Speaker 1: Hey rain Drops. Yes, so I finally got merch. That's right.
Speaker 1: You can buy your allegedly and my Boys mugs, T shirts,
Speaker 1: rain Drops, hoodies and T shirts all on Carlos Kingshop
Speaker 1: dot com. That's right. Get your hoodies, your T shirts,
Speaker 1: and your mugs all on Carlos Kingshop dot com. Welcome
Speaker 1: to Reality with the King. It's me Carlos kings the
Speaker 1: King of Reality TV and one of the most sought
Speaker 1: after executive producers in reality television with over ten years
Speaker 1: a production experience. Twice a week on Reality with the King,
Speaker 1: we'll sit down with my friends across the entertainment industry,
Speaker 1: recap our favorite reality shows, and revisit unforgettable moments that
Speaker 1: we are still talking and tweeting about. Hey rain Drops.
Speaker 1: On today's episode Reality with the King. Oh honey, I'm
Speaker 1: here with a very special guest. I'm a fan of
Speaker 1: his work. He wrote the book that I love because
Speaker 1: you all know I'm a huge fan of the view.
Speaker 1: Megan McCain is one of my good friends, as you
Speaker 1: all know too, because she's always against this podcast. But
Speaker 1: this guy has another book out called A Prentice in Wonderland.
Speaker 1: How Donald Trump and Mark Burnett took America through the
Speaker 1: looking glass, so please give it up for a man Satuda.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me, Carlos, I'm so
Speaker 2: excited to be here with you today.
Speaker 1: No, thank you so much for taking time out of
Speaker 1: your very busy press week. The book is out now.
Speaker 1: I'm super stoked because listen, I'm such a fan of
Speaker 1: the Ladies Who Punch. It was such a great book,
Speaker 1: and anybody who's a fan of the view it was
Speaker 1: sort of like the National Choir meets Vanity Fair meets
Speaker 1: US Weekly. You know. It gave me everything I needed
Speaker 1: and wanted. So I'm looking for to your new book,
Speaker 1: which is out right now. But talk to me about
Speaker 1: this book because I'm hearing it is such a deep
Speaker 1: dive in how Donald Trump and Mark Burnett collectively sort
Speaker 1: of creative as character that we saw on The Apprentice
Speaker 1: that inevitably became the President of the United States of America.
Speaker 2: You described that perfectly. This is a book about how
Speaker 2: reality TV, which I know your listeners love and watch
Speaker 2: and talk about, change the world because it made millions
Speaker 2: of people believe that the Donald Trump that they saw
Speaker 2: on The Apprentice playing this boss of the boardroom could
Speaker 2: actually lead the country. And in the same way that
Speaker 2: my book about the View is juicy and dishy and
Speaker 2: has a lot of interviews and a lot of bombshells
Speaker 2: and revelations, Apprentice in Wonderland also takes you inside this
Speaker 2: reality TV show and talks about all the ups and
Speaker 2: downs and dysfunction and drama and craziness that was going
Speaker 2: on behind the scenes. But I also talked to Donald Trump.
Speaker 2: He and I sat down and I interviewed him four
Speaker 2: times since he left the White House. We talked two
Speaker 2: other times on the phone, so six interviews total, where
Speaker 2: I asked him about everything from am Rosa to why
Speaker 2: he ended up firing certain boardroom advisors or certain contestants,
Speaker 2: to his bringing his kids on the show, which is
Speaker 2: why Ivanka and Don Junior became famous to America. So
Speaker 2: this really goes through the entire evolution of reality TV.
Speaker 2: And it was the same thing he ended up using,
Speaker 2: the same template he ended up using when he ran
Speaker 2: for the White House. So this isn't really a political book,
Speaker 2: but it's about how Hollywood and politics converge and how
Speaker 2: now we're living in this alternate reality because the president
Speaker 2: of the United States could be a reality star.
Speaker 1: Again, talk to me about The Apprentice, because what I'm
Speaker 1: so fascinated that you're talking about in this book is
Speaker 1: the fact that he did The Apprentice to really sort
Speaker 1: of not only put his name out there, because we
Speaker 1: already see that with the Trump you know, in Blaze
Speaker 1: on every single building in New York City, you know,
Speaker 1: Florida and Las Vegas. But he really wanted to become
Speaker 1: somebody that the entire world knew. So when he first
Speaker 1: met with Mark Burnett, what was that first meeting, like, like,
Speaker 1: did he set out to become the biggest television star
Speaker 1: in the world.
Speaker 2: So Trump wanted to be famous his entire life. He
Speaker 2: thought he was going to be a film producer before
Speaker 2: he went into his family business because his father obviously
Speaker 2: was a very successful real estate owner and then Trump
Speaker 2: inherited the family business. But he always wanted to be
Speaker 2: part of Hollywood. That's why he was on He did
Speaker 2: cameos on everything from you know, The Nanny, just Sex
Speaker 2: and the City to Home Alone. He was always trying
Speaker 2: to get on camera. And so Mark Burnett and Donald
Speaker 2: Trump met in two thousand and three, that's when Survivor
Speaker 2: was shooting at the Ice skating rink in Central Park
Speaker 2: that Trump had renovated. It was woman rink, and believe
Speaker 2: it or not, Rosie O'Donnell was the host of that
Speaker 2: season of Survivor and Donald Trump was there with his
Speaker 2: girlfrien from Milania and they met and Mark Burnett had
Speaker 2: this idea to do another show that was basically like Survivor,
Speaker 2: but instead of having it be in the jungle or
Speaker 2: in an island, he wanted to be in the city
Speaker 2: of New York where contestants were competing to see who
Speaker 2: would win. And he needed a business mogul to play
Speaker 2: this boss of the boardroom, and so he approached Trump.
Speaker 2: He went to Trump's office. Trump said yes immediately, didn't
Speaker 2: even talk to his manager, agent, nothing. He was getting
Speaker 2: paid twenty five thousand dollars an episode for that first season,
Speaker 2: which I know, that's a lot of money, but for
Speaker 2: reality TV not really, that's not that much money for
Speaker 2: Donald Trump, who was allegedly a billionaire at the time.
Speaker 2: And so he ended up being on the show and
Speaker 2: using the show to promote all of his businesses, his family,
Speaker 2: his home, his life, and become this legendary figure of
Speaker 2: you know, he'd gone through you know, ups and downs
Speaker 2: in his own life, and he wasn't that famous. But
Speaker 2: because of The Apprentice, everyone in America that I knew
Speaker 2: Donald Trump and they liked him. They loved that he
Speaker 2: was a tough guy that said you're fired and could
Speaker 2: decide and choose and look and see who is the
Speaker 2: strongest contestant in the boardroom. And that was the persona
Speaker 2: that he cultivated and created. And that is the reason
Speaker 2: why he became President of the States.
Speaker 1: One of the other reasons why he became this reality
Speaker 1: star based on your book, is the fact that Mark
Speaker 1: Burnett allegedly taught Donald Trump how to perform for the camera.
Speaker 1: So talk to me about that, because as reality TV producer,
Speaker 1: one thing I always tell my reality stars is the
Speaker 1: fact that a producer's job is similar to a music
Speaker 1: producer's job when they have an artist that they're working
Speaker 1: with is vocal lessons. Is teaching you how to sing
Speaker 1: the right chords or rap or or whatever the case
Speaker 1: may be. You're teaching this artist how to become the
Speaker 1: greatest singer of all time. So, Mark Burnett, who is
Speaker 1: arguably a legend in the reality community, what did he
Speaker 1: teach Donald Trump in terms of how to perform for
Speaker 1: the cameras.
Speaker 2: So I think that he taught him on camera. Trump
Speaker 2: has very good instincts, so he can be funny, he
Speaker 2: can be off the cut. He says things that are
Speaker 2: like totally out of control. But that's really good for
Speaker 2: reality TV, as you know as a reality TV producer.
Speaker 2: So what Mark Burnett did was he took this caricature
Speaker 2: image that Trump has and does and is this character
Speaker 2: that he plays, and kind of found a way to
Speaker 2: fine tune it. And in the boardroom. One of their
Speaker 2: biggest fights, actually the two of them, was that Donald
Speaker 2: Trump wants the entire episode of The Apprentice to be
Speaker 2: the boardroom. He wasn't. He didn't care about the contestants,
Speaker 2: care about the tasks. He thought there wasn't enough boardroom.
Speaker 1: So over the years, they translation enough Donald Trump.
Speaker 2: Exactly, They kept fighting over Trump. The boardrooms would become longer.
Speaker 2: He would sometimes film for four hours doing these boardroom
Speaker 2: scenes that on TV would be like, you know, five minutes,
Speaker 2: ten minutes. But he wanted, he loved to be in
Speaker 2: the boardroom because it made him feel powerful. And the
Speaker 2: other thing that Mark Burnett really taught Trump was that
Speaker 2: what matters the most is your audience size. And Trump's
Speaker 2: fixation on ratings and his obsession on ratings, that's why
Speaker 2: he was always making up the numbers and saying they
Speaker 2: had more people had his inauguration than Obama did. Was
Speaker 2: because of the show. Because he would wake up every
Speaker 2: day after the Apprentice aired and go and try to
Speaker 2: find the ratings. He would facc the ratings to people
Speaker 2: and he was so excited, and he'd sometimes even make
Speaker 2: up the numbers when they weren't very good. He was
Speaker 2: excited to own the ratings because he learned that the
Speaker 2: only way to get renewed is as you know as
Speaker 2: a producer, is through good ratings. So he was very
Speaker 2: obsessed with the crowd size. He wanted the biggest number possible,
Speaker 2: and we saw that when he became president.
Speaker 1: So you said with him, you said a total four times.
Speaker 1: And obviously he loves talking about himself, right, So when
Speaker 1: it comes to reality television, did he talk to you
Speaker 1: about his feelings towards that genre? Television was a love
Speaker 1: hate relationship? Was it all love relationship that he had
Speaker 1: with his genre? Like did he want to be as
Speaker 1: big as Chris Jenner? When it came to like figuring
Speaker 1: out how reality television can work for his business.
Speaker 2: That's a great question. So Donald Trump and I actually
Speaker 2: sat in a wardroom in Trump Tower and we watched
Speaker 2: clips of the show together. And when he saw the
Speaker 2: theme song, he said he hadn't heard it for years.
Speaker 2: It made him so that was probably the happiest I
Speaker 2: ever saw him. He really lit up. Remember that money, Money,
Speaker 2: Money theme song that's at the beginning of the show.
Speaker 2: Then he goes, this is a really good show, like
Speaker 2: he was like he was doing himself and then complimenting himself.
Speaker 2: It was a really interesting dynamic, but not surprising. But
Speaker 2: for in terms of the genre Donald Trump is, this
Speaker 2: might also not be that surprising. But he's most interested
Speaker 2: in himself. So I asked him about Kim Kardashian had
Speaker 2: been on the show in one of the seasons to
Speaker 2: promote one of her fragrance lines. Obviously, Chloe Kardashian was
Speaker 2: a contestant on The Apprentice. Didn't end well for her,
Speaker 2: and so and Kaylen Jenner is now helping Trump and
Speaker 2: campaigning for Trump. So he does have ties to the Kardashians,
Speaker 2: but he's claimed that he'd never seen keeping up with
Speaker 2: the Kardashians, but that they had something going on, and
Speaker 2: he understood that that they were using their face somehow
Speaker 2: to get people to watch them. And he had actually
Speaker 2: been offered a show before The Apprentice. It was like
Speaker 2: the Osbornes, where they were going to watch him be
Speaker 2: a dad to his family and his kids, and he
Speaker 2: had turned that down because he wasn't interested in playing
Speaker 2: a father figure and he wasn't interested in sort of
Speaker 2: being on camera, even though he loved be on camera
Speaker 2: in that way. He was more interested in doing this
Speaker 2: show because it was a business show and he could
Speaker 2: use the money because he made two hundred and thirteen
Speaker 2: million dollars hosting The Apprentice for fourteen seasons.
Speaker 1: Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait waited
Speaker 1: the money in other ways? Wait a second, hold on,
Speaker 1: are you telling me Donald J. Trump made two hundred
Speaker 1: and thirteen million the entire time he was doing all
Speaker 1: his seasons of The Apprentice?
Speaker 2: Yes? And you know why?
Speaker 1: Why?
Speaker 2: So back then reality TV was in its early stages, right,
Speaker 2: so people didn't know really it was. Survivor was on,
Speaker 2: Big Brother was on, the Real World. It was on,
Speaker 2: but they weren't not. Survivor was a huge money making machine,
Speaker 2: but they didn't know the extent to which how reality
Speaker 2: TV would be or how big it would be, and
Speaker 2: so when Mark Burnett sold The Apprentice to Jeff Zucker
Speaker 2: at NBC, he said, I will give you the show.
Speaker 2: Donald Trump. Will do this for a very small salary,
Speaker 2: but what I want in return is all the money
Speaker 2: from any product placement that could be on the show.
Speaker 2: And Jeff Zucker at the time didn't know how much
Speaker 2: revenue they would generate from that, and so Mark Burnett
Speaker 2: made this deal with Trump saying, you would get twenty
Speaker 2: five thousand dollars an episode, but we're gonna split whatever
Speaker 2: product placement we make, so big car company would come.
Speaker 2: That's why every episode is like an ad. A big
Speaker 2: car company would come. They'd say, we're going to do
Speaker 2: this big car commercial. The contestants are going to work
Speaker 2: on this car, and then Donald Trump and Mark Burnett
Speaker 2: would split that fifty to fifty. They get five million
Speaker 2: dollars just from the car commercial of our Car Challenge,
Speaker 2: and they'd split that fifty to fifty. And I think
Speaker 2: a lot of people don't know that's how Donald Trump
Speaker 2: became rich doing The Apprentice. It was through this deal
Speaker 2: that Mark Burnett engineered early on where they split all
Speaker 2: the advertising. So anything that's in the show, mattel Levi's jeans,
Speaker 2: the cereal companies that came on, the food companies that
Speaker 2: came on, all that money went directly in Donald Trump's pocket,
Speaker 2: which is why he was always promoting them and seeming
Speaker 2: interested when he would meet these executives and talking about
Speaker 2: how great Donny Deutsche was or how great whoever was,
Speaker 2: because this was leading to him pocketing millions of dollars.
Speaker 1: My mouth is still on the floor, and I know
Speaker 1: I have to talk, so excuse my pregnant pause. Two
Speaker 1: hundred over two hundred million dollars. That's insane. And for
Speaker 1: my listeners, no housewife is making that much money. Ladies, gentlemen,
Speaker 1: and they just so you know, that's a shitload of money.
Speaker 1: But it goes to show you how you really have
Speaker 1: to be a maverick when it comes to sort of
Speaker 1: figuring out how to make reality television work for you.
Speaker 1: Donald Trump is somebody who did it. Chris Jenner is
Speaker 1: somebody who did it with her entire family. Bethany Franco
Speaker 1: did it and was one of the first reality stars
Speaker 1: to really use the platform to promote their businesses, because
Speaker 1: you make money with the business. Now, did he ever
Speaker 1: want to Kardashian his family, because we did see Evanka
Speaker 1: become pretty much a co star in the latter seasons,
Speaker 1: and we saw the other brothers make appearances. But listen,
Speaker 1: it's no secret or it doesn't take a rocket scientist
Speaker 1: to know that Evanka is his favorite child. So did
Speaker 1: he ever see this world where he wanted to use
Speaker 1: the genre to really make Trump a synonymous name in
Speaker 1: reality television like the Kardashians for example.
Speaker 2: You know it's funny, I'll answer that question. But Bethany Frinkle,
Speaker 2: remember she started out on The Apprentice. She was on
Speaker 2: the Martha start. There was a Martha Stuart version. We
Speaker 2: get into all the drama of that in the book
Speaker 2: how Martha Stuart tried to come in and take over
Speaker 2: The Apprentice and Donald Trump was so upset and angry.
Speaker 2: But what he learned from Martha was that Martha brought
Speaker 2: her daughter Alexis on to be one of the judges
Speaker 2: on the show. And so then when Donald saw that,
Speaker 2: even though he was very resentful of the Martha version,
Speaker 2: the next season, that's when he really started to push
Speaker 2: to make sure that Avanka would be on as one
Speaker 2: of the judges in the boardroom, and I would argue
Speaker 2: that he actually did try to Kardashi in his family.
Speaker 2: Because Avanka started to appear on the show, she was
Speaker 2: wearing high end designer clothes. From there, she started judging
Speaker 2: Project Runway, and then short time after that, we started
Speaker 2: to see Evanka lines of clothing and stores, which you
Speaker 2: know were then taken off the shelves after Trump became
Speaker 2: president because of the backlash. But she started a jewelry line,
Speaker 2: she started her shoes line. I remember my mom would
Speaker 2: always see the Avanca line and Tjmax when she goes shopping.
Speaker 2: So Avanka really became a mogul on her own, and
Speaker 2: I would say that it was the Kardashian effect for
Speaker 2: her because she then became a tastemaker at influence. So
Speaker 2: she had her own clothing line. People knew who she
Speaker 2: No one knew who she was. She was someone who
Speaker 2: had grown up as an EPO baby and was very
Speaker 2: very had a very famous father. But Avanka became famous
Speaker 2: because of The Apprentice because she sat next to her
Speaker 2: father in the boardroom and she would conduct the firings
Speaker 2: and he trusted her and he liked her, and she
Speaker 2: was also great on camera.
Speaker 1: They ever talked to you about what was going on
Speaker 1: in terms of his relationships with some of the housewives
Speaker 1: that he had on the show. I mean, Niani Leaks
Speaker 1: appeared on the show, Teresa Judies appeared on the show.
Speaker 1: Did he ever like go into detail them or did
Speaker 1: anybody the producer you speak to talk about the reason
Speaker 1: why they wanted housewives, and particularly to be a part
Speaker 1: of Celebrity Apprentice.
Speaker 2: So the reason they ended up with the Housewives was
Speaker 2: that NBC had The Apprentice, and so seven seasons in
Speaker 2: they realized that they couldn't. The ratings were bad, and
Speaker 2: so they started adding celebrities. So Donald Trump was then
Speaker 2: judging the celebrities, and then the ratings went back up
Speaker 2: and NBC had the Housewives. So it was really good
Speaker 2: corporate synergy for them to then have the Housewives come on.
Speaker 2: So there's information about Ninnie Leaks in this book. She
Speaker 2: was There was one day that she swarmed off and
Speaker 2: Donald Trump had to go into the sidewalk and convince
Speaker 2: her to come back into the boardroom. We also talked
Speaker 2: about a very famous boardroom in season fourteen UH where
Speaker 2: Kenya Moore and vivid a Fox. Do you remember this?
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course is injected in my vein is my
Speaker 1: blood type?
Speaker 2: Yes, we're fighting, and Heroldo was sitting in between them,
Speaker 2: and Donald Trump was so excited when I brought up
Speaker 2: that boardroom. He talked about how people still talk about
Speaker 2: it to him and bring it up to him, and
Speaker 2: Eric said, it was very dark when they went through
Speaker 2: Kenya's phone and realized that she was tweeting from vivid
Speaker 2: a Fox's phone. It was just a very dark moment.
Speaker 2: But what was so interesting was that when he told
Speaker 2: that story, he was watching the clip and he saw
Speaker 2: that Heraldo was very quiet because he was between the
Speaker 2: two women and they were fighting, and Roaldo kind of
Speaker 2: slid by. Donald Trump then tells me a story about
Speaker 2: why he and Miroaldo had a falling out, and while
Speaker 2: he was telling that story, he accidentally admitted Donald Trump
Speaker 2: for the first time to journalists that he lost selection
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: So wait, wait, wait, that's breaking news.
Speaker 2: It is breaking news. You have to read the book
Speaker 2: to get the full story. But I'm giving you the
Speaker 2: I'm giving you some here, the cliff notes version. He said,
Speaker 2: when I lost selection, Heralda called me and then catches
Speaker 2: himself and realizes what he said. So I actually think
Speaker 2: that Donald Trump knows that he lost election, but he's
Speaker 2: playing a reality character and he knows how much attention
Speaker 2: he gets for denying that he lost selection. So this
Speaker 2: is like really really high level performance art that we're
Speaker 2: dealing with. Because Donald Trump is a reality star, and
Speaker 2: I think that's really important for people to remember when
Speaker 2: you look at politics and what he's doing. He's a
Speaker 2: reality star. He's a very good reality star, and we're
Speaker 2: now all living in his reality.
Speaker 1: I am so fascinated by this because the thing I
Speaker 1: always to try to tell my audience about reality stars
Speaker 1: is the fact that they're not normal, and that's not
Speaker 1: a dig there's nothing negative about that. They're not normal
Speaker 1: in the sense of how they operate. They have a
Speaker 1: high self esteem, of confidence. Some have this delusion of grander.
Speaker 1: It's if you want to be the biggest reality star
Speaker 1: in the world, you have to have bigahnahs, you have
Speaker 1: to have to have grit, and you have to have
Speaker 1: this sense of high self esteem and not really understand
Speaker 1: the real world. Because when I deal with some reality stars,
Speaker 1: the stuff that they talk about, I'm like, that's not
Speaker 1: happening at all, Like you made this up in your mind.
Speaker 3: You convinced yourself that we are against you, or that
Speaker 3: somebody's against you, and that's not the quote unquote reality
Speaker 3: of this situation, as you were fortunate enough to have
Speaker 3: these many sit downs with him.
Speaker 1: Is it a character trait that he just has to
Speaker 1: where like most reality stars, he truly does believe his
Speaker 1: own hype or does he know like I'm playing a character,
Speaker 1: which we call the real life special is when the
Speaker 1: real light comes on the camera and you just all
Speaker 1: of a sudden become like this person, and then when
Speaker 1: the camera's off, you're back to normal. Which one would
Speaker 1: you say he is? Or is he a little bit
Speaker 1: of both?
Speaker 2: I think what happened was the red light turned on
Speaker 2: and the Red Light Special never went away. So I
Speaker 2: think the character he played on TV then started to
Speaker 2: become his own personality. And that was actually an analogy.
Speaker 2: One of the contestants from season one, his name was Sam,
Speaker 2: told me it's kind of like when he thought he
Speaker 2: was playing a character and then he became that character.
Speaker 2: Another executive NBC also compared it to Austin Butler when
Speaker 2: he was Elvis. You know how he was like mumbling
Speaker 2: on his press tour and we couldn't tell what was
Speaker 2: going on because he was like talking like Elvis even
Speaker 2: though he was a real person and he was trying
Speaker 2: to be Austin Butler. That's what Donald Trump I think
Speaker 2: is like he played this character on The Apprentice for
Speaker 2: fourteen seasons. He got so much positive affirmation, so much money,
Speaker 2: so much encouragement, so much love from the American public,
Speaker 2: that that then became part of his personality. Because when
Speaker 2: I sat down with him, it's not like he was
Speaker 2: different than he is on TV. He's actually very similar
Speaker 2: than he is on TV. He's funny, he says things
Speaker 2: that sometimes don't make sense that you know, tangents. But
Speaker 2: he is a reality star, and he does drink his
Speaker 2: own kool aid, and he does believe he's the very best,
Speaker 2: and he does believe he deserves anything. And he does
Speaker 2: I believe he should run again. He believes in himself.
Speaker 2: He has that confidence that a reality star has. And
Speaker 2: we're all along again. We're all along for this ride.
Speaker 2: And one of the reasons why I call this book
Speaker 2: Apprentice in Wonderland. It's like Alice in Wonderland, Right, we
Speaker 2: all went down the rabbit hole with him. But we
Speaker 2: can't wake up, we can't go back to regular life
Speaker 2: because reality TV is now taken over the White House.
Speaker 1: Fascinating. I'm beyond fascinated by this. Speaking of fascination, I'm
Speaker 1: a Rosa Manigault, Okay, I mean when The Apprentice first debut,
Speaker 1: I was maybe a sophomore in college, I believe, and
Speaker 1: in my journalism class, we were all just given like
Speaker 1: topics right about and I'm like, I'm going to talk
Speaker 1: about like I'm a Rosa Madigal at the Apprentice. So
Speaker 1: my headline was, you know, the angry Black Woman.
Speaker 2: And at the time, yes.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no, please please feel free. No, it
Speaker 1: was this. It was the first time we kind of
Speaker 1: heard this sort of acron was called ABW is still
Speaker 1: for angry Black Women, and Amorrosa was like the face
Speaker 1: of it. And it was when television, whether it was
Speaker 1: scripted or unscripted, was kind of going down this path
Speaker 1: of showing black women, you know, being very assertive and
Speaker 1: you know, you know, talking loud or whatever the journalists
Speaker 1: and the media we're saying out the time. So long
Speaker 1: story short, I've always been fascinated by her she then
Speaker 1: became an employee at the White House. So when it
Speaker 1: came from when it came to Amrosa, what was the
Speaker 1: decision making not only casting her and keeping her on
Speaker 1: the Apprentice to make appearances that ultimately led to her
Speaker 1: having a position in the White House.
Speaker 2: I think that's the perfect example of the thesis of
Speaker 2: this book, which is that reality TV came crashing into
Speaker 2: the real world, and we can't now take that back,
Speaker 2: because you're right, Amrosa was a character and she was
Speaker 2: the villain. And it was also very controversial because she
Speaker 2: was the only black woman on the first season and
Speaker 2: she was being portrayed as a villain, and it was
Speaker 2: a stereotype and a lot of people at the time,
Speaker 2: I remember this was before social media, but found it
Speaker 2: very offensive that Amrosa was saying one thing to her
Speaker 2: contestant and then trying to undermine them. She wasn't a
Speaker 2: team player, she was creating drama for the sake of drama.
Speaker 2: She wasn't being honest. And remember when she was in
Speaker 2: that construction site and a piece of construction, Eric Trump
Speaker 2: talked to me about this actually Donald Trump's, so it
Speaker 2: fell on her shoulder, and then she claimed that she
Speaker 2: had a concussion and she couldn't work, and she sat
Speaker 2: down and she couldn't. So the book goes through the
Speaker 2: evolution of Amrosa, and I talked to Donald Trump about
Speaker 2: arm Morosa, and so in season one, the first time
Speaker 2: she was on the show, what happened was that she
Speaker 2: was that character. She was who she was undermining people
Speaker 2: and kind of backstabbing people. And because she became so popular,
Speaker 2: they brought her back with two seasons of Celebrity Apprentice,
Speaker 2: even though she wasn't really celebrity, but maybe she was
Speaker 2: because she's Amors and everyone knows who she is. And
Speaker 2: Donald Trump really loved her, loved the ratings, loved the drama,
Speaker 2: loved that there was no way that her spotlight would
Speaker 2: be bigger than his because he was more famous than
Speaker 2: she was, and that she relied on him for her fame.
Speaker 2: And then he brings her into the White House, and
Speaker 2: he tells me in the book that a lot of
Speaker 2: people warned him against it and he didn't think it
Speaker 2: would end well, but he still brought her in because
Speaker 2: he's conditioned to think about ratings, right, and Amrosa always
Speaker 2: brings ratings, and by bringing in he throws people. He
Speaker 2: gets a lot of press. People are confused, they're interested,
Speaker 2: like that's the way Donald Trump operates. And then when
Speaker 2: it goes badly and she secretly tapes records him and
Speaker 2: writes her tell all book, he feels he genuinely feels
Speaker 2: very betrayed by her. He claimed to me that he
Speaker 2: didn't see her much in the White House, although we
Speaker 2: know from her book that they did see each other
Speaker 2: quite a bit and that she couldn't cut the mustard
Speaker 2: in the White House. And if you read the book
Speaker 2: in full, you'll see his descriptions of her and their feud.
Speaker 2: But Donald Trump really thrives on feuds. He loves feuds,
Speaker 2: and am Rossa was a phenomenon in his life and
Speaker 2: a huge star as a results of The Apprentice.
Speaker 1: Okay, so one of his decision making calls, you're you're.
Speaker 2: At You're at a loss for words.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, no, this is this is I mean, listen,
Speaker 1: me and my listeners are like gagging at the same time.
Speaker 1: But that's how we are. No, I'm shocked, although I
Speaker 1: shouldn't be, but whatever, I am.
Speaker 2: But it's shock. It's shocking. It's shocking that the reality
Speaker 2: TV that we All Love and Watch has now infiltrated
Speaker 2: the White House and there's no way to pull it back.
Speaker 2: And a lot of journalists and people that interact with Trump,
Speaker 2: probably unlike your listeners, aren't so well versed in reality TV,
Speaker 2: so they're not looking at Donald Trump like a reality star.
Speaker 2: That's one of the arguments of this book, and it
Speaker 2: is a page turner. It is really juicy. But when
Speaker 2: you get to the end, there's a huge scene at
Speaker 2: the end where I go to mar A Lago and
Speaker 2: I really we really realize and see how the reality
Speaker 2: star of Donald Trump is lined up with who he's
Speaker 2: trying to be as a politician and this illusion that
Speaker 2: we have and this mirage that he's created, and really
Speaker 2: the repercussions of reality TV in our culture.
Speaker 1: One thing I know, being a reality producer, that I
Speaker 1: get flag for is like, is it real? Is it scripted?
Speaker 1: Did you guys like make the sub Are they fighting
Speaker 1: for no reason? All those things? And when you look
Speaker 1: at the political climate right now, right it's like nothing
Speaker 1: I've ever seen before in my lifetime. And my jaw
Speaker 1: is constantly dropping when it comes to just how listen,
Speaker 1: A lot of people, whether they're senators whatever role they play,
Speaker 1: you know, in the White House or even in DC.
Speaker 1: A lot of people are becoming famous based on the
Speaker 1: arguments that are happening in Congress, you know, based on
Speaker 1: us giving you know, getting access to kind of seeing
Speaker 1: how some of these situations are current, whether it's trying
Speaker 1: to pass the bill or whatever discussions that are happening,
Speaker 1: you know, in DC, and we're seeing like people cuss
Speaker 1: each other out. We're seeing people damn there coming to blows,
Speaker 1: you know, fighting. We saw obviously what happened on January sixth,
Speaker 1: you know that the insurrectionists. You make a really good point,
Speaker 1: and I wonder if Donald Trump realizes that he and
Speaker 1: I'll say this, Donald Trump to me single handedly turned Washington,
Speaker 1: d C. On its head and the White House and
Speaker 1: everything we were taught growing up studying a government or
Speaker 1: you know, judge things about the United States of America
Speaker 1: that he single handily flipped it and turned this into
Speaker 1: things that we will watch or reality TV, Like, does
Speaker 1: you take any ownership in what DC and the White
Speaker 1: House has become.
Speaker 2: The only ownership he takes is pride that he was
Speaker 2: able to come in as an outsider and shake things up.
Speaker 2: But you also know, for every reality TV star, especially
Speaker 2: the ones that behave badly, they're not going to ever say, oh, well,
Speaker 2: I admit I shouldn't have done that. They don't apologize,
Speaker 2: they don't admit defeat, they don't admit fault. And these
Speaker 2: are all qualities in Donald Trump. But he again has
Speaker 2: always been rewarded for being a great reality star, so
Speaker 2: he has no incentive to say, you know what, I
Speaker 2: take ownership for the fact that I've done this or
Speaker 2: this or now GC's a mess. He's claiming he quote
Speaker 2: drains the swamp. He's claiming he's an outsider that's going
Speaker 2: to fix things and build a wall. He's claiming all
Speaker 2: these certain things. But again, it's the training in reality
Speaker 2: TV that has led him this way. And the only
Speaker 2: way in which I think we can really understand what
Speaker 2: happened is by going back and studying the Apprentice and
Speaker 2: unpacking what we as an American country and as a
Speaker 2: society have contributed to this and understanding what's happening. Because
Speaker 2: the media right now, the way they're covering him, they're
Speaker 2: acting again like he's a traditional candidate, and he's not.
Speaker 2: He's our first reality TV president, and we have to
Speaker 2: educate ourselves on what exactly is happening here.
Speaker 1: Do you think he'll win again and this later this year?
Speaker 2: I think that based on all the time I spent
Speaker 2: with him, and based on understanding the way he uses
Speaker 2: the cameras and the media and attention and the spotlight.
Speaker 2: Although there are a lot of people that don't like
Speaker 2: him and are mad at him, and he's now a fellon,
Speaker 2: I do think he has a very good chance of winning, guess.
Speaker 1: And a lot of it has to do with the
Speaker 1: fact that he knows how to use the power of
Speaker 1: the media for his benefit.
Speaker 2: He understands the value of cameras following him everywhere, and
Speaker 2: by following him more than anyone else, he ends up
Speaker 2: being the winner by default. Right, So we're only talking
Speaker 2: about him. So when November comes around, although there's so
Speaker 2: much baggage and problems and legal issues, if you've only
Speaker 2: paid attention to Donald Trump, he's making the calculation that
Speaker 2: people are gonna en up voting for him. He's turned
Speaker 2: the presidency into a sense a popularity contest, and he's
Speaker 2: just trying to get the most amount of attention.
Speaker 1: Interesting, Okay, I want to move into his uncensort thoughts
Speaker 1: about the celebrities he's been in contact with, whether it's
Speaker 1: been on The Apprentice or justin life. Can you give
Speaker 1: us some tea? And yes, guys, please buy. The book
Speaker 1: is out in stores now. Apprentice in Wonderland. Okay, So
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you some names I want you
Speaker 1: doesn't give it a little tidbit about his fossil them,
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift.
Speaker 2: Taylor Swift was interesting because this was in mar A
Speaker 2: Lago and I asked him this Taylor was on her
Speaker 2: Aeros tours. She's still on her Aras tour. What he
Speaker 2: thinks of Taylor and Taylor had come out in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty and actually says she was a Democrat because in
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen we didn't know. And it was very interesting
Speaker 2: because Donald Trump loves picking fights with celebrities. He loves
Speaker 2: going ahead to head with celebrities. But even he knows
Speaker 2: that the Swifties are very loyal and Taylor Swift is very,
Speaker 2: very famous. So he describes her to me in very
Speaker 2: hedged language. He holds back and rather than talk anything
Speaker 2: about her, say anything negative, he calls her beautiful, very beautiful,
Speaker 2: unconventionally beautiful, and used the word beautiful five times in
Speaker 2: describing Taylor Swift. Then he asked He said he knew
Speaker 2: that she probably doesn't like Trump and then asked me
Speaker 2: how as a country star that was possible. And I
Speaker 2: had to then explain to the former president. I states
Speaker 2: that Taylor Swift is no longer a country star. She
Speaker 2: makes pop music. And he was, you know, kind of
Speaker 2: a little confused about that, claimed that he didn't listen
Speaker 2: to her music, and then asked me how Garth Brooks
Speaker 2: doesn't support him, because Garth Brooks is a country star,
Speaker 2: so obviously Hollywood is very important to him and famous
Speaker 2: people are very important to him. But he held back
Speaker 2: on Taylor and just commented on her beauty. And as
Speaker 2: a result of that, the Swifties have now come out
Speaker 2: in full force and they do not like this at all. Wait.
Speaker 1: Wait, the Swifties don't like any of this.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: They trended on Twitter when this part came out. They said,
Speaker 2: stay away from her. Ah, Donald Trump commenting on Taylor
Speaker 2: Swift's beauty. They do not like that. Even the nice
Speaker 2: thing he said about her did not sit well with them.
Speaker 1: No, I'm laughing because I'm like he tried his best
Speaker 1: not to have the swifties attack him, and they're doing
Speaker 1: it anyway because you're calling her beautiful, So that to
Speaker 1: me is super funny. He's afraid of the swift day.
Speaker 2: You're gonna have to read the way and describe it.
Speaker 2: He does it in a weird way because he keeps
Speaker 2: repeating it over and over again. So I think to
Speaker 2: him as a compliment, but I think to other people
Speaker 2: that read it, it did read a little creepy.
Speaker 1: Chloe Kardashian.
Speaker 2: So, Chloe Kardashian was on The Celebrity Apprentice. This was
Speaker 2: in the early seasons of the Kardashians and she hadn't
Speaker 2: blown up, and at the time, Donald Trump was very
Speaker 2: upset that Kim wasn't the contestant, that they only got Chloe,
Speaker 2: and Kim was on Dancing with the Stars. So there
Speaker 2: was a Huffington Post article about Chloe being fired from
Speaker 2: the show because Donald Trump thought quote that she was
Speaker 2: overweight at the time. And so when I mentioned Chloe
Speaker 2: and we watched a clip of Chloe, he told me
Speaker 2: that he had seen her recently and she looked quote
Speaker 2: so much better, and that she couldn't cut it on
Speaker 2: The Apprentice because she wasn't tough enough. But there are
Speaker 2: producers who talked about the Hoppington post and me and
Speaker 2: said that she was He was very misogynistic toward her
Speaker 2: and made comments about her weight behind her back. So
Speaker 2: it was a very ugly chapter in her life. And
Speaker 2: Chloe has come out and said how she really didn't
Speaker 2: enjoy being on the show.
Speaker 1: Yikes, yikes, yikes. Okay, I got two more for you.
Speaker 1: Dennis Rodman.
Speaker 2: Donald Trump loves Dennis Rodman. He was on The Celebrity
Speaker 2: Apprentice twice. He said that Dennis Rodman was cool. He
Speaker 2: dated Madonna back in the day, which Sean Trump really liked. Again,
Speaker 2: it's connection to celebrity, and he actually said, believe it
Speaker 2: or not that when he was thinking about talking to
Speaker 2: Kim Jong un of North Korea, the dictator of North Korea,
Speaker 2: he thought about calling Dennis Rodman and asking him for
Speaker 2: advice because he felt like Dennis Rodman knew more than
Speaker 2: the White House advisors who were there to help him
Speaker 2: about international relations. And when Donald Trump sat down with
Speaker 2: Kim Jong Un, he brought up Dennis Rodman and their
Speaker 2: association and mutual friendship with Dennis Rodman. So he talked
Speaker 2: to the North Korean dictator about Dennis Rodman being on
Speaker 2: Celebrity Apprentice, but he is a huge fan of Dennis
Speaker 2: Rodman's and he said he got Donald Trump got black
Speaker 2: because Dennis Rodman was drunk in the first time around,
Speaker 2: and Donald Trump just wouldn't fire him because he was
Speaker 2: so good for the cameras. And he finally got fired.
Speaker 2: Do you remember why he got fired? Because there was
Speaker 2: a project where they had to do something for Malania's
Speaker 2: beauty line and they sell Milania's name wrong and Dennis
Speaker 2: Rodman didn't catch statt and so Milania was very offended.
Speaker 2: And Donald Trump and I watched that clip and he
Speaker 2: really lit up that Milania was because there's so much
Speaker 2: speculation about what's going on Donald and Malania, but he
Speaker 2: lit up that Malania was funny on the show, and
Speaker 2: he really liked that his wife had a chance to
Speaker 2: be funny on the show.
Speaker 1: Oh jees, this is so juicy. Okay, one more Debra
Speaker 1: met saying, which we all love, will and Grace. What
Speaker 1: did he say about my grace?
Speaker 2: Okay, So this is going to be a huge surprise
Speaker 2: to your listeners. But Donald Trump and Debra Messing have
Speaker 2: been fighting and feuding for years because she's obviously very
Speaker 2: liberal and was very very she went after him on
Speaker 2: social media when he became president, understandably so for his policies.
Speaker 2: So back in the day, the Apprentice of Will and
Speaker 2: Grace were on the same night, and Donald Trump told
Speaker 2: me that they were at an NBC event and Deborah
Speaker 2: Messing came up to him and was very complimentary and
Speaker 2: very flattering, very thankful that the Apprentice was helping the network,
Speaker 2: and he admitted to me that he found her to
Speaker 2: be very, very attractive and beautiful, and he almost seemed
Speaker 2: hurt that Deborah Messing, who he seemed to have a
Speaker 2: crush on and talking about her and language that sort
Speaker 2: of suggested that he had a crush on her, no
Speaker 2: longer liked him. And it almost was like again a
Speaker 2: scene out of a reality TV show where Donald Trump
Speaker 2: liked Deborah Messing, Deva Messing stopped liking Donald Trump, so
Speaker 2: and now Donald Trump doesn't like Debora Messing and they
Speaker 2: had in this messy, messy feud. But there's an entire
Speaker 2: section of this book about Will and Grace because Donald
Speaker 2: Trump also saying at the Emmys with Megan Malally and
Speaker 2: he talks about why he's sang Green Acres at the
Speaker 2: Emmys with Megan Malually and what prompted him to do
Speaker 2: that live on television.
Speaker 1: Every story just gets better and better and better. And
Speaker 1: one thing you talked about earlier was policy, and I
Speaker 1: do hear some of his policies as president he got
Speaker 1: from doing celebrity princes or just the princess in general.
Speaker 2: In terms of well, you know, inviting the kash Kim
Speaker 2: Kardashian into the White House. That's a total reality star move.
Speaker 2: Going to Dennis Rodman when talking about, you know, North Korea,
Speaker 2: when he signed a Farmersville and he couldn't really remember
Speaker 2: what the farmer's bill was, but he posted at the
Speaker 2: time a clip of himself singing at the Emmys. Everything
Speaker 2: he does always traces back to show business. So he
Speaker 2: governs the country as a reality star, and I think
Speaker 2: that's really important for people to understand. He makes his
Speaker 2: decisions based on what was successful when he was on
Speaker 2: the Apprentice, and that's what he knows, and that's the
Speaker 2: world he knows. So if you go back and you
Speaker 2: look at what he's effective at, or what he tried
Speaker 2: to do, or why he was able to not really
Speaker 2: do anything during COVID. It's because there are limits to
Speaker 2: start them right, There's only so much to do as
Speaker 2: an influencer, as a reality star, and when it actually
Speaker 2: you have to actually move the needle and make tough decisions.
Speaker 2: It's a little harder in the real world than it
Speaker 2: is on TV.
Speaker 1: Did you get a sense from him that he loves
Speaker 1: politics or he just sees this as like a gig.
Speaker 2: He seemed so much happier when talking about The Apprentice
Speaker 2: than when talking about Washington, DC. Because when he was
Speaker 2: on The Apprentice, he was a character that people liked,
Speaker 2: and as president, he's not a character that people like.
Speaker 1: So that's the thing. And again to bring it back
Speaker 1: to reality stars. So I always tell people reality stars
Speaker 1: are the most sensitive group of people in the world
Speaker 1: because they're being judged for, you know, oftentimes being their
Speaker 1: authentic selves. And all reality stars, at least in the beginning,
Speaker 1: they're obsessed with the comments on social media. They have
Speaker 1: this need to be liked by everybody. I always got
Speaker 1: this sense that when he became president. Yes, he has
Speaker 1: his base, you know, he has his fans, and he
Speaker 1: has people who clearly are obsessed with him. But I
Speaker 1: always felt that he did not enjoy Hollywood, the one
Speaker 1: industry to me that he seemed to be happy to
Speaker 1: thrive in that they shun him, and to me, I
Speaker 1: feel like he still is upset about that.
Speaker 2: He's very upset about that. You'll see that in the book.
Speaker 2: He's obsessed with Hollywood. He told me he spent a
Speaker 2: lot of time talking about Hollywood, the people that betrayed him,
Speaker 2: the people that he used to invite over his house
Speaker 2: that no longer want to talk to him. He claimed
Speaker 2: that he's winning the vote secretly. Guess where. Not in
Speaker 2: Ohio and Florida, not in any of the swing states.
Speaker 2: He told me he's secretly winning the vote in Beverly Hills.
Speaker 2: Why Beverly Hills. Not just the housewives, but a lot
Speaker 2: of celebrities live there, And so he wanted me to
Speaker 2: know that secretly, in Beverly Hills people support him. He's
Speaker 2: also very upset still after all these years, that he
Speaker 2: never won an Emmy for The Apprentice. But that's a
Speaker 2: whole other story.
Speaker 1: And ah, I mean, look, at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: the Apprincess was legendary. It was an iconic show. I
Speaker 1: am shocked and did not win an Emmy. Speaking of
Speaker 1: which two more questions. Did you speak to Mark Burnett
Speaker 1: at all?
Speaker 2: Mark Burnett and I communicated for this book. He did
Speaker 2: not want to do an official on the record interview.
Speaker 2: But he is in this book and you will see
Speaker 2: how he's in this book when you read the book.
Speaker 2: But his presence is certainly in the book throughout the book.
Speaker 1: Oh, he's so legendary. I just he was.
Speaker 2: One of the stories that was interesting was that he
Speaker 2: really really really hates the contestants when they came into
Speaker 2: audition for the show. So there was a Contestancias and won.
Speaker 2: Her name was Heidi. She was a fan favorite. She
Speaker 2: told me when she walked in. The first thing he
Speaker 2: said to her was, Oh, that purse that you have
Speaker 2: is a fake perse She was carrying a Gucci at
Speaker 2: the time, and he did that to really try to
Speaker 2: rile her up to see what kind of reality star
Speaker 2: she would be. But there's a lot if you love
Speaker 2: reality TV, there's also a lot in this book where
Speaker 2: it deconstructs the process in which they found the contestants,
Speaker 2: what it was like behind the scenes, because he's again
Speaker 2: this was in the early days of reality TV. How
Speaker 2: Mark Burnett pulled all the levers they had. They were
Speaker 2: all once they were vote off the show. They all
Speaker 2: lived together in a hotel, but they gave up their phones,
Speaker 2: they gave it their wallets, They had no contact with
Speaker 2: the outside world. They really controlled these contestants to try
Speaker 2: to make sure that they weren't influencing what was happening.
Speaker 2: And Donald Trump, weirdly enough, hung out with them when
Speaker 2: the cameras weren't rolling. So with other reality hosts, they
Speaker 2: really don't want to be near the contestants when the
Speaker 2: show's over. But Donald Trump really liked them. But we
Speaker 2: go into the whole process and we see how Mark
Speaker 2: Burnett was the ultimate puppet master and really controlling everyone.
Speaker 1: Mmmmmmmmmmm. Okay, So last question for you. This is Juicy one, okay,
Speaker 1: and the book Trump shares his biggest regret in show business.
Speaker 2: His biggest regret in show business. He claims that Jeff
Speaker 2: Zucker got his job in CNN because Donald Trump helped
Speaker 2: him and gave him a recommendation with an influential executive
Speaker 2: at CNN. And so Donald Trump thought that by helping
Speaker 2: Jeff Zucker go to CNN, he would always get really
Speaker 2: nice coverage from CNN. And then they had a huge
Speaker 2: crazy falling out. But wait, can I tell you one
Speaker 2: more thing, one more story, one more story.
Speaker 1: By all means yes.
Speaker 2: So the funniest story that he told me, And it
Speaker 2: wasn't intentionally trying to be funny, but he had. The
Speaker 2: entire family has a tremendous affection for John Rivers. She
Speaker 2: won the second season of Celebrity Apprentice. She was, you know,
Speaker 2: her care was in a tough place, and then she
Speaker 2: came back because of the show and ended up doing
Speaker 2: more on e and was in one of the Iron
Speaker 2: Man movies, iron Man three, I think, And so being
Speaker 2: on the Celebrity Apprentice really helped Joan and she credited
Speaker 2: Donald Trump with a lot of that. And so Donald
Speaker 2: Trump told me, he said that Joan really, you know,
Speaker 2: respected her, respected him. Joan really respected Donald Trump and
Speaker 2: really admired him. And he said, I know for a
Speaker 2: fact that Joan Rivers voted for me in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 2: The only problem with that was that Joan Rivers wasn't alive.
Speaker 2: But again, he's a reality star. He knows the good
Speaker 2: sound lights to say they're not true. But that's a
Speaker 2: great confessional watch on a reality show. And then the
Speaker 2: producer would have to cut to like someone else saying, actually,
Speaker 2: mister President, he's no longer with it, she was no
Speaker 2: longer with us.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, and everyone you have it there. I mean, listen,
Speaker 1: this book is so juicy. I literally want to nestle
Speaker 1: up in my bed, like like I did with The
Speaker 1: Ladies Who Punched. By the way, I like read that
Speaker 1: over three day weekend. I was like flying and I'm
Speaker 1: like on the plane, I had a long flight. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I was so into it because you're such a genius
Speaker 1: at making us the reader feel like we're in the
Speaker 1: room having these conversations that you're having with these people,
Speaker 1: and the access that you're able to get is just splendid.
Speaker 1: It's I mean, job well done on this. And I listen,
Speaker 1: I smell another best seller from you with this one,
Speaker 1: my friend. It's thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Let me know when you read it. And I think
Speaker 2: you can just read it on a beach over the
Speaker 2: holiday weekend or if you're going on a trip somewhere,
Speaker 2: like it's a fast read and I can't wait to
Speaker 2: hear what you think.
Speaker 1: No, I certainly will, certainly will so again. Rain Drops
Speaker 1: Apprentice in Wonderland is out in stores. Now is out
Speaker 1: in bookstores and they can get this like online, where
Speaker 1: can everyone get this?
Speaker 2: Amazon? You can get a Kindle version, you can get
Speaker 2: an audiobook version. It's wherever books are sold, Bars and Noble.
Speaker 2: It's a widely released book and you can get it
Speaker 2: wherever books are sold.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for hopping on Reality with the
Speaker 1: King has been an honor and a pleasure to meet you. Finally,
Speaker 1: like I said, I'm a huge fan of your work
Speaker 1: and I know I'm going to be a huge fan
Speaker 1: of this book too. Thank you for listening to Reality
Speaker 1: with the King. New episodes drop on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Share, comment, follow,
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