WEBVTT - Did Postal Chief Violate Campaign Finance Laws? 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:05.720 You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.440 After lawsuits and weeks of criticism for the widespread delays 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:16.000 in the mail, Postmaster General Lewis Dejoi is facing more problems. 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:19.919 The House Oversight Committee is launching an investigation into whether 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:23.960 de Joy pressured employees at his former business to contribute 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:27.960 to Republican candidates and then reimburse them with company funds 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:32.280 and the guise of bonuses, in violation of campaign finance laws. 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.760 The Washington Post reported that five employees of DeJoy's former 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:41.080 North Carolina company, New Breed Logistics, said they were urged 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:44.160 by de Joy's aids or by DeJoy himself, to write 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:48.120 checks to Republicans and attend fundraisers at his mansion, later 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:51.880 to be reimbursed in bonuses. My guest is Mareth McGehee, 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:55.160 the executive director of Issue One, which advocates for a 0:00:55.200 --> 0:01:00.200 stronger campaign finance laws. Merit. The basic scheme alleged here 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:04.200 hiding where donations come from by having employees make them 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:08.200 and then reimbursing them. Is that considered illegal? Well, it's 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:12.280 one of the bedrocks of financial and campaign finance disclosure. 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.480 That the purpose of having it is you know the 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:19.720 true source of the money, and so this notion of 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:23.399 giving in the name of another has been something that 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:26.880 has been illegal since the nineteen seventies in the campaign 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:30.319 finance context, but it's often a problem when you have 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:34.880 disclosure rules. People's attempts to evade those rules kind of 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:38.800 described the situation where getting in the name of another 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:41.959 is this is often referred to, is one of the 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:47.240 few places where both campaign finance law is clear and 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:51.880 it actually has, unlike many other portions of law, been 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:56.440 enforced robustly over the years. So there's a strong record 0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:01.360 of enforcement precisely on this question. It doesn't get into 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:04.920 all the other questions of dark money, what is coordination, 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:09.240 all these other you know, places where lives and managed 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:12.240 to make it fairly murky. This is a clear black line. 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:16.560 So then if the joy was prosecuted for this, it 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:20.640 would be a pretty straightforward case. Well, you have to 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:24.400 show the facts, obviously, but they've had many instances of 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:27.520 people trying to hide some of the giving and the 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:32.359 name of another through bonuses, through family members. There has 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:36.080 been a record of many people who have tried to 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:39.440 go down this path, and the law, and the record 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:42.239 here is that if you have the facts and it 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:44.919 can show what happens, and you don't really have much 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:49.280 of an excuse for it. Companies can contribute through packs, 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:54.560 But what did Joy did here was reimbursing employees with 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:58.960 company money. Is that wrong? Well, there's a few factors 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:02.200 here to consider. So let's take your normal political action 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:04.359 committee and this could be whether it as a corporate 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:07.680 pack or a union pack, but especially corporate pack. The 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:12.000 way they generally work is that the donations to that pack, 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:17.079 by law, has to be voluntary. That's by law. They 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:22.440 cannot be compulsory. Second most executives, and this is usually 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:25.919 from you know, employees of a corporation. They get a 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:28.680 slip in their paycheck that says now at the time, 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:31.760 for you to make your contribution to our pack. And 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.240 then it is up to an individual to decide whetter 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:36.280 to do that. And there might be a point at 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:38.880 which you have a whole meeting and people are sitting 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:41.480 around a room and one of the people, usually the 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:44.080 general council or someone who runs the pack, gets up 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:46.040 with this, Well, you want to make sure your voice 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:49.480 is heard in Washington. Make sure you make your pack contribution. 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:51.360 You know, this is going to be really important for 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:55.120 our company. All those happened regularly and are permitted by law. 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:59.120 There can even be some part where somebody turns to 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:01.600 you if you're a high level executive and says, hey, 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:05.000 have you made your contribution this year? And you could, 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:08.760 you know, certainly feel some pressure. Even though it's supposed 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:12.800 to be voluntary, you could certainly conceivably feel pressure to 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:15.120 make that contribution to show that you want to rise 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:18.919 in the company. All those things happen on a regular basis. 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:22.120 So does it depend on how much pressure whether the 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:26.799 employee feels like he or she might be losing their job. 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:30.800 In this case, apparently there were emails were sent that 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:34.560 invited employees to fundraisers. They were follow up calls and 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:39.320 visits to employees desks. So there's the line between Okay, 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:42.599 at what point is something that's supposed to be voluntary 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:45.839 become compulsory? Right? You would have to look at the 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:49.080 set of facts to determine whether that occurred. Something that 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:51.800 was supposed to be voluntary. Hey, if you want to 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:54.400 get ahead of this company, you'll know what you'll do. Right. 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:57.479 Then you've crossed into a line but that's I'm just 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:00.720 drawing that picture because I think it's important understand that 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:03.400 that kind of happens on a regular basis every day. 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.120 Why are the line here? I think it sounds like 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:08.960 according to the stories that come out, it's one thing 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:12.039 for someone to say, hey, if you're a good company employee, 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:15.200 you'll give to the pack. It's a far far different 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:18.400 thing to say, hey, you make your contribution and I'll 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:21.640 make sure you know that it gets covered, or I'll 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:24.279 get it, cover it and any taxes based on them 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:27.600 on the bonus, or why don't you have your wife 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:29.600 to it and I'll make sure that it gets covered. 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:34.599 You've crossed the rubicon on legality when you start getting 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:37.520 into the world of you know, and I'll make sure 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:40.760 it gets covered. There's a separate question of whether or 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:44.920 not it's been voluntary based on the pressure. That's one question. 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:48.200 There's a very different question about whether or not any 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:53.080 contribution was then covered financially. I suppose a close investigation 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:56.839 of the books would absolutely show whether or not there 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:01.719 was a reimbursement of the employee contributions dollar for dollar. Yes, 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:04.120 And you know, it's very interesting when you look at 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:06.440 some of the past cases. There was one involving the 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:11.680 Fiesta Ball back many years ago, and uh, it almost 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:16.880 sounds like a repeat of many of the instances where 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:23.520 the x CEO of the Fiestable actually pleaded guilty in 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:28.480 connection with this kind of um you know, evasion and 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:32.760 donation in the name of another. So they say, there's 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:37.000 kind of a long record of where people have tried 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:40.160 to gain this because they want to get the political credit, 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:43.640 but they end up getting tripped up and in some 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:45.960 cases in that case they were not only crying to 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:48.680 excuse somebody actually went to jail, which was pretty unusual. 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:51.760 So yeah, you have to look at when what was 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:56.360 the between the donations and any reimbursements set that occurs 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:00.640 Nowadays we have email trails, so what was the understanding 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:03.520 All that comes into the mix as part of the 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:07.000 fact case that would be looked at. How often does 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:09.640 this go on across the country because this would not 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:13.800 have been discovered unless he had become Postmaster General and 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:20.560 there was all this investigation into his past. Unfortunately, these 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:23.280 straw downers are they as they take contributions to the 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:27.040 name of another are strictly prohibited. But we first have 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:30.800 a federal election commission that currently does not even have 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:34.680 a quorum. Even when they do, they're very weak and 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:40.040 many times, uh you know, their investigative capacity is quite limited. 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:42.960 It will only come cases only come to their attention 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:46.400 like this if there's really just been either a press 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.440 report or there's been a whistle blore. So it's kind 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:52.920 of hard to say how often it occurs. Usually, if 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:56.760 you have a decent general counsel, part of their job 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:00.560 to make sure you don't do some thing like this, 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:04.120 which is kind of one of the it's easy to do, 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:08.440 but it should be easy to know where the line is, 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:11.440 and uh, you know, to me, this is a failure 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:15.760 of whoever his campaign finance and company lawyers were to 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:17.880 make sure that they didn't cross. But it is a 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:20.240 pretty clear line. As they say, there's a lot of 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:23.320 murky lines when he comes to camping finance, and this 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:27.040 isn't one of them. Joyce said that he wasn't aware 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:31.440 that any employees felt pressured, right, there's a difference between 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:36.600 feeling pressured and getting reimbursed. The statute of limitation seems 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:40.600 to have run in this case, so he probably won't 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:45.719 be prosecuted federally. But apparently North Carolina. He could be 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:50.720 prosecuted under North Carolina laws. Yes. In fact, the Common 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:55.600 Cause I just saw on the news wire had just 0:08:55.760 --> 0:09:00.319 filed a complaint in North Carolina. So that has been 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:04.839 brought to the attention in North Carolina. So the way 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:07.719 I understand that North Carolina's is not a statute of 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:11.200 limitations unlike federal law, which is five years. So that's 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:14.640 why they filed that complaint calling for an investigation of 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:19.920 the straw Downers scheme. Because the company was in high Point, 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:23.839 North Carolina, a new breed logistics would fall under North 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:28.160 Carolina law. Does the federal government outside of the FEC 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:34.920 do they often bring prosecutions for campaign finance violations? Well, 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:40.560 there's two ways that these investigations go. So the Federal 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:46.160 Election Commission can conduct an investigation and decide their administrative fine, 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:50.960 or if they believe that there has been a criminal violation, 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:54.840 usually wilful and knowing, then they get referred to the 0:09:54.920 --> 0:10:00.880 Justice Department and there's a public Integrity section that would then, uh, 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:04.319 you know, take that case on and do the investigation 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:07.880 and bring any any you know, lawsuit against those folks. 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:12.560 So the Federal Election Commission does not have the ability 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:17.800 under current law to adjudicate any criminal willful and knowing 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:22.000 violation that all falls to the d o J and 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:27.479 the House Democrats. The Oversight Committee has launched an investigation 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:31.720 into this, not only for the campaign finance, but also 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:35.079 for the fact that he may have committed perjury the 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:38.120 last time he testified. Seems as if, you know, he 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:41.199 gave sort of a non denial denial when he when 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:45.000 he testified that and perjury. Would perjury be difficult to 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:48.280 get him on? Oh, you know, that's always a very 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:51.960 difficult one. And obviously this is operating in a political arena, 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:55.559 so you know, and the people that would have to 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:58.559 bring those cases, that case in a criminal court of 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:01.200 law again would be the Apartment of Justice. In this 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:05.120 Department of Justice does not seem so inclined, So you know, 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.640 it's out there. Lying to Congress should be a very 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:12.439 serious thing to do. Some people have, in fact, you know, 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:16.079 open found guilty and end up either with with criminal sentences. 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:19.120 But I think, look, I'm gonna say a word a 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.959 little bit, and I'm only saying this in a very 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:25.400 very small amount in defense of someone like to Joy. 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:29.840 And you know, here's a CEO type that's running a company. 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:34.080 And the reality is he probably is accurate and saying 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:37.959 he has no clue himself. I'm not I'm not saying 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:41.119 this is in fact the case. But often with CEOs, 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:43.200 you know, they don't pay a lot of attention to 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:47.880 u the details and stuff. Sometimes they do, and like 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:50.000 in the case of Charles Keating, he was he was 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:54.319 directing all the Keating Five activities, so he knew exactly 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:57.480 what was going on. But you know, in the case 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.280 of someone likes the joy, you would have us to 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:03.320 be able to demonstrate and perhaps there is the evidence 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:06.880 to show that he personally kind of was involved in 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:10.040 the e effort. He says he wasn't, and there wasn't 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:12.560 a kind of an email trail or a whistle blower 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:17.240 that could say yes, Mr de Joy himself was involved 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:20.880 in this. I wouldn't be shocked to find out that 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:24.040 he didn't know, because a lot of you know, business 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:27.640 types don't think they can be bothered. The answer of 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:32.040 that is always he should know, right And in this case, 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:34.720 we'll see if there is a record that shows he 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:38.280 personally was involved. And you know, with me, some of 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:41.000 these decisions, so that's a matter of again, that's a 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:44.640 matter of fact that a thorough investigation could actually determine 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.000 that would be left to the state of North Carolina. Then, 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:51.840 based on the information so far public, it looks like 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:54.800 most of this activity so far has been beyond the 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:58.720 statute of five year statute of limitations. Now there's a 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:02.360 separate question whether or not he remains a Postmaster general. 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:06.680 That's a different question. It's not legal but political. Thanks 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:09.680 so much for being on the show, Meredith. That's Mareth McGee, 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:15.760 Executive director of Issue One. Census has been a legal 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.920 mine field, with one trip to the Supreme Court over 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:21.719 the edition of a citizenship question and with more than 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:26.880 four cases now pending against the Trump administration over the census. Now, 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:30.120 a federal judge in California has ordered the Census Bureau 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:34.680 to stop winding down operations until hearing next week. Joining 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:37.720 me is Leon Fresco, a partner at Hollandon Knight, tell 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:41.959 us about Judge Lucy Coe's order. So Judge Lucy Co 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:46.280 issued a temporary injunction this weekend. She's in the Northern 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:49.920 District of California, and there's two aspects of the census case. 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:53.440 So this aspect is called the winding down aspect. She 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.960 said that the winding down aspect of the census case, 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:02.480 which means that the government wanted to stop counting the 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.920 amount of people who hadn't applied for the census, already 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:09.360 using the online and other methods to enter the census. 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:14.199 They were supposed to stop on October, and instead it 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:16.960 was stopping on September thirty if they got moved up 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:20.560 a month, and in fact, people were already getting fired 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:23.880 by the Census Bureau and they were already getting wound down. 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:27.840 So the court judge co eatued a temporary restraining order 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:31.760 saying stopped doing that, stop firing people, stop winding this down, 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:36.800 and continue with whoever you have on staff counting people 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:40.840 who haven't been responsive to the census like you were 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:43.720 intending to do, which was going to be a deadline 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:48.880 of October to the October thirtieth deadline come about because 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:52.720 of COVID nineteen was the end of September, the original deadline. 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:57.120 It was changed and then changed back correct. What actually 0:14:57.160 --> 0:14:59.880 happened was the original deadline was at the end of April, 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.480 and because of COVID nineteen, it got moved to October. 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:08.560 So everybody adjusted all their operations to moving it until October, 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:11.760 and then suddenly in the middle of the summer in August, 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:16.040 the Census Bureau said, no, we're actually changing this again 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:19.480 and we're winding this down and we're ending this on September. 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:22.840 But then they started winding it down immediately if they 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:27.480 started firing people immediately, and so that was going to 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:31.560 diminish the resources available to actually count people who hadn't 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:34.520 responded to the census. And so the nature of these 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:39.000 claims are, well, that's our Venturian capricius for you to say, 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:42.800 because of COVID nineteen, we needed this extra time until October, 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:45.040 and now suddenly we don't need it. And there was 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:48.560 no good reason given it wasn't like there were certain 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.600 metrics of counting them had been met. They simply just 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:55.480 wound back the date. Is there any evidence as to 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:59.720 why they wound that the date? Did an order come 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:04.040 from above? Well, so they're One of the interesting aspects 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:07.480 of the case is there's a whistle blower who talked 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.400 to the court, and the court said that they have 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:13.120 to go through a federal whistle blower process. So that's 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:16.080 interesting if we find out out at some point later 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:19.480 what will happen with regards to that whistle blower. But 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:24.360 in the meantime, the other issue that's very fascinating is 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:29.480 that the only reason that they give is that the 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:34.440 administration came to some determination that the census part couldn't 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:40.800 be completed by December, which was what they believe is 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:44.560 their satutory deadlines to produce a portionment count. They said, 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:48.640 there's no way to do this if we collect past September, 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:54.880 and that wasn't something they were uncomfortable with when they 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:58.520 made these extension of these deadlines, So it's unclear why 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:02.160 they're suddenly uncomfortable with it now. And Judge co also 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:08.240 pointed out some conflicting statements made by a top SENUS official. Yes, correct, 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:12.679 there were certainly serious questions there about the accuracy of 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:17.119 the census data that were generated by the declaration that 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:21.280 individual made. Albert Fontano, who was the associate director for 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:26.240 the Senial Census Program. He had originally declared that the 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:29.000 lack of field staff would be a barrier and there 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:31.439 wasn't a way to do this. But at the time, 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:35.679 there was a May twenty six webinar organized by the 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:40.359 National Congress of American Indians where they've already said, we 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:42.879 passed the point where we could even meet the current 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:47.160 legislative requirement of December thirty one, we can't do that anymore. 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:49.960 That was sim Olsen, the head of the field operations 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:54.000 for Census, and so because he had said that, it 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:57.160 may the idea that now we have to get this 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:00.920 done by December thirty one, there's a way that that's 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:03.199 already been said that I was going to be inaccurate. 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:05.520 So the one reason given that we have to meet 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:10.119 in December thirty first deadline isn't a valid reason because 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:12.359 I was already known in May that we weren't going 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:14.760 to be able to meet that deadline. So is the 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:19.680 challenge to the Trump administration not counting undocumented immigrants part 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.840 of this lawsuit. Well, so there's two separate lasses that 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:25.720 those they're going on in parallel, and one of the 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:28.960 lawsuits is about this issue of whether you can count 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:33.119 undocumented individuals in the census. But the real basis for 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:36.199 these plains that are being made at the moment in 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:40.080 these lawsuits is that it was just arbitrary and capriitus 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:43.760 to have a deadline, change the deadline, and then change 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:46.879 it backward again because people had developed enough of a 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:50.000 reliance interest in these deadlines that that shouldn't have been 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:52.000 done at that point. Be I mean, if it's being 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:55.480 made as a sort of sub textual claim that yes, 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:58.040 there might be this intense that the bigger cities which 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.760 had more of these individuals don't get counted. Experts have 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:05.800 warned that shortcuts would lead to inaccurate census counts, missing 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:10.080 the poor, the young, and minority groups. Traditionally the hardest account. 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:14.480 Is there any evidence that that's true? Well, I think 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:19.040 everybody who's in general fearful and hiding from law enforcement 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:22.960 in general because they know that at the moment to 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:27.600 their advantage that they be seeing less than as opposed 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:31.040 to be seen more will be harder to count. And 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:36.120 so the complication than becomes if you're intensive to actually 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:40.640 count every human being in the in the United States 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:44.720 in order to apportion this properly, the less resources you're 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:48.480 putting towards that goal, you're gonna get more people who 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:51.680 want to be counted as less people who don't want 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:55.400 to be counted. And so that would have some natural 0:19:55.480 --> 0:20:00.399 relationship to I'm documented individuals. That is the third count 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:04.040 of the complaints, That is done by the City of 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:07.040 Los Angeles, the County of Los Angeles, and others filing 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:10.680 this lawsuits, they're saying it is a pretext to exclude 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:16.239 a documented forces from the apportionment count. But again, you 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:19.919 know this, this wasn't the basis so far for the 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:25.760 courts temporary injunctions. Of the basis was that the justification 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:29.520 given by the government doesn't match what they said previously, 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:32.800 and because there was a deadline given in the past, 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:35.440 they haven't given a good reason why they would change 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:39.840 the deadline against. So what happens if the Census Bureau 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:45.520 is not able to complete the census by December thirty one? Well, 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:49.919 I think the concern that this administration would have is 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:55.000 that if it ran into late January, that if the 0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:59.800 president President drump was defeated, that Joe Biden could actually 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:04.080 and said the count as their belief was, this count 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:09.640 would be more this advantageous to Republicans, I suppose, than 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:12.919 the count that this president would set. That's sort of 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:16.960 the theory that's undergirding these lawsuits is that this would 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:22.000 be the only possible as some explanation that is clear 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:26.800 and provable. This explanation is the only explanation that that 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:29.400 they can surmise for why all of this is happening. 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:33.600 And there was a request to the Senate to extend 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:38.360 the deadline beyond December one, and they never took that up. Correct, 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:40.200 And that's one of the issues that's actually going to 0:21:40.280 --> 0:21:43.920 be under debate right now during this period, right before 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:49.320 the Continuing Resolution needs to pass on September. And there 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:53.080 is some beliefs that there is some bipartisan consent this 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:56.320 here to move defenses because you know, there are states 0:21:56.359 --> 0:21:59.960 like Texas also that are large states that want everybody 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:03.359 COUNTID in Texas, that are more read you know, and 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:07.240 say things with Florida than just states like California or 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:10.120 New York. So it will be interesting to see if 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:13.480 the Congress is part of the Continuing Resolution actually ends 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:17.199 up expending these deadlines but not needing these lawsuits. So 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:20.080 tell us more about the second aspect of these lawsuits 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:23.959 and where that stands right well. The second aspect is 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:27.439 the issue that has now been argued in oral argument 0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:30.400 in New York and will be argued soon in California, 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:34.800 which is can you actually include undocumented immigrants from the census. 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:39.680 And so that's the issue that is being argued, and 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:43.119 there's all kinds of peripheral issues there about whether you 0:22:43.160 --> 0:22:46.160 have to wait to do that until after the show 0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:50.399 that you've been damaged by not counting people, or whether 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:53.960 you can do it now preemptively. But it appears as 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:56.800 the Second Circuit, where they have a three juch panel 0:22:56.840 --> 0:22:59.600 with some district court and some second Circuit and that 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:03.600 would go directly to the Supreme Court if they actually 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:09.600 banned the memo that the President wrote. That panel seems 0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:14.120 to have some skepticism of the government's arguments here, and 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:18.000 they seem to think that this policy is wrong to 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:21.879 say that you can't count undocumented individuals, and that the 0:23:21.960 --> 0:23:25.359 timing is fine now at the moment to be able 0:23:25.359 --> 0:23:27.280 to make this claim. You don't have to wait until 0:23:27.400 --> 0:23:31.280 later to show that you were harmed by the accounts 0:23:31.320 --> 0:23:35.240 that were subsequently done. And so because of that, I 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:38.959 can foresee that kept getting to the Supreme Court relatively quickly. 0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:43.160 Who has the stronger argument at the Second Circuit as 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:48.119 to whether or not you can count undocumented immigrants. Well, 0:23:48.240 --> 0:23:52.199 it seems that if the Second Circuit panel accepted the 0:23:52.359 --> 0:23:56.679 argument that it would be illegal and unconstitutional not to 0:23:56.800 --> 0:24:01.360 count undocumented immigrants from the census have to see. They 0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:03.919 seem to be having some struggle perhaps with is this 0:24:04.040 --> 0:24:06.760 the right time to make that argument, or do you 0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:09.639 make it after you see the formula and after you 0:24:09.640 --> 0:24:12.720 see the counts so that you can better debate what 0:24:12.960 --> 0:24:16.199 was actually counted or not. But it seems like they 0:24:16.280 --> 0:24:19.320 were convinced in that argument, although we need to see 0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:22.960 the order to see that at the end of the day, 0:24:23.600 --> 0:24:27.760 the the challenge could occur now and that there is 0:24:27.760 --> 0:24:30.679 an unlimited power on the President to determine how to 0:24:30.720 --> 0:24:35.880 apportion the districts. And so it seems likely that we're 0:24:35.880 --> 0:24:37.600 going to be getting an order in the next week 0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:41.560 or two that says that this memo is illegal, and 0:24:41.600 --> 0:24:44.480 then that would be challenge to the Supreme Court. So now, 0:24:44.520 --> 0:24:47.840 remind us the Supreme Court has already ruled on the 0:24:47.880 --> 0:24:51.960 census once via five to four vote. Remind us what 0:24:52.480 --> 0:24:56.320 was decided then, right, the Supreme Court at that point 0:24:56.760 --> 0:25:01.000 invalidated the process and a five four decision by which 0:25:01.119 --> 0:25:05.920 the Census Bureau tried to ask a citizenship question in 0:25:05.960 --> 0:25:09.000 the census because they said that that process was arbitrary 0:25:09.040 --> 0:25:12.080 and capricius and didn't follow the process by which you 0:25:12.080 --> 0:25:16.160 would insert such a question in the census. They didn't say. 0:25:16.320 --> 0:25:20.600