1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,400
Speaker 1: Hey, guys, I'm Kaylie Shore, and this is too much

2
00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:19,360
Speaker 1: to say question out you. I'm super excited this week

3
00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,239
Speaker 1: because we're talking about something that's not super exciting, but

4
00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:24,120
Speaker 1: something that I want more people to know about, and

5
00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,400
Speaker 1: it is songwriter royalty reform and the way that we

6
00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,360
Speaker 1: get just absolutely fucked by the music industry and we're

7
00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:32,000
Speaker 1: the ones who create the song. So we have a

8
00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:36,120
Speaker 1: really cool spectrum of people on the show today. Um.

9
00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,080
Speaker 1: First off, we have my friend Hannah Avison, who I

10
00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,440
Speaker 1: write with a bunch, and she's gonna tell you guys

11
00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,920
Speaker 1: all about what it's like as a up and coming

12
00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:45,800
Speaker 1: writer and trying to figure out how to monetize that.

13
00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,040
Speaker 1: And then on the opposite side of things, are gonna

14
00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,320
Speaker 1: have Max from Eve six, one of my favorite bands

15
00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:52,559
Speaker 1: from the nineties. Uh. He's going to come on and

16
00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,360
Speaker 1: talk about their experience with their hit song inside Out

17
00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:00,760
Speaker 1: and how they have never seen a penny from Spotify royalties. Okay, guys,

18
00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:02,960
Speaker 1: so we're here with my friend Hannah, who was a

19
00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,760
Speaker 1: songwriter and a frequent collaborator of mine. If you guys

20
00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,160
Speaker 1: have seen some of my videos on TikTok, we wrote

21
00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,360
Speaker 1: a song called Airis Together we wrote a new one

22
00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,080
Speaker 1: called Gun to My Head that I'm obsessed with. I'll

23
00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,679
Speaker 1: tell you guys about um. But she's an amazing writer

24
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,880
Speaker 1: and is a multi genre songwriter. Hustle is really hard,

25
00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,560
Speaker 1: and she is a really outspoken advocate for songwriter writes.

26
00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,520
Speaker 1: And she's going to share with you some of the

27
00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,680
Speaker 1: baseline facts for how funked up this ship is also

28
00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,000
Speaker 1: side note Hannah, Um, you can say anywhere do you

29
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,320
Speaker 1: want on here? Already have an explicit mark on my podcast. Um,

30
00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:41,880
Speaker 1: let me just get it out of the way. Fuck um. Yes.

31
00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,160
Speaker 1: So the reason I got into songwriting advocacy is because

32
00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,320
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago it was Grammy season and

33
00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:52,200
Speaker 1: I had this realization that there's no category for songwriter

34
00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,160
Speaker 1: of the Year at the Grammys. There's Producer of the Year,

35
00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:57,840
Speaker 1: the song of the Year, but there's not an award

36
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:02,600
Speaker 1: for the songwriter who knocks out of the parts, you

37
00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,280
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, Michael's Ed Sharon, He

38
00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:07,640
Speaker 1: writes a much for other so so many songs that

39
00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:09,639
Speaker 1: have done well, but there's no category for that. And

40
00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:14,280
Speaker 1: I had and ugly, ugly, ugly cry, um mascared down

41
00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,320
Speaker 1: the face ugly cry, and then I took pictures of

42
00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,679
Speaker 1: it because I look ridiculous, and I told myself I

43
00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,120
Speaker 1: wouldn't let myself ugly cry like that again. Um, if

44
00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,399
Speaker 1: I wasn't trying to make a difference. If I'm trying

45
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:27,520
Speaker 1: to make a difference, I can cry all I want.

46
00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,280
Speaker 1: But if I'm not trying to make a difference, I

47
00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,160
Speaker 1: love that. And you also never complained in a general

48
00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,240
Speaker 1: grand scheme of things. You never complained to me about

49
00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:35,920
Speaker 1: things that you're not willing to try to fix. And

50
00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,840
Speaker 1: that's like a really rough thing to listen to people

51
00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,880
Speaker 1: do and like being proactive, And I mean, the thing

52
00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:43,320
Speaker 1: is like a lot of these people listening to my

53
00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,360
Speaker 1: podcast are huge music fans, but maybe not in the

54
00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,880
Speaker 1: industry themselves and don't know about all this stuff and

55
00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:51,360
Speaker 1: don't know how hard it is for us to make

56
00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,920
Speaker 1: a living. And like the crying thing might sound like melodramatic,

57
00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,519
Speaker 1: but it's not, because like songwriting is such a corner

58
00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:04,080
Speaker 1: stone of my being. It's like probably the first thing

59
00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,280
Speaker 1: I identify as before I even identify as a gender

60
00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,560
Speaker 1: or sexuality, and like I'm a songwriter. Everything was the second.

61
00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,840
Speaker 1: And it's like it takes so much passion to dive

62
00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,760
Speaker 1: into this and to sign up for something where you're

63
00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:18,959
Speaker 1: not making any money and you're just pouring your heart

64
00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,959
Speaker 1: out in three minutes and ten seconds. And so seeing

65
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,000
Speaker 1: that the Grammys, which I've always had on a pedestal

66
00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,440
Speaker 1: and always wanted to win something, doesn't recognize the people

67
00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:32,680
Speaker 1: who actually create the songs that wouldn't exist. Like producers

68
00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:34,560
Speaker 1: are important, they add a lot to it, but like

69
00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,080
Speaker 1: the songs wouldn't exist without songwriters, and like what who

70
00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,840
Speaker 1: decided that we get sucked over? It's you know, it's

71
00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:42,240
Speaker 1: one of those things. And I'm gonna list this out

72
00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,480
Speaker 1: very I'm gonna be calculated about how I list this out,

73
00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,360
Speaker 1: because I wanted to dive into our first uh example

74
00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,520
Speaker 1: first like hard number example. But it wasn't just that

75
00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,360
Speaker 1: we weren't getting the recognition. That's not the only reason

76
00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:55,080
Speaker 1: I cried in mind you, I've been writing for twenty

77
00:03:55,120 --> 00:04:01,520
Speaker 1: three years professionally since UM. It's fact that there's a

78
00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,880
Speaker 1: huge lack of respect. There's so many times I've written

79
00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:05,760
Speaker 1: the entirety of a song and not been included on

80
00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,200
Speaker 1: the label email chain. UM songs have gone out without

81
00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:15,200
Speaker 1: me signing contracts, percentages. I've been bullied. The bullying in

82
00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,520
Speaker 1: our industry is outrageous because I know that we're the

83
00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,920
Speaker 1: like weakest. We're in the least like position of powers,

84
00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,680
Speaker 1: which I don't know how that ever happened, but like

85
00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,880
Speaker 1: bottom of the totem pole for sure. And most songwriters

86
00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,960
Speaker 1: can have had horrible experiences, um, just being knockdown time

87
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,920
Speaker 1: after time after time, um, and then finally, like you

88
00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,760
Speaker 1: were saying, financially, this is a job. We go into

89
00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,560
Speaker 1: work every single day, work our butts off and are

90
00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,840
Speaker 1: not compensated for our trade we put in our ten

91
00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,680
Speaker 1: thousand hours. If I was a mechanic, I wouldn't just

92
00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,360
Speaker 1: do like fixed cars because I love fixing cars. I

93
00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:56,880
Speaker 1: need to be paid for what I do. I can

94
00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:58,480
Speaker 1: still love it, but I need to be paid for that.

95
00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,000
Speaker 1: And right now, it is un sustainable to be a songwriter.

96
00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,800
Speaker 1: Every successful songwriter I know has other jobs other side

97
00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,719
Speaker 1: hustles because royalties alone, which by the way, for listeners

98
00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,240
Speaker 1: who are learning about this, that is how songwriters make

99
00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:15,760
Speaker 1: their money purely on royalties. Um, it's not enough. The

100
00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,679
Speaker 1: numbers are bad right well, And I am really lucky

101
00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:20,640
Speaker 1: because I have a publishing deal, which means that I

102
00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:25,240
Speaker 1: get a quote unquote draw but that's a an advance,

103
00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,840
Speaker 1: so I actually don't make any money per year. They

104
00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:29,960
Speaker 1: pay my rent, but I have to pay all of

105
00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:31,680
Speaker 1: that back. And right now I'm in the process of

106
00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,599
Speaker 1: recouping from this really big song that I had with

107
00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,880
Speaker 1: ups All, which has like fifty million streams. I think

108
00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,360
Speaker 1: it might be my first cold record, Fingers Crossed, But

109
00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,279
Speaker 1: I haven't actually seen any money from it yet because

110
00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,560
Speaker 1: I haven't recouped and I have three years of shipped

111
00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,200
Speaker 1: even a really good metaphor. The other day, when we

112
00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,680
Speaker 1: were talking about what labels are and what publishing UM

113
00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,440
Speaker 1: deals are and they their credit cards, it is a

114
00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,320
Speaker 1: money that you will have to pay back, and not

115
00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,000
Speaker 1: that this is the discussion of this talk today, but

116
00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,200
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of these deals that people did

117
00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:07,560
Speaker 1: from back in the day are kind of prison sentences

118
00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,840
Speaker 1: because they're impossible to get out of and you were

119
00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,320
Speaker 1: pretty much in debt to these companies your entire life.

120
00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,760
Speaker 1: I liked that because the first deal I had UM

121
00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,680
Speaker 1: they just closed and like packed up their bags and

122
00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,240
Speaker 1: ran away from Nashville. So I got to be like, okay, like,

123
00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,640
Speaker 1: well yes that's done, so yeah it works out. UM,

124
00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:29,960
Speaker 1: But you're going to share some numbers with yes, okay,

125
00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,840
Speaker 1: so there is any because this is this is dark.

126
00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:34,680
Speaker 1: The first one I want to share is, this is

127
00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,320
Speaker 1: an image that's been passed around the internet in the

128
00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,320
Speaker 1: music songwriter, engineer, producer, artist community in the past a

129
00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,000
Speaker 1: couple of weeks um and basically someone created a US

130
00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:50,520
Speaker 1: mechanical royalty calculator. So in this particular example, I feel

131
00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:52,960
Speaker 1: like I'm teaching a math class. I have a word person.

132
00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:57,320
Speaker 1: Math is never my strong suit. But so so we're

133
00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:58,920
Speaker 1: talking about DSPs. And if you don't know what a

134
00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,840
Speaker 1: DSP is, it's based play any streaming platform like Spotify, um,

135
00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:07,600
Speaker 1: Amazon Music, Apple Music title and yeah, at least at

136
00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:12,840
Speaker 1: the same time twins. But yeah, And the fact is,

137
00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,200
Speaker 1: right now we are fighting to get higher streaming royalty

138
00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:22,840
Speaker 1: rates because right now, again are publishing is pennies. So

139
00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,520
Speaker 1: in this example, you're gonna see exactly how fraction fraction

140
00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,320
Speaker 1: fraction fractions of pennies. So in this example, you're gonna

141
00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,800
Speaker 1: see how bad it is and how even if you

142
00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,080
Speaker 1: wrote a wildly successful song, how that is not sustainable

143
00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:41,440
Speaker 1: for a life. So in this example, the songwriter is

144
00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,920
Speaker 1: saying they got thirty three of the record, which is

145
00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,480
Speaker 1: pretty normal on the publishing side, if you did a

146
00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,200
Speaker 1: three way split, so say there was a producer in

147
00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:53,120
Speaker 1: the room, you and another songwriter, and the music scene,

148
00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,880
Speaker 1: especially in the pop music scene, equal splits are pretty common. Um,

149
00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:02,440
Speaker 1: so this songwriter got thirty of the publishing. Now this

150
00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,400
Speaker 1: example in the song example, Um, that song got a

151
00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,920
Speaker 1: hundred a million streams, a million streams. No, that's a

152
00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,040
Speaker 1: hundred million, a hundred millions streams. Again, we're not good

153
00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,720
Speaker 1: at numbers, but numbers streams, I don't know her numbers.

154
00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,360
Speaker 1: A hundred million streams, So a hundred million streams with

155
00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,560
Speaker 1: thirty three percent. Everyone at home, think about how much

156
00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:25,680
Speaker 1: money you think that songwriter made with her one third

157
00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:29,640
Speaker 1: of that publishing hundred million. How many people live in

158
00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,720
Speaker 1: New York that we've we've got more, Well, it's like

159
00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,240
Speaker 1: a lot of people. It's a lot of people. And

160
00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,760
Speaker 1: hear me out. Not every song is getting a hundred

161
00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,880
Speaker 1: million streams. That's an outrageous number that people get excited about.

162
00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,040
Speaker 1: My biggest quo has four million. Just for some perspective,

163
00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,240
Speaker 1: that songwriter made six thousand, nine hundred and sixty one

164
00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:57,040
Speaker 1: dollars in thirty five cents, that is it. And that's

165
00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,160
Speaker 1: a hundred million streams, one third of a hundred millions.

166
00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,960
Speaker 1: And that's only I own all of their publishing right now.

167
00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:06,200
Speaker 1: This is right, But yes, your success if they don't

168
00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:08,520
Speaker 1: have a publishing deal, if they're independent, because if they

169
00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:10,839
Speaker 1: have a publishing deal, you can let split it in

170
00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,959
Speaker 1: a half. Yes, but half. Um, my first deal, it

171
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,560
Speaker 1: would have been split in half, so it would have

172
00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,920
Speaker 1: been like twelve percent. My current deal, I own sevent

173
00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,440
Speaker 1: of my publishing, which is really I lucked out on that.

174
00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,160
Speaker 1: That's not standard for people at my point in a career.

175
00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, so like six out, you're lucky if you

176
00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,640
Speaker 1: got absolutely And think about like if you my car,

177
00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,400
Speaker 1: if you worked an HR job and you were making

178
00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,719
Speaker 1: k a year later. Mind you, this is all we

179
00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,079
Speaker 1: make our money on. And I'm gonna be honest, I'm

180
00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,760
Speaker 1: gonna be really transparent with everyone right now. I worked

181
00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:47,679
Speaker 1: my butt off and I've had more releases in this

182
00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,440
Speaker 1: past year than I've ever had. I got my VA

183
00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,280
Speaker 1: my statement, I mean a hundred and twenty five dollars

184
00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:59,480
Speaker 1: this year, like my tax statement. Um, and so yes,

185
00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:01,720
Speaker 1: these numbers are so small and when you see like

186
00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,000
Speaker 1: writers and producers and artists in these like fancy outfits

187
00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,480
Speaker 1: driving these fancy cars. Like, here's the transparency. They're borrowed.

188
00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,720
Speaker 1: They're borrowed their second hand they're rented. Oh, I use

189
00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:13,520
Speaker 1: rent the runway. So if you ever see me with

190
00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,160
Speaker 1: like a person like it, it's not mine, it's we

191
00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,520
Speaker 1: got it into a thrift store, our secret thrift store.

192
00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,240
Speaker 1: I usually talk about them, no, but I think there's

193
00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,160
Speaker 1: like this big thing with our industry of fake it

194
00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,600
Speaker 1: till you make it mentality, because if you look really

195
00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,320
Speaker 1: dope and successful, you're gonna get more opportunities. My manager

196
00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,760
Speaker 1: always says, you have to look like a million dollars

197
00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,040
Speaker 1: and spend twenty And that's why I'm so happy that

198
00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:37,679
Speaker 1: we're having this talk right now, because I think it's

199
00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:42,120
Speaker 1: really important for the consumer, you guys, or um, any

200
00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,040
Speaker 1: listener really to know the real truth about it, because

201
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,480
Speaker 1: the issue is labels and publishers they don't care about

202
00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:50,080
Speaker 1: the creatives, not all of them. Some of them do.

203
00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,280
Speaker 1: There's some really good eggs out there, but mostly no.

204
00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:54,959
Speaker 1: And so I think the way we make a change

205
00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,400
Speaker 1: is we get the consumer fired up. Yeah, we need

206
00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:00,520
Speaker 1: you guys to be like this is I'm fair and

207
00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:02,520
Speaker 1: fight with us. If you've ever had a song that

208
00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:03,920
Speaker 1: made you fall in love, or you ever had a

209
00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,120
Speaker 1: song that makes you keel through a breakup or helped

210
00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,160
Speaker 1: you after losing somebody, we need your help because what

211
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,600
Speaker 1: we're doing is just not We're not able to financially exist.

212
00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,920
Speaker 1: So there's publishing on something, and then there's also a master,

213
00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,480
Speaker 1: which is like, that's just I mean, I don't know

214
00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,680
Speaker 1: the physical sound recording, the physical Yeah, the physical sound recording,

215
00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,560
Speaker 1: and there's a hundred points on it. Um. Usually the

216
00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,760
Speaker 1: like producer gets like fifty. Um, it really really varies,

217
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,440
Speaker 1: but there's a hundred points to divvy up amongst the

218
00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,640
Speaker 1: people who created the song. So I say that the

219
00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,560
Speaker 1: most typically goes to the record label, the second most

220
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,280
Speaker 1: goes to the artists, and then the producer and everything

221
00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,360
Speaker 1: else just kind of trickles down. Um. But songwriters are

222
00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,760
Speaker 1: fighting for the right to have points on the master

223
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,600
Speaker 1: because Um, Hannah brought up a really great point earlier

224
00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:54,880
Speaker 1: when we were talking, which is that as n f

225
00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:56,920
Speaker 1: T has become more popular, if an n f T

226
00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,800
Speaker 1: of a song was going to sell for a hundred

227
00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,000
Speaker 1: thousand dollars, the songwriter would see none of that because

228
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,040
Speaker 1: it's only on the master, which makes no sense of

229
00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,800
Speaker 1: recording right Um. Yeah, No, It's like one of those

230
00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:15,960
Speaker 1: really really sad things when you create something so like

231
00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:17,920
Speaker 1: we're talking about the publishing is literally for the lyric

232
00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:19,560
Speaker 1: and melody set and then like you know, like the

233
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:22,400
Speaker 1: what makes it up if you were to like write

234
00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,000
Speaker 1: it out on sheet music, like that's what you have, um,

235
00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,640
Speaker 1: But the master is that physical sound recording, and when

236
00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:31,240
Speaker 1: you don't own any of that, you're not you don't

237
00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,360
Speaker 1: own any of the actual really what's happening with the

238
00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,640
Speaker 1: song right like which is what people are hearing on

239
00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,760
Speaker 1: the radio that particularly one recording. Um, And you want

240
00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:41,760
Speaker 1: to have steak in it because end of the day,

241
00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,280
Speaker 1: like that's like what could be sold as an n

242
00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,040
Speaker 1: F t UM and you it's another way to make

243
00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,920
Speaker 1: money as a songwriter just to have like I don't know,

244
00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,480
Speaker 1: a tiny bit of ownership in your song, baby, that

245
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:55,680
Speaker 1: like a lot of it, even if we write it

246
00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:57,840
Speaker 1: with another artist or it's not it's like cut, it's

247
00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,680
Speaker 1: still about our lives. And so there's something like really

248
00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,640
Speaker 1: depressing about other people owning your stories if you think

249
00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:06,240
Speaker 1: about it. That was the whole Taylor Shift thing. She

250
00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,360
Speaker 1: didn't own her master's um and so then she re

251
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,480
Speaker 1: recorded everything so she could own her masters on the

252
00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,200
Speaker 1: previous records. Yeah. Um, but so we're going to read

253
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,560
Speaker 1: you a specific story that was shared on this account

254
00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:22,440
Speaker 1: called poor fucking soone creator. And this one's actually been

255
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,559
Speaker 1: really good. It's been going everywhere recently, and it's I've

256
00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:27,560
Speaker 1: seen a lot of people posting about this one, but

257
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,120
Speaker 1: it's it's just it's an exchange between a songwriter and

258
00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,160
Speaker 1: a record label and shows you how much of like

259
00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,240
Speaker 1: a fucking asshole these people are capable of being. Okay,

260
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:44,280
Speaker 1: So this guy, Jensen Vaughan, songwriter exposed this one label

261
00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:46,960
Speaker 1: they had. It is very normal to ask, by the way,

262
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,880
Speaker 1: all the creatives out there always ask, always ask for master,

263
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,880
Speaker 1: always ask for a fee. Don't be afraid. I know

264
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:55,880
Speaker 1: we've been given many reasons to be afraid, but don't

265
00:13:55,920 --> 00:14:03,000
Speaker 1: be afraid. Negotiation is normal. This is a business. So um,

266
00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:04,240
Speaker 1: this is what they said, and I thought it was

267
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,880
Speaker 1: very well put to my songwriter friends who pour their

268
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,720
Speaker 1: soul into a project only to be met with emails

269
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,440
Speaker 1: like these when requesting just a couple of points on

270
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,480
Speaker 1: the master keep standing up for what is right. Together

271
00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,440
Speaker 1: we can make a change. So Jensen had emailed this

272
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:21,600
Speaker 1: label asking for a couple of points on the Master,

273
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,600
Speaker 1: just to have some steak in the song, and they said, hey, Jensen,

274
00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,040
Speaker 1: will wait on publishing to be locked. I have to

275
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,080
Speaker 1: let you know though, we do not pay writers on

276
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,200
Speaker 1: the Master at blank. It is a non negotiable standard

277
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,400
Speaker 1: that we have here. So that's the extent of there,

278
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:43,000
Speaker 1: you know. Okay, So this is Jensen's response, Hey, blank,

279
00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,880
Speaker 1: I already received one percent of the master four blank,

280
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,040
Speaker 1: so this is definitely not true in all cases. That said,

281
00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,760
Speaker 1: you should probably not hold such views as a label,

282
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,360
Speaker 1: and if that your standard, it's not a fair one.

283
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,560
Speaker 1: The climate of the music had business has changed dramatically

284
00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,080
Speaker 1: in the recent years, and songwriter across the board are

285
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,440
Speaker 1: now asking for a small Masters share as they otherwise

286
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,800
Speaker 1: received nearly nothing from streaming Facts Facts Facts. It has

287
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,360
Speaker 1: become a completely unfair business that is totally skewed in

288
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,360
Speaker 1: favor of labels with respect to streaming revenue. This is

289
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,240
Speaker 1: a widely known issue, with many of the biggest songwriters

290
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,480
Speaker 1: shining a light on the problem demanding change, therefore telling

291
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,640
Speaker 1: me that this is non negotiable is really the same

292
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,360
Speaker 1: as you saying we don't care about paying you fairly

293
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,720
Speaker 1: as a songwriter. That is not something I can accept.

294
00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,120
Speaker 1: That said, You're going to have to negotiate with me

295
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,000
Speaker 1: on this if you want to release the song, Otherwise

296
00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,840
Speaker 1: I will have to say no. That is my standard

297
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:38,800
Speaker 1: for the songs I create. Feel free to discuss this

298
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,040
Speaker 1: internally and let me know either way. I'm only asking

299
00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,280
Speaker 1: to be compensated fairly for the work that I've done

300
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,440
Speaker 1: snap snap snaps for Jensen freaking important in the fact

301
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,160
Speaker 1: that Jensen put this out there, every songwriter I know

302
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,080
Speaker 1: has had this email where they just said, no, we've

303
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,440
Speaker 1: been on that email chain in some extent, like yeah,

304
00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,600
Speaker 1: it's that's not that's not even a horror story. That's

305
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:05,120
Speaker 1: just kind of a story story. And I'm not sure

306
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,400
Speaker 1: if this was from when we did a little edit,

307
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,880
Speaker 1: but like I was saying, there is a lot of money,

308
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,600
Speaker 1: especially within the major labels, so this is not should

309
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:20,800
Speaker 1: not be an issue, Um yeah it is. Uh, it

310
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,160
Speaker 1: is heartbreaking because I think there's a lot of issues

311
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,720
Speaker 1: with art industry right now, and this is one way

312
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:28,360
Speaker 1: that song waters gonna be called to say there's other

313
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,240
Speaker 1: way songwriters canna be compensated. Songwriters out there asked for

314
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:35,080
Speaker 1: a fee, yeah, and it's it's kind of tricky too

315
00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,800
Speaker 1: because like, so I'm a songwriter who writes for other people,

316
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:42,000
Speaker 1: I'm also an artist and UM, a lot of times,

317
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,320
Speaker 1: like I had to give out the points on my

318
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,440
Speaker 1: master from my percentage of the master of my record deal,

319
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:53,200
Speaker 1: which was only which is like and like, yes, they

320
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,440
Speaker 1: fund it, but that's still in advance, Like I still

321
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,720
Speaker 1: have to pay back my advance to my record label.

322
00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,200
Speaker 1: So no one's given me money. They've given me money

323
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,760
Speaker 1: I have to pay back, and I guess the only

324
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,000
Speaker 1: difference is there's no interest on it really, so it's

325
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,800
Speaker 1: like a pretty good credit card, but still credit cardly

326
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,200
Speaker 1: you have to pay back. And so we're dealing. I'm

327
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,960
Speaker 1: already like down to ownership of my fucking song that

328
00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,159
Speaker 1: I recorded that I honestly paid the record out of

329
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,920
Speaker 1: my advance, which is not very standard. And that's where

330
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:24,760
Speaker 1: those are the points that I have to give out

331
00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,920
Speaker 1: to other people. So then I give my share to

332
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:33,480
Speaker 1: my producer, my managers make you know, um collectively on

333
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,080
Speaker 1: that and UM. At one point when I saw a

334
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,760
Speaker 1: business manager, I did the math, and I was making

335
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,480
Speaker 1: four cents on every dollar that I earned and that

336
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:48,199
Speaker 1: was before taxes. Um, yeah, I think that. And so

337
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,159
Speaker 1: I have to literally in order to get a dollar,

338
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,639
Speaker 1: I have to stream like probably thousands of times right

339
00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,679
Speaker 1: in order to earn a dollar on my master to

340
00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:58,840
Speaker 1: begin with. So I have to even get to that

341
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,920
Speaker 1: point before it's starts getting divvied up, and that one

342
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:05,080
Speaker 1: dollar takes thousands of streams and then I'm getting four

343
00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:08,040
Speaker 1: cents of that dollar and then and that's me as

344
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,320
Speaker 1: the artist, Like what are the fucking songwriters getting? Yeah? Nothing?

345
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,800
Speaker 1: I uh. I do want to end on some good notes,

346
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,439
Speaker 1: that's okay, Um, I have Let's see, I have a

347
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,359
Speaker 1: delight part in story that I love as an example

348
00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:22,520
Speaker 1: the power of saying no, which makes me so happy.

349
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,040
Speaker 1: And I also want to shout out Sony Music Publishing

350
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:29,199
Speaker 1: because they are actively being allies. So I worked with

351
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,320
Speaker 1: a group called the hund Percenters. I absolutely love them.

352
00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,960
Speaker 1: I think Tiffany Read is a shining lighter industry and

353
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,800
Speaker 1: I I just admire the hell out of her and

354
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:39,840
Speaker 1: all the work she does and how she stands up

355
00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,320
Speaker 1: for songwriters and has been I'm going to be linking

356
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,520
Speaker 1: some really great accounts to follow in the description of this,

357
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,119
Speaker 1: and so you'll be able to see Tiffany and how

358
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:48,800
Speaker 1: I spoken she is. You also be able to follow

359
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,240
Speaker 1: Hannah Um the hundred Percenters and poor Facing Songwriters, which

360
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,720
Speaker 1: I got the description to follow them. But but yes,

361
00:18:55,960 --> 00:19:01,520
Speaker 1: is uh. We have been, you know, talking with Sony

362
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,359
Speaker 1: Music Publishing. They've posted about us as well. They're an

363
00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,440
Speaker 1: alliance with us in a bunch of other really great

364
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,600
Speaker 1: organizations and they're trying to be the best advocates possible

365
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,119
Speaker 1: for songwriters. They just announced if you were signed to

366
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,240
Speaker 1: Sony Music Publishing, they will be helping with mental health

367
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,800
Speaker 1: and wellness, getting counseling for their writers. Yeah. We also

368
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:21,560
Speaker 1: don't get any health care about if it's or anything.

369
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, this is like a job without the benefits.

370
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,560
Speaker 1: We don't have an anti art department either, so use

371
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:28,800
Speaker 1: an HR department. But I wanted to shout out Sony

372
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:34,240
Speaker 1: Music Publishing for being allies to songwriters and doing things

373
00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:36,240
Speaker 1: to make our lives better. And I think it's the

374
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,560
Speaker 1: great first step what they're doing with mental health and

375
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:41,800
Speaker 1: counseling and all that good stuff, because it's very important

376
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:43,680
Speaker 1: not to mention that in order to be a songwriter,

377
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:45,640
Speaker 1: it's kind of a prerequisite they're at least a little

378
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,040
Speaker 1: bit mentally ill to be. To be completely honest, like,

379
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,359
Speaker 1: I do not know a single artist or writer who

380
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,680
Speaker 1: doesn't have that, you know, in them, because I think

381
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,640
Speaker 1: that's why you create, is you have this like deep

382
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:00,760
Speaker 1: need to do it because if things as you've gone through,

383
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,280
Speaker 1: and so like every songwriter at least has like trauma

384
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:09,199
Speaker 1: and like desperately needs that mental healthcare. M absolutely, I

385
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,679
Speaker 1: My anxiety helps me often. But I want to end

386
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:19,360
Speaker 1: this on one quick story for the songwriters, artists, producers,

387
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,680
Speaker 1: engineers listening who were like, I want to follow suit,

388
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 1: but I'm scared. Don't be scared, And let me tell

389
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,359
Speaker 1: you a story about Dolly Parton where she was the

390
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:33,360
Speaker 1: most badass. So Dolly Parton had written the song uh,

391
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,960
Speaker 1: I Will Always Love You, Uh. Big Whitney used some

392
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:43,160
Speaker 1: song um and she had written the song and at

393
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:48,120
Speaker 1: the time, Elvis Presley was the beasnees like the top

394
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,879
Speaker 1: of it. Everyone wanted a song with Elvis Presley and

395
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 1: he wanted to cut that song. And she was elated

396
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,400
Speaker 1: and she was like, oh my god, like Elvis Presley

397
00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,800
Speaker 1: is cutting my song. That's so exciting. And then she

398
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,440
Speaker 1: found out that they wanted to take of the publishing,

399
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 1: and publishing is for the person who writes, and Elvis

400
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with nothing to do with the writing,

401
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,440
Speaker 1: and so she thought about it. She turned him down.

402
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,760
Speaker 1: She went home and cried, but she stood by. She

403
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,199
Speaker 1: stood by what she knew was right, which was not

404
00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,480
Speaker 1: giving up half of her publishing for someone who didn't

405
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:28,320
Speaker 1: write present and then she put out the song. Whitney

406
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,160
Speaker 1: Houston put out the song taking no publishing. They both

407
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,640
Speaker 1: they both got number ones in country and and that

408
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,840
Speaker 1: it was just like such like, how can you imagine

409
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,680
Speaker 1: like having this like total value of didn't like, oh

410
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:43,200
Speaker 1: did I mess up by not giving this song to

411
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,280
Speaker 1: someone big and then having it be an astronomical hit

412
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 1: with another person who respected your publishing situation. It's absolutely amazing.

413
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,960
Speaker 1: So the power of no stand up for yourself songwriters

414
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:59,159
Speaker 1: music and a complete sense. But yes, thank you so

415
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 1: much for chatting with me today. Well thank you Anna

416
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 1: for talking up. Next, we're gonna be talking to Max

417
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,760
Speaker 1: from my one of my favorite bands growing up, Eve six.

418
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 1: I adore them and he has a very very real life,

419
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 1: big example of how songwriters and artists book get sucked

420
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:29,000
Speaker 1: over and so, um, we'll be right back. Alright, guys,

421
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 1: So I am here with Max from EVE six. I'm

422
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,399
Speaker 1: super super pumped to have him here. Uh. Eve six

423
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 1: was They've been around since the mid nineties. They started

424
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 1: in southern California. They have some massive hits like Inside

425
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,440
Speaker 1: Out and Here's to the Night. Um. I also really

426
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,440
Speaker 1: really enjoyed their new single that just came out last week.

427
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,679
Speaker 1: It's called Revolution Show. I think I said that right

428
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,440
Speaker 1: and m Max has had a big and hilarious resurgeons

429
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:58,119
Speaker 1: on Twitter with his outspoken commentary on the nineties rock scene, sobriety, politics,

430
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 1: and many anecdotes about their eye blind guy k Stephen Jenkins.

431
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,880
Speaker 1: So I'm so excited to have you on the show. Max,

432
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,199
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. So this week's episode, like I

433
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,679
Speaker 1: was saying earlier, guys, is about having um you know,

434
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 1: talking about songwriter royalty reform on DSPs like Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon,

435
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 1: literally anywhere you can stream music, and how um ironically

436
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 1: Napster pays the most royalties out of anyone, which is insane.

437
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 1: But you, guys, so you've never been paid for the

438
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 1: Spotify streams of Inside Out correct. Yeah, the way it

439
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 1: works is Spotify, and I think a lot of people

440
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: are more aware of this now than they were even

441
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:43,719
Speaker 1: a week ago. But UM, Spotify pays to the master

442
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 1: owner the lions share and UM. The master owner tends

443
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 1: to be the record company, especially if it's a band

444
00:23:54,960 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 1: that signed their deal UM pre dreaming before before the

445
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 1: advent of the technology. So UM Spotify made deals UM

446
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 1: the details of which are still not UM public with

447
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 1: major record labels too. Uh. Basically give them ownership and

448
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 1: Spotify UM considerable percentages of ownership and Spotify. So uh,

449
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: Sony are we we signed with our c A. Sony

450
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 1: is the parent parent company. UM owns our Master recordings,

451
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: and when we get Spotify streams, the money goes directly

452
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 1: back to Sony, who owns Spotify. So they're earning on

453
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 1: two different sides and you're earning on zero sides. Yeah yeah, yeah.

454
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 1: So for those of you guys who don't know, recruitment is,

455
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: you know, you get an advance. So like as Hannah

456
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,959
Speaker 1: and I were talking about earlier, I get an advance

457
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 1: from my publishing company, but I'm not actually making that money.

458
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 1: It's basically like a credit card that I have to

459
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 1: pay back to them, So you have to recoup, and

460
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 1: then you don't get to earn anything until you've paid

461
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 1: back via royalties what your record label and our publisher

462
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 1: has given you. So and you don't just recoup your advance,

463
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: you also recoup whatever the cost recording was, whatever the

464
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: marketing budget, support tour all music videos, music videos which

465
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 1: at the time when we were making them, were, you know,

466
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: cost an obscene amount of money. So yeah, there's a

467
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: whole lot of factors. The thing that we find most

468
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 1: kind of like, um egregious about it all is that

469
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 1: you know, the deal that we signed, you know, fourteen

470
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: or fifteen years before this technology even existed, is expected

471
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 1: to just default map on to streaming model where our

472
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 1: stupid band is still getting and shouldn't be getting. Frankly,

473
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: that's another That's another issue that I have with Spotify

474
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:12,199
Speaker 1: and their algorithms is the way they boost the familiar

475
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,719
Speaker 1: and so so like old stuff like ours is, you know,

476
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: we're getting one point three million streams a month on Spotify,

477
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: so like newer artists are competing with eve six in

478
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: a sort of asymmetrical competition. But um, yeah, I mean,

479
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: that's a lot of streams to be getting per month

480
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 1: and not getting paid for it because we signed on

481
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: literally an acronistic uh record deal. And for perspective, guys,

482
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: my biggest song on Spotify has four million streams and

483
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 1: I was stoked about that, and like that's I don't

484
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: even think it is right. There's a lot of people

485
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 1: and I mean I was able to like build a

486
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 1: torn career off that song, but hundred million streams on

487
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 1: inside out and like you haven't seen any that's insane. Yeah,

488
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 1: And so but I feel like I don't know how

489
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 1: this was legal to do because like, like you were

490
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 1: saying that technology didn't exist, but like you'd think they'd

491
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: have to go back and renegotiate deals in order to

492
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: transfer that deal over to a completely new technology. And

493
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: like songwriters didn't get to consent to making less money.

494
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like a violation of contracts somebody

495
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: because it wasn't included in it. Yeah, it does seem

496
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: like it really ought to be. Um, you know, I'm

497
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: not a lawyer obviously, and I don't like, Um, a

498
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: lot of this stuff is still not disclosed too, so

499
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: like these were back room deals and one of the

500
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: things that the Union of Musicians and Allied Workers, which

501
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 1: is the union that we're a lie with, is asking

502
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 1: for is for those deals that Spotify made with record

503
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: companies to be made public like just you know, show

504
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 1: show people the content of them. Um. And it's pretty

505
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 1: suspect that well, and isn't there like um, because I've

506
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: seen the playlists that are all from one label that

507
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: are on spot like Topsify. Do you know what that is?

508
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: I think that might be universal, but it's the ownership

509
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: in Spotify via playlisting, so they'll like have these like

510
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: what looks like editorial playlists but called tops off. I mean,

511
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 1: come on, and then it's all from one label, right

512
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: and essentially yeah, yeah, And again for for those of

513
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: you guys we want some context, Paola is the now

514
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: quote unquote band practice of paying record labels to or

515
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,479
Speaker 1: pay record labels, paying radio and streaming services and whatnot

516
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: to playlist to music and um just play it period

517
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: and it's um, it's a legal but I mean, god,

518
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: I lived in Nashville for a while and I know

519
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: a lot of like record labels that would take one

520
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: of the programmers out to a strip club and like

521
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: buy them on the Champagne and ship and it's like

522
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: that's still pay it's the same thing. Yeah. Yeah, the

523
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: industry just found ways to sort of adapt and work

524
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: around laws. Um. I mean when we were like in

525
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: in the nineties, the kind of like standard thing was

526
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: you want the radio station to play your song. You know,

527
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: you've got to play the radio station's festival for free. Um,

528
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: you know, make your way out there, do it for nothing. Soay, right,

529
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: And then that's where like recruitment kind of stacks up

530
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: because you're getting tour support from your label to do

531
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: promo right and working for free and it is it

532
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: is really good exposure to have that radio connection and

533
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,479
Speaker 1: they definitely are more likely to play your stuff if

534
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: you coming of them attention. We've talked about that in

535
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: the like episodes I've done on country because country is

536
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: like insane the radio game there. Um, and we're we're

537
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: on We're in an iHeart radio studio right now. But um,

538
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: they give me a lot of creative control in the

539
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,239
Speaker 1: sense that they never censored me on anything and I

540
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: get to be honest, which is great. But um, yeah,

541
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: it's uh. I think that a lot of people don't

542
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: know how much it costs to play a show, especially

543
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: if you're leasing a tour bus for what like eight

544
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: thousand dollars a month if you're lucky, um flights, if

545
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: you're not having a tour bus, hotels, you still have

546
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: to pay your backing musicians if they're not official members

547
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: of the band, and so it just stacks up and

548
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: then you're doing these for free and that you have

549
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: to pop all that the Yeah, it's insane. Um, you know.

550
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, people people get mad at

551
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: me for talking about this stuff and advocating for this

552
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: stuff because like the perception is, and I also understand it.

553
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: It's we're ductive to sort of say like I didn't

554
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: benefit at all or my band didn't benefit at all

555
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: from having a record deal, Like of course we did,

556
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: you know. Um. Like, and I do consider myself and

557
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: my band members lucky, you know. I mean we literally

558
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: were lucky, you know. Um, But people still buy tickets

559
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: to shows, like that's literally all we can ask for,

560
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: is like it still comes to you and care enough.

561
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: And well that's the other part of this story that

562
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: we've been like hammering home is in the last two

563
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: and a half years, when that income option, which is

564
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: really the only viable income stream left for artists was

565
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: throttled by the pandemic. Uh. The Musicians Union asked Spotify, like, hey,

566
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: considering we don't have the one thing that still pays

567
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: in the music business live shows, Um, how about a

568
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: penny per stream? And because Apple Music raised, there's two

569
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: a penny per stream? Right, yeah, I know Apple Music

570
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: is If not, they're they're close. Yeah. And then Spotify's

571
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: point zero zero zero three. I think that's the point

572
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: zero zero three, which again which again, if you have

573
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: a record deal, like and your record company owns you know,

574
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: even just part of your master uh, chunk of that

575
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: is going to the master owners. So what the artist

576
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: sees from that, uh you know, whether you're six or whomever,

577
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: is likely going to be a smaller chunk of that

578
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: point oh three per stream. Yeah. We were talking on

579
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: the earlier segment of this UM this episode about after

580
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: I pay out my label and my management and my

581
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 1: business management and um and then god forbid, I'm playing

582
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: a live show, but on royalty specifically, I make four

583
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: cents on every dollar, and so just to get to

584
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: that four cents, I have to stream thousands of times

585
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: just for that point zero zero three to turn into

586
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: a dollar and then I go back to making four

587
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: cents and it's like hurts, it's painful. I mean, systems

588
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: benefit the people who create the systems, you know, right,

589
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: And like this is a microcosm of of you know,

590
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: uh politics in America and you know, state power and stuff, um,

591
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: And like a lot of this has come to the

592
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: forefront and people have been talking about it, and I mean,

593
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: you guys have been super outspoken on Twitter, um, in

594
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: every aspect, but especially on this topic because all of

595
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: there's a big conversation right now because of Joe Rogan

596
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: and his podcast and how was it three hundred million

597
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: dollars he got as an advance from Spotify. I believe

598
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: he got three million dollar checks. Could be wrong about that,

599
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: but he's gotten a ton of money. Yeah, and we're

600
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: making that number backward zero zero sense And like you

601
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: you said, like, well, maybe don't d platform him, but

602
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 1: just give him what we make per stream. Yeah. I

603
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 1: don't think uh d platforming. I mean, I don't even

604
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: think the word has much meaning because you know it's

605
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: if Spotify kickstro roganoff, he'll hop to another platform who

606
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,280
Speaker 1: will also pay him a whole lot of money. Um,

607
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: he'll get more kind of cred with his fan base

608
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: for that, it will bolster his name even more and

609
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: likely and rich him even more. So, Um, I understand,

610
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: or there's no way to beat him, you know. Yeah.

611
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 1: And I don't think like d platforming is the answer. Um.

612
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: I think I think Rogan. Rogan is only important to

613
00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: me in that he sort of begs this like interrogation

614
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 1: lamp to be blasted on the whole thing because of

615
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 1: the disparity. It's it's like, um, you know, yeah, obviously

616
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: Brogan has a listenership in in the you know, tens

617
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: of millions. Um, But like Spotify was you know, created

618
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: um by the work of artists that's gone largely unpaid

619
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 1: for so um yeah, I mean that's I mean, I honestly,

620
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 1: if Joe Rogan was getting the same payment as artists

621
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: who cares? Who cares? Yeah and yeah, And like Spotify

622
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,720
Speaker 1: is built off music, I mean they just started putting

623
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 1: money behind podcasting and they were able to build this

624
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: massive company off of what we do. And obviously, like

625
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 1: we have a massive ootional attachment to it as well,

626
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: because these are like our our children. I mean, like

627
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 1: it's little melodramatic, but it's like it's not like I'm

628
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: just making something for fun, Like I'm like really digging

629
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 1: in and it just feels like it feels like a

630
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: personal upfront because you're like you're taking what, um, what's

631
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: that one song? It's like, ma, look what they did

632
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,399
Speaker 1: with to my song? Do you know that it's from

633
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: like the sixties or seventies, But it's it's really beautiful

634
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: and it's about like you know, uh, the music industry

635
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: just dissecting something and ruining it and whatever, and it's

636
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: like still so applicable. But um, I feel like a

637
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: big thing that nobody knows about you six, even myself

638
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 1: being a big fan, was that you were teenagers when

639
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: you signed your deal and when you wrote Inside Out

640
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 1: and um had that first record, Like you guys were teenagers.

641
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 1: That's crazy. And so do you feel like the label

642
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: was able to exploit that lack of knowledge and that

643
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 1: naivety because of your age and like getting to sign

644
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: a deal, Like, was there anything incredibly shady in your

645
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: deal or was it just like standard shady? It was

646
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: standard shady. When I brought up the edge thing in

647
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 1: in the context of this, it's it's more to illustrate

648
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: how preposterous preposterous it is that that deal that was

649
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: signed at that time is expected to map on to

650
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 1: today's uh music industry. We yeah, we had a lawyer

651
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: look at the contract. It was it was it was normal,

652
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: you know, um, and but normal to begin with is

653
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 1: already exploitative. Yeah, totally. Well, and then it's like, I

654
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: love just how it spoken. You guys have in and

655
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: but one thing that you were sharing on Twitter was

656
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 1: that you don't because they own your masters, You're not

657
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: able to pull it from Spotify even if you wanted

658
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 1: to pull you know, like all these other artists like

659
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: Jonny Mitchell, if you want to pull a Jonny Mitchell,

660
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: you couldn't, right, Yeah, an artist like Joni Mitchell or

661
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 1: Neil Young has the cloud and um, you know, fear

662
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: instilled in their label. Necessary to have an ask like

663
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 1: that be considered, um and then take an action on

664
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: you know, we would you know, a band like us.

665
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: It's like l O L Y if I took my

666
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: like thirty thousand monthly listeners and I was like, I'm leaving.

667
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 1: And also like, I mean there's so many things I'd

668
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: like to say no to on principle, like especially like

669
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: in the publishing world. But I'm not in a position

670
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 1: too because I need to just like I'm thankful that

671
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 1: I don't have to have a real job, you know.

672
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: I mean, this is as far away from music as

673
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,919
Speaker 1: I get, and this is a podcast that's about music,

674
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 1: so I don't have to do I just get to

675
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 1: talk or sing into a microphone for a living, and

676
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: I should be really I am thankful for that. But

677
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: it's also like the like my manager always says, like

678
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: you have to look like a million dollars but spend

679
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: like ten. And so anytime I'm wearing something designer either

680
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 1: got it at like a crazy liquidation sale or I'm

681
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: renting it, and you just have to like have this

682
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: air of wealth and it just doesn't exist. Like I mean,

683
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: I know friends who work at restaurants who probably make

684
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 1: more money than I do. At this stage of my career, I'm,

685
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: you know, a professional musician minus touring. With touring, I

686
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: was doing better. But yeah, yeah, no, I mean I

687
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 1: think that's you know, that's part of the way that

688
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 1: like we've all you know, we've all got the capitalist

689
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: brain worms a little bit, and that's a great band

690
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: name happen, but yeah, like feeling feeling the need to like, uh,

691
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:10,240
Speaker 1: exude some some type of like wealth or something like that.

692
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: I just think that, yeah, that's all sort of part

693
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: of this you know, insidious game, and I think maybe

694
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,839
Speaker 1: that's part of what people have reacted to from our

695
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: Twitter is like where you know, we don't have any

696
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 1: errors like that. We're just telling the truth. We're not wealthy.

697
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 1: You know. People tend to think like if you had

698
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: a song on the radio, you're either like multimillionaire, you know, destitute.

699
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:45,760
Speaker 1: It's like there's nothing. But yeah, I sympathize with bands who,

700
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 1: well we we can't take the Sony owned stuff off

701
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:56,240
Speaker 1: of Spotify, but we can take um our newer stuff,

702
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: which obviously doesn't get anywhere near the same streams, but

703
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 1: we do who have some mastership owner ownership in it

704
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: and a new label that's an independent label that's sympathetic

705
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: to our cause here um And even though you're not

706
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,479
Speaker 1: able to take it down, you are able to change

707
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: your banner to something that says delete Spotify, which is

708
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: pretty rock and roll. Yeah, well, well we did that,

709
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: and we also are taking down everything that's on Velocity,

710
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: which is basically our current label, and we're taking a

711
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 1: hit in our advance for that. We're taking like half

712
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: of what they were going to give us. Um. But

713
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's important to us to put our

714
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: money where our mouth is, hopefully, you know, I don't know,

715
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: just keep kind of being allowed at this um about this,

716
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: even though it's very annoying to some people, but uh,

717
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: you know, we're doing this for for all artists, like

718
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,399
Speaker 1: on the platform, fighting for fair pay. And another thing

719
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,439
Speaker 1: that's really hard about it too is, like I mean,

720
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: playlisting is such a great way to such a vital

721
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 1: way to get exposure, you know, Like I have a

722
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,240
Speaker 1: bunch of I've had a bunch of press in my career,

723
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: and like, um, the biggest thing that happened was my

724
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: debut album, which I released in twenty nine. The New

725
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: York Times said it was the number seven best album

726
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: of the year, and it's right, it's fucking awesome, right,

727
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: But like the songs, some of the songs on the project,

728
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 1: at that point, I had like twenty streams, and so

729
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: it's like without playlisting, you need to have the numbers

730
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: and you need to have the press. And so like

731
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: I had all this like clout from that ship and

732
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: like you know, Variety and MPR and like just being

733
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 1: like a hipster person, you know, like I got to

734
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 1: be cool, But I also like people weren't listening to

735
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 1: so it's it's hard, you know, and you have to

736
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 1: play the play the Spotify game when you're at my

737
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: point in my career. But like I also want to

738
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 1: actively call them out and give you guys a chance

739
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: to talk about it, because you and like talk about

740
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 1: how you are going to take it off. I mean,

741
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: like I would love to do that, and I hate

742
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: not putting my money where my mouth is, but there's

743
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,319
Speaker 1: also no money to put I get it. I get it.

744
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 1: I really do. Like a good friend of ours who's

745
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 1: also very involved in this, you know, fight for fair pay,

746
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 1: named Evan greer Um. She has an album called Spotify

747
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 1: Is Surveillance Um, and it's on Spotify because, like you know,

748
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:29,439
Speaker 1: Spotify has had the strangle hold on streaming and if

749
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: you're not participating there, you're likely losing out on some visibility.

750
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: I do think that, ah, the kind of this this

751
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 1: moment right now, just in the last week or so,

752
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: I do think there's just been a critical mass of

753
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 1: people who are who have recently become aware of the

754
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 1: degree to which Spotify is doing flagrant exploitation and that

755
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 1: it's becoming ghosh or cringe like chill for Spotify to

756
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 1: share a Spotify link to you know. So, um, that's good.

757
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 1: It feels like like another step was taken, you know,

758
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: like recently, and like honestly, like thanks Joe Rogan for

759
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: for like starting like giving because I mean anything with

760
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 1: his name and it is going to get a ton

761
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 1: of pressed. So I totally we should fucking use that

762
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 1: to our advantage, like just piggyback on his ship and

763
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 1: be like, Okay, but look at us over here, like

764
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,399
Speaker 1: we built a platform. But yeah, no, it's true. I mean,

765
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: even though I have issues with the way that Neil

766
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 1: Young has kind of gone about this and definitely definitely

767
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 1: have issues with his shilling for Amazon, like a couple

768
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: of days after yeah exactly, Um, that his leaving brought

769
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 1: on in sane amount of attention to this, which is

770
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 1: giving the artists side, you know, the material labor use

771
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 1: side of the story and opportunity to be heard and

772
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 1: people are receptive to it and kind of a shocking

773
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't think that they would be um

774
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: to the degree that they have been. Like I have

775
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: issues with with Joni Mitchell because I haven't talked about

776
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: this on the podcast, but she saws an album with

777
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: black face. She literally didn't Oh my god, all right, guys,

778
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 1: let's just go here for a second. And I like

779
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,399
Speaker 1: love Joni Mitchell's music, but I was reading this article

780
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: about how like just because you love someone and they've

781
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: become an icon now, it doesn't mean you can erase

782
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,760
Speaker 1: parts of their career. And so the kind of oh, well,

783
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan said the N word, and like I'm going

784
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 1: to pull all my music because of what he's talking about.

785
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: And it's like, okay, but as recently as you guys

786
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 1: can just you guys can look this up, like this

787
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: is a direct quote. But she was like, yeah, I

788
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: got the idea to do black face because I was

789
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: at the dentist and he said that I had the

790
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 1: teeth of a Negro male. And then I saw this

791
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: guy diddy bopping on the street and I was like, wow,

792
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: I want to do that. So I went to a

793
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,479
Speaker 1: Halloween party dressed as this black guy, this black pimp

794
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: guy is like literally like direct quotes um and people

795
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: thought I was at the wrong party. And then I

796
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: had a photo shoot next week the following week for

797
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: um an album cover, and I was really pissed at

798
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: the photographer. So I went in the other room and

799
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 1: put on black face so I could make her angry.

800
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: And it's like, oh, ma'am, that's so bad. And then

801
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 1: she said that, um she she Okay, this is the

802
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:46,720
Speaker 1: worst part of it. She said that, um, she felt

803
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: she felt a lot of empathy for negro men because

804
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: she had experienced what it felt like to be one

805
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 1: on several occasions, Like, ma'am. So it's like, we need

806
00:46:57,719 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 1: just more people to get on board with us who

807
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 1: are like not going to go suck Jeff Bezoss Dick

808
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,760
Speaker 1: and also not be like hypocrites like super wealthy boomers

809
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: who like, yeah, I mean Taylor Swift did a lot

810
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 1: for this conversation and being the first person to start

811
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 1: it and also talking about masters and empowering people to

812
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: ask for more of their masters. I mean, I just

813
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: I was fucked when I signed my record deal because

814
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 1: I wasn't in a position to negotiate because I was

815
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 1: the only way I was going to be able to

816
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 1: fund a new project and the only way I was

817
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:29,479
Speaker 1: going to be able to survive through because I wasn't

818
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 1: touring and so that was that was hard. But I mean,

819
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,839
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift is in an incredible position, and I hope

820
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:41,240
Speaker 1: that she kind of speaks back up on this because

821
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 1: she had didn't have her music on the platform for

822
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: a long time. Yeah, yeah, I know, definitely, I wouldn't

823
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: like count her out. Um, Swift, He's have gotten mad

824
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: at me for bringing bringing that up, and it's like, yeah,

825
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 1: it does, you know it. I can see how how

826
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: it does sort of suck to for people to expect

827
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: her to like swoop in and save the day or whatever. Um,

828
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: But the truth is she's incredibly powerful, you know, like

829
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: the most I mean, because you know, Michael Jackson isn't

830
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,320
Speaker 1: alive anymore. She's like probably one of the most influential

831
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 1: musicians alive, you know. And I just I really do

832
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 1: love her. But you're still allowed to love somebody and

833
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: be like, hey, I wish you'd do this. Like Swifties

834
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 1: fans on Twitter in general can be quite a bit.

835
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 1: Um speaking people who can be quite a bit on Twitter.

836
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 1: I feel like you're the anti Chris from Trapped on Twitter.

837
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 1: I don't know if any of you guys are listening

838
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 1: have seen the guy from Traps twitter account, but it

839
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:52,320
Speaker 1: is a fucking nightmare. It's like a dumpster fire. Yeah.

840
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 1: Did you ever encounter them on the road? Yeah, yeah,

841
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: we did. We had a couple couple of scenes with them. UM.

842
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 1: One interaction that I remember was we were backstage at

843
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 1: some festival I forget where it was, UM, and the

844
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 1: guy from Trapped was talking to UM, A couple of

845
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: guys from our crew, and I think there were a

846
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,839
Speaker 1: couple other people around UM that he was sort of

847
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 1: doing this monologue too, and he was telling them how

848
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 1: he was single handedly changing the way people sing. And

849
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 1: that reaction that you just had as the reaction that

850
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 1: are UH crew guys had. They started laughing, and then

851
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 1: I realized that he was being completely serious. Uh, he

852
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 1: was not joking. Is this named Chris Taylor Brown? Like

853
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 1: his name is Chris Brown? Oh wow, I don't actually know.

854
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,359
Speaker 1: I think that's funny. I think it is because it's like, God,

855
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: I mean, so sucks to be any nice guy named

856
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:03,840
Speaker 1: Chris Brown. Right. But I briefly dated the drummer from Trapped,

857
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:05,839
Speaker 1: not the not the old one, because they would be

858
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 1: like probably fifty but one of the newer ones who's

859
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: my age? And that was a nightmare in and of itself.

860
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 1: And I finally made a TikTok about it because I

861
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,399
Speaker 1: was like, this is too fucking funny. But my band

862
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 1: whenever we're on the road, like we here Headstrong everywhere,

863
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 1: and they always just like roast me, and I'm like,

864
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,879
Speaker 1: gets fair. I deserve I deserve that. But you know what,

865
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: it was a good story. Well, thanks for coming on.

866
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 1: I really really appreciate it. You guys can get their

867
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 1: new single, Revolue Show on Spotify for now and make

868
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 1: sure you follow them on Twitter at eve six. It's hilarious.

869
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: It's a ride. I remember you retweeted me like last

870
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:42,760
Speaker 1: year and followed me, and I like in my management

871
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:44,879
Speaker 1: group chat was like, guys, I made the Eves six

872
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: Twitter like I've made it period Um. Thanks for coming on,

873
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 1: and thanks guys for listening. I'm Kaylie Shore and this

874
00:50:52,840 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 1: is too much to say. I'll go to must say.

875
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: I'll tell it out of you. H