Speaker 1: Warning.
Speaker 2: Today's episode canday spoilers for the debut of the Thunderbolts
Speaker 2: team in Marvel Comics in nineteen ninety seven. And if
Speaker 2: you didn't read that, don't worry because we're just going
Speaker 2: to tell you everything that happened. Hello, my name is
Speaker 2: Jason Muceepsion and I'm Mersey Night and welcome to next
Speaker 2: our vision of the podcast where we dive deep into
Speaker 2: your favorite Joe's movie comics of pop culture.
Speaker 1: Coming to you from iHeart Podcast.
Speaker 2: We'll bring you three episodes a week every Tuesday, Wednesday,
Speaker 2: Thursday plus news plus news.
Speaker 1: In today's episode, it's a book club episode. But you
Speaker 1: know what, guys, we're looking through Ip mcgeddon and there's
Speaker 1: so much going on. We're covering the Lost of Us,
Speaker 1: we're covering and or we're covering the Thunderbolts. So you
Speaker 1: know what, if you didn't get a chance, don't want
Speaker 1: to read this issue, don't worry because guess what we're
Speaker 1: going to tell you exactly what happens in it. So
Speaker 1: this is Thunderbot's number one from ninety ninety seven.
Speaker 2: All right, Thunderbolts number one, tell us about it, Rosie.
Speaker 1: Okay, So in the wake of the Onslaught event where
Speaker 1: we saw the terrifying villain Onslaugh essentially kill. They are
Speaker 1: the Dangers and the Fantastic Four. They are dead. Guys
Speaker 1: can come on for ninety ninety seven. They are dead.
Speaker 1: And I have to say, I think there's a pretty
Speaker 1: important point in this comic because we don't really know
Speaker 1: what the status quo is going to be going into Thunderbolts,
Speaker 1: So all we know is that people keep saying the
Speaker 1: Avengers are not going to come and save us, so
Speaker 1: who knows. So the Marvel universe is without the heroes
Speaker 1: it has long depended on. New York is in ruins
Speaker 1: after Onslaughts attack, and the world is facing a future
Speaker 1: without superheroes. That is until a mysterious team of heroes
Speaker 1: shows up on the scene known as the Thunderbolts Citizen
Speaker 1: V Techno, mac One, Songbird, Atlas, and Meteorite, and Mark
Speaker 1: Bagley gives these motherfuckers the most nineties looking costumes of
Speaker 1: all time, and.
Speaker 2: So looly really nineties.
Speaker 1: You're reading this as a kid, and you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is gonna be just another group of nineties superheroes.
Speaker 1: Who cares they don't make any impact on me? But
Speaker 1: the book wants you to know they're important, so they're
Speaker 1: going to start off by taking down the rat Pack,
Speaker 1: who are wearing some interestingly Barren Zemo coded outfits, and
Speaker 1: the Wrecking Crew, showing that they are incredibly strong. Because
Speaker 1: the Wrecking Crew are very strong, they have magical artifacts,
Speaker 1: and the new team, the Thunderbolts, took them down very easily.
Speaker 1: But just as New York and the world are getting
Speaker 1: ready to accept their new savers, the issue has a
Speaker 1: legendary rug pool when it is revealed on the final
Speaker 1: page that Citizen v Is Baron Helmet z Emo and
Speaker 1: the Thunderbolts are actually the Masters of Evil. WHOA. Now,
Speaker 1: it's kind of hard to explain how this was back
Speaker 1: in the day, because it was marketed as if this
Speaker 1: was the new team you needed to know. This was
Speaker 1: the new hero team you were going to care about.
Speaker 1: There were no leaks, there were no forums. They're probably
Speaker 1: very early versions of forums, but not the kind that
Speaker 1: would be leaking like this. There were no constant clickbait coverage,
Speaker 1: so we were really shocked when this happened, and it's
Speaker 1: a huge establishing point for the name of the Thunderbolts team,
Speaker 1: which when we go into the movie. We're going to
Speaker 1: be very interested to see if they keep because the
Speaker 1: thing that is key to the Thunderbolts is the idea
Speaker 1: that you think they are heroes, but they are not.
Speaker 1: Whereas from what we've seen of the trailers, this is
Speaker 1: the inversion of that, you think they are villains or
Speaker 1: morally gray heroes who are now going to become heroes
Speaker 1: in a true sense. So that would be a direct
Speaker 1: kind of flip of what we expect from the Thunderbolts.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about that. I wonder how much of that,
Speaker 2: how much of a mistaken identity mm hmmm, dynamic will
Speaker 2: be involved in the movie based on this. As you mentioned,
Speaker 2: it's pretty it's central to Thunderbolts.
Speaker 1: It's central. So why had such an impact is to.
Speaker 2: The issue and and to the ongoing run, which takes
Speaker 2: some really fun directions, like you know, Zemo, son of
Speaker 2: a Nazi thirteenth Year zero is you know, pretty keen
Speaker 2: on kind of subverting heroism and doing evil while pretending
Speaker 2: to be a bad guy. But the conflict that becomes
Speaker 2: the most interesting conflict that drives the Thunderbolts is that
Speaker 2: a lot of his team is like, wait a second,
Speaker 2: I kind of like being good guy, like it.
Speaker 1: Seems kind of good like people like people. It's kind
Speaker 1: of easier than being villains. We don't have to do
Speaker 1: as much scheming.
Speaker 2: And so I wonder if in the movie there's something
Speaker 2: there's either that or you know, or or if the
Speaker 2: team they flip it and the team gets set up
Speaker 2: almost as bad guys.
Speaker 1: I do want if we are rooting for them, but
Speaker 1: we end up in a situation where we know they
Speaker 1: were trying to do the right thing, but they end
Speaker 1: as antagonists. I think that would be really clever and
Speaker 1: it would make sense. Put on your spoiler earmuffs if
Speaker 1: you're going into this not seeing any trailers and you
Speaker 1: don't want to know anything that's happening, because I do
Speaker 1: think this is something they should have kept out the trailers.
Speaker 1: We're gonna spoil. Now we know thanks to the trailers
Speaker 1: that you know Bob and Sentry are the same person.
Speaker 1: So I wonder if the thing here is Bob is
Speaker 1: on their team, working alongside them, and at the end
Speaker 1: it's revealed like, well, you guys have been working with Century,
Speaker 1: who is the bad guy you were supposed to be
Speaker 1: taking down all along, so you must truly be the
Speaker 1: villains of the piece, and we end up in a
Speaker 1: situation where they are perceived that way and go into
Speaker 1: future stories as antagonists. That would be very brave of them.
Speaker 1: I think to do that with Bucky.
Speaker 2: I agree, especially I I'm going to pitch a haircut
Speaker 2: on your idea. I wonder if the Countess's idea is
Speaker 2: we can't control Century. He becomes the Void, he kills people.
Speaker 2: What if we frame the Thunderbolts for all these deaths.
Speaker 2: They're bad guys anyway, and I think maybe that's where
Speaker 2: we might end up at the end, where they defeat
Speaker 2: the centry work that makes a defeat defeat they you know,
Speaker 2: defeat the Void and stabilize Bob slash the Century, but
Speaker 2: all the destruction that happens in New York and the
Speaker 2: casualties then become the official story, then becomes the Thunderbolts.
Speaker 1: Did this? Yes, that actually makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1: Could see them on the run, could see that bond
Speaker 1: as a team tested. We also know that the Asterix,
Speaker 1: which has been a big part of the marketing and
Speaker 1: at first seemed like maybe was less of a marketing
Speaker 1: thing and was more of an actual Disney wasn't sure
Speaker 1: if they were going to call it that, but it
Speaker 1: has become a key part of the marketing. I definitely
Speaker 1: think we could end up in a world where these
Speaker 1: by the end, they're like being called the Dark Avengers,
Speaker 1: or they're being called, you know, something different than the Thunderbolts,
Speaker 1: but the Thunderbolt's name would make a lot of sense
Speaker 1: if it goes that route. Jason, that's a that's a
Speaker 1: very good take. I think that could definitely happen. And
Speaker 1: this is very interesting as well in a historical sense,
Speaker 1: which go back and listen to our who are the
Speaker 1: Thunderbolts episode if you want to hear Jason really dig
Speaker 1: deep into this in a really fantastic omnibus. But one
Speaker 1: of our discord users, Giant Asian Man, who I've met
Speaker 1: fantastic comic book lover, he asked a question that was
Speaker 1: basically like the book came out of the shadow of
Speaker 1: Marvel's bankruptcy filing. Obviously the issue was planned and in
Speaker 1: the works, but did that have any effect on its reception?
Speaker 1: So I'm going to do a little brief answer to
Speaker 1: that that yeah, touches on it, And the answer is,
Speaker 1: like the bubble had already like the early nineties when
Speaker 1: Image was founded nineteen ninety three, ninety ninety four, we're
Speaker 1: talking about eight million sales for X Men issue one,
Speaker 1: you know, the Chris Climont, Jim Lee issue Image Comics,
Speaker 1: the death of Superman. These are huge stories, but around
Speaker 1: the mid nineties it just absolutely tanked corporate greedfully supplanted
Speaker 1: kind of creative ambition. The comic book retail sector, which
Speaker 1: had been inflated by years of gimmick covers and variants
Speaker 1: and foil covers and all those things we loved as
Speaker 1: kids and fake promises of their collectability kind of popped
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety six and this massive store closers ensued,
Speaker 1: and a foolish gamble from Marvel, which again we have
Speaker 1: a lot of fun talking about on that whose Standerbot's
Speaker 1: issue saw The publisher turned to Rob Eifeld and Jim Lee,
Speaker 1: who had left found Image Comics, and they were given
Speaker 1: the Avengers and the Fantastic Four with the freedom to
Speaker 1: start a new storyline outside of ongoing Marvel continuity, and
Speaker 1: the Onslaught crossover that we mentioned provided basically an in
Speaker 1: story excuse that resulted in Heroes reborn, a misguided initiative
Speaker 1: that only further deflated confidence in the publisher. During that time,
Speaker 1: cap Irom Manthor and the Fantastic Four were off the table,
Speaker 1: So in the throes of impending bankruptcy and ownership they
Speaker 1: Marvel began to experiment and the most shocking and long
Speaker 1: lasting of that was this Busiac and Bagley Thunderbolts, which
Speaker 1: they were kind of able to do, this completely wild
Speaker 1: swing for the fences. And as we've seen now you know,
Speaker 1: we're in a situation where we're almost you know, decades later.
Speaker 1: It had such an impact that we are having this
Speaker 1: adaptation question mark influence question Mark. It's gonna be interesting
Speaker 1: to see where it led.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you think the reveal that Shield was Hydra
Speaker 2: steals a little bit of this thunderas of the the
Speaker 2: original idea of the thunderbolts, Like if they couldn't obviously
Speaker 2: I think do a one to one adaptation. I think
Speaker 2: because you know, we've already done one of the most
Speaker 2: crazy twists in the MCU, which is that shockingly Shield
Speaker 2: for a number of decades was secretly a neo Hydra,
Speaker 2: neo Nazi organization run by Hydra at the highest levels.
Speaker 1: I think you make a great point. I definitely think
Speaker 1: that's an issue they ran into, and I think that's
Speaker 1: why we're getting this kind of reimagined later stage Thunderbolts.
Speaker 1: And there has been times in the last few years
Speaker 1: where now the Thunderbolts are more of this kind of
Speaker 1: like a suicide squad for Marvel, which I think is
Speaker 1: what they are kind of pushing them towards in this.
Speaker 1: So yeah, but I think the Hydra Cap kind of
Speaker 1: hydro Nazi stuff was so well done in the movies,
Speaker 1: and then we even got that great throwback in you know,
Speaker 1: endgame where Cap says like, Hail Hydra when he's in
Speaker 1: the lift, so he doesn't have to have the fight like,
Speaker 1: so we even get that, So yeah, I do think
Speaker 1: that makes it harder. But I also think that we
Speaker 1: are in an interesting situation with the MCU where we
Speaker 1: are now in a time when the MCU isn't maybe
Speaker 1: being looked at as kind of creatively bankrupt, just as
Speaker 1: the way the comics were being looked at by then,
Speaker 1: So could this be that return. I do think that
Speaker 1: with the new trailers we've seen with Florence Pugh jumping
Speaker 1: off the second tallest building in the world like nine
Speaker 1: times getting her Tom cruise on and the kind of
Speaker 1: a twenty four branding. I think they want us to
Speaker 1: see this as a new era for the MCU, not
Speaker 1: just in storytelling, but also in the way the movies
Speaker 1: are made. So it could be interesting to see if
Speaker 1: Thunderbolts acts and has that same impact as the comic
Speaker 1: did all those years ago.
Speaker 2: Let me ask you this, this being you know, I
Speaker 2: think one of the most impactful in a kind of
Speaker 2: plot shape and marketing way impactful issue to Marvel's success
Speaker 2: in the twenty first century. Do you have any like
Speaker 2: what would be your favorite runs and or issues, let's
Speaker 2: say your Mount Rushmore of nineties Marvel. Oh, and where
Speaker 2: would Thunderbolts land on that Mount Rushmore?
Speaker 1: I think that I think that for the actual like
Speaker 1: story of it, and kind of I would say, like
Speaker 1: the for me, the notion of the Thunderbolts is cooler
Speaker 1: than necessarily maybe the execution though I do remember deeply
Speaker 1: like feeling like it's so important and great. But I
Speaker 1: do think that for me, I can't help it, like
Speaker 1: as a nineties kid, like the number one has to
Speaker 1: be that X Men number one. I just remember so
Speaker 1: deeply it coming out with that trifl cover and the
Speaker 1: connecting issues, and obviously I was like not reading it
Speaker 1: when it first came out because I would have been
Speaker 1: like three, But I was probably reading it two years
Speaker 1: later when I was five or six, and I just
Speaker 1: thought it was the coolest thing in the whole world.
Speaker 1: So that would definitely be up there for me, even
Speaker 1: though ironically as an adult I now know it kind
Speaker 1: of ended my favorite era of X Men, which is
Speaker 1: Chris Clamont's X Men. Other ones I do think the
Speaker 1: Infinity Gauntlets and stuff I Marvel work is yeah, unbelievable,
Speaker 1: and the fact that it's basically like George Pez and
Speaker 1: then Ron Limbs, so it's like people that I just
Speaker 1: love so much. Infinity. You got Infinity Gauntlet ninety ninety one,
Speaker 1: Infinity War ninety two, Infinity Crusade ninety three, which I
Speaker 1: think is fantastically underrated and should definitely be checked out.
Speaker 1: Other ones that I really love, I would say that now,
Speaker 1: especially post Spider Verse and the impact, I would say
Speaker 1: Spider Man twenty ninety nine is up there for me.
Speaker 1: It's I think it's such a different, cool vibe. And
Speaker 1: when you did your omnibus on it. It really like inspired
Speaker 1: me to go back and kind of look at it
Speaker 1: and explore that just how different it was to anything
Speaker 1: that we'd ever really seen before, and the tone and
Speaker 1: it's so extreme and so nineties, which is one of
Speaker 1: my favorite things about the kind of that era.
Speaker 2: I definitely did not think that twenty ninety nine, that
Speaker 2: Spider Man twenty ninety nine would have the impact that
Speaker 2: it has.
Speaker 1: I thought it was cool.
Speaker 2: I definitely don't think we'd still be talking about a
Speaker 2: Spider Man twenty ninety nine thirty years later.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, that's kind of crazy. Also, really any for me,
Speaker 1: I'm a big I'm a big lover of the X Men,
Speaker 1: so all your kind of like you know, New Warriors
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. If we're talking, Yeah, like those
Speaker 1: eras I think were really good. Also, I would say aesthetically,
Speaker 1: and something that I've still loved since then to this
Speaker 1: day is Tom McFarland's Spider Man. I think that is
Speaker 1: some of the best Spider Man we've we've ever had. Also,
Speaker 1: that is, you know, something that we've talked a lot about,
Speaker 1: but you're talking about some of the really great you know,
Speaker 1: comic you're talking about like the Marvel Nights stuff. Some
Speaker 1: of that started in the early, like the late nineties,
Speaker 1: you know, when they were trying to work out what
Speaker 1: would happen. So, like, you know Christopher Priest Black Panther,
Speaker 1: which is just such an iconic reimagining of.
Speaker 2: The character that's up there.
Speaker 1: That's definitely I think that was like a game changer.
Speaker 1: I would also say this is controversial. I'm sorry, guys,
Speaker 1: I just but I do. I loved the Clone Sago
Speaker 1: when I was a kid with Ben Riley. Like, I
Speaker 1: know it's hated, I know the choice is hated, but
Speaker 1: I think that had a huge impact on me. And
Speaker 1: I remember that being another comic where when it was
Speaker 1: kind of revealed this idea that Spider Man had never
Speaker 1: been Spider Man. I was so shocked.
Speaker 2: I just true, it's crazy.
Speaker 1: It's a crazy reveal. Okay, so what are yours?
Speaker 2: I would go? I would go Generation X just Y
Speaker 2: X slash Mutant spin off with a bunch of new
Speaker 2: fun very nineties characters included I Love You, Chamber, Jubilee,
Speaker 2: et cetera.
Speaker 1: I would go Christopher.
Speaker 2: Pries Black Panther because I think it was Yes, we
Speaker 2: don't have the Marv the MCU version of T'Challa and
Speaker 2: the Black Panther about that, and then I think, I
Speaker 2: think the Infinity side, the George, I'll just call it
Speaker 2: the George Peress Saga, Infinity Saga and Ultronunlimited.
Speaker 1: Those two, oh, those two are soga. Yeah. I would
Speaker 1: also say you touched on something with gen X because
Speaker 1: Chamber is one of my old time favorite characters, and also,
Speaker 1: like Chris Pachallo, like what an artist like to me,
Speaker 1: the nineties kind of stuff, and that was during the
Speaker 1: Phalanx Covenant storyline, which is so inherently nineties. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I think those are some good some good
Speaker 1: reads if you guys want to want to check out
Speaker 1: some other nineties stories that honestly still inspiring the MCU.
Speaker 1: I do find it very interesting that we're in an
Speaker 1: era now where those nineties comics, which at the time
Speaker 1: you know, did sell so much, like think about Venom.
Speaker 1: Venom is another they hated and hated Redesclined, But now
Speaker 1: they are shaping these billion dollar the Studios Hope franchises
Speaker 1: in a way that I think nobody could have ever
Speaker 1: really seen. And I think that is a really interesting
Speaker 1: space to be in, especially when a lot of those
Speaker 1: creators are still active. Jim Lee is still there still
Speaker 1: at DC. You know. Rob Liefeld still there, just relaunched
Speaker 1: Young Blood, you know, Mark Civestriet is still just keeping
Speaker 1: it going over it to number one, volume one, like fifteen, Like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's definitely a really interesting time. And to
Speaker 1: have a Thunderbolts comic Thunderbolts movie come out that is
Speaker 1: essentially like weighing on the notion of like is it
Speaker 1: gonna be the movie that saves the MCU? Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: Wolverine Deadpool. It made a billion dollars, but it did
Speaker 1: not set the MCU back on any track. You know,
Speaker 1: it was almost the Elseworld's type story. So it's interesting
Speaker 1: to be in this situation again and see see how
Speaker 1: it shakes out.
Speaker 2: Well, what should we read next? What should we be
Speaker 2: watching next? Let us know the discord. That's it for
Speaker 2: this episode. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: I have a good day well.
Speaker 2: X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Gitsubsion and Rosie
Speaker 2: Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts. Our executive
Speaker 2: producers are Jewell Smith and Aaron Kaufman. Our supervising producer
Speaker 2: is a Boo zafar Our. Producers are Carmen Laurent and
Speaker 2: Mia Taylor. Our theme song is by Brian Basquez.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Soul Rubin and Chris Laude, Kenny Goodman
Speaker 1: and Heidi our discord moderator.