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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Imagine going out with

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Speaker 1: friends and family. You've waited all this time, You've gone online,

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Speaker 1: you bought tickets, You've got passes, and the one thing

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Speaker 1: that you want to hear or the songs of your

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Speaker 1: favorite performer. It all turned a tragedy at astra World

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Speaker 1: as a concert put on by Travis Scott. Day, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about the deaths of ten people. I'm Joseph

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs Back with me

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Speaker 1: today is my good friend Jackie Howard, executive producer of

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Would Nancy Grace, Jackie, what can you tell

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Speaker 1: us about this tragedy? Ten people died in a stampede

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Speaker 1: at the astral World festival in Houston during rapper Travis

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Speaker 1: Scott's concert. And now we do have a ruling by

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Speaker 1: the Harris County Medical Examiner on those debts. Those victims

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Speaker 1: were aged nine to seven years old, and they died

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Speaker 1: of compression asphyxia, according to the examiner's report. Another three

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Speaker 1: hundred people were injured. Now, the audience was over fifty

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Speaker 1: thousand people and from what we know a large majority

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Speaker 1: of those patrons started to storm the stage which led

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Speaker 1: to these debts. I have so many questions, but let's

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Speaker 1: start with the fact, Joe, that this is not the

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Speaker 1: first time that something like this has happened, right you are, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: It's not the first time in in the human nature.

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Speaker 1: It seems like we never learned from tragedies, do we.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like history repeats itself. And you know, when

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Speaker 1: when I first heard about these deaths and well the injuries,

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Speaker 1: you know, because at first we didn't know how many

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Speaker 1: people had died. We didn't know if anybody had died,

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Speaker 1: but we knew that folks had been injured. It was

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Speaker 1: it was total anarchy out there. And immediately I began

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Speaker 1: to reflect back to my youth, and you know what

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Speaker 1: happened up in Cincinnati at the infamous Who concert where

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Speaker 1: you know, you had many people up there, uh, that

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Speaker 1: were injured there, and as well, you had folks that

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Speaker 1: were crushed to death. I think that there were eleven

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Speaker 1: deaths at that concert. There were, and uh, I still remember,

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Speaker 1: you know, reflecting back over the years, how impactful that

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Speaker 1: moment was. And there were a lot of questions that

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Speaker 1: were asked, Uh, you know, why wasn't somebody you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of guarding the gate, if you will, and that

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Speaker 1: that's not necessarily I don't mean that in a sense

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Speaker 1: of of a guard. I mean people managing the flow

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Speaker 1: uh of people coming in and out. Because the one

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Speaker 1: thing that we know about human nature, Jackie, is that

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Speaker 1: when people get super excited, adrenaline kicks in and people

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Speaker 1: getting to press forward. And if you've ever been to

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Speaker 1: a parade or something like that, or maybe you've been

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Speaker 1: a concert for those uh, for those of you that

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Speaker 1: are listening, and you're super excited about going to this thing,

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Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, you feel yourself being

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Speaker 1: kind of caught up and you don't have any control

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Speaker 1: over what's going on in the space around you. And

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Speaker 1: the WHO concert made me think also about what's referred

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Speaker 1: to as the infamous Hillsborough disaster, which happened over in

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Speaker 1: the UK many years ago at a football match, a

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Speaker 1: soccer match where you had ninety seven just imagine this,

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Speaker 1: jack You had nineties seven people that were asphyxiated. They

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Speaker 1: were crushed to death as a result of people pushing forward,

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Speaker 1: and they were in what we're referred to as pens

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Speaker 1: and they you know, they kind of had the the

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Speaker 1: area kind of cordined off where people couldn't they couldn't

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Speaker 1: break free, there was no point of escape, and so

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Speaker 1: you have this massive humanity, like a crushing wave of

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Speaker 1: people that are impacting these individuals that are in this

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Speaker 1: arrested area where they can go no further. How horrible

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Speaker 1: would that be just the thought of that not to

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Speaker 1: be able to break free, you don't have anywhere to go.

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Speaker 1: It causes some people to in this case to jump

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Speaker 1: over railings and people were injured that way. And then

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Speaker 1: if you're at the bottom of the pile, you have

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Speaker 1: no way. It's a it's an unsurvivabal event. And what

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Speaker 1: Hillsborough has in in connection would say, for instance, what

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Speaker 1: happened at Asher World is that these were general admission tickets.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's kind of like, you know, you begin

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Speaker 1: to think, you know, uh, first come, first served, you

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Speaker 1: want to press in. There's no assign seating that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing. So at just from Jump Street, you've got

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Speaker 1: you've got chaos. And you remember what I said about

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Speaker 1: excitement um when I covered this case not too many

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Speaker 1: years ago as well, But there was this tragedy that

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Speaker 1: had actually occurred up in Rhode Island and it was

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Speaker 1: the Station nightclub fire. And in that case that was

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Speaker 1: here in the US, we had a hundred dead. And

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Speaker 1: you think, well, Morgan, you're talking about a fire. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about a fire. But what happens when people

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Speaker 1: scream fire? Remember the old adage about that it's illegal

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Speaker 1: to scream fire in a movie theater. And one of

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Speaker 1: the rationales behind this is that you get this kind

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Speaker 1: of herd mentality where people are panicking and they're running

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Speaker 1: and you you're trampling people. That's why they tell you

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Speaker 1: to be ordered. You know, when we're kids, we go

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Speaker 1: through fire drills at school. You're ordered in getting out.

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Speaker 1: If not, the weakest in the crowd are gonna be

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Speaker 1: left behind and crushed. So and you know, in the

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Speaker 1: case in Rhode Island, yeah, there were people that died

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Speaker 1: as a result of say, for instance, smoke anhilation, But

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Speaker 1: many of these people died as result of being crushed

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Speaker 1: and being trapped and not having a point of escape

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Speaker 1: in this particular case, and and of course it leads

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Speaker 1: to tragedy. Jackie. Let's talk specifics, Joe about what literally happened.

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Speaker 1: You have a throng of people fifty that we know

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Speaker 1: of now I'm not saying all fifty took part in this,

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Speaker 1: but we have a lot of people that are are

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Speaker 1: are wanting to watch and be close to the stage.

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Speaker 1: So what exactly happened? The crowd started pushing forward. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm from the South as well. You say,

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Speaker 1: that's like putting fifty pounds of mud in a five

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Speaker 1: pound sack. Yeah, you, And it is. It is all

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Speaker 1: about volume, isn't it. And that's what that old expression

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Speaker 1: goes to, Jackie. There's there's only so much that a

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Speaker 1: particular area can contain without their becoming stressors that are exhibited,

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Speaker 1: you know. And in this case you mentioned stage, and

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Speaker 1: stage is kind of a blocking area, if you will,

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Speaker 1: and there's only one area to kind of escape too,

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Speaker 1: and that gets that becomes progressively more and more narrow

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Speaker 1: as people panic because they're all shooting for that area.

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Speaker 1: And in this case, people started pushing forward toward the stage.

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Speaker 1: And generally, if if folks have ever been to a

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Speaker 1: general emission concert, there's a barricade that kind of separates

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Speaker 1: the stage, and you'll have like security people that are

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Speaker 1: in between the stage and the barricade, and the barricade

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Speaker 1: separates the people from the stage and folks began to

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Speaker 1: press forward. I think that one of the questions that

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Speaker 1: people had is that why was there not more of

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Speaker 1: an awareness on the part of Travis Scott and those

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Speaker 1: individuals that are uh performing and that are providing the

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Speaker 1: entertainment and folks are you know, they're in a mad rush?

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Speaker 1: And I would assume that maybe if you're up on

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Speaker 1: the stage and you're in a fevered moment and people

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Speaker 1: are getting excited, it's probably kind of hard to interpret

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Speaker 1: it as being in anything other than enthusiasm maybe, And

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Speaker 1: of course, in this particular case, because you've got this

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Speaker 1: crushing event and that's what this winds up being, um,

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Speaker 1: a pressure event. Uh, then it's hard to delineate that,

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Speaker 1: particularly from a great distance, you know, where you're elevated

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Speaker 1: above the crowd, you're engaging, you're entertaining, and this sort

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Speaker 1: of thing. So there were a lot of things that

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Speaker 1: kind of fell apart, you know, security fell apart. I

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Speaker 1: think folks that were panicking, they were not aware of

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Speaker 1: the individuals that around them. All they could think of

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Speaker 1: was I need to get the safety. And that's that's

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Speaker 1: kind of a promptent response, isn't it. And so at

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Speaker 1: the end, though, you have all of these individuals that

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Speaker 1: are heavily compressed and in a confined area, and this

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Speaker 1: comes down to the density of the crowd. And when

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Speaker 1: people that study these sorts of things relative to movement

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Speaker 1: of humanity, uh, there's there's actually Folks don't believe this,

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Speaker 1: but there are actually areas in academia where people uh

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Speaker 1: study uh population and population at venues like this. They

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Speaker 1: make their entire career off of this. And unfortunately, I

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Speaker 1: think that a lot of the people that study these

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Speaker 1: things in academia, that data doesn't necessarily make it down

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Speaker 1: to the individuals that have their let's say, they're their

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Speaker 1: their hand on the control leavers here, and that's what

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Speaker 1: wound up happening. It was poorly managed. There wasn't an

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Speaker 1: awareness for those that might be weaker in the crowd,

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Speaker 1: and there certainly wasn't awareness of how much danger existed

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Speaker 1: in this environment. Jackie, I don't know about you, but

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Speaker 1: by the nature I'm I'm a lost photoed person. I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have done two good uh you know, in the

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Speaker 1: military on a submarine. And I think about these people

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Speaker 1: in this environment and how panicked they must have been,

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Speaker 1: you know, you begin to feel pressure on you. Maybe

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Speaker 1: there's even this fear that you can't breathe, that you

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Speaker 1: can't escape. Can you imagine how horrible that is? I

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Speaker 1: can't imagine how horrible that is, and honestly I don't

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Speaker 1: want to. Because what we know that happened is as

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Speaker 1: the crowd a fifty thou people started to searche towards

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Speaker 1: the stage, at some point these individuals were caught. They

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Speaker 1: were trapped and him the inn by the barricades set

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Speaker 1: up to protect the performers on the stage. There were

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Speaker 1: barricades on three sides, so these victims were caught and unable,

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Speaker 1: as you were mentioning earlier to to escape, they could

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Speaker 1: not get out. Um, we know that some of the

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Speaker 1: victims fell on the ground and were trampled as the

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Speaker 1: crowd searched forward. So we know, according to the medical

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Speaker 1: examiners for or that these individuals were essentially crushed to

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Speaker 1: death in the crowd compression asphyxia. So explain to me

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Speaker 1: what compression asphyxia is specifically, and then we can go

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Speaker 1: from there. Joe, Yeah, Jackie, you know, we hear the

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Speaker 1: terms phyxia all the time in death investigation and as

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Speaker 1: certainly we've learned over this past year when cases like

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Speaker 1: Gabby Petito in other cases, we know that it has

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Speaker 1: something to do with a lack of oxygen, doesn't it.

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Speaker 1: Anytime you hear this term asphyxia and in uh in

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Speaker 1: compression asphyxia specifically, it's different than say, things like a

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Speaker 1: choking or literature strangulation of hanging or or even uh say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, a smothering, even though there are some elements

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Speaker 1: that are similar. But with compression, we have to think

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Speaker 1: about two areas. First off, the chest, all right, and

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Speaker 1: then we have to think about the neck. So just imagine,

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Speaker 1: if you will, you're in a very kind of tight,

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Speaker 1: constricted space where individuals are pressing on you and are inhibiting, uh,

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Speaker 1: the your ability for your chest to rise and fall.

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Speaker 1: Remember that's one of the things that we look for

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Speaker 1: in um in in death investigation, well specifically in emergency medicine.

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Speaker 1: One of the questions I'll ask is their chest rising

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Speaker 1: and falling. What that means is are they inhalating and

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Speaker 1: exhalating air? Okay? And so absent that ability to inhalate

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Speaker 1: and exhalate, that means that you're you're not taking in

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Speaker 1: oxygen all right, your lungs are not taking it in,

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Speaker 1: and of course it has to process it. And then

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Speaker 1: of course that that oxygen rich blood that's that's transported.

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Speaker 1: You know, the oxygen is transported via the hemoglobe, and

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Speaker 1: it keeps us pumping, doesn't It keeps us going. So

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Speaker 1: you have this event where this oxygen supply is cut off.

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Speaker 1: So if you're if you expand your chest and breathe

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Speaker 1: in air, you're in trouble. Now. The other area where

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Speaker 1: compression asphyxia takes place, and something that has to be

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Speaker 1: considered is a compression of the neck. Again, an area

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Speaker 1: we've talked about where you have a pressure that is

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Speaker 1: being applied to the neck externally, externally and so that

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Speaker 1: it's it's impacting or squeezing down on the carotid vessels.

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Speaker 1: These are the two major vessels that run up the

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Speaker 1: neck and into the brain and supply the brain directly

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Speaker 1: with oxygen. And this is what happens when the oxygen

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Speaker 1: to the brain is cut off, if you will, um

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Speaker 1: or is diminished. This this results in what in a

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Speaker 1: condition that's referred to as a noxia. Individuals become a

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Speaker 1: noxic and they cannot they don't have sufficient air supply

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Speaker 1: our oxygen to the brain so that the brain can function. Remember,

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Speaker 1: and I talked about this quite a bit. The brain

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Speaker 1: is is essentially the uh most vascular organ in the body,

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Speaker 1: and what that means is that it requires the greatest

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Speaker 1: amount of blood flow is certainly oxygen eated blood, in

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Speaker 1: order to supply it with energy so that it can

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Speaker 1: process everything that goes on in our body, whether it's

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Speaker 1: it's motor movement, you know, where we're moving around, we're

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Speaker 1: blinking our eyes and all that stuff, or in the

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Speaker 1: autonomic sense auto meaning self where it's telling our heart

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Speaker 1: to beat, it's telling us to breathe, all these other

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Speaker 1: functions that we don't have to think about that just

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Speaker 1: kind of happened. That's the autonomic nervous system. So all

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Speaker 1: of that oxygen and that energy that's that's that derives

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Speaker 1: from oxygenated blood is essentially cut off at that moment

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Speaker 1: time and it can lead to catastrophic outcomes. Um, you'll

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Speaker 1: have individuals that uh may very well, at a very

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Speaker 1: i'm a level, still be technically alive, but they go

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Speaker 1: into a comatose state as a result of this oxygen deprivation.

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Speaker 1: If you will, and so in this case, there were

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Speaker 1: several people that were taken to the hospital that never

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Speaker 1: regained consciousness, and that's because they had their oxygen supply

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Speaker 1: that was removed from them. Some of these people had

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Speaker 1: to be placed on event just to keep them alive,

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Speaker 1: to see if they would if they would survive, and

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Speaker 1: of course, as we know, it didn't happen. So how

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Speaker 1: much pressure does it take to keep you from being

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Speaker 1: able to expand your lungs? We know that some of

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Speaker 1: these victims were as young as nine, so obviously it's

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Speaker 1: gonna be different, I would imagine for a child as

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Speaker 1: it would be for an adult. How much pressure does

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Speaker 1: it take to keep you from expanding your lungs? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's an excellent question. And it's going to be variable,

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Speaker 1: depended upon the person. And say, it's going to be

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Speaker 1: depended upon their structure. If you will give me a

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Speaker 1: little latitude here, It's gonna be depended upon the architectural

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Speaker 1: structure of their body. You know how robust they are,

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Speaker 1: you know how muscular they are? What kind of uh,

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Speaker 1: what kind of medical condition are are lack thereof? Do

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Speaker 1: they have any? Are they predisposed to any kind of

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Speaker 1: medical problems like long problems, are heart problems, anything that

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Speaker 1: might inhibit their ability to function at a normal level.

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Speaker 1: So you begin to impact them with weight. And let

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Speaker 1: me give you an ideas to what happened as these

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Speaker 1: individuals were essentially being I don't necessarily like the term

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Speaker 1: crushed because it implies, you know, like you're like you're

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Speaker 1: literally stepping on something to crush it. And I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that there were blunt force trauma injuries that could be

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Speaker 1: associated with with stepping on and kind of crushing, if

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Speaker 1: you will. But this is compression where you're pressing down

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Speaker 1: tighter and tighter and tighter. So let's just say, for instance,

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Speaker 1: one individual is laying on the ground and that's firm surface.

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Speaker 1: We have to assume that the ground out there was

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Speaker 1: probably an asphalt or concrete surface. And as bodies begin

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Speaker 1: to pile on top of this individual, the individual, if

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Speaker 1: they weigh say, for instance, I don't know, a hundred

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Speaker 1: forty pounds, Let's say this little child, the child was

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Speaker 1: only nine um. That child is not gonna weigh certainly,

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Speaker 1: it's not gonna weigh in excess of you know, eighty

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Speaker 1: to ninety pounds. I would think it at the top

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Speaker 1: end um. Then you have let's say, for instance, a

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Speaker 1: hundred and seventy five pound man trips and falls on

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Speaker 1: top of that child, and then another hundred and seventy

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Speaker 1: five pound man, and maybe you throw in somebody that

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Speaker 1: weighs two hund fifty pounds, and all the while that

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Speaker 1: child is being pressed down further and further and further,

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Speaker 1: and his little body cannot compensate, It can't fight against

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Speaker 1: the weight that is being applied to his body and

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Speaker 1: his his body's need to get that chest expanded so

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Speaker 1: he can breathe the air in. So the more weight

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Speaker 1: you have a the more difficult it's going to become.

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Speaker 1: Now I do know that you know i'd mentioned medical conditions.

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Speaker 1: There was one individual in this group of ten where

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Speaker 1: compression asphyxia was was made note of UH that he did,

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Speaker 1: in fact have drugs on board. I think that the

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Speaker 1: individual UH had t HC on board. He also had

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Speaker 1: meth amphetamine and these sorts of things. So you begin

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Speaker 1: to to factor that into that individual's ability to breathe

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Speaker 1: in this highly uh kind of antagonistic environment that's going

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Speaker 1: to compromise their their their body even further. Hold on, Joe, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what do you mean by that you're saying it's going

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Speaker 1: to compromise their ability. You're saying that just even if

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Speaker 1: it's marijuana, Let's say it's going to take you to

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Speaker 1: to what I mean, is it gonna it's not going

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Speaker 1: to lower your oxygen capacity, but how is it going

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Speaker 1: to impede breathing? Well? Yeah, I mean it could be

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Speaker 1: marijuana or alcohol or any number of things, but it's

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Speaker 1: going to impair your ability, your response time. For instance,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna slow your breathing anyway. So you're gonna be

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Speaker 1: compromised in that sense. And this individual, I don't know

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Speaker 1: anything about his medical history, but if he has these

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Speaker 1: drugs on board, I think that scientifically you have to

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Speaker 1: kind of sit back and scratch your head and say, well,

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Speaker 1: if he's got this history at that moment time where

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Speaker 1: he has this these drugs on board, how long has

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Speaker 1: he been engaged in the behavior utilizing things like methamphetamine

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Speaker 1: UM which can have dire respiratory outcomes just in and

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Speaker 1: of itself, and certainly it can lead to things like hypertension,

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Speaker 1: increased blood pressure, that sort of thing, And that's never

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Speaker 1: a good good situation to be in, particularly when you're

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Speaker 1: panicked and your shallow breathing and all of these things

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Speaker 1: that are going on. So it's a recipe completely for disaster.

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Speaker 1: So if you have a clear mind and you don't

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Speaker 1: you don't have any kind of drugs on board, it's

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Speaker 1: still gonna be tough. But can you imagine how further

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Speaker 1: exacerbated this condition could be as a result of having

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Speaker 1: something that would put you into an alterna mental status.

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Speaker 1: You know, you think about going to a concert. I

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Speaker 1: can't tell you over the course of my life how

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Speaker 1: many I've been to, particularly outdoor concerts. I love them. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you don't have this expectation that when you go, uh,

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Speaker 1: your life is gonna come come to an end completely

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Speaker 1: surrounded by strangers, and that there will be other people

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Speaker 1: to your left and to your right that are dying

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Speaker 1: as well. What a what a horrible way to go,

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Speaker 1: Jackie Joe. We know that these individuals kind of compression asphyxia.

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Speaker 1: We also know that some individuals fell to the ground

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Speaker 1: and were trampled. As you were saying earlier, is there

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Speaker 1: a difference in that kind of a kne injury where

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Speaker 1: the people if they died on the ground, were they

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Speaker 1: trampled or could they not breathe. Well, it's it's going

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Speaker 1: to be a combination. I think that that when you

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Speaker 1: begin to traumatize individuals by trampling them, and trampling, to me,

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Speaker 1: implies not so much positional or compressionist fix the event,

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Speaker 1: it that goes to blunt force trauma. Right and and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, Nancy Grace and I have covered cases over

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Speaker 1: the years that are quite brutal where uh, individuals have

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Speaker 1: been literally stomped to death. Okay, that's blunt force trauma. Now,

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Speaker 1: these individuals may very well and again I haven't seen

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Speaker 1: the autopsy reports, but in an event like this, you're

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Speaker 1: going to have blunt force trauma that can be identified

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Speaker 1: on that And what does that mean, Well, you you

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Speaker 1: could very well have large contusions. And some of these contusions,

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Speaker 1: and this is kind of haunting, Jackie, some of these contusions,

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Speaker 1: uh will actually have the appearance of a footprint. You

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Speaker 1: can actually see a shoe tread uh that's left behind

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Speaker 1: as a result of this. And that's just kind of

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Speaker 1: a pattern injury, which is something that we look for

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Speaker 1: in forensics all the time. You can have pattern injuries, say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, if an individual stomped on on the back

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Speaker 1: back side of their leg. Let's say they're laying face down,

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Speaker 1: you stomp on them on the back side of their

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Speaker 1: leg as you're running away. Your footprint might be on

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Speaker 1: the on say, the back of their thigh, but on

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Speaker 1: the front of their thigh, there's also gonna be uh

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Speaker 1: an evidence of an abraided area that comes from the

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Speaker 1: underlying surface. So that's happening as a result of this

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Speaker 1: compression that's taking place, but it's quickly removed. Uh. You

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Speaker 1: can have people that, say, for instance, are not senseless

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Speaker 1: because maybe the top of their head has been stepped on,

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Speaker 1: their knocked unconscious and well, now they're in a compromised

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Speaker 1: position where they don't have a level of con biousness,

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Speaker 1: but their body still requires oxygen, and they don't have

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Speaker 1: the ability to move and get up out of that

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Speaker 1: area because now they don't have any sense about them

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Speaker 1: to do this. That that primal thing is kind of

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Speaker 1: left him at this point, because that that primal response

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Speaker 1: to survival is left because they're unconscious, but yet you

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Speaker 1: still have to breathe, and all the while people are

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Speaker 1: piling on top of them, and that really paints this

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Speaker 1: horrific picture. And you know, Jackie one of the one

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Speaker 1: of the things that you know, it kind of reflects

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Speaker 1: back in my mind and I think about what what

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Speaker 1: they're faced with here in this case and making these

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Speaker 1: diagnosis and what, you know, what the road looks like

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Speaker 1: going forward. Um. First off, there is a level of

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Speaker 1: horror to these deaths that I don't think that many

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Speaker 1: people can comprehend if you've never been in this kind

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Speaker 1: of circumstance. And you know, you hear when you're around

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Speaker 1: lawyers a lot, uh like I am, you know, uh uh,

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Speaker 1: And particularly in the civil context when you're talking about

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Speaker 1: civil litigation as post criminal litigation. One of the things

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Speaker 1: that one of the measures that they do UM in

394
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Speaker 1: civil law, Remember, you don't look for guilt or innocence

395
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Speaker 1: in our guilt or not guilty in civil law, you

396
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Speaker 1: look for, uh. Damage is relative to a propensity of evidence.

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Speaker 1: That means, how much evidence do you have that demonstrates

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Speaker 1: what you're trying to trying to prove. They used the

399
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Speaker 1: term pain and suffering quite a bit, and I don't

400
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Speaker 1: know that that there are many things that could surpass

401
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: that at this level where you have this much pain

402
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 1: and suffering that's inflicted on people because it's a torturous

403
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Speaker 1: way to die. You have an awareness, many of these

404
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: people may have that they don't have an ability to

405
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Speaker 1: breathe and there's no way to escape. Can you imagine

406
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: being this panicked in this environment? And interestingly enough, when

407
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Speaker 1: you look at the history of compression asphyxia and to

408
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Speaker 1: give you an idea how how far back this goes

409
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Speaker 1: in human history? There there have been a number of

410
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Speaker 1: crushing events that go hundreds of years back, you know,

411
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Speaker 1: where people have panicked and run run over. But a

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Speaker 1: lot of people don't realize that that compression asphyxia has

413
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Speaker 1: actually been used as a method of execution, and famously,

414
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Speaker 1: famously was actually utilized as a method of execution during

415
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Speaker 1: the Salem witch trials. There was one fellow that that

416
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Speaker 1: had stated and it's actually included in Arthur Miller's play

417
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Speaker 1: The Crucible, and this is this is documented accused this

418
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Speaker 1: guy being a witch, and they they put him between

419
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Speaker 1: two boards and began to stack weight on him and

420
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Speaker 1: until he would confess. And the guy never confessed. And

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Speaker 1: the only thing he ever said, Jack, you know what

422
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Speaker 1: he said, because he was not going to confess, he's

423
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 1: ay more weight, more weight, and they would put more

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00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 1: and more stones on top of his body until he

425
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Speaker 1: finally succumbed. And that's a very slow form of compressionist fixing.

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Speaker 1: It's torturous. You said it's a slow form, Joe. How

427
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Speaker 1: long would it take for you to die due to

428
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Speaker 1: compression asphyxia? How long did these victims suffer? I think

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Speaker 1: that this is this is the real horrific part of it.

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Speaker 1: And I have to go back to an example of say,

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Speaker 1: specific applied pressure. When you're talking about again in the

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Speaker 1: case of Cavvy Potito, where you're talking about where she

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Speaker 1: was throttled, where she had had hands wrapped around her throat,

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Speaker 1: and that is sustained pressure. Her death would have probably

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Speaker 1: have been a bit quicker because with this kind of uh,

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Speaker 1: compressionist phyxia, you might get a pause in there where

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Speaker 1: the weight shifts. And this is a very dynamic environment

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Speaker 1: because you've got people that are piling on top of

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Speaker 1: one another and they're rolling about and this sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: So you might have an opportunity in there where you're

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Speaker 1: being compressed and all of a sudden the weight shifts.

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Speaker 1: You can catch your breath again, but then the weight

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Speaker 1: shifts back, and this could this could take I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It could potentially take ten minutes for some of these

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Speaker 1: people to have died, and I think that that goes

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Speaker 1: to how torturous and laborious, uh this event would have been. UH.

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Speaker 1: And that's because it's it's you have a shifting of

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Speaker 1: weight that's going on because of the dynamics of the environment. Remember,

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Speaker 1: this is a frenzied crowd. People are running about, people

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Speaker 1: are screaming, people are rolling about. It's not like there's

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Speaker 1: constant pressure being applied specifically to them for the entire

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Speaker 1: duration until all life is gone. So it's very dynamic,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's gonna be very difficult for the

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Speaker 1: medical examiner if they have to get on the stand

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Speaker 1: in a case like this to actually give a specific

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Speaker 1: measure of I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body backs.