Speaker 1: Episode two thirty Negotiating Medical Debt with Dr Virgie Bright Ellington.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast, where you'll learn to
Speaker 1: save money, embrace simplicity, rights, and liberate your life. Here
Speaker 1: your host Jen and Jill. Welcome to the Frugal Friends Podcast.
Speaker 1: My name is Jen, my name is Jill, and I
Speaker 1: am so excited about this one. I have always wanted
Speaker 1: to talk about medical debt, but never I am not
Speaker 1: an expert in it, and it's so hard to find
Speaker 1: an expert into it. So when Dr Virgie reached out
Speaker 1: to us, I was elated. Oh, I'm so excited. We
Speaker 1: say we're excited about every interview, and that's not wrong.
Speaker 1: We're not lying, we are, but this one is over
Speaker 1: the moon for men many many reasons, and we are
Speaker 1: already anticipating this is going to be a fan faive
Speaker 1: because it's something that we many of us, have dealt with,
Speaker 1: our family members have dealt with, and unsure of what
Speaker 1: to do. There's so much red tape and systems you
Speaker 1: have to be aware of, and just being equipped with
Speaker 1: knowledge can be so so helpful, and from an expert,
Speaker 1: I just cannot wait to get into this and share
Speaker 1: this with our community. Yeah, this is when everyone should
Speaker 1: listen to. Tell your wife, tell your kids, tell your neighbor,
Speaker 1: and yeah, start knocking on doors, you know, spread this message,
Speaker 1: spread the message. This episode is brought to us also
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Speaker 1: I had my mom do it. I did that for
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Speaker 1: she had other things to do. So yeah, uh so,
Speaker 1: if you want to queue up a few other episodes
Speaker 1: after this one and so these are old episodes, y'all.
Speaker 1: So episode of forty five negotiating Tips for lowering bills
Speaker 1: uh and episode twelve how to save money on healthcare.
Speaker 1: So and there we talked about some like health insurance,
Speaker 1: healthcare sharing, preventative care. But we don't talk about this
Speaker 1: a lot because we don't have a lot of experience
Speaker 1: negotiating metal medical debt. I was able to negotiate my
Speaker 1: by some pregnancy medical costs, and so it is so
Speaker 1: easy to do. You just have to know what to
Speaker 1: say and how to say it, and you have to
Speaker 1: know what to look for. But it's really so overwhelming
Speaker 1: and so dr Virgie bry Ellington. She is an internal
Speaker 1: medicine physician and billing expert. She's a patient advocate, practiced
Speaker 1: more than twenty years in primary care and psychiatric care,
Speaker 1: and she has been a health insurance executive and so
Speaker 1: now she helps patients understand complex medical procedures, how to
Speaker 1: communicate effectively with health care providers and avoid the financial
Speaker 1: devastation that comes from crushing medical bills. She's the author
Speaker 1: of the What Your Doctor Wants You to Know series,
Speaker 1: and she's a wealth of information, what an amazing human being,
Speaker 1: And here we have her. So enough of us, let's
Speaker 1: get to Dr Virgie. Dr Virgie, Welcome to the Frugal
Speaker 1: Friends podcast. It is a honor and pleasure to have
Speaker 1: you on. Yeah what, ladies, It is my honor and pleasure.
Speaker 1: And I've been following you guys for a few years.
Speaker 1: I've been on your list Serve and I'm trying to
Speaker 1: think of how many years has been, but I know
Speaker 1: it was like way before the pandemic. So when I
Speaker 1: saw you guys have a podcast, I'm like, Hey, the
Speaker 1: world is small, this is awesome. Life is good. So
Speaker 1: we're just fanning on each other, but mostly we are
Speaker 1: here to highlight you, Dr Virgie, your knowledge and experience
Speaker 1: and what you have to share with our listeners today.
Speaker 1: So thanks for being here and sharing what you know.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, so let's
Speaker 1: dive in. You are an expert on medical billing and
Speaker 1: medical debts, so I know the first thing people will
Speaker 1: usually get is a surprise charge on their bills. That's
Speaker 1: happened so often. How should people handle surprise charges on
Speaker 1: their medical bills? So a surprise charge, we call surprise
Speaker 1: billing is actually a formal description. There's an actual The
Speaker 1: term surprise bill or surprise billing refers an actuality to
Speaker 1: cases in which you have insurance and you go to
Speaker 1: get care at a facility and maybe you had the
Speaker 1: option it was an elective thing and you had a
Speaker 1: knee surgery had planned, or unfortunately, if you had an
Speaker 1: emergency and you go to a facility and you know
Speaker 1: that they take your insurance when you don't have any
Speaker 1: choice of the physicians that are involved with your care.
Speaker 1: Physicians that you have no choice in choosing, like the
Speaker 1: e er doc, the nithesiologist, the radiologist who reads the
Speaker 1: X ray of your broken to determine if your bonus broken.
Speaker 1: If you have the elective surgery, they take tissue, they
Speaker 1: send it off, anything that's taken from the human body,
Speaker 1: they'll send it off to pathology for a position to
Speaker 1: look at it under the microscope to make sure it's
Speaker 1: not it's always benign meaning non cancer as versus they
Speaker 1: don't see any cancer cells. Those are all folks. Those
Speaker 1: are all physicians that you don't have any choice in picking.
Speaker 1: And if they are out of network, that means that
Speaker 1: they'll send you a bill for their whole full retail
Speaker 1: price and you're stuck with it. So this has been
Speaker 1: an issue because, um, there are business models. There are
Speaker 1: there's private equity. There are corporations whose business model is
Speaker 1: to say, Okay, we're gonna hire all these docs who
Speaker 1: you have no choice in picking when you go to
Speaker 1: the hospital or you need care, and we're going to
Speaker 1: charge some full price, which is often tens and tens
Speaker 1: and and I can't explain how outrageous the numbers are
Speaker 1: when they don't take insurance, They take no insurances. That's
Speaker 1: their business model. And you go in thinking that you've
Speaker 1: done all of your research to make sure that you're
Speaker 1: in network with this facility. But they hire physicians who
Speaker 1: are not That results in a surprise bill. So how
Speaker 1: do we when we do we have any power over that,
Speaker 1: either before or after. Yep. The great news is as
Speaker 1: of January one of this year of bill was passed.
Speaker 1: It's now federal law where if you have insurance and
Speaker 1: you go to an in network provider and you are
Speaker 1: given sent a bill by other physicians that are involved
Speaker 1: with your care who do not accept your insurance, they
Speaker 1: have to negotiate directly with the insurance company to work
Speaker 1: out a payment. You know, workout is it going to
Speaker 1: be the in network rate that they usually pay, are
Speaker 1: they're gonna pay a little bit of a premium, whatever
Speaker 1: it is. The patient is out of the middle. So
Speaker 1: until now, until January one of this year, there are
Speaker 1: a few states that had you know bills were in
Speaker 1: that state that you could not get a surprise bill. Uh, well,
Speaker 1: it was illegal in that state to charge patients who
Speaker 1: um you or if they're out of network, if you
Speaker 1: charge them out of network um prices. But now it's
Speaker 1: a federal law. So that's how you protect yourself. You
Speaker 1: make sure that if you've gotten a bill from you
Speaker 1: go to get care and you've gotten a bill where
Speaker 1: it says, you know what, we're not in network with
Speaker 1: your provider, well, um, with your insurance rather, well, not
Speaker 1: my problem anymore. As a January one, you're going to
Speaker 1: put them in touch. Then they know this, The providers
Speaker 1: know this. They have to deal with your insurance directly
Speaker 1: and leave the patient out instead of having the patient
Speaker 1: holding the bag, which has been the case for eons
Speaker 1: until now. So if you get that bill, if we
Speaker 1: get that bill in the mail and we realize this,
Speaker 1: we've now listened to Dr Verjee and we know a
Speaker 1: bill has passed and we're not responsible for this, would
Speaker 1: that just be us minding the provider of that law.
Speaker 1: Please talk to my insurance company. Yak to my insurance come,
Speaker 1: you know, and they say, talk to the hand, talk
Speaker 1: to my insurance company. I'm out, So you know, I
Speaker 1: I really like to use this as an opportunity to
Speaker 1: talk about there's a reason why. This is the reason
Speaker 1: why there's only one right way to pay a medical bill.
Speaker 1: And that's because usually, unfortunately, I would say nine times
Speaker 1: out of ten, medical care facility will send you a
Speaker 1: bill that's not a real bill. And they do that
Speaker 1: because they know it works. We panic, and we'll figure
Speaker 1: out how to pay this off. So I'm going to
Speaker 1: take you through the one right way to pay a
Speaker 1: medical bill. There's three steps, and in this process, um Jillian,
Speaker 1: we're going to say, Okay, you know what. By doing
Speaker 1: this process of the one right way of paying medical bill,
Speaker 1: going through the three steps, we're not going to get
Speaker 1: caught by any tricks like surprise billing. So it's the
Speaker 1: one right way to pay medical bill will protect you for,
Speaker 1: among other things, um, surprise billing. So the one thing
Speaker 1: you want to do when you get up any medical
Speaker 1: bill is to look to make sure that it's an
Speaker 1: accurate or itemized bill. And what I'm calling now a
Speaker 1: real bill. A real bill has what's called CPT codes.
Speaker 1: CPT codes are just like bar codes, and you go
Speaker 1: into a store. Every product has a bar code, right
Speaker 1: you take that product, you run it through the scanner,
Speaker 1: and it'll tell you. It'll identify, you know, some description
Speaker 1: of the product and the price that the facility is
Speaker 1: charging for that particular product. Same thing with CPT codes.
Speaker 1: Every single medical service in the United States has a
Speaker 1: CPT code. And I won't borry with what CPT stands for.
Speaker 1: There are people who work in the insurance company I
Speaker 1: know for years, and they can't remember what CBT and
Speaker 1: you know, it has a long name, you know, common
Speaker 1: procedural terminology, which is why we don't use what it's
Speaker 1: called CPT codes. And I was talking to a radio
Speaker 1: host a couple of months ago and he says, you
Speaker 1: know what we should call it. I can't pay this.
Speaker 1: That's a CPT anyway. So right, so you get a
Speaker 1: medical bill and you make sure it has CPT codes
Speaker 1: at the top. You'll see CPT at the top and
Speaker 1: under it. CPT codes are usually like a five digit
Speaker 1: number describing a service. So that's what you're gonna do.
Speaker 1: You're going to first step is call your provider and
Speaker 1: get a real bill. So what I've I've been talking
Speaker 1: about this and one of those things that's been plugging
Speaker 1: me this week, I'm realizing, you know, these bills that
Speaker 1: we often get that consumers, the American patient of public
Speaker 1: gets are just not bills. They're kind of like wishful thinking.
Speaker 1: They're like, oh, maybe they'll pay it if we send
Speaker 1: them this with no CPT codes and it has a
Speaker 1: description and that's it. You know, they think that it's
Speaker 1: a real bill. But it's not. So first step always
Speaker 1: called to make sure you get a real bill, which
Speaker 1: is UM an itemized bill basically fancy name for a
Speaker 1: bill with CPT codes, and that takes you to the
Speaker 1: second step. When you get that bill with CPT codes,
Speaker 1: you're going to take it and google the codes to
Speaker 1: make sure that each of the codes describes the service
Speaker 1: that you think you've got. Our services that you think
Speaker 1: you received during your stay or during your visit. Great,
Speaker 1: once you get those codes will come up as a
Speaker 1: description awesome, and you're making sure that that makes sense
Speaker 1: in terms of what you've got makause you're not getting
Speaker 1: double bill that kind of thing, or bill for something
Speaker 1: you know that you didn't get. And then you're going
Speaker 1: to take those codes and you're going to continue to google,
Speaker 1: but this time you're going to google what Medicare pays
Speaker 1: for each of those codes, for each of those services.
Speaker 1: So Medicare is federal government meant care health care, and
Speaker 1: CMS which stands for Centers for Medicaid and Medicare Services,
Speaker 1: has a standard list of things that they pay for
Speaker 1: each CPT code. Right. The thing is is that I
Speaker 1: consider Medicare the basic flat rate, So there are a
Speaker 1: lot of people who do this kind of work, meaning
Speaker 1: trying to help people with who are struggling with medical bills,
Speaker 1: educating the American public in terms of medical financial literacy.
Speaker 1: And they say, well, okay, we look this up, but
Speaker 1: we're going to agree to pay two times the Medicare rate,
Speaker 1: and that takes us down to step three. I disagree.
Speaker 1: I think start at Medicare started the Medicare price. That's
Speaker 1: the point where you're going to negotiate. Don't go straight
Speaker 1: to negotiation without doing the first two steps because you're
Speaker 1: being overcharged. Their retail rates are often three hundreds more
Speaker 1: than what Medica Care pays. And so when I say,
Speaker 1: you know what, I started the Medicare rate, When I
Speaker 1: say step three, that's the number you're gonna start when
Speaker 1: you call back the medical billing department or the patient
Speaker 1: accounts department of the facility and say, you know what,
Speaker 1: this is what I came for, These are the services
Speaker 1: I got, this is what I'm able to pay. I
Speaker 1: think this is fair from my research and the care
Speaker 1: that I received. Now, some folks likes I were saying, UM, thinks,
Speaker 1: you know, I think that two times the Medicare rate
Speaker 1: is a good place to start. And that's because if
Speaker 1: you call some of these facilities, you're going to get
Speaker 1: pushed back. And the general thought is the general pushback is, well,
Speaker 1: if everybody paid Medicare rates or paid the Medicare prices,
Speaker 1: we wouldn't be able to stay in business. We wouldn't
Speaker 1: be able to provide care to everyone. I'm not so
Speaker 1: sure about that, and even so, not my problem, not
Speaker 1: my problem. If I have a budget which takes me
Speaker 1: to step three, and you're going to call back the
Speaker 1: provider's office, building department, patient accoun office and ask for
Speaker 1: number one an interest free payment plan that fits your budget.
Speaker 1: And this is really important because people get upset when
Speaker 1: they think about how long it's going to take them
Speaker 1: to pay off a bill. They said, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: it's gonna take me five years, seven years, ten years,
Speaker 1: and so what right. So the reason why you make
Speaker 1: it you're gonna get probably pushed back when you call
Speaker 1: back the department billing to partner and say, hey, this
Speaker 1: is what I'm willing to pay. You know, I need
Speaker 1: an interest free payment plan. They're gonna say, you know, well,
Speaker 1: this is a dollar bill and you know you're paying
Speaker 1: us turn and fifty dollars a month. It's just going
Speaker 1: to take us forever to pay it off. Can you
Speaker 1: do you know? We just thiss just too that's just
Speaker 1: too little and this will take us too long to
Speaker 1: get paid. Um can you do three fifty? Uh? No,
Speaker 1: I can only do to fifty. And the reason why
Speaker 1: you want to stick with that is because if you
Speaker 1: may an agreement with the um care facility, it doesn't
Speaker 1: get reported to credit agencies, right, It's it's blind. It
Speaker 1: doesn't um impact your credit report at all, which is awesome.
Speaker 1: But if you agree to any payment plan and you
Speaker 1: can't make a payment, they will automatically really quickly, and
Speaker 1: surprise how fast they do it. They'll send it right
Speaker 1: to collections, to deck, they'll sell it to a debt
Speaker 1: collections for pennies on the dollar. So you may say, okay,
Speaker 1: well why wouldn't May, Why would they agree to take
Speaker 1: so little over a long period of time? And I say,
Speaker 1: the reasons why you want to stick with your budget
Speaker 1: when you're calling the facility and talking about the payment
Speaker 1: plan that you need is because, as they say, a
Speaker 1: little bit of something is better than all of nothing, right,
Speaker 1: they know it's cheaper to you know to take it,
Speaker 1: you know, instead of having to chase you potentially and
Speaker 1: or have to sell it if they have to chase
Speaker 1: you long enough for pennies on the dollar, you know,
Speaker 1: to a collections agency. So those are the three steps
Speaker 1: for the one right way to pay a medical bill.
Speaker 1: That's so hopeful. And at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: you have already gone through the first two steps where
Speaker 1: you are equipped with knowledge, You've been able to get
Speaker 1: rid of any bills or itemized line pieces that you
Speaker 1: are not actually obligated to pay, You've lowered the rate.
Speaker 1: And then if it is still too much for you
Speaker 1: to be able to pay outright that interest free portion.
Speaker 1: Of course, none of us like having those payments, but
Speaker 1: if it's interest free, that makes a big difference, especially
Speaker 1: as it concerns healthcare things that we need to stay alive.
Speaker 1: We're not just talking about some luxury item exactly. It's
Speaker 1: not consumer debt. And you know, the current UM administration
Speaker 1: is realizing, Hey, you know what, we need to treat
Speaker 1: it as such medical debt. Medical bills are not a choice.
Speaker 1: Student loans, at the end of the day, is a choice.
Speaker 1: But you know, none of us has to get here, right,
Speaker 1: None of us has to be born, and once we
Speaker 1: get here, we're living creatures, and we get sick, things happen,
Speaker 1: we have accidents, and so it's not consumer debt. And
Speaker 1: I'm glad that the administration is trying to teach folks that, hey,
Speaker 1: we need to treat medical bills differently than consumer bills.
Speaker 1: Medical debt different thing consumer debt well, and it carries
Speaker 1: so much anxiety because not only are you managing physical
Speaker 1: health problems, but also financial difficulties to depending on the
Speaker 1: amount of money that's owed and whether or not insurances
Speaker 1: covering it or you're able to pay. And so I
Speaker 1: think we've got a couple of layers here of just
Speaker 1: receiving a bill that might be overwhelming that we can't
Speaker 1: really pay, but then that can stack up to medical debt.
Speaker 1: As you're describ I've been here, and I know even
Speaker 1: before we got on you were even beginning to talk
Speaker 1: about preventative measures. So talking about preventative but as well
Speaker 1: as maybe even reactive, because sometimes we find ourselves there.
Speaker 1: What are some of your tips when we are deep
Speaker 1: into some medical debt? What can be done? One of
Speaker 1: the things you know, I I like to, you know,
Speaker 1: remind folks about is that you know it's not your fault,
Speaker 1: and and you think that, oh my gosh, it's scary,
Speaker 1: it's complicated. You know, I'm screwed. What am I gonna do?
Speaker 1: I'm going to have to declare bankruptcy. I can't pay
Speaker 1: this and many people have. So the first thing I
Speaker 1: tell folks is that it's not your fault, and yes,
Speaker 1: there are things you can do, so yes, go through.
Speaker 1: And we'll let me just say one more thing. The
Speaker 1: reason why we also panic is because an often panic
Speaker 1: in addition to all of this, is that this happens
Speaker 1: to us when we're at our most vulnerable, when we're sick,
Speaker 1: in pain, being scared, afraid, unable to work. You know,
Speaker 1: whether we have insurance or not, most of us get
Speaker 1: to our our insurance or employers. If we miss enough
Speaker 1: work because of the illness or the accident, we'll lose
Speaker 1: our job in there for our insurance. So that there's
Speaker 1: so multiple, many reasons why um folks in this country
Speaker 1: get taken advantage of by the system. This you know,
Speaker 1: uh healthcare industry in our country, for profit health care
Speaker 1: industry in our country. So what I tell people number
Speaker 1: one is to step back and if you're able to
Speaker 1: pull all of your bills, don't ignore the bills you
Speaker 1: know if you can be ahead of it and call
Speaker 1: them first, the billing department first, as I explain, and
Speaker 1: go back and ask for real bills, and a real
Speaker 1: bill has a CPT code. The other thing I tell
Speaker 1: folks is to make sure that you're not confusing a
Speaker 1: real bill with because you're not. You're not confusing a
Speaker 1: real bill with if you have insurance and explanation of
Speaker 1: benefits or an e O B. And I've gotten multiple
Speaker 1: calls and examples of focus that I got this bill
Speaker 1: from my insurance company. No, you're not going to get
Speaker 1: a bill from your insurance company. What you received is
Speaker 1: a notice of what they paid and or what they're
Speaker 1: saying they're not going to pay, and what you're going
Speaker 1: to be responsible for, and you're gonna have to deal
Speaker 1: with the provider yourself. So I make sure that I
Speaker 1: ask folks to pull out anything that says Usually it'll
Speaker 1: say it right across the front page and subsequent pages,
Speaker 1: this is not a bill. Those are e O B
Speaker 1: SR exclation of benefits. So pull that out and then
Speaker 1: pull out the actual bills that don't have that that's
Speaker 1: at the top, that's not from your insurance company. If
Speaker 1: you have insurance and call the provider asked for the
Speaker 1: real bill with CPT codes, and then if it's less
Speaker 1: than two I tell people this all the time, if
Speaker 1: it's less than six months out from the services that
Speaker 1: you received, you can will go back and apply for
Speaker 1: financial assistance and in some cases even Medicaid depending on
Speaker 1: the state that you're in, you can go back and
Speaker 1: apply for medicator if your income is low enough sitting
Speaker 1: for bills that are six months less than six months old.
Speaker 1: So that's one option. Often we're kind of in between
Speaker 1: that we're not at the point where we have to say, Okay,
Speaker 1: you know what, I have zero income, I need to
Speaker 1: consider applying for Medicaid. Most of us are in the
Speaker 1: position where we've gone to a health care facility that
Speaker 1: is nonprofit. Most of the majority of health care facilities,
Speaker 1: hospital medical systems in this country, we are nonprofit. And
Speaker 1: I stopped calling it nonprofit. I call it tax exempt
Speaker 1: because they really have a lot of surplus. Let's put
Speaker 1: it that way, right, exactly right, So six of hospitals
Speaker 1: in the United States are tax exempt a k A.
Speaker 1: Nonprofit and in exchange for the by federal law for
Speaker 1: tax exempt nonprofit status, they provide sliding scale income based
Speaker 1: discounts to the the the public and the community that
Speaker 1: they serve. So what this means is many bills that
Speaker 1: you get if you just go to them and say look,
Speaker 1: call up the office and say, look, this is the research.
Speaker 1: I got the real bill with CPT codes of research,
Speaker 1: and this is what I can afford to pay. And
Speaker 1: for how long you call them up and say, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, this is what I can do. You'd be
Speaker 1: surprised that although by law they're supposed to make it
Speaker 1: post it publicly, nonprofit facilities that of what the process
Speaker 1: is to apply for financial aids. Not a lot of
Speaker 1: people don't like that term financial aid, you know, but
Speaker 1: you know they think of it as charity care as
Speaker 1: different euphemisms, right, charity care, financial assistance, financial aid. It's
Speaker 1: all income based discounts. And if you have you be
Speaker 1: surprised at the high income you can have. If your
Speaker 1: bill is high enough, you may able to get it
Speaker 1: completely wipe off just based on your income. I've seen
Speaker 1: a bill as little as I think it was like dollars.
Speaker 1: I don't mean little, but compared to their income. The
Speaker 1: person have like a hundred and fifty thousand dollars gross
Speaker 1: income that they showed on you know, they're there, you're
Speaker 1: gonna be asked to show documents and things, um and
Speaker 1: based on their income. Uh. And the bill, the bill
Speaker 1: was so large in relationship to their income. The whole thing,
Speaker 1: the whole bill was wiped away. Now if you had
Speaker 1: not right, if you had not been aware that you
Speaker 1: have rights, as if you went to a non profit facility,
Speaker 1: tax exempt facility, yeah, you have, you have options. So
Speaker 1: just because the majority of health care facilities in our
Speaker 1: country are non profit, sixty five percent of them, this
Speaker 1: is an option. Now, someone brought something to my attention.
Speaker 1: They see that even for profit facilities have financial assistance programs.
Speaker 1: You know, if you don't ask, you don't get right.
Speaker 1: So always always ask. A few things are standing out
Speaker 1: to me and what you're describing here. First of all,
Speaker 1: knowing what you can pay. Of course, once you've realized
Speaker 1: what you are actually responsible for, because sometimes they might
Speaker 1: charge you for things you're not responsible for. But then
Speaker 1: once you figure out this is what I actually oh,
Speaker 1: going to them with a number, which is classic negotiation
Speaker 1: tip for any type of thing that we're trying to
Speaker 1: negotiate having that number, not just going and saying I
Speaker 1: don't know, what can you do and then going from there,
Speaker 1: but also recognizing that this is available to us, and
Speaker 1: there is no shame in pushing for lower rates because
Speaker 1: you might not actually have to pay that high rate,
Speaker 1: And why why would you if if you're not able
Speaker 1: to if the organization, the company, the hospital has ability
Speaker 1: to give it to you at a discounted rate. I
Speaker 1: think the thing that stands out to me is just
Speaker 1: the time and energy that all of this takes, the
Speaker 1: know how of going through the paperwork, of finding the
Speaker 1: phone numbers, of sitting on hold, of doing the research.
Speaker 1: And and it's worth it, and we've seen that it's
Speaker 1: worth it, but especially when you might be going through
Speaker 1: a time that is physically demanding or exhausting and you've
Speaker 1: got various medical concerns that I think that that's a
Speaker 1: it's a big deal and and I don't know if
Speaker 1: there's much that can be said or a magic wand
Speaker 1: that we can wave over that, but community hopefully someone
Speaker 1: to sit by your side as your going through all
Speaker 1: this paperwork. But yeah, there's there's a couple of liayers here. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The most difficult about this is that this happened to us.
Speaker 1: This is done to us, not by accident, just because
Speaker 1: they know they can get away with it, frankly, and
Speaker 1: in addition, they know they can get away with it
Speaker 1: more likely because it's when we're at our most vulnerable.
Speaker 1: You know, we're sick, retired, we're scared or in pain,
Speaker 1: we're grieving, you know, And and why do they do it? Well?
Speaker 1: It works, It works. I was talking actually with my
Speaker 1: husband who's um thirty five year law enforcement veteran, and
Speaker 1: you know, we talk about you know, laws, federal laws
Speaker 1: versus state laws, that kind of thing. And I said
Speaker 1: to him, I said, you know what, I've been going
Speaker 1: through a lot of medical bill mistakes and going through
Speaker 1: you know, looking at bills and saying, well, this is
Speaker 1: a mistake. And if you can imagine of every medical
Speaker 1: bill and generating this country has mistakes, and if you
Speaker 1: can imagine, they're not going to be in the favor
Speaker 1: of the patient, right, They're going to be in the
Speaker 1: favor of the provider and or the insurance company. I
Speaker 1: was talking to them and I said, you know, um,
Speaker 1: it just hit me, why should consumers patients be given
Speaker 1: bills that don't have CPT codes. If there is zero
Speaker 1: insurance company in this country that would ever ever even
Speaker 1: consider a bill submit it from the provider that doesn't
Speaker 1: have CPT codes. So why do they generate them and
Speaker 1: send them to the patient? Why do they sip? Why
Speaker 1: do they generate two different kinds of bills? One that's
Speaker 1: not a real bill. I call it a summary bill.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll call it a detailed summary bill. It doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: It doesn't have CPT codes. It's not a real bill.
Speaker 1: Why generate something separate that you just send the patients
Speaker 1: if it's not the same thing that you send the
Speaker 1: insurance companies, and insurance companies you always send c If
Speaker 1: you want to get paid as a provider, you're gonna
Speaker 1: send the insurance companies bills with CPT codes, right, So
Speaker 1: why do we generate Why are why to providers health
Speaker 1: care facilities generate bills that have no CPT codes to
Speaker 1: patients because it works, and because by law there's no
Speaker 1: law requiring them to do it. I thought, you know what,
Speaker 1: there needs to be a federal law too, and have
Speaker 1: the same bill that is sent to to insurance companies
Speaker 1: sent to the patient, just so there's no confusion, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And my husband's like, oh, good luck with that. Virgin
Speaker 1: know the political climb. He says, you may be able
Speaker 1: to do it state by state. He says, you can
Speaker 1: start somewhere. But I love these other conversations you're having.
Speaker 1: Go forward for another day, Go ahead and try it
Speaker 1: years down the road. You know, something else to work
Speaker 1: on in my spare time, right right. But it is
Speaker 1: smart to realize these things because as consumers, we don't know.
Speaker 1: We don't see a ton of bills. Like, if you
Speaker 1: don't work in the healthcare industry, you have no idea
Speaker 1: you know that what CPT codes are. The huge book
Speaker 1: full of CPT code, It's like there's so many of them.
Speaker 1: There's three exactly, there's more than three hundred thousand CPT codes.
Speaker 1: And you don't have to memory. You don't have to
Speaker 1: know any of them. You just have to know where
Speaker 1: to find it. You know, it's not you know how
Speaker 1: does it goes? Not what you know? It's you know
Speaker 1: who you know? Right well? You know, dr Google, You'll
Speaker 1: take up CPT code, you'll google it. You don't need
Speaker 1: to remember, you don't need to memorize any of them.
Speaker 1: So I use the analogy jin of going to a
Speaker 1: car mechanic. Right, so your car doesn't work, is not
Speaker 1: doing something is supposed to do, you take it to
Speaker 1: the mechanic. Well, you don't have to know fancy mechanic
Speaker 1: words and how the car runs and that kind of
Speaker 1: thing to know number one, what you're able to pay
Speaker 1: for it. Right, you don't need to know fancy medical
Speaker 1: words and CPT codes. You don't have to have them
Speaker 1: memorized and know what they are to be able to
Speaker 1: understand what fits in your budget when you have to
Speaker 1: pay for your care. I know, I can go to
Speaker 1: a car dealership and be like, I can't afford a
Speaker 1: car that's more than twenty dollars, and they will do
Speaker 1: you know, they will tell me what I need to
Speaker 1: compromise on to stay in my budget. And it's just
Speaker 1: not the same with healthcare exactly. That's you know, Jen,
Speaker 1: that's the exact that's the exact analogy I use. I say,
Speaker 1: you know what, when you go to a car dealership,
Speaker 1: we know personal financial literacy. We know that if you're
Speaker 1: buying a new car, old car, you are expected to
Speaker 1: negotiate there's just basic things you're supposed to know, and
Speaker 1: you don't think that well. I don't know anything about
Speaker 1: how cars work. I don't know any fancy car terms.
Speaker 1: But I know that I want like a big car
Speaker 1: with a big engine. So I know I want a
Speaker 1: V eight. We don't. You don't have to know how
Speaker 1: the v A works and all the little fancy things
Speaker 1: connected to it to know how much you can afford
Speaker 1: to pay to stay in your budget, to stay in
Speaker 1: your spending plan for you and your family. Some of
Speaker 1: us just want good cup holders, that's all I may.
Speaker 1: You know what I had. I didn't want to, but
Speaker 1: I had to buy a new car. Um My, my baby,
Speaker 1: my favorite Bella. It was diagnosed with the terminal disease.
Speaker 1: So I had to let her go. So I had
Speaker 1: to get a replaced when I call her Bella junr.
Speaker 1: So when I was checking out Bella Junior at the dealership,
Speaker 1: the guy was like hey and showing me all the
Speaker 1: features everything he says, and it has a sunglass holder
Speaker 1: for your sunglasses. I was like, so done. I kept
Speaker 1: playing with this is a little things. I'm with you
Speaker 1: jillion uh. So say somebody has a medical debt that's
Speaker 1: been it's been longer than six months, and you know
Speaker 1: they've already sent it off to collections. What is a
Speaker 1: person's move then, um? Should they? You know, it's on
Speaker 1: their credit report? How do they get it off their
Speaker 1: credit report? How do they deal with it? What's the
Speaker 1: next what's the move there? Okay? So UM, this I'm
Speaker 1: going to talk about the old UM number. So as
Speaker 1: of July one, as of last week, is less than
Speaker 1: a week old. The three credit reporting agencies UM have
Speaker 1: to they have to wipe off, remove and not report
Speaker 1: any medical bill or debt that's been paid off that's
Speaker 1: already in collections, that was in collections. They can't report
Speaker 1: it anymore. Once you pay it off. It doesn't stay
Speaker 1: on for seven years like other consumer debt. It gets
Speaker 1: wiped off as soon as you pay it off. The
Speaker 1: other thing is is that the facilities have to wait
Speaker 1: now twelve months instead of six months before reporting it
Speaker 1: to collections or selling it to collections. So that's awesome news.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to remind us of. You know, this
Speaker 1: is something that's new. Uh yeah, yeah, good stuff. Right.
Speaker 1: So So this next thing to answer your question, Jen
Speaker 1: refers to prior to any bills that m came up
Speaker 1: before July one, before last week. So what you would
Speaker 1: do is you really want to call and make sure
Speaker 1: that you owe that. UM put me back up if
Speaker 1: they call you. When they call you say hey, you
Speaker 1: owe this, it's in collections. You want to make sure
Speaker 1: you really owe it. So they have to prove by law.
Speaker 1: There's a federal law that's been in effects since the
Speaker 1: late seventies. It's called the Fair Debt Practices Fair Debt
Speaker 1: Collection Practices Act that says that if you get called
Speaker 1: by a debt collector, they have to show send you
Speaker 1: documentation that you signed for the service or product. So
Speaker 1: you're gonna have to You're gonna have to go just
Speaker 1: o g on them, just old school and say hey,
Speaker 1: look sure I don't know anything about that. You need
Speaker 1: to send that to me in writing. Show me my
Speaker 1: signature where I agreed to pay for this, that I
Speaker 1: received the service, Show me that. So if they don't
Speaker 1: show you that, they don't send it to you in writing,
Speaker 1: you don't know it. The second thing is okay, So
Speaker 1: let's say they send it to you and you owe it.
Speaker 1: There are credit repair agencies that say, you know what,
Speaker 1: you're better off just working with let me back up,
Speaker 1: their consumer journalists and folks that you know have experience
Speaker 1: in doing this work in consumer debt, say, you know what,
Speaker 1: instead of paying it off with the debt collector, just
Speaker 1: work with a credit repair service business company because your
Speaker 1: credit has already been beaned. So they suggest, you know what,
Speaker 1: maybe even want to pay it off because it's already
Speaker 1: hit your report, your credit report and ending your your
Speaker 1: credit number, UM, your FICO score. So some people suggest
Speaker 1: doing that UM. Others say, you know what, work out
Speaker 1: a payment plan, you negotiate with them, and you know
Speaker 1: they bought it for pennies, so you know they're going
Speaker 1: to get a little bit of something. And again, a
Speaker 1: little bit of something is better than nothing. If you
Speaker 1: found out you did, you went through the steps, you
Speaker 1: found out you did owe it, you really if you can,
Speaker 1: if you can, this is more difficult to do to
Speaker 1: get the real bill with your signature with CPT codes
Speaker 1: that that's ideal. But if they have a signature from
Speaker 1: you and it looks like okay, yes this documentation I
Speaker 1: signed for these medical these care services. Um, if you can,
Speaker 1: I go back to step three, applying the three steps again.
Speaker 1: If they can't give you CPT codes. Then you know
Speaker 1: with the you know the documentation that they have that
Speaker 1: you think that you really do owe you receive those services.
Speaker 1: Take it down step two, What the services you received,
Speaker 1: what prices? Medicare pays for it or you can go
Speaker 1: up to two times Medicare rate. If you're so implying
Speaker 1: to start there with your step three negotiation, say okay,
Speaker 1: I'm able to do this interest free. He's they're already
Speaker 1: ding my credit interest free payment plan. And it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter how long it takes you stay in your budget.
Speaker 1: Don't let them wipe out your Frankly, you know Americans
Speaker 1: want to We love our nurses and we appreciate our dots.
Speaker 1: You know, they save they can save our lives, and
Speaker 1: we're grateful. But just because the facility and or the
Speaker 1: providers saved your life doesn't mean that you should destroy
Speaker 1: your financial life and give up your life to pay them. Right,
Speaker 1: So don't give up your don't compromise or risk your
Speaker 1: ability to get to work. The roof over your head.
Speaker 1: So make sure you can make your mortgage. You have
Speaker 1: a budget, your spending plan that includes your budget, I
Speaker 1: mean your mortgage or your rent, your car payment, your
Speaker 1: ability to get back and forth to work. Medical bills
Speaker 1: come last. Frankly, you've got to make sure that you
Speaker 1: stay with your ability to stay healthy. And if you're
Speaker 1: financially stressed, you're gonna you're not going to stay healthy.
Speaker 1: So protect your ability to keep a roof over your head,
Speaker 1: your ability to get to and from work. Pay those
Speaker 1: bills first, and then work out something that you can
Speaker 1: cover those. Um that medical debt collections, saying that you owe,
Speaker 1: but some people say, if you've already gotten, if it's
Speaker 1: already gone to collections, it's already danged your credit score.
Speaker 1: Consider that. I'm not an expert in this and I'm
Speaker 1: not suggesting one or another, but some folks say, once
Speaker 1: it's gone to debt collectors, consider working with a credit
Speaker 1: repair agency or business company. Just yeah, definitely, if you're
Speaker 1: going to go that route, make sure it's a not
Speaker 1: not for profit, like yeah, oh that's yeah, big, thank
Speaker 1: you for bringing that up. That's that's important. So I've
Speaker 1: heard and I've I've experienced getting like a payin full discount.
Speaker 1: Do you recommend the interest free payment plan over possibly
Speaker 1: getting a painfull discount for either a bill or a debt.
Speaker 1: That's up to you once only only only only after
Speaker 1: you've gone through the three steps. If you've done the
Speaker 1: first two steps, sure you know whatever works for you.
Speaker 1: So yeah, okay, I've done the three steps. First step,
Speaker 1: I got the CPT codes describing the services that I received.
Speaker 1: Number two, I took those codes and found out what
Speaker 1: Medicare pays for those services. And so this is a
Speaker 1: fair price. So you go to three. Okay, this is
Speaker 1: what I'm willing to pay. So let's say that, UM,
Speaker 1: I guess sent a bill and this is not unusual.
Speaker 1: You've got sent a bill for ten thousand dollars, and
Speaker 1: you worked out the numbers, you know, did the three steps,
Speaker 1: the first two steps, and you googled up actually Medicare pays,
Speaker 1: you know, three thousand dollars for these services. Well you
Speaker 1: call them back and you say, you know what, if
Speaker 1: I pay you in full three thousand, will you take it?
Speaker 1: This is what Medicare pays. Will you take it? If
Speaker 1: you don't ask, you don't get And then if you
Speaker 1: believe that that's what um, you've done the research, meaning
Speaker 1: you googled the CPT codes and what Medicare pays for them.
Speaker 1: Then and you believe that the actual fair number is
Speaker 1: three thousand dollars. Say, look, this is all I'm willing
Speaker 1: to pay, take it or leave it, and you know
Speaker 1: you'll give me a semi percent discount if I pay
Speaker 1: you in full. Now. Yeah, for someone at that step
Speaker 1: two of comparing to Medicare prices, where can they go
Speaker 1: to find that information? To go back to the car illustrations,
Speaker 1: they're like, has their blue book? Actually there is a
Speaker 1: health care blue book. You can start there, but that
Speaker 1: the health care blue book looks at the prices that
Speaker 1: are paid are charged and paid in that particular region
Speaker 1: where you live, and care does a little bit of
Speaker 1: tweaking based on regions, but not a whole lot. So
Speaker 1: I usually tell people to go to healthcare dot gov
Speaker 1: is the big one where I tell people they can
Speaker 1: start their search for the actual prices that Medicare pays
Speaker 1: for certain services CPT codes services. Yeah, so that's where
Speaker 1: having that code comes in hand. Hey, that so that's
Speaker 1: why step one call them. You know, the first step
Speaker 1: is easy, just a phone call. Yeah, you know you're
Speaker 1: gonna be on hold. You know, Well you're in front
Speaker 1: of the TV. Just put the TV on mute and
Speaker 1: a commercial and call, you know, just and then watch
Speaker 1: and then when they come and they pick up, you know,
Speaker 1: ten minutes later, fift twenty minutes later, however long it is.
Speaker 1: You can put your TV on mute and talk to
Speaker 1: them and say, I need a real bill of CPT codes.
Speaker 1: M H nice, Yeah, you know what else I need?
Speaker 1: Every week it's it's on the same level as this
Speaker 1: conversation the week. That's right, it's time for the best
Speaker 1: minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby was born
Speaker 1: and his name is William. Maybe you paid off your mortgage,
Speaker 1: maybe your car died, and you're happy to not have
Speaker 1: to pay that bill anymore. Tough bills, Buffalo bills, Bill Clinton,
Speaker 1: this is the bill of the week, Dr Virgie. Every
Speaker 1: week we invite our listeners and our guests to share
Speaker 1: with us their bill of the week, and we, as
Speaker 1: a billing expert, we are very excited to hear what
Speaker 1: your bill is for the week. So my bill, actually
Speaker 1: I talk about it in my book How to Crush
Speaker 1: Medical Debt, or I call it just a crush medical
Speaker 1: debt what your doctor wants you out a crush medical debt,
Speaker 1: And I talk about it because it is a subset
Speaker 1: A great example of what we talked about at the
Speaker 1: beginning of our conversation, which is surprised bills. So surprised bills,
Speaker 1: as I said, is when you go to an end
Speaker 1: network provider and our hospital facility, but they have out
Speaker 1: of network dots taking care of you providing the service. Okay,
Speaker 1: so that's a subset of balanced billing. Balance billing is
Speaker 1: when you go to an end network provider, meaning they
Speaker 1: accept your insurance, and they send you a bill for
Speaker 1: their real call m RSP Right, as we're talking about
Speaker 1: cars full manufacturer retail sticker price, they send you a
Speaker 1: bill for the balance between what their retail their full
Speaker 1: price by laugh, so I don't cry. Really, um, they
Speaker 1: send you a bill for the provider send you a
Speaker 1: bill for their full price, even though they're a network
Speaker 1: of their provider. So let's say that, just to keep
Speaker 1: the math simple, say that I go get Care and
Speaker 1: the insurance pays ten dollars for this particular CPT code right,
Speaker 1: this particular service, but the providers full price is a
Speaker 1: hundred dollars. So instead of saying, oh, we're a network,
Speaker 1: we've agreed to accept whatever they pay for their members
Speaker 1: as payment. And full. We accept that ten dollars and
Speaker 1: it is what it is. Right, they send you a
Speaker 1: bill for the balance, which is ninety dollars. Right. That
Speaker 1: is balanced billing. So the reason why that's important is,
Speaker 1: and we talked about the surprise billing is a is
Speaker 1: a type of balanced billing. The reason why that's important
Speaker 1: is because we can imagine it's if it's just you know,
Speaker 1: a hundred dollars or two hundred, never say never put
Speaker 1: just in front of money. Right. If it's just you know,
Speaker 1: a hundred, two hundred dollars, okay, you know it's gonna
Speaker 1: you're not gonna be happy about it. But if it's
Speaker 1: thousands of dollars for the services, that that'll put you
Speaker 1: in bankruptcy land debt land really quick. Right. So anyway,
Speaker 1: so my medical bill mistake of the week is I
Speaker 1: went to a hospital for emergency surgery and I got
Speaker 1: a balance bill. They tried to balance bill me. Uh,
Speaker 1: they said, my I always laugh, I really I laughed.
Speaker 1: I don't cry. They sent me a bill, uh six
Speaker 1: months later that had one CPT code and the rest
Speaker 1: was like general you know, so it wasn't a real
Speaker 1: bill because it only had like one CPT code describing
Speaker 1: you know, inpatient day, surgery, all this stuff. Right, So
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, this is this is interesting, this is
Speaker 1: gonna be entertaining for me. So, um, they sent me
Speaker 1: a bill for three hundred that said, well, our charges
Speaker 1: for your surgery and all this and the inpatients day
Speaker 1: uh is three d fifty one thousand dollars. But then
Speaker 1: you put a second line in that said, um, this
Speaker 1: is quote unquote insurance adjustments slash payments of like two
Speaker 1: hundred and in sixty dollars or something, and then it
Speaker 1: says patient, third line, patient responsibility and up at the top, uh,
Speaker 1: same number patient do you know within like thirty days
Speaker 1: or something, you know, low low price of like almost
Speaker 1: ninety thousand dollars. Right, Oh my gosh, So manage, we
Speaker 1: just help you out exactly right. So I have to say,
Speaker 1: you know, I was I was laughing because they didn't realize,
Speaker 1: you know, they're putting one over on the author of
Speaker 1: what your doctor wants you to go to crush medical debt, right,
Speaker 1: not for crush mold debt. And I was cracking up,
Speaker 1: and I had to I was. I was working from
Speaker 1: home that day and I had to just let it.
Speaker 1: I had to talk to someone, so I called my
Speaker 1: best friend and I tell other story. I said, I
Speaker 1: just got a balanced bill for thousand dollars from this
Speaker 1: facility that was in network, that is in network with
Speaker 1: my insurance. And I'm telling her the story, just cracking up, laughing,
Speaker 1: and she finally says, you know, Virgie, You're the only
Speaker 1: person I know who laughs when everybody else would be
Speaker 1: curled up in the fetal position in the corner crying.
Speaker 1: And you know, I tell this story because it is
Speaker 1: a perfect example of why we have to educate ourselves.
Speaker 1: We have to have medical financial literacy, just basic three
Speaker 1: steps and it'll save you literally sometimes hundreds of thousands
Speaker 1: of dollars. If I had gone back and apply the
Speaker 1: three steps, I would have called the provider, asked for
Speaker 1: CP a real bill with CPT codes for everything, and
Speaker 1: not just like I think they gave me a CPT
Speaker 1: code for like the tissue they took during my surgery
Speaker 1: and send it to the lab. They sent me a
Speaker 1: CPT T code. They broke it out with our services
Speaker 1: and stay um three hundred and fifty one, three hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty thousand and nine nine and then CPT code
Speaker 1: for lab service mythology service forty four dollars. It was
Speaker 1: just like that. Rich. So yeah, if I had applied
Speaker 1: all three steps to that, I would have gotten a
Speaker 1: real bill. And then I would have figured out that, hey,
Speaker 1: when I've gotten the e O B for my insurance,
Speaker 1: that the number they were actually charging me, that ninety
Speaker 1: thousand dollars was the same number that they sent the
Speaker 1: insurance company to pay. The insurance company only paid ninety
Speaker 1: thousand dollars, probably less, but you know, they figured like
Speaker 1: nine times out of ten it works, and they were
Speaker 1: going to I was sent a bill for ninety thousand
Speaker 1: dollars that I didn't owe, and they sent the same claim,
Speaker 1: the same bill to my insurance company. So you didn't
Speaker 1: actually owe any of that. No, I owed nothing. So yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a great question. And so a year later I
Speaker 1: was talking to my best friend again about something and
Speaker 1: I said, you know, well, yeah, that's why you know
Speaker 1: I you know, I called myself the lady that got
Speaker 1: out of paying the ninety thousand dollar medical bill, and
Speaker 1: you can too. Let me show you how. And uh,
Speaker 1: she says, well, Virgie, um, by the way, she says,
Speaker 1: you didn't pay that right. I was like, of course not.
Speaker 1: I told her I wasn't gonna pay that, and she says, well,
Speaker 1: are you sure? Like it didn't get sent to collections.
Speaker 1: They did check your credit report, your credit number, your
Speaker 1: five cost score. I'm like, who are you talking to?
Speaker 1: Like what I was like, you're you know, you're talking
Speaker 1: to the author of crushed medical debt right as I said,
Speaker 1: you know, dude, I just refinanced my mortgage last month.
Speaker 1: My credit score, my five post score was they said
Speaker 1: it went down from the month prior UM it was
Speaker 1: now one And I was like, what I mean, I
Speaker 1: missed the snapshot. I got a screenshot and sent it
Speaker 1: to her. But apparently the month prior was eight fifty.
Speaker 1: So I said, there's no. They didn't say. It's about
Speaker 1: that's what balance billing is. It is it's she's a lawyer.
Speaker 1: She won't let me use the word contract fraud. But
Speaker 1: let's say it is UM. It is not. It is
Speaker 1: not in contract. You're if. They said, when they send
Speaker 1: you a balanced bill. When they send a balanced bill,
Speaker 1: they the provider send a balance bill to UM members
Speaker 1: of insurance companies who they contracted with to accept their
Speaker 1: insurance sending a balance bill is breach of contract. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean recognizing that what is happening here with medical
Speaker 1: billing is not always ethical, and sometimes we think what's
Speaker 1: illegal is the same thing as an ethical and it's
Speaker 1: not the same thing. You so much for saying that.
Speaker 1: I tell folks us all the time, Jillian. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know what, the these insurance companies and the providers
Speaker 1: know it's immoral and unethical, but they also know it's
Speaker 1: not illegal, and they spend a lot of money every
Speaker 1: year making sure it never becomes illegal. And it's your
Speaker 1: money they're spending lobbyists, you know, hundreds and hundreds of
Speaker 1: millions of fowlers. Yes, ma'am, January hit it right ahead.
Speaker 1: Thanks to Dr Ergie, we are one step closer to
Speaker 1: being educated and armed with knowledge and we don't have
Speaker 1: to pay that ninety medical bill. If you all listening
Speaker 1: have a similar story to getting out of a ninety
Speaker 1: thousand dollar bill, I mean, definitely call us for both
Speaker 1: Friends podcast dot com slash bill. But if it's anything,
Speaker 1: if it's a wrong bill, if it's a double bill,
Speaker 1: it's a double bill that you like. Whatever it is, right,
Speaker 1: leave us your bill from from this podcast dot com
Speaker 1: slash bill. Now it's time for round, the Lightning round,
Speaker 1: so we are playing. This is a little bit of wait, wait,
Speaker 1: don't tell me style. We're talking about negotiating medical bills
Speaker 1: and debt. For the Lightning round, we want to know
Speaker 1: what's your best negotiation experience in general. It can be
Speaker 1: medically related, but it doesn't have to be. Uh So,
Speaker 1: Dr Virgie, we will let you go first. What was
Speaker 1: your best negotiation? My best negotiation is um probably and
Speaker 1: this this has so nothing to do with medical bills
Speaker 1: because I just described my best negotiations saying no, I'm
Speaker 1: not paying any of it. Yeah, this is very funny.
Speaker 1: This will this, Oh, this will be a great story
Speaker 1: for my book. But no, you're not getting a dime
Speaker 1: because you don't owe it. Nice tribe, but no cigars.
Speaker 1: My brother used to say, probably my best negotiation is
Speaker 1: being at a tax sale a yard sale and um
Speaker 1: getting they were giving away or you know, selling a
Speaker 1: plant or something, and um, I was just talking with
Speaker 1: them and gave them, you know, a beautiful smile and
Speaker 1: they just said, hey, just take it. I was willing
Speaker 1: to pay twenty five. I would have paid whatever was
Speaker 1: a gorgeous little plant. To kind of you know, like
Speaker 1: a small tree kind of thing. And I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know what, you've been here before. They had a
Speaker 1: sale prior, couple of months prior, and I bought something.
Speaker 1: They were like, you know what, just take it. Dr
Speaker 1: I don't know that's negotiating. I think that just might
Speaker 1: be the beautiful, just the being beautiful discount that you
Speaker 1: got that I would if I could a discount, I
Speaker 1: would that would be my favorite. If I would have
Speaker 1: my old you know, the twelve year old virgie smile
Speaker 1: that wasn't so beautiful. Um, then yeah, I'd have to
Speaker 1: come up with another negotiation. I think just being kind
Speaker 1: so you can, um, just no negotiation necessary and often
Speaker 1: with them and you know, creating relationships, so that negotiation
Speaker 1: tip is be kind and friend like friend. Sometimes it
Speaker 1: doesn't even mean to get to the combative stage. You
Speaker 1: just slash a smile and walk home with a free plan.
Speaker 1: So my my husband says that, he says, you know, um,
Speaker 1: when you're at tag sales and yard sales and that
Speaker 1: kind of thing, you know, bundle it. You know, well
Speaker 1: I bought something already, can you throw in this or okay, well,
Speaker 1: as how much is this and you already have a
Speaker 1: couple of things in your hand and we just did
Speaker 1: this past weekend, and he says, well, will you do?
Speaker 1: I think it was like she wanted three dollars or
Speaker 1: five dollars, but then something the third item and he
Speaker 1: already had two items in his hand that he didn't
Speaker 1: hadn't asked her about the prices for and he says, well,
Speaker 1: will you take ten dollars for all three? Just like yeah,
Speaker 1: So that's my negotiationship be kind relationships and um, yeah, bundle.
Speaker 1: What about for you, Jim? You love negotiating? Yes, I
Speaker 1: will say my biggest one has a little bit to
Speaker 1: do with relationships. Also slightly stalking. You be the judge.
Speaker 1: It was our first house and I wanted that thing
Speaker 1: so bad, and our realtor at the time very much
Speaker 1: helped us um negotiate. But when we got under contract,
Speaker 1: they still had an open house, and I went to
Speaker 1: the open house and I like stalked it and and
Speaker 1: just made sure that nobody else wanted it. And I
Speaker 1: had talked with the flippers who were also the sellers
Speaker 1: um and just found things we had in common. One
Speaker 1: of them had went to school with my old boss,
Speaker 1: good old Greg and they and so I just made
Speaker 1: sure that once the negotiation was like done, that I
Speaker 1: really had it on lock. That was that was my
Speaker 1: favorite negotiation experience. And it ended up being, well, we
Speaker 1: had no money at the time. We were being kind
Speaker 1: of forced out of our rentals. We had saved nothing,
Speaker 1: so we had to figure out how to get the
Speaker 1: house with little to no money. I mean, that's great
Speaker 1: when your best negotiation is on your biggest asset, your
Speaker 1: biggest expect Yeah, and we thought we paid more, but
Speaker 1: we actually made out really good, being like two kids
Speaker 1: in their twenties getting this like fully flipped house. So
Speaker 1: that was that was my favorite, My favorite negotiation experience
Speaker 1: of Travises. And this is really the best story is
Speaker 1: that Travis sat on the phone with Sprint for six
Speaker 1: hours time to end up with two free iPhones. M hmm,
Speaker 1: that's amazing. That was money. I was time well spent
Speaker 1: for the money that was saying, But who wants to
Speaker 1: sit on a phone for six hours? Yeah? But hourly
Speaker 1: rate how much for those two phones worth? And divide
Speaker 1: into what is he so think about his job when
Speaker 1: he gets paid, you know, break it down, divide it
Speaker 1: up his annual salary, divide it monthly, then you can
Speaker 1: divide it into his ally rate, right, and then you know,
Speaker 1: take that number, compare it to what two iPhones together
Speaker 1: at least seven hundred dollars just doesn't to make the
Speaker 1: math easy, six hundred dollars. So six hundred dollars he saved,
Speaker 1: right or got products? Services were six hundred dollars over
Speaker 1: six hours. That was a hundred dollars. He made a
Speaker 1: hundred dollars an hour. Yep, yep. So it's crazy, and
Speaker 1: he wouldn't want to do it again, but it's it's
Speaker 1: a story. Probably I tell all the most about negotiating
Speaker 1: bills and stuff because he just I got home, he
Speaker 1: was on the phone. I left for a girls night
Speaker 1: and came back. He was still on the phone. It
Speaker 1: was an early girls knife. Yeah it was. I wasn't
Speaker 1: with you on that girl's night. No, no, so yeah
Speaker 1: it was. That was That's the best negotiation experience. It
Speaker 1: just wasn't my experience. You learned from it. Learn at
Speaker 1: the knee of the master. That's awesome. I do learn
Speaker 1: from the master. This was something for both Eric and I.
Speaker 1: We were living in one hundred seventies square feet a
Speaker 1: tiny little trailer camper and working from home like working remotely,
Speaker 1: so you can imagine what that looked like for both
Speaker 1: of us to be working in one hundred seventy square feet.
Speaker 1: So we needed an office space. We were looking at
Speaker 1: rentals and ended up finding this amazing renovated barn at
Speaker 1: a very reasonable rate for us to be able to
Speaker 1: work there. Well, it was also on lots of acreage,
Speaker 1: and it looked like a perfect place to also park
Speaker 1: our r V, So we negotiated for them to allow
Speaker 1: us to park our r V on the property, use
Speaker 1: the bar, the renovated bar, and for our coworking space
Speaker 1: for the same price that they were hoping to get
Speaker 1: out of renting out the space, just like, well, you
Speaker 1: let us also live there at no cost, and they did,
Speaker 1: And you know what, Dr Virgie, it might have been
Speaker 1: some extra smiles that got us that, because we're renting
Speaker 1: your office space, so why don't you throw in a
Speaker 1: place for us to live too. There you go. It
Speaker 1: was bundling, and really they needed someone really specific to
Speaker 1: be able to rent because they had young kids who
Speaker 1: were playing in the driveway, so they didn't want a
Speaker 1: company renting who was in and out of the driveway
Speaker 1: a lot. We were really quiet. We kept to ourselves.
Speaker 1: It's what allowed us to be able to afford the
Speaker 1: office space and still live in the trailer. So that
Speaker 1: was probably our best negotiation. Yeah, we'll rent this space
Speaker 1: from you. Can we also live here in our army
Speaker 1: right next door. Cause they were awesome became friends, which
Speaker 1: was great. So oh I love it. I love these stories.
Speaker 1: Dr Virgie, thank you so much for joining us. Where
Speaker 1: can people get more from you and get your fantastic book.
Speaker 1: I can go to Crush Medical Debt dot com and
Speaker 1: on Thursdays on Voice America dot com at five pm
Speaker 1: Eastern two pm Pacific. Um you can find me at
Speaker 1: the Aska Doctor What your Doctor Wants you to Know
Speaker 1: with Dr Virgie show awesome. Yes, and definitely check out
Speaker 1: your book, Crush Medical Debt. It's available Amazon and it's
Speaker 1: gonna help so many people really escape this uh, this
Speaker 1: crushing medical debt. So thank you again, Dr Virgie. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for having me. It's been so much
Speaker 1: fun talking with the ladies. I really appreciate all of
Speaker 1: you guys do. Likewise, Dr Virgie, thanks for being here.
Speaker 1: Oh that was I think we were both taking notes
Speaker 1: during that episode. And sometimes I take notes for the
Speaker 1: show notes and sometimes I take notes just for myself,
Speaker 1: and that was taking notes just for myself kind of episode.
Speaker 1: I have a handful of takeaways from this. I mean
Speaker 1: her just her three steps, and I think that is
Speaker 1: the biggest takeaway. Just to remember the CPT codes, the
Speaker 1: looking up the medicare rate, the calling and negotiating and
Speaker 1: and then getting on an interest rate payment plan if
Speaker 1: I can't pay it all in full. I mean that
Speaker 1: in and of itself, that's just gold that I know.
Speaker 1: I am going to need that information. So episode exactly.
Speaker 1: Send it to your friends, send it to your family.
Speaker 1: This is going to be a really important episode because
Speaker 1: if you don't need it now, you'll need it in
Speaker 1: the future. Yeah, and I love what she You know,
Speaker 1: she didn't highlight this a ton in the episode. I
Speaker 1: know we talked about it before we press her cord.
Speaker 1: But being proactive about it too. If we're listening in
Speaker 1: our twenties, thirties, even forties and in good health, sometimes
Speaker 1: we don't think about this and we may not have insurance,
Speaker 1: or we have insurance with a very very high deductible,
Speaker 1: and so just considering taking a look at that now,
Speaker 1: even if this is the topic of medical debt, isn't
Speaker 1: relevant to you now, making sure that you've got the
Speaker 1: insurance and good insurance and putting money aside for some
Speaker 1: of those medical concerns so that you can be proactive
Speaker 1: rather than react. Of certainly glad to help when we
Speaker 1: are in those situations of medical debt, but if we're not,
Speaker 1: then let's take the time now to put things in
Speaker 1: place so that that won't become a crushing circumstance for
Speaker 1: us in the future. Yeah, so, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for listening. Many of you know we have a private
Speaker 1: community where we do monthly money challenges and have accountability groups,
Speaker 1: and we want to congratulate one of our members for
Speaker 1: a big win. Um. This one's from Corey K and
Speaker 1: this was in reference to our mindset makeover challenge we
Speaker 1: did in July, and she says, I've gotten through eight
Speaker 1: of the journaling props as of right now, and I
Speaker 1: noticed how much of a fixed mindset I had about
Speaker 1: money and the opportunity to earn it. These prompts so
Speaker 1: far have opened my mind to more things about how
Speaker 1: I got to a fixed mindset about money, and they've
Speaker 1: helped turn it around to a new perspective, and I
Speaker 1: reflect on my gratitude for different situations. I have loved
Speaker 1: reflecting on the things I have learned and quote unquote failed.
Speaker 1: Moving forward, I will be more intentional and more upfront
Speaker 1: with my gratitude for myself and others. Congratulations, Corey, you
Speaker 1: are just ripping through those questions and that challenge. That
Speaker 1: was so fun to see. Yeah, so thank you for listening.
Speaker 1: If you want to check out our monthly challenge community,
Speaker 1: head to Frugal Friends podcast dot com slash club to
Speaker 1: see what challenge we have coming up next. See you
Speaker 1: next week or whenever. The next time is that you
Speaker 1: listen to this because we coming out two times a
Speaker 1: week now Tuesday and Friday. See You Tuesday and Friday
Speaker 1: by Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Syrian Jen. This
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with medical debt, but I am
Speaker 1: proud of myself because it just happened and it's relevant.
Speaker 1: Eric and I are going to a wedding this weekend,
Speaker 1: and he needed a new suit because the one that
Speaker 1: he had for the last ten years no longer fits him.
Speaker 1: You know, it shrunk. He didn't get sugar. It shrunk,
Speaker 1: he said, it shrunk, I believe him. Yeah, And meanwhile,
Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of fancy clothes. I wear
Speaker 1: a lot of dresses, but they are just your classic
Speaker 1: summer dress. Usually they work for an outdoor, back, backyard wedding,
Speaker 1: which I do find myself at a decent amount. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, too many dating people, and yet I did
Speaker 1: not get a new dress. He was even saying, you
Speaker 1: might want to consider cans. I'm like, no, there is
Speaker 1: something in my closet. There's there is just something in
Speaker 1: my closet. I'm gonna make something in my closet work.
Speaker 1: No one. No one's gonna care. Really, no one's going
Speaker 1: to notice that much. Even if I wear I'd probably
Speaker 1: will end up wearing a dress or a skirt shirt
Speaker 1: combo that I wore to another wedding that this same
Speaker 1: bride and groom were at. So but you know what,
Speaker 1: it's their wedding day. They're not going to notice that
Speaker 1: I'm wearing the same thing I wore to another mutual
Speaker 1: friend's wedding. And you know, it's not the fanciest thing
Speaker 1: and it's a wee rewear. But I have completely flipped
Speaker 1: the script from I have nothing to wear and and
Speaker 1: I need to buy something new or I want to
Speaker 1: buy something new to I do have something to wear
Speaker 1: because I've been to five other weddings this year and
Speaker 1: I found something in my closet, So I'll find something
Speaker 1: in my closet again, and I am so there you go.
Speaker 1: There's the tie end of the mindset, the mindset challenge.
Speaker 1: And we haven't he been telling me I should go
Speaker 1: get a new dress. I was like, now I've got
Speaker 1: something in my closet. I got Have you ever remembered
Speaker 1: when anyone wore to a wedding? Ever? Even the bride?
Speaker 1: Sometimes I don't remember what the dress looks like. I
Speaker 1: have I have remembered. I'm not gonna lie. It's usually, though,
Speaker 1: when someone looks stunning and it stands out to me,
Speaker 1: and it just never look stunning and no one will. Well,
Speaker 1: attraction is a spectrum, and when I notice someone wearing
Speaker 1: something that is particularly lovely, it stands out to me.
Speaker 1: But I'm not going to be mad if I see
Speaker 1: them wearing it again, You're gonna be delighted. Exactly. So
Speaker 1: it's happening. I'm taking something in my closet and I'm
Speaker 1: I'm stuck with it. Whether I like it or not.
Speaker 1: You get to wear it. I get to wear it.
Speaker 1: You get But that's the thing, like I don't have
Speaker 1: time to even now go go to the store, so
Speaker 1: I have to find something in my closet and I
Speaker 1: will because I have before and believe in you. Thank you, okay, Bye,