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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Kate, how are you doing this week?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. Paul, how are you?

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Speaker 2: I am doing very well.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's it. We have to keep get into this case. No,

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Speaker 1: we're talking. We have to jump right in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you kind of ended on a detail last week

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Speaker 2: that I'm going, Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: I know. I love a good cliffhanger. Boy, I tried

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Speaker 1: to do that in tenfold all the time. I love

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Speaker 1: a good cliffhanger. So that keeps people coming back for more.

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Speaker 1: So let's summarize this case. I'll summarize it. Real quick

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Speaker 1: and then we'll jump right into it. So we're talking

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Speaker 1: about eighteen ninety six, Ohio. A woman named Bessie Little,

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Speaker 1: who was twenty three, was dating it sounds like openly

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Speaker 1: a more affluent man named Albert Frantz, who was a

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Speaker 1: few years younger, who came from a wealthy family in

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Speaker 1: the area. Bessie's body is found in early September floating

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Speaker 1: in a river. The corner does a couple of exams

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Speaker 1: and says, nothing's amiss. She took her own life and

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Speaker 1: that's the end of this. And the police chief is

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Speaker 1: not convinced. He finds out that Bessie and Albert were

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Speaker 1: having sex before marriage, which was a huge no no

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Speaker 1: in the late eighteen hundreds. Her parents found out and

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Speaker 1: booted her out of the house until the two got married.

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Speaker 1: She was distraught, and she said to Albert's father, you

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Speaker 1: must make him marry me. He has committed some sort

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Speaker 1: of a crime against me. Now, whether or not that

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Speaker 1: was that she had been pregnant at some point, whether

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Speaker 1: or not it was because they had premaral sex and

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Speaker 1: no one would marry her. There's a litany of things

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Speaker 1: that she felt like she deserved to be properly married.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like Albert had confessed to a reverend and

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Speaker 1: a judge that he saw Bessie take her own life

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Speaker 1: and he disposed of her body by dropping her over

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Speaker 1: the bridge. Again, the police chief is unconvinced. He thinks

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Speaker 1: this could be murder, but he's tired of the coroner

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Speaker 1: and the coroner saying that this is a suicide. And

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Speaker 1: so after finding blood on the bridge, which of course

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Speaker 1: we know we can't identify. But after we find blood

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Speaker 1: on the bridge, the police chief brings in a police

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Speaker 1: surgeon who then examines Bessie's body. It doesn't seem like

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Speaker 1: Bessie was pregnant at the time of her death, but

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Speaker 1: he does find something interesting, which is the thing you

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Speaker 1: were talking about. He finds two gunshot wounds near Bessie's

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Speaker 1: right ear. So i'll give you all of the details,

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Speaker 1: kind of all at once. He can't recover whole bullets

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Speaker 1: because they've been shattered by bone. Really a bone can

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Speaker 1: shatter a bullet, yeah.

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Speaker 2: You know, and it depends on the type of bullet

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Speaker 2: that is being used. I don't know if you have

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Speaker 2: that information, where these just led slugs or these jacketed

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Speaker 2: bullets I do.

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Speaker 1: This is what he says. He manages to extract enough

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Speaker 1: lead particles to suggest that two thirty two caliber bullets

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Speaker 1: had been fired into Bessie's head, either by her or

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Speaker 1: someone else.

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Speaker 2: Okay, the bullets are traveling at such a high rate

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Speaker 2: of speed, is that when they hit bone, which is

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Speaker 2: a hard substance, they do deform. They continue to press

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Speaker 2: through the bone, going into in Bessie's case, into her brain.

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Speaker 2: But that impact can cause these bullets to fragment. And

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Speaker 2: typically what I've seen is if they're just lead bullets,

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Speaker 2: the lead deforms dramatically, impacting the skull and you could

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Speaker 2: have several pieces just kind of break off. When they're

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Speaker 2: jacketed bullets, where you have a kind of like this

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Speaker 2: copper alloy coating over the lead core that jacketing, it's

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Speaker 2: so thin that when the bullet deforms, it often does

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Speaker 2: fragment into many pieces. And in modern times we will

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Speaker 2: take X rays of the victim's bodies of their head

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Speaker 2: if they've been shot in the head and it looks

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Speaker 2: like snow. Some types of these bullets will fracture so much,

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Speaker 2: have so many tiny metal fragments inside the person's brain

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Speaker 2: that they've just fractured that much, so that's not surprising

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Speaker 2: to me. But I mean it's informative though that they

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Speaker 2: recover two bullets and you have two entry wounds to

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Speaker 2: the back of her right ear.

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Speaker 1: Now, let me tell you what he says about exactly

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Speaker 1: the location of this happening. Okay, So doctor Weaver says

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Speaker 1: that these two thirty two caliber bullets that he believes

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Speaker 1: were fired into her head, they had passed through the brain,

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Speaker 1: struck the other side of the skull on the inside,

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Speaker 1: perforated it, and lodged between the skull and the scalp

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Speaker 1: on the left, lower and back part of the head,

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Speaker 1: having entered from the right side. I don't understand any

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Speaker 1: of that. So does that mean through her right ear

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Speaker 1: onto the other side of her head?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty much exactly. It sounds like it's right

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Speaker 2: behind the right ear. The bullets have a trajectory, you know,

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Speaker 2: right to left, passing through the inside of her head,

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Speaker 2: through her brain, and then actually pass through the skull

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Speaker 2: on the other side. And they either have lost enough

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Speaker 2: energy from passing through all these structures in her head

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Speaker 2: that the scalp is strong enough to basically catch it.

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Speaker 2: They don't have enough energy to push through the scalp

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Speaker 2: and exit out the other side of her head. But

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Speaker 2: it also could mean that you have what we call

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Speaker 2: a short exit to where let's say she's laying with

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Speaker 2: her left side, her left side of her head up

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Speaker 2: against the floor, up against a piece of furniture or

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Speaker 2: something that you could have the bullet pass through, and

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Speaker 2: as it's trying to push out the other side of

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Speaker 2: her head, that object her head is against is kind

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Speaker 2: of preventing it from being able to actually penetrate through

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Speaker 2: that scalp. So either circumstance is possible, but it's significant

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Speaker 2: you have to bullets passing through her brain in a

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Speaker 2: location that is not indicative of suicide. And this was

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Speaker 2: absolutely missed by that first pathologist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why I want to come back to the

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Speaker 1: six days in the water. Can you now see how

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Speaker 1: it's possible that and I don't know how big a

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Speaker 1: thirty two caliber bullet is, Can you see how it

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Speaker 1: would be possible with bloating or anything else that would

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Speaker 1: happen in the water, how this inept corner could actually

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Speaker 1: miss that or are we back to the quote on

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Speaker 1: the take corner?

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Speaker 2: I imagine Bessie had fairly long hair.

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Speaker 1: Hold on a second, I never thought you would request

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Speaker 1: a drawing. I never really think that you seeing the

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Speaker 1: victim or the perpetrator the offender is helpful. But this

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Speaker 1: is an artist's rendering of Bessie. Now her hair is up,

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Speaker 1: but yes, she looks like she would have long hair

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Speaker 1: if it were down.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So obviously with the two bullet entry wounds and

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Speaker 2: no exit, you know where her hair is is behind

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Speaker 2: her right ear. That's where the blood would be very

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Speaker 2: apparent if she had just been shot and left, let's say,

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Speaker 2: on the surface of the bridge versus tossed in the water.

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Speaker 2: If she's floating in the water for six days, I

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Speaker 2: can see where the blood would be washed off. And

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Speaker 2: she has enough hair where I'm assuming these bullet entry

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Speaker 2: wounds are that that hair would disguise those bullet entries.

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Speaker 2: So this is where the pathologist, if he's just doing

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Speaker 2: a superficial visual exam, he could potentially miss these entry wounds. Now,

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Speaker 2: when bullets pass through your head, they do other damage.

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Speaker 2: Thirty two small caliber, so they may not do a

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Speaker 2: lot of damage, but oftentimes the orbital plate is fractured

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Speaker 2: kind of at the base of the brain. The eyes

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Speaker 2: will look black and be very swollen, you know, and

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Speaker 2: that's an indicator, Oh, there's been some massive trauma inside

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Speaker 2: this person's head, even though you don't see the injuries,

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Speaker 2: like if they've been hit on the back of the

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Speaker 2: head with a baseball bat or something. But with the

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Speaker 2: absence of any other type of jury like the black eyes,

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Speaker 2: I could see where these two smaller entry wounds that

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Speaker 2: are covered up by her hair mass would be missed

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Speaker 2: if somebody's just looking at her. But this is where

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Speaker 2: you have to do a thorough examination.

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Speaker 1: Right and with this information, police Chief Ferrell is really

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Speaker 1: trying to figure this out. His idea, which is pretty sexist,

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Speaker 1: I think, is that I don't think this woman is

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Speaker 1: strong enough to hold a thirty two caliber gun and

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Speaker 1: doesn't know enough about firearms to be able to fire

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Speaker 1: the revolver twice into her own head. So let's remove

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Speaker 1: the idea that these are two shots, because you and

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Speaker 1: I have talked about how it is possible if you're

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Speaker 1: taking your own life, to get two shots off before

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Speaker 1: it happens. But the idea that this woman isn't strong

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Speaker 1: enough and doesn't know enough about firearms, what do you

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Speaker 1: think about this statement, besides it being totally sexist.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, now that's a bunch of bs. A young child

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Speaker 2: can pull the trigger on a thirty two caliber weapon.

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Speaker 2: That's just nonsense. It's more of assessing now the circumstances,

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Speaker 2: because you have this dead woman's boyfriend, Albert saying, well,

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Speaker 2: she committed suicide and I disposed of her body, and

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Speaker 2: now you have two shots under her head. Ye have

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Speaker 2: blood that's on the surface of the bridge. Is she's

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Speaker 2: shooting herself in the head and still maintains sufficient mobility

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Speaker 2: to get up and over the fence on the bridge

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Speaker 2: to get into the river. You start stacking the various

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Speaker 2: facts of the case, and it becomes less and less

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Speaker 2: likely that this is suicide and more likely this is homicide.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you, because it's vague about where

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Speaker 1: the bullets entered, it says near the ear. If she's

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Speaker 1: in experience with a firearm, and she really is putting

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Speaker 1: her right hand, has a gun to her head, and

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Speaker 1: she's trying to pull the trigger twice, and maybe Albert

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Speaker 1: will eventually say, oh, yes, I was with her and

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Speaker 1: I saw all this happen. Maybe in her haste she's

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Speaker 1: pulling it twice and not hitting what we would typically

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Speaker 1: say would be the temple, which is where we see

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Speaker 1: a lot of suicides happen. Can you glean anything from

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Speaker 1: what he's saying, pass through the brain struck on the

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Speaker 1: side of the skull. Would one or two inches really

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Speaker 1: make that big of a difference as far as a

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Speaker 1: ability to pull the trigger twice?

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Speaker 2: You know, when you start talking about gunshots that are

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Speaker 2: at that level of the brain, you are now having

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Speaker 2: the bullets pass through, I mean, the most critical structures

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Speaker 2: that are connecting, you know, the brain, whether or not

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Speaker 2: the brain stem has been injured. But fundamentally, this is

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Speaker 2: even less likely that she would have maintained the capability

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Speaker 2: after that first shot to pull the second shot, the

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Speaker 2: shot to the temple. There's a greater likelihood that you

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Speaker 2: could maintain consciousness motor skills after a shot, especially with

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Speaker 2: a smaller caliber like a thirty two. You know, you

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Speaker 2: think about Phineas Cage, a classic psychology textbook example, a

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Speaker 2: railroad worker who had a iron rod driven up, you know,

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Speaker 2: underneath his jaw, through his frontal cortex, you know, and

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Speaker 2: he never lost consciousness. You know, So when it comes

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Speaker 2: down to evaluating Okay, is this something that Bessie could

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Speaker 2: have done. It's really having that expert pathologist taking a

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Speaker 2: look at where the bullet passed through, what brain structures

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Speaker 2: were injured, and assessing whether or not she could have

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Speaker 2: maintained the capability after the first shot to pull the

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Speaker 2: trigger on the second shot. And I would say, if

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Speaker 2: you're talking about at the ear level and the structures

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Speaker 2: in the brain, these bullets went all the way through

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Speaker 2: to the other side of the inside of her skull,

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Speaker 2: I would say, no, Okay, I think this is more

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Speaker 2: indicative of somebody else pulling the trigger twice.

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Speaker 1: Because am I wrong in thinking that in eighteen ninety

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Speaker 1: six this is not any kind of an automatic weapon.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what actually has to happen. She pulls the trigger,

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Speaker 1: and in order to do another shot, does she have

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Speaker 1: to recock this gun?

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Speaker 2: It all depends on the make and model of the gun. Okay,

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Speaker 2: let's just say it's a standard revolver. If the trigger

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Speaker 2: is what we call double action, so when you pull

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Speaker 2: the trigger back to shoot the gun, the mechanism of

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Speaker 2: the revolver also cocks the hammer back, and then once

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Speaker 2: the trigger reaches a certain point, the internal mechanism allows

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Speaker 2: the hammer to drop to fire the shot. When you

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Speaker 2: pull the trigger again, after that, it rotates the cylinder

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Speaker 2: to get the next live round into the chamber, and

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Speaker 2: it repeats the process. So with a standard revolver, the shooter,

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Speaker 2: if it's Bessie, would have to consciously pull this trigger twice.

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Speaker 2: Some guns are different, you know, and there's so many

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Speaker 2: different permutations of firearms out there. It's hard to say

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Speaker 2: for sure. In this case without knowing more what Bessie

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Speaker 2: would have had to go through in order to shoot herself.

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Speaker 1: Twice, it sounds like a standard revolver from information we

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Speaker 1: get later. Right now, we'll operate under the assumption that

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Speaker 1: it would be very difficult for her to get two

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Speaker 1: shots off.

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Speaker 2: From what I am hearing, I think that is a

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Speaker 2: correct assumption to make.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So now police Chief Ferrell is just trying to

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Speaker 1: build a case because he's convinced us as murder based

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Speaker 1: on these two bullet holes that he's been told are

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Speaker 1: there in her head. They take her head and they

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Speaker 1: put it in a jar that's filled with alcohol, which

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Speaker 1: is how they would have preserved it. It's probably cheap whiskey.

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Speaker 1: Is everything I've ever read. It's always been very cheap whiskey,

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Speaker 1: and they would preserve entire bodies for dissection and anatomy

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Speaker 1: classes using very cheap whiskey, and they would just put

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Speaker 1: it into a oak barrel and preserve the bodies. That

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Speaker 1: way head was preserved. And we'll find out why in

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Speaker 1: a little bit. But just that's an odd little note.

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Speaker 1: That would be how you would preserve a body. Then

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Speaker 1: what would you do now? I guess refrigerate it if

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Speaker 1: there's something that's happening six months down the road and

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Speaker 1: you feel like you need to preserve this for some reason.

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Speaker 2: Well, during a standard autopsy, the pathologists are taking samples

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Speaker 2: of a wide variety of tissues in the body, you know,

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Speaker 2: for histological analysis. Sometimes in homicides, there's going to be

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Speaker 2: certain parts of the body that will be preserved in

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Speaker 2: a sample jar, and they're using formuline, another chemical that

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Speaker 2: basically ceases, you know, any type of bacterial activities. These

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Speaker 2: cells haven't been disturbed due to the preservation process. I guess,

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Speaker 2: is what I'm trying to say, Whiskey, you know, I

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Speaker 2: guess in many ways, maybe that's what I'm doing when

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Speaker 2: I drink my bourbon, as I'm preserving myself from the

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Speaker 2: inside out. How's that?

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Speaker 1: And with that, we're going to move on to a

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Speaker 1: different piece of evidence. Okay, The chief of police is

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Speaker 1: now investigating a little bit more victimology, a little bit

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Speaker 1: more about his now suspect turned what we think it

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Speaker 1: will be an offender. He learns that France's story has

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Speaker 1: changed in a pretty big way, because what he's saying

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Speaker 1: is that, okay, I admit it. We took a ride

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Speaker 1: in the buggy together that night. She got very upset

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Speaker 1: because I told her we were going to break up

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Speaker 1: and I wasn't going to marry her. She pulls out

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Speaker 1: a revolver and then shoots herself in the head and

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Speaker 1: she died instantly. He panics. He says, I don't think

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Speaker 1: anybody's gonna believe me when I say that this was

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Speaker 1: a suicide. So to protect himself from false accusations, he

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Speaker 1: threw Bessie's body off of the bridge and into the water,

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Speaker 1: and he tosses the gun into the water. Also, now,

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Speaker 1: before you comment on that, because we knew this was coming,

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Speaker 1: he had eventually said okay, I was with her. The

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Speaker 1: reason that this comes about is that Chief Ferrel believes

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Speaker 1: he can match some buggy tracks that were left near

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Speaker 1: the bridge, and he thinks that he can match them

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Speaker 1: to Albert's buggy. So he gets to Albert Francis's house

298
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Speaker 1: and finds out there is no buggy, there is no horse,

299
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Speaker 1: and in fact there's no more stable because Albert has

300
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Speaker 1: burned all of it down, including the horse, in a

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Speaker 1: fire the day after Bessie went missing at Minnie's house.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not suspicious at all, No, not at all.

303
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Speaker 1: He's gotten rid of buggy evidence and any kind of

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Speaker 1: clothes that she was wearing that might have blood on it,

305
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,159
Speaker 1: any kind of evidence where there's blood, he's now effectively

306
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Speaker 1: gotten rid of it.

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Speaker 2: So yes, in essence, you know, as you were telling

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Speaker 2: me about this scenario of him saying that she shot

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Speaker 2: herself inside the buggy. Okay, now this is the crime scene.

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Speaker 2: Now it's so important to get access to that crime

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Speaker 2: scene to see what evidence remains. Well, he's destroyed that

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Speaker 2: with the fire. He's destroyed the ability for the chief

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Speaker 2: to possibly match the buggy tracks or the horse tracks

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Speaker 2: found at the bridge to the buggy and the horse. Now,

315
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Speaker 2: from my perspective, it's well, what else is inside that

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Speaker 2: buggy that still exists Albert himself and the clothes that

317
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Speaker 2: he was wearing. And now, is there any backspatter coming

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Speaker 2: back from these entry wounds? Is he close enough to

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Speaker 2: her where you know, maybe on the sleeve of his

320
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Speaker 2: coat that he's wearing, Do I now see minute particles

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Speaker 2: of blood droplets or blood and brain matter that backspattered

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Speaker 2: onto him? So you know, of course the chief probably

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Speaker 2: isn't aware of that, but that would be critical evidence

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Speaker 2: to look for today under a search warrant, you go

325
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,800
Speaker 2: through all his wardrobe and maybe you get lucky and

326
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Speaker 2: find something that has blood and or brain tissue or

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Speaker 2: even what we call shattered hair on it and get

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Speaker 2: that examined. And today, of course we could do DNA

329
00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,159
Speaker 2: to show him this is from Bessie, and this is

330
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Speaker 2: showing that he's in close proximity to her at the

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Speaker 2: time she's receiving these shots.

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Speaker 1: Chief Pherrel does not have that kind of luck in

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Speaker 1: this case. So first, let me set the scene for

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Speaker 1: this fire, which just sounds crazy to me. There were

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00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,800
Speaker 1: people who saw his stable on fire. They said he

336
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Speaker 1: was acting oddly. He was outside in his shirt sleeves,

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Speaker 1: which would have been unusual. He had been wearing a suit,

338
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Speaker 1: as most men would have in this time period, and

339
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Speaker 1: he was holding an axe and forbidding anyone to come

340
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,600
Speaker 1: close to the stable to help him put out the fire.

341
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Speaker 1: He said a man had even said, give me the axe,

342
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Speaker 1: I will bust down the stable door and save at

343
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Speaker 1: least your horse, and Albert refused to hand over the axe,

344
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Speaker 1: and he said that the horse and the buggy weren't

345
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Speaker 1: worth anyone's life. It sounds like he went off the rails.

346
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Speaker 1: And finally the whole thing burns down, and by the

347
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,920
Speaker 1: time she Ferrel gets out there, they scour this stable

348
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,440
Speaker 1: and what's left of the buggy, which is not very much,

349
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Speaker 1: and they find a few pieces of a man's suit

350
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Speaker 1: that has been severely burned, but that's about it. And

351
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,600
Speaker 1: the same thing with the river. They really have no

352
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 1: luck finding evidence, and it looks like he really tried

353
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Speaker 1: to dig this up.

354
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,919
Speaker 2: And they never found the gun that he said he

355
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:23,920
Speaker 2: tossed into the river.

356
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Speaker 1: Right, listen to this. So this is what I mean

357
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Speaker 1: by this guy. Chief Ferrell goes above and beyond, particularly

358
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Speaker 1: for a man in the eighteen hundreds who's working on

359
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,880
Speaker 1: a case. So this is what he does. He decides

360
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,479
Speaker 1: that he wants to find that stupid murder weapon. And

361
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Speaker 1: Franz had said, I tossed the gun into the river.

362
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Speaker 1: I didn't want to see it anymore. She had taken

363
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Speaker 1: her own life with it. So he fills rowboats with

364
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:55,879
Speaker 1: magnets and they drag the magnets on ropes across the

365
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:57,159
Speaker 1: river for days.

366
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Speaker 2: Huh.

367
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Speaker 1: I just thought, God, Chief pararewell. I mean, my goodness,

368
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,360
Speaker 1: have what an incredible feat to try. And of course

369
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,560
Speaker 1: there's no luck. It's terrible.

370
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 2: I've actually never even heard of that technique. To locate

371
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,560
Speaker 2: a firearm that's been thrown in a body of water,

372
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:16,399
Speaker 2: typically we send divers down.

373
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Speaker 1: He did that too, Okay, So then when that doesn't work,

374
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Speaker 1: he hires a professional diver and a champion swimmer to look.

375
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 1: But of course it's a river which would have been murky,

376
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,280
Speaker 1: and all kinds of animals and all kinds of vegetation,

377
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,199
Speaker 1: and just no luck. And I will tell you I

378
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,360
Speaker 1: had a family who read American Sherlock and then emailed

379
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,400
Speaker 1: me and told me about their own forensic scientist who

380
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,480
Speaker 1: had been lost in history, who sounded fascinating. And I

381
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 1: remember reading up on him and reading a case where

382
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 1: he was determined to find a gun, and he had

383
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:57,119
Speaker 1: the police build a small dam in a river to

384
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 1: collect the water to stop it from mood down a damn.

385
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,639
Speaker 1: He built a damn, and he found it. He found

386
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,640
Speaker 1: the gun. It was like two miles down from where

387
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:06,479
Speaker 1: it had been dumped.

388
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 2: Wow.

389
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 1: So I love an investigator who goes above and beyond,

390
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 1: and that's where we are with Chief Ferrell. He is

391
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 1: trying everything possible because Paul, someone heard that night someone

392
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 1: exclaim murder from the bridge, and then they heard two gunshots.

393
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Speaker 1: So now he was saying absolutely this was murder. And

394
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 1: by the way, screaming murder was very much an eighteen

395
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 1: hundreds thing. I can't imagine anyone would say that now,

396
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 1: But screaming a loud murder, murder, that's just something everybody

397
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 1: did in the eighteen hundreds and a good crime story.

398
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,920
Speaker 2: So is the presumption that the person who's screaming murder

399
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:47,439
Speaker 2: as Bessie before she's killed.

400
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 1: I think that's it. Yes, And it seemed like a

401
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,359
Speaker 1: woman's voice, but it was a screech more than anything else.

402
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 1: And of course why would Albert say that if she's

403
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 1: taking her own life. I guess maybe he's trying to

404
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 1: get attention, but he never says that he screamed murder

405
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 1: or anybody else did. Those were just witnesses near the bridge,

406
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,719
Speaker 1: but no one actually saw anything. They heard gunshots, they

407
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: heard someone say murder. They didn't hear a splash or

408
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:26,880
Speaker 1: anything like that. So Chief Ferrell then gets a big lead.

409
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 1: He goes to a local gun shop. He is canvassing everywhere.

410
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,640
Speaker 1: He goes to a local gun shop and says, did

411
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 1: anybody buy a gun over the last couple of months?

412
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 1: And the owner says, yes, someone bought a thirty two

413
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 1: revolver and he identifies Albert Frantz as a person who

414
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 1: bought it. Now, Franz does not know this guy. The

415
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: guy doesn't know him. It's an identification, and Franz says,

416
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 1: I never did that, No, and that's it. It's a

417
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 1: case of mistaken identity. So if they don't really know

418
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,640
Speaker 1: each other, and he says this happened, Franz came in

419
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 1: three weeks ago. Is that a reliable identification? You think

420
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 1: just a random customer coming in looking for a gun.

421
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 2: During this canvas that the Chief is doing, you have

422
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,199
Speaker 2: this witness that is identifying Albert as the purchaser. Of

423
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 2: the gun. Is he picking Albert out of photos? Is

424
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 2: he pulling out a piece of paper and saying, here's

425
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 2: the signature of the purchaser of the gun. That's going

426
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 2: to kind of all add into how to assess how

427
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,360
Speaker 2: much weight to put on the reliability of that statement.

428
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 2: But you basically have a witness that is saying that

429
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 2: Albert Franz bought a weapon that is the same caliber

430
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:48,199
Speaker 2: and same type that was used in Bessie's death. This

431
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 2: is just going to be a bit of information that,

432
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 2: of course the chief is using as he's building his

433
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 2: case against Albert, but it's also going to be something

434
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 2: that would ultimately be put in front of a jury,

435
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 2: and it's the jurors who will assess how much weight

436
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 2: they will put on it.

437
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 1: And Ferrell hasn't even arrested him yet. He's still trying

438
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 1: to figure out if he has enough evidence. He's being

439
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: very conservative, which is again really unusual for an investigator

440
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds. I mean you really, I think

441
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: just the confirmation from the gun shop owner would have

442
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 1: been enough for a lot of investigators. But he's doing

443
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 1: his due diligence, certainly not photos in eighteen ninety six.

444
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: I've never even read about lineups happening in eighteen ninety six.

445
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: I think it would be more dragging France down there

446
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: and having him stand in front of the gunshop owner

447
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: and saying is this him? Or having him hide and

448
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: be able to see France out in the open. I

449
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: don't think there's anything professional about it. It's just do

450
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: you recognize this guy? So nothing organized, I would say,

451
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think of all of the customers.

452
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: I don't think your case should hinge on this gun

453
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 1: shop owner being able to positively identify him, and he's not.

454
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 1: At least he's gathering more information.

455
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 2: And we know that that type of in person identification

456
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 2: is extremely prejudicial. Imagine being the witness and now you

457
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 2: have law enforcement saying is this the guy? That witness

458
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 2: oftentimes feels compelled to say yes, yeah, They've brought him

459
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 2: in front of me, so there must be a reason

460
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 2: why they chose that guy. And that's something that is

461
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 2: very much frowned upon today, or should be.

462
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 1: And my impression is is that information came a little

463
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: bit later, where you know, everybody in town knew about this,

464
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: they knew who the suspect was, They at least knew

465
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: who her boyfriend was, so right, I would toss that out,

466
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: but it is an interesting piece of information. Here, to

467
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: me is the most interesting piece. Well, there's two most

468
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: interesting pieces coming up. Here's one of them. She Ferrell

469
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 1: does some more digging and talks to family friends, talks

470
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,719
Speaker 1: to friends of Albert Franz, and they find out that

471
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: he has a girlfriend and her name is Molly Cart

472
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,439
Speaker 1: and she had actually received a letter from him on

473
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: the day that Bessie died. It was a love letter,

474
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: and the friends say that as far as they knew,

475
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 1: Albert really was courting Mollie. He really really liked her,

476
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: he wanted to be involved more heavily with her. And

477
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 1: at this point Albert has hired some defense attorneys, of course,

478
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 1: because he's assuming he's about to get arrested, and the

479
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 1: defense attorneys say that's just not true. Maybe he was flording,

480
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 1: maybe he sent a little love letter here and there,

481
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: but he was in love with Bessie and his family

482
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: had said, well, you're too young to get married. Let's

483
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: just wait. You're only twenty years old, and that was it.

484
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 1: So he contends, I don't care who says that I

485
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: was in love with someone else. I was in love

486
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: with Bessie. I never would have killed her. I didn't

487
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: want to see her die, and I was distraught when

488
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:51,719
Speaker 1: she took her own life and scared.

489
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 2: But this is just another aspect in evaluating Albert as

490
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 2: a suspect. He's got Bessie who is in essence threatening

491
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 2: him and his family if he doesn't marry her. He

492
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 2: possibly has a girlfriend that maybe he wants to spend

493
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 2: some time with, but knows that if Bessie follows through

494
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 2: with her threats to force him to marry that he

495
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 2: won't be able to pursue a relationship with Mollie. So

496
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 2: this is where we build into Okay, there appears to

497
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 2: be motive for Albert to move on from Bessie, and

498
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 2: we know that there's easier ways in killing the person

499
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 2: to do that, but sometimes people will commit homicide because

500
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: they think that's the only way to get out of

501
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 2: the situation.

502
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: Well, we'll have even more information coming down the pipeline here.

503
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: Now Chief Ferrell has had enough. He says there's enough

504
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: to bring charges against Albert. He arrests him, and Albert

505
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: goes on trial for murder on December fourteenth of eighteen

506
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: ninety six. This is pretty quick. So she was found

507
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: in early September, three months which seems pretty fast, but

508
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: he worked very quickly on gathering all of his evidence.

509
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: Albert denies it sticks with his story that she died

510
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: by suicide, and prosecutors say that's bs. And they do

511
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: something that I think is I don't know, I wonder

512
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: from you if this is something that would happen today.

513
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 1: So you remember that they preserved her head in whiskey

514
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,719
Speaker 1: in alcohol. They present the head to the jury and

515
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: they use it to point to to what they perceived

516
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: to be bullet holes in this head floating in alcohol.

517
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: And here's a quote from the newspaper, which I'm sure

518
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: is very accurate. The jar containing the head was placed

519
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: on a table directly in front of the jury, and

520
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: some of the members looked as though they wished it

521
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: anywhere else on earth. No kidding, Yeah, that seems like

522
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: something that could backfire. I mean, what if you discussed

523
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: this panel of men, it's all men.

524
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 2: Well, this is where even to images of the victims

525
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 2: are heavily argued in front of a judge as to

526
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 2: what will be allowed to be seen in front of

527
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 2: the jury, because the graphic nature of death of autopsies

528
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 2: is perceived as possibly being very very prejudicial against the defendant,

529
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 2: because the jurors are going to go, he did that

530
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 2: to her, and so the defense often makes very strong

531
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 2: motions against anything that is graphic in nature. There is

532
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 2: no way I could ever see in courts today where

533
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 2: a victim's head floating in a jar would be allowed

534
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 2: in court.

535
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: Terrible.

536
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 2: There's better ways in order to present the evidence than

537
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 2: doing that, and that's just so disgraceful to the victim,

538
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 2: the victims loved ones who are probably present in court.

539
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, France's team is really trying to insist that she

540
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: could have shot herself twice. There are dueling experts, which

541
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: we've talked about can be problematic for a jury. Who

542
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: do I believe there are all these people in white

543
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: coats saying opposite things. This is something I need to

544
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: talk to you about because we haven't really talked about

545
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: this forensic technique before. There is the secretary of the

546
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: local fireboard testifies because the prosecutor wants to prove that

547
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: France was covering up evidence by setting the stable on fire,

548
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: along with his horse and his buggy, which were present

549
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 1: during this death, and he brings in this man from

550
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: the local fireboard who says that he believed that it

551
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: was He called it incendiarism. Is that right? Is that

552
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 1: a word?

553
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 2: I haven't heard it. That word? You know, of course,

554
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 2: incendiary device?

555
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: No, you know this is incendiarism.

556
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 2: Andrism is well indicating that it was basically purposely lit arson.

557
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: But the prosecutor said, can you please elaborate, this is

558
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: his witness, can you please elaborate on the conclusion. But

559
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,239
Speaker 1: the judge says no. And the judge says, you know,

560
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: this is purely based on your observation. It's not a

561
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: proven fact because arsen and forensics were not something that

562
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: were considered reliable. Unless I suppose you found a gas

563
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: can at the scene. There was no way to prove

564
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: really then whether or not this was arson or an

565
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: accidental fire no electricity of course at the time. Are

566
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: there any techniques involved in arson investigations that you think

567
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:49,719
Speaker 1: could be brought legitimately in front of Adulbert hearing as

568
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: an argument from a defense attorney saying this is not

569
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: valid evidence. This is not a good technique to use.

570
00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 2: I mean, this is a whole discipline unto itself. So

571
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 2: arson investigators are very well trained. You know, there's so

572
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,479
Speaker 2: many studies that have been done to show how fires

573
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 2: are started as well as how they move through a

574
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 2: particular structure. The way the burn occurred can be interpreted,

575
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,959
Speaker 2: you know, to be able to point towards yes, you know,

576
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 2: this appears to be where the origin of the fire was.

577
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 2: What is at that original It appears that there's a

578
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,719
Speaker 2: small electrical appliance, you know, maybe this was just an

579
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 2: accidental or you collect debris from that origin, you send

580
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 2: it to the lab and we do what's called accelerant

581
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 2: analysis where we look for the volatile chemicals that are

582
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 2: present there. And different flammable chemicals such as gasoline or

583
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 2: kerosene have different volatile components present. Back in the day

584
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 2: when we were doing arson analysis within the lab, the

585
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 2: forensic scientists that did that work, you know, you know

586
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 2: which flammables have certain chemicals in there using this gas chromatography.

587
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 2: So there is bona fide science behind it, but it

588
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 2: is something that requires an expert to interpret and sometimes

589
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 2: they can't determine, you know, origins of fire or detect

590
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 2: incendiary devices or accelerants.

591
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: Well, it was useless in this case. The judge squashed

592
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,879
Speaker 1: it and said, now this is this is just your

593
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,879
Speaker 1: opinion and it's not very valid. And luckily the prosecutor's

594
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: case didn't hinge so much on that. Here is the

595
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: big kicker to this case as far as I'm concerned,

596
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 1: and this really speaks to motive. Now, if we go

597
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: through the motives right now, they've had premarital sex. Doesn't

598
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: look like she was pregnant at the time of her death.

599
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: She really wants to get married because it sounds like

600
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: he wronged her in her mind, and she wants to

601
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: be married. It's proper her parents kicked her out. She

602
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: needs to be properly married. It sounds like he could

603
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: have been courting another woman, and it also sounds like

604
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: this might have been from Albert's point of view, the

605
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 1: end of their relationship. So here's the kicker. There's a

606
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: local doctor named doctor Francis, and he testifies that he

607
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: examined Bessie a couple of months before she died in July,

608
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: not close to when she died a few months before

609
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: she came to his office with Albert as a couple,

610
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: and doctor Francis said she was pregnant. Now we remember

611
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: doctor Weaver said she was not pregnant when she died.

612
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 1: Would there be any telltale science that she at one

613
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 1: point had been pregnant, because then we have to talk

614
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 1: about whether she miscarried or had an abortion. But doctor

615
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: Francis is certain she was pregnant in July.

616
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 2: It does he say how far along she was.

617
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 1: He didn't say how far along, but it must have

618
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: been far enough along for him to be able to

619
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 1: tell doing a basic exam, not using a sonogram. I mean,

620
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: I don't think she was fifteen weeks long or anything.

621
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 2: And this was several months prior to her death.

622
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. It was in July, so August, September,

623
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 1: two months.

624
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, you know what telltale signs would

625
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 2: be within her body that could be interpreted by the

626
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 2: pathologist if she had miscarried, if there had been an abortion.

627
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 2: I think that there may have been some injuries, internal

628
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 2: injuries that could possibly have been present. But this is

629
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 2: way outside of my wheelhouse for sure. I really don't know.

630
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: Here's where the abortion thing comes in, doctor Francis said

631
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: during this conversation. When he says, Bessie, you're pregnant, Albert

632
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 1: jumped in and alluded to the idea that he would

633
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: like her to have an abortion, but Albert never says

634
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: to doctor Francis, can you do it? Or he never

635
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 1: says can you give me a referral? Of course this

636
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: would have been illegal. Can you give me a referral

637
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 1: to someone who could do it? So the idea is

638
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: that she was pregnant in July, when she's dead in September,

639
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 1: she wasn't. Either way, it sounds like she either miscarried

640
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: or they ended up finding someone to do an abortion.

641
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: So either way, this makes her a very high risk victim,

642
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 1: which I did not think she was at the beginning

643
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: of this story. Now I feel like the picture is

644
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: really coming in. He's gotten this woman pregnant, he doesn't

645
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: necessarily want to be with her. He has his eye

646
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: on someone else. And now it seems to me I

647
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: might be a little bit more convinced about this being

648
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 1: murder and not a suicide.

649
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm convinced this is homicide.

650
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know you were convinced three pages ago.

651
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 2: You know, when I start talking about an investigation. Early

652
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 2: on an investigation, of course you have many leads, many

653
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 2: tendrils that you're following. But then as information comes in

654
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,720
Speaker 2: is as you know, lab results come in, as statements

655
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: are made, et cetera. All of a sudden, some of

656
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 2: these tendrils start to line up. And then pretty soon

657
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 2: I use this term stacking. You know, now are to

658
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 2: see circumstances stack on top of each other. The physical

659
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 2: evidence is supporting the circumstances, and a case gets built

660
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 2: based on this stacking. And as you are telling this story,

661
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 2: that is what I was seeing, is that it really

662
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 2: started stacking towards this being a homicide. And many of

663
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 2: these things taken by themselves, don't differentiate, but when you

664
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 2: take them in an overview, such as this burning of

665
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 2: the buggy and Albert preventing people from doing things that

666
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 2: you know would help get rid of the fire or

667
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,280
Speaker 2: save his horse. I mean that again, that's just another

668
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 2: by itself. It's like, well, you can't necessarily draw a

669
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 2: conclusion one way or the other, but then you add

670
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: it into everything else. It's like, yeah, okay, she was

671
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: last seen getting into a buggy, and now that buggy

672
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 2: is burned. Yeah, you know, it's stacks, and that's you

673
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 2: can just keep stacking. The letters she wrote to the

674
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 2: father and him going in and buying a thirty two

675
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 2: per this feeler. It all just adds up that he

676
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 2: wanted to get out of that relationship and felt that

677
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 2: the only way to do it was to kill her.

678
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 1: Let me play defense attorney, which I'm awfully good at.

679
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 1: Sometimes the defense attorneys put witnesses on, and actually several

680
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:22,760
Speaker 1: state witnesses say the same thing, which is that Albert Frantz,

681
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: at the very beginning of this investigation had denied that

682
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 1: this happened, but then he was incredibly convincing and consistent

683
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: that the night she went missing, she took her own life.

684
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 1: He panicked and threw her body into the river. The

685
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: people who saw him right after this happened say he

686
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 1: didn't have any blood anywhere on his clothes or on

687
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: his body when they saw him. The police didn't find

688
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 1: any bloody clothing anywhere. Of course, we know that might

689
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 1: have burned up. There's no proof that this fire was

690
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: started on purpose, and he was acting a little oddly,

691
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: but maybe you would too if you saw your girlfriend

692
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: take her own life. And you know, he is denied

693
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 1: that he is courting another woman. Also, Franz's father, Albert's

694
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,919
Speaker 1: father testifies that there's a letter that Bessie sent him

695
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: that was threatening suicide, right if Albert did not marry her,

696
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 1: then the defense finds a witness who was an acquaintance

697
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: of Bessie's. There was a recent exchange where Bessie had

698
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: threatened to take her own life. If this woman Isabelle,

699
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: Fowler didn't take her in as a roommate. So they're

700
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 1: framing Bessie as a woman who was really fragile and

701
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: possibly had some mental health issues and was on edge

702
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: and had threatened suicide in many different instances. And one

703
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 1: more thing that occurs to me, Paul, the detail I

704
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: have about these supposed two shots, I'm a little unclear

705
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 1: about how we know it is definitely two bullets. So

706
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 1: doctor Weaver says that he felt like he found enough

707
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: led particles to indicate that these were two bullets. But

708
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like there are two really clear bullet

709
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: entry holes into her head. I know they pointed to them,

710
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: but the notes just indicate that he was piecing together

711
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: these bullets to figure out how many there were. Is

712
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: there a way he might not have put that together

713
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 1: correctly and it was only one bullet and she was

714
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 1: the one who did it well.

715
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 2: Usually it's very obvious that you have multiple shots. Now,

716
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 2: the skull could be you know, fractured extensively. That could

717
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 2: cause a disruption. But you know, if the pathologists had

718
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:36,280
Speaker 2: taken the time, and it sounds like possibly this police

719
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 2: surgeon was the one that concluded this two shots into

720
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 2: the body, I've never really seen it to where the

721
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 2: two consecutive bullets had entered the wound in such a

722
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: way that you couldn't tell that. Oh, hold on, we

723
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 2: got an unusual wounding pattern here, you know, because there's

724
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 2: just no way they perfectly aligned. The two bullets going

725
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 2: in will perfectly align into the same location. Okay, however,

726
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 2: let's just put that aside and talk about the collection

727
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 2: of all these fragments. We know, you know, you take

728
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 2: a look, you got a thirty two caliber round. You

729
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 2: know how much one bullet weighs. And now let's say

730
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 2: you have enough lead out of her head that is

731
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 2: almost twice the amount that the standard thirty two caliber round. Ways,

732
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 2: you go, yes, there's more than one bullet here. The

733
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 2: fact that they're drawing the conclusion that it's thirty two

734
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 2: caliber round tells me that they have a large mass

735
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 2: to be able to determine caliber. And then of course

736
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 2: you've got smaller pieces off of this large mass of

737
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 2: the bullet that have fragmented off. They probably have two

738
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 2: fairly large masses from the two separate bullets that have

739
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 2: deformed and then broken up. But you still have where

740
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 2: you go, oh, it's obvious that I've got two bases

741
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 2: of this bullet that's recovered. But even apps at that

742
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 2: firearms examiners do this all the time. You know, they're weighing,

743
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 2: you know, all the various fragments that are being collected

744
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 2: to determine Okay, well what am I working with here?

745
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 2: If everything is just completely smashed up and fractured.

746
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,760
Speaker 1: So it sounds like doctor Weaver, as a police surgeon,

747
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 1: he would have had enough knowledge to be able to

748
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 1: pieces together and say two bullets. I know that Albert

749
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: is acting weird and he's doing all sorts of things

750
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 1: that are unusual, but really it sounds like to you

751
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 1: this comes down to the two shots, and specifically where

752
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: the first shot or either shot hit would basically disable

753
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: her from being able to take off another shot.

754
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 2: At least in terms of the manner of death. Everything

755
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 2: about these two shots I heavily weigh towards this is

756
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 2: being homicide versus suicide. But when we start talking about

757
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 2: the case circumstances, and yes, there's alternate explanations that the

758
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 2: defense is putting out there that you've pointed out, but fundamentally,

759
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 2: you start adding everything up, start stacking things up, and

760
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 2: this is where I go, this is homicide. Now is

761
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 2: it provable in court? Well, that's that's on the prosecutor

762
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 2: to figure out. Yeah, I know, from my perspective, I'm

763
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,359
Speaker 2: in line with the chief. This was a homicide, and

764
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 2: I've compiled everything to show why I believe this is

765
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 2: a homicide. There's the alternate theory that the defense has

766
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 2: that she took her own life. Well, let's put this

767
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:21,879
Speaker 2: in front of a jury and see what they think.

768
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 2: And that's fundamentally what our system is about.

769
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 1: And the prosecutor, you know, the same prosecutors who put

770
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: Bessie's head on a table in front of the jury,

771
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: appeal to them and say, would any caring person be

772
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 1: willing to take someone's body who they loved, who just

773
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: took their own life and dump them off a bridge

774
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,320
Speaker 1: into a river. Nobody would do that. Only a monster

775
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: would do that. So we know, I know at least

776
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 1: to refrain from judging the way somebody behaves. But that

777
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 1: also I think the prosecutor has a point there. Is

778
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: it fair from your point of view, Paul, to judge

779
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 1: someone's immediate reac action after a death as part of

780
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,240
Speaker 1: a murder investigation? Don't we all react differently?

781
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 2: Yes? And that's something that is very well known, is

782
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 2: that people when they suffer trauma do act differently from

783
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 2: other people. So it's hard to draw a solid conclusion

784
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 2: based on that, but it's something that has to be acknowledged,

785
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 2: has to be observed. What does it mean within the

786
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 2: context of the case, And that's you know where I'm

787
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,839
Speaker 2: coming from on this case, and it sounds like you

788
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 2: are too, is that it's just one suspicious thing after another.

789
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 2: With Albert, Yeah, I strongly lean he killed Bessie and

790
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 2: was he convicted?

791
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: He was it convinced the jury, all of the police

792
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 1: chief's hard work paid off and they convict him and

793
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 1: he sentenced to death in November of eighteen ninety seven.

794
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 1: That's when he's supposed to be executed. There's a very

795
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: disturbing footnote to this. Boy have I written stories about

796
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 1: bad executions and this was a bad one. The electric

797
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 1: chair is only seven years old in the US, and

798
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: that is what Albert is facing. Once his appeals are exhausted,

799
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 1: he is placed in the electric chair. It takes five

800
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,439
Speaker 1: applications of electricity to finally kill him.

801
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:26,240
Speaker 2: I mean, an electric chair in eighteen ninety seven.

802
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this was supposed to be the humane alternative

803
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,479
Speaker 1: to a hanging. Yeah, I don't know, Yeah, boy, I mean,

804
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,280
Speaker 1: and I've heard of some bad hangings before, but five

805
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,359
Speaker 1: jolts of electricity must have really been terrible. He ends

806
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: up dying and of course never wavered as many of

807
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,359
Speaker 1: the guilty do. Never wavered in his innocence. He always said,

808
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 1: I didn't do it. She took her own life. But this,

809
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: to me is a story of a testament to good

810
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 1: police work. Boy, this guy in eighteen ninety six, Thomas

811
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 1: Ferrell covered all of his bases. Next time, I need

812
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: you to suggest to the police next time they're trying

813
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 1: to recover a weapon that you need a boat full

814
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,399
Speaker 1: of magnets, and they're sort of trolling trying to find

815
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 1: I mean, a fruitless effort trying to find this weapon.

816
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 1: But that's how convinced he was that Albert Frantz was

817
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: guilty of murder and a jury agreed.

818
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,919
Speaker 2: He's doing the legwork. As new information comes in, your

819
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 2: job as an investigator is to go out and corroborate

820
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 2: or refute to that information. And here he's got information

821
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 2: that this revolver has been thrown in the river, and

822
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,439
Speaker 2: he's doing everything he could at the time to try

823
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 2: to recover it. Now, the use of magnets, I thought

824
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 2: it was a genius this day and age. Our divers

825
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 2: have metal detectors.

826
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: Oh, that's cheating. I think that's cheating. He have sonar equipment.

827
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,280
Speaker 2: There's so much more side scanning sonar on the marine

828
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 2: boats for larger objects. But no, it does sound like

829
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 2: this chief. You know, he recognized how to investigate a crime,

830
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 2: even though he didn't have all the training and technologies

831
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 2: available to him that modern law enforcement has. He knew

832
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 2: how to build a case, and he put in the legwork.

833
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 2: You a gumshoe detective in him really paid off.

834
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:26,280
Speaker 1: It's amazing. It's an amazing case. We are off next

835
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 1: week because this has been such an endeavor for us

836
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 1: that we need a week off. So I think you

837
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: need to fit in an extra workout and be ready

838
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:36,280
Speaker 1: for next week.

839
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I'm a little bit exhausted after this one chat,

840
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 2: so I might just take it easy.

841
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaker 1: And you worked hard, You worked hard.

842
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:46,359
Speaker 2: Rest up, and then look forward to hearing the next case.

843
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:47,800
Speaker 1: Okay, see in a few weeks.

844
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 2: Sounds good.

845
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

846
00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to exactly right

847
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 2: now media dot com slash Buried Bones sources.

848
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

849
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

850
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Leona Scuilacci.

851
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

852
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

853
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,800
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

854
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

855
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 1: Baried Bones Pod.

856
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,720
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

857
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

858
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

859
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's Cold

860
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now