construction predates the e p A, 46 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: the Environmental Protection Agency. It's very old and at the 47 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: time time, people didn't know as much as they know 48 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: today about how to safely handle nuclear material, about how 49 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: you're supposed to deal with the waste that's produced, you know, 50 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: and and they didn't know as much about the long 51 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: term effects exposure can have to human beings. They weren't 52 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: trying to do very dangerous things. They were trying to 53 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: be careful. But this is still, like you said, well, 54 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: this is the fifties. Let's remember. I mean, if anyone's 55 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: familiar with the game Fallout, you know, like the that 56 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: all takes place in the early fifties, at least in 57 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: the first game, when you know, nuclear technology is being 58 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: touted as like the wave of the future. We're living 59 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: in the brave new world, that is the future we 60 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: all envisioned from like science fiction, the Age of Adam. 61 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: I've heard it describe things like that, you know, it's 62 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: all very buzzy, pr driven idyllic images of you know, 63 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: housewives that can have robots making their you know, suffle 64 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: is for them. Uh, but that was just like the 65 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: pr line that was being sold. You know, there's a 66 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: lot of hidden cost in this advancement and also hidden 67 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: danger because one thing that mankind tends to do is 68 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: to plow forward, you know, hell or high water without 69 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: fully wrapping their heads around you know, the ramifications of 70 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: what they have wrought. Yeah, exactly. That's the same drive 71 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: that results in things like the double down sandwich. But 72 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: also it results in things like nuclear war. Yeah. So uh, 73 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: two sides of the same coin, I might argue, you know, 74 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: yes on one of their war on the other, and 75 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: both in their own way dangerous. But part of this, 76 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: part of this point, the reason we're talking about this 77 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: kind of like jets and esque retrofuturistic era is because 78 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: there was a great need to be the dominant force 79 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:58,119 Speaker 1: in this technology. So the US was pretty much after 80 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: like the day World War two ended, the US was 81 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: already considering how to outpace its geopolitical rivals. So construction 82 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: on this thing began in nineteen fifty one, but by 83 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty seven it had already become a huge facility, 84 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: twenty seven different buildings, all related to UM meant the 85 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: manufacturer of something called plutonium triggers, which we'll talk about 86 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,919 Speaker 1: a little bit. Uh. This facility also ran into problems 87 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: very early on nineteen fifty seven. That same year we 88 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: just mentioned, a plutonium fire occurred and it wrecked part 89 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: of the compound. One building known as Building seven seven 90 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 1: one was absolutely contaminated. Plutonium made it into the atmosphere. 91 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: All in all, Uncle Sam was looking at UM well 92 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: over eight hundred thousand dollars in damage in nineteen fifty seven. 93 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 1: Money and Nold, I think we take maybe a page 94 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: from another show we do called Ridiculous History, and looked 95 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: at the inflation calculator. Right, let's run the numbers. Okay, 96 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: So eight hundred and eighteen thousand dollars in nineteen fifty 97 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: seven is worth eight million, four thousand, three eight dollars 98 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: and thirty three cents today, So this was not inexpensive. Uh. 99 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: They also had to build accustom made on site and 100 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 1: incinerator to process all the contaminated waste. And the thing 101 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: about plutonium, which I was not aware of for a 102 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: long time, is that shavings of plutonium can also just 103 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 1: spontaneously combust Yeah, tangerous stuff. Uh. It's interesting that every 104 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: time whenever you get into stories about dealing with with 105 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: nuclear materials, you realize how many problems are created by 106 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: this technology, you know, just like every step of the way. 107 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: You know, there's so much potential for the contamination, and 108 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: then you have to create a whole new system like 109 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: this incinerator and on site way of keeping things kind 110 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: of sequestered. Otherwise, Uh, it'll get out of this ecosystem, 111 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: you know, this bubble that you've created in this facility, 112 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: and it often does because this stuff is so easily 113 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: um carried by wind and water and heart. And I 114 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: am Captain Planet. Um, Captain Planet would frown on this 115 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: type of behavior, you know. Oh yeah, this is I'm 116 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: sure this is in no small part part of the 117 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: motivation for the creation of Captain Planet. But still they 118 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: needed this technology. They needed to be the number one 119 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: player in this field, they being the U S Uncle Sam, 120 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: and so expansion continued, but problems continued as well. What 121 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: I'm saying here is the expansion of the facility continued 122 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: at a fast pace, and the expansion of problems did 123 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: the same throughout the nineteen sixties, we see issues. Just 124 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: ten years after that first plutonium fire in nineteen sixty seven, 125 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: people working at the plant find this massive stash of barrels, 126 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: like three thousand, five hundreds something barrels that are holding 127 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: lubricants and solvents that have all been contaminated with radiation. 128 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: And the workers find out, oh, this stuff has been leaking. 129 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: We don't know how how long it's been leaking, but 130 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: it's definitely in the ground now. It contaminated the soil 131 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: and the top of the soil. Remember how he said 132 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: it was important to remember this a windy plateau. The 133 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 1: top of the soil is getting scooped up in the 134 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: air and it's blowing to you know, it's traveling with wind, 135 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: which is easy and breezy for that, but it's very 136 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: bad for people who because you know, people don't deal 137 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: well with plutonium. Yeah, plutonium doesn't have a goal, doesn't 138 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: care where it goes. It's just very easily transmitted and 139 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,079 Speaker 1: it just kind of like finds its way to wherever 140 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 1: it's carried, uh, and then can create really serious problems 141 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: for the communities surrounding that. And you know, it's in 142 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: cidious to right, it can get into groundwater, and then 143 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: that you know, is a whole system in and of 144 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,599 Speaker 1: itself that can then be carried much farther than you 145 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 1: might think. And sometimes it's not even clear how far 146 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: the stuff does get carried right away, or especially if 147 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: you're not even realizing that the barrels are leaking, that 148 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: it's even being carried in the first place. And then 149 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: you can't put that genie back in the bottle at 150 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: that point. And then it's always like they call him 151 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: super fund sites or they have to clean this stuff up, 152 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 1: and that can take generations. Oh yeah, indeed, and this 153 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: is not even we haven't even gotten to one of 154 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: the biggest disasters on On May eleventh, nineteen sixty nine. 155 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: Just two years later, there was a fire in building 156 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: seven seven six and seven seven seven that would go 157 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 1: on to become the most expensive, costliest industrial accident in 158 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: the entire history of the US up to that point. Uh. 159 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: And both of these incidents, that fire and fifty seven 160 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: and that fire in nineteen sixty nine are dangerous because 161 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: plutonium is pyrophobic. Those shavings could just catch on fire. 162 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: They can spontaneously combust. It took two years just to 163 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: clean up what happened in nineteen sixty nine, or just 164 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: to clean up, you know, the wreckage of it. And 165 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: this led Congress to say, Okay, yes we want nuclear power, 166 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: Yes we want to be a nuclear capable nation, but 167 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: we gotta do something. This is dangerous. UM. We should 168 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: also point out that Congress wasn't closing the place down. 169 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,839 Speaker 1: That was considered a nonstarter at this point. Instead, they 170 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: needed to find a way to mitigate the danger, so 171 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: they approved the purchase of a buffer zone. It's like 172 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: four thousand, six hundred acres around the plant in nineteen 173 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: seventy two. So everything's fine, right, It's the shortest episode 174 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: we've ever done. The plant manufactured seventy thousand plutonium bomb 175 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: triggers for the US, and everyone is fine. The robot 176 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: made the souflet and it did not fall. Um. No, No, 177 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: there's more um that disaster. By the way, that fire 178 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: that you're referring to. UM. I believe there are some 179 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: in the field that referred to it as like the 180 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: American chernobyl um and that it could have been much 181 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: much worse than than it ultimately was. But it had 182 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: the same makings of a widespread uh. Disaster. But we're 183 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: we're gonna see it wasn't fully contained. Um here's the thing. Uh, 184 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: those leaks and all that contamination, it just continued. It 185 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: wasn't like, you know, nipped in the bud, as they say. Uh. 186 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: And eventually Rockwell International took over management of the site 187 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: from Dow Chemicals, and nearby Denver, just like the plant 188 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: was also expanding. I mean, we got to think about 189 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: what part of the country this is. Like there was 190 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: a time where this was very rural and very you know, 191 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: like few and far between in terms of like metropolitan development, 192 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: right and Denver is kind of we want to be 193 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: a major city, we want to you know, of moving 194 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: on up and all that. Um, so it was being 195 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: expanded as well. Um, and eventually these two entities would 196 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: come into closer contact. Uh. And like you said, Ben, 197 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: this really is just the beginning of the story and 198 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: the part you know before, the thing that we always said. 199 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: So we're gonna pause here for a word from our sponsors. 200 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: We're diving further into the soil of Rocky Flats. Here's 201 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: where it gets crazy. We are going to talk about 202 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,839 Speaker 1: Rocky Flats, but this is also a meta Here's where 203 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: it gets crazy moment. You may have noticed our good pal, 204 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick was a little bit, uh, a little bit 205 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: less verbose than usual. Matt has had to step out, 206 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: but he he knows this story. He is going to 207 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: be back very soon. We just wanted to let you 208 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: know that there's no no conspiracy on our end. He 209 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: just had to he had to put out of fire 210 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: real quick. Not a plutonium nuclear fire, I hope, um. 211 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, we hope that he returns before we finished 212 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: this one up. Um. So, the contamination of the Denver 213 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: area by plutonium from those fires and other sources wasn't 214 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: This is where the Chernobyl comparison comes in. Um, wasn't 215 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: reported publicly until the nineteen seventies. Yeah, that sink in 216 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: for a minute. Yeah. Now, of course, of course, locals 217 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 1: in the area know about these problems, and it employs 218 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: a lot of people, right there are people who worked 219 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: there for decades. But when we say the public, we 220 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: mean the general American public, like somebody in Missouri or 221 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: somebody in Seattle or what have you. Uh, this begins 222 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: to spark an acrimonious and very public argument, and it 223 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: culminates in a kind of a series of alleged conspiracies. First, 224 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: let's introduce John Lipsky. In John Lipsky is an FBI 225 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: agent who leads a raid on the Rocky Flats nuclear 226 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: weapons plant in Colorado after the FBI gets reports that 227 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: say this thing is a huge public health risk. And 228 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: John Lipsky really sticks to his guns on this one. 229 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: He is he is motivated by what he sees as 230 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: a great danger too innocent people. The raid, like when 231 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: you picture a raid, usually picture really quick kicked door 232 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: and it's like one and done and it's over and 233 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: thirty minutes or something like the action part of it. 234 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: But this raid took eighteen days. There were more than 235 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: a hundred FBI and EPA officials, and then it sparked 236 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: a three year criminal investigation into widespread contamination all over 237 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: the place, not just the site but the surrounding suburbs 238 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: of Enver. And even this rate itself is like home 239 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: to a conspiracy theory. People are saying that the Department 240 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: of Energy got a heads up that they were going 241 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: to get raided. And there was a former employee I 242 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: saw quoted who said, look, this is a place where 243 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: there were armed security guards. We wanted to protect the 244 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: nuclear material. So if we didn't know they were coming, 245 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: those agents would have been met with automatic weapons and 246 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: some people would have died. So we don't know the 247 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: extent of like cooperation between the d o E and 248 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: the FBI in that raid. But whatever they found, even 249 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: if it was and they found a lot of egregious stuff, 250 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: but even if it was already kind of covered up, um, 251 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: it was enough that it was enough that the d 252 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: o J Department of Justice looked at it and they said, 253 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: we are assembling a special grand jury to investigate the 254 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: evidence against Pool working for the government, and against Rockwell International. 255 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: That's the private defense contractor we mentioned just a second ago. 256 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: They managed the site from seventy five to nine. The 257 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: site stopped making plutonium triggers at that point. Um. When 258 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: they went to court, Rockwell pled guilty to some stuff 259 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: subcounts and negligence. They paid a fine. They paid eighteen 260 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: point five million dollars. That might not sound like a lot, 261 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: but at the time it was the biggest environmental penalty ever. 262 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: Well again with the inflation calculator, I mean, that's like, 263 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: you know, I'm probably close to thirty forty million, thirty 264 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: eight million, You're not far off. Inflation is a hell 265 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: of a thing, and it's a kind of a dice roll. 266 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: Um it's been Do you have a sense from the 267 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: documents that are available publicly, like where what was the 268 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: origin of the negligence? You know lately just not monitoring 269 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: these barrels, just not having a good sense of what 270 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: was going on in different parts of the plant. I mean, 271 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: because again we know that this was the early days 272 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: of like EPA regulation. Was it provable that they like 273 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: broke some kind of like really codified statutes that they 274 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: were supposed to be sticking to. I'm just interested in. Yeah, this, 275 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 1: so they were at the very least cutting a lot 276 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: of corners, and uh, the the typical accusation would be 277 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: that they were putting profits over people. Um, they weren't 278 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: doing due diligence when they were cleaning up this stuff, 279 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: that they were illegally dumping things in places where the 280 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: public was unaware of it but could still be affected, 281 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,640 Speaker 1: you know, as you referred to earlier, the water contamination, 282 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: the soil contamination. These are serious things I think stick out, 283 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 1: stick around for a long long time. So they do 284 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: plead guilty to some stuff and the case gets settled 285 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: in this plea bargain with that fine, but Agent Lipski 286 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: is certain they're not telling the full story. They're not 287 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: talking about the full extent of the contamination and the 288 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 1: full extent of their crimes. Also, the Department of Justice 289 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: ultimately sealed the findings from that grand jury Yanks. So 290 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: my question is almost moved. I mean, we know, we 291 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: know a few things based on what they did cop to, 292 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,919 Speaker 1: but a plea deal is always so interesting to me 293 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 1: because it lets people off the hook for a lot 294 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: of stuff because they have the power to give the 295 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: investigating body something else that they want, you know. Um, 296 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: And it's a little bit of a quid pro quos 297 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 1: situation that doesn't really result in justice being carried out. Yeah, 298 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,479 Speaker 1: unfortunately that that is something that's in the cards in 299 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: some of these situations. And Lipsky, as we said, is 300 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: not satisfied with this. Uh, he eventually leaves. He resigns 301 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: early from the FBI because as a result of this, 302 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 1: he is not alone in his allegations either. There are 303 00:18:55,119 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: people like Dr Leroy Moore, a Boulder theologian, and S. McKinley, 304 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 1: who is the foreman on that grand jury, and then 305 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: later was involved more often in Colorado politics. These folks 306 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: all agree that there's more to the story. In fact, 307 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: McKinley goes on to quote John Lipsky in a book 308 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: he co authors called The Ambushed Grand Jury. It's written 309 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: with a lawyer named Karen Balcony, and they are absolutely 310 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 1: like they're mapping out the cover up and the conspiracy. 311 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: And the book opens with an excerpt from a letter 312 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 1: John Lipsky wrote to Congress in two thousand one. It's 313 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: an open letter. Um, we've got an excerpt here, and 314 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: it sounds like the stuff of cinema. It sounds incredibly dramatic, 315 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: and it also sounds incredibly sincere. And no always thinking 316 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 1: maybe we could just just read the first part of 317 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: this letter absolutely quote. I am an FBI agent. My 318 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: superiors have ordered me to lie about a criminal investigation 319 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: I headed in nineteen eighty nine. We were investigating the 320 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 1: U s Department of Energy, but the US Justice Department 321 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: covered up the truth. Yeah. He goes on to say, 322 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: I have refused to follow the orders to lie about 323 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: what really happened during that criminal investigation Rocky Flats nuclear 324 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: weapons plants. Instead, I have told the author of this 325 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 1: book the truth. Her promise to me if I told 326 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 1: her what really happened was that she would put it 327 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: in a book to tell Congress and the American people. 328 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: Some dangerous decisions are now being made based on that 329 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: cover up. And again, because of the sealed documents, there's 330 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: really no way to verify these claims that this this 331 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 1: this guy is making. And we know he was there, 332 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 1: We know he was really involved. We also know he'd 333 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: probably have an ax to grind it, would be pissed 334 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: about the way it turned out, uh, and would have 335 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: good reason to kind of sling mud um. But I, 336 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: I don't know. It seems it seems, uh, pretty likely 337 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: that what he is saying is true. What do you think? Yeah, 338 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: I I am team Lipsky on this one because we 339 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: do even though it was sealed, we do know the 340 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: broad strokes of the jury's findings and reports because it 341 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: was leaked to West World magazine and they published They 342 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: started publishing about it in in late September, and what 343 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: they found was that the Special Grand Jury had put 344 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: together indictments charging three officials at the Department of Energy, 345 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: five employees at Rockwell with environmental crimes, and they also 346 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: wrote a report that that was intended to reach the 347 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: public in the US and abroad, that that stuff got sealed, 348 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: And this is where we see a lot of the 349 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: origin of the allegations here for cover up locals. Various 350 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:59,360 Speaker 1: scientists studying the area confirmed the contamination spread further than 351 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 1: most folks might have imagined. It's like as far back 352 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: as seventy two. You see folks like radiochemist Edward Martel 353 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: saying quote this from a study he co published in 354 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 1: the more densely populated areas of Denver, where he notes 355 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: the plutonium contamination just east of the Rocky Flats plant 356 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: ranges up to hundreds of times that from nuclear tests, 357 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: meaning that if you are in this area in nineteen 358 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: seventy two, it's more dangerous than being in an area 359 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: after a nuclear test, which bodys mind. Yeah and again again, 360 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: you know we it's hard to clean this stuff up. 361 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: It's harder even maybe than like cleaning up an oil spill, 362 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: which we know is really hard, because this stuff is 363 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: like a lot harder to detect. It's not just like 364 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: a material that you can see with your eyes and 365 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: you stuff to soak it up. Um it requires years 366 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: of mitigation. I mean you know, I think I've talked 367 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: about in the past that you know, when I was 368 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: a beat reporter for Georgia Public Broadcasting, I would do 369 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: nuclear stories because of where I was. We had like 370 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: the Savannah Riverside and um plan of Vogel and Savannah 371 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: Riverside is considered a super fun site because they would 372 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: store all this legacy nuclear waste from the manufacturer of 373 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons. And it is a site that the scientists 374 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: are continuing to monitor over the years. This is a 375 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: project that's been in the works for decades and they 376 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: have to monitor the wildlife. They tag these like turtles 377 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,120 Speaker 1: another native species and release them and then they picked 378 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 1: them back up and take them to measure them with 379 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: like Geiger counters to make sure that their radiation levels 380 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: are like dropping. Um, it's really hard once you let 381 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: this stuff out into the environment. Yeah, it is. It 382 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: is immensely difficult, and there's not really a safe fast 383 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: way to do it right. You're looking at a you know, 384 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: you're looking at a timeline that extends for decades. So 385 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: Lipsky and others who alleged this cover up, and again 386 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: I'm biased them very much on their side in the situation. 387 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: They start, they continue raising alarms, waving those red flags 388 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 1: about the danger to locals. And Salon picks up on 389 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: this and they wrote a great article in two thousand five, 390 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: which you can read online and excerpt here. We'll give 391 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: us a picture of what the critics are saying. Uh. 392 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: The critics say that the d o E wanted to 393 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 1: keep the public in the dark to cut corners on cost, 394 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 1: not to mention protect itself from criticism for environmental negligence. 395 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: The department allocated seven billion dollars to the clean up, 396 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: and that was a sum initially criticized as far too 397 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 1: low to enable a thorough job, they say. And then 398 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: they also point out at least the critics say that 399 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: less than eight percent of the allocated seven billion dollars 400 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: there is being used to actually decontaminate the site. The 401 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 1: rest of it's going to admin cost and decommissioning cost. Dude, 402 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: that I mean, seriously, maybe just don't spill the toxic 403 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 1: waste in the first place. Maybe just like know what 404 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: you're getting into and not have to commission billions of 405 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: dollars to maybe clean up your mess. Yeah, exactly. It 406 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 1: just seems so wasteful becauseidering how penny pinching governments can 407 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 1: be with this kind of money and how they won't 408 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: spend money on like education for kids and stuff, but 409 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: yet they'll spend a billion dollars to clean up something 410 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: they caused. It makes me, I'm sorry, it makes me 411 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: very very mad. Yeah. This this also affects the employees 412 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: of the Rocky Flat site. They've gone public with stories 413 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 1: that say things like, um, the clean up purposely excluded 414 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: known dumping grounds. They've also questioned the methods used to 415 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: decontaminate the area or even to measure contamination. I want 416 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: to introduce another person mentioned in that Salon article, Jackie Brev. 417 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: Jackie was a long term employee at Rocky Flats. She 418 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: was working in what are called the hot areas where 419 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: there's a risk of exposure, and she is one of 420 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: the many folks who have tragically developed cancers that are 421 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 1: typically tied to long term exposure to radiation. And in 422 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 1: her case, she said it was incredibly difficult for her 423 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: to get financial assistance because some of the key records 424 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: that prove her exposure had been her words here suppressed. 425 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: You mean, like in the sealed documents that we're talking 426 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 1: about earlier. Yeah, kind of like saying, hey, uh, you 427 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: have no evidence that you have no evidence that Rocky 428 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: Flats is the cause of what's happened to you. And 429 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 1: then you say, I do have evidence, you just won't 430 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: let anybody see it. And they say, well, it's sealed, 431 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: so we're in that folder over there. Bro No, not 432 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: that one sealed, sealed, science, sealed, delivered. Uh, not yours anymore. Jesus, 433 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 1: it's so weird. And so I want to see what 434 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: I want to see what everybody thinks about this. Because 435 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: the legal battles continue. There was a class action lawsuit, 436 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: a huge class action lawsuit called Cooke versus Rockwell International, 437 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: and was filed in January against Rockwell and against thal Chemical. 438 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, I didn't know this, but nuclear contractors have 439 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 1: a kind of indemnity baked in in this country, which 440 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 1: means that the class action lawsuit, any fees associated with 441 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: that would be paid by the federal government, not paid 442 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: by those folks, specifically dow In Rockwell. Cool. Yeah, you're 443 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: gonna feel great after this one. So so this legal 444 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 1: battle goes on and on and on, and eventually the 445 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: plaintiffs who are the plaintiffs are like thirteen to fifteen 446 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: thousand property owners. Uh. They are eventually awarded nine hundred 447 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,400 Speaker 1: and twenty six million dollars in punitive and economic damages. UH. 448 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: There's another approval for a three hundred and seventy five 449 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: million dollars settlement in May of UH. And it goes 450 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: on and on, but things come to a head. In September, 451 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals reverses that six million 452 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: dollar decision, and then two years later, the Supreme Court 453 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: declines to hear the case. So if you think there's 454 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: a cover up, this sort of stuff looks a lot 455 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: like a smoking gun, right, Like the Supreme Court is 456 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: not going to listen to you. You get, you get 457 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: an award and class action lawsuit, but then that gets 458 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: thrown out on a procedural thing by the way, um, 459 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: which is you know, people don't know often when a 460 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: case is thrown out on appeal, it's because of a 461 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: procedural thing, not because they said some of those evil 462 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: or whatever chain of custody you know, was broken in 463 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: handling evidence or whatever like something some technicality you could 464 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: call it, which is just infuriating, But it is often 465 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: the case with you know, instances of corporate or government 466 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: mouth seasons, you know, where the public health is concerned. Um. 467 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: Plenty of studies have shown a connection. One one would argue, 468 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: you know, at the very least excessive rates of cancer, 469 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: birth defects, and other chronic health problems among local residents. 470 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: But for some reason or somehow like the idea of 471 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: direct link to Rocky Flats has never been conclusively established. 472 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: But I don't know, it just seems like semantics to me. 473 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: You know, I don't know, Ben, what do you think? Yeah, 474 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: there's a there, there's a lot to unpack here you 475 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: and everything you said, I completely agree with. Uh. We're 476 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: gonna pause for a word from our sponsor, and when 477 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: we come back, we'll also have a special returning guest. 478 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: And we have returned. We have returned. Uh, not just 479 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: not just with Nolan, Ben, but with our guests, a 480 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: returning guest, Matt. We called you earlier. Okay, it's our 481 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: show anyway. No, we just uh, we just let people 482 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: know that you had a fire drill that you had 483 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: to step away from. Uh. But I'm really glad you 484 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,479 Speaker 1: made it back on this episode, and Nol you pointed 485 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: out something awesome. We're on break, we're not. I. It's 486 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: just true, Matt. You may have dodged a depression bullet here. Well, 487 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: I'm aware of the material, so I am feeling it already, 488 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: And just for our drinking drinking game purposes, the nature 489 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 1: of my fire drill had to do with my wife, 490 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: who I learned a lot from there. We go, Lily 491 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: from the well, you got here, you got back in 492 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: time for the cancer. Matt, there's that. Uh So we 493 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: talked about we We've talked about the legal battles that 494 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: were occurring. We've talked about the mission of folks like 495 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: former FBI agent John Lipsky, and we've also explored some 496 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: of the disasters that occurred across the history of the 497 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: plant site. But now we're we're at the point where 498 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: we have to talk about the numerous locals and former 499 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: employees of Rocky Flats who say exposure to this very dangerous, 500 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: nasty stuff that was not ever quite handled correctly. They 501 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: say it is given them excessive rates of cancer, birth defects, 502 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: other medical conditions. And there is a lot of dispute 503 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: right now about the veracity of all those claims, because 504 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: you will see that studies don't agree. Some studies do 505 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 1: indicate higher rates of cancer amongst former employees. Other studies say, 506 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: you can't establish a direct link, and I want to 507 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: see what we think about this, because just to pull 508 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: one study, this is instructive for us to ask ourselves 509 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: about sources. One study from the Colorado Department of Public 510 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 1: Health and Environments Cancer Registry said after two assessments one 511 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: they said, quote, the incident of all cancers combined for 512 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: both adults and children was no different in the community 513 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: surrounding Rocky Flats than would be expected based on cancer 514 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: rates and the remainder of the Denver metro area from 515 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: so they say, you know, they couldn't find a solid 516 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: quantitative link or correlation here. But if you're someone who 517 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: believes that not only was there a cover up, but 518 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: that the cover up continues today, you gotta question the source. 519 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: It reminds me of of, you know, the city and 520 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: Russia that continues to mind asbestos and the studies that 521 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: were sanctioned by the government there that indicate that as no, 522 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: don't worry about cancer. It's fine, let's just keep the 523 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: asbestos coming um. And there is a vice piece where 524 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: the reporter, you know, was kind of shut out by 525 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: the organization that did those kind of government sanction studies. 526 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: So this feels like that to me, where it's like, 527 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: of course, the government of Colorado. Maybe not of course, 528 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: but something like the Colorado Department of Health. It's it's 529 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 1: an agency tied to the federal government in a sense, 530 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: and it would make sense they might be on board, yes, 531 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: but it doesn't explain the varying results that come back 532 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: when soil is sampled at numerous places. Is in Rocky Flats, 533 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: consider reporting coming out of k U n C, the 534 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: NPR station in Northern Colorado UH in n there was 535 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: a statement put out by the Colorado Department of Public 536 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: Health and Environment that said one of the soil samples 537 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,879 Speaker 1: had an elevated level of plutonium UH and that again 538 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:25,399 Speaker 1: this is twenty nineteen. And then upon further testing, because 539 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: they asked for another twenty five samples after those came back, UH, 540 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: they all they all tested at three pico curies per gram, 541 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: which is below the clean up standard of fifty pico 542 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: curies program. So it's it is weird that one random 543 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 1: sample out of twenty five comes back as highly elevated 544 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 1: in plutonium, but then all the further testing is fine. 545 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: It just makes you wonder if they're tiny spots, you know, 546 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: tiny pockets that still have elevated levels of plutonium, little 547 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: hot pocket Plutonium's right. Well, but I mean that's that's 548 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:03,800 Speaker 1: sort of the issue we've been talking about all along. 549 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: This stuff is really hard to pin down, you know, 550 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,240 Speaker 1: because it's insidious. I mean, it doesn't like affect everything 551 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,359 Speaker 1: the same way, but if it affects if, if it's 552 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 1: if there's any amount of it within a given area, 553 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 1: then it can be really really dangerous. So it's such 554 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,879 Speaker 1: a problem to like really zero in and find it. Uh, 555 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: And it probably makes it easy to kind of, you know, 556 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 1: juke the stats as well, Oh we did we we 557 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: did enough, we did enough samples. See, we're fine. But 558 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:32,719 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that you caught it all because you 559 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: don't know exactly where all it goes. It kind of 560 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 1: just goes where it's taken. You could also, you know, 561 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:42,279 Speaker 1: i'd also draw an analogy to fire. Um, if you 562 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 1: walk into a field that is on fire, you will 563 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: know what's on you will know what's on fire probably 564 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: before you get there, and you will be conscious of 565 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 1: being harmed. But if you walk into a place that 566 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 1: is irradiated. You're you're not gonna know for a while 567 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: unless you have the right equipment or unless uh. The 568 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: what I'm saying is the threshold for you to immediately know, hey, 569 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: something is wrong. That that threshold is much higher than 570 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 1: the threshold at which you will be harmed by contamination. 571 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 1: You can get contaminated, you will not know. Similar to 572 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 1: his best this as well, uh, and there will be 573 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: long tail consequences. So yes, this is this is dangerous stuff. 574 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: The e p A went out and I think it 575 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: was two thousand seven, they said, okay, are clean up 576 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 1: of Rocky Flats is complete, so therefore we don't need 577 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: to continue monitoring for contamination. And now if you go 578 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: to the area, the physical remains of the plant are 579 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: long gone. It has two distinct It's divided into two 580 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: distinct places. Now there's one called the CEU, or Central 581 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: Operable Unit. This includes like the hot radioactive beating heart 582 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: the site. It's off limits. It's a super fun site. 583 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: Its own and managed by the d OE Department of Energy. 584 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: And then there's the refuge, the wildlife Refuge, how adorable. 585 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: The Rocky Flats National Wildlife Refuge is owned by the 586 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: US Fish and Wildlife Service. So part of this, yes, 587 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: dangerous nuclear site. Don't go, but pretty much across the street, 588 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 1: go hang out with the animals, Go frolic you know 589 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 1: what I mean. Smell that fresh, fresh, sparkly air. So 590 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,839 Speaker 1: if the clean up really was done with the due 591 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: diligence required, and if it is complete, then theoretically there 592 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: should be not much to worry about with this refuge. 593 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: You should be able to go out and walk the 594 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: trails or go there on a field trip, etcetera. But 595 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: the problem is people are convinced that clean up was incomplete, 596 00:37:55,640 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: whether through incompetence, whether through purposeful um purposeful downplane to 597 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: avoid pr disasters, and they'll tell you that the area 598 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: is not safe for the public. We had a lot 599 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:12,399 Speaker 1: of listeners right in or communicate regarding this, and we 600 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 1: also had UM. We also read a great deal of 601 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:23,360 Speaker 1: the of the ongoing efforts to like ongoing efforts to 602 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,359 Speaker 1: close down the refuge as recently as November of last year. 603 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: The thing is, even if those buildings that were part 604 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: of the site are not there, the legacy of Rocky 605 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: Flats nuclear past remains. And if you don't think the 606 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 1: clean up was complete, if you think there was a 607 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 1: cover up of the clean up. Then the idea of 608 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 1: this contamination becomes a lot like a ghost. It's like 609 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:52,320 Speaker 1: you bulldoze the house, but the ghost remains. And the 610 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:56,800 Speaker 1: lawyer we mentioned earlier, Balcony made some really powerful points 611 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:01,839 Speaker 1: about this problem, and essentially she's saying it's bigger than 612 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,320 Speaker 1: just Colorado. It's bigger than the spot fifteen miles away 613 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: from Denver, the Rocky Flats clean up, she says, could 614 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,759 Speaker 1: be used to fuel, which she characterizes as a myth 615 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:19,359 Speaker 1: that nuclear waste can be safely handled. So coming up 616 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 1: plutonium playground on the way to you is what she's saying. 617 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: That's fun, that's fun. Literation too bad. Um. Also, I 618 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: have to say some of the terms in nuclear are 619 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,319 Speaker 1: very interesting. I love the idea of a super fun 620 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: site because every time I hear it, it sounds like 621 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,800 Speaker 1: you're saying super fun, which also sounds like a playground 622 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 1: kind of situation. Think that's a super fun site. I 623 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 1: was thinking of the super Friends as well. YEA, also true. Yeah, 624 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 1: it's true. That's the thing I mean, there is there 625 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:57,240 Speaker 1: There are certainly ways of handling nuclear material more safely 626 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,399 Speaker 1: and trying to contain it. But the problem is once 627 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,360 Speaker 1: it really gets out of that containment area and into 628 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 1: the environment, then, as we know, it's like playing whack 629 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,720 Speaker 1: them all, you know, like you just you never really 630 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 1: really know like in a in a reasonable amount of time, 631 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: if you've gotten them all, gotten it all, you know. Uh. 632 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 1: And that's why it requires constant testing and funding for 633 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 1: years and years and years just to be able to 634 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,799 Speaker 1: say we think we got it all, we still might 635 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:35,399 Speaker 1: not have She has Balcany had this great quotation where 636 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: she sums up the situation. She says, quote, I believe 637 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:40,840 Speaker 1: the main goal of the d o J and the 638 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 1: new industry of rocky flats is greenwashing. It helps both 639 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 1: nuclear powers and the nuclear weapons industries to convince people 640 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,799 Speaker 1: that industries and governments can deal with their waste in 641 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: a safe way. That's tough, because the world does need 642 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: to have nuclear energy. You can't really walk it back 643 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:03,760 Speaker 1: at this point. Um, if everybody dismantled all of their nukes, 644 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 1: which has been you know, the goal of activists for 645 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 1: a long time, then you know what's going to happen 646 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: the next week is those same countries, some of them 647 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 1: are gonna start racing to be the only country that 648 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,360 Speaker 1: has nukes now right, the world is in That's what 649 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 1: That's what Matt is mutually sued destruction is really like 650 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 1: the old scene in Westerns where there's a standoff and 651 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 1: three people are pointing guns at each other, or the 652 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: Spider Man's are all pointing at each other like no, 653 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,839 Speaker 1: you're I'm Spiderman, You're you know, that's what's happening. There 654 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 1: are a lot of anti nuclear activists in general, but 655 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,920 Speaker 1: to be clear, this situation is different. This is about 656 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:45,800 Speaker 1: an alleged multi generational, decades long cover up, and honestly, 657 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,680 Speaker 1: it looks pretty plausible. That's just my take. It does 658 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:55,879 Speaker 1: look like I want to offer not a counterpoint to it, 659 00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 1: but uh a way to think about the real risk 660 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 1: to human life here. And it kind of it goes 661 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,239 Speaker 1: back to that k U n C article of the 662 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 1: mp NPR article that I mentioned earlier, and it comes 663 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 1: in the form of a statement from Lindsay Masters, who 664 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: is an environmental protection specialist who works at the Colorado 665 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 1: Department of Public Health and Environment. She notes, after crunching 666 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 1: the numbers of you know, possible exposure over time, that quote, 667 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: if you lived at Rocky Flats for thirteen years thirteen years, 668 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 1: and the soil everywhere had plutonium concentrations of twenty peco 669 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 1: curies pergram, your risk of cancer would only increase by 670 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:45,239 Speaker 1: about one in one hundred thousand, and one in one 671 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,400 Speaker 1: hundred thousand isn't necessarily a bet that you know, you 672 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,440 Speaker 1: want to take when it comes to, ah, you know, 673 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 1: something with such a high mortality rate as cancer. But 674 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,399 Speaker 1: the messed up thing that Masters points out is that 675 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,920 Speaker 1: we all have a normal average risk of getting cancer 676 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:06,719 Speaker 1: of about every human being on the planet has a 677 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:08,799 Speaker 1: one in three chance of getting cancer at some point 678 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,800 Speaker 1: in their life. So to that point, though, Matt, it 679 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:16,400 Speaker 1: also makes the stats hard to kind of dig into, 680 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,520 Speaker 1: you know, because that's pretty high, wouldn't you say, Yeah, 681 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: one in one in three chance of getting cancer. So 682 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: unless like you know, everyone in the surrounding area gets cancer, 683 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 1: like within a year, it's really hard to dig through 684 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:36,279 Speaker 1: that data and draw a correlation, you know, or or causation. Yeah, 685 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 1: there's some I would almost call it forensic work you 686 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: can do, because, as we've said before, cancer is a 687 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,680 Speaker 1: group term, it's an umbrella phrase. Not all cancers are 688 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,080 Speaker 1: the same, not all not all cancers are created equal, 689 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 1: which is why there hasn't to this point been a 690 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:58,759 Speaker 1: curl a panacea for things described as cancer. But what 691 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:03,520 Speaker 1: you can do is correlate certain types of cancer to 692 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:08,000 Speaker 1: certain causes right the same way that the same way 693 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 1: that in the world of abestus, there are medical conditions 694 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,799 Speaker 1: that the vast majority of the time occur because of 695 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: his bestess exposure. They're they're even in the name of 696 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:22,360 Speaker 1: the condition. So you can do that with certain types 697 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: of cancer as well. But we also have to remember 698 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: that this these measurements, there's a lot of solid work 699 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:35,000 Speaker 1: done to try to account for various other environmental factors, 700 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,440 Speaker 1: but these measurements are not taking place in a lab 701 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,680 Speaker 1: in a you know, in a clinically controlled environment. People 702 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 1: are exposed to a lot of other stuff too. That's 703 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,680 Speaker 1: that's part of the issue here. But the only way 704 00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:55,280 Speaker 1: to reach those conclusions is to do some serious long 705 00:44:55,480 --> 00:45:01,319 Speaker 1: term measurement and monitoring. And that's tricky because as the 706 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,879 Speaker 1: results can sink from the news. People like quick solutions. 707 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,840 Speaker 1: They're like quick conclusions, you know. They like they like 708 00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,239 Speaker 1: feeling like it's, um, I've spent five minutes, so I 709 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,320 Speaker 1: pretty much got it, you know, and everything else should 710 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 1: conform to my opinion afterwards. But that's not the case. 711 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 1: It gets really complicated in the minds of people who 712 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,920 Speaker 1: are opposed to this refuge approach. The issue, it's bigger 713 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 1: than wrap. The issue is the tragic multigenerational contamination not 714 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,680 Speaker 1: just of one area, but of multiple areas in the future. 715 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,040 Speaker 1: If this works, if there is indeed to cover up 716 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,160 Speaker 1: in the full extent of the damage is not addressed 717 00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:46,080 Speaker 1: the way. Like Lipski has pointed out, what could stop 718 00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,920 Speaker 1: the US government from taking this approach with other nuclear 719 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,640 Speaker 1: waste sites. We started today's episode saying, what what is 720 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 1: Rocky Flats? Why should I care? Here's why you should care. 721 00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,960 Speaker 1: It's easy to ignore these sorts of issues if they 722 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,440 Speaker 1: are far away from you, but you have to ask yourself, 723 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,920 Speaker 1: how comfortable would you be knowing that your kids local 724 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,560 Speaker 1: playground that you go to every day or every weekend 725 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,839 Speaker 1: used to be a toxic waste dump. And you've got 726 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,880 Speaker 1: a little paper everybody in your neighborhood got got a 727 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: little thing in the mail saying it's fine. Is that 728 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,839 Speaker 1: enough for you? Because it's not enough for me. I'll 729 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,920 Speaker 1: just be very clear about that. Yeah or yeah, my 730 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,600 Speaker 1: son would not be playing there. But but again like it, 731 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,640 Speaker 1: Oh it's messed up because of very well could be fine, 732 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,640 Speaker 1: but I don't have the time to go run sample 733 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:40,320 Speaker 1: tests two or fifty soil sample tests at a playground. 734 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:46,200 Speaker 1: And also this is not to say that everybody in 735 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:50,759 Speaker 1: these alphabet agencies we've mentioned is like part of some 736 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,120 Speaker 1: grand conspiracy. But when you hear people say there is 737 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,719 Speaker 1: a cover up, want you know that they're not just 738 00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,279 Speaker 1: saying that for attention. They're not just may king that 739 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:06,560 Speaker 1: out of some desire to improvise fiction. They are they 740 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:11,000 Speaker 1: are basing this on some very troubling things, and as 741 00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,759 Speaker 1: recently as last year, efforts to close down the refuge continue. 742 00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,800 Speaker 1: At this point, we pass it to you, fellow conspiracy realists. 743 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,160 Speaker 1: What do you think? How safe can pay places like 744 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,600 Speaker 1: this be over the long term? Could there be even 745 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 1: more stuff they don't want you to know about Rocky Flats. 746 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,359 Speaker 1: We have a lot of proponents of nuclear technology in 747 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,480 Speaker 1: the crowd today, uh, so I'd love to hear that 748 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:37,280 Speaker 1: view as well. Uh. We also wanted to thank again 749 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,600 Speaker 1: just the many many people who have written in with 750 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,920 Speaker 1: their own accounts of Rocky Flats. I particularly want to 751 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,880 Speaker 1: shout out logistical q I, who has written to us 752 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:51,760 Speaker 1: about this several times, talked about UM, talked about activist 753 00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:55,400 Speaker 1: groups like the Rocky Flats, down Winders, so the people 754 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:59,040 Speaker 1: who get exposed to plutonium when it blows into the sky, 755 00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:03,120 Speaker 1: and just some just some great stuff that you sent us. 756 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,600 Speaker 1: So thank you so much, and thank you to everyone else. 757 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:07,799 Speaker 1: We can't wait to hear your thoughts. We try to 758 00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,160 Speaker 1: be easy to find online. Consider how you can find 759 00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:14,000 Speaker 1: us online under the handle conspiracy Stuff on Twitter, Facebook, 760 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,959 Speaker 1: and YouTube. You can also join our Facebook group. Here's 761 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,000 Speaker 1: where it gets crazy. If you want to find us 762 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,600 Speaker 1: on Instagram, you can search for the handle conspiracy Stuff Show. 763 00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:25,680 Speaker 1: If you want to stay away from social media and 764 00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:29,000 Speaker 1: instead use your phone for its intended purpose, do it 765 00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,239 Speaker 1: call us one eight three three st d w y 766 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,960 Speaker 1: t K. You have three minutes to leave a message. 767 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:38,440 Speaker 1: Please give yourself a cool code name whenever you want 768 00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: it to be. Bonus points if you make us laugh 769 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:44,000 Speaker 1: with it and your message in general. Uh, say whatever 770 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,080 Speaker 1: you'd like, but it is very important that you give 771 00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,800 Speaker 1: us permission to use both your name and your voice 772 00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:51,879 Speaker 1: message on the air. If you've got more to say 773 00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,880 Speaker 1: than can fit in that three minutes. Why not instead 774 00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,080 Speaker 1: consider sending us a good old fashioned email. We are 775 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:20,719 Speaker 1: conspiracy yet. I heart radio dot com stuff they don't 776 00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,280 Speaker 1: want you to know is a production of I heart Radio. 777 00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:25,840 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i 778 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,840 Speaker 1: heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 779 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:29,680 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.