1 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WOKF Daily with me 2 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: your girl, Daniel Moody recording from the home bunker, which 3 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: is pretty much where I'm going to just stay, folks. 4 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: You know, every week we get into conversation with our 5 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: friend or in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel, and the 6 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: conversations are becoming, you know, increasingly dire and eye opening 7 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: as to what Jonathan is experiencing as a Jewish American 8 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: person in this country. What is transpiring in terms of 9 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: the tribalism that is intensifying. Are we opening the door 10 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: right now? Is the door wide open for Donald Trump 11 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: to become the reigning king of fascist king of America. 12 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: We are in such a critical, scary, tragic, worrysome crazy 13 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: fucking time, and each week Jonathan and I are doing 14 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: our best to engage in conversation to try and make 15 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: sense of what increasingly just doesn't make sense. But what 16 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: we do know is that this white supremacist, right wing 17 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: anti democratic Republican party is using every fissure that they 18 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: can in order to create a chasm between the American 19 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: public and our beliefs and our values that are aligned 20 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: with our constitution and democracy and with each appointment of 21 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: a right wing person like a Mike Johnson to be 22 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: two heartbeats away from the presidency that believes in quote 23 00:01:53,880 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: eighteenth century values to Donald Trump's now referring to his 24 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: Democratic opponents as quote vermin, which is Nazi language that 25 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: we have heard before, and don't be mistaken like, oh, 26 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: he's just misspeaking. He is not. The writing is on 27 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 1: the wall for American democracy and whether or not one 28 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: we can reimagine and rebrand ourselves as the authorities on 29 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: how to bring this world and this country back together 30 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: or if as Jonathan mentioned in an article in Salon 31 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 1: which I encourage everyone to read, which is incredibly important 32 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: and timely entitled Trump's public Plan for Revenge hands Democrats 33 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: the quote greatest opportunity for a positive outcome. Now, this 34 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: title does not match the dire alarms that each of 35 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: the authors and journalists that are interviewed, including Jonathan, are ringing. 36 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: But folks, it is up at Salon dot com right now. 37 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: It is. It's critical. It's important for us to be 38 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: engaging in conversations that are hard, that are uncomfortable, because 39 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,239 Speaker 1: it's the only way that we are going to get through. 40 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: So I encourage you as you may be deciding to 41 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: gather with family and friends for the upcoming holiday season, 42 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: that we need to be talking, not avoiding one another. 43 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: We need to be trying to knit ourselves back together, 44 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: not going into our corners right and there are constructive 45 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: ways that we can do this, but we have got 46 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: to start with the people that are in front of 47 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: us and around us if we are to come back 48 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: together again. Coming up next, my conversation with our friend 49 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: Jonathan Metzel. Folks, you know that whenever we have the 50 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: opportunity to speak with our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel, 51 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: we are always thrilled and appreciate his time and analysis, 52 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: particularly during this time of multiple crises that continue to 53 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: unfold globally. And you know, I would be remiss if 54 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: I was not also mentioning the fact that while we 55 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: are covering what is happening in Gaza and Israel, while 56 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: we have covered what has happened in Ukraine and Russia, 57 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: there are also an ethnic cleansing campaign that is happening 58 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: in the Congo. There is also a lot of violence 59 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: and destruction that is happening in several nations around this 60 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: country that don't get the same amount of press and 61 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,239 Speaker 1: attention at all that we will continue. We will try 62 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: to highlight and bring to light on this show. But Jonathan, 63 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: just recently last week, you were telling us that you 64 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: were headed to participate in a D and I talk 65 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 1: and conversation, and things started off well as you were 66 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: texting me, and then they went left. So I just 67 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: want to give you a few minutes before we transition 68 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: to an article in Salon that you were also in 69 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: to talk about what happened at this event and why 70 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: it kind of opened up your eyes, made you uneasy 71 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: and concerned about how we as democrats, we collectively as 72 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 1: a society, are moving forward. 73 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 2: Well, I just want to be clear, thank you for asking. 74 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 2: I want to be clear that I spoke at six 75 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 2: seven events last week, and so I'm not singling out 76 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 2: any particular event or any particular thing, Right. I gave 77 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 2: a lot of talks in general, very positive experiences, right, 78 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: And that's kind of how so the caveat of all 79 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 2: this that you can ever make on social media is like, 80 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 2: you know, I had one hundred interactions and ninety nine 81 00:05:55,760 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 2: were positive and one was antisemitic, racist, or or is lamophobic. 82 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:02,679 Speaker 2: And that's the one that everybody's going to retweet, and 83 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 2: then it comes to stand in for everything, like metonomy 84 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 2: is the way that all that works. So I want 85 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 2: to be clear that I had a lot of very 86 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 2: positive experiences last week. But I also gave a lecture 87 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 2: in the home crowd for me, right, I mean, I'm 88 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 2: a white guy who studies race, and I'm a guy 89 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 2: who has studied race and inequity and structural inequity. I 90 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 2: don't know, probably since high school. Like it's just kind 91 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 2: of how I see the world. And I do firmly 92 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 2: believe that those are the places I feel the most comfortable. 93 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 2: So this was a place I would have I do 94 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: still feel like is the most comfortable. And I gave 95 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 2: a talk about the Affordable Care Act and how health 96 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 2: justice is social justice, and I was talking about the 97 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 2: Bisher election in Kentucky and how important it was that 98 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 2: somebody who ran on a platform that was we needed 99 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 2: to give health in terms of everybody expanding the Medicaid. 100 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: He's got a you know, been pushing for a long 101 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 2: time to give health insurance to one hundred percent of 102 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: black people in Tennessee. So he's outstanding in my book. 103 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 2: And I said, like, this is this is how we 104 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 2: do it right. It's not so much about like kumbaya 105 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: group hug stuff. It's like, let's fix the structures where 106 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 2: everybody just feels like they don't have to worry about it, 107 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 2: like there's somebody looking out for them the whole thing. 108 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 2: So I even talk about US health insurance. I not 109 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 2: that you know whatever, but I got a quite a 110 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: large ovation afterwards. It was like, oh my god, this 111 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 2: is so great. The world has fallen to shit, but 112 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 2: like at least I have this crowd. And then the 113 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 2: first question from the audience was do you support the 114 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: Hummas feeding fighters? And I'm like, well, I didn't really 115 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 2: give a talk just now about the Middle East. I 116 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: did say in my talk and like somewhere like my 117 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 2: dad is a Holocaust survivor from Europe who came to 118 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 2: this country to to and he became a doctor because 119 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 2: he feels like, you know, restoring health is the best 120 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 2: thing he can do to repay this country and stuff 121 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 2: like that. So I did say, my day's a whole 122 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 2: cast er. That's all I said. But the first question 123 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 2: was about the gods of freedom fighters and I said, well, look, 124 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 2: you know, I think the Middle East is really important. 125 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 2: I'm happy to come back and actually give another talk 126 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 2: about this, but that's not the talk. That's not the 127 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 2: talk I gave. And I don't want to just answer 128 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 2: you in a you know, fifteen second SoundBite for something 129 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 2: so complicated when we're all having this intense emotional response 130 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 2: right now. Second question is, you didn't mention the word 131 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 2: genocide in your talk. How can you justify not mentioning genocide? 132 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 2: And I said, well, let me just say again, I 133 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 2: didn't give a talk about the Middle East. I give 134 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 2: a talk about health equity and social justice. So that 135 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 2: was the first ten questions sounded exactly like that, right, which. 136 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 1: From different and I just want to be clear, like 137 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: from different audience members. 138 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:01,559 Speaker 2: Right yeah. And then people were making comments like if 139 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: we just take all the money we give to the 140 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 2: colonial settler state of Israel, then everybody in this country 141 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 2: could have health insurance and stuff like that, which sorry, 142 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 2: I don't agree with, but I mean it's just like 143 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 2: it's easy, it's too easy to say something like that, 144 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 2: you know, and just personally, even though that wasn't what 145 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 2: my talk was about. Again, I do feel like part 146 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 2: of the reason the world's falling to shit right now. 147 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 2: Is in part for us, Like it's not falling to 148 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 2: shit for like Russia and China. Right, the reason it's 149 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: falling too shit is because like we haven't engaged enough 150 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 2: globally in being a credible peacemaker and stuff like that, 151 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 2: Like we're just relying on these allies that we had 152 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 2: and stuff like that. So I think, you know, we 153 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 2: need to be more engaged globally, not less. That's my 154 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 2: personal feeling. But again, nothing to do what's over with 155 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 2: my talk. So the first ten questions were all about this, 156 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 2: and it was just weird for me because like there 157 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 2: had been three talks before mine, and they were all 158 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 2: people who probably weren't Jewish, and. 159 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: I was going to I was gonna say, I'm like, 160 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: so the difference is here that in your talk, you 161 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,719 Speaker 1: you talked about your family history, which involves the Holocaust, 162 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: namely stating that I am Jewish, and then the response 163 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: to that was a mirage of questions on something that 164 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: you didn't actually discuss at all. I think, though, Jonathan, 165 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: was what did you glean from the point of that 166 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: being to hit you with those types of questions when 167 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: it wasn't the premise of your talk or you know, 168 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: of of that of that engagement. 169 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 2: Well, so honestly, if somebody would have asked me it, honestly, 170 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 2: it fucking pissed me off, to be honest, like it 171 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 2: really was insulting. Just to be totally honest, I didn't 172 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 2: see it coming. I wasn't prepared for it. It's not 173 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 2: like I'm not talking about the Middle East, but I 174 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 2: think it was here's a Jewish guy, right, the answer 175 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 2: for all Jewish people everywhere, even if that's not what 176 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 2: you're talking about. And I didn't I was supposed to 177 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 2: do book signing. I actually left. I didn't do a 178 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 2: book signing. I it's just and it was just the 179 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 2: weird thing was like for the first hour of my talk, 180 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 2: I was like the hero in the room, and then 181 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 2: I I just I didn't even do the book signing. 182 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 2: Like I just was like, this doesn't feel safe for me, 183 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like it was weird. In 184 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 2: five minutes, everything changed. And I just think, like my 185 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 2: one of my closest friends at Vanderbilt, my close colleague, 186 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 2: we work together all the time. She's Palestinian, Christian Lebanese 187 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 2: and she has a really complicated history in the Middle East. Also, 188 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 2: like as I've talked about on the show. I've worked, 189 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 2: I have a lot of family in Israel. I've worked 190 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 2: for Israel Palestine physicians for human rights. And you know, 191 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 2: if you're a Christian, Palestinian Lebanese, you also have a 192 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 2: really complicated history with the Middle East. And so every 193 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 2: time now she told me, she gives a talk, liberal 194 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 2: audiences are asking her, will you disavow Hamas And She's like, 195 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 2: you're asking me that why because I'm talking about like 196 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 2: business strategy and stuff like that. So it's just like 197 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 2: this form of like identity politics that for me is 198 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 2: like incredibly, incredibly dangerous, honestly, And just to be clear, 199 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 2: if somebody would have asked me, I've been thinking about 200 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 2: this a lot. If somebody has said, you're a Jewish 201 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 2: scholar of race with a particular family history, and you've 202 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 2: been an advocateate for social justice, and how does your 203 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 2: history and the research you've shared with us help you 204 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 2: understand what's happening in the Middle East right now? I 205 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 2: think that would have been a totally fine question for me. 206 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 2: You know, I think if somebody would have acknowledged, like, hey, 207 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 2: people are different, they have different opinions. Your experience must 208 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 2: shape why you do this work. I actually think I 209 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 2: would have been fine answering that question. It was more 210 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 2: like putting me on the spot to like disavowed genocide, 211 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 2: the way that my friend is put on the spot 212 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 2: to disavow Hamas knowing nothing about like my position or 213 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 2: my attitude or anything like that. 214 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 1: It's just, you know, and I think that what you experience, 215 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: of what your colleague experience, colleague experience, and what like 216 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: Muslims continue to experience every time that there is some 217 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: type of attack, And think back to nine to eleven 218 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: and the ways in which Muslim Americans were singled out 219 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: to consistently, if you are from a marginalized group and 220 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: a member of said group commits some type of atrocity, 221 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: it is now your responsibility to disavow that atrocity. 222 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 2: Right. 223 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: But every time that a white Christian, you know, maga 224 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: gunman goes in and slaughters a bunch of people, whether 225 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: it's at a movie theater or a concert, we don't 226 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: ask every white senator, every white person who is Christian 227 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: to come up and disavow gun violence, right. And so 228 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: it's just like that experience I think is even not 229 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: even just about identity politics. It's that coupled with the 230 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: tribalism that is being exacerbated by this really intense moment 231 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: that we are in. 232 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 2: And like I'm sorry, I'm at a DEI event, Like 233 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like if anybody should know 234 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 2: not to like have one person stand in for every 235 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 2: single person, because it's because it's not a useful conversation, 236 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 2: right to say, here's your position, here's my position. I 237 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 2: want you to assume this position or whatever, like like 238 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 2: a DEI event should be the last place that this 239 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 2: kind of thing happened, right, And so it's just it 240 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 2: was just like man, if we're fighting and so and 241 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 2: I've had a couple other like I didn't even tell you, 242 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 2: like pretty weird, you know, just people are crazy right now. 243 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 2: Like I mean, I don't know. I go the only 244 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 2: Jewish guide in Missouri, So I think anti Semitism is 245 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 2: like it's like I don't know, I've I just felt 246 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 2: like I outgrew it or something. It's it's embarrassing because 247 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 2: it's so dumb. But it's like really everywhere right now, 248 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 2: a lot of the stuff where everybody's like, oh, you're 249 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 2: not me or you like there's a level of tribalism 250 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 2: right now. That is incredibly divisive for the like coalitions 251 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 2: we've been building for the past however many years. And 252 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 2: it's also just like dumb. It's also dumb. And I've 253 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 2: had like so many like dumb things happen that are 254 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 2: just like left me scratching my alopeciak head, you know 255 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 2: that are that are that are just you know, I mean, 256 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 2: we can talk about this later. But like people like 257 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 2: over identify with one group or another to like virtue 258 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 2: signal against other Like I had somebody interview me. People 259 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 2: are faking like they're Palestinian in interviews with me to 260 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 2: like critique Jews like some and so I said a 261 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 2: few things. 262 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: It's just I think that we're in like I think 263 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: that your experience illuminates for us what a I want 264 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: to say, like what a tragic but also hysterical time 265 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: that we're in, meaning that the the hysteria, the the 266 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: wave of emotion, and like you know, I mean I 267 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: can look at what Amy Schumer has been called out 268 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: for doing on social media in terms of centering herself 269 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: in like in in the crisis, and somebody that had 270 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: used the language that she's been using on social media 271 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: in posts that she is since taken down. If she 272 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: were Muslim and doing that, her career would be over. 273 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 1: And so it's just like this idea, we can both 274 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: have intense emotions and work through those emotions without having 275 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 1: to falsify, exaggerate, or center ourselves in something that we 276 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: are not experiencing in the same way that people that 277 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: are living in this space are experiencing it, or people 278 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: who have family and friends that are living in this 279 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: space are experiencing these things. And I'm just like the 280 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: reactions as this goes on, as we enter day, as 281 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: we enter like day forty plus, is just I'm really 282 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 1: concerned about about how it is, how the emotions are intensifying, 283 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 1: not lessening, right, you know, the and where that is 284 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: going to take us. And I want to give you 285 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: an opportunity to respond on but then I want to 286 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: transition quickly to your a piece that you were interviewed 287 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: in for Salon, which I think kind of dovetails what's 288 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: happening here. 289 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 2: Well, so I mean again I'm not I'm asking for 290 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 2: like this. You know, it's life and death right now. 291 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 2: I understand why this is so emotional and so profound, 292 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 2: and I don't know we could do in like nine 293 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 2: hundred shows about this. Honestly, I will just say that. 294 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 2: I'll just say that I've been thinking a lot about 295 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 2: Remember that movie The Great Hack. I think it was 296 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 2: called about the Cambridge Analytica method, where they would have 297 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,479 Speaker 2: fascists or right wingers take over countries and what they 298 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 2: would do would be to find these divisive issues that 299 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 2: would split apart coalitions, like profoundly split apart coalitions, and 300 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 2: the aim wasn't to get people to vote for their party. 301 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 2: They realized that the old method of like political manipulation 302 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 2: was to get people to vote for your party, but 303 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 2: the new method was to feel like their friends were 304 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 2: really their enemies because of something that felt like deep 305 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 2: and essence. And then the goal was to get these 306 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 2: people not to vote for their candidate, but to not vote, 307 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,360 Speaker 2: to feel like the system wasn't working for them, their 308 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 2: allies were no longer had their best interests, and this 309 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 2: led to political upheaval in all these countries, right, and 310 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 2: it was tried on us with Trump and then we 311 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 2: overcame and stuff like that. But I just feel like 312 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 2: there's a level of like it's like tribalism but also man, 313 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 2: there is a lot of manipulation happening right now to 314 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 2: set people against each other that is completely fracturing. I mean, 315 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 2: it's just really Dangerous's dangerous because of what it is. 316 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 2: But like, I don't know if somebody really believes who 317 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 2: was my ally two months ago that now because I'm 318 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 2: Jewish American and because I'm a child of a Holocaust 319 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 2: survivor and my dad is having like TSD flashbacks about 320 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 2: what's happening in the world right now, and that's my life. 321 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 2: And I'm also somebody who's been protesting, as you know, 322 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 2: in person, the Nitan Yahoo government in Israel for a 323 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 2: year and have been part of coalitions that are doing 324 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 2: that and stuff like, like my views on this are 325 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 2: like shaped by all the work I've done, all the 326 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 2: coalition work I've done, and stuff like that. Do you 327 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,640 Speaker 2: really want to put me in like a category of 328 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 2: like good or evil based on what you think my 329 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,719 Speaker 2: position is? And then if I'm evil, I'm just evil, 330 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:36,360 Speaker 2: And you know, and I just the level of us 331 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 2: in them right now, which is breaking people into like 332 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 2: little groups, is exactly exactly what this Cambridge Analytica model was, 333 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 2: which was how fascists take over is you break people 334 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 2: into groups. You don't trust institutions anymore, you don't trust 335 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 2: compromise or dialogue, you don't see strategy coherently. And if 336 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 2: there's like nine hundred, we become like a bunch of 337 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 2: like protest parties, nine thousand protest parties. And then Trump 338 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 2: takes over because everybody's anxious, and then the country is like, oh, well, 339 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 2: we need a fascist to put it all back together. 340 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: And I think that that is exactly what we're seeing happen. Yes, 341 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: there is. There is a significant amount of misinformation, which 342 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: I believe that we are also readily aware of. This 343 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: is not our first time, it's not our second time, 344 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: Like we know that it is happening. I also think, though, 345 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: and this is what made me concerned about the peace 346 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 1: in Salon, that you is the fact that, aside from 347 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: the misinformation, progressives in a whole host of buckets are 348 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: really angry with the Biden administration. Yeah, and the piece 349 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 1: ends with saying, you know, we have twelve months to 350 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 1: kind of sort out what our differences are. And I 351 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: argue against that. I think that we have more, like, 352 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: you know, eight to ten months to sort that out. 353 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 1: But I'm like the fact is that there is video 354 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: coming up of Joe Biden talking about Zionism. There is 355 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 1: video and things that are circulating that aren't misinformation, right, 356 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: that are actually just from thirty forty years ago, and 357 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: it is driving this sense of frustration that people were 358 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: already having, right, which is why the administration is saying, 359 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 1: you know, we've done all of these great things. But 360 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 1: the fact of the matter is when I talk to 361 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: democratic messengers, voters don't care about what you have done. 362 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:48,959 Speaker 1: They care about what you were going to do or 363 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: what you were actively doing. And what is problematic with 364 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 1: this administration as it pertains to what is happening in 365 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: the Middle East right now, is that many believe that 366 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: you cannot fight for democracy at home and talk about 367 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: fascism and stochastic terrorism and all of these things and 368 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: credibly stand and say that here and and be arming 369 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: and weaponizing right like against other groups self determination. And 370 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 1: so I find I'm wondering for you as you read through, 371 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 1: you know, as you as you offered your interview in 372 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 1: this piece, and as we move as the as a 373 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: calendar year is about to change, you know, I feel 374 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: like there's always a blame that is placed on progresses like, oh, 375 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: it's going to be your fault black people if you 376 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 1: don't come out. It's going to be the young people's 377 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: fault if they don't come out. It's always somebody's fault 378 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: as opposed to the people who are in power that 379 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: are actually actively not trying to get people's vote. And 380 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: it isn't enough anymore to just say Donald Trump is 381 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: going to be you know that, we know this right 382 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: And I'm voting for Biden regardless of where my feelings 383 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: are with him right now, because the opposite is just 384 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: too fucking dangerous. But I think that there are too 385 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 1: many people that don't believe that, and frankly, I know 386 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: a lot of them. 387 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 2: No, I know a lot of them too. I mean, 388 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 2: I think that just saying vote for me because the 389 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 2: other guy's worst is not we've known. You have to 390 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 2: actually be motivated to vote for your person. I mean, 391 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 2: you know, just forgetting this moment, like Bob Dolden when 392 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 2: John Carrie didn't win, Like unmotivated characters don't win elections, 393 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 2: and Biden is if people aren't excited about Biden, he 394 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 2: shouldn't be the nominee. As I've been saying on this 395 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 2: show for over a year, and I wish that we 396 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 2: had somebody who was I mean, you know, I'm it's 397 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,360 Speaker 2: funny because like I'm not saying like this is all misinformation. 398 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 2: I think there are real issues. I mean, I think 399 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 2: what's happening is we're highlighting like real issues, and I 400 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 2: wish I personally, deeply feel like if Natanya who wasn't 401 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 2: the head of Israel, and if we had a better, 402 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 2: more nuanced politician who could have advocated for many positions 403 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 2: at one time instead of just embracing Nitanyaho in the beginning, 404 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 2: I just I just don't feel like personally we would 405 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 2: have even gotten to this point, right it could you 406 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 2: can have all these things like so, I mean, obviously 407 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 2: I'm not trying to dance around it, like I don't 408 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 2: support I don't feel like what's happening now is in 409 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 2: anybody's interests. I don't think bombing and killing a bunch 410 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 2: of people is a good ethical or moral or strategic move. 411 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:41,199 Speaker 2: But I don't know, Like I just think that. I 412 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 2: just think that things are really urgent right now because 413 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 2: like the things that would need to change in the 414 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 2: next nine months maybe are replacing Biden as the nominee, 415 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 2: but then that would sure set off a fight in 416 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 2: the Democratic Party. And do we have time for that 417 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 2: fight right now? No? 418 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: No, no, no, we do not. 419 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 2: And like again, like I've been vocally and physically in 420 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 2: terms of like my body against Nitanyahu because I think 421 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 2: it's incredibly criminal and disrespectful to walk through other people's 422 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 2: holy places and expand settlements and all these kind of things. 423 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 2: But in Israel, like all my friends are like terrified 424 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 2: would it mean for them to switch leaders in the 425 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,360 Speaker 2: middle of a war and stuff like that, And so 426 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 2: just the pieces that need to change right now are 427 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 2: because like I do, I just will always believe I mean, 428 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 2: I mean, I'll just if you want to know, like 429 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 2: what my beliefs are, you know, I think that they're 430 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 2: I think that I think that splitting apart. Like just 431 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 2: to be honest, I'm freaking terrified for Jews right now. 432 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 2: That march in Washington scared the crap out of me 433 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 2: because I don't think I don't think just align with 434 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 2: Conservatism is a great move. Like I think we're in 435 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 2: alliance with like everybody, we've historic've been in an alliance 436 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 2: with forever, and I do think there's a room in 437 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 2: democratic liberalism to support the idea that there should be 438 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 2: a protected homeland for Jews, but also not support the 439 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 2: murder that's happening right now. And it's taken a long 440 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 2: time to really think about that. So I think, like, 441 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 2: if there's a realistic peace plan that's going to like 442 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 2: create that's going to come out of this horrmone moment. 443 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 2: But the thing is, like, the US needs a leader 444 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 2: who's like a visionary that's promoting that model right now, 445 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 2: not just. 446 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: And I mean, here's the thing. I know, and I 447 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 1: and I wholeheartedly right, I wholeheartedly agree with you. And 448 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: I'm just like, but when you said even even even 449 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: the the the thought of switching from Biden to somebody 450 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: else at this moment, in our in in in in 451 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: in our global heated moment, in our like domestic heated moment, 452 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: I'm like, are we crazy? Like no, that like that 453 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 1: literally cannot happen. And at the same time, I'm just like, yeah, 454 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: I wish that this was not the horse that we 455 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: were all supposed to get behind, Like that is that 456 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: is facts. 457 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 2: I mean, you know how the I'm not going to 458 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 2: make a horse joke. I'm not going to make a 459 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 2: diuretics joke or lasix or anything like that. I'm not 460 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 2: going to make that joke, but I'll just say, like 461 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 2: I don't know, I'm going to try to be optimistic. 462 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's person. It's a tall it's a tall, it's 463 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: a tall feat. 464 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 2: I'm a better person because of all the alliance work 465 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 2: I've done in my life. And I feel like that's 466 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 2: what I'm that's what got me here in my life. 467 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 2: And I and I still feel like I'm an alliance 468 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 2: with the same people I've been in alliance with my 469 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 2: entire life, and and and now is a really hard time, 470 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 2: right people are really having really hard conversations about this. 471 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 2: I think it's unfortunately, like the reason Biden one last 472 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 2: time was because of a grassroots belief in that kind 473 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 2: of betterment. And I do think that. I mean, I 474 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 2: don't know where do I draw the line personally, Like 475 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 2: I just I don't want my relatives or anybody I 476 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 2: know in the Middle East to get thrown into the sea. 477 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 2: Like that's just kind of where I draw the line personally. 478 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 2: I think there's a line for talking about that that 479 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 2: still maintains, like all of our alliances in this country. 480 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 2: And I think we also have to realize that the 481 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,239 Speaker 2: response that's happening in this country is a response to 482 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 2: like fractures in US politics. It's certainly about what's happening 483 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 2: in the Middle East, but it's also about like unresolved 484 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:44,479 Speaker 2: visires about everything that Duboice wrote about, you know, a 485 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 2: long time ago. Yeah, and so and so. If we 486 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 2: come out of this with a peaceful two state solution 487 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 2: that is vibrant and energizing and the new center of 488 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 2: the world, and if we come out of this like 489 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 2: exposing our divisions, coming closer together through those rifts to 490 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 2: realize like the alliance, then that's a great outcome. If 491 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 2: we come out of this with Trump winning, Jews all 492 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 2: becoming Republicans, in which case like I'm out, you know, 493 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 2: and stuff like that, then it's an it's a worse outcome. 494 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 2: So it's a scary moment. I guess the only thing 495 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 2: I can say is, the night before the election, if 496 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 2: every liberal, progressive, anybody takes ayahuasca and then goes to 497 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 2: the polls like tripping out on shrooms and stuff like 498 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 2: that and then votes, that might be the best way 499 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 2: we get through this. But it's it's a scary moment. 500 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: Man, it's bad, and we will put a pin in 501 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: it for there is Yeah, there's for years. I tell 502 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: I tell people all the time, like go after this episode, 503 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: go take a walk, Go take a walk, Go do 504 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: some deep breathing, because it is We're going to be 505 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: in for a ride come twenty twenty four. It's not. 506 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 2: I would love to hear from our listeners honestly, because 507 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 2: you know I'm. 508 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: Folks respond I mean, they yeah, it's a hard it's 509 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: a hard moment, and I think that it is if 510 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: you're having conversations on your own worll You know many 511 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: people who do celebrate the holiday or getting ready to 512 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: gather with family and friends. You know, it is an 513 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: important time to be in conversation, not to be avoidant, 514 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,479 Speaker 1: and I encourage people to have constructive conversations, to have 515 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: compassionate conversations that allow us to move forward. But we 516 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: we will be back next week, Jonathan, and I always 517 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: appreciate your time. 518 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 2: Hang in there, everybody, and take more hallucinogens. 519 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: That is it for me today, dear friends on wo 520 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: gay app as always power to the people and to 521 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.