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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: By this stage, we can see that Knox and his

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Speaker 2: team were extremely anxious, not only that no questions be asked,

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Speaker 2: but that no clues be left for courth. Burke and

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Speaker 2: Hair had created an extraordinary method of murder. By the

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Speaker 2: end of it, Burke could even stifle somebody with the

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Speaker 2: two fingers of his right hand with a thumb underneath

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Speaker 2: the chin, drawing in the nostrils very quickly, Hair holding

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Speaker 2: onto the legs to prevent any energy being expressed by

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Speaker 2: the intending corpse.

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Speaker 1: William Burke and William Hare were actually becoming really good

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Speaker 1: at murdering people. Everything was very efficient and well organized.

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Speaker 1: Their methods seemed almost full proof. There were no marks,

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Speaker 1: no physical evidence. They had tea chests ready for the

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Speaker 1: body removal, a porter to escort them inside, and a

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Speaker 1: professor ready to pay them loads of money for fresh body.

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Speaker 1: And they had picked their victims well. Most had been

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Speaker 1: tossed to the side by their families and by society.

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Speaker 1: But that last point about how they picked their victims,

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Speaker 1: Author Owen Dudley Edwards says that's where they went wrong.

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Speaker 2: They were at this stage that meant the mistake of

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Speaker 2: stifling and murdering fairly well known girl, beautiful girl. Anyhow,

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Speaker 2: when they brought Mary Patterson, she was called to doctor

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Speaker 2: Knots's one of his assistants thought he had previously met

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Speaker 2: the lady.

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Speaker 1: And in many ways the murder of that striking woman

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Speaker 1: would be a turning point for William Burke and William.

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Speaker 1: Here everything really is.

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Speaker 3: Quite close here, yeah, well, Edinburg's quite small. It's quite small.

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Speaker 3: It's quite nice because you invariably bump into people you know,

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Speaker 3: just while you're walking around.

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Speaker 1: Jannett filed with the University of Edinburgh. She's been kind

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Speaker 1: enough to show me around the city. It's been a

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Speaker 1: tour filled with macab fax and stories that parents would

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Speaker 1: tell to warn their children. Birkenhair served as a cautionary

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Speaker 1: tale about what might happen if you misbehave or run away.

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Speaker 3: This is the back of Gibbs Coast, so this is

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Speaker 3: where Burke's brother Constantine lived, so he ironically worked for

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Speaker 3: the police. So this is where Mary Patterson was murdered.

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Speaker 1: In April of eighteen twenty eight. William Burke's brother and

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Speaker 1: sister in law were really nervous Constantine and Elizabeth wondered

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Speaker 1: if Janet Brown would return looking for her friend Mary,

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Speaker 1: and she did, but she was having a hard time

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Speaker 1: finding her way back to Burke's brother's lodge. The DRAMs

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Speaker 1: of whiskey might have worn off, but the Hayes was

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Speaker 1: still there. Mary had spent the night at the house

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Speaker 1: with William Burke, and now she was missing. But there

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Speaker 1: there are people searching for her. Janet and the housekeeper

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Speaker 1: from her boarding house stumbled along the cobblestones. There were

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Speaker 1: hundreds of tenements along High Street, and they all seemed

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Speaker 1: to look exactly alike. They stopped at the Spirit store

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Speaker 1: where Burke first seduced Janet. She queried the keeper about

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Speaker 1: the man she and Janet had met that morning. The

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Speaker 1: shopkeeper sneered, saying that she must have been mistaken. He

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Speaker 1: told her that the man was married. He would have

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Speaker 1: never been involved with you. Janet stood stoically and listened,

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Speaker 1: controlling her temper so that she could gather more information. Finally,

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Speaker 1: the man behind the counter told her, you'll probably find

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Speaker 1: him at his brother's in Gibbs Close. Now Janet began

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Speaker 1: to remember the route to Constantine's flat. She and the

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Speaker 1: housekeeper made their way to the tenement. Janet felt immense

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Speaker 1: guilt for leaving without her. She was angry, and she

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Speaker 1: was worried. She had long ago grown wary of the

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Speaker 1: violent men who often tried to tempt her into spending

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Speaker 1: time with them. She couldn't quite figure out William Burke.

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Speaker 1: Mary might have been just fine, and then Janet would

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Speaker 1: have made a huge fuss for nothing. They ascended the

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Speaker 1: wooden spiral staircase. It had only been about twenty minutes

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Speaker 1: since she had left Mary behind, and Janet stopped ask someone,

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Speaker 1: have I been here before? The woman studied them and

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Speaker 1: simply said no. I wouldn't keep company with such people,

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Speaker 1: but the neighbors a few floors above certainly would entertain

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Speaker 1: someone like you. In these taller tenements, it wasn't unusual

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Speaker 1: to find middle class people residing in the heart of

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Speaker 1: the building, while the poorer folks rented the basement and

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Speaker 1: the top floors. The pair continued their climb up the

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Speaker 1: dilapidated wooden staircase, reached the next floor and then knocked.

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Speaker 1: The door opened, and there stood a t young man

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Speaker 1: with black eyes and a slightly gaunt face with angular

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Speaker 1: features standing next to him. Was a heavy set woman

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Speaker 1: about ten years his elder, with a round face and

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Speaker 1: fierce hazel eyes. She was missing a front tooth. They

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Speaker 1: seemed to be an ideal match. Both looked so wicked.

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Speaker 1: They were William and Margaret Hare, and before Janet could

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Speaker 1: take a second look, Margaret lunged at her. She believed

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Speaker 1: that Janet had come to seduce her husband, just like

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Speaker 1: she had tried to seduce William.

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Speaker 3: Burke.

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Speaker 1: Hair corralled his wife, but Janet was startled and suspicious.

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Speaker 1: Her eyes darted to the empty bed. Hare noticed and

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Speaker 1: quickly told her that Mary had left with Burke and

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Speaker 1: would return shortly. She and the housekeeper should stay and

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Speaker 1: have some whiskey. Janet reluctantly agreed, in the hopes that

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Speaker 1: her fears weren't true, that the vicious man hadn't hurt

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Speaker 1: her friend. She sent the housekeeper back home to the landlady,

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Speaker 1: missus Laurie, which was a terrible idea, but for many

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Speaker 1: people in old town, liquor was too much of a

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Speaker 1: temptation to ignore. Janet lifted the whiskey dram from the table.

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Speaker 1: Burke's wife screamed about Burke's bad behavior with Mary Patterson

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Speaker 1: as Janet gulped the whiskey, the trio eyed her, only

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Speaker 1: a knock at the door broke their gaze. Missus Lowry's

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Speaker 1: housekeeper was there with orders to gather Janet and escort

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Speaker 1: her back to the lodge. Before they could stop her,

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Speaker 1: Janet was gone, vowing to return once again for her

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Speaker 1: lost friend, and she did return quite often, much to

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Speaker 1: Burke and Hare's dismay.

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Speaker 3: Janet Brown did make extensive punts for her friend. Afterwards,

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Speaker 3: she actually accosted Constantine Burke in the street, and he's

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Speaker 3: on record of saying he can't possibly keep track of

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Speaker 3: what his brother's up to.

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Speaker 1: Constantine denied knowing anything about Mary's disappearance, and without his help,

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Speaker 1: Janet was soon forced to concede that she might never

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Speaker 1: know what happened to her missing friend. Later, Mary's landlady

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Speaker 1: actually visited Constantine. He and Elizabeth said Mary moved to

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Speaker 1: Glasgow with a man, so they lied. Remember that their descendant,

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Speaker 1: Dan wanted to know if Constantine had known what his

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Speaker 1: brother was really doing and did he help cover it up?

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Speaker 1: And I'm trying to figure that out. So now we

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Speaker 1: have some more information. Janet hoped for the best, but

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Speaker 1: she sensed that something or someone horrible had killed Mary Patterson,

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Speaker 1: and that made her feel so uneasy. Doctor Robert Knox's

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Speaker 1: three assistants squirmed just a bit as they stood near her.

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Speaker 1: Mary Patterson was just eighteen and certainly the most beautiful

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Speaker 1: corpse they had ever seen. She made them uncomfortable. They

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Speaker 1: had no idea that she had been a love just

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Speaker 1: four hours earlier. The porter, David Patterson, stared at her,

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Speaker 1: almost glocking. He said, the beautiful symmetry and the freshness

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Speaker 1: of the body attracted my attention. It may seem obscene

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Speaker 1: that several men stood around gazing at a naked dead woman,

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Speaker 1: and it was. It was disgusting, but they were all

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Speaker 1: stunned because she really didn't belong on that table. And

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Speaker 1: this next part is even more morbid. Doctor Knox was

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Speaker 1: transfixed as he gazed at the body of Mary Patterson.

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Speaker 1: He treated it like a prized possession rather than a

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Speaker 1: piece of contraband. Teaching anatomy didn't involve just knowledge. It

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Speaker 1: was a performance for an audience, and doctor Knox knew

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Speaker 1: that Mary would be this specimen. As horrible as that sounds,

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Speaker 1: the anatomy professor had seen quite literally thousands of kidaffs

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Speaker 1: in his career. He needed at least five hundred a

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Speaker 1: year just to teach as many classes. But this one

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Speaker 1: seemed to bewitch him. She clearly had never been buried.

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Speaker 1: And were two ruffians from old town really that fortunate?

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Speaker 1: Would they really just happen upon an old woman with

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Speaker 1: a handsome body to sell? Probably not, but those are

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Speaker 1: probably the best quality of bodies. I mean, surely with

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Speaker 1: Mary Patterson, he must have had a little.

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Speaker 3: Bit of a light bulb. Was the one who was

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Speaker 3: still warm when she got there?

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Speaker 1: In Christine and young?

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Speaker 3: But he must have known, absolutely must have mine. But

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Speaker 3: maybe not.

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Speaker 1: Maybe Doctor Knox's judgment was so clouded by his own

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Speaker 1: hubris that he wouldn't allow himself to believe that he

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Speaker 1: was an accomplice to murder. But then doctor Knox's behavior

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Speaker 1: became very odd. The lap door swung open, and a

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Speaker 1: man walked in with a bundle under his arm. Knox

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Speaker 1: had called his friend an artist with an unusual request.

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Speaker 3: Knox then brings in an artist to draw her body,

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Speaker 3: which is a whole new level of weird. The medical

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Speaker 3: students also drew her body, which again not the norm.

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Speaker 2: And an artist trend of doctor Knox proceeded to draw her,

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Speaker 2: and copies of the painting survive.

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Speaker 1: That is weird. So Knox hired an artist to sketch

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Speaker 1: her body to capture its.

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Speaker 3: Beauty, and he then preserves her in whiskey for three months.

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Speaker 1: Cadavers were frequently preserved in spirits. Ananimists use the same

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Speaker 1: bodies over and over again. They were that valuable. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Knox treasured Mary Patterson as a prize, and then he

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Speaker 1: exploited her. He displayed her body numerous times, depending on

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Speaker 1: the subject of the lecture. The students were all men,

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Speaker 1: and they crowded around the table in awe. Knox's classes

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Speaker 1: trained surgeons and saved lives. Of course, I admire that,

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Speaker 1: But what's most troubling to me was that anatomists adoration

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Speaker 1: for this cadaver. Mary Patterson, the orphaned teenage girl, was

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Speaker 1: now gone. Knox didn't think about her life, who she was,

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Speaker 1: and how her family might feel. And sometimes that's the

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Speaker 1: case even for modern day anatomy professors. At most schools,

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Speaker 1: young students are constantly reminded that cadavers are people. They're

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Speaker 1: not objects, but they're often referred to as material and

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Speaker 1: it would be easy for any student to see them

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Speaker 1: as body parts. Professor of anatomy Tom Gillingwater at the

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Speaker 1: University of Edinburgh says that securing body do is sensitive.

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Speaker 1: The university doesn't proactively recruit. Gillingwater says that would be unethical,

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Speaker 1: but body donation is not for everyone and they simply

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Speaker 1: couldn't teach anatomy without them. Luckily, they have a consistent

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Speaker 1: number of donors, but he says they could always use

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Speaker 1: more cadavers.

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Speaker 4: We have incredible demands on the material we have. We

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Speaker 4: try and use every single donor to the best of

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Speaker 4: our capability. So you know, they will be using their

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Speaker 4: gift to teach undergraduate students who are gone to become

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Speaker 4: the next generation of doctors. They will be teaching consultant

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Speaker 4: surgeons who are already at the top of their game

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Speaker 4: but want to improve, want to develop new techniques that

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Speaker 4: are going to improve and benefit human health. We we're

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Speaker 4: kind of gradually building this up there. So we've seen

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Speaker 4: these a few times now, haven't you. We've been looking

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Speaker 4: at the cross section to spinal cord.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Gillingwater says they also use cadavers to teach scientists

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Speaker 1: who want to understand the human body and health and disease.

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Speaker 1: They're developing the next generation of therapies and treatments. He

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Speaker 1: says that the University of Edinburgh is very, very fortunate,

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Speaker 1: unlike other schools.

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Speaker 4: So we have on file over three thousand people who

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Speaker 4: have at least said they formally wish to leave their

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Speaker 4: body to us. Numbers vary, but we could receive someone

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Speaker 4: between thirty and sixty bodies a year into the department

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Speaker 4: for using. If we had one hundred bodies a year,

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Speaker 4: would we use them, Yes, we would.

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Speaker 1: And today the University of Edinburgh seems to have earned

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Speaker 1: the trust of many people. Unlike in the eighteen hundreds,

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Speaker 1: there's so much trust that they're willing to donate their

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Speaker 1: bodies despite the gruesome tales that have plugged medical schools

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Speaker 1: for centuries. What are the fears? What are the myths?

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Speaker 4: Goodness, where do you start? I mean, you hear all

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Speaker 4: sorts of stories, don't you You And a lot of

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Speaker 4: them are simply urban myths, the kind of stories you

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Speaker 4: hear from medical schools of oh, you know, there was

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Speaker 4: a medical student managed to take a foot out of

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Speaker 4: the class, and so there's a kind of the fear

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Speaker 4: of or there'll be pranks played on the bodies, or

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Speaker 4: there'll be something like that.

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Speaker 1: I've written a lot about crime scenes in my books,

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Speaker 1: specifically about the image of a female victim dead and

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Speaker 1: sprawled out in her home while countless police officers peered

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Speaker 1: down at her body, stays there for hours as detectives

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Speaker 1: and reporters mill around her, photographers take pictures of her.

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Speaker 1: She's exposed and she's vulnerable, and no woman would want

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Speaker 1: to be remembered like that, And those types of scenes

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Speaker 1: will likely always be in my books because true crime

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Speaker 1: stories often feature a man killing a woman. That type

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Speaker 1: of murder is absolutely a tragedy. But for anatomy professors,

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Speaker 1: a body in the right hands is a gift, a

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Speaker 1: privilege to help educate. Tom Gillingwater says he absolutely understands

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Speaker 1: why many potential donors have such an internal struggle.

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Speaker 4: I think the problem is that the misconceptions and the

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Speaker 4: natural tendency to see perhaps the worst possibilities or to

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Speaker 4: assume the worst is what will happen in society. You know,

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Speaker 4: where's my relative being sent to, or what's happening or

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Speaker 4: these kind of things.

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Speaker 1: Religion is also a factor, particularly with Catholics, considering body donation.

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Speaker 1: In Burkeenhir's time, the Catholic Church, along with other religious organizations,

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Speaker 1: railed against nanimists, but virtually all religions have reversed that

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Speaker 1: edict in the past two hundred years. Anthony Horn is

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Speaker 1: the director of the Catholic Parliamentary Office in Scotland. He

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Speaker 1: represents the Church in Britain's swiftly changing political landscape.

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Speaker 5: Ideally, you know, for example, when you die, that you're

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Speaker 5: buried rather than created, and that's we've heard that recently,

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Speaker 5: in fact, from Pope Francis and from the Church. It

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Speaker 5: doesn't necessarily mean that if someone is created, or if

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Speaker 5: someone's body is donated in some way to research whatever,

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Speaker 5: that that body's lost, because we trust, of course in

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Speaker 5: God and he's all powerful.

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Speaker 1: Gillenwater says that certain worldwide exhibitions actually reduce body donations,

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Speaker 1: like one that features cadavers in various positions, or a

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Speaker 1: TV show in Britain that features a live dissection. Those things,

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Speaker 1: he says, don't help.

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Speaker 4: I still think that death, the subject of death, the

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Speaker 4: subject of the human body mortality perhaps is taboo. It's

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Speaker 4: not openly discussed some in my family, even though I'm

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Speaker 4: the professor of an optimium deal with these kind of

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Speaker 4: issues stanned out. It's not something we ever would sit

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Speaker 4: down openly and discuss.

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Speaker 1: And because of that, doctor Gillingwater says he gives potential

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Speaker 1: donors space to make their own decisions. The subject of

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Speaker 1: death can be taboo in certain cultures. It was less

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Speaker 1: so in the eighteen hundreds because people died so frequently

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Speaker 1: and so early in life.

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Speaker 3: There's still some people he believed that the body has

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Speaker 3: to be whole when it's buried or created or whatever.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you only have to look at organ donation

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Speaker 3: because not everybody signs up to organ donation. Why not?

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Speaker 3: So there's obviously some something going on in people's heads.

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Speaker 1: Historian Owenderly Edwards says that many families struggle with the

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Speaker 1: idea that a loved one might donate their body to research.

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Speaker 2: So what Scott summed it up very well when he said,

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Speaker 2: after his wife died that he would have so we've

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Speaker 2: been perfectly happy to have his own body give him

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Speaker 2: to the doctors for research, but he would like the

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Speaker 2: thought of them pulling over the body of his wife.

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Speaker 2: Now many people felt like that about it.

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Speaker 1: By the late spring of eighteen twenty eight, Birkenhair had

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Speaker 1: created quite an enterprise. They had devised a fool proof

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Speaker 1: method of murder. Not even the brightest investigator would be

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Speaker 1: able to prove it. They had established a system with

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Speaker 1: the porter and the assistants and doctor Knox at the laboratory.

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Speaker 1: Birkenhair knew their parts in this scheme. They had killed

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Speaker 1: five people so far, but neither guessed that there would

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Speaker 1: be trouble ahead, and neither did doctor Knox. And it

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Speaker 1: all started with a boy. Author George Orwell once said,

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Speaker 1: if you want to keep a secret, you must also

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Speaker 1: hide it from yourself. The old man nodded eagerly at

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Speaker 1: the younger man. He could feel himself being led along

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Speaker 1: the street. High Street was crowded that June, but he

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Speaker 1: had been promised plenty of whiskey, which was waiting for

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Speaker 1: him inside a boarding house just nearby, in Tanner's Close.

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Speaker 1: The old man was frail, but he managed to keep up. Suddenly,

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Speaker 1: the younger man seemed startled. An old irishwoman with her

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Speaker 1: arm around a ten year old boy, was asking him questions.

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Speaker 1: She was teary eyed.

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Speaker 5: She and her.

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Speaker 1: Grandson had wandered by foot almost fifty miles from Glasgow

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Speaker 1: to Edinburgh. They had been sleeping at night by the

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Speaker 1: roads or in the fields, and now she was searching

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Speaker 1: old town everywhere for friends who could help them. Edinburgh

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Speaker 1: was a small city, so she hoped that the young

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Speaker 1: man could help her and her grandson. The old man

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Speaker 1: looked down with his dull eyes. The boy was deaf

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Speaker 1: and mute. He felt his hand dropped by his side.

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Speaker 1: The offer of loads of whiskey was quickly rescinded. The

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Speaker 1: old man had been cast away for a far bigger prize.

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Speaker 1: The young man had his arms around the old woman

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Speaker 1: and the boy now, and just like that they disappeared

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Speaker 1: down a shadowy close. William Burke understood basic math. Two

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Speaker 1: victims were certainly better than one. He promised the old

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Speaker 1: woman and her grandson that he could indeed find her friends.

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Speaker 1: They were all Irish, after all, why not she could

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Speaker 1: come in for a dram of whiskey while he searched Westport.

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Speaker 1: The old woman passed out on the bed behind a

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Speaker 1: closed door in a room in the back of the

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Speaker 1: boarding house. Hare suddenly appeared and he stood over her.

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Speaker 1: He placed his hands over her mouth and nose. As

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Speaker 1: Burke laid on her chest. Soon she was dead. Each

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Speaker 1: of their murders from then on seemed to follow the

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Speaker 1: same pattern. It was simple and it took just a

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Speaker 1: few minutes. Once the victims were drunk and unconscious, they

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Speaker 1: couldn't breathe. They began to convulse their stomachs made a

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Speaker 1: rumbling noise. They might have cried. Birk and Haare would

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Speaker 1: then leave them to die alone, sometimes while they were

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Speaker 1: still gasping for breath. When the men would return, the

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Speaker 1: victims were always dead. Often their bodies were in a

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Speaker 1: different position as they struggled to stay alive. It was

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Speaker 1: a horrendous way to die. Birke and Haare stripped the

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Speaker 1: grandmother's body, then covered her with a bedtick filled with hay.

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Speaker 1: Her grandson was in another room, with Margaret Hare and

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Speaker 1: Nellie McDougall being comforted. Maybe I'm not certain that either

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Speaker 1: of these women had any real maternal instincts, but they

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Speaker 1: did keep the boy quiet until the next morning. He

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Speaker 1: was restless and making noises that clearly indicated he needed

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Speaker 1: to see his grandmother. Birkenhare talked about what to do next.

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Speaker 1: They discussed releasing him on High Street to sort out

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Speaker 1: his his own destiny. Remember he was mute. It was

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Speaker 1: a big problem. They couldn't carry a boy and his

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Speaker 1: grandmother to the doctor at the same time, could they.

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Speaker 1: The men couldn't agree, and rather than argue, Hair left

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Speaker 1: to find a tea chest for the grandmother's body. Now

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Speaker 1: here's the hard part for me. Burke walked into the

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Speaker 1: other room and looked over at the boy. He lifted

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Speaker 1: him and carried him into another room. Soon he was dead.

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Speaker 1: Burked murdered by suffocation. Burke laid his body alongside the

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Speaker 1: body of his grandmother, but later rumors would suggest that

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Speaker 1: he did something even more ghastly.

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Speaker 3: And he's a big point of controversy amongst Burke and

354
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Speaker 3: Hair researchers because there's some claim that they murdered him

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Speaker 3: by breaking his back just over his knees. I suspect

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Speaker 3: he's probably physically impossible, but anyway, Burke's argument was, why

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Speaker 3: would they do that when they got a perfect good

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Speaker 3: method of killing people?

359
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 1: But the boy wasn't unconscious or physically disabled, so it

360
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Speaker 1: wasn't quite as simple as smothering an old woman. Regardless

361
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Speaker 1: of the method, Burke and Hair now needed to deliver

362
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Speaker 1: the bodies to doctor Knox. The old woman and the

363
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 1: boy wouldn't fit together in their normal tea chest, so

364
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Speaker 1: Hair carried in an old herring barrel. The two bodies

365
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,640
Speaker 1: were crammed in there and then hauled out the back

366
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Speaker 1: to hair stable. The barrel was incredibly heavy, too heavy

367
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Speaker 1: for the men to carry themselves. Hair prepared his horse

368
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Speaker 1: and cart, hauled the barrel on top, and the men

369
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Speaker 1: raced towards surgeon Square. Okay, raised might be an exaggeration.

370
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Speaker 1: Hare's battered old horse moved slowly up and down the

371
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Speaker 1: hills of Edinburgh until it just stopped. It refused to move,

372
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Speaker 1: despite the litany of curses from both men. Hair lashed

373
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Speaker 1: it over and over, but it was no use. Burke's

374
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Speaker 1: face turned red, his heart pounded because a crowd had

375
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Speaker 1: gathered around on the horse and cart, and people eyed

376
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Speaker 1: that barrel. Burke panicked and trembled. Hare continued to beat

377
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 1: the horse. Burke prayed, and then a man asked if

378
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,879
Speaker 1: they needed a hand. He was a laborer with a

379
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,920
Speaker 1: large wheelbarrel. Quickly they loaded up the barrel and off

380
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 1: they went to doctor Knox's laboratory, with Burke fretting the

381
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Speaker 1: entire way. When they arrived, Burke wrapped both arms around

382
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Speaker 1: the barrel and laid it on the floor of the

383
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:32,640
Speaker 1: dissecting room. They pried opened the lid, and doctor Knox's

384
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 1: medical assistance seemed irritated. When Burke Andhair had jammed the

385
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 1: bodies into the barrel, they had not yet stiffened. That

386
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 1: was not the case now. Brigamortis had fully set in

387
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Speaker 1: and it was nearly impossible to untangle them. When they

388
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 1: were finally transferred to the exam table. Burke and Hair

389
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 1: received sixteen pounds. That was an excellent wage, but William

390
00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 1: Burke was sullen even more than usual. He was shape

391
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Speaker 1: by the boy's murder. He described the young victim's wistful eyes,

392
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Speaker 1: his piteous expression as he was killing him. It tortured Burke.

393
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Speaker 1: So I don't ever say that I feel sorry for

394
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Speaker 1: William Burke, but sometimes I do.

395
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Speaker 3: What did this do to him? He started having to

396
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 3: drink a large amount of whiskey before he could sleep

397
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 3: at night, and he always slept with the light on.

398
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,120
Speaker 3: That killing of the child really sort of pushed him

399
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 3: over the age, as it were.

400
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: Burke often relied on whiskey to alleviate his guilt. Hair

401
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 1: seemed to be able to murder without it. Do you

402
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: think they took any pleasure in this besides just monetary pleasure.

403
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 3: There is the argument that Burke did it for money.

404
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 3: Hair maybe not so much. Maybe he was into the

405
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 3: pleasure side of it, but Burke was businessman.

406
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 1: But both Burke and Hair needed money, and at this

407
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:55,479
Speaker 1: point they'd do anything to get it. Margaret Hare and

408
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 1: Nellie McDougall were expensive women to keep. They enjoyed fine clothing,

409
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,479
Speaker 1: very fine clothing. When they ran low on money, they

410
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 1: wore cheaper outfits, But after a murder, the women donned

411
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 1: ensembles fit for Paris, at least they thought so. Burke

412
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 1: and Hare also dressed nicely when they weren't working on

413
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 1: the canal or in the stables. The men had sizeable expenses,

414
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: particularly their daily whiskey and porter bill, and it was

415
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 1: clear to everyone around them that they had money, except

416
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 1: right now they didn't. So this was the time for

417
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 1: another murder. Burke pushed aside all images of the deaf

418
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: mute boy and focused on finding another victim. Early one morning,

419
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 1: Burke saw a pair of policemen dragging a drunk woman

420
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,439
Speaker 1: toward the police station in Westport. He watched as they

421
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: wrestled with her.

422
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 2: Burke confound two policemen sizing with a very drunken woman,

423
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 2: and she seemed to have been winning.

424
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Speaker 1: They seemed exhausted and frustrated. As Burke strolled over, he

425
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: said to them, let the one good to her lodgings.

426
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: The constables replied that they were happy to be done

427
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 1: with her, but she just didn't seem sober enough to

428
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 1: direct them to her home, even if she did have one.

429
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 2: Burke persuaded them to leave the woman with him and said,

430
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 2: hope that he would take her to a place where

431
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 2: she'd be looked after. She'd be all right, she wouldn't

432
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 2: give the police any more trouble. She didn't, so I know.

433
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: It probably seems odd that two police officers would turn

434
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,719
Speaker 1: over a drunk woman to some guy on the street,

435
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: but historian Owen Dudley Edwards says there's a good reason

436
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 1: for that.

437
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 2: Burke seems to have been quite a diplomat and quite

438
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 2: an artist. In fact, was respected and admired as a

439
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 2: speaker in preaching actually various forms of Christianity. He had

440
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 2: to weigh with him with words. Although Irish was probably

441
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 2: his first language not English.

442
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: I think this is the first time I've ever heard

443
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: of a serial killer being compared to a diplomat. And

444
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: also the Scottish police in Edinburgh had a delicate relationship

445
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,360
Speaker 1: with the Irish and Old Town. The immigrants were strong

446
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: and violent, and they banded together. It was smart for

447
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: local constables to stay on their good side, and Burke

448
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 1: was generally well behaved, at least for an irishman in

449
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: Westport at the time.

450
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 2: So for all sorts of reasons, the police didn't want

451
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 2: to be pursuing Burke too closely. He was an immigrant

452
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: who was friendly with the police, an Irish immigrant and

453
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 2: Irish Catholic friendly with the police. There weren't many who were.

454
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: Shortly after the drunken woman arrived at Hare's Lodge, she

455
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: was murdered, and then she was loaded into a tea

456
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: chest and taken down to doctor Knox's where she was

457
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: sold for ten pounds. There were all sorts of jobs

458
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: for people in eighteen twenties a Edinburgh, and most in

459
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: Old Town were really horrible, but an old lady named

460
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: Effie seemed to actually enjoy hers. She was what the

461
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: locals called a cinder woman, someone who searched through ashes

462
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 1: after fires to find cinders and other valuable items to sell.

463
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 1: Effie would dig through ash pits and cinder heaps for hours,

464
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: and occasionally she would find small pieces of leather that

465
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 1: perhaps a cobbler might be interested in buying. William Burke

466
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: knew e Fie quite well. She was in the habit

467
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: of collecting leather scraps that he could use for the

468
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 1: shoes that he was mending. And one day Effie appeared

469
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: inside Hair's stables behind the boarding house. Hare had allowed

470
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 1: Burke to operate his cobbler business there, and that was

471
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 1: something interesting about Burke and Hare. They both worked at real,

472
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: honest jobs. Burke was a cobbler and Hare worked on

473
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: boats on the canal.

474
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: William Hare had commenced employment in Edinburgh at the Edinburgh

475
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: end of the canal. Hare was digging there. He was

476
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 2: digging as one of a group.

477
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: Burke offered Effie a drink, which might have been innocent.

478
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: They did know each other. Soon William Hare appeared and

479
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: the tone changed. Effie was given more whiskey, and soon

480
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: she grew sleepy. Burke offered a palette of stroke in

481
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: the corner of the stables, soon she was asleep and

482
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: then dead. Her body fetched birk and hair ten pounds

483
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: from doctor Knox's assistants. Meanwhile, doctor Knox's family continued to grow.

484
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: He had six kids now. He seemed to be a

485
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: good father, but his relationship with his wife, Mary Russell

486
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: was difficult.

487
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 3: He'd married below what people perceived to be his station,

488
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 3: so he didn't have much of a social life because

489
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 3: he kind of kept his wife hidden away, as it were,

490
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 3: because people didn't think she was of the right status.

491
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: Most colleagues thought Knox was actually a bachelor because his

492
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: family was so well hidden. Mary and their children lived

493
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: in a nice area of the city, but it was

494
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: far away from Surgeon Square. His official residence in Newtown

495
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: was a place he shared with his two sisters. Knox

496
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: had growing financial pressures as he struggled to thrive in

497
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: haughty Edinburgh society, and he said as much in a

498
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: letter to a family member, one of the many people

499
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: he was supporting. You cannot think what pleasure I have

500
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: and making you all comfortable. I do believe that were

501
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: it not for this pleasure, I would not take the

502
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: trouble to take another meal, for I am tired of

503
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: the world. It is humbug and commonplace. Why was he

504
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: so despised by the other people who worked with him.

505
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 3: I get the impression that he wasn't a particularly nice person.

506
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 3: He had a very high opinion of himself.

507
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: It's so strange, though, because he's so sweet when he

508
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,239
Speaker 1: talks to his daughter. But I mean that's also what

509
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: we talk about in this kind of story, is the

510
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: duality of people's personalities. And his students loved him, right.

511
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 3: They absolutely think the sun shines out to him. He

512
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 3: was a really great teacher. Equally, by all account's very

513
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 3: high opinion of himself, which might well have been justified.

514
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 3: So I think it's probably his personality. Yeah, I mean,

515
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 3: everybody's got two sides of their personality, but I think

516
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 3: having such a reputation is such a teacher, you can't

517
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 3: help that must have fed his idea that he was

518
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 3: the best.

519
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: Robert Knox was born in seventeen ninety one in Edinburgh.

520
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: He came from a middle class family, the youngest of

521
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: five boys and eight girls. His father was a mathematician

522
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: and a teacher of natural philosophy at a nearby hospital.

523
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: At home, Knox was particularly attached to his brother Frederick.

524
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: They were carrying an affectionate toward each other. But in

525
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: school Knox was a menace. He had a reputation as

526
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: a bully who humiliated his foes both mentally and physically.

527
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: He was also consistently at the top of his class.

528
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: Knox was accepted into medical school at the University of

529
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: Edinburgh thanks to the man who would become one of

530
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: his main professional rivals.

531
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 3: He actually failed his first attempt to become a doctor.

532
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 3: He failed on anatomy because of the teaching of Monroe Tertius.

533
00:31:59,520 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 5: Here.

534
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,479
Speaker 3: He then went off and did annaskeomy with John Barclay.

535
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 3: He had a private anatomy school.

536
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: Under doctor Barclay. Knox thrived and he learned the importance

537
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: of dynamic lecturing and the value of a cadaver. He

538
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: graduated in eighteen fourteen and then joined the army the

539
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: following year. Knox was sent to Brussels, Belgium, during the

540
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: Battle of Waterloo, where he tended to the wounded. That

541
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: was where he honed to surgical skills.

542
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 2: When the Battle of Waterloo took place, for example, doctors

543
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: went down to the battlefield for weeks afterwards to find

544
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 2: out what they could about corpses which were to be

545
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 2: picked up there. Among the doctors who did that was

546
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 2: doctor Robert Knox.

547
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: Two years later he was sent to South Africa. He

548
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: studied zoology there, but he found the work to be light,

549
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 1: almost like holidaying, and an undesirable destination. When Knox was

550
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 1: in Africa, he wrote long and emotional letters to his

551
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: brother Frederick, his closest friend. How happy am I, and

552
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: yet how wretched delighted to hear of your health and prosperity.

553
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: Yet miserable at the thoughts of the wide extended ocean

554
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: which rolls between us. I have been necessitated to resign

555
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: the pen for the gun to acquire the art of

556
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: managing the reins of my horse whilst traveling on the

557
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: parched roads of Africa. After studying under some of the

558
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: world's best anatomists in Paris, Knox returned to Edinburgh, where

559
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: he began to write well received research papers. He was

560
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: elected Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons in Edinburgh,

561
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: which gained him enormous respect. He teamed up with his

562
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: old professor, John Barclay to eventually take over the private

563
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: anatomy school in short order. Robert Knox quickly became the

564
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: most sought after anatomy professor in Edinburgh, but he certainly

565
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 1: had enemies.

566
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 2: One collection of crooks had got home with a body

567
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 2: and sold it to Liston, who was one of Knox's rivals,

568
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 2: whom he often insulted in his lectures. Listed didn't pay

569
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 2: the crooks enough, so they stoled the body and resold

570
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 2: it to Knox, who, of course never asked any questions.

571
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 2: You didn't ask any questions.

572
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: By eighteen twenty eight, his classes were thriving, his family

573
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: was out of the public eye, and perhaps he might

574
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: earn that coveted faculty position at the University of Edinburgh.

575
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: Robert Knox seemed to have his entire future sorted out,

576
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: and Birkenhare seemed to have an unending supply of impressive bodies.

577
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 2: Birkendare cut out the middleman. No nasty business of grave

578
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 2: mode or anything like that, adhering to the corpse, No

579
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 2: having to deal with bits of coffins or anything of

580
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 2: that nature. No dealing indeed with dangerous watch and ward

581
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 2: committees spying for grave robbers. Oh. No, Birke and Haare

582
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 2: did the thing.

583
00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: Cleanly, while the anatomist and his assas dice were careful

584
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: to never note where the bodies came from. The doctor's

585
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: research betrayed him. Knox's notes about the sex and condition

586
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,240
Speaker 1: of his corpses coincided with the dates of the murders.

587
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: The phrase taken from a healthy looking female was used

588
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 1: quite a lot in the spring of eighteen twenty eight,

589
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: when Robert Knox had dissected Mary Patterson's body before a

590
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: packed anatomy class three months after her death. He seemed pleased,

591
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 1: but her marvelous body was cursed. She soon became the

592
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 1: one birkenhair murder victim that everyone would remember. The story

593
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: was told and retold of a young girl, strikingly beautiful

594
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: and promiscuous, betrayed by her own troubled life at the

595
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,399
Speaker 1: hands of callous murderers, only to be recognized by her

596
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: medical student lovers as she lay upon the dissection table.

597
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: Of course, we know this was just lore, but it

598
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,760
Speaker 1: didn't matter. Mary Patterson was branded a girl about town,

599
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: a woman whose reputation in death was certainly more interesting

600
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:09,479
Speaker 1: than her real life.

601
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 3: It's a case of whether you think she was a prostitute.

602
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 3: And the doctors recognized he because they make frequent use

603
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 3: of prostitutes or whether she was just an unfortunate girl.

604
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 3: And as her friend says, she wasn't a prostitute, and

605
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 3: she was recognized by the doctors because she'd just been

606
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 3: in hospital. I mean, I have to decide which is

607
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 3: more likely.

608
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: But Birkenhare had become careless. They broke an unspoken rule

609
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,720
Speaker 1: avoid killing people who would be missed. It was Burke's

610
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: horrible mistake. Within months, Mary's friend Janet Brown would become

611
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: one of our local heroes. When Mary went missing, Janet

612
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 1: Brown started harassing anyone within earshot. She harangued police and

613
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: interrogated Birkenhair. She wouldn't stop until someone finally listened, but

614
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: by then it was too late. Nellie McDougall and Margaret

615
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: Hare really despised each other. There's no doubt about that.

616
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: They were both mean, insecure and drunk, so dust ups

617
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: between the two arrived daily, and frankly, William Burke and

618
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,720
Speaker 1: William Hare didn't care for one another either. They seemed

619
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: to know that they would turn on each other if

620
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: the police arrived one day. The women were jealous, the

621
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:33,280
Speaker 1: men were suspicious, and the neighbors seemed oblivious. Burke wondered

622
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: to himself when this all might end, it had to end.

623
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: He couldn't sleep at night. The image of the boy

624
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: he killed would never vanish. He needed a rest. Every year,

625
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 1: Burke and Nelly took a holiday trip to Bannockburn to

626
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: celebrate a battle where the Scottish defeated the English in

627
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: the fourteenth century. They would also visit Nelly's father, who

628
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: lived nearby in Falkirk. Margaret Hare seemed pleased that they

629
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: were leaving, which seemed odd to Nelly because she was

630
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: normally so unpleasant. William Hare pulled Burke aside for a

631
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: frank conversation.

632
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 3: Maybe they should consider killing Burke's wife because she's Scottish

633
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 3: and the rest of them are Irish, and maybe they

634
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 3: shouldn't be trusting somebody who isn't Irish.

635
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: Burke was unfounded. Margaret wanted him to murder his own wife.

636
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,479
Speaker 1: Hare even offered a plan. They would say that something

637
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: happened to Nelly and Bannockburn.

638
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 3: They could just say that Nellie became ill while she

639
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 3: was there, and Burke returns on his own, and nobody

640
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 3: would really ask any questions. Obviou see, Burke thinks this

641
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 3: is just completely out of order.

642
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: Hare argued that they needed the money. Burke had noticed

643
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: that the couple had pawned some things. Burke walked away

644
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: angry and suspicious, and now Nellie's life might be in danger.

645
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 2: He was worried that Helen mcdougan, not being an Irish Catholic,

646
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 2: might be murdered by the He that she was vulnerable.

647
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: William Hare looked at Margaret. They needed more money and

648
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 1: there was just one thing to do. But Burke and

649
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: Hare had a very important rule. Don't kill on your

650
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: own where partners, they said, not for too much longer.

651
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Speaker 1: On the next episode of tenfold more Wicked.

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Speaker 3: But this is where Burke and Hair went wrong, he said.

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00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 3: At this point he felt they could just they could

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00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 3: do anything. If they could take fit twenty one year

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00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 3: olds off the street. There was no way anyone was

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Speaker 3: ever going to stop.

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Speaker 2: Them, and he seems to have been the only corpse

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Speaker 2: who had known that he was about to be murdered.

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Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, be sure to order

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Speaker 1: my book, American Sherlock. It's about a real life Sherlock

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Speaker 1: Holmes who solved some of the most gruesome in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenties. The paperback arrives on February sixteenth, but it's

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Speaker 1: available for pre order now. This has been an exactly

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Speaker 1: right and tenfold more media production producers Jason Whaling and

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00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: Laura Soble, sound designer Eric Friend, composer Curtis Heath, artwork

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00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive producers Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer.

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Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked,

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00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 1: and on Twitter at tenfold more. If you're an advertiser

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Speaker 1: interested in advertising on our show, go to midroll dot

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Speaker 1: com slash ads, and if you know of a historical

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Speaker 1: crime that could use some attention, email us at info

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Speaker 1: at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. So please listen, subscribe, leave us

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Speaker 1: a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get

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Speaker 1: your podcasts,