WEBVTT - On the Run 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:05.280 Ka boom. If you've thought more hours a day, minutes 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:08.520 a week was enough, I think again. He's the last 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.240 remnants of the old republic, a sole fashion of fairness. 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:15.320 He treats crackheads in the ghetto cutter the same as 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:19.400 the rich pill poppers in the penthouse, to clearing house 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:23.160 of hot takes, break free for something special. The Fifth 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:27.360 Hour with Ben Maller starts right now that it does 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:30.640 the weekend kicks off in a podcast. I'm actually excited 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:33.559 about this one. Now. Usually I pretend I feign excitement, 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:36.320 but I'm excited about this one. Well come in the 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:41.480 beginning of another addition of the Fifth Hour, because four 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:45.240 hours a night on the overnight or not enough? Not enough. 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:47.280 We do this eight days a week. This is the 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:51.440 Friday Podcast. We attempt every week to scour the sporting 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:55.160 world to talk to people that we're interested in, or 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:58.120 people we like, our old radio friends, people all on 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:00.800 those lines. Occasionally we even have listeners. On last week, 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:05.440 j Scooped, the famous p one from Seattle, was on 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:08.959 our show talking about the song that he and Just 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:13.160 Josh put together for our overnight show. So we're excited 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:17.360 about that. We are joined yet again by David Gascon 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:20.520 from West of the four oh five, who's getting the 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:24.319 full He's getting the full fifth hour experience this weekend, 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:31.480 because we'll talk more about Gascon's rather marginal performance marginal 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:34.480 as a producer on the show this week. But you're 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:38.160 you're near not living my life, Gascon, having to do 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:41.160 the overnight show and then come right back and have 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:44.040 a little podcast fun in the salt mine here. Yeah, 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.480 I race home, try to sleep for a few hours, 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:50.480 wake up trying to cook something, and then speed my 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:54.000 ass into heavy traffic back to the studio. But welcome 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:56.760 to my world. I'm I'm excited for this one too, 0:01:57.000 --> 0:01:59.800 especially because we do so much in the gaming world. 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:04.000 Uh not necessary, you know, with one particular sport, but 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:07.040 I'm always fascinated with the way that things have gone. 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:11.040 We were talking about bullshit calls, bad calls. I mean, 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:13.920 you know the infamous call in the NFC Championship game 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:18.240 with the Rams a few years ago, Um a blow. Well, 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:20.600 I was a great call in the NFC Championship game. 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:22.920 Let me stop you right there. But you're referring if 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:25.280 you haven't if you've cheated, or if you haven't cheated 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:28.359 and looked at the headline on the on the podcast 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:30.160 we are chatting, we're gonna have here in a couple 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:33.440 of minutes, Tim Donnighy is gonna join us. He is 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:37.480 one of the more infamous figures in American sport UH 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:39.280 and the NBA fish. If you don't know his story, 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:41.400 I'll give you the truncated version here. So he was 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:45.320 a referee from the mid nineties to two thousand seven. 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:49.000 The reason he stopped being a referee is because the 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:55.400 FBI opened an investigation that they were investigating sports wagering. 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:59.000 The mob was entire it was involved in this. Uh. 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:03.600 Tim Donnie was betting on NBA games and he was 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:07.720 officiating those NBA games, and it was a huge scandal, 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:11.600 although the NBA for the most part, was able to 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:15.639 sweep it under the rug. It's a fascinating crisis management 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:19.600 story with David Sarn's NBA, the late commissioner, and they 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:22.280 will talk to him about this, but they said he 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:24.160 was the lone wolf. He was the only one doing it, 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.920 when there's anecdotal evidence that there were plenty of referees 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:30.239 that we're doing. Maybe not the exact same thing Tim 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:33.840 Donnie did, but similar activity there in those days and 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:35.320 it all just kind of went away in the NBA 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:37.760 media said, Okay, you know, they said, this happened, that's 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.920 all that happened. That's it, no more investigation and uh, 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:42.960 and we just moved on. It was wild. Well, it's 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:45.720 the extentire right because you always say the the NFL 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:51.920 network is tied to the NFL. It's state sponsored media media. 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:53.840 It's fascinating to me. I was thinking about this with 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:57.640 having Tim on is if you thought that maybe in 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:02.560 a situation with Tim, we're we're teams where obviously knew 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:04.880 something was going on but they didn't do anything about it. 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:07.480 Do you think the NBA would have been susceptible to 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:11.360 a class action lawsuit from gamblers because of wages loss? Well, 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:13.920 as I remember, I think there were some lawsuits that 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:17.440 were filed by season ticket holders that claimed that if 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:21.200 I remember correctly, right, yeah, like because they bought tickets, 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:23.640 it was a bad faith. Agree. You know, the NBA 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:26.719 had said that the integrity is you know, the game, 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:29.040 and there was no integrity and all that. But as 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:31.080 far as the cover up, the greatest quote all time 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:34.640 from someone in sports media that I I wrote it 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:36.880 down and I still remember to this day because it 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:39.840 was so good. When Peyton Manning was involved in a 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:42.600 steroid scandal, there was a documentary that outered him as 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:46.839 a steroid cheat, and the NFL media were fighting with 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:52.120 each other to bury the story. But Keishan Johnson, who 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:53.800 was at ESB, I guess he's back at ESPN now, 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:55.400 but he had one of the great quotes of all 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:59.960 time to to cover up and protect the almighty. Keish 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:03.080 On said of regarding Peyton Manning, he said, he didn't 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:04.960 do it. If he said he didn't do it, it 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:07.520 didn't happen, then it didn't happen. He didn't do it. 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:14.080 That's it. And Jim Nance on CBS said, it's a 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:16.680 non story on all levels, or all on all levels, 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:19.159 it's a non story something like that, And of course, 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:22.279 you know many people believe it was not a non story. 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:26.440 It was absolutely true. The Al Jazer reporting about Peyton 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:29.679 Manning and the clinic in Indianapolis. That was a great 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:33.200 doc I remember that specifically because I went on a 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:36.080 trip to Europe on vacation and you had texted me 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:39.480 the link to that story, and I watched the entire 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.640 documentary on a train ride. I was I was really 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:47.240 fuck It was riveting. And you know, I still I 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:49.279 am still in contact with a couple of people who 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:53.400 made that documentary for Al Jazeera, and there's lawsuits we've 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.560 we've wanted to get them on the podcast. I I 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:00.320 love that documentary so much and it just got completely 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:04.359 buried by the sporting world. Although that documentary, which everyone 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:07.000 said was you know, bogus and was no credibility. The 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:10.680 catcher for the Chicago Cubs to Tea Garden I think 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:13.159 was his name, something like that, Taylor Tea Garden, I 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:14.919 think that was the name. But anyway, he uh, he 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:18.279 ended up getting suspended by Major League Baseball for performance 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:22.200 adinancing drugs mostly based on that that documentary, So there 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:26.200 was credibility. And once the there's a lawsuit involving Ryan 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:30.960 Howard and Ryan Zimmermane and once that is officially settled, 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.000 We're gonna get one of these people, one of the 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:37.080 people I've been communicating with from Al Jazeero on the podcast. 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:41.400 But this about Tim Dottie, David Gascon, Tim Donnie, the 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:44.880 NBA referee, someone I'm excited. Actually a listener recommended this, 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:47.480 a p one said, hey should get Tim Donnie and 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:49.600 I said, well, that's a great idea. And I said, 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:51.719 why didn't I think of that. I mean, this is 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:54.599 a guy who I've watched these documentaries, I've read books, 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:58.480 I've read plenty of stories online about his situation. It's fascinating. 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:01.880 They've made a movie about his story. But let's welcome 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:04.520 in now. Former NB I guess you had to say 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:08.839 disgraced NBA referee to tell the story properly. All right, So, Tim, 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.000 I've been looking forward to talking to you. I am fascinating. 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:15.800 I've watched the documentaries about your story. I've read you 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.120 wrote a book, I've read a bunch of stories online 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:21.120 and all that. What is the question, though, Tim, as 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:23.200 we welcome to the podcast here, what is the question 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:27.600 that you get asked most about your story? Pretty much? 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:30.800 They want to know if I fixed games? And uh, 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:34.880 I think that's the biggest misconception out there, that I 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:37.480 went out there and put star players to the bench, 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:40.440 that a lot of these bets would win. And and 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:44.160 I always revert back to the fact that Phil Scallett, 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:47.520 who was the supervisory special agent on my case, wrote 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.040 the board for my book and said that I told 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:52.320 the truth at every turn, and and in the book, 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:54.800 I said that I didn't fix schemes. The NBA said 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:57.520 I didn't fix schemes, and in fact, the FBI came 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:00.240 out inside I didn't fix schemes. So I thinks a 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:02.560 lot of things that come out from time to time 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:05.680 about me fixing games, and it just didn't happen. The 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:07.600 thing about your story, there's a lot of it that 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:09.840 I'm fascinated by. I covered the NBA when you were 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:13.080 an official, and I remember, you know, seeing you randomly 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.080 at games over the years there, and I know you 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:18.760 don't officials as you know, being a referee. You know, 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:21.240 there's some guys that stayed out, other guys that don't 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:24.520 stayed out. But the NBA, the efforts they went to 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:29.520 sweep this under the rug. But you were the only guy, uh, 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:32.080 and they just wanted to make this all disappear. Uh. 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:35.280 Were you the only guy involved in this kind of stuff? 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.800 Definitely not, because there was a lot of other referees 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:43.920 that the FBI actually wanted to indict because they were 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:47.199 going into these games with a preconceived agenda of what 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:49.920 they were going to do, and they were discussing that 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:52.319 with uh, you know me, And that's why I was 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:56.160 able to pick these games correctly at seventy percent at 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:58.600 a time. Be sure to catch live editions of The 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:01.480 Ben Maller Show weekdays at two a m. Eastern eleven 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.160 pm Pacific. Be sure to catch live editions of The 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.400 Ben Meller Show weekdays at two am Eastern eleven pm 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:11.320 Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the I Heart Radio app. 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:14.960 It's it's fascinating and we hear this catch phrase all 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:17.600 the time, you know, integrity of the game, and every 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:21.160 sports league says it. They all use that phrase when 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:24.600 something happens. Do you think there's actually integrity in the 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:27.200 game that this phrase that gets thrown around so often. 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:30.520 I think that they like the fans. I think that 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:34.679 there's a lot of integrity into the game. I think now, uh, 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:39.240 after my situation, I think that they're doing more to 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.080 make sure there's integrity into the game and trying to 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:46.360 keep these personal relationships that exist between officials and players 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:49.440 and coaches out of it. I think this last week 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:52.800 we just sold in the NHL. There was obviously an 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:56.080 official that they fired on the spot because he was 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.400 saying that he was going to do things to one 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:01.400 of the NHL teams and um, you know, whether that 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:05.120 call was correct or incorrect. He talked about it and 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:08.160 it was something that he set out to do. So 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:11.520 I think there's, especially with a lot of the veteran 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:15.480 officials and the professional sports, Uh, there's relationships that exist, 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.080 both positive and negative, and it's they spell out onto 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:21.559 the floor. So you're the perfect guy to ask you 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:26.320 to the makeup call, which as a basketball fan you 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:28.920 watch these games are like, well, of course there's makeup calls, 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.480 but people around the NBA often will say, well, that 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:35.800 doesn't happen, that doesn't exist. Is there a makeup call? 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:38.360 To explain the makeup call when you're calling a game 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:41.760 in the NBA. Absolutely, there's a makeup call. When you 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:44.959 make a call again somebody that uh you know, you 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:49.120 may think, uh, you know, wasn't that good of a call? Uh, 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:51.560 And somebody comes over to you and you discuss it 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:53.199 with them, and they say, you know, yellow me one. 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:56.080 You know, obviously you feel bad that you made a 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:58.600 poor call against them, and you want to make sure 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:00.720 when you get down the other end, Uh, do you 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:02.920 give them the benefit of the doubt or you'll give 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:05.360 them a cheap foul back that gets them to the line. 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:10.400 So yes, there's definitely makeup calls. What went down when 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:12.880 you found out this whole You know, you were gambling 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:15.560 on NBA games and when you when the FBI started 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:18.319 snooping around? Who did somebody tip you off? How did 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:21.319 you find out? I know you've talked about this occasionally, 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:23.840 but for those that don't know your story, maybe forgot, 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:25.920 like how did this all go down? Because you were 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:27.440 doing this for a couple of years at least and 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:31.480 then everything hit the fan. Yeah, it was actually at 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:33.320 the end of the year in two thousand and seven. 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.000 I was just getting ready to play around the golf 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:38.320 and Tommy Martino called me, who was one of the 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:41.280 uh CO conspirators on the case, and told me that 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:44.760 the FBI had been to his house that day and 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:48.160 had been to his house, Uh, you know three or 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:51.280 four times prior to that, and uh, you know that 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:54.439 they were snooping around asking questions about what we have 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:57.440 been doing. And I've been given him information that he 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:00.880 had been passed along to uh Jane Fatista, who was 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:04.560 associated with the game being No Crime family, and that uh, 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:06.120 you know, it seemed like we're going to be in 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:09.360 a lot of trouble and then what did you do 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.280 after that? Did you contact an attorney immediately or did 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:16.720 you like I did, I basically hit a major panic button. Uh, 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:20.440 you know, went home, contacted an attorney that I knew 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.520 that lived two streets over from me, and we basically 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:26.959 got together and discussed uh what I had known. And 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:29.400 we went in his office the next day and he 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:32.200 called the United States attorney who was working in the 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:35.760 case and basically had me on speaker phone, and the 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:38.520 guy said, uh, you know, you tell Tim Donkey. We 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:42.440 know what he did, we know who he did it with. Uh, 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:46.199 he's better off coming to us rather than us coming 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:48.440 to get him, because if we have to come get him, 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:50.760 he's going to go to jail for a long long time. 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.800 So I think within like twenty four hours, I was 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:56.560 on a plane to New York meeting with them. Wow. 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:58.760 And then as far as the NBA part of it, 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.720 we know that the late David start of the time 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:04.880 really made a big point if you were alone, Wolf, 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:06.320 if you were the only guy that did this. But 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:08.680 what kind of interaction did you have after that with 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:14.280 NBA officials? Really? Nothing. When John Laura was a former 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.920 federal prosecutor, was one of my attorneys. He called up 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.120 the NBA office and said that we'd like to come 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:22.840 in and sit down with them and uh, you know, 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.760 show them what we did and how we did it. Uh. 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:29.240 They never took us up on the opportunity. They said 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:31.840 they would give us a call back, and uh they 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:35.480 never did. In the Uh wait, David Stern handled it 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:38.640 and just continuing to bury me in the press and 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.360 claiming that I was the one bad apple on the 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:44.800 whole staff and nobody else had anything to do with it. Uh. 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.400 There was just something that really rubbed not owing me, 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:52.600 but my attorneys and the FBI agents the wrong way. So, 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:54.560 I mean, you obviously think you were the fall guy 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:56.160 right that you were there, they were going to use 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:59.160 you as the scapegoat, even though other guys were doing 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.559 similar things. Correct, no doubt. I mean I definitely did 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:04.720 something wrong. I don't want people to think that, you know, 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:08.200 I I uh, you know, got in trouble for something 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:10.520 I didn't do. I definitely was doing something I shouldn't 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.120 have been doing. Uh. And but there was other people 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:16.360 that you know, really gave me this information that I 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:19.040 years that was able to uh, you know, like I 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:22.640 said earlier, make these bets correctly sevent of a time. 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:25.840 You know another thing, Tim about you know, your story 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:29.360 and being a referee all those years before. Obviously this 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:33.040 this whole thing popped up the the superstar call. Can 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.640 you can you walk me through this? Tim, Like, there's 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:38.360 this there's a different set of rules for the headliners 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:41.840 in the NBA. It's been this way. It's seemingly watching 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:44.400 the NBA for for a million years. But you were 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:48.600 right in the middle there the arena. So what guidelines 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:50.760 do they give you guys as referees or did they 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:52.600 give you back in those days when it comes to 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:57.040 a different set of rules for the superstars, it's definitely 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:01.080 the veteran referees that really sit you down and uh, 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:03.440 you know, show you how to survive in the league 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:06.640 as a young referee. And I never forget Jess Kersey, 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:09.440 who was a veteran referee one time said, you know, 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:12.000 when Michael Jordan goes to the hole and there's a crab, 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:14.960 if he, you know, misses a shot, just blow the 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:17.640 whistle and give the foul to somebody, because he didn't 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:20.560 miss that shot on his own. And uh, you know, 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:23.320 there was a lot of different scenarios where if a 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:26.120 star player fouled somebody and it was his third or 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:29.040 fourth foul, and you could give that foul to somebody 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:31.880 else instead of giving it to that star player, you 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:34.280 were told to give it to that other mediocre player 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:38.880 because people didn't play thousands of dollars to six courtside 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:41.640 to see these star players on the bench. So there 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.160 was a different set of rules for the star players 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:49.080 that helped them, uh you know, become those stars that 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:51.920 they are and stay at that level. Uh, that you 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:54.480 were supposed to do as a referee to continue to 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:57.560 help them. Tim based on your experience and where you've 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:00.800 been and what you've seen, um ben, it brought a 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:03.400 little bit this up earlier. But do you think or 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:05.200 do you get a sense that there's any kind of 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.080 overlap between what what happened in the NBA with you 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:11.800 guys back then too, maybe the National Football League or 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:16.880 college football or college basketball. Uh you know, I think 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:20.400 that at every level, Uh you know, there's uh you know, 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:25.640 relationships that exist both positive and negative that's spill out 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:28.960 onto the playing with the with the officials and the 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:32.120 and the coaches and the players. So you know, I 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:35.160 think at every level people are getting the benefit of 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:38.880 calls based on relationships are kind of getting it stuck 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:42.680 to them based on prior situations where you know, a 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:45.280 referee wants to stick it to somebody. So I think 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:48.480 there's a lot of situations that take place, uh you know, 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:53.840 between the referees and playing participants. Uh that both positive 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:57.160 and negative, that that affect the games based on where 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:58.760 we're at now. I know it's easy to play catch 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:02.400 twenty two, but um, you know where we're at social 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:04.600 media wise, in the way that things are looked under 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:07.600 a microscope. Do you think you'd have the balls to 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:09.840 do something like you did then now in today's world? 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:13.720 Definitely not. I'd like to think that if I ever 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:15.800 had a second chance, or I could go back in time, 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:17.800 I wouldn't do it. Uh you know, I had a 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:21.000 great job, big and great money uh cost me everything 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:24.040 that costs me my family, my job, my freedom. So 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:26.159 you know, I'd like to think that, uh you know, 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:28.919 I wouldn't do what I had done in the past. 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:31.679 But uh, you know it's it's something that you know, 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:34.720 we don't know. You can't turn back time. Well, speaking 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:38.560 of that, relationship wise, family wise, what's that like for 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:41.080 you and now in today's world, is there any kind 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:45.120 of connection with you and family anything in that nature? Uh, 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:47.280 you know, definitely. I mean I have poor daughters and 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:49.520 they all lived with me. Now, I think the best 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:52.080 thing that happened through the whole scandal was that I 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:54.720 was I got divorced, So that was one positive thing 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.480 that happened from the whole thing. But other than that, 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:01.800 there really wasn't anything positive from it. It's interesting, um, 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.680 with where we're at in today's world, with all these 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:09.120 sports leagues you're getting in bed with, you know, MGMs 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:13.800 of the world and balis and companies like that, do 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:16.760 you suspect or do you think that maybe not officials, 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:19.119 but do you think athletes one day will fall prey 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:23.119 to gambling debts and things of that nature. Yeah, I 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:26.760 think definitely they'll uh fall prey to gambling guts because 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:29.560 there's so much gambling that goes on. You read about 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:32.520 how much gambling goes on on the planes, uh you know, 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:35.360 to and from games or uh you know how much 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:39.119 gambling goes on, uh you know these card games behind 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:41.639 the scenes and the amount of money that's bet. So 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:46.280 definitely I think they'll fall prey to major, major gambling debts. 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:49.080 But you don't think that they would ever uh, you know, 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:51.199 be in a position where they would do something on 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:54.360 the court because of the amount of money that they make, uh, 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:57.960 you know in their job, that they would ever jeopardize that. 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:02.560 What's the most you've ever waged on the event? Uh? 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:06.040 There were times for I wagered five thousand dollars from 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:08.000 the golf course, or there were times for I waged 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:11.560 five thousand dollars on a sporting event. Uh, you know, 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:16.480 whether it was a college football or an NBA game. Wow. Interesting, Hey, Uh, 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:19.560 Tim to follow up on what Gascon said there, and 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:23.560 the NBA and all these sports leagues have embraced gambling. 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:25.720 There's a lot of money. It's like a gold rush 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:31.120 now in gambling advertising. It's becoming legal across the country 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:33.719 in different states, and eventually, I think pretty much everywhere 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:36.680 outside the Bible Belt it's gonna be gonna be legal. 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:39.680 How do you look at this? Can say, obviously you 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.679 you admitted you did something wrong there, But the NBA 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:45.719 had always been anti gambling, anti gambling. Now they've totally 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:48.840 wrapped their arms around gambling. How do you look at 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:52.719 that considering your situation? Well, I think it's gonna come 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:55.800 down to the revenue and how much revenue that they see, 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:59.920 UH that's projecting to go into their pockets. And when 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:03.520 you talk about having twenty thousand people on these stadiums 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:05.840 and the interactive betting that you're going to be able 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:09.000 to do maybe sitting courtside and being able to place 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:12.800 bets not even leaving your courtside seat. I think something 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.080 that's going to generate an enormous amount of revenue for 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:18.440 the leagu's moving forward, and I think they're going to 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:21.399 take advantage of it. I also want to ask you 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:24.119 about the just the meat and potatoes of officiating and 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:28.119 watching the NFL over the Yearston We've always heard in 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:30.679 watching the game, you can call holding on every play. 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:34.400 As an NBA official, there's contact on almost every play 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:38.720 in the NBA. Could you call a penalty and it 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:40.560 wouldn't even be a wrong call, But could you call 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:43.720 a penalty on every play based on the physical contact 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:47.359 in an NBA game? You could because they want the 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:50.280 physicality out of the game. They want a freak flowing, 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:53.800 high scoring game, and they always seem to be adjusting 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:56.960 the rules so that that continues to take place. That 0:20:57.040 --> 0:21:01.119 they have high scoring games, so any kind of really bump, hold, 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:03.760 or or push, you could really blow the whistle at 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:07.040 any any time. But as a referee, uh, you know, 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:10.480 you keep yourself in trouble if you're calling those fouls 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:12.880 on star players to put them to the bench. They 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:15.320 always say, if you're going to call those things, to 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:18.240