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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope

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Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it

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Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship

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Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for joining me for session to seventy of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation

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Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsors. If you're someone who

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Speaker 1: enjoys taking personality tests, you might have heard of indiograms.

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Speaker 1: If you're not familiar, indiograms or models of the human

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Speaker 1: psyche that are based around nine intertwining personality archetypes. This week,

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Speaker 1: I'm joined by Chichi Agoram, a certified indiogram teacher and

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Speaker 1: practitioner and the author of the Indiogram for Black Liberation,

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Speaker 1: to chat all about it. Our conversation explores the history

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Speaker 1: of the indiogram, differentiating between the nine personality types, and

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Speaker 1: how the indiogram can be used as a tool for

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Speaker 1: black resistance and liberation. If something resonates with you while

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Speaker 1: enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media

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Speaker 1: using the hashtag tv G in Session or join us

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Speaker 1: over in the Sister Circle to talk more in doubt

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Speaker 1: about the episode, you can join us at community that

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Here's our conversation. Well,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me today, t G.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited for this conversation.

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Speaker 1: Likewise likewise, so we are going to talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about your new book, so the Indiogram for Black Liberation,

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Speaker 1: which I'm very excited to get into. But before we

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Speaker 1: get into that, can you tell me about the history

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Speaker 1: of the indiogram, Like what is it and how is

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Speaker 1: it used. So the instagram has been around in some

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Speaker 1: form since the thirteenth century, so it's been around for

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Speaker 1: a long time, and it has roots that go back

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Speaker 1: to different wisdom traditions across the world. So there's some

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Speaker 1: routes that go back to the Sufies, a lot of

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Speaker 1: different religious groups from back in the day. But what

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Speaker 1: we call today the modern iniogram, which is like the

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Speaker 1: circle the diagram that most people see now. The beginnings

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Speaker 1: of that started in the thirteenth century and have since

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Speaker 1: then been melded, if you will, with some psychology. It

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Speaker 1: was brought to the United States back in the seventies

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Speaker 1: and the founders of the narrative indiogram, which is where

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Speaker 1: I got trained, David Daniels and Helen Palmer. David Daniels

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Speaker 1: he's no longer living, but he was a psychologist, and

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Speaker 1: so he added the element of psychology with the spiritual

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Speaker 1: tradition that really looked at people's core selves, true selves,

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Speaker 1: and then these other personality aspects that we take on

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Speaker 1: to navigate the world. And all of that combined together

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Speaker 1: now gives us those nine types that we talk about

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Speaker 1: today and used as the instagram of personality. So how

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Speaker 1: did you become interested in the indiogram to get the

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Speaker 1: further training that you did. I was in grad school

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Speaker 1: starting to be a therapist, and one of my friends

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Speaker 1: at school mentioned the instagram, and I wasn't really interested

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Speaker 1: because I felt like I had other tools that were

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Speaker 1: working well, and I didn't really feel like it made

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Speaker 1: any sense. The diagram seemed weird. I wasn't interested, but

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Speaker 1: then it kept coming back up in conversations from different

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Speaker 1: people that I did actually respect, and so I thought, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna give it a try and see what this

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Speaker 1: thing is about. And for me, it felt like somebody

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Speaker 1: finally gave language to aspects of the way that I

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Speaker 1: experienced the world or experienced myself that I had not

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Speaker 1: gotten language for before. There were many ways before I

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Speaker 1: found the Instagram that I felt like it must just

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Speaker 1: be me. I must be the lone person in the

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Speaker 1: world who has these thoughts or struggles with these things,

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Speaker 1: or sees the world this way. And one of the

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Speaker 1: most distinct feelings I remember when I came to the

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Speaker 1: Instagram for myself was Oh, it's not just me. This

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Speaker 1: is a common way of viewing the world, and I

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Speaker 1: could explore other ways of being. I don't have to

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Speaker 1: be stuck in this one point of view. So that's

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Speaker 1: what drew me in, And then after I finished grad

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Speaker 1: school began pursuing training and certification with the narrative Instagram.

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Speaker 1: I was drawn to the way they talk about the

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Speaker 1: intagram because it's very narrative based. That's very much about storytelling.

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Speaker 1: We prioritize the lived experiences of the people in the

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Speaker 1: courses and the classes. So for as much as I

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Speaker 1: know about the Instagram, and I've written a book about it,

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Speaker 1: if we were talking about what potentially your Intagram type was,

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Speaker 1: I would be relying on the stories you tell me

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Speaker 1: about yourself, about how you experience the world, about how

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Speaker 1: you respond to certain things, as a way to piece

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Speaker 1: together core motivation across time. And I love narrative. I

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Speaker 1: love stories. I think people's stories are beautiful, and I

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Speaker 1: think the way people talk about their stories offers more

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Speaker 1: information than like a multiple choice test. So I was

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Speaker 1: very drawn to that format two with the narrative. And

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Speaker 1: Graham m mmmmmmm yeah. And so talk to me more

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Speaker 1: about the book. So, you know, you called the book

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Speaker 1: India Graham for a Black Liberation, And I always think

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Speaker 1: it's really interesting how you know, we come to these

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Speaker 1: you know, like you said, this has been around since

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Speaker 1: like the thirteenth century, and so black people were likely

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Speaker 1: not a part of bringing this to the forefront, but

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Speaker 1: you have put your own spin on it and really

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Speaker 1: are talking about it in terms of black people in

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Speaker 1: the black community. Can you talk about the inspiration for

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Speaker 1: the book. The inspiration for what became the instagram of

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Speaker 1: personality came from communities of color in parts of the

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Speaker 1: world that a lot of communities in the Middle East,

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Speaker 1: for example, were part of the inspiration for this, But

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Speaker 1: to your point, as it became more familiar in the West,

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Speaker 1: as it came over here, black folks were not necessarily

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Speaker 1: a part of those conversations. What led me to write

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Speaker 1: the book was my partly my experience as I was

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Speaker 1: being trained in the narrative tradition, and then just the

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Speaker 1: conversations I was having around that I was off to

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Speaker 1: in the only or one of very few black people

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Speaker 1: in the space, and I had questions about how my

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Speaker 1: lived reality played in with some of what I was learning. So,

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Speaker 1: for example, when I first started training, there were a

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Speaker 1: lot of components of the work that we're stating that

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Speaker 1: the goal for health, the goal for being well, was

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Speaker 1: to be undefended. I think is a good word for it,

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Speaker 1: because our types are seen as things that maybe we

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Speaker 1: needed when we were kids. So we formed these personality

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Speaker 1: traits and habits when we were kids, and they offered

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Speaker 1: us help and solution at that point, but as adults today,

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Speaker 1: we don't need them as much, so we just need

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Speaker 1: to kind of like let go release them and enter

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Speaker 1: life in a more undefended state. And I kept thinking

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Speaker 1: as I would listen to those lectures, like that doesn't

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Speaker 1: work for me. That works for some people in this

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Speaker 1: society to go around undefended, but for a lot of

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Speaker 1: people that doesn't work. What is my work then, right,

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Speaker 1: what is healing and health and wellness look like? What

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Speaker 1: does that look like for somebody who still needs those

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Speaker 1: protective things. And so that's really what began my exploration

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Speaker 1: of how does power and privilege and identity play in

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Speaker 1: with in your Graham work? What does it look like

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Speaker 1: for us to identify? I talk about types as armor,

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Speaker 1: So we needed in the past these pieces of armor

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Speaker 1: to protect ourselves in the world, and for some of us,

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Speaker 1: we still need that armor. And rather than introducing shame,

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Speaker 1: because that's also kind of what I was like, an

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Speaker 1: undercurrent that I was picking up on and some of

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Speaker 1: those conversations was that if you were too identified, then

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Speaker 1: if you were using your armor too much still as

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Speaker 1: an adult, then you're not doing your work. And I

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Speaker 1: felt like that can't be true because I still need

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Speaker 1: my armor. I still need protection in the world that's

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Speaker 1: not safe for me, and that's not a thing of shame.

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Speaker 1: That is a necessity. And my work then to be

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Speaker 1: able to create space between me, my full true self

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Speaker 1: and then these protective mechanisms that I used to navigate

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Speaker 1: the world and be able to have choice when I

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Speaker 1: lean into that and when I step back from it.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. And so I'm curious, you know, as you're

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Speaker 1: talking about, like how you are kind of reimagining what

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Speaker 1: has traditionally been how the inniogram has been used, what

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Speaker 1: kind of feedback have you gotten from other inniogram practitioners,

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Speaker 1: Like has there been support for the way that you're

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Speaker 1: reimagining it or has there been criticism. I'm sure that

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Speaker 1: there's criticism somewhere. Nobody has said it to my face,

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Speaker 1: so they didn't say it. They haven't told me. It

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Speaker 1: has received a lot of support, even within the narrative tradition.

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Speaker 1: I was really nervous when I started writing the books.

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Speaker 1: I was like, I'm gonna be criticizing some of the

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Speaker 1: ways that I was taught to think about this, and

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure how they'll take it, but I think

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Speaker 1: it really worked well with the movements that have been

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Speaker 1: happening since because there was Alrea do a lot of

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Speaker 1: critiquing and shifting and changing that was happening within that culture.

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Speaker 1: So there's been a lot of support, and I have

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Speaker 1: felt really excited to see how many people are excited

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Speaker 1: about it, resonating with it, and wanting to use this

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Speaker 1: model of thinking about it, especially as it relates to

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Speaker 1: introducing equity and privilege and power into these discussions. Part

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Speaker 1: of what I wanted to highlight two with the book

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Speaker 1: was that in the United States and in a lot

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Speaker 1: of Western cultures, it's very individualistic, right, So even when

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Speaker 1: we approach healing work and wellness work, it's me centered.

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Speaker 1: And that's what I was noticing in a lot of

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Speaker 1: Instagram conversations Intagram communities is how do I become my

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Speaker 1: best self? What do I need to do to be

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Speaker 1: a shinier version of whatever type I lead with? But

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Speaker 1: I really wanted to draw our attention to how our

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Speaker 1: armor and our types impact and influenced the people around

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Speaker 1: us and the communities around us. So I might need

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Speaker 1: my armor to protect myself, but sometimes my armor can

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Speaker 1: unconsciously be weaponized against other people. Making it less safe

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Speaker 1: for them to put down their armor. And that's also

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Speaker 1: part of my responsibility if our freedom is interconnected, and

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Speaker 1: so really wanting to expand the conversation from just this

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Speaker 1: is just about you and you being the best version

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Speaker 1: of you, but to really think about how does this

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Speaker 1: impact us all? How can this help free us all?

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, I love that. So you mentioned that there

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Speaker 1: are nine different personality types that you know are classified

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Speaker 1: via the aniogram. Can you talk about those for us

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Speaker 1: and kind of break down what each of them is? Yes,

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Speaker 1: I can give you a quick overview. So there are

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Speaker 1: nine nine types, and the idea here is that one

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Speaker 1: of them is your primary type throughout the course of

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Speaker 1: your life. It's kind of like home base. So there

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Speaker 1: might be a few different types that you maybe I

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Speaker 1: feel like, Oh I could be that, or I could

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Speaker 1: be that. But our types don't change over time because

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Speaker 1: the inagram is more about core motivation unless a behavior,

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Speaker 1: so your behavior will shift and change over time, but

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Speaker 1: the core motivation, the core story, never really shifts. So

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Speaker 1: I will start with their numbered one through nine, which

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Speaker 1: is easy. So I'll start with type one. Type one

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Speaker 1: is known as the perfectionist, and this core story for

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Speaker 1: type one is that they have to be good and

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Speaker 1: do the right thing in a world where you are

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Speaker 1: punished for being bad, for making mistakes, for showing up

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Speaker 1: and doing the wrong thing. So there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: energy and effort with Type ones to live up to

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Speaker 1: their own standard of what it means to be a

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Speaker 1: good person, what it means to be perfect. For Type two's,

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Speaker 1: they're known as the givers, and the story here is

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Speaker 1: that the only way that I am valuable and therefore

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Speaker 1: loved is if I show up for people and help

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Speaker 1: other people, And so they spend a lot of their

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Speaker 1: effort and energy anticipating other people's needs, showing up for

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Speaker 1: other people, taking care of other people, in an effort

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Speaker 1: to be valuable and to be lovable. For Type threes,

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Speaker 1: they are called the performers, and the threes believe that

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Speaker 1: to be valuable and to be lovable, you have to

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Speaker 1: be seen as successful. You have to be seen as

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Speaker 1: accomplished and capable. So they spend a lot of their

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Speaker 1: energy and a lot of their time pursuing things that

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Speaker 1: they can succeed at, pursuing things that they can shine at,

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Speaker 1: in an effort to feel valuable and loved. Side note,

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Speaker 1: the US is often referred to as a three culture,

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Speaker 1: So we all kind of have this overlay that says,

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Speaker 1: no matter what field you're in, and you have to

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Speaker 1: be seen as capable and successful, and that applause is

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Speaker 1: what communicates that you have value. Then we have type four,

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Speaker 1: known as the romantic or the individualist, and for is

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Speaker 1: believe that to have value and to be loved, you

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Speaker 1: have to offer something that's unique, something that's different, something

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Speaker 1: that nobody else is bringing to the table to prove

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Speaker 1: that you have enough value to be loved and to belong.

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Speaker 1: So they tend to be creative. They tend to try

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Speaker 1: to think about new and interesting ways to present things,

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Speaker 1: all in an effort to be seen as valuable and

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Speaker 1: deserving of love. Then we have type five and fives

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Speaker 1: are known as the observers. They believe that in a

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Speaker 1: world that can be overwhelming demanding, where people ask for

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Speaker 1: a lot and take a lot but don't give enough,

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Speaker 1: they have to protect themselves from being depleted by gathering

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Speaker 1: enough knowledge to stay self sufficient. So they spend a

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Speaker 1: lot of time gathering information. Knowledge like knowledge is safety

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Speaker 1: for fives, so as a way to keep themselves safe,

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Speaker 1: and as a way to make sure that they have

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Speaker 1: what they need so that they don't have to be

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Speaker 1: dependent on other people and then have to engage with

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Speaker 1: other people's demands. Type sixes are known as the loyal skeptics.

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Speaker 1: So for sixes, the world can be a dangerous, threatening place,

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Speaker 1: and the best way to protect yourself in that scenario

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Speaker 1: is both to find something or someone or a belief

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Speaker 1: system to be loyal to as a way to find safety.

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Speaker 1: So if you think about like the pack animal mentality,

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Speaker 1: where if you're a part of the group, then you're safe,

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Speaker 1: you're not easy prey for the predator, but if you're

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Speaker 1: on your own, you're more likely to get eaten, right,

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Speaker 1: So finding something outside of self to be loyal to.

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Speaker 1: But also there's a level of skepticism because they don't

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Speaker 1: tend to trust easily, and so there's a I want

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Speaker 1: to be loyal, but are you telling the truth? Are

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Speaker 1: you who you say you are? So they might push back,

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Speaker 1: they might test. They want to make sure that the

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Speaker 1: person or the institution or the group that they're giving

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Speaker 1: their loyalty to really is trustworthy. So they're the loyal skeptics,

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Speaker 1: and this is how they believe they keep themselves safe,

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Speaker 1: and then we have type seven and sevens also believe

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Speaker 1: that the world could be a place in which there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of unnecessary suffering, and so for them, the

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Speaker 1: best way to keep themselves safe from unnecessary suffering and

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Speaker 1: pain is to plan to make sure that they are

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Speaker 1: thinking of possibilities and options, and they spend a lot

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Speaker 1: of time in the future kind of imagining what could

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Speaker 1: be as a way to protect or insulate or avoid

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Speaker 1: whatever is happening in the present that might be difficult

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Speaker 1: or painful. They're called the epicures or the optimists, so

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Speaker 1: they spend a lot of time imagining possibilities and take

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Speaker 1: on an optimistic view of the world, but to the

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Speaker 1: detriment of being present with what else might be going on.

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Speaker 1: And then we have type eight. Eights are known as

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Speaker 1: the protectors on the Instagram, and aids believe that the

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Speaker 1: world is a place where, unfortunately, people are out to

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Speaker 1: get you, and the world is a place where you're

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Speaker 1: either in power or your powerless. You either take charge

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Speaker 1: of someone else to take charge of you. And so,

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Speaker 1: because of God, they bring a lot of their energy

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Speaker 1: to being strong, to being powerful, to being in charge

295
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Speaker 1: in an effort to not be taking advantage of controlled

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Speaker 1: or left feeling powerless. So this doesn't necessarily have to

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Speaker 1: be in like physical strength necessarily, but just the sense

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Speaker 1: of I have to show up as strong and powerful

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Speaker 1: and capable in order to protect myself in a world

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Speaker 1: where I might be taking advantage of otherwise. And then

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Speaker 1: finally we have type nine, known as the mediator of

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Speaker 1: the peacemaker, and nine's believe that to have access to

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Speaker 1: worth and belonging, they have to be easy going and adaptable,

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Speaker 1: and they have to go with the flow. So they

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Speaker 1: tend to be people who avoid conflict, who don't want

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Speaker 1: to ruffle any feathers, who go with what's expected of

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Speaker 1: them just so that they do not get kicked out

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Speaker 1: of connection, just so that they are still seen as worthy.

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Speaker 1: And so they tend to diminish what they feel, what

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Speaker 1: they need, what they want in favor of responding to

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Speaker 1: what the people around them need from them. So that's

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Speaker 1: all of them. In the shortest, quickest overview, I could

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Speaker 1: give beautiful, beautiful examples. I appreciate you going through that

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Speaker 1: both quickly and very early. I think that that be great.

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Speaker 1: So as you were talking, I'm thinking about like all

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Speaker 1: of the different cultures and like different you know, just

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Speaker 1: even situations that I think we've seen in the past

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Speaker 1: couple of years. They feel like, oh, this is what

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Speaker 1: it feels like you're speaking to here. So I would

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Speaker 1: love a little bit more in background around like how

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Speaker 1: these personality types then developed. So is this something Is

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Speaker 1: this a theory kind of based in like childhood experiences

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Speaker 1: develop and that's what leads us to our personality stalling

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Speaker 1: because you said it doesn't change, right, So we're kind

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Speaker 1: of always driven by whatever our core personality. Styley is

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Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about like the theory behind it.

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Speaker 1: So they're actually multiple different theories about this in particular,

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Speaker 1: but generally, what I have come to believe is that, yes,

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Speaker 1: the personality type the core story doesn't change over time

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Speaker 1: and often is formed and shaped in childhood in response

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Speaker 1: to what we experience. So let's use type three as

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Speaker 1: an example. Helen Palmer, one of the founders of the

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Speaker 1: narrative Instagram, talks about how when we first come into

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Speaker 1: the world, we're in this untouched state, and I think

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Speaker 1: of it as like we have access to this part

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Speaker 1: of ourselves that knows without a doubt that I am

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Speaker 1: deserving of love without effort, that I am deserving of safety,

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Speaker 1: of belonging, of connection. But using the type three the

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Speaker 1: performer as an example, let's say maybe at four or

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Speaker 1: five or whenever you start going to school, you notice

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00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:32,040
Speaker 1: that your parents seem most excited and most proud of

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00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,439
Speaker 1: you when you come back with the best grades in

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Speaker 1: the class, or when you scored the winning goal at soccer,

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Speaker 1: or you know, like these things where that's when you

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Speaker 1: get attention, that's when you get validation, that's when you

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Speaker 1: feel really loved. And then it starts to wire that

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00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,280
Speaker 1: story in right that this is what I have to

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Speaker 1: do to get attention and love and validation. And if

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Speaker 1: that continues, if that pattern continues, then it kind of

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Speaker 1: becomes hardwired as a survival strategy. And then that's what

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00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:05,240
Speaker 1: it carries through adulthood of this underlying story of if

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Speaker 1: I'm just being if I'm just being still and not

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Speaker 1: doing anything, that's not enough for love, that's not enough

354
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Speaker 1: to be seen as valuable and worthy of attention. I

355
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,359
Speaker 1: have to do something and I have to shine, I

356
00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:18,520
Speaker 1: have to be the best at it in order to

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Speaker 1: be seen. And so it's formed in childhood and it's

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Speaker 1: that core story that doesn't change, but again, the behavior

359
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,520
Speaker 1: around it might change, right The activities you're pursuing might change,

360
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Speaker 1: and some of it might soften. Over time, you might

361
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,480
Speaker 1: not be as obvious as when you were a teenager.

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Speaker 1: We often say that you can see for most people,

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Speaker 1: not everybody, but you can see most clearly in the

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00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 1: like teenage years, like seventeen through twenty one, you can

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00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:48,040
Speaker 1: see the type structure most clearly because usually for most people,

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Speaker 1: after you've lived a little, done some work, gone to therapy,

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Speaker 1: some of the behaviors might soften. And so I often

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Speaker 1: hear people say, oh, well, this type sounds true of

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Speaker 1: me when I was younger, but maybe not so much

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00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,600
Speaker 1: right now. And I would say, go with that one

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00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 1: that sounds true of you when you were younger, because

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Speaker 1: it's probably still true. But our types get sneaky the

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Speaker 1: more work we do. So my question that I love

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Speaker 1: to ask is how is it showing up today? You know?

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Speaker 1: And what part of my life is it showing up?

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Speaker 1: As opposed to Oh I used to do that, but

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Speaker 1: I don't do it anymore. Mm hmmm. More from my

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Speaker 1: conversation with Chichi after the break. So tell me how

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Speaker 1: any Agraham compares to other kind of like popular personality,

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Speaker 1: So like the n B T I I think is

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Speaker 1: probably the most most popular one. Tell me how this

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00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,960
Speaker 1: compares to it? That is the most popular one. And

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00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,399
Speaker 1: the biggest difference with the m B t I and

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Speaker 1: the instagram is that the m B t I focuses

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Speaker 1: on behavior, so like whether you're introverted or extra he

386
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 1: did those sorts of things, whether you like structure. But

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00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 1: the instagram focuses on core motivation, which is not easily

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Speaker 1: observed from the outside, which is why a lot of

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Speaker 1: this work is about self observation. It's why I don't

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00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 1: tell people like what type that they lead with or

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00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 1: who they are, because really the work is founded upon

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00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 1: an ability to observe yourself, to notice what are the patterns,

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Speaker 1: how am I showing up in this moment? So I

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00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 1: would say that's the biggest difference is core motivation as

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Speaker 1: opposed to behavior. And by that also I will say

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00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,640
Speaker 1: that you and I could have very different core motivations

397
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 1: but show up in the world in the same behavioral way,

398
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 1: and so from the outside people might be like, oh,

399
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,399
Speaker 1: they're probably the same innogram type, but you might be

400
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 1: approaching whatever it is you're doing for completely different motivation

401
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 1: than I am approaching it. And that's why the work

402
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 1: of Black paying attention to what's the motivation behind the

403
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 1: way that I show up, behind this request I'm making,

404
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: behind this activity I'm choosing to do. I would say

405
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 1: that that's the biggest difference. And how do we find

406
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 1: out our any Agraham type? So is there like an

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00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 1: online test that you take or is this done with

408
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,879
Speaker 1: a practitioner? How do you find out your type? My

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00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: favorite way is when it's done with a practitioner. And

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00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 1: the narrative we do typing interviews, so it's a conversation

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00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,199
Speaker 1: about forty five minutes long, and like I asked a

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00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 1: series of questions, things like just open ended questions, so

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00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 1: things like what does success mean to you? What's your

414
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,679
Speaker 1: relationship with anger? Like how do you make decisions? And

415
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 1: I'm listening for common threads of core motivation throughout your

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00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 1: answers as you talk about yourself and give me examples

417
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,400
Speaker 1: and then reflect back and say this is what I heard.

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00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 1: It could be either this or this. We always give

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00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 1: you options because again it's about self observation to kind

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00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 1: of going home and holding those options and seeing what

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00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 1: fits best. There's also a test on the narrative any

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00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 1: Gram website that you can take. It's reading through descriptions

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00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 1: like short paragraph descriptions of all the nine types and

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00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 1: ranking your top three and then doing a little further

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00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 1: exploration of those three and again observing to see which

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00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: one feels most true of you over time. M M.

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00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: It seems like I've seen more people recently talk about

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00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: like their indiogram type, whereas before it was like, Oh,

429
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: I'm an E, n F, P or you know. So

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00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 1: it definitely feels like the indiogram is the new thing

431
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 1: that's excited about. It's having a moment. And I want

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00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 1: to hear you talk a little bit about like why

433
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: we are so drawn to things like this, right, So,

434
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: people love it feels like like to figure out their type.

435
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,159
Speaker 1: So can you talk about why personality tests like this

436
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: are so popular? You know? I feel like this is

437
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 1: actually a great question to highlight the difference in core motivation,

438
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: because I feel like that answer is probably different for

439
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 1: each person, right, Like, I I love personality tests and

440
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: things like this because it helps me understand myself better

441
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: and then it helps me communicate about myself better, so

442
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: that other people will understand me better. Right, So my

443
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 1: motivation is to feel seen and understood, and part of

444
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 1: the way I do that is to develop good language

445
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: around myself and how I work. I know for some

446
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: other people it's it's interesting and appealing because it can

447
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 1: create like predictable boxes that you can put other people in.

448
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: So it's like, all right, if I know this person

449
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: is the type of this, then I know X, y

450
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 1: Z about them, so I know what to expect and

451
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 1: I know how to engage with them, and that maybe

452
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: gives you a sense of safety or control. I think

453
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: that there are various reasons that people approach it, but

454
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: I do think in general it helps us. The more language,

455
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 1: the more understanding that we have about why we do

456
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,120
Speaker 1: what we do, and about who we are. I think

457
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: that kind of self awareness is always a good thing.

458
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 1: It helps us show up in more grounded ways and

459
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: a more real ways in our conversations and in our communities.

460
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: So in that way, I think it's it's a great thing.

461
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: M I think the caution is to not use it

462
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: as a way to put people in boxes. That's what

463
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 1: I see most often, and that's not how you're supposed

464
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: to use the Iniagram. It's not about putting people in boxes.

465
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 1: It's about identifying the stories or the boxes that we've

466
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: already kind of been locked in for so long subconsciously

467
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 1: and exploring paths out of that, exploring what else could

468
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: be true in addition to our original stories. Yeah, And

469
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: I think the caution to what I think I see

470
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: most often is people then putting limits on themselves because

471
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: of whatever they feel their type is right. So I'm

472
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 1: a two and so that means I can't change this behavior.

473
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: This is kind of just who I am. I often

474
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 1: see there too, and I think that that's something to

475
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: be aware of. Absolutely, your Intagram type is not an

476
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: excuse for not doing your work. It's not like this

477
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: is just my type. So I guess this is as

478
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 1: far as I can go, or this is what I

479
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: always do. The invitation is to notice that, and then

480
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: in that space that you've created, what else would you

481
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: like to try? Is this story actually true? I have

482
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: a couple of cohorts of black women where we're using

483
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: the Instagram to explore our armor and like the self

484
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: beneath the armor, And this is one of the questions

485
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: that I repeatedly use both of my life that was

486
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 1: working with other people. Is is this my story or

487
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 1: is this reality? Is this just a story of me

488
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 1: being a two or is this reality in reality? Does

489
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 1: this person need my help or is this my story

490
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: that I have to be helpful otherwise you won't love me.

491
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: And then being curious about that allows us to access

492
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 1: what's really happening, what's really true, and then we have

493
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 1: the option to move forward in a grounded way as

494
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: opposed to being limited to just the singular story. Well,

495
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 1: what a beautiful sega, because as you were reading the types,

496
00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: so the first three I'm thinking like, oh, this is

497
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: a lot of black women, right, so this perfectionist given

498
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: then the performance was three right, I'm thinking this is

499
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: a lot of how we show up. And so you're

500
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 1: earlier coming around like how it isn't always safe for

501
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 1: us to give up that armor, right, you know, so

502
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 1: we already know the discrepancies and how we are disproportionately

503
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 1: impacted in workplaces and things. You know. So a lot

504
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: of that I think is drilled into us as a

505
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 1: survival tactic. So I'd love to hear more about like

506
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: how the in your Graham can be helpful for black

507
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: women to hear more about like how you're using it

508
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: with black women. Yeah, that there's so much of that that,

509
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: you know, I agree with what you said. That's part

510
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: of the survival strategy for a lot of black women.

511
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: I think women in general are socialized in our culture

512
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: to think that the type two is the right way

513
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: to be a woman. Right, so you have to kind

514
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: of be a martyr. Make sure everyone else's needs are

515
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: met before you attend to yourself, never really ask for

516
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: too much, make sure you're always helping and giving and caretaking.

517
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: But I think that when I think of the instagram

518
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: types as armor, I think of like your primary one

519
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: is like the first layer of armor. Then I think

520
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: of all of these other elements like culture, racial identity,

521
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: maybe even experiences with trauma that create additional layers of

522
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: armor that we carry. And I think for Black women

523
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: in particular, the additional layers of armor are a lot.

524
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: They are heavy in addition to your primary type. So

525
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: I often find that Type eight actually is one is

526
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: one where a lot of Black women are mistyped because

527
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: there's this expectation in our culture that you show up

528
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: as strong, that you show up as being able to

529
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: handle anything to some degree, untouched by the difficulty and

530
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: the suffering around you, just like that energy of like

531
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: I can power through anything. Right? What was Type it again?

532
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: Type it is the protector protector, got it? And it's

533
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: are very protective of the people around them that love

534
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: you know, whoever is within their tribe, their circle. And

535
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: so that part can also feel very familiar as an

536
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: additional layer of armor. And isn't it true for a

537
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: lot of black women in this society that in a

538
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: lot of spaces, if you don't show up in that way,

539
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: there is actually an attempt to overpower, There is actually

540
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: an attempt to take advantage of right. So the story

541
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: is born from reality. It's not just like I'm just

542
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: imagining that the world is a place where people act

543
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: like this. Now, it's born from real experience. So that's

544
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: an additional layer of armor, right. I think of the

545
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: Type six also as an additional layer of armor, I

546
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: think for black folks. But the Type six is a

547
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: loyal skeptic. And one of the primary characteristics of this

548
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: type is I call it threat forecasting. So constantly you

549
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: know a few steps ahead, thinking through what could go wrong?

550
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: What are the places where I need to be prepared

551
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: in case something goes wrong. Right, So sixes tend to

552
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 1: have everything with them that they might need in case

553
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: something goes wrong. And I even think about just like

554
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: the conversations that black parents have to have with their

555
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: kids so young about how to act when you are

556
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: around a police officer. Right, it's like all of the

557
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: threat forecasting. I know that there's danger out there, so

558
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: I'm thinking through all the things that could go wrong

559
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: and trying to prepare myself for that and carrying that

560
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: as an additional layer of armor. So that's like the two.

561
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: That's the six. And then my theory around black culture,

562
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: particularly in the US, is that it's a lot of sevenness.

563
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: Seventh are the optimists or the epicures where it feels

564
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: like the pain and the suffering and the limitation is

565
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: just so much that I will drown if I actually

566
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: stay present with this, Like it's too much and it

567
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: will consume me. And so I reach for things that

568
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: feel fun. I reach for laughter as a way to

569
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: kind of escape. Right, So we turn up we have

570
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: means like there's nothing funnier than black Twitter, nothing at all.

571
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: But like we use humor and we use lightness and

572
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: dance and all these things are wonderful coping skills. But

573
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 1: in the story of the Seven, it's binary. It's either

574
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: I'm laughing and I'm focused on what's possible and optimism,

575
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: or I drown. There's no in between right where we

576
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: can actually pause and hold both things, you know, be

577
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: present with some of the grief and allow ourselves to

578
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: feel joy. So in many ways, I think that all

579
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,479
Speaker 1: of these can be additional layers of armor. And with

580
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: black women, you know, we know that often Black women

581
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: are at the forefront of fighting for freedom and liberation

582
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: for themselves and by that for everybody else. And so

583
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: often I think with our Instagram types, we tend to

584
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: confuse the fullness of who we are, the fullness of

585
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: our identity, with just this one singular story. So if

586
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: over time I come to really believe that I have

587
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: to always show up as straw, or have to always

588
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: show up as caring, or I have to always show

589
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: up as optimistic, I lose access to the rest of

590
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: who I am because I become so overly identified with

591
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: this singular story. And I think we can't disengage from

592
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: the fight for a freer world. But I also believe

593
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 1: that the Instagram can allow us to access more of

594
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: the fullness of our humanity even as we engage in

595
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: the rest of the world that is still not equitable

596
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: and it's still not just so we still need the armor.

597
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: But it's really about creating space so that I know

598
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: that I have access to cheat che the rest of

599
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: myself who can engage in playfulness and curiosity and rest

600
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: and ease even while the world is still a raging

601
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: dumpster fire. That's that's the invitation I see her black women,

602
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: because I think so often we get so consumed with

603
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: the fight that we forget that we are more than

604
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: just the It's like, what is the thing you're fighting for?

605
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: How can you experience some of that ease and liberation

606
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: and freedom and joy and play in your body today?

607
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: And in order to be able to do that, we

608
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 1: have to create space between the armor and the rest

609
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 1: of who we are. M M. So the title of

610
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,399
Speaker 1: your book feels like a very bold proclamation, right, So

611
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: tell me more about like how you think the indiogram

612
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 1: can be used for black liberation. Yeah, I mean a

613
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 1: lot of it is just that last piece I was

614
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: talking about of really being able to create. I think

615
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: there's so much power in the space. I think the

616
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: space is where magic happens, and I think the spaces

617
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: where we can practice returning to ourselves. And so I

618
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: think that because we live in a world where our

619
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,439
Speaker 1: armor is still very necessary, the work isn't to set

620
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: it down. The work isn't too to go back to

621
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: the beginning of when I was learning about it. The

622
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: work isn't to be undefended. That's ridiculous in the world

623
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 1: that we living. So I really see the connections with

624
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,479
Speaker 1: Black Liberation and the Instagram as being able to create

625
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: that space so that we don't get maybe burnt out

626
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 1: as easily, so that we don't lose access to our

627
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: full selves, so that we don't miss out on the

628
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: opportunity to fully experience some of what it is that

629
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: we are fighting for today, so that it's not just

630
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: like this far off thing like when these things happen

631
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: then I will be able to access, But it's like,

632
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 1: how do we make space to access those things today?

633
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: In the work that I have been doing with black

634
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: women around this, For a lot of people, it's very

635
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: hard to answer the question when do you feel most free?

636
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: What does ease look like or feel like or sound

637
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 1: like for you? And it's like, oh, I don't know.

638
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 1: I don't know if I've ever felt that. I don't

639
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: know the last time I felt that. And that is

640
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: what I think the intagram can help us with. It

641
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: is to bring awareness to you these mental and emotional

642
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 1: and somatic patterns that we have that keep us insulated

643
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: or um separated from our fullest selves and not with shame,

644
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: because we know that those patterns have been helpful and

645
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: can still be helpful in some ways. But to allow

646
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: us to have the freedom to choose, I can practice

647
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 1: being in my body enough to say in this conversation

648
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 1: with Dr Joy, I don't need to be defended, so

649
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 1: I can put my armor down and allow myself to

650
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: experience the ease of a good conversation without anticipating danger

651
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: or feeling like I have to perform or any of

652
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 1: those things. But I know that in certain other spaces

653
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,959
Speaker 1: I might need that armor, and that's okay to put

654
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 1: that back up, right, But if I don't have space

655
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 1: to set it down, I also don't get to experience

656
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: the fullness of maybe the care that's available for me

657
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: from other people, the love, the assurance, the sense of community,

658
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: Like all of these beautiful things that are armor. The

659
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 1: armor is there too theoretically keep out the bad stuff,

660
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: but it also keeps out some of the good stuff.

661
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: Right if we use the two as an example, If

662
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: the armor is there to keep out this feeling of

663
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: being rejected because I'm not valuable enough for I'm not

664
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: doing enough to help people, the armor also keeps out

665
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 1: the experience of being held and taken care of because

666
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 1: you're so committed to not having needs or to not

667
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 1: letting people know that you have needs so that you

668
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,720
Speaker 1: can keep showing up with them. But then you're feeling

669
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: exhausted and you're feeling resentful because no one's showing up

670
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,359
Speaker 1: for you. But the armor is the thing in between, right,

671
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: It's like, there might be people out there who do

672
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: want to show up for you, but you have to

673
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: put down your armor to be able to experience that.

674
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: So it's that creating space that really helps us, as

675
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: well as being mindful and conscious of when can I

676
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: put this down and when do I need to hold

677
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,399
Speaker 1: it back up, Which space is safe, which relationship is safe,

678
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 1: and which one is not, as opposed to the binary

679
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: of everything is unsafe, for all of these bad things

680
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 1: will happen if I put down my armor. There's a

681
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: little bit of in the moment curiosity that allows us

682
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: to act with consciousness. M more from my conversation with

683
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: Chichi after the break. So I love that you and

684
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: it sounds like you combine this like with your therapy practice, right,

685
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: And so I'd love to hear about what this looks

686
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: like in therapy because it feels like it is a

687
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 1: very natural fit I think for black people and black

688
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 1: women specifically, because I think we engage the world often

689
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: in storytelling. Right. It also feels like the typing of

690
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: the personality types lends itself to kind of at first

691
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 1: talking about something outside of you to get to the

692
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,320
Speaker 1: inner work. Right. So there's a little bit of distance

693
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 1: that I think sometimes makes it feel a little bit

694
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: more emotionally save. So can you talk about how you

695
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: use this in therapy or how somebody might use this

696
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: with the therapist? So you talked about finding out your

697
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: type as a part of like a narrative interviewing kind

698
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: of thing, and once you know your type, then how

699
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: would you use it in therapy? Yeah, So I'm not

700
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 1: practicing currently, but when I was working with people, I

701
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 1: find that it's really helpful too. When I think of

702
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: working as a therapist, I think of listening to what

703
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: people are not saying. And I think the instagram is

704
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,439
Speaker 1: such a great tool for that specific thing because it's

705
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: so subconscious that we often don't recognize, oh the armors up,

706
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: Oh I'm doing the thing or I'm performing. But when

707
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: you're able to see that in the other person, and

708
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 1: then you know what the core story is there, you

709
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 1: know what the core fear is and the core motivation,

710
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,799
Speaker 1: it allows you to speak to that part with gentleness

711
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: and with kindness. So each of the nine types has

712
00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 1: a core fear that motivates this story that they have. Right,

713
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 1: I've been using the two as the example, so I'll

714
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: just stick with that. The core fear there is rejection

715
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 1: that if you don't see me as indispensable and the

716
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 1: most helpful person in your life, you're gonna get rid

717
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: of me. You're gonna throw me out and discard me

718
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,959
Speaker 1: and find somebody else who meets your needs better. Right. So,

719
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: if I'm listening to someone who identifies as a to

720
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: talk about like all the ways they're showing up for

721
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: the people in their community, either with like excitement or

722
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: with like some exhaustion, I might then be curious and ask,

723
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 1: is there any part of you that's afraid that if

724
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 1: you didn't do all these things for this person or

725
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: for this group of people, that they wouldn't need you

726
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: anymore and they wouldn't want to be in relationship with

727
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 1: you anymore. So we can get to the core piece,

728
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 1: I think faster because we're conscious of it. We've named it,

729
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 1: and it's not just like, oh, she's helping or they're

730
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 1: just natural givers, Like that's true. And where is the

731
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,360
Speaker 1: core fear showing up right now? How can we be

732
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: present with that fear of rejection? How can we learn

733
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 1: to soothe it? Then we can tie that to inner

734
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 1: child work. Where did this come from? What were the

735
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: early experiences of this? How can we go back and

736
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 1: honor the experiences and tooth as a way to lessen

737
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: the hold of the fear? Doesn't go away, But now

738
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 1: I know what it is and I can name it,

739
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: So I think that that's one of the most helpful

740
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: ways that it can be used in therapy. And then

741
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 1: also just kind of bringing awareness, like naming out loud

742
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: those patterns and habits that otherwise are just autopilot, being

743
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 1: able to be curious about it, having someone ask questions

744
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: about it so that you can begin to notice and

745
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 1: observe yourself in that way. I think it's helpful as well.

746
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: There are many other ways, but that's what comes up first. Yeah,

747
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: And so the way that you have laid out the typing,

748
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like there is a hierarchy, right, Like,

749
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: it's just different. It's not like type one is ideal

750
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 1: and we don't want to be a nine, right Like,

751
00:41:57,719 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: they are just different. So so the goal is not

752
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: to like move between types, and you've already said that

753
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: that's not possible anyway. So when you refer to the

754
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 1: work that people need to do, it sounds like it

755
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: is about recognizing, like what your pattern is, and like

756
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 1: what maybe this core fear and then just kind of

757
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 1: figuring out like how it shows up and how it

758
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 1: may not be something that you want, and how do

759
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 1: you kind of minimize some of that and what else

760
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 1: is true outside of that core story? Right? I lead

761
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: a type for the romantic or the individualists, and the

762
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: core fear here is abandonment. Right If I don't stand

763
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 1: out in some way that causes you to think, Okay,

764
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: she has something to say or she has something interesting

765
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 1: to offer, then you will leave me right and go

766
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 1: find something more interesting. It's very similar to the two,

767
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: but we go about it right. So this is the

768
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 1: core motivation piece, right. Both of these types don't want

769
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: to feel like they're not enough and that you're going

770
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: to go out there and find somebody else. But the

771
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: two tries to minimize the possibility of that happening by

772
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,879
Speaker 1: being super helped, full and generous, and the four tries

773
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: to minimize the possibility of that happening by offering something

774
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: unique and authentic and creative. But in addition to naming

775
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: my core fear and understanding my patterns and my habits,

776
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 1: the part of me that's able to observe those patterns

777
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 1: in action is not as identified with them, right, So

778
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 1: my inner observer can allow for more space, And then

779
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 1: within that space, I get to be curious about what

780
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 1: else is true about me. If I don't have to

781
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: be exceptional and unique in this moment, who would I

782
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: be free to be? What do I actually want to do?

783
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 1: If I don't have to be seen as helpful all

784
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 1: of the time, who would I be free to be?

785
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: If I don't have to be seen as strong all

786
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: the time? Who would I be free to be? And

787
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: it allows for a more expansiveness where are types are

788
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 1: more about contraction. We contract into these singular stories of

789
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 1: I must be this way in order to be okay,

790
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 1: and doing the work allows for more expansion to say,

791
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: sometimes I need to be this way to be okay?

792
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 1: But what else is true? Who else am I free

793
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 1: to be? If I expand beyond this one story? And so,

794
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: how have you seen people kind of change or expand

795
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: since that's a great word that you kind of keep

796
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 1: using by using the angiograham in their lives, I have

797
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 1: seen people get more access to parts of themselves that

798
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 1: maybe they forgot about that they haven't allowed themselves to

799
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,320
Speaker 1: be present with. When I was doing individual work, I

800
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: had a lot of people I worked with who were

801
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 1: Type eight. So the protectors and getting to watch them

802
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 1: become more in contact, have more access to the softer

803
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 1: parts of themselves, the more vulnerable parts of themselves that

804
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 1: they usually avoid, and supporting them in learning to be

805
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 1: with the discomforts long enough so that they can continue

806
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 1: to build their relationship with that soft, vulnerable side was

807
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,240
Speaker 1: always such a beautiful thing, because then it's like watching

808
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,280
Speaker 1: a person realized Oh, I can be this thing about

809
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 1: myself I've been trying and avoid. I can be that

810
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: thing and still be okay. I can be soft and

811
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: vulnerable and not completely dissolve. Right. I can be boring

812
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: and inadequate and still be deserving of love. I can

813
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: speak up and say this is what I need and

814
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: engage in conflict and not be discarded. And so really,

815
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 1: watching people step into and own those parts of themselves

816
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: that their types have told them that they have to

817
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: avoid in order to keep up with the one story

818
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 1: has been a really beautiful, rewarding part of watching people expand.

819
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 1: It's like really taking ownership over all of who we are,

820
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: rather than just the parts that we think will make

821
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: us more worthy or deserving of love or safe. Mm hmmm.

822
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 1: Are you aware of any research that has been done

823
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 1: that talks about, like how we fall into personality types

824
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 1: based on race, our culture and know we anecdotally talked

825
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 1: about Oh, this sounds a lot like a lot of

826
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,320
Speaker 1: black women. But are you aware of any like studies?

827
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 1: There are things that have been done that talk about

828
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 1: like us falling into certain personality styles. I am not

829
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 1: This answer could be wrong, but I don't think that

830
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 1: it exists, and it's something that I have been in

831
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,720
Speaker 1: conversation with some other black indogram teachers and Intagram teachers

832
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: of color who we want to explore this Basically, we

833
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: want to have more definitive, more than just anecdotal stories

834
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: around it. But what that looks like for black folks,

835
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 1: But as of now, I don't think that exists. If

836
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, I I hope I'm wrong. I mean, when

837
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 1: you've written the book, so surely this would have come

838
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,399
Speaker 1: up in your preparation for the book. Yeah, it sounds

839
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 1: like there are different ways to kind of get your indiogram.

840
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,280
Speaker 1: So you've talked about kind of having a more narrative approach,

841
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 1: but I imagine that there are other ways to kind

842
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 1: of get your type, so that probably is a limitation also,

843
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 1: and that there are different ways to kind of identify

844
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:56,439
Speaker 1: what your indiogram type is. Yeah. The most popular one

845
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 1: online is called the Ready R H E T I,

846
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 1: and it's a series of questions that you answer and

847
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 1: then it kind of gives you at the end what

848
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: your primary type might be and then some options. I

849
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 1: think that what in either direction, my encouragement to people

850
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 1: is to not take whatever the test says. Or whatever

851
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: a practitioner says immediately as true of you. You still

852
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 1: have to practice self observation. So even if the test

853
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: comes back and says you know your type six, sit

854
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,800
Speaker 1: with that. Explore it, think through is this actually true

855
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 1: of me? Over time? What questions do I have about

856
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 1: this type? Let me look at the other types and

857
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 1: see if that's also true. So that's really the heart

858
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: of what we encourage with the narrative. I've met and

859
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: worked with a lot of people who will say, oh, yeah,

860
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 1: I took the test and it said I was a seven,

861
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 1: so I just went with it. It's like, well, the

862
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: actual growth and work happens when you practice self observation.

863
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 1: So it's not about what the if the test says

864
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,320
Speaker 1: your seven, it's have you noticed in your regular life

865
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 1: that you are constantly planning for the future. Have you

866
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 1: noticed that you have difficulty being with uncomfortable feeling? What

867
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 1: are you noticing about your actual lived experience and doesn't

868
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: match up with what the test said? And if it doesn't,

869
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 1: explore other options? Got it? So are there other resources

870
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 1: that you would suggest for anybody who wants to learn

871
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 1: more besides your beautiful book? Are there other places that

872
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: people can check to kind of learn more about inniograms. Yeah,

873
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: you can read about the types more in depth and

874
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 1: even like the types in relationship and those sorts of

875
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 1: things on either Narrative Instagram website, Narrative Instagram dot org

876
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 1: or the Intagram Institute dot com. Those are like the

877
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: two primary Instagram programs in the US. I would recommend

878
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 1: either of those in terms of language. There are also

879
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 1: other books that I think do a good job of

880
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:56,240
Speaker 1: talking about the Instagram. One of them is The Essential Instagram.

881
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: It's a little tiny yellow book. It also has the

882
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 1: narrative is typing tests in it as well, where you

883
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,800
Speaker 1: read through the paragraphs and then it'll give you information

884
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 1: about look alike types. So there are some types that

885
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: look a lot alike, so give you some ways to

886
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 1: identify if you connect with like two and nine. This

887
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 1: is what to look for to help you make the

888
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 1: difference between which one is your primary And for the

889
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 1: people who like to go in depth, there is the

890
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 1: Complete Intogram by Beatrice chest Net, which talks about our subtypes,

891
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 1: which is also really helpful information, but definitely too much

892
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: information at the beginning. So if you are just getting

893
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 1: involved with Instagram, don't jump into subtypes yet, but I

894
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 1: think the complete Instagram is a great resource for really

895
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: getting to understand the twenty seven subtypes and noticing how

896
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: that impacts where your energy goes on a day to

897
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 1: day basis. There's so many other books, those are the

898
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: ones that come to mind first. My learning style is

899
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: a lot more around like conversations or workshops or things

900
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 1: like that. I love to read, but I also find that,

901
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: for example, with the narrative, we teach through panels, so

902
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,400
Speaker 1: I am not the only one talking about what this

903
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: type looks like. We have a panel of people who

904
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: identify as this type and they get to share two

905
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 1: from their experience. And I think that's such a powerful

906
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:16,399
Speaker 1: way to learn because you're getting to understand how this

907
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 1: can show up differently in different bodies with different forms

908
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: of identity. So getting in a workshop learning with people,

909
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: I think is also great. Other people can hold up

910
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:28,839
Speaker 1: a mirror to things that you might have a hard

911
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 1: time seeing alone. Mm hmm. Indeed, indeed, we'll tell us

912
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 1: where we can stay connected with U T T. What

913
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 1: is your website as well as any social media channels

914
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 1: you'd like to share? Yeah, my website is cheech dot com.

915
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 1: It's probably the best place to keep in contact with me.

916
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,280
Speaker 1: You can find my email on their information about workshops

917
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,800
Speaker 1: and things like that, and then on Instagram. I am

918
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 1: at the angiogram for Black Liberation Perfect. We'll be sure

919
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:57,359
Speaker 1: to include all of that in the show notes. Thank

920
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 1: you so much for sharing with us today, t T.

921
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. I'm so

922
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 1: glad she she was able to share her expertise with

923
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,879
Speaker 1: us today. To learn more about her or to grab

924
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,359
Speaker 1: a copy of her book, visit the show notes at

925
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session to seventy

926
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: and be sure to text two of your girls right

927
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 1: now and tell them to check out the episode as well.

928
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check

929
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,799
Speaker 1: out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot

930
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 1: com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging

931
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: into this topic or just be in community with other sisters,

932
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 1: come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.

933
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 1: It's our cozy corner of the Internet design just for

934
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 1: black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy

935
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 1: for Black Girls dot com. This episode was produced by

936
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 1: Freda Lucas, Alice Ellis, and Gabby Gladney, and editing was

937
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 1: done by Nis and Bradford. Thank you all so much

938
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: for joining me again this week. I look forward to

939
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.

940
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: The best pet will break Pooper Wood