WEBVTT - Golf Architecture 101: The Golden Age

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<v Speaker 1>What is the so called Golden age of golf architecture?

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<v Speaker 1>For me, it's the result of three major innovations made

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<v Speaker 1>toward the beginning of the twentieth century. That's what I'm

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<v Speaker 1>talking about today with my colleague PJ. Clark in this

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<v Speaker 1>latest installment of our Golf Architecture one oh one series.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Garrett Morrison and this is Designing Golf. PJ. Clark.

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<v Speaker 1>Are you ready to talk about the Golden Age of

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<v Speaker 1>golf architecture?

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<v Speaker 2>I think so. You pointed me in the direction of

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<v Speaker 2>a wonderful thread on golf course at golf club at List,

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<v Speaker 2>golf club at Lists, gal Club at List, Welcome to

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<v Speaker 2>golf club Aatlists, and it seems like people have takes

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<v Speaker 2>on this matter, so I'm ready to get into it.

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<v Speaker 1>It has been long debated on golf club at Lists

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<v Speaker 1>in particular, it goes back at least twenty five years

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<v Speaker 1>the discussion of this kind And so how do you

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<v Speaker 1>do just a little bit of reading to not not

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<v Speaker 1>to bring you completely up to date on it, but

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<v Speaker 1>but just to get a taste of it, just to

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<v Speaker 1>get just to get a little sense of of what

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<v Speaker 1>the ideas are are about. And I hope it did

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<v Speaker 1>that for you.

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<v Speaker 2>I certainly did that. I mean, people are very uh

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<v Speaker 2>it's something I've noticed through our little journey through golf architecture.

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<v Speaker 2>What I want here is that people are very passionate

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<v Speaker 2>about these subjects, like to get some takes off, which

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<v Speaker 2>is good. I appreciate that.

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<v Speaker 1>So there's nothing that gets people worked up like an

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<v Speaker 1>extremely niche interest exactly golf architecture. So that's that's sort

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<v Speaker 1>of the nature of it. So I want you to,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, take yourself to a place. Before you read

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<v Speaker 1>this thread and and got a little sense for it,

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<v Speaker 1>you had probably heard the term golden age of golf

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<v Speaker 1>architecture thrown around in a lot of podcasts, right, So

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<v Speaker 1>what what had you already picked up about what golden

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<v Speaker 1>age meant?

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<v Speaker 2>Feels like it was a long time ago. I want

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<v Speaker 2>to call it, like, you know, nineteen tens ish, maybe World.

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<v Speaker 1>War One sort of area in the middle of it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, that's if you told me to give you

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<v Speaker 2>a decade, I would have said nineteen ten. I have

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<v Speaker 2>a feeling the name like Donald Ross probably going to

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<v Speaker 2>come up in this at some level, maybe CB McDonald,

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<v Speaker 2>those types of guys. Yeah, it's probably, it's probably what

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<v Speaker 2>I have for you. I would have just guessed this

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<v Speaker 2>was around World War One and gone with it.

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<v Speaker 1>That's perfect. Yeah, well, I mean world War one is

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<v Speaker 1>definitely in it. I think probably the decade most associated

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<v Speaker 1>with the American Golden Age, at the very least is

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<v Speaker 1>the is the nineteen TWENTIESKA and if we're talking about

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<v Speaker 1>the British Golden Age, that's often more concentrated. The discussion

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<v Speaker 1>of it is concentrated around things that happened in the

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen hundreds, the first decade of the twentieth century up

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<v Speaker 1>until the outbreak of World War One, so that is

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<v Speaker 1>the dineral time period. You're right that CB MacDonald and

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<v Speaker 1>Donald Ross are two significant Golden Age architects, but I'm

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<v Speaker 1>glad that you didn't know much more about it, because

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<v Speaker 1>we can kind of build up from there, so you know,

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<v Speaker 1>in basic terms, the Golden Age of golf architecture occurred

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<v Speaker 1>in what I would call the first few decades of

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<v Speaker 1>the twentieth century, so from about nineteen hundred to about

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen thirty with the onset of the Great Depression, or

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<v Speaker 1>some people would argue nineteen thirty nine or forty with

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<v Speaker 1>the outbreak of World War Two, but first few decades

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<v Speaker 1>of the nineteen hundreds is how I usually think of it,

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<v Speaker 1>and it was during this period that a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>the best regarded golf courses of all time were built

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<v Speaker 1>or renovated and turned into their permanent forms. A lot

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<v Speaker 1>of this action was concentrated around Great Britain and North America,

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<v Speaker 1>but there was plenty happening in continental Europe as well,

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<v Speaker 1>Australia and New Zealand, Japan, South Africa, so definitely a

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<v Speaker 1>global phenomenon here. The most famous architects of the Golden

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<v Speaker 1>Age include not only C. B. MacDonald and Donald Ross,

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<v Speaker 1>whom you already mentioned, but also Harry Colt, Herbert Fowler,

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<v Speaker 1>James Braid, Tom Simpson, Charles Hugh Allison, Alistair McKenzie when

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<v Speaker 1>we've touched on with his k Yeah, Seth Rayner, aw

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<v Speaker 1>Telling Hast, George Thomas, William Flynn, Perry Maxwell. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>basically all the big boys, and then you know the courses.

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<v Speaker 1>If you just go down any top one hundred list,

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<v Speaker 1>Golden Age courses are most of the top portion of

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<v Speaker 1>the list. So we're talking about Pine Valley, Cyprus Point,

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<v Speaker 1>the William Flynn design at Shinnecock Hills, National Golf Links,

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<v Speaker 1>Augusta National, Marion, Chicago Golf Club, Pinehurst Number Two. You know, overseas,

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<v Speaker 1>Royal County, Down, Royal Port, Russian Mirfield all date back

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<v Speaker 1>to the eighteen hundreds but are probably best under stood

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<v Speaker 1>as nineteen twenties or thirties Harry Coult designs. You have

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<v Speaker 1>Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heath. In Australia, you have Sunningdale

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<v Speaker 1>and Saint George's Hill. In England you have Herono and

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<v Speaker 1>Kawana and Japan, there really is an overwhelming dominance by

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<v Speaker 1>the Golden Age in that set of golf courses considered

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<v Speaker 1>to be the best in the world. So I think

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<v Speaker 1>it's really important to understand as you're learning about golf

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<v Speaker 1>architecture what the Golden Age is. It's a term that

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<v Speaker 1>people toss around a lot, Oh Golden Age, this Golden Age, that, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a Golden Age gem. What does that mean? Sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>I think people who say it may not completely know

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<v Speaker 1>what they mean by it, but just kind of have

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<v Speaker 1>the vibe of it, which is okay, I'm not insulting

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<v Speaker 1>that approach to the term, but what does the term

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<v Speaker 1>really mean? What is this era, What made it so great?

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<v Speaker 1>What made it special? What were the main innovations of

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<v Speaker 1>that time, and why have the courses stood the test

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<v Speaker 1>of time and continued to be massive, massive in influences

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<v Speaker 1>on current golf architects, Like the influence of the Golden

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<v Speaker 1>Age has been so overwhelming on current golf architects that

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of them feel that there's basically no way

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<v Speaker 1>to escape it. There's no way to surpass it. We

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<v Speaker 1>might as well just give in to it. That's how

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<v Speaker 1>large the era looms right now. So that's what we're

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<v Speaker 1>getting into today. Does that sound good?

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<v Speaker 2>That sounds great. It feels like there were a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of names there that I had obviously heard of, a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of golf courses that have obviously heard of. So

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<v Speaker 2>this is good. I'm happy. I'm happy to dive into this.

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<v Speaker 2>It feels this feels like feels a little all encompassing here.

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<v Speaker 2>It feels like if there's one thing to really know,

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<v Speaker 2>this might this might be the episode.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, it's a big subject. It's ambitious for this episode

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<v Speaker 1>to tackle this. I have ways of kind of narrowing

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<v Speaker 1>it down and maybe clarifying some things, of like focusing

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<v Speaker 1>on certain things that I think are useful, but there's

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<v Speaker 1>no doubt that we're tackling it.

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<v Speaker 2>They want today, Let's do it all right.

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<v Speaker 1>So before we get into how the Golden Age began,

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<v Speaker 1>what these innovations were that I've referred to a couple

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<v Speaker 1>So to prepare for this episode, PJ. As you mentioned before,

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<v Speaker 1>you read a recent thread on the messageboard golf club

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<v Speaker 1>at list. This thread was started by the architect Tom Doak,

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<v Speaker 1>and he was asking what is a Golden Age? His answer,

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<v Speaker 1>which I found very interesting, was people developing golf courses

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<v Speaker 1>on interesting land. Basically, dok is arguing that what made

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<v Speaker 1>the Golden Age different from other eras was that architects

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<v Speaker 1>had an unusual number of great and distinctive properties to

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<v Speaker 1>work with. And by the way, he's also indicating that

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<v Speaker 1>this is what connects the First Golden Age with the

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<v Speaker 1>current era of golf architecture. You know, sometimes people call

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<v Speaker 1>the current era the second Golden Age, right, Architects like

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<v Speaker 1>Corn Crenshaw, Gil Hanson, obviously Tom Doak himself have started

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<v Speaker 1>to work on really exciting land again, so that was

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<v Speaker 1>his argument, and then he opened it up for discussion,

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<v Speaker 1>and some form members chimed in with it with their

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<v Speaker 1>own takes. What did you make of all this? Were

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<v Speaker 1>there any ideas that appealed to you in this any

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<v Speaker 1>ideas that seemed confusing? How did you process it?

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<v Speaker 2>My main takeaway. And I don't remember the member who

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<v Speaker 2>said this, but I like the point is that I

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<v Speaker 2>feel like somebody alluded to him just going to paraphrase

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<v Speaker 2>that we are only considering these courses golden age because

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<v Speaker 2>they've stood the test of time for one hundred plus

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<v Speaker 2>years now. In some cases that it's hard to really

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<v Speaker 2>judge what is a current golden age until we're further

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<v Speaker 2>away to see if these plays are still relevant in

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<v Speaker 2>fifty sixty one hundred years. That I think is my

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<v Speaker 2>main takeaway.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, hindsight is twenty twenty on this stuff. People living

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<v Speaker 1>through the first few decades of the twentieth century did

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<v Speaker 1>not say we're in a golden age of golf architecture.

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<v Speaker 1>That term was applied back to the era starting maybe

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<v Speaker 1>thirty years ago. I've tried to figure out exactly who's

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<v Speaker 1>responsible for the coinage of the term the golden age

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<v Speaker 1>of golf architecture. My impression is that it was kind

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<v Speaker 1>of in common discussion by the late nineties, and then

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<v Speaker 1>Jeff Shackelford wrote a book called The Golden Age of

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<v Speaker 1>Golf Design. The exact wording of the title I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>sure of, but it was a book about the Golden

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<v Speaker 1>Age that kind of surveyed the different architects and courses

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<v Speaker 1>that were relevant, and I think that had a big

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<v Speaker 1>role to play in popularizing the term. But this sense

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<v Speaker 1>that there was a golden age towards the beginning of

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<v Speaker 1>the twenty century, and golf course design was really information

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<v Speaker 1>in the eighties and nineties, but but not so much

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<v Speaker 1>before that. So it's only retrospectively that that this stuff

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<v Speaker 1>becomes clear or starts to take on certain labels. And

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<v Speaker 1>obviously we're prisoners of our own time. We label eras

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<v Speaker 1>how we feel like labeling eras. We call the Renaissance

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<v Speaker 1>the Renaissance, right, But you know, William Shakespeare didn't say,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm this is the Renaissance.

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<v Speaker 2>No, No, you have to the future generations get the

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<v Speaker 2>the benefit of knowing what already happened and can use

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<v Speaker 2>that to however they want to shape things. I guess.

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<v Speaker 1>So you know, I'm a big Bob Crosby guy. Yep,

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<v Speaker 1>he's been. He's been on the podcast a few times.

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<v Speaker 1>He's he's extraordinarily intelligent in his u in his uh

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<v Speaker 1>it takes on golf architecture. So he contributed to the thread,

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<v Speaker 1>and I particularly loved what he said. He said that

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<v Speaker 1>a golden age is a time when people are working

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<v Speaker 1>through the ramifications of a new idea, and I think

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<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of truth to that, right. It's an

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<v Speaker 1>insight that goes across art forms as well. So I

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned the Renaissance. You could say that the European Renaissance

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<v Speaker 1>was a time when people were working through the ramifications

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<v Speaker 1>of a new idea, and that new idea, or at

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<v Speaker 1>least one of them, was humanism, right, an interest in

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<v Speaker 1>the individual, a willingness to put individual humans at the

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<v Speaker 1>center of plays and paintings and other forms of art.

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<v Speaker 1>That was a massive, massive idea of the Renaissance, and

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<v Speaker 1>the excitement of that idea that the possibilities of it

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<v Speaker 1>gave the art of that era a lot of vitality

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<v Speaker 1>and staying power. You know, there are other reasons that

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<v Speaker 1>we call the Renaissance and restaurant. There was also an

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<v Speaker 1>economic renaissance and people were becoming wealthier, and that's part

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<v Speaker 1>of the reason why they were able to make art

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<v Speaker 1>and have fun and you know, do cool stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, but.

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<v Speaker 1>Certainly part of it is working through the ramifications of

0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:02.120
<v Speaker 1>a new idea. So I think when you pair Bob's

0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:06.600
<v Speaker 1>insight with Tom's, you have something close to the answer

0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.120
<v Speaker 1>that I like for the Golden Age of golf architecture.

0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.040
<v Speaker 1>The Golden Age was a time when golf architects were

0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.679
<v Speaker 1>working through the ramifications of a new set of ideas

0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:19.960
<v Speaker 1>and they got to apply those ideas to really good

0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:25.520
<v Speaker 1>pieces of land. So let's dig into what the new

0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:27.520
<v Speaker 1>ideas were, or what I think they were. This is

0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:31.400
<v Speaker 1>kind of my interpretation and processing of all this, and

0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:35.720
<v Speaker 1>I've boiled it down to three big ones. One the

0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:38.600
<v Speaker 1>idea of spending a lot of money on the construction

0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:42.640
<v Speaker 1>of a golf course. Two the idea of strategic design,

0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:47.360
<v Speaker 1>which you're familiar with from past lessons, so to speak.

0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:52.960
<v Speaker 1>Three the idea of building artificial features that appear natural. Again,

0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:56.280
<v Speaker 1>a concept that we've touched on before, maybe haven't dug

0:13:56.360 --> 0:14:02.800
<v Speaker 1>into super deeply yet. So basically, money strategy and naturalism.

0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:06.120
<v Speaker 1>Those are the three ideas that we're going to cover. Now.

0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.200
<v Speaker 1>It's obviously pretty hard to nail down the time and

0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:13.319
<v Speaker 1>place when any given new idea begins. Ideas are always

0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:17.160
<v Speaker 1>sort of in the process of development. So you know,

0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:19.480
<v Speaker 1>we could trace this back to ancient Rome if we wanted,

0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.520
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure, right, But in the case of the Golden

0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:26.240
<v Speaker 1>Age of golf architecture, I think nineteen oh one in

0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:30.800
<v Speaker 1>the suburbs southwest of London is a really good starting point.

0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:35.320
<v Speaker 1>It's very specific, right, and that's because three big things

0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:41.120
<v Speaker 1>happened in that year in that place. First, Sunningdale Golf

0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:47.000
<v Speaker 1>Club opened. Second, nearby at Woking Golf Club, a pair

0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:50.640
<v Speaker 1>of members named Stuart Payton and John Lowe started to

0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:54.520
<v Speaker 1>make changes to the course. And later in nineteen oh one,

0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:59.200
<v Speaker 1>back at Sunningdale, Harry Colt became the first secretary of

0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:03.760
<v Speaker 1>the club. And these three events kind of launched these

0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:08.880
<v Speaker 1>ideas of money, strategy and naturalism, which in turn I

0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:13.680
<v Speaker 1>think powered the Golden Age of golf architecture. Okay, so

0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:18.040
<v Speaker 1>I've set up a framework, right, three events, three ideas.

0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.120
<v Speaker 1>It's important to note, by the way, you know, since

0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:24.080
<v Speaker 1>we're talking about land as well ideas being applied to

0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:28.600
<v Speaker 1>good land. Sunningdale and Woking both occupy a particular type

0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:31.840
<v Speaker 1>of terrain called heathland, right, and we don't won't get

0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:34.360
<v Speaker 1>too deep into the geology here. I think it's interesting,

0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:36.320
<v Speaker 1>but it would take us down at you know, different road.

0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:40.760
<v Speaker 1>But essentially heathland is pretty well suited to golf because one,

0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:45.400
<v Speaker 1>the soils are sandy and drain well. A lot of

0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:48.400
<v Speaker 1>inland sites don't do that. Right, Heavy clay soils are

0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:52.040
<v Speaker 1>not as good for golf. Heathland soils are unusually good

0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:57.600
<v Speaker 1>for inland golf. The best terrain tends to be seaside linksland,

0:15:57.600 --> 0:15:59.960
<v Speaker 1>which is sandy. Heathland at least has a little bit

0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:04.640
<v Speaker 1>the sandiness to it. Right. Two, they're covered by these

0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:08.640
<v Speaker 1>this low scrubby vegetation called heather, which is a decent

0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:12.040
<v Speaker 1>natural hazard. You can find your ball in it, but

0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.080
<v Speaker 1>it's it's hard to play out of it. And three,

0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:20.320
<v Speaker 1>heathland generally alternates between open and wooded, which makes for

0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:25.600
<v Speaker 1>some nice variety in a golf course. But even though

0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:31.560
<v Speaker 1>heathland is a good landscape for golf, it's not Lynksland. Right.

0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:35.040
<v Speaker 1>And in order to make the terrain golfable. You usually

0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:37.840
<v Speaker 1>have to do quite a bit in heathland. At the

0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.720
<v Speaker 1>very least, you have to remove some trees and take

0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:44.080
<v Speaker 1>out a bunch of heather to make way for the

0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:47.920
<v Speaker 1>fairways and greens. On Lynksland, often you could just kind

0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:53.040
<v Speaker 1>of play golf right heathland. There there would be some

0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:57.680
<v Speaker 1>engineering required, like many inland sits, and and that's a

0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:03.320
<v Speaker 1>that's an important factor here. Okay, all right, so the opening.

0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:05.920
<v Speaker 1>The first event is the opening of the old course

0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:11.600
<v Speaker 1>at Sunningdale Golf Club. Sunningdale was architecturally speaking, really the

0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:15.679
<v Speaker 1>first modern golf course, and that is that's a big claim.

0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:19.239
<v Speaker 1>But I think a major reason for it is that

0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:21.439
<v Speaker 1>it was the first golf course project to have a

0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:24.720
<v Speaker 1>large amount of money behind it. Now, in order to

0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:29.480
<v Speaker 1>understand why that was so important, I think you have

0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:31.560
<v Speaker 1>to know a little bit about how golf courses were

0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:36.080
<v Speaker 1>created before Sunningdale. So in the eighteen hundreds and before,

0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:39.119
<v Speaker 1>courses tended to be laid out very quickly. If a

0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:41.880
<v Speaker 1>designer was involved, he would spend a day or two

0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:46.280
<v Speaker 1>walking around the site and making recommendations. Sometimes these recommendations

0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:49.199
<v Speaker 1>would be really excellent. I don't want to discount you

0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:52.320
<v Speaker 1>know the expertise that goes into routing a golf course,

0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:55.600
<v Speaker 1>But the reality is it would happen very quickly, no

0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.280
<v Speaker 1>offense to old Tom Morris, basically is what I'm saying.

0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:03.080
<v Speaker 1>And then the club members would usually complete the course,

0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:07.439
<v Speaker 1>they would build it and very little earth moving would

0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:09.960
<v Speaker 1>be done. So the quality of a given course really

0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:13.359
<v Speaker 1>depended on the quality of the routing and most importantly

0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:17.359
<v Speaker 1>the land. Where the land was good for golf, the

0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:21.200
<v Speaker 1>courses turned out well. Like Scottish Linksland. This is where

0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:23.920
<v Speaker 1>the game was invented, so the land was obviously perfect

0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:27.199
<v Speaker 1>for it, and many very old Scottish links courses are

0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:33.080
<v Speaker 1>still with us today and treasured today. But something important

0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.760
<v Speaker 1>happened in the late eighteen hundreds, eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties,

0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:41.680
<v Speaker 1>the late Victorian era, and that was that golf got

0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:48.879
<v Speaker 1>popular in England. The historian Michael Morrison no relation calls

0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:53.600
<v Speaker 1>it the great English golf boom. So English people start

0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:57.240
<v Speaker 1>establishing a lot of new courses very quickly, and often

0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.800
<v Speaker 1>these courses are not on Linksland. For the first time

0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.240
<v Speaker 1>in golf history, new courses were by and large being

0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:07.840
<v Speaker 1>created Inland, and it's hard to express how big of

0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:10.119
<v Speaker 1>a change. This was golf was moving away from the

0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:13.080
<v Speaker 1>land that inspired the game to be played in the

0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:17.639
<v Speaker 1>first place. Golf was a way of using linksland. The

0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:21.600
<v Speaker 1>game and the land were very intertwined, right, So when

0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:25.320
<v Speaker 1>English people started trying to move the game inland in

0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:28.239
<v Speaker 1>the eighteen eighties and nineties, they kind of had to

0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:32.720
<v Speaker 1>reinvent what a golf course was. Now. At first, the

0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.240
<v Speaker 1>attempts at creating inland courses were pretty rudimentary. Basically, the

0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:39.280
<v Speaker 1>same method was used that had always been used. A

0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:41.440
<v Speaker 1>golf professional would visit for a day or two, tell

0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:45.120
<v Speaker 1>the members what to do, et cetera. Courses were built

0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:49.399
<v Speaker 1>very cheaply, partly because no one knew whether the enthusiasm

0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:52.800
<v Speaker 1>for golf would last. Right, if this fad goes away tomorrow,

0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:55.640
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to be stuck holding a bunch of debt.

0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:58.359
<v Speaker 2>Yes, right, understandable.

0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.119
<v Speaker 1>Now, again, this wasn't a bad method for laying out

0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:05.159
<v Speaker 1>a links course, but what English people found is that

0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:08.280
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't as good for laying out an inland course.

0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:11.639
<v Speaker 1>Early inland courses in England were pretty poor for the

0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:15.920
<v Speaker 1>most part because they were often muddy. You know, once

0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:18.680
<v Speaker 1>you move away from Lynksland, it's much harder to find

0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:23.080
<v Speaker 1>naturally occurring close cropped turf. They weren't as interesting to

0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:25.880
<v Speaker 1>play as links courses because the land usually didn't have

0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:31.760
<v Speaker 1>the natural undulation and the natural hazards of links and

0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.879
<v Speaker 1>you know, so as obvious why they weren't as good.

0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:38.919
<v Speaker 1>But they were golf courses and people enjoyed them, and

0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:42.520
<v Speaker 1>the game kept growing in England. The fad did not

0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:48.200
<v Speaker 1>go away. So nineteen oh one rolls around. The game

0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:50.800
<v Speaker 1>is in a secure place. It's starting to be taken

0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:55.320
<v Speaker 1>more seriously as a permanent feature of British life. And

0:20:55.480 --> 0:21:00.119
<v Speaker 1>two brothers Ta and Ga Roberts. Don't ask me what

0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:03.400
<v Speaker 1>Ta and Ga stand for. I think probably Tom and George.

0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:05.160
<v Speaker 1>But you know, who.

0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:10.320
<v Speaker 2>Knows, could be Harry Potter fans who knows.

0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:14.280
<v Speaker 1>They decided to found. They decided to found Sunningdale Golf Club.

0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:17.360
<v Speaker 1>They hire Willie Park Junior to design the course. Park

0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:21.000
<v Speaker 1>was a well established golf professional and course designer, two

0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:24.800
<v Speaker 1>time winner of the Open. So Park designed the course

0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:30.159
<v Speaker 1>and helped to oversee construction starting in the year nineteen

0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:33.760
<v Speaker 1>hundred and This was a kind of golf course construction

0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:37.280
<v Speaker 1>project that had never been seen before. The course took

0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:41.000
<v Speaker 1>a year and a half to build. At one point

0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:45.720
<v Speaker 1>there were seventy men, thirty horses and ten plows on site.

0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:52.159
<v Speaker 1>In total, it cost four thousand pounds. This obviously seems

0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:55.879
<v Speaker 1>like a miniscule, minuscule amount now, and not just just

0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:59.440
<v Speaker 1>because of inflation, right, people just spend more relatively even

0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:02.560
<v Speaker 1>on on golf course projects now, but at the time

0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:08.800
<v Speaker 1>absolutely massive. It was way way more money than had

0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:13.680
<v Speaker 1>ever been spent on building a golf course, way more time,

0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:18.639
<v Speaker 1>way more effort. So, for example, to my knowledge, Sunningdale

0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:21.800
<v Speaker 1>was the first course ever to be seeded all the

0:22:21.800 --> 0:22:26.600
<v Speaker 1>way through. Before Sunningdale, courses would mostly just use natural

0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:30.080
<v Speaker 1>turf and sort of encourage it to spread and be

0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:34.760
<v Speaker 1>be good. Right at Sunningdale they actually planted turf grass

0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:37.639
<v Speaker 1>on all the teas, fairways and greens and that was

0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:42.520
<v Speaker 1>just revolutionary. So how did they do all this? How

0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:44.240
<v Speaker 1>did they have all this money to spend on a

0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:48.240
<v Speaker 1>golf course project. First, Sunningdale was located in a region

0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:51.080
<v Speaker 1>where wealthy people lived, and it was built by and

0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:54.119
<v Speaker 1>for these people. So the developers of the course, the

0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:57.639
<v Speaker 1>Roberts Brothers, felt comfortable that they could earn back the

0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:02.199
<v Speaker 1>relatively big investment that they made on the construction of

0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:07.200
<v Speaker 1>the course. Secondly, and relatedly, Sunningdale was basically a land

0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:11.040
<v Speaker 1>speculation scheme. So the Roberts brothers were going to build

0:23:11.080 --> 0:23:13.000
<v Speaker 1>the course and then they were going to sell the

0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:18.439
<v Speaker 1>surrounding lots to wealthy London suburbanites to build houses. So

0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:21.120
<v Speaker 1>this gave them some confidence that they could they could

0:23:21.160 --> 0:23:22.640
<v Speaker 1>make that initial heavy investment.

0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:24.960
<v Speaker 2>It's always a land speculation scheme. At the end of

0:23:24.960 --> 0:23:28.399
<v Speaker 2>the day, everything everything is a lance speculation scheme.

0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:33.600
<v Speaker 1>Behind everything is real estate, right and so it obviously,

0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:37.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, this became an important model for golf course

0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:39.800
<v Speaker 1>development in the Golden Age and beyond. You know, something

0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:42.760
<v Speaker 1>that people discount a little bit. People sometimes act as

0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:48.120
<v Speaker 1>though real estate golf was invented in nineteen sixty, but no,

0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:54.000
<v Speaker 1>it was there right at the beginning of modern golf architecture. Now,

0:23:54.160 --> 0:23:57.120
<v Speaker 1>I think maybe the most important reason that so much

0:23:57.160 --> 0:24:00.679
<v Speaker 1>money went into Sunningdale is that the people building the

0:24:00.760 --> 0:24:04.439
<v Speaker 1>course were trying to solve the problems of inland golf.

0:24:05.000 --> 0:24:08.040
<v Speaker 1>They had seen enough inland English courses over the past

0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:11.840
<v Speaker 1>two decades to know that these courses just weren't as

0:24:11.840 --> 0:24:16.240
<v Speaker 1>good as Scottish links and so they made a bigger

0:24:16.280 --> 0:24:19.919
<v Speaker 1>commitment at Sunningdale and tried to create a course that

0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:22.920
<v Speaker 1>could stand toe to toe with a real links course.

0:24:23.640 --> 0:24:28.680
<v Speaker 1>They put effort, time and money into engineering this piece

0:24:28.720 --> 0:24:32.119
<v Speaker 1>of land for golf. This was it was really what

0:24:32.280 --> 0:24:36.840
<v Speaker 1>turned golf course design into golf course architecture. Right, does

0:24:36.880 --> 0:24:38.040
<v Speaker 1>that distinction make sense?

0:24:38.520 --> 0:24:39.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

0:24:39.760 --> 0:24:44.240
<v Speaker 1>So you know, Sunningdale was a professionally constructed environment. Now,

0:24:44.240 --> 0:24:48.560
<v Speaker 1>by our standards today, it's an extremely natural golf course, right,

0:24:48.600 --> 0:24:51.680
<v Speaker 1>But in its time it stood out as a work

0:24:51.720 --> 0:24:55.399
<v Speaker 1>of architecture rather than just a piece of land adapted

0:24:55.440 --> 0:24:58.080
<v Speaker 1>to golf. And this is the key I think, like

0:24:58.520 --> 0:25:00.760
<v Speaker 1>the idea of spending a lot of money on golf

0:25:00.800 --> 0:25:06.439
<v Speaker 1>course construction essentially created a new discipline called golf course architecture.

0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:12.080
<v Speaker 1>Now the obvious next step what is golf course architecture?

0:25:13.400 --> 0:25:16.199
<v Speaker 1>And that, to me is the huge question that the

0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:20.320
<v Speaker 1>Golden Age was addressing and working out the ramifications of

0:25:20.800 --> 0:25:24.520
<v Speaker 1>if we're architects now for calling ourselves architects and we're

0:25:24.520 --> 0:25:29.480
<v Speaker 1>doing architecture, what should we be building and why? Right?

0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:32.719
<v Speaker 1>Suddenly this was a hot topic of discussion in the

0:25:32.720 --> 0:25:34.960
<v Speaker 1>golf world, and it led I think to the first

0:25:35.080 --> 0:25:39.840
<v Speaker 1>properly worked out theory of golf course design. Right, Okay,

0:25:39.880 --> 0:25:44.280
<v Speaker 1>that's something opening, all right, any any reflections or questions

0:25:44.280 --> 0:25:45.120
<v Speaker 1>on that so far?

0:25:45.680 --> 0:25:48.160
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. This feels like kind of the Pandora's

0:25:48.200 --> 0:25:51.200
<v Speaker 2>Box moment of this. This whole thing is that when

0:25:51.240 --> 0:25:54.280
<v Speaker 2>you start putting money into something for the first time

0:25:54.520 --> 0:25:58.920
<v Speaker 2>and getting maybe not even necessarily profit out of it,

0:25:59.000 --> 0:26:02.679
<v Speaker 2>but getting returned and out of it, people are inevitably

0:26:02.720 --> 0:26:04.119
<v Speaker 2>going to copy that at some level.

0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:09.600
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, it's a virus, right, and you know it's

0:26:09.880 --> 0:26:12.840
<v Speaker 1>not an entirely it's not always a bad virus. It's

0:26:12.920 --> 0:26:15.400
<v Speaker 1>usually a bad virus, money being the root of all evil,

0:26:15.440 --> 0:26:20.960
<v Speaker 1>et cetera. But look like it was a Pandora's Box moment.

0:26:21.000 --> 0:26:23.160
<v Speaker 1>I think that's a great way of putting it. Once

0:26:23.240 --> 0:26:27.840
<v Speaker 1>you invent this new financial technology of building a golf

0:26:27.880 --> 0:26:30.680
<v Speaker 1>course with a lot of money, then it just tends

0:26:30.720 --> 0:26:31.840
<v Speaker 1>to kind of spiral, right.

0:26:31.960 --> 0:26:32.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:26:33.080 --> 0:26:36.119
<v Speaker 1>It's like with anything, you know, the more money you

0:26:36.160 --> 0:26:39.000
<v Speaker 1>put into it, the more money you put into.

0:26:38.800 --> 0:26:41.600
<v Speaker 2>It, yeah, and the more money everybody else puts into it.

0:26:41.640 --> 0:26:44.239
<v Speaker 2>So this is that that makes sense? I do uh.

0:26:45.320 --> 0:26:48.520
<v Speaker 2>I think the acknowledgment at some level that it was

0:26:48.600 --> 0:26:51.920
<v Speaker 2>kind of a real estate play is also funny too,

0:26:52.160 --> 0:26:57.800
<v Speaker 2>because especially as you've seen land values kind of grow

0:26:57.920 --> 0:27:00.399
<v Speaker 2>everywhere recently. I know, land is a is like a

0:27:00.440 --> 0:27:03.280
<v Speaker 2>big thing when people talking about the new golf courses

0:27:03.320 --> 0:27:06.800
<v Speaker 2>being built. So I think the acknowledgment that at its

0:27:06.960 --> 0:27:11.239
<v Speaker 2>very basic, first ever level, that this was also in

0:27:11.280 --> 0:27:13.520
<v Speaker 2>some sense of real estate play, to me is very

0:27:13.520 --> 0:27:15.639
<v Speaker 2>funny because you know, the more things change, the more

0:27:15.680 --> 0:27:15.960
<v Speaker 2>they stay.

0:27:16.000 --> 0:27:20.120
<v Speaker 1>Is say, you know, if people say that core golf facilities, right,

0:27:20.160 --> 0:27:23.040
<v Speaker 1>golf facilities that are not connected to any other kind

0:27:23.040 --> 0:27:27.040
<v Speaker 1>of economic activity like real estate, that that's a legacy

0:27:27.080 --> 0:27:29.440
<v Speaker 1>of the Golden Age, I think that's incorrect.

0:27:29.560 --> 0:27:29.800
<v Speaker 2>Mm h.

0:27:30.280 --> 0:27:33.399
<v Speaker 1>It's just not like links golf courses from the eighteen

0:27:33.520 --> 0:27:36.440
<v Speaker 1>hundreds were core golf facilities, but they also weren't really

0:27:37.080 --> 0:27:40.520
<v Speaker 1>you know, economic propositions where they were more or less

0:27:40.520 --> 0:27:43.240
<v Speaker 1>open land, most of them free to play. They weren't

0:27:43.240 --> 0:27:45.680
<v Speaker 1>they weren't really part of the economy for the most part.

0:27:45.800 --> 0:27:48.760
<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's some of that's there are some nuances there.

0:27:48.800 --> 0:27:51.679
<v Speaker 1>Saint Andrew's obviously has always the town has obviously always

0:27:51.720 --> 0:27:55.280
<v Speaker 1>benefited from from it's the tourism that the golf attracts,

0:27:55.280 --> 0:27:58.240
<v Speaker 1>and that goes back a long way. But but it's

0:27:58.280 --> 0:28:03.160
<v Speaker 1>it's different. The Old Age invented the real estate golf course. Now,

0:28:03.400 --> 0:28:06.280
<v Speaker 1>these golf courses were not the type where you had houses,

0:28:06.359 --> 0:28:09.640
<v Speaker 1>cookie cutter houses lining both sides of the fairway. That's

0:28:09.640 --> 0:28:12.639
<v Speaker 1>not where we're talking about. But Cyprus Point was a

0:28:12.680 --> 0:28:16.919
<v Speaker 1>real estate play. Pebble Beach was a real estate play.

0:28:17.040 --> 0:28:21.720
<v Speaker 1>You know, pas tiempo real estate. There are some exceptions.

0:28:21.880 --> 0:28:24.600
<v Speaker 1>There are plenty of exceptions to this from the Golden Age.

0:28:24.720 --> 0:28:27.160
<v Speaker 1>I would venture to say that most of the golf

0:28:27.200 --> 0:28:29.800
<v Speaker 1>courses were core golf course facilities. But if we're talking

0:28:29.840 --> 0:28:35.199
<v Speaker 1>about innovation and innovation of the Golden Age was the

0:28:35.240 --> 0:28:39.280
<v Speaker 1>real estate golf course. Now, Sunningdale doesn't feel that way

0:28:39.320 --> 0:28:43.120
<v Speaker 1>when you play it because the property has integrity, it's

0:28:43.200 --> 0:28:46.840
<v Speaker 1>not crowded with houses. But along all the boundaries there's

0:28:46.840 --> 0:28:49.000
<v Speaker 1>a neighborhood that's the Sunningdale neighborhood.

0:28:49.080 --> 0:28:50.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, not a coincidence, I'm sure.

0:28:52.080 --> 0:28:55.680
<v Speaker 1>So that brings us to Woking Golf Club in nineteen

0:28:55.720 --> 0:28:58.800
<v Speaker 1>oh one, one of my favorite golf course names because

0:28:58.840 --> 0:29:02.280
<v Speaker 1>it just bothers people that it's woke, you know, and

0:29:02.320 --> 0:29:08.840
<v Speaker 1>that was I mean, it was basically invented here woke

0:29:08.880 --> 0:29:13.040
<v Speaker 1>golf architecture at Woking Golf Club. This kind of delights

0:29:13.080 --> 0:29:18.840
<v Speaker 1>me so so two particularly woke members of Woking named

0:29:19.800 --> 0:29:24.080
<v Speaker 1>Stuart Payton and John Lowe started to make some alterations

0:29:24.080 --> 0:29:28.240
<v Speaker 1>to the golf course around nineteen oh one. They were

0:29:28.280 --> 0:29:32.280
<v Speaker 1>thoughtful guys, both members of the Oxford Cambridge Golfing Society.

0:29:32.640 --> 0:29:36.360
<v Speaker 2>Just kind of the this it sounds sounds intense.

0:29:36.760 --> 0:29:39.160
<v Speaker 1>This is the secret society. I mean, to this day,

0:29:39.880 --> 0:29:41.720
<v Speaker 1>to this day, if you want to if you want

0:29:41.720 --> 0:29:46.440
<v Speaker 1>to locate the power source of global golf, then look

0:29:46.600 --> 0:29:49.000
<v Speaker 1>look no further than the Oxford Cambridge.

0:29:48.600 --> 0:29:52.200
<v Speaker 2>Golf getting into like the assassin's cretification of golf. Here

0:29:52.360 --> 0:29:55.200
<v Speaker 2>this is who are the Knights templar? Really, I mean

0:29:55.240 --> 0:29:57.560
<v Speaker 2>we're at the or at the end of the table here.

0:29:57.800 --> 0:30:00.880
<v Speaker 1>That's exactly where we are. We're at the center of

0:30:00.880 --> 0:30:05.480
<v Speaker 1>the maze. Low was he was an RNA member and

0:30:05.520 --> 0:30:10.680
<v Speaker 1>a writer who wrote about golf topics prolifically. And Peyton

0:30:10.800 --> 0:30:13.840
<v Speaker 1>actually lived in a house on the club property. So

0:30:14.680 --> 0:30:18.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, envision low and Peyton talking after dinner while

0:30:18.280 --> 0:30:21.720
<v Speaker 1>drinking some brandy in Peyton's house and then maybe they'd

0:30:21.760 --> 0:30:24.080
<v Speaker 1>sneak out onto the golf course with some shovels and

0:30:24.520 --> 0:30:27.960
<v Speaker 1>start digging. That's kind of the vibe. I don't know

0:30:27.960 --> 0:30:30.480
<v Speaker 1>if that actually happened, but I kind of think it did.

0:30:30.720 --> 0:30:33.200
<v Speaker 2>Sure, why not just walk out the back door. It's fine,

0:30:33.280 --> 0:30:33.840
<v Speaker 2>it's right.

0:30:33.680 --> 0:30:36.400
<v Speaker 1>There now, Yeah, it's right there. We were liquored up

0:30:36.440 --> 0:30:40.160
<v Speaker 1>and we've been talking about golf architecture. Let's go, let's

0:30:40.360 --> 0:30:43.600
<v Speaker 1>do it. Put some things into practice here. So the

0:30:43.640 --> 0:30:46.560
<v Speaker 1>reason they were making changes to the course at Woking

0:30:47.080 --> 0:30:50.560
<v Speaker 1>was that they thought it was bad. Woking had been

0:30:50.560 --> 0:30:53.920
<v Speaker 1>built in eighteen ninety three. It's actually thought to be

0:30:53.960 --> 0:30:56.680
<v Speaker 1>the first course established in the English heathlands. It was

0:30:56.720 --> 0:31:01.680
<v Speaker 1>designed by a Scottish professional named Tom and Done was

0:31:01.760 --> 0:31:06.880
<v Speaker 1>the leading golf course designer of that great English golf

0:31:06.920 --> 0:31:12.240
<v Speaker 1>boom period. He designed a number of courses in England,

0:31:12.240 --> 0:31:15.360
<v Speaker 1>a remarkable number of courses in England in the eighteen

0:31:15.400 --> 0:31:18.440
<v Speaker 1>eighties and nineties, and like all golf course designers of

0:31:18.480 --> 0:31:22.200
<v Speaker 1>that period, he worked very quickly. He walked a site

0:31:22.200 --> 0:31:24.800
<v Speaker 1>for a day or two, made his recommendations and left.

0:31:25.280 --> 0:31:30.240
<v Speaker 1>And he also followed what was the prevailing philosophy of design,

0:31:30.800 --> 0:31:35.360
<v Speaker 1>which was that hazards should be positioned to penalize poor shots.

0:31:36.280 --> 0:31:39.160
<v Speaker 1>We've discussed this before as the penal school of design.

0:31:39.160 --> 0:31:39.840
<v Speaker 1>Do you remember this.

0:31:40.160 --> 0:31:42.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't think that's a bad take. I think

0:31:42.560 --> 0:31:44.680
<v Speaker 2>I think he's making some good point. I think if

0:31:44.680 --> 0:31:46.840
<v Speaker 2>you had a bad shot, that's when you should get penalized.

0:31:46.920 --> 0:31:49.120
<v Speaker 2>I'm kind of like the way this guy picks.

0:31:49.480 --> 0:31:50.480
<v Speaker 1>The distinction here.

0:31:50.560 --> 0:31:55.040
<v Speaker 2>That makes me though, right, yeah, because if the work

0:31:55.120 --> 0:31:57.920
<v Speaker 2>guys thought that was bad, then you know, that's it's

0:31:57.960 --> 0:32:01.320
<v Speaker 2>a whole other issue. So the no spin zone you

0:32:01.320 --> 0:32:03.280
<v Speaker 2>can accept. Yeah, you can set me straight.

0:32:03.520 --> 0:32:07.320
<v Speaker 1>You're a common sense guy. There is a certain common

0:32:07.360 --> 0:32:11.320
<v Speaker 1>sense appeal to this philosophy penalized bad shots. But I

0:32:11.600 --> 0:32:14.520
<v Speaker 1>think you know, the nuance here that we have to

0:32:14.560 --> 0:32:16.920
<v Speaker 1>keep in mind is that these hazards were positioned to

0:32:17.080 --> 0:32:21.080
<v Speaker 1>punish poor shots by poor players, not just to punish

0:32:21.120 --> 0:32:24.960
<v Speaker 1>bad shots, but to punish really bad shots. Right, and

0:32:25.040 --> 0:32:28.040
<v Speaker 1>so's that's I think an important point. But yeah, and so, yeah,

0:32:28.080 --> 0:32:32.120
<v Speaker 1>like penal courses weren't necessarily hard, they were just designed

0:32:32.120 --> 0:32:35.960
<v Speaker 1>with the intention of punishing those poor strikes by poor players.

0:32:36.200 --> 0:32:38.480
<v Speaker 1>So you'd have those linear cross bunkers in front of

0:32:38.520 --> 0:32:41.880
<v Speaker 1>tees to catch top drives. You'd have similar cross bunkers

0:32:41.920 --> 0:32:45.600
<v Speaker 1>in front of greens to catch topped approaches, and ideally

0:32:45.680 --> 0:32:48.160
<v Speaker 1>you'd have rough and additional bunkers along the sides of

0:32:48.200 --> 0:32:51.440
<v Speaker 1>the fairway to penalize hooks and slices. Some people now

0:32:51.480 --> 0:32:57.080
<v Speaker 1>call this the steeple chase style, and yeah, steeplechase the

0:32:57.480 --> 0:33:01.080
<v Speaker 1>golfers of the horses, Yeah we're jumping out over jumping

0:33:01.160 --> 0:33:03.920
<v Speaker 1>over cross bunkers. And that was the kind of design

0:33:03.960 --> 0:33:08.920
<v Speaker 1>that Tom Dunn originally implemented at Woking. For the most part,

0:33:09.320 --> 0:33:11.400
<v Speaker 1>I think that he did some things that were like

0:33:11.440 --> 0:33:14.800
<v Speaker 1>a little more interesting there. And if his routing is

0:33:14.880 --> 0:33:17.240
<v Speaker 1>I think mostly intact, and it's a really good routing.

0:33:17.320 --> 0:33:18.960
<v Speaker 1>I played the course a couple of months ago and

0:33:19.720 --> 0:33:22.960
<v Speaker 1>loved it. But it has been changed a lot over

0:33:22.960 --> 0:33:26.360
<v Speaker 1>the years, especially by John low and Stuart Payton. So

0:33:26.400 --> 0:33:29.600
<v Speaker 1>by nineteen oh one, we know that John Lowe in

0:33:29.640 --> 0:33:33.360
<v Speaker 1>particular had had it with this stuff. Right. We know

0:33:33.440 --> 0:33:36.680
<v Speaker 1>this because John low wrote a lot about it, right Peyton. Peyton,

0:33:36.720 --> 0:33:39.120
<v Speaker 1>to my knowledge, didn't do much writing, so we're not

0:33:39.120 --> 0:33:43.320
<v Speaker 1>sure of his perspective, but John low did. He had

0:33:43.360 --> 0:33:46.320
<v Speaker 1>noticed and many others had as well, that it simply

0:33:47.440 --> 0:33:51.320
<v Speaker 1>didn't produce interesting inland golf courses to design them in

0:33:51.360 --> 0:33:55.480
<v Speaker 1>this steeplechase style, especially for good players if you hit

0:33:55.520 --> 0:34:00.360
<v Speaker 1>it reliably long and straight. These steeplechase designs were not

0:34:00.480 --> 0:34:04.160
<v Speaker 1>challenging or compelling. They were too easy and above all

0:34:04.280 --> 0:34:07.360
<v Speaker 1>just thoughtless. Right. You didn't need to strategize. You just

0:34:07.440 --> 0:34:10.680
<v Speaker 1>had to find the fairway, find the green rinse, repeat.

0:34:10.719 --> 0:34:12.680
<v Speaker 1>And yes, if you were playing a match against a

0:34:12.680 --> 0:34:16.360
<v Speaker 1>poor player, you would win, and that would be great,

0:34:16.640 --> 0:34:20.120
<v Speaker 1>that would be fair, right, But the game you want

0:34:20.160 --> 0:34:22.920
<v Speaker 1>a little bit more of a challenge. Sure, it's understandable,

0:34:23.120 --> 0:34:27.200
<v Speaker 1>more challenge, more interest. You know, these courses just just

0:34:27.320 --> 0:34:30.399
<v Speaker 1>war thin after a while, was the argument that John

0:34:30.440 --> 0:34:36.560
<v Speaker 1>Lowe was making. You were free to like them. PJ. Now, Okay. Furthermore,

0:34:37.000 --> 0:34:40.080
<v Speaker 1>another point here is that low had picked up on

0:34:40.200 --> 0:34:43.480
<v Speaker 1>the fact that the old Scottish links like Saint Andrew's

0:34:44.400 --> 0:34:48.799
<v Speaker 1>were strategically complex and interesting, and this was This was

0:34:48.840 --> 0:34:52.920
<v Speaker 1>a key insight because the conventional wisdom was that Scottish

0:34:52.960 --> 0:35:00.480
<v Speaker 1>links courses didn't have any design content. They were just natural, right, random,

0:35:01.360 --> 0:35:06.840
<v Speaker 1>and many English gol Rather, many English golfers felt that

0:35:06.920 --> 0:35:11.600
<v Speaker 1>they could do better if they just applied their Victorian

0:35:11.760 --> 0:35:15.279
<v Speaker 1>intellects to the task of golf course design. Here are

0:35:15.320 --> 0:35:20.040
<v Speaker 1>these natural wild courses, and hey, if we just think

0:35:20.040 --> 0:35:23.680
<v Speaker 1>about it a little bit, we can design better ones. Well,

0:35:23.719 --> 0:35:28.520
<v Speaker 1>Lowe was saying, no, no, we're not doing better. Maybe

0:35:28.560 --> 0:35:31.880
<v Speaker 1>we should take another look at these old wild courses

0:35:32.040 --> 0:35:35.040
<v Speaker 1>which are so fun to play, and consider whether they

0:35:35.080 --> 0:35:42.080
<v Speaker 1>do actually have design characteristics worth emulating. Eventually, through his

0:35:42.120 --> 0:35:45.000
<v Speaker 1>study of Scottish links, Lowe came up with a brand

0:35:45.000 --> 0:35:48.560
<v Speaker 1>new theory of hazard placement. He said, we shouldn't be

0:35:48.560 --> 0:35:52.360
<v Speaker 1>placing hazards to punish poor strikes by poor players. We

0:35:52.400 --> 0:35:56.839
<v Speaker 1>should be placing them to punish almost great strikes by

0:35:56.920 --> 0:36:02.400
<v Speaker 1>good players. This was an intuitive idea, he was saying.

0:36:03.280 --> 0:36:05.200
<v Speaker 1>One of the main things that makes Saint Andrews so

0:36:05.280 --> 0:36:08.600
<v Speaker 1>interesting is that the bunkers are exactly where a good

0:36:08.680 --> 0:36:12.560
<v Speaker 1>golfer might want to play. Yeah, and this generates what

0:36:12.719 --> 0:36:17.200
<v Speaker 1>low called a contest of risks. In order to earn

0:36:17.239 --> 0:36:21.440
<v Speaker 1>the greatest advantage the best position in the fairway, you

0:36:21.480 --> 0:36:24.160
<v Speaker 1>don't just have to hit the ball well. You also

0:36:24.239 --> 0:36:26.680
<v Speaker 1>need to take a risk by playing near a hazard

0:36:27.200 --> 0:36:31.000
<v Speaker 1>without going into it. And you can certainly decline the

0:36:31.080 --> 0:36:34.200
<v Speaker 1>risk and play away from the hazard, but you won't

0:36:34.239 --> 0:36:36.880
<v Speaker 1>earn the greatest advantage on the whole for your next shot.

0:36:38.000 --> 0:36:41.640
<v Speaker 1>So here's how Low put it. He said, the true

0:36:41.640 --> 0:36:46.360
<v Speaker 1>hazard should draw play towards. It should invite the golfer

0:36:46.400 --> 0:36:49.320
<v Speaker 1>to come as near as he dare to the fire

0:36:50.160 --> 0:36:55.919
<v Speaker 1>without burning his fingers. Good sentence, Johnny Low. Good writing there.

0:36:56.840 --> 0:36:58.879
<v Speaker 1>So this was the foundation of what we now call

0:36:58.960 --> 0:37:02.960
<v Speaker 1>the strategic school of golf course design. Big idea number

0:37:03.000 --> 0:37:05.719
<v Speaker 1>two that set off the Golden Age. Does that all

0:37:05.719 --> 0:37:07.280
<v Speaker 1>feel pretty familiar to you at this point?

0:37:07.520 --> 0:37:10.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah, I mean we talked about that at length,

0:37:10.440 --> 0:37:15.120
<v Speaker 2>and it makes sense providing rewards for taking on risk. Again,

0:37:15.800 --> 0:37:18.719
<v Speaker 2>pretty logical, like this book line of thought we have

0:37:18.800 --> 0:37:19.600
<v Speaker 2>going on here.

0:37:22.360 --> 0:37:25.719
<v Speaker 1>Speaking of which, back to Woking, the fourth hole at

0:37:25.719 --> 0:37:29.959
<v Speaker 1>that course was originally a pretty simple straight par four

0:37:30.840 --> 0:37:34.560
<v Speaker 1>with a railroad on the right. There was a wide fairway,

0:37:35.280 --> 0:37:39.080
<v Speaker 1>no bunkers, some rough on the left, maybe some trees.

0:37:41.560 --> 0:37:45.839
<v Speaker 1>Then there was a classic Victorian cross bunker in front

0:37:45.840 --> 0:37:49.879
<v Speaker 1>of the green. So this was essentially an embodiment of

0:37:49.920 --> 0:37:55.160
<v Speaker 1>the penal school. The hazards were there to capture poor shots, hooks,

0:37:55.239 --> 0:38:01.000
<v Speaker 1>slices tops. So in nineteen oh two, Stuart Payton makes

0:38:01.000 --> 0:38:04.720
<v Speaker 1>a couple of alterations to the hole. One he builds

0:38:04.719 --> 0:38:07.719
<v Speaker 1>a pair of bunkers right in the middle of the

0:38:07.760 --> 0:38:13.680
<v Speaker 1>goddamn fairway. His inspiration here is the Principal's nose bunker

0:38:13.760 --> 0:38:16.520
<v Speaker 1>complex on the sixteenth hole at Saint Andrew's. Okay, So

0:38:16.960 --> 0:38:21.279
<v Speaker 1>basically what he's doing is recreating the strategic geometry of

0:38:22.239 --> 0:38:24.800
<v Speaker 1>that par four at the old course. Now, the center

0:38:24.840 --> 0:38:28.720
<v Speaker 1>line bunkers are obviously a controversial change for the members.

0:38:29.360 --> 0:38:31.640
<v Speaker 1>They say, why in the world would you put a

0:38:31.680 --> 0:38:34.719
<v Speaker 1>hazard right where I want to play my ball? But

0:38:34.840 --> 0:38:39.080
<v Speaker 1>for Peyton and Low, that was exactly the point, right.

0:38:40.120 --> 0:38:44.960
<v Speaker 1>So other key change that Peyton makes to this fourth

0:38:44.960 --> 0:38:49.239
<v Speaker 1>hole is redesigning the green complex. He takes out that

0:38:49.360 --> 0:38:54.240
<v Speaker 1>fronting cross bunker and he puts in one bunker smaller

0:38:55.160 --> 0:38:59.360
<v Speaker 1>at the left front corner of the green. That bunker

0:38:59.400 --> 0:39:02.080
<v Speaker 1>gets in the way of approaches from the left side

0:39:02.120 --> 0:39:06.000
<v Speaker 1>of the fairway. That's the safe side of the fairway, right, Okay, Yeah,

0:39:06.000 --> 0:39:08.000
<v Speaker 1>Because you have the Principal's nose in the middle of

0:39:08.040 --> 0:39:11.799
<v Speaker 1>the fairway and then you have the railroad out of

0:39:11.840 --> 0:39:14.760
<v Speaker 1>bounce on the right. So you have two main options.

0:39:15.040 --> 0:39:17.759
<v Speaker 1>You can try to thread your drive between the Principal's

0:39:17.760 --> 0:39:21.120
<v Speaker 1>nose and the railroad, or you can bail out to

0:39:21.160 --> 0:39:24.600
<v Speaker 1>the left, to the left of the Principal's nose, where

0:39:24.640 --> 0:39:27.160
<v Speaker 1>you don't have to contend with the bunker and the

0:39:27.239 --> 0:39:34.080
<v Speaker 1>railroad right now, Furthermore, the green tilts from back to

0:39:34.160 --> 0:39:36.359
<v Speaker 1>front and a little bit left to right, so if

0:39:36.400 --> 0:39:40.279
<v Speaker 1>you're hitting from that left side of the fairway, you

0:39:40.440 --> 0:39:43.160
<v Speaker 1>not only have to carry the new bunker at the

0:39:43.200 --> 0:39:46.240
<v Speaker 1>front left corner of the green, but you're also dealing

0:39:46.239 --> 0:39:49.319
<v Speaker 1>with a green that runs away from you. It's much

0:39:49.360 --> 0:39:52.759
<v Speaker 1>preferable to be able to land your approach short and

0:39:52.880 --> 0:39:55.640
<v Speaker 1>let it run onto the green. But you can only

0:39:55.719 --> 0:39:59.359
<v Speaker 1>do that if you play between the Principal's nose and

0:39:59.400 --> 0:40:00.000
<v Speaker 1>the railroad.

0:40:00.520 --> 0:40:03.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure, I'm sure the people who had never experienced

0:40:03.480 --> 0:40:07.160
<v Speaker 2>this before just loved this. I'm sure the general public

0:40:07.200 --> 0:40:10.319
<v Speaker 2>were huge fans of what was going on here. I

0:40:10.360 --> 0:40:11.839
<v Speaker 2>can't imagine.

0:40:12.400 --> 0:40:13.800
<v Speaker 1>People were in and uproar.

0:40:13.960 --> 0:40:20.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I riots even pitchforks fire all of those medieval

0:40:20.800 --> 0:40:21.440
<v Speaker 2>times things.

0:40:22.160 --> 0:40:25.880
<v Speaker 1>There were many things written about how pissed off. Woking

0:40:25.960 --> 0:40:29.279
<v Speaker 1>Golf club members were about this change to the whole.

0:40:29.480 --> 0:40:32.399
<v Speaker 2>That's great, get the people going, it's provocative.

0:40:33.920 --> 0:40:39.280
<v Speaker 1>But ultimately, somehow the changes did remain. I don't know why,

0:40:40.080 --> 0:40:42.560
<v Speaker 1>but they stayed and they're still there today.

0:40:42.200 --> 0:40:42.480
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

0:40:43.320 --> 0:40:48.440
<v Speaker 1>In the meantime, this kind of you know, hullabaloo found

0:40:48.480 --> 0:40:52.160
<v Speaker 1>its way around the English golf world. A guy named

0:40:52.160 --> 0:40:55.720
<v Speaker 1>Tom Simpson visited Woking and was actually inspired to become

0:40:55.760 --> 0:40:58.480
<v Speaker 1>a golf architect by seeing the hole for the first time,

0:40:58.520 --> 0:41:01.480
<v Speaker 1>and he went on to become a significant golf architect

0:41:01.520 --> 0:41:06.160
<v Speaker 1>in his own right and a golf architecture writer. Amazing.

0:41:06.560 --> 0:41:10.600
<v Speaker 2>Sure, you know, take inspiration for anywhere. I can just

0:41:10.680 --> 0:41:16.720
<v Speaker 2>imagine these newspapers getting passed around all of South London

0:41:17.560 --> 0:41:20.319
<v Speaker 2>being like, can you believe this? Can you believe what's

0:41:20.360 --> 0:41:24.560
<v Speaker 2>going on over here? I could just yeah, this sounds fantastic.

0:41:26.280 --> 0:41:28.320
<v Speaker 1>So this is It turned out to be a major

0:41:28.360 --> 0:41:31.760
<v Speaker 1>moment in history, right, a clear instance of something changing

0:41:32.400 --> 0:41:33.279
<v Speaker 1>in the zeitgeist.

0:41:33.440 --> 0:41:33.680
<v Speaker 2>Yep.

0:41:34.239 --> 0:41:37.880
<v Speaker 1>Now, not all Golden Edge courses from that point forward

0:41:37.920 --> 0:41:41.239
<v Speaker 1>were strategic, but I think it's fair to say that

0:41:41.280 --> 0:41:45.320
<v Speaker 1>all the significant ones were influenced by this new tension

0:41:45.360 --> 0:41:49.120
<v Speaker 1>between strategic and penal. Okay, and architects had to make

0:41:49.160 --> 0:41:52.800
<v Speaker 1>a choice, Now what am I about? Am I about

0:41:52.800 --> 0:41:56.279
<v Speaker 1>strategic golf or am I about penal golf? Or am

0:41:56.280 --> 0:41:58.200
<v Speaker 1>I saying that we have a mixture of both?

0:41:58.719 --> 0:42:04.000
<v Speaker 2>So was that kind of like a sweeping kind of

0:42:04.080 --> 0:42:07.879
<v Speaker 2>move across everything or was that more gradual, Like did

0:42:07.920 --> 0:42:12.400
<v Speaker 2>everybody just adopt this new line of thinking immediately or

0:42:12.440 --> 0:42:14.200
<v Speaker 2>did it kind of creep up on people?

0:42:14.680 --> 0:42:18.719
<v Speaker 1>It crept up on people, But I think by the

0:42:18.840 --> 0:42:24.040
<v Speaker 1>nineteen twenties, the strategic school of design had won.

0:42:24.680 --> 0:42:27.359
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Like if you were to put a percentage on it,

0:42:27.560 --> 0:42:30.680
<v Speaker 2>like by nineteen twenty it was like eighty twenty.

0:42:30.719 --> 0:42:32.719
<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure you could put a percentage on it.

0:42:33.239 --> 0:42:37.000
<v Speaker 1>I think if we're talking about the significant golf courses,

0:42:37.280 --> 0:42:39.839
<v Speaker 1>what people considered the really good golf courses, the ones

0:42:39.880 --> 0:42:45.120
<v Speaker 1>that were made by the top architects, then a majority,

0:42:45.280 --> 0:42:50.200
<v Speaker 1>for sure, sure you could say we're strategic school golf courses.

0:42:51.520 --> 0:42:55.040
<v Speaker 1>But it's not always that simple. Like I don't think

0:42:55.040 --> 0:42:59.440
<v Speaker 1>Donald Ross, for instance, is consistently strategic at all. In

0:42:59.480 --> 0:43:02.520
<v Speaker 1>some cases, it's clear that he understood how to make

0:43:02.560 --> 0:43:06.120
<v Speaker 1>a strategic hole, but he didn't always do it. The

0:43:06.160 --> 0:43:09.080
<v Speaker 1>same with Seth Rayner. Right, A lot of the templates

0:43:09.080 --> 0:43:13.280
<v Speaker 1>are not strategic. Some of them clearly are, but others

0:43:13.640 --> 0:43:16.919
<v Speaker 1>don't seem to be, and so you know, these things

0:43:16.960 --> 0:43:20.440
<v Speaker 1>are always a little bit chaotic. But I would say

0:43:21.320 --> 0:43:24.560
<v Speaker 1>that the introduction of this idea kind of changed everything.

0:43:25.360 --> 0:43:28.600
<v Speaker 1>It didn't mean that everybody immediately adopted it, but it

0:43:28.680 --> 0:43:31.960
<v Speaker 1>meant that there was now an understanding and a discussion

0:43:32.800 --> 0:43:36.600
<v Speaker 1>about how to strategically arrange golf court, golf golf holes

0:43:36.600 --> 0:43:37.360
<v Speaker 1>and golf courses.

0:43:38.760 --> 0:43:39.239
<v Speaker 2>Makes sense.

0:43:39.520 --> 0:43:42.640
<v Speaker 1>I think that's a big deal, and that tension really

0:43:43.320 --> 0:43:49.120
<v Speaker 1>ended up helping to define the entire era. Okay, so

0:43:49.239 --> 0:43:51.759
<v Speaker 1>the third and final moment of nineteen oh one that

0:43:51.800 --> 0:43:55.080
<v Speaker 1>we're going to talk about is Harry Colt arriving at

0:43:55.120 --> 0:44:00.120
<v Speaker 1>Sunningdale Golf Club and beginning his job as secretary. So,

0:43:59.800 --> 0:44:01.720
<v Speaker 1>like so many of the characters that we've talked about

0:44:01.719 --> 0:44:05.080
<v Speaker 1>so far, Colt was educated at Cambridge University. He was

0:44:05.120 --> 0:44:08.720
<v Speaker 1>an intellectual kind of guy, very in touch with the

0:44:08.800 --> 0:44:13.440
<v Speaker 1>latest ideas in English golf. Now, as a reminder, the

0:44:13.520 --> 0:44:16.640
<v Speaker 1>old course at Sunningdale had just been built by Willie

0:44:16.640 --> 0:44:19.759
<v Speaker 1>Park Jr. It was by far the most expensive and

0:44:19.840 --> 0:44:22.920
<v Speaker 1>ambitious golf course construction project to that point in history.

0:44:23.400 --> 0:44:25.440
<v Speaker 1>You could even say it was the first true work

0:44:25.440 --> 0:44:29.800
<v Speaker 1>of golf course architecture. But over the next several years

0:44:29.840 --> 0:44:33.440
<v Speaker 1>Harry Colt made a lot of changes to Sunningdale. For

0:44:33.480 --> 0:44:37.840
<v Speaker 1>one thing, he did follow John Lowe's new philosophy of

0:44:37.880 --> 0:44:43.080
<v Speaker 1>hazard placement, so he removed some cross bunkers and replaced

0:44:43.120 --> 0:44:47.440
<v Speaker 1>them with more strategically positioned bunkers. And as he rebuilt

0:44:47.440 --> 0:44:54.000
<v Speaker 1>these features he did something new and very interesting. He

0:44:54.400 --> 0:45:00.359
<v Speaker 1>intentionally shaped them to appear natural. He gave them a

0:45:00.360 --> 0:45:03.080
<v Speaker 1>low profile right so that they blended in with the

0:45:03.120 --> 0:45:05.680
<v Speaker 1>lay of the land. They didn't stand up out of

0:45:05.719 --> 0:45:09.319
<v Speaker 1>the terrain. They were set into the land, and he

0:45:09.400 --> 0:45:15.200
<v Speaker 1>gave them an irregular, ragged esthetic that mimicked the natural

0:45:15.280 --> 0:45:21.040
<v Speaker 1>sandy wastes in the surrounding heathland. This idea of making

0:45:21.200 --> 0:45:26.600
<v Speaker 1>artificial features appear natural was again new right at inland

0:45:26.640 --> 0:45:29.920
<v Speaker 1>courses built in the eighteen eighties and nineties. Bunkers and

0:45:30.040 --> 0:45:35.920
<v Speaker 1>other manufactured hazards were what you might call functional in appearance.

0:45:36.719 --> 0:45:39.920
<v Speaker 1>They weren't shaped for any particular effect. You know, if

0:45:40.000 --> 0:45:43.120
<v Speaker 1>you built a bunker, you would just dig out some

0:45:43.239 --> 0:45:45.960
<v Speaker 1>dirt in a straight line and stack it up on

0:45:45.960 --> 0:45:49.680
<v Speaker 1>one edge. This was more or less the process followed

0:45:49.680 --> 0:45:54.319
<v Speaker 1>initially at Sunningdale in Willie Park's design, though to my

0:45:54.400 --> 0:45:57.360
<v Speaker 1>eye he did make at least some effort toward a

0:45:57.400 --> 0:46:03.360
<v Speaker 1>pleasing esthetic. But Cole clearly brought a more specific attitude

0:46:03.440 --> 0:46:09.759
<v Speaker 1>about shaping to Sunningdale. He was pursuing naturalism. Now, we

0:46:09.800 --> 0:46:12.279
<v Speaker 1>don't have a lot of information about why Coult in

0:46:12.280 --> 0:46:17.200
<v Speaker 1>particular turned toward naturalism in golf architecture. Certainly we know

0:46:17.360 --> 0:46:19.600
<v Speaker 1>that he was one of the first to practice it,

0:46:20.200 --> 0:46:24.400
<v Speaker 1>maybe the first to become completely proficient at it, skillful

0:46:24.400 --> 0:46:28.359
<v Speaker 1>at it, and certainly the most influential exponent of it.

0:46:28.840 --> 0:46:31.840
<v Speaker 1>We know that cult had a direct influence on Charles

0:46:31.880 --> 0:46:34.520
<v Speaker 1>Hugh Allison and Alistair Mackenzie because he worked with them,

0:46:34.560 --> 0:46:38.560
<v Speaker 1>he later brought them into his architecture firm, and then

0:46:38.600 --> 0:46:41.640
<v Speaker 1>Allison and Mackenzie exported those ideas across the world, right

0:46:41.960 --> 0:46:47.160
<v Speaker 1>to the US, to Australia, Japan, etc. Mackenzie was especially

0:46:47.239 --> 0:46:51.680
<v Speaker 1>enthusiastic about all this. He compared naturalism in golf architecture

0:46:51.719 --> 0:46:56.000
<v Speaker 1>to battlefield camouflage, which proved to be a very influential

0:46:56.040 --> 0:47:00.200
<v Speaker 1>formulation of this idea, you know, the idea being that

0:47:00.520 --> 0:47:03.960
<v Speaker 1>military fortifications would be blended into the landscape so that

0:47:04.000 --> 0:47:08.480
<v Speaker 1>the enemy couldn't see them. Mackenzie thought about bringing this

0:47:08.640 --> 0:47:12.080
<v Speaker 1>to golf architecture that enemy, I guess, being the.

0:47:12.000 --> 0:47:14.600
<v Speaker 2>Player, that is quite a way of thinking.

0:47:16.000 --> 0:47:19.000
<v Speaker 1>It's interesting, isn't it. And and Mackenzie did some of

0:47:19.040 --> 0:47:22.600
<v Speaker 1>this work in the in the in wars, in the

0:47:22.680 --> 0:47:25.040
<v Speaker 1>in the Boer War in particular, which is a semi

0:47:25.040 --> 0:47:28.680
<v Speaker 1>obscure war these days. But but he he helped to

0:47:29.680 --> 0:47:34.320
<v Speaker 1>conceptualize battlefield fortifications that blended into the landscape. If you

0:47:34.360 --> 0:47:37.520
<v Speaker 1>think about it, that's kind of what naturalists golf architects

0:47:37.520 --> 0:47:39.960
<v Speaker 1>are trying to do. At golf architects are trying to

0:47:40.000 --> 0:47:43.880
<v Speaker 1>create artificial features that aren't noticeable as artificial.

0:47:44.360 --> 0:47:48.640
<v Speaker 2>Everything I learned about Alistair Mackenzie just goes further and

0:47:48.680 --> 0:47:51.279
<v Speaker 2>further down a rabbit hole that I never expected to

0:47:51.360 --> 0:47:55.800
<v Speaker 2>actually go down. This guy's out here doing augusta national

0:47:55.880 --> 0:47:57.640
<v Speaker 2>but at the same time going like, oh, I'm going

0:47:57.719 --> 0:47:58.919
<v Speaker 2>to go win a war too.

0:48:00.520 --> 0:48:00.680
<v Speaker 1>Well.

0:48:00.719 --> 0:48:03.640
<v Speaker 2>He did the war thing well first, but yeah, like

0:48:03.760 --> 0:48:04.560
<v Speaker 2>same guy.

0:48:04.840 --> 0:48:08.600
<v Speaker 1>Same guy, Yeah, same guy. He had quite a life.

0:48:08.719 --> 0:48:09.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, clearly.

0:48:10.000 --> 0:48:13.719
<v Speaker 1>I mean, just imagine traveling as he did from England

0:48:13.800 --> 0:48:16.560
<v Speaker 1>to Australia. Yeah, I mean that's before planes.

0:48:16.840 --> 0:48:20.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's already too much for me. So he had

0:48:20.400 --> 0:48:23.000
<v Speaker 2>a lot of time on on boats, I guess to

0:48:23.200 --> 0:48:27.640
<v Speaker 2>think about his war strategies and also golf courses. Yep,

0:48:27.680 --> 0:48:30.200
<v Speaker 2>A true renaissance man. We talked about Renaissance a lot

0:48:30.239 --> 0:48:33.120
<v Speaker 2>already in this podcast. I mean, I don't, I don't

0:48:33.160 --> 0:48:34.480
<v Speaker 2>know how you could get better than that.

0:48:35.160 --> 0:48:37.840
<v Speaker 1>He's a fascinating figure. You know, he starts in England,

0:48:38.320 --> 0:48:42.480
<v Speaker 1>he ends up in you know, Santa Cruz, California, living

0:48:42.480 --> 0:48:44.080
<v Speaker 1>in a house at Pasa Tiempo.

0:48:45.560 --> 0:48:48.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't, I don't know. I think that might need

0:48:48.239 --> 0:48:51.480
<v Speaker 2>to maybe run the Masters next year. Golf Architecture one

0:48:51.520 --> 0:48:53.359
<v Speaker 2>O one. Just the biography.

0:48:53.920 --> 0:48:57.640
<v Speaker 1>McKenzie, Yeah, we've already we've already given you too many

0:48:57.719 --> 0:48:59.359
<v Speaker 1>tantalizing details about him.

0:48:59.520 --> 0:49:01.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't know it's left, but I want to

0:49:01.400 --> 0:49:01.799
<v Speaker 2>find out.

0:49:02.440 --> 0:49:08.000
<v Speaker 1>Oh. Fascinating guy, Yeah, endlessly fascinating to me. So all right,

0:49:08.640 --> 0:49:14.000
<v Speaker 1>naturalism comes into golf architecture through Harry Cult. Now, as

0:49:14.040 --> 0:49:17.080
<v Speaker 1>with strategic design, it would be wrong to say that

0:49:17.280 --> 0:49:21.200
<v Speaker 1>all the courses from that point on were naturalists. You

0:49:21.200 --> 0:49:25.000
<v Speaker 1>could say, though, that all the serious courses had some

0:49:25.560 --> 0:49:30.799
<v Speaker 1>relationship to naturalism, either embracing it or resisting it. But

0:49:32.760 --> 0:49:35.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, I think the bigger and more interesting question

0:49:35.600 --> 0:49:38.680
<v Speaker 1>here is where this idea of naturalism in golf architecture

0:49:38.719 --> 0:49:42.680
<v Speaker 1>came from. Aside from Harry Colt's brain, what.

0:49:42.920 --> 0:49:49.880
<v Speaker 2>Was besides one day to do it? Like? What prompted it? Yeah?

0:49:49.960 --> 0:49:52.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's not how humans behave. They don't just come

0:49:53.040 --> 0:49:55.160
<v Speaker 1>up with a brand new idea completely on their own

0:49:55.400 --> 0:50:00.239
<v Speaker 1>and use it to revolutionize everything. No, there is there

0:50:00.280 --> 0:50:03.080
<v Speaker 1>is a source for this, So you know, I have

0:50:03.239 --> 0:50:06.040
<v Speaker 1>and a couple of others have had some theories on

0:50:06.120 --> 0:50:12.000
<v Speaker 1>this one. This is another example of links golf informing

0:50:12.160 --> 0:50:16.799
<v Speaker 1>inland golf architecture in the Golden Age. Part of what

0:50:16.880 --> 0:50:20.160
<v Speaker 1>makes links golf so compelling is that it's natural. Right,

0:50:20.200 --> 0:50:23.880
<v Speaker 1>It feels like you're contending with Mother Nature rather than

0:50:23.920 --> 0:50:28.200
<v Speaker 1>an artificial construct. Okay, and that's pleasing and satisfying. Right

0:50:28.280 --> 0:50:31.040
<v Speaker 1>that you feel like you're a you're a burly man

0:50:31.080 --> 0:50:33.080
<v Speaker 1>out in nature or a burly woman out of nature.

0:50:33.520 --> 0:50:33.800
<v Speaker 2>Sure.

0:50:34.080 --> 0:50:35.800
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if women often like to think of

0:50:35.840 --> 0:50:38.799
<v Speaker 1>themselves as burly. But let's just go with it. You're

0:50:38.840 --> 0:50:43.120
<v Speaker 1>an adventurous person out there, and you're contending with nature

0:50:43.200 --> 0:50:47.280
<v Speaker 1>as opposed to some little contrivance that an architecture architect

0:50:47.320 --> 0:50:50.200
<v Speaker 1>has come up with, and that can be fun. Right.

0:50:50.760 --> 0:50:53.719
<v Speaker 1>So when you go to inland courses, though, you have

0:50:53.760 --> 0:50:56.720
<v Speaker 1>a problem because they can't be as natural as links courses,

0:50:57.520 --> 0:51:00.600
<v Speaker 1>because the land needs to be altered to be playable

0:51:01.200 --> 0:51:05.840
<v Speaker 1>and to be interestingly playable. Right, the links naturally suits

0:51:05.880 --> 0:51:09.000
<v Speaker 1>itself to golf. You don't have to change much, and

0:51:09.040 --> 0:51:12.320
<v Speaker 1>so you know, links courses can be natural. Inland courses

0:51:12.480 --> 0:51:16.799
<v Speaker 1>have to be engineered in some way. But with some

0:51:17.120 --> 0:51:21.399
<v Speaker 1>artistry and effort in construction, we can at least make

0:51:21.480 --> 0:51:25.759
<v Speaker 1>inland courses appear natural. And that was the insight and

0:51:25.800 --> 0:51:30.040
<v Speaker 1>the goal of Golden age architects, Harry Colt in particular.

0:51:33.120 --> 0:51:36.960
<v Speaker 2>Is just to get the feeling of the links land,

0:51:37.200 --> 0:51:40.840
<v Speaker 2>like as the player like what, I don't know.

0:51:41.120 --> 0:51:43.800
<v Speaker 1>I think it's just to get the feeling of mother nature,

0:51:44.040 --> 0:51:47.840
<v Speaker 1>okaycts some architects we're trying to imitate the look of

0:51:47.880 --> 0:51:50.279
<v Speaker 1>the links land, right. Sometimes they do try to do

0:51:50.440 --> 0:51:54.040
<v Speaker 1>that specifically, but I think it's more like trying to

0:51:54.080 --> 0:51:57.600
<v Speaker 1>adapt the artificial features to the surrounding landscape in a

0:51:57.640 --> 0:52:02.200
<v Speaker 1>convincing way. So engineering the golf course to be playable,

0:52:02.520 --> 0:52:05.319
<v Speaker 1>to have turf at the very least, right, Yeah, and

0:52:05.719 --> 0:52:09.200
<v Speaker 1>that's important. Yeah, and to have some interesting undulations and stuff,

0:52:09.600 --> 0:52:11.759
<v Speaker 1>but also to be skillful enough when you're building this

0:52:11.840 --> 0:52:15.000
<v Speaker 1>stuff to make it appear as though it was always there.

0:52:15.840 --> 0:52:19.600
<v Speaker 2>I've never been to Scotland. Obviously it's great and all

0:52:19.680 --> 0:52:24.720
<v Speaker 2>that is that, Like, I don't know in your personal opinion.

0:52:25.200 --> 0:52:28.040
<v Speaker 2>Personal opinions are hot these days in golf, and your

0:52:28.080 --> 0:52:32.480
<v Speaker 2>personal opinion, like, is that mandatory? Is that important to

0:52:32.560 --> 0:52:35.200
<v Speaker 2>have some level of naturalism?

0:52:35.600 --> 0:52:39.120
<v Speaker 1>No? I don't think so. Okay, it is my personal preference.

0:52:40.080 --> 0:52:43.200
<v Speaker 1>It's not mandatory though, and many people disagree with me

0:52:43.280 --> 0:52:46.800
<v Speaker 1>about that personal preference. Many people say it is okay

0:52:47.520 --> 0:52:49.759
<v Speaker 1>for a golf course to be overtly manufactured.

0:52:50.080 --> 0:52:50.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:52:50.320 --> 0:52:52.080
<v Speaker 1>And you know, if you look at a lot of

0:52:52.160 --> 0:52:55.320
<v Speaker 1>McDonald and Rainer courses, if you look at Langford and

0:52:55.360 --> 0:53:00.160
<v Speaker 1>Moreau courses like Lasonia Links, they don't look natural, really,

0:53:00.600 --> 0:53:04.040
<v Speaker 1>the features don't look natural, and yet they're very pleasing

0:53:04.040 --> 0:53:06.640
<v Speaker 1>to play. And so that would be the counter argument,

0:53:07.640 --> 0:53:11.000
<v Speaker 1>but it was the belief of Harry Colt and especially

0:53:11.040 --> 0:53:14.640
<v Speaker 1>how Alistair McKenzie and Tom Simpson and others, that the

0:53:14.719 --> 0:53:18.480
<v Speaker 1>goal was to fool the player, essentially deceive the player

0:53:19.080 --> 0:53:22.040
<v Speaker 1>into believing that the features of the golf course were natural.

0:53:24.080 --> 0:53:27.640
<v Speaker 1>All right, So what's another source of naturalism in golf

0:53:27.719 --> 0:53:31.560
<v Speaker 1>architecture aside from links golf? I think that this was

0:53:31.760 --> 0:53:36.080
<v Speaker 1>very much part of the general naturalist movement in English

0:53:36.080 --> 0:53:39.080
<v Speaker 1>culture at the time, even in global culture. Right in

0:53:39.120 --> 0:53:42.120
<v Speaker 1>the US, there was a naturalist movement that I used

0:53:42.120 --> 0:53:45.319
<v Speaker 1>to teach my students about in literature class with with

0:53:45.360 --> 0:53:48.120
<v Speaker 1>Emerson and Threaux and all those sorts of people. Right,

0:53:49.440 --> 0:53:53.240
<v Speaker 1>this is about the appreciation of nature, the esthetic beauty

0:53:53.760 --> 0:53:58.680
<v Speaker 1>of the wilderness in its untouched state, the physical health

0:53:58.719 --> 0:54:03.520
<v Speaker 1>benefits of being in nature. These weren't new ideas, obviously,

0:54:04.160 --> 0:54:08.600
<v Speaker 1>but they were very much gaining cultural power through the

0:54:08.680 --> 0:54:15.440
<v Speaker 1>nineteenth century, especially as industrialization and urbanization we're speeding up

0:54:15.719 --> 0:54:18.800
<v Speaker 1>in England more than anywhere else in the world, aside

0:54:18.840 --> 0:54:21.600
<v Speaker 1>from to an extent, certain places in the US. Right,

0:54:21.680 --> 0:54:28.920
<v Speaker 1>England was the epicenter of global industrialization. As this was happening,

0:54:28.920 --> 0:54:32.600
<v Speaker 1>there was a strong sense among writers and artists and

0:54:32.600 --> 0:54:38.319
<v Speaker 1>philosophers and wokesters that human beings needed to get back

0:54:38.320 --> 0:54:41.319
<v Speaker 1>to nature. And the catch all term for this is

0:54:41.680 --> 0:54:44.520
<v Speaker 1>the romantic movement Romanticism, but I think that might be

0:54:44.560 --> 0:54:49.000
<v Speaker 1>a little bit too broad. Naturalism, I think is the

0:54:49.040 --> 0:54:53.000
<v Speaker 1>best word for it now in building architecture, right, so

0:54:53.040 --> 0:54:56.560
<v Speaker 1>we're getting closer to golf architecture now. In building architecture.

0:54:57.040 --> 0:55:00.840
<v Speaker 1>Naturalism found expression in what's called the Arts and Craft's movement,

0:55:01.520 --> 0:55:03.960
<v Speaker 1>And this was a style of art and architecture in

0:55:04.000 --> 0:55:08.920
<v Speaker 1>the late eighteen hundreds that emphasized sense of place. It

0:55:08.960 --> 0:55:13.920
<v Speaker 1>emphasized natural, organic shapes and materials. Basically, it was a

0:55:13.960 --> 0:55:20.600
<v Speaker 1>reaction against the perceived over mechanization of artistic products. And

0:55:20.640 --> 0:55:22.960
<v Speaker 1>I'll give credit to the historian Tom mic Wood for

0:55:23.360 --> 0:55:27.080
<v Speaker 1>documenting the connections between the Arts and Crafts movement and

0:55:27.200 --> 0:55:30.359
<v Speaker 1>naturalist golf architecture. There are many many connections, right, These

0:55:30.760 --> 0:55:32.799
<v Speaker 1>all these guys were friends with each other, you know,

0:55:32.920 --> 0:55:37.680
<v Speaker 1>around London. The people who were spearheading these movements naturalism

0:55:37.719 --> 0:55:41.480
<v Speaker 1>and golf architecture, Arts and crafts and building architecture, they

0:55:41.480 --> 0:55:44.160
<v Speaker 1>were all part of the same social circle and reading

0:55:44.160 --> 0:55:50.239
<v Speaker 1>each other's stuff. So that is a big deal there, right,

0:55:50.320 --> 0:55:54.560
<v Speaker 1>the general surge of romanticism and naturalism as a reaction

0:55:54.719 --> 0:56:00.960
<v Speaker 1>to industrialization and urbanization that came out in the first

0:56:01.000 --> 0:56:03.279
<v Speaker 1>decade of the twentieth century in golf architecture.

0:56:04.560 --> 0:56:06.799
<v Speaker 2>Okay, I never I never thought about it that way.

0:56:07.000 --> 0:56:08.680
<v Speaker 2>I had no reason to think about it that way.

0:56:08.719 --> 0:56:11.480
<v Speaker 2>But now that you lay it out there, it makes sense.

0:56:11.760 --> 0:56:14.880
<v Speaker 2>I get it that. You know, people are tired of

0:56:14.920 --> 0:56:16.560
<v Speaker 2>the industrial revolution at this point.

0:56:16.600 --> 0:56:19.440
<v Speaker 1>Sure, did you learn about this much in school? The

0:56:19.560 --> 0:56:22.520
<v Speaker 1>romantic movement, the naturalist movement is this is this registering

0:56:22.560 --> 0:56:24.799
<v Speaker 1>for you? Is a framework? Yes you already have.

0:56:25.040 --> 0:56:27.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, this is unlocking things that I haven't thought

0:56:27.520 --> 0:56:32.000
<v Speaker 2>about in a long time. So yeah, I definitely my brain.

0:56:32.040 --> 0:56:34.200
<v Speaker 2>You can probably see the wheels shirting in my brain

0:56:34.280 --> 0:56:38.080
<v Speaker 2>right now. But yeah, I'm bringing with some images of notebooks,

0:56:38.360 --> 0:56:38.600
<v Speaker 2>you know.

0:56:39.200 --> 0:56:46.879
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm with them during during final exams. Yeah exactly, sure, Yeah, well, yeah,

0:56:46.920 --> 0:56:48.960
<v Speaker 1>I hope it doesn't bring back too much trauma. But

0:56:49.280 --> 0:56:51.160
<v Speaker 1>but yes, this is a key connection to make right.

0:56:51.239 --> 0:56:55.879
<v Speaker 1>Golf architecture and golf are not isolated from history. They

0:56:55.920 --> 0:57:00.120
<v Speaker 1>are part of broader history. They're part of culture, and

0:57:00.480 --> 0:57:04.560
<v Speaker 1>they react to those influences from history and from culture,

0:57:05.040 --> 0:57:09.480
<v Speaker 1>and so when anything changes in golf architecture, we have

0:57:09.520 --> 0:57:12.239
<v Speaker 1>to consider what else is happening around it, because we're

0:57:12.239 --> 0:57:17.040
<v Speaker 1>all members of the same world and inevitably influenced by

0:57:17.520 --> 0:57:20.400
<v Speaker 1>what we're seeing in other domains of life, even if

0:57:20.400 --> 0:57:23.480
<v Speaker 1>we're not really conscious of being influenced in that way. Right.

0:57:24.960 --> 0:57:27.919
<v Speaker 1>But I do think that the broader underlying factor here

0:57:28.560 --> 0:57:32.520
<v Speaker 1>is that golf architecture in the early twentieth century suddenly

0:57:32.560 --> 0:57:36.439
<v Speaker 1>took on the status of an art. There was more

0:57:36.520 --> 0:57:40.320
<v Speaker 1>money behind it. It had become a higher status pursuit.

0:57:41.240 --> 0:57:46.160
<v Speaker 1>It was being practiced not just by working class Scottish

0:57:46.480 --> 0:57:51.360
<v Speaker 1>professional golfers, it was being practiced by middle and upper class,

0:57:51.760 --> 0:57:57.200
<v Speaker 1>often snobby Oxford and Cambridge educated Englishmen. Not to stereotype

0:57:57.240 --> 0:58:00.280
<v Speaker 1>too much, but this is what was happening, and they

0:58:00.320 --> 0:58:06.040
<v Speaker 1>were bringing their tastes into the discipline. Naturalism. This this

0:58:06.040 --> 0:58:11.520
<v Speaker 1>this desire for the complexity of strategy, right beyond just fairness.

0:58:12.560 --> 0:58:16.320
<v Speaker 1>This this idea that that you could engineer a landscape

0:58:16.360 --> 0:58:19.800
<v Speaker 1>and then make it appear natural afterwards. All of these were,

0:58:20.560 --> 0:58:24.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, strike me as very typical lines of thinking

0:58:24.720 --> 0:58:27.760
<v Speaker 1>among this class of people in this location in the world,

0:58:28.200 --> 0:58:30.360
<v Speaker 1>and that, more than anything is I think what's set

0:58:30.400 --> 0:58:33.720
<v Speaker 1>off the Golden Age of golf architecture. New people with

0:58:33.800 --> 0:58:39.240
<v Speaker 1>a new perspective were taking the craft seriously, and that

0:58:39.360 --> 0:58:42.200
<v Speaker 1>is that is a complex legacy. Just because it's called

0:58:42.240 --> 0:58:44.760
<v Speaker 1>the Golden Age doesn't mean that we can't criticize some

0:58:44.880 --> 0:58:49.360
<v Speaker 1>aspects of it. One indisputable legacy of the Golden Age,

0:58:49.400 --> 0:58:52.240
<v Speaker 1>which we made glancing reference to toward toward the beginning

0:58:52.240 --> 0:58:55.960
<v Speaker 1>of this episode, is that golf became more expensive to play.

0:58:56.120 --> 0:59:00.480
<v Speaker 1>The best new courses became the domain of wealth people

0:59:01.160 --> 0:59:04.000
<v Speaker 1>and to an extent, you know early Scottish golf, if

0:59:04.280 --> 0:59:07.240
<v Speaker 1>you looked at who was playing golf at Saint Andrew's

0:59:07.240 --> 0:59:10.640
<v Speaker 1>in the late seventeen hundreds, there was a mix of people,

0:59:10.720 --> 0:59:14.840
<v Speaker 1>but a lot of the most most frequent players on

0:59:14.880 --> 0:59:19.479
<v Speaker 1>the links were wealthy Scottish guys, Scottish aristocrats. That kind

0:59:19.480 --> 0:59:21.520
<v Speaker 1>of changed in the middle of the eighteen hundreds with

0:59:21.560 --> 0:59:23.920
<v Speaker 1>the introduction of the gut of percha ball, which was

0:59:24.080 --> 0:59:28.720
<v Speaker 1>much cheaper and it democratized the game. But the fact

0:59:28.920 --> 0:59:34.200
<v Speaker 1>is that until basically the twentieth century, almost all golf

0:59:34.200 --> 0:59:38.840
<v Speaker 1>courses in Scotland on the links were free to play.

0:59:39.760 --> 0:59:43.080
<v Speaker 1>They were essentially just public land open. You didn't pay

0:59:43.080 --> 0:59:44.920
<v Speaker 1>a green fee, you didn't go to a pro shop.

0:59:46.040 --> 0:59:48.880
<v Speaker 1>You just you know, you might. I don't know. I'm

0:59:48.920 --> 0:59:50.800
<v Speaker 1>not sure if it was like the if it was

0:59:50.840 --> 0:59:52.880
<v Speaker 1>like the surf breaks in Hawaii where if you went

0:59:52.920 --> 0:59:55.320
<v Speaker 1>out there you might get your ass beaten by old

0:59:55.360 --> 1:00:00.520
<v Speaker 1>Tom Morris or something, if you had to like follow code.

1:00:00.560 --> 1:00:02.360
<v Speaker 1>I'd love to know more about the dynamics of that.

1:00:02.400 --> 1:00:06.720
<v Speaker 1>But there there wasn't a green fee here, right, Yeah.

1:00:06.800 --> 1:00:12.760
<v Speaker 1>That changes memberships and green fees got to be much higher.

1:00:12.800 --> 1:00:14.640
<v Speaker 1>And not just because it's not all the fault of

1:00:14.640 --> 1:00:18.040
<v Speaker 1>Harry cult or whatever, but that is I think that's

1:00:18.160 --> 1:00:21.640
<v Speaker 1>undoubtedly a legacy of the Golden Age, that expectations were

1:00:21.760 --> 1:00:24.640
<v Speaker 1>raised for what a golf course would be, and in

1:00:24.720 --> 1:00:27.040
<v Speaker 1>order to meet those expectations you had to spend money.

1:00:27.760 --> 1:00:29.160
<v Speaker 1>And if you're going to spend money, you had to

1:00:29.160 --> 1:00:29.600
<v Speaker 1>get it back.

1:00:29.880 --> 1:00:34.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, So I like pinning that all on one guy,

1:00:34.400 --> 1:00:37.440
<v Speaker 2>Harry Cole, sticking him to the board, being like this

1:00:37.520 --> 1:00:39.720
<v Speaker 2>all came back to you. I like the idea of

1:00:39.800 --> 1:00:42.680
<v Speaker 2>doing that. No, I mean that makes sense if you

1:00:42.760 --> 1:00:46.320
<v Speaker 2>are like, like I said before, if you're putting money

1:00:46.320 --> 1:00:49.360
<v Speaker 2>into it, you have to inherently get money out of it,

1:00:49.440 --> 1:00:52.280
<v Speaker 2>unless you're just like this giant philanthropist, which I feel

1:00:52.280 --> 1:00:56.400
<v Speaker 2>like probably not if you were a giant philanthropist in

1:00:56.640 --> 1:00:59.360
<v Speaker 2>nineteen oh one, I feel like building a golf course

1:00:59.480 --> 1:01:03.640
<v Speaker 2>was probably not your way of doing it. So that

1:01:03.760 --> 1:01:07.120
<v Speaker 2>all tracks makes sense. And then you think about where

1:01:08.480 --> 1:01:12.000
<v Speaker 2>at least, like you know, the great golf courses are

1:01:12.080 --> 1:01:14.560
<v Speaker 2>on Long Island for the most part, it is all

1:01:14.600 --> 1:01:17.520
<v Speaker 2>in the Hampton's Like that is not a coincidence. I'm sure.

1:01:17.600 --> 1:01:21.360
<v Speaker 1>Well, listen, you know, you know who really explored the

1:01:21.400 --> 1:01:24.160
<v Speaker 1>outer limits of how much you could spend on a

1:01:24.160 --> 1:01:24.760
<v Speaker 1>golf course.

1:01:26.080 --> 1:01:26.320
<v Speaker 2>C B.

1:01:26.480 --> 1:01:30.560
<v Speaker 1>McDonald at National Golf Links. He raised I believe the

1:01:30.640 --> 1:01:33.200
<v Speaker 1>number is seventy thousand dollars.

1:01:33.480 --> 1:01:35.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's a lot of money.

1:01:35.160 --> 1:01:37.840
<v Speaker 1>To build National Golf Links. He he was a member

1:01:37.880 --> 1:01:39.400
<v Speaker 1>of all these clubs in New York. He knew all

1:01:39.400 --> 1:01:42.560
<v Speaker 1>the rich guys and he got like seventy of them

1:01:42.800 --> 1:01:47.160
<v Speaker 1>to each pay a thousand dollars, an unbelievable sum of

1:01:47.200 --> 1:01:52.320
<v Speaker 1>money to spend on a golf course, just completely breaking

1:01:52.400 --> 1:01:55.640
<v Speaker 1>through all previous barriers for how much you would spend

1:01:55.680 --> 1:01:57.800
<v Speaker 1>on a golf course and in the US are probably

1:01:57.880 --> 1:02:02.240
<v Speaker 1>even Britain England. Yeah, I don't think anybody had done

1:02:02.240 --> 1:02:05.920
<v Speaker 1>anything like that before. And that is part of c

1:02:06.040 --> 1:02:09.680
<v Speaker 1>me McDonald's legacy. He figured out how to finance a

1:02:09.880 --> 1:02:13.080
<v Speaker 1>super ambitious golf course project. And it was not easy

1:02:13.120 --> 1:02:15.760
<v Speaker 1>to build the national Like they didn't have turf for

1:02:15.800 --> 1:02:18.040
<v Speaker 1>a while. They had to they had to like invent

1:02:18.120 --> 1:02:21.360
<v Speaker 1>new forms of agronomy to make that golf course happen.

1:02:21.480 --> 1:02:24.320
<v Speaker 1>And what do you need to do that You need money? Yeah,

1:02:24.360 --> 1:02:27.360
<v Speaker 1>and what's the result of that. You can't walk up

1:02:27.360 --> 1:02:28.680
<v Speaker 1>to National Golf Links and play it.

1:02:29.000 --> 1:02:33.200
<v Speaker 2>No, no, you can't. So I as a whole would

1:02:33.200 --> 1:02:38.160
<v Speaker 2>you say this was all a good thing? I assume, Well.

1:02:37.960 --> 1:02:40.400
<v Speaker 1>I want to know your perspective on that for me,

1:02:42.360 --> 1:02:44.919
<v Speaker 1>and just to put my cards on the table here,

1:02:45.640 --> 1:02:50.760
<v Speaker 1>I think every single historical legacy of every phenomenon ever

1:02:51.320 --> 1:02:54.240
<v Speaker 1>is complex. Yes, but I think if there's one thing

1:02:54.240 --> 1:02:57.160
<v Speaker 1>that I would insist on, it's that just because we

1:02:57.240 --> 1:02:59.120
<v Speaker 1>call it the Golden Age doesn't mean we have to

1:03:00.000 --> 1:03:02.200
<v Speaker 1>say that it's perfect.

1:03:02.840 --> 1:03:03.520
<v Speaker 2>That makes sense.

1:03:04.440 --> 1:03:06.440
<v Speaker 1>That's my perspective on it. But how are you feeling

1:03:06.440 --> 1:03:08.000
<v Speaker 1>at this point, I don't know.

1:03:08.200 --> 1:03:13.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean it feels like in order to hashek grow

1:03:13.360 --> 1:03:19.040
<v Speaker 2>the game, this had to happen, right Like the sport

1:03:19.520 --> 1:03:21.480
<v Speaker 2>would not be in the place that it is today,

1:03:21.560 --> 1:03:23.640
<v Speaker 2>would not be in the place that it was in

1:03:23.760 --> 1:03:27.320
<v Speaker 2>the eighties. Any of this would not have happened if

1:03:27.840 --> 1:03:31.160
<v Speaker 2>this time period and this development of pay for play,

1:03:31.240 --> 1:03:34.400
<v Speaker 2>pay for building becoming more of an art however you

1:03:34.440 --> 1:03:35.720
<v Speaker 2>want to phrase it occurred.

1:03:36.000 --> 1:03:41.080
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely correct, and plus we can't just reduce the whole

1:03:41.120 --> 1:03:43.680
<v Speaker 1>thing to money. Now, there was a lot of brilliance

1:03:44.040 --> 1:03:46.400
<v Speaker 1>that went into this as well, those ideas that we

1:03:46.440 --> 1:03:48.480
<v Speaker 1>talked about, strategic design, naturalism.

1:03:48.520 --> 1:03:50.680
<v Speaker 2>I would like to be very clear, I do not

1:03:50.880 --> 1:03:55.280
<v Speaker 2>mean to offend the Knight's templar of golf. Take me

1:03:55.520 --> 1:04:01.760
<v Speaker 2>off of your list, Oxford Society. I'm not call back

1:04:01.800 --> 1:04:05.920
<v Speaker 2>the stuff I'm scared of. I am scared of you.

1:04:06.040 --> 1:04:10.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm good like It's not what I'm trying to do here. However, However,

1:04:11.600 --> 1:04:16.120
<v Speaker 2>I definitely think there is an aspect to losing the

1:04:18.280 --> 1:04:20.520
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to call it like the ideals of

1:04:20.560 --> 1:04:23.360
<v Speaker 2>the game, but from the origin of just like having

1:04:23.440 --> 1:04:28.320
<v Speaker 2>it be public land and anybody can like losing any time.

1:04:28.680 --> 1:04:32.080
<v Speaker 2>And this goes for probably anything to some extent. As

1:04:32.120 --> 1:04:37.680
<v Speaker 2>you said, anytime you infuse a boltload of money into anything,

1:04:38.320 --> 1:04:42.760
<v Speaker 2>I think you're losing part of the soul of anything

1:04:42.960 --> 1:04:45.400
<v Speaker 2>at the end of the day, and that has clearly

1:04:45.520 --> 1:04:46.160
<v Speaker 2>happened here.

1:04:48.640 --> 1:04:55.040
<v Speaker 1>Very well said. I do think that that spirit of

1:04:55.120 --> 1:05:00.320
<v Speaker 1>links golf, which can be fetishized and romanticized, I would

1:05:00.320 --> 1:05:02.480
<v Speaker 1>agree there were problems with it, and you know, not

1:05:02.560 --> 1:05:07.440
<v Speaker 1>everything was hunky dory all the time. But listen, the

1:05:07.440 --> 1:05:12.720
<v Speaker 1>Golden Age is understood generally as a recovery of the

1:05:12.720 --> 1:05:18.000
<v Speaker 1>ideals of links golf. Okay, and in the sense that

1:05:18.040 --> 1:05:23.200
<v Speaker 1>it brought strategic golf design and naturalism into architecture, that's

1:05:23.200 --> 1:05:26.760
<v Speaker 1>absolutely valid. Yeah, But in another sense, the Golden Age

1:05:27.200 --> 1:05:31.160
<v Speaker 1>was a complete betrayal of the ideals of links golf

1:05:32.280 --> 1:05:35.680
<v Speaker 1>in that it made it private, It took it out

1:05:35.720 --> 1:05:40.040
<v Speaker 1>of public land. In fact, it took public land in

1:05:40.080 --> 1:05:42.320
<v Speaker 1>the heathlands what it used to be public land, yes,

1:05:42.480 --> 1:05:47.800
<v Speaker 1>and privatized it. People now listen, if you go to

1:05:47.800 --> 1:05:50.200
<v Speaker 1>the English heathlands now people are kind of walking around

1:05:50.200 --> 1:05:52.680
<v Speaker 1>it and it feels very communal. It's not like it's

1:05:52.720 --> 1:05:54.800
<v Speaker 1>not like private golf clubs in the States. So I

1:05:54.840 --> 1:05:58.920
<v Speaker 1>don't want to overstate that, but it's so interesting to

1:05:59.000 --> 1:06:02.880
<v Speaker 1>me how the Golden Age is both of those things

1:06:02.920 --> 1:06:07.600
<v Speaker 1>at the same time. It is a recovery of the

1:06:07.640 --> 1:06:11.120
<v Speaker 1>early spirit of links golf and and it is an

1:06:11.160 --> 1:06:14.240
<v Speaker 1>abandonment at the same time. And it is it is

1:06:14.280 --> 1:06:19.160
<v Speaker 1>something entirely new, a new model. Now, was there any

1:06:19.400 --> 1:06:26.400
<v Speaker 1>other way to create excellent inland golf. Maybe not, right

1:06:26.400 --> 1:06:29.160
<v Speaker 1>those there wasn't.

1:06:29.680 --> 1:06:31.919
<v Speaker 2>Somebody would have figured it out a different way, right.

1:06:32.000 --> 1:06:34.560
<v Speaker 2>It's one of those like life finds away kind of things.

1:06:34.560 --> 1:06:36.400
<v Speaker 2>If there was another way to do this, inevitably it

1:06:36.400 --> 1:06:39.080
<v Speaker 2>would have happened. Then it didn't se this was the

1:06:39.120 --> 1:06:40.200
<v Speaker 2>answer at the end of the day.

1:06:40.360 --> 1:06:43.320
<v Speaker 1>This was the This was our you know, our universe

1:06:43.320 --> 1:06:45.720
<v Speaker 1>and the multiverse. This is this is what happened. But

1:06:45.800 --> 1:06:51.200
<v Speaker 1>it probably would have gone this direction because because capitalism, right,

1:06:51.280 --> 1:06:54.320
<v Speaker 1>this is is kind of how how things how things work.

1:06:54.920 --> 1:06:58.480
<v Speaker 1>But but yes, I think this is I think this

1:06:58.560 --> 1:07:01.600
<v Speaker 1>is the big takeaway is that, you know, when people

1:07:01.640 --> 1:07:03.920
<v Speaker 1>toss around the term Golden Age, it kind of has

1:07:03.960 --> 1:07:07.240
<v Speaker 1>a rosy hue to it. Everything Golden Age is great,

1:07:08.360 --> 1:07:13.280
<v Speaker 1>but that's not necessarily the case, and one of the

1:07:13.360 --> 1:07:16.000
<v Speaker 1>legacies of the Golden Age that we can build beyond

1:07:16.960 --> 1:07:20.640
<v Speaker 1>is this sense that in order to make something really excellent,

1:07:21.080 --> 1:07:23.760
<v Speaker 1>you have to throw more money at it. Now, I

1:07:23.800 --> 1:07:25.920
<v Speaker 1>don't think it was unreasonable for them to do that

1:07:26.080 --> 1:07:28.280
<v Speaker 1>at the time, And in fact, the amounts of money

1:07:28.280 --> 1:07:31.400
<v Speaker 1>that they were spending on golf courses in the Golden

1:07:31.400 --> 1:07:36.200
<v Speaker 1>Age pales in comparison to the thirty million that were

1:07:36.720 --> 1:07:40.400
<v Speaker 1>that has now become conventional for golf course projects. But

1:07:41.040 --> 1:07:44.200
<v Speaker 1>if we're thinking about how we understand the Golden Age

1:07:44.200 --> 1:07:47.680
<v Speaker 1>and react to it, and how we bring its ideals

1:07:47.720 --> 1:07:52.280
<v Speaker 1>into our own time, maybe we can borrow some architectural concepts,

1:07:52.320 --> 1:07:55.320
<v Speaker 1>We can borrow some of the theory of design, while

1:07:55.360 --> 1:07:58.960
<v Speaker 1>at the same time acknowledging that there's some reversing of

1:07:59.000 --> 1:08:02.000
<v Speaker 1>course to be to you done here, and that the

1:08:02.880 --> 1:08:05.840
<v Speaker 1>that the idea of of lands on which you play

1:08:05.920 --> 1:08:10.840
<v Speaker 1>the game that aren't perfect and aren't overly engineered, that

1:08:10.840 --> 1:08:13.320
<v Speaker 1>that idea can live somewhere in golf. There's a place

1:08:13.360 --> 1:08:13.640
<v Speaker 1>for that.

1:08:14.840 --> 1:08:19.000
<v Speaker 2>Do you are there? I don't. I don't know the

1:08:19.040 --> 1:08:21.800
<v Speaker 2>way to phrase this question. But as you went down

1:08:22.000 --> 1:08:24.400
<v Speaker 2>the list before, and you're talking about all of these

1:08:24.880 --> 1:08:29.439
<v Speaker 2>great iconic golf courses built within this area, Like are

1:08:29.439 --> 1:08:32.840
<v Speaker 2>there just are they're bad Golden Age golf courses that

1:08:32.960 --> 1:08:36.320
<v Speaker 2>like are not relevant in any way, shape or form,

1:08:36.360 --> 1:08:39.280
<v Speaker 2>Like as you said, we look back on rosy colored

1:08:39.280 --> 1:08:42.559
<v Speaker 2>glasses and all of these iconic places, and that are

1:08:42.640 --> 1:08:45.080
<v Speaker 2>they're just like was there like a lot of wasted

1:08:45.200 --> 1:08:47.080
<v Speaker 2>time and opportunity through this too?

1:08:47.840 --> 1:08:51.400
<v Speaker 1>That's such a good question. And you know, I generally

1:08:51.479 --> 1:08:54.200
<v Speaker 1>haven't I haven't really met many Golden Age courses that

1:08:54.240 --> 1:08:58.040
<v Speaker 1>I haven't loved. But that's part partly because there's a

1:08:58.080 --> 1:09:02.640
<v Speaker 1>selection bias inevitably, right the courses that have survived have

1:09:02.760 --> 1:09:05.120
<v Speaker 1>generally been well taken care of and were pretty good

1:09:05.160 --> 1:09:08.400
<v Speaker 1>in the first place. Yeah, but there were some bad

1:09:08.479 --> 1:09:13.559
<v Speaker 1>courses built in the nineteen hundreds, tens, twenties and thirties

1:09:13.760 --> 1:09:17.599
<v Speaker 1>in the US, in Britain and elsewhere. You just don't

1:09:17.600 --> 1:09:20.400
<v Speaker 1>hear much about them right there. And so there's there's

1:09:20.439 --> 1:09:23.719
<v Speaker 1>always a selection bias at play here in what we discuss,

1:09:24.320 --> 1:09:28.280
<v Speaker 1>what we're exposed to and what has managed to survive

1:09:28.840 --> 1:09:33.519
<v Speaker 1>the times. But there's no doubt that the quality that

1:09:33.560 --> 1:09:36.280
<v Speaker 1>the hit rate right as they're saying, cricket, the batting

1:09:36.320 --> 1:09:40.840
<v Speaker 1>average was high. Okay, I don't know if it's hit rate.

1:09:40.880 --> 1:09:43.360
<v Speaker 1>Maybe it's strike rate in cricket, I don't know cricket.

1:09:43.640 --> 1:09:45.519
<v Speaker 1>Cricket is the sport that I know the least about.

1:09:46.200 --> 1:09:47.720
<v Speaker 2>I can't help you there either.

1:09:49.160 --> 1:09:51.519
<v Speaker 1>And you're in. You're like a sports savant. Yeah, you

1:09:51.600 --> 1:09:53.559
<v Speaker 1>know everything about everything, but bad cricket.

1:09:53.640 --> 1:09:55.760
<v Speaker 2>I have nothing on cricket, So don't look at me

1:09:55.840 --> 1:09:56.120
<v Speaker 2>on that.

1:09:57.200 --> 1:10:01.439
<v Speaker 1>The batting average was very high among the best architects

1:10:01.439 --> 1:10:05.200
<v Speaker 1>of the Golden Age, partly because again to bring this

1:10:05.280 --> 1:10:08.879
<v Speaker 1>idea back, that the land was really good, the properties

1:10:08.920 --> 1:10:13.240
<v Speaker 1>were really good, Land prices were fairly low. Things hadn't

1:10:13.240 --> 1:10:17.360
<v Speaker 1>been over developed. Stuff was available near major metros. You

1:10:17.360 --> 1:10:21.640
<v Speaker 1>could find a piece of land like the ones just

1:10:21.680 --> 1:10:25.240
<v Speaker 1>outside of San Francisco where a San Francisco golf club

1:10:25.240 --> 1:10:27.759
<v Speaker 1>and Lake Merced are just wonderful rolling pieces of land

1:10:28.360 --> 1:10:32.280
<v Speaker 1>right abutting a major metro area. That stuff doesn't exist

1:10:32.360 --> 1:10:37.120
<v Speaker 1>right now. It's not available for golf development. And so

1:10:37.200 --> 1:10:40.640
<v Speaker 1>in order to find great land, current golf architects have

1:10:40.680 --> 1:10:44.000
<v Speaker 1>gone very far afield, have gone to remote places to

1:10:44.120 --> 1:10:48.479
<v Speaker 1>find the undulating sandy soils that they like and that

1:10:48.479 --> 1:10:52.040
<v Speaker 1>that has totally changed the nature of golf course development,

1:10:52.320 --> 1:10:55.639
<v Speaker 1>and it's one way in which the original gold Golden

1:10:55.680 --> 1:10:59.840
<v Speaker 1>Age has has a huge advantage over every era since.

1:11:01.439 --> 1:11:04.360
<v Speaker 2>Okay, I mean that makes sense that that there was

1:11:04.720 --> 1:11:08.600
<v Speaker 2>more opportunity. I was just wondering if everything, you know,

1:11:09.040 --> 1:11:11.400
<v Speaker 2>seems like everything was going well. It seems like there

1:11:11.400 --> 1:11:13.920
<v Speaker 2>are a lot of famous people that came out of this.

1:11:14.200 --> 1:11:17.000
<v Speaker 2>Everybody had a lot of great ideas. Everybody who's having

1:11:17.080 --> 1:11:18.639
<v Speaker 2>such a great time that length.

1:11:19.160 --> 1:11:21.519
<v Speaker 1>There are a lot of really good courses. Yeah, there

1:11:21.520 --> 1:11:25.439
<v Speaker 1>were also very active debates about what made a good

1:11:25.439 --> 1:11:29.000
<v Speaker 1>golf course. You know. I've I've you know, talked about

1:11:29.000 --> 1:11:31.600
<v Speaker 1>the ideas that I think are the most important and

1:11:31.640 --> 1:11:35.400
<v Speaker 1>the ones that ended up becoming the most influential. But

1:11:35.640 --> 1:11:37.800
<v Speaker 1>there were other ideas that other people had. There were

1:11:37.800 --> 1:11:40.880
<v Speaker 1>there were people who were arguing to their dying day

1:11:41.560 --> 1:11:43.920
<v Speaker 1>that penal architecture was the way to go, and that

1:11:44.120 --> 1:11:48.040
<v Speaker 1>was a big mistake to go the route that we did.

1:11:48.360 --> 1:11:51.599
<v Speaker 1>There were there was a lot of discussion, and in fact,

1:11:51.600 --> 1:11:54.559
<v Speaker 1>I think that that actually is an important characteristic of

1:11:54.600 --> 1:11:58.439
<v Speaker 1>the Golden Age as well. Was just the volume and

1:11:58.560 --> 1:12:03.160
<v Speaker 1>quality of discushion that people had about it. An unbelievable

1:12:03.200 --> 1:12:07.640
<v Speaker 1>amount was written about golf architecture in these decades, in newspapers,

1:12:07.720 --> 1:12:12.000
<v Speaker 1>in magazines, in books that were published. People were and

1:12:12.400 --> 1:12:15.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, that doesn't even account for the verbal conversations

1:12:15.720 --> 1:12:20.080
<v Speaker 1>that we had, I'm sure relentlessly at golf courses. But

1:12:20.400 --> 1:12:23.959
<v Speaker 1>just if you're looking at the print legacy, the literary legacy,

1:12:24.680 --> 1:12:29.920
<v Speaker 1>it's enormous. And that kind of stopped more or less

1:12:30.320 --> 1:12:35.520
<v Speaker 1>in the forties, fifties, sixties. It has been revived recently.

1:12:35.600 --> 1:12:38.240
<v Speaker 1>The Internet has had a big, big role to play

1:12:38.439 --> 1:12:41.680
<v Speaker 1>there where discussion has come back. But I think that

1:12:41.720 --> 1:12:47.080
<v Speaker 1>the existence of that conversation is also a big reason

1:12:47.280 --> 1:12:51.040
<v Speaker 1>that the quality of work during the Golden Age was

1:12:51.120 --> 1:12:56.519
<v Speaker 1>generally so high. Whether that work followed the most popular

1:12:56.560 --> 1:13:01.160
<v Speaker 1>ideas or not, the work was engaged with the conversation

1:13:01.240 --> 1:13:03.960
<v Speaker 1>that was happening, and that gave it a complexity and

1:13:04.160 --> 1:13:09.120
<v Speaker 1>a you know, an integrity. You know, I'm searching for

1:13:09.160 --> 1:13:11.960
<v Speaker 1>the right word here, but it gave it something that

1:13:12.000 --> 1:13:15.600
<v Speaker 1>made it feel live, even if it wasn't all strategic

1:13:15.640 --> 1:13:16.679
<v Speaker 1>and naturalists, et cetera.

1:13:17.040 --> 1:13:21.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, people were engaging with the work. I mean that

1:13:21.040 --> 1:13:24.360
<v Speaker 2>that makes that makes sense that there's anytime there's a

1:13:24.400 --> 1:13:28.400
<v Speaker 2>feedback loop, it's never a bad thing. Again, like if

1:13:28.479 --> 1:13:30.240
<v Speaker 2>it gets people talking at the end of the day,

1:13:30.240 --> 1:13:31.599
<v Speaker 2>that's that's what you want, right.

1:13:31.479 --> 1:13:33.960
<v Speaker 1>That's right. You often say, you know, it's good to

1:13:33.960 --> 1:13:35.880
<v Speaker 1>have a take. You want to listen to people who

1:13:35.960 --> 1:13:40.360
<v Speaker 1>have takes. They had takes, everybody, Everybody who is designing

1:13:40.640 --> 1:13:43.439
<v Speaker 1>a significant golf course in this period how to take.

1:13:43.479 --> 1:13:45.200
<v Speaker 1>And I think that's true today as well, which is

1:13:45.240 --> 1:13:47.880
<v Speaker 1>something that makes the current era that we're living in

1:13:47.920 --> 1:13:48.559
<v Speaker 1>pretty exciting.

1:13:48.840 --> 1:13:50.599
<v Speaker 2>All right, So I have one more question here. So

1:13:50.880 --> 1:13:54.040
<v Speaker 2>you focused a lot on on the London aspect of

1:13:54.120 --> 1:13:58.920
<v Speaker 2>kind of the genesis of this. Yeah, did anything like

1:13:59.280 --> 1:14:03.960
<v Speaker 2>different happened once it came to America or even Australia

1:14:04.120 --> 1:14:06.439
<v Speaker 2>or Japan or any of the other places that you mentioned.

1:14:06.840 --> 1:14:10.960
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, And this is part of the oversimplification that I've

1:14:11.000 --> 1:14:14.880
<v Speaker 1>had to do in order to make this topic manageable

1:14:14.920 --> 1:14:17.880
<v Speaker 1>for an episode of the podcast. But you could have

1:14:17.920 --> 1:14:21.280
<v Speaker 1>a whole discussion about the American Golden Age and how

1:14:21.280 --> 1:14:24.599
<v Speaker 1>that came about the particular features of that. I think

1:14:24.600 --> 1:14:26.880
<v Speaker 1>that you know the story that I would have told

1:14:26.920 --> 1:14:28.920
<v Speaker 1>you if I had engaged with that subject. Would be

1:14:28.960 --> 1:14:31.479
<v Speaker 1>the building of national golf links. We've already kind of

1:14:31.520 --> 1:14:36.240
<v Speaker 1>covered that in our Ideal Holes episode, our Template Holes episode.

1:14:36.680 --> 1:14:42.360
<v Speaker 1>But C. B. McDonald was a North American who went

1:14:42.400 --> 1:14:46.599
<v Speaker 1>over to Scotland, got educated there and experienced links golf

1:14:46.880 --> 1:14:51.760
<v Speaker 1>and brought those ideas to the States, but put his

1:14:51.920 --> 1:14:55.439
<v Speaker 1>own completely different spin on it. This this idea of

1:14:55.439 --> 1:15:00.760
<v Speaker 1>ideal holes was a new one, and he'd did pick

1:15:00.840 --> 1:15:03.800
<v Speaker 1>up on the financial technology of spending a ton of

1:15:03.800 --> 1:15:08.400
<v Speaker 1>money and constructing a golfers and having those big ambitions

1:15:08.400 --> 1:15:11.400
<v Speaker 1>and those big expectations for what it would be. But

1:15:12.040 --> 1:15:16.000
<v Speaker 1>it was different. For sure. It was the same kinds

1:15:16.000 --> 1:15:19.479
<v Speaker 1>of ideas and trends, but just kind of reflected back

1:15:19.520 --> 1:15:23.200
<v Speaker 1>in a funhouse mirror, and so yes, it was different.

1:15:23.720 --> 1:15:27.720
<v Speaker 1>But in other respects. Listen, who were the architects who

1:15:27.720 --> 1:15:30.240
<v Speaker 1>were building a lot of the best courses in the

1:15:30.240 --> 1:15:34.080
<v Speaker 1>Golden Age in the US during the nineteen twenties. We're

1:15:34.080 --> 1:15:39.400
<v Speaker 1>talking about Alistair McKenzie. We're talking about, you know, earlier

1:15:39.560 --> 1:15:43.160
<v Speaker 1>on Willie Park who designed Sunningdale, designed quite a few

1:15:43.160 --> 1:15:45.639
<v Speaker 1>courses in the States. Harry Colt came over a couple

1:15:45.640 --> 1:15:48.519
<v Speaker 1>of times, Allison came over a couple of times we

1:15:48.520 --> 1:15:52.720
<v Speaker 1>were importing some of the same architects while developing some

1:15:52.880 --> 1:15:58.280
<v Speaker 1>homegrown talents like C. B. MacDonald, like George Thomas. You know,

1:15:58.320 --> 1:16:02.760
<v Speaker 1>there were definitely Americans who who became engaged in this,

1:16:03.040 --> 1:16:05.800
<v Speaker 1>but they were you know, they could read London newspapers

1:16:05.840 --> 1:16:07.720
<v Speaker 1>and stuff like that, so a lot of the same

1:16:07.760 --> 1:16:13.680
<v Speaker 1>ideas were circulating. Now. One factor here is that the

1:16:13.720 --> 1:16:18.400
<v Speaker 1>English Golden Age is generally concentrated earlier than the American

1:16:18.439 --> 1:16:22.120
<v Speaker 1>Golden Age. The English Golden Age was really from about

1:16:22.479 --> 1:16:25.439
<v Speaker 1>nineteen oh one to the outbreak of World War Two,

1:16:25.920 --> 1:16:30.120
<v Speaker 1>and I believe nineteen fourteen that was where most of

1:16:30.160 --> 1:16:33.200
<v Speaker 1>the action of the English Golden Age happened. In the

1:16:33.320 --> 1:16:36.519
<v Speaker 1>United States. The beginning point you could really kind of

1:16:36.560 --> 1:16:40.640
<v Speaker 1>fix at nineteen eleven when National Golf Links opened, But

1:16:41.040 --> 1:16:45.000
<v Speaker 1>most of the stuff happened in the nineteen twenties. It

1:16:45.080 --> 1:16:49.519
<v Speaker 1>was the Roaring twenties. There was plenty of there were

1:16:49.520 --> 1:16:52.600
<v Speaker 1>plenty of people who were willing to fund golf course projects,

1:16:52.640 --> 1:16:56.080
<v Speaker 1>and that's a big reason why they happened. And these

1:16:56.160 --> 1:17:01.679
<v Speaker 1>ideas came over from Great Britain to influence what happened

1:17:01.720 --> 1:17:04.600
<v Speaker 1>in the twenties. But it was generally happening later. The

1:17:04.640 --> 1:17:07.320
<v Speaker 1>same thing didn't really go down in England in the

1:17:07.360 --> 1:17:11.440
<v Speaker 1>nineteen twenties because England was more affected by World War One. Yeah,

1:17:11.720 --> 1:17:15.080
<v Speaker 1>and so you know that's the reason why you know,

1:17:15.120 --> 1:17:19.160
<v Speaker 1>you're Alistair McKenzie's probably ended up setting up shop in

1:17:19.240 --> 1:17:21.439
<v Speaker 1>the US because there was just more to do here.

1:17:21.840 --> 1:17:24.280
<v Speaker 1>There weren't as many projects happening in England.

1:17:24.720 --> 1:17:27.360
<v Speaker 2>That makes sense. That's putting it in the context of

1:17:27.920 --> 1:17:30.040
<v Speaker 2>the times again that like you said.

1:17:29.880 --> 1:17:33.200
<v Speaker 1>Before, it's all every place is a little bit different.

1:17:33.200 --> 1:17:35.960
<v Speaker 1>Australia is different again. You know, I've told the story

1:17:36.000 --> 1:17:39.439
<v Speaker 1>before on different podcasts about Alistair McKenzie going to Royal

1:17:39.479 --> 1:17:42.479
<v Speaker 1>Melbourne and then you know, kind of spreading seeds through

1:17:42.800 --> 1:17:46.519
<v Speaker 1>throughout Australia that eventually grew into an impressive flowering of

1:17:46.560 --> 1:17:50.120
<v Speaker 1>Golden Age architecture there. But that happened in the late twenties, right,

1:17:50.160 --> 1:17:55.240
<v Speaker 1>that was later again, so different. Japan is a whole

1:17:55.360 --> 1:17:58.320
<v Speaker 1>subject that I haven't I've been too intimidated to take

1:17:58.360 --> 1:18:00.720
<v Speaker 1>on myself. But Charles Elison and went over there and

1:18:00.920 --> 1:18:04.120
<v Speaker 1>did some interesting stuff and and so yeah, every every

1:18:04.200 --> 1:18:07.679
<v Speaker 1>little place is different. And you know, we if we

1:18:07.680 --> 1:18:09.560
<v Speaker 1>were doing a proper survey of the Golden Age. We

1:18:09.600 --> 1:18:11.880
<v Speaker 1>would also talk maybe about the ending point of it,

1:18:12.200 --> 1:18:15.559
<v Speaker 1>what affects the Great Depression had, what affects the the

1:18:15.600 --> 1:18:18.280
<v Speaker 1>Second World War had, But if we dug into all

1:18:18.320 --> 1:18:20.840
<v Speaker 1>that stuff, we'd be here for another few hours. So

1:18:20.840 --> 1:18:23.679
<v Speaker 1>I think a good starting point is these three ideas

1:18:23.720 --> 1:18:27.680
<v Speaker 1>of money, strategic design and uh and and naturalism. I

1:18:27.760 --> 1:18:30.040
<v Speaker 1>think those are That's a good starting point for us.

1:18:30.400 --> 1:18:32.960
<v Speaker 2>This is great. I'm just I'm happy that we found

1:18:32.960 --> 1:18:34.800
<v Speaker 2>Harry Cole is the one guy to pin this wole

1:18:34.880 --> 1:18:37.040
<v Speaker 2>on and put him up on the board, circle him

1:18:37.040 --> 1:18:39.439
<v Speaker 2>in red, and then the branches can go out from there.

1:18:40.320 --> 1:18:43.559
<v Speaker 1>I love it. I love it. He he deserves it.

1:18:43.640 --> 1:18:46.680
<v Speaker 2>Maybe God blame somebody, God blame somebody.

1:18:46.880 --> 1:18:49.519
<v Speaker 1>We but yeah, it's fine with me that we blame

1:18:49.640 --> 1:18:52.280
<v Speaker 1>Harry Colt. You know, he's been dead for a long time,

1:18:52.439 --> 1:18:57.040
<v Speaker 1>so what's he gonna do? Genuinely, seems like he was

1:18:57.040 --> 1:18:59.759
<v Speaker 1>probably a pretty nice guy. But I'm but I'm still

1:18:59.840 --> 1:19:01.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm still willing to pin it on him.

1:19:02.040 --> 1:19:03.960
<v Speaker 2>It's okay. Everybody needs a fall guy.

1:19:04.840 --> 1:19:06.800
<v Speaker 1>All right. PJ, thank you so much for joining me.

1:19:06.920 --> 1:19:08.439
<v Speaker 2>This is thanks thanks for having me.

1:19:14.560 --> 1:19:18.400
<v Speaker 1>This episode of Designing Golf was produced by Will Balsam.

1:19:18.800 --> 1:19:24.120
<v Speaker 1>Thank you Will. If you're looking for a wonderful holiday gift,

1:19:24.560 --> 1:19:28.160
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1:19:30.160 --> 1:19:32.280
<v Speaker 1>what it's all about. We have a new discussion for

1:19:32.360 --> 1:19:34.880
<v Speaker 1>him in Friday Golf Club that has been a lot

1:19:34.880 --> 1:19:38.080
<v Speaker 1>of fun for me personally. I've I've been all over it.

1:19:38.120 --> 1:19:42.360
<v Speaker 1>I've I've become like a message board rat on there,

1:19:42.720 --> 1:19:46.280
<v Speaker 1>and I've probably annoying people at this point. But the

1:19:46.439 --> 1:19:50.240
<v Speaker 1>conversations we're having there have been really positive. People have

1:19:50.280 --> 1:19:53.519
<v Speaker 1>been nice and also they've been saying interesting things. So

1:19:53.880 --> 1:19:55.880
<v Speaker 1>I'm digging that right now. That's a new feature of

1:19:55.880 --> 1:19:59.559
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