WEBVTT - Spitting Images: Immortal Technique 0:00:01.280 --> 0:00:04.240 You're listening to Waiting on Reparations the production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:12.880 Heart Radio. Yeah, it's waiting on reparations and we're back 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:14.920 in effect. We had to kick it off this way. 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:17.479 In case you askeds forget wrappers. The flags try to 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:20.560 clash with the best package of fresh. They can't keep up, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:22.799 so they're asking the ref Now, I'll put you on 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:25.000 in case you didn't follow it on the show, we 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:27.720 bridged the gap between hip hop and politics. Acknowledge it. 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:29.880 If you pass the lesson, then we give you all 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:33.400 a scholarship war university. But you don't need no hollo tips. 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:35.519 The prop spit fell on the ground. That's when the 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:37.720 peace was born, trying to tell the whole thing down. 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:40.720 Suck your police reform, you got hot takes. I'll start 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:43.040 to get your ratio to bait me bro dope and 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:48.199 I heart my reparations. Yo. Uh it's like that. Yeah, 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:51.600 it's like this, and like that, waiting on reparations doesn't 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:54.560 matter of fact. This is linga franca, dope knife. They 0:00:54.600 --> 0:01:06.880 call me mac why, Hey, yo's good. We're back. Lots 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:10.640 is good. This dope knife lingua franca and we are 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:22.200 waiting on reparations. Delayed no further. It is. I'm super 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:24.320 excited for some of the stuff we got coming up. 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:28.919 Got some some some dope interviews with some dope people 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:32.560 who got some interesting new topics and angles that we're 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:35.959 gonna be approaching this go around. And you know, the 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:40.319 whole show was first launched during the beginning week of 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:44.880 the George Floyd Uprising last summer, and so it's oddly 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:47.840 poetic that here we are beginning our second season of 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:50.880 the show as things have come full circle with the 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:58.040 Derek Chauvin verdict having been verticized. I was just about 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:01.279 to ask if anything happened while we were gone, anything anything, 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:06.960 nothing ever happens, Please don't kill anyone ever. What was 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:11.720 your what was your whole feelings in that verdict? Well, 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:14.880 I think that there was in general, like a clenching 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:17.320 in the jaw and like a like a like a 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:20.960 balling of the fists, like for the full hour where 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:25.840 that I learned that it was coming, um, knowing even 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:29.000 then like regardless that it didn't really I mean like 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:31.080 in the grand scheme of things, the work would go 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:34.320 on and in fact having a sense of fear that 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:39.600 like if that like a guilty verdict would then allow 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:44.280 like reformists and liberals to like say, look, the system works, 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.280 we don't need to do anything, like we're good to 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:49.440 go pack it up and and since then, you know, 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:52.239 it was reported Axios that members some members of Congress 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:58.200 have felt that um Derek Chauvin's guilty verdict um has 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:01.760 lessen the pressure on them to enact criminal justice reform, 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:05.760 which so my fears are coming true. So yeah, I 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:07.400 was gonna say, they can think that if they wanted. 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:09.919 I think the reason that that is not going to 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:14.280 happen is because the Republicans are just the right wing 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:17.560 in general feel it's it's almost like they have all 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:22.800 fully gone in on Chauvin is innocent in the aftermath 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.200 of things, which was I don't want to say shocking, 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:29.880 it's not the right word, just go with surprising. I 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:32.160 was surprised that they took that heart of a turn 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:35.240 because if you remember back during the summer, it was like, 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:37.720 you know, the Ben Shapiros of the world and the 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:41.520 Tucker Carlson's of the world, where they were using the 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:46.200 George Floyd uh incident to almost as a tool so 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:48.360 they could downplay other things, so they would be like, look, 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:51.119 we all agree that Derek Chauvin is a terrible person, 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:54.360 that George Floyd was murdered, so you know, there's more 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:56.640 to Brianna Taylor. It's not you know, they would they 0:03:56.680 --> 0:03:58.720 would use it in that way, and so I was 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:01.120 expecting them to keep going on that end, kind of 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:03.400 using this as like they're, hey, this is the one 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:06.720 the one incident that we all agreed was bad, so 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:10.040 that proves that we're not racist, or that systemic racism 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:12.440 doesn't exist because the system worked, yuta, YadA. But no, 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:16.919 it's like literally the second that the verdict was was read, 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:21.400 they were like, this is horseship desert sen. I can't 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:23.920 believe that this is the PC capital culture of them. 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:27.240 It's it's kind of nuts. It's kind of nuts. But 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:30.159 I don't know if that's the right just from a 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:34.560 political standpoint. I don't know if going to the Choban 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:38.240 was innocent is the slogan that they want to be using. Yeah, 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:40.440 I don't know. I mean I kind of hope they're right, 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:43.120 and that like the whole oh, the Wolke mob scared 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:47.159 the jury into like you know, you know, denying the 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:52.240 evidence before them. Like I mean, I like eight, I 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:56.960 very very like obsessed with and like planned a lot 0:04:56.960 --> 0:04:59.080 of seeds of hoping like the power of the people, 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:02.200 and like I know it's just one case out of 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:07.120 the thousand people that are murdered by the police every year. Um, 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:09.560 but like if millions of people rising up can like 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:13.919 bring a modicum of justice even if it's not transformational, 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:17.960 Uh good? But how do we how do you deal 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:20.640 with the volume of it? Because even now, you know, 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:23.520 we're sitting here talking about the Chauvin verdict was what 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:27.240 a week two weeks ago, and we're in the aftermath 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:31.720 two other high profile police shootings right now. We're waiting 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:34.760 new body cam footage coming out from Elizabeth Town was 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:39.160 Elizabeth Elizabe City, North Carolina. Yeah, so that one's supposed 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:41.080 to be bad. They're on a state of emergency. It's 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:44.640 like it almost never ends, you know. It's it's kind 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.520 of depressing to think about in that way, especially so 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:51.159 soon after the verdict was one for for people who 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:53.480 did take some solace in it and found it as 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:56.760 like a a small victory and an ocean of bad ship. 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:01.400 It's like the bad ship just ding. Yeah, like literally 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:05.040 maybe six or seven minutes after like I watched the 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:07.720 live stream of the Verdict reading like I learned about 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:12.080 McCay brian and uh, just a see thing with rage 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:20.000 that like the like the the casualties we will sustain 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:25.159 in this like war for like transformation, like where there's 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:27.080 so many people that are gonna die like in the 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:29.240 year to come, that's in the years that it may 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.400 take to like transforming system. So I think maybe we 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:37.360 should tackle the abolish the police or police reform or 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:40.200 something again in the future. Yeah, I definitely come back 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:44.560 around to it. We're not going to waste or any 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:47.080 more time because we have a pretty long one for 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:51.120 you guys today. We are about to have a long, 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:56.719 in depth conversation with the one and only rapper activist 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:02.720 Immortal Technique. I I'm trying real hard not to fanboy 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:08.760 the funk out right now doing a terrible job blowing 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:11.240 on you got it a bit. When it was like, yeah, 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:13.080 we're gonna talk to a border just a little bit, 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:16.200 he was like, what I'm really enjoyed about this conversation 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:20.680 is really two things. His humility, like his his willingness 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:23.200 to this like chat for He was just like, yo, yeah, 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:24.680 it was good, Like let's talk for as long as 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:27.080 you all want to talk. I'm just kicking it. And 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:35.560 also is continual, uh we framing of our conversation around 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:40.840 the contexts and conditions for the things that he does. 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:43.280 So like when we asked him about like, oh, yeah, 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:46.760 you built a fucking school in Afghanistan, instead up being like, yeah, 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:48.320 I went over there and then I met kids, we 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:50.880 played soccer, and I like, you know, ate the traditional food. 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:52.600 He was like, yeah, let me talk to you about 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:56.040 like foreign intervention in the Middle East and like it's 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:59.560 impacts and like imperialism in the military industrial complex, like 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:02.680 all is bringing it back to like these larger systems 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:05.640 that like that that like spur him to do what 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:08.600 he does. And I found that really really like inspiring 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:11.680 that Like yeah, I mean obviously from his music you 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:15.560 can tell like he thinks very systemically, but like he 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:17.080 don't know if he knows how to turn it off, 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:21.280 which is kind of fucking sick thing. I really dug is. 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:23.400 I mean, it's not that I had any reason to 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:25.760 not think that this would be the case, but it's 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:29.640 just he seems like a really really nice guy, you know, 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:34.280 like like a genuine nice, good dude. So you know, 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:36.800 without further ado, we're gonna get into that and we 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:39.320 will holler at y'all we're gonna have that interview coming 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:50.520 up for you after the junk. Y know, today we 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:56.280 are going to be talking with legendary m C Immortal Technique, Immortal, 0:08:56.320 --> 0:09:00.600 how you doing so? On this show, what we try 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:04.080 to do is bridge the gap between politics and hip 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:08.760 hop and discuss things that you know, always revolve around 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:11.320 how those two things intersect and how they affect each 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:15.000 other vice versa. And you, you know, for better or worse, 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:18.960 you're known as like the at this point, you're like 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:21.400 the political rapper, you know what I'm saying. We even 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:23.920 had a little poll on Instagram that we did when 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:26.120 we first launched the show when we were like, what 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:29.120 do y'all think of when you think of political rap 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:32.679 or political hip hop? And most people said, oh, Mortal, 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:36.240 oh Mortal, yeah, Mortal Technique. You know. So, my question 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:40.720 is what influenced you when you were coming up in 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:44.400 terms of like that specifically not necessarily your rap style 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:48.360 or your rhyme scheme style, but what MCS or music 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:50.680 did you look towards when you were writing and you 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.400 were like, oh, that's the angle that I can take 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:57.679 or that that I should take. UM well, I think 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:00.400 I had a lot of different influences coming up. One 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:03.320 of the main ones obviously was care and rest one 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:07.079 and rock Him. So I grew up listening to people 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:10.480 that were well versed in the art of lyricism, so 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:13.880 that was a major influence from day one. Um. I 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:18.120 was always a big uh. I was always a person 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:19.800 who was big on lyrics. I had a lot of 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:22.360 respect for the people that I've seen do it because 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:24.920 I knew it wasn't easy. Um. I think for me 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:28.800 as an adult looking back and at this stage in 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.600 my career when I'm out here, you know, still making 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:34.640 music or trying to put some new stuff out now, UM, 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:37.960 I just tend to look back and make those same 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:41.560 kind of assessments about my life before you guys asked 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:44.320 a question like that. It's just funny. I tend to 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:47.040 think about these things and wonder, you know, who were 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:49.480 the individuals who set me on this path. And it 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:53.360 wasn't just famous rappers, but it was also the example 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:57.560 of people in my community, um, revolutionary figures, and they 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:01.120 definitively influenced the style of of music that I have 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:04.280 and I wouldn't have this style. I wouldn't be doing 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:06.640 what I do without them, you know what I mean, 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:09.560 even the not just the ones that we remember from 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:13.040 the past that are all heralded and have movies about them, 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:16.400 but the ordinary folks that I met in my life 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:21.400 that I learned, um, not just revolutionary politics from, but 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:24.880 an understanding of what it was like to exist as 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:27.480 a person UM who was black or brown in the 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:31.240 United States of America about twenty or thirty years ago, 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:34.480 as opposed to going through that childhood experience at like 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:38.400 the nineties, UM in my twenties in the early two 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:42.600 thousand's when I was paroled. So I just enjoyed that 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:45.559 that different wealth of knowledge that was bestowed upon me. 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:47.480 But I would say in terms of hip hop, it 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:50.800 was those two that I learned and was influenced by, 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:53.800 and then later on in life also you know, obviously 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:59.400 the Panthers and Malcolm, but also Ma Mia bou jamal Um. 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:03.319 I feel like patrous Lamumba is a person who's overlooked 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:06.760 a lot. And I think, UM sometimes when we look 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:11.640 at indigenous figures of revolution um or whitewashed and written 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:15.199 out of history. So it's important to go back and 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:18.960 talk to those indigenous people about what their struggles actually 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:22.120 were before it gets redefined to us by you know, 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:26.840 mainstream society, which will paint something very you know what 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:28.960 I mean. They don't really give you the opportunity to 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:31.719 represent yourself in the best way, which is why I 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.840 guess I always wanted to do independent music. I wanted 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:36.680 to talk to you a little bit about your verse 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:38.760 on are the Ruggomans Who Do We Trust? Which came 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:41.839 out in January on the track Your Reference thinkers like 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:44.200 Leo Strauss and Robert Michaels, and one of our listeners 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.000 wanted to know if there was any early revolutionary writing 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:51.280 that inspired your own writing. And I'm personally also curious 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:58.800 what you've been reading these days. Um uh. I think that, um, 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:04.520 what I enjoy reading, or have always enjoyed reading, is 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:11.040 a very very detailed historical account of how things were. 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:13.640 And I think that it's one thing to talk about 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:18.960 revolutionary politics and ideology, but unless you can define the 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:22.720 time period upon which it happens, I think that is 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:28.600 essential to revolutionary change. For example, um, we'll all love 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:32.040 boxing in the UFC, but one of the first times 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.920 in which we know that this was done to people. 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:37.760 A gladiatorial arts was born. The birth of it was 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:41.080 during the Servile Wars in the Roman Republic, not the 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:44.760 Empire yet the Republic where everything was supposed to be fixed, 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:49.480 and there was a certain area that refused conscription, and 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:52.600 so the survivors of this revolt were made to fight 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:56.880 to the death against UM. Everyone now sees this in 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:00.600 a different, you know, format on tele vision in one 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.960 way or another. But just remember that the Third Servile 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:07.240 War was where we heard the name Spartacus, which is 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:12.240 the only gladiator gladiator from ancient Rome that people remember, really, 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.360 I mean, we struggled to find another one. But it 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:19.880 was after that that the Roman Republic collapsed within fifties 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:24.560 and became an empire that was more efficient but less 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:27.560 free in many ways than people thought. But at the 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:32.440 same time, the degree of freedom that the Republic bestowed 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:36.320 upon people um wasn't seen by individuals on the bottom 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:39.120 tiers of that society. And we see that reflection in 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:42.720 the United States of America, and music is just a 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:46.840 reflection of that, and people who want to give that 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:50.560 a voice in our society or or or remind individuals 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:53.480 of what we've gone through and everything has its place. 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:55.880 So you know, I always tell people, yeah, I'm not 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.880 the person that you're most likely going to hear banging 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:01.200 in the background of the stre club. But at the 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:04.600 same time, the music that I make is not club music, 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:07.680 so to speak. Sure there's some stuff that's catchy that 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:11.720 moves you, but it was made to to generate thought, 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:13.560 you know what I mean. In the same way a 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:17.800 book has flashy metaphors and great concepts, but unless there's 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:19.360 a point to it all, you know what I mean, 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:21.960 Unless there's a plot, then what the hell did I 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.120 just read for four hundred pages? You know what I mean? 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:26.960 Where where is this going? So I think that's always 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:30.200 been something that I've emphasized, and now I'm doing a 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:33.600 whole bunch of other stuff scriptwriting. Um I'm reading for 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:35.800 a couple of parts that people have asked me to 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.280 come aboard. I'm not an actor by trade, but I 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:41.040 guess they think I look scary and I know how 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:44.440 to I can. I can memorize like ten pages and 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:47.120 a day and it's super easy. And I had just 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:50.280 literally got aboard with this type of stuff. So basically 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:54.080 just that, um, I was in a extend the stuff 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:57.960 that I've been doing musically, two books and film, not 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:00.680 just for adults but for kids, which is weird because 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:03.120 you've got to relearn how to rhyme like a kid, 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:05.080 which is funny. You've got to make it the most 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:08.760 basic format possible, which I'm not used to doing. I'm 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:11.920 used to taking the most complicated words and phrases and 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:14.720 putting them together, so you know what I mean. It's 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:18.240 like asking someone who's a chess player to play checkers. 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:20.800 You know, if you're a chess player, man, you're great 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.040 at chess. But a checkers player, right, white people off 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:24.960 the board and the checkers because it's a different game. 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:27.560 That's how you see, you know, boxing, m m m a. 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:30.600 Some people are really good at one sport, Please don't 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:34.320 get in the other because it's a different game, right, 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:38.360 I remind people. Um. So, something that we're interested in 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:41.640 is the concept of using like hip hop as a 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:46.360 tool for education, UM or even activism or organizing. What 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:52.520 are your thoughts on that? Um? I think you could 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:55.760 definitely say hip hop could be used, but any musical 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.320 form I think could be used. And I think what 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:02.800 I've discovered on this journey of writing the middle Passage 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:08.080 is that that's exactly what the world before we call 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:11.720 it the New World or or European colonialism from the 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:16.840 fourteen to the eighteen centuries, nineteenth century in many places. 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:20.280 But I think when we look at that, all forms 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:25.120 of learning were done through a musical system. Even now, Um, 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:28.639 none of us learned the alphabet through a numerical system, 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:34.000 although in some languages letters have a significant number attached 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:37.959 to him, but all of us learned the alphabet A, B, C, D, 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:41.320 very as a as a musical skain Um. Everything that 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:44.760 was taught to us as a society was done through music. 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:48.919 One of the most riveting things that was brought to 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:51.600 my attention, that is just the truth people have known 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:55.000 for a long time but escaped me, was that there 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:59.960 were tens of thousands of individual African instruments that were 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.600 destroyed during the course of the Middle Passage, and these 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:06.679 were the rhythms, these were the songs, These were the 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:09.600 lessons that were taught to young people about what it 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:12.000 means to be a warrior, what it means to be 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:14.320 a man, what it means to be a person. Where 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:17.000 your places in life, where your places with your people, 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:21.159 where your places in the universe. Yes, abstract concepts like 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.239 that existed very much, so do people. It wasn't like 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:28.080 individuals were just ignorant living in huts like a stereotype 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:31.840 would have people think. No, these were very very well 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:34.879 developed societies for the people that had the means to 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:37.960 get to them, which is the flaw that they inherently had, 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.199 which is how they became colonized so easily. You know, 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:43.760 they when you have a pyramid system, you just have 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:45.840 to knock over the head of the snake, so to speak. 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:48.600 That's how they thought of and that's what you do 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:51.480 to any society. You say, Okay, I have a pyramid 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:53.600 that I wanted to defeat. If you knock off the 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:55.920 head of the snake, and everything else comes down. Which 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:59.840 is why people have misunderstood American politics for so many 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:01.560 is you want to knock go off the head of 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:03.960 the snake. But now you're facing the hydra. You're not 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:09.280 just facing colonialism through one means, you're facing uh culmination 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:12.480 of that religion which paid plays a heavy role in 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:17.800 the colonization, not just for Africans and Indigenous people. That's 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:22.679 a laughing mythology that I think needs to be confronted no, 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:26.199 it's done wonders to enslave white people as well and 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:29.160 have them work against their own interests and work against 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:32.679 workers rights, which again you're dealing with the clergy. The 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:38.480 clergy are uh beyond the bourgeoire institution. The clergy manipulate 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:42.560 in every society a bourgeoisre institution and also uh, the 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:46.720 workers of all institutions, because all of them have some 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:49.600 faith so to speak. There are very few people in 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:53.680 our society when we talk about a global a community 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:57.480 that are atheists. I mean, I love y'all when I 0:19:57.480 --> 0:19:59.840 get to meet y'all out there, whatever y'all are watching, 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:02.880 the no disrespect. I even took my camera off for y'all. 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:05.680 I don't do that for nobody. I love to talk 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:08.679 to you all because I think it's an interesting philosophical conversation. 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:12.960 But again, the vast majority of the planet believes in God, 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:17.480 and someone else has understood that for thousands of years, 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:20.000 and it was just really smart to be able to 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:24.800 manipulate it to create the bastions of the society we 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:28.280 have now. And that's just what, oh my god, they 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:30.800 imagine we could talk about all the rest of them, 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:33.679 you know what I mean? Gender politics, men, women, you 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:37.560 know what I mean, Uh, foreign policy. Sorry, So I'm 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:39.720 glad you touched on like the diversity but also in 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:42.840 some certain aspects the uniformity of like global cultures with 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:45.639 regards to religion. You know, millions and billions people across 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:49.440 the world believe in religion, but do so differently. And 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:52.040 in recent episodes, we tried to shift our spotlight from 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:55.480 North American issues towards a more global perspective, highlighting the 0:20:55.520 --> 0:21:00.240 work and a recent incarceration of Marxist Lenningist rapper blow 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:02.720 A Cell. We talked about the political life of Ugandan 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:06.359 rapper turned presidential candidate Bobby Wine. Um and in your 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:08.840 own music and activists, and we've often highlighted the struggles 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:13.920 against colonialism, particularly global South. Um and I recently, I guess, 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:16.320 like last year I was talking with Antela Davis about 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:20.040 the importance of international solidarity. And I often have this 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:22.560 on my mind, you know, working in local politics myself, 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:25.000 when people get frustrated, when they're trying to get like 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:29.040 they street paved, like not necessarily seeing the relevance of 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:30.919 like what's going on in Haiti or what's going on 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:34.280 in Bolivia. So UM, I just wanted to ask you, 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:36.800 what do you think we can achieve through displays of 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:41.320 international solidarity, both as musicians and as activists. Well, first, 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:44.600 I would say that you don't need to have a 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:48.639 degree in politics to to understand these things. For anyone 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:52.359 out there who thinks that we're asking the impossible of people, um, 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:55.080 when we asked them to be aware, there are plenty aware. 0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:57.359 You know. You see people who live in a jungle 0:21:57.359 --> 0:21:59.840 who don't live in a big city, they're very aware 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:01.720 different things. You live people who live in a big 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:03.880 city and they jump through traffic the way I do, 0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:06.679 like it's nothing. And someone else who doesn't live in 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:09.919 a city where there's just gigantic things coming back and 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:12.120 forth at eighty miles an hour wouldn't get that. They 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:14.400 think you're risking your life, but to me, it's as 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:18.439 simple as running through whatever. Um. I think that there's 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:24.600 been this sort of um primitive verse uh futuristic um 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:27.560 ideology that's been pushed on us that the past or 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:30.320 that the things that we've encountered as part of our 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:33.240 struggle in our society are primitive and this is the 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:38.359 new world where everything is futuristic, but it's just organized barbarism. 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:41.000 I remind people that's what your face when you face 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:43.240 imperialism and when you talk about the South or when 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:47.120 you talk about Africa, where you talk about South America Asia. 0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:50.480 At the end of the day, whether it's a person 0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:52.680 of color or a white person or any other person 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:56.080 in charge of a society, it's just about the resources. 0:22:56.560 --> 0:22:59.560 You know. The ideas that all of Latin America was 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:03.240 some communist haven for years, No, it wasn't that. It 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:05.320 was just that those were the only two things that 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:09.200 people were serving, pepsi and coke. You know, whenever a 0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:15.000 leftist society came into power, they immediately consolidated um um, 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:18.080