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Speaker 1: Media. What's visible my celebrity penises? This is Behind the

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Speaker 1: Bastards a podcast where Drake's dick just got leaked on Twitter.

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Speaker 1: I didn't see it, but I have have a celebrity

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Speaker 1: penis story for you all. If you if you watch

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Speaker 1: the movie Galaxy Quest, in the scene where Tim Allen's

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Speaker 1: in his house and like rummaging around his ship when

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Speaker 1: the Aliens come to like visit, and he bends over

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Speaker 1: at one point wearing a bathrobe, and you see Tim

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Speaker 1: Allen's dick. So if you have ever wanted to see

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Speaker 1: Tim Allen's penis, there you go.

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Speaker 2: Is this is breaking news, Joe.

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Speaker 1: Not huge stuff, not huge penis, but huge story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Apparently apparently Drake.

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Speaker 3: Drake was out here looking like a like a used

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Speaker 3: car lot, you know, just flopping the shit around.

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Speaker 2: I missed it.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 1: That's a good one. That's a good one.

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Speaker 2: Wish wish I missed it yet. Shout out to Musk

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Speaker 2: for having lack of safety.

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Speaker 1: Features on Twitter. This is Behind the Bastards a podcast

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Speaker 1: about famous people's genitalia. Yeah, it's also a podcast about

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Speaker 1: Robert E. Lee And actually we're about to start at

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Speaker 1: an earthquake.

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Speaker 2: That just happened.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we just had an earthquake. Just at an

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Speaker 1: earthquake California.

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Speaker 2: What a day? All right?

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Speaker 1: Speaking of celebrity penises prop this is part four of

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Speaker 1: our series on Robert E. Lee and horse Man. When

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Speaker 1: you talk about Robert E. Lee, you know, the question

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Speaker 1: everyone has is did he fuck his horse Traveler?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: This is something historians have debated about for generations.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm seriously like this whole time. When we

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Speaker 3: first started talking about doing these episodes, I'm talking at

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty three, when we started doing this, that was

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Speaker 3: my first question.

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Speaker 1: I was like, are we going to talk about the horse?

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Speaker 1: Are we gonna talk about the horse? Now? It's undeniable

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Speaker 1: that Lee held a special fondness for his horse Traveler,

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Speaker 1: which is why he loved that horse, which is why

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Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen, Funnier Die put together a commemorative flag

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Speaker 1: celebrating Robert E. Lee's love for his steed, and we're

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Speaker 1: gonna put that. We will probably have that image leader

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Speaker 1: our episode.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's great.

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Speaker 1: You know the it's the only version of the Confederate

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Speaker 1: flag that that I think has some historical value. The

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Speaker 1: stars and bars with Lee fucking Traveler right in the moment,

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Speaker 1: man pants at his ankles. Oh yeah, couldn't even get up,

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Speaker 1: couldn't even get those pants off? Yeah, good god, almighty.

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Speaker 1: What if this was on the hood of the General

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Speaker 1: Lee bro.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And my dad was still such a real one

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Speaker 3: and was like, so you need to see this your.

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Speaker 1: Face to see some people really like horses. They so

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Speaker 1: let's get into the history of this here. Because Lee's horse, Traveler,

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Speaker 1: developed a fan following like during the war, really like

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Speaker 1: this horse is people cannot say enough about Traveler, and

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Speaker 1: that that fan following really accelerates to kind of a

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Speaker 1: ridiculous degree after the war. This kind of obsession with

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Speaker 1: Traveler as like the perfect horse. It mirrors this obsession

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Speaker 1: with Lee as the perfect Southern man. And it is

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Speaker 1: also a part of the Lost Cause mythology.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, kind of like a night rider, Yes, Michael knighton

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Speaker 3: kit in the car.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the kit of the kit of being a

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Speaker 1: traitor as slavehole in truth.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Fitz Hugh Lee's fawning biography of his of his relative

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Speaker 1: Robert E. Lee is part of the process of canonizing

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Speaker 1: both Robert E. Lee and canonizing Traveler, an animal that

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Speaker 1: had no idea what it was doing. Let's be clear

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Speaker 1: about that. Traveler is not a bad is incapable of

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Speaker 1: understanding what it's fighting for.

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Speaker 3: Not the topic of the Bastard episode. No, and it's

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Speaker 3: in Bystanderd here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a police dog does not realize what

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Speaker 1: it's being used, doesn't know it's doesn't know it's racist.

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Speaker 2: Just yeah, yeah, biting people, does it? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Now that biography by fitz you Lee cites a letter

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Speaker 1: that Lee wrote to his daughter when she asked him

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Speaker 1: basically like, Hey, I've got an artist friend and like Traveler.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's talking about how noble and wonderful your horse is.

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Speaker 1: My artist friend wants to draw a picture of Traveler.

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Speaker 1: Would you send along a description? Now, I want you

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Speaker 1: to listen to how Roberty Lee describes his horse, and

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Speaker 1: you tell me if this is These are the words

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Speaker 1: of a man who is not fucking his horse.

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Speaker 3: He's been a give fifty shades of gray, honest. Right

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Speaker 3: now he about to stand in a supermarket.

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Speaker 1: Ye, here's Lee. If I was an artist like you,

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Speaker 1: I would draw a true picture of Traveler, representing his

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Speaker 1: fine proportions, muscular figure, deep chest and short back. Strong haunches,

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Speaker 1: flat legs, small head, broad forehead, delicate ears, quick eye,

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Speaker 1: small feet in black mane and dale. Such a picture

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Speaker 1: would inspire a poet whose genius could then depict his

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Speaker 1: worth and describe his endurance of toil, hunger, thirst, heat, cold,

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Speaker 1: and the dangers and suffering through which he passed. He

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Speaker 1: could dilate upon his sagacity and affection and his invariable

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Speaker 1: response to every wish of his writer. Now sure, when

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Speaker 1: he uses the word dilate, dilate, it could be using it.

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Speaker 1: Definition number three in the American Heritage Dictionary is to

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Speaker 1: speak or write at great length on a subject. Perhaps

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Speaker 1: that's what Lee means, but one could also read this

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Speaker 1: as him admitting that his horse could dilate on command

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Speaker 1: to the every wish of his writer, you know, to

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Speaker 1: make their forbidden love making easier. And this is the

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Speaker 1: interpretation of his words that I choose to take. That's

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Speaker 1: why you read original sources, kids, You learn stuff like

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Speaker 1: this because yeah, he said what he mean.

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Speaker 3: There's definitely very much a sounded like sir mix a

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Speaker 3: lot of the eighteen hundreds on some like Baby Got Back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's it's kind of like, you know, the

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Speaker 1: song Joelene. It's a great, great song. But also my

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Speaker 1: head cannon for the song Joelene is that the woman

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Speaker 1: singing that is less worried that her man's gonna leave

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Speaker 1: her from Joelene and more nursing a crush herself, because

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Speaker 1: you simply you don't describe a romantic rival that way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she's into Jolene. Yeah, and Roberty Lee is into his horse,

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Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, that's the only that's that's my interpretation.

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Speaker 3: So I mean, that's the only one I'm willing to accept,

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Speaker 3: you know, already weird and yeah, well you know what,

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Speaker 3: never mind, I'm not gonna call him.

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Speaker 2: I'm not gonna call it weird, Okay, forgive me. I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna be more tolerant. But that poor horse, Yeah, that

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Speaker 2: poor poor horse.

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Speaker 1: Uh if only we'd had like a mister Hands sort

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Speaker 1: of situation with Roberty Lee.

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Speaker 2: But alas.

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Speaker 1: So, now that we've gotten the horse fucking out of

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Speaker 1: the way, it's necessary that we spend some time talking

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Speaker 1: about Lee's actual performance in battle. His personal nobility, which

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Speaker 1: I think we have deflated in the preceding episodes, is

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Speaker 1: one part of the pillar that bears him as the

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Speaker 1: central figure of the lost cosmethology. But obviously you can

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Speaker 1: be a shitty person and a great general, right. History

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Speaker 1: is full of bad falls. I would go so far

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Speaker 1: as to say most great generals probably sucked as human beings.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: One of the things you have to be in order

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Speaker 1: to be a great general is willing to send a

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Speaker 1: lot of people to their deaths.

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Speaker 2: You know, yeah, the job requires it.

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Speaker 3: It's like being a billionaire, Like, at some point you

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Speaker 3: have to not give a shit about human value.

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Speaker 1: We can debate, there's arguments as to like how much

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Speaker 1: of the of the Soviet death toll was necessary? Did

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Speaker 1: Zukov was he too kind of loose with the lives

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Speaker 1: of his men? But also the Nazis had to be stopped,

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Speaker 1: and at a certain point you had to just throw

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Speaker 1: lives at the problem. So, like, you know, I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying that making the decision to send men off to

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Speaker 1: death is necessarily a moral Sometimes it's necessary, right, But

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Speaker 1: what I am getting at is like another pillar of

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Speaker 1: lost cost mythology is this idea that Lee was not

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Speaker 1: just a noble man, which I think we busted, but

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Speaker 1: that he was the greatest field commander that the US

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Speaker 1: produced in the nineteenth century. That is law. That is

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Speaker 1: how you will Yeah, that is how you'll see him described.

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Speaker 1: And this is how jubil Early, one of Lee's generals,

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Speaker 1: eulogized him. Our beloved chief stands like some lofty column

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Speaker 1: which rears its head, among the highest in grandeur, simple, pure,

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Speaker 1: and sublime. Biographer Roy Blunt Junior described Lee as one

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Speaker 1: of the greatest military commanders in history, although he noted

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Speaker 1: that Lee was quote not good at telling men what

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Speaker 1: to do, which would seem to be a contradiction. Like

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Speaker 1: a great commander is definitionally about commanding troops. So like

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Speaker 1: Blunt is doing kind of some lost cause. Shit here,

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Speaker 1: I don't know how you he was a great commander.

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Speaker 1: He couldn't order men to do stuff though.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's almost like he's a comedian, Like, yeah, our

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Speaker 3: humor is so like I think there is a possibility

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Speaker 3: that he's like kind of like cracking a joke here,

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Speaker 3: he's like greatest commander of all time.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't really good. I like telling people what to do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was the greatest. I was the

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Speaker 1: greatest basketball player of my generation. I couldn't dunk or

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Speaker 1: make three pointers, you know, good it was a really

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Speaker 1: good at dribbling either, never actually played much basketball, but

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Speaker 1: telling you greatest, telling the very best.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: Now, the best book length summary of Lee's actual strength

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Speaker 1: and weaknesses as a commander that I have read is

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Speaker 1: Lee Considered by Alan Nolan, and it is, by the way,

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Speaker 1: really good book, very readable. I recommend it heavily. It

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Speaker 1: gives a wonderful rundown of some of the most extreme

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Speaker 1: superlatives thrown Lee's way in post lost Cause history books.

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Speaker 1: The nineteen eighty nine edition of Encyclopedia Americana states that

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Speaker 1: Lee was one of the truly gifted commanders of all time,

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Speaker 1: one of the greatest, if not the greatest soldier who

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Speaker 1: ever spoke the English language. The entry for Lee in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen eighty nine Encyclopedia Britannica reflects a similar judgment.

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Speaker 1: According to the nineteen eighty eight revised edition of the

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Speaker 1: Civil War Dictionary, Lee earned rank with history's most distinguished generals. Now,

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Speaker 1: what the kind of easiest reppost to this is like,

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Speaker 1: he lost? How you be that good of he fucking lost?

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Speaker 1: I will actually push back against that a bit, not

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Speaker 1: in Lee, but that I don't think you have to

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Speaker 1: have won your war to they claim to being one

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Speaker 1: of the greatest generals in all of history. Most contenders

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Speaker 1: for that greatest general title did conquer a lot of land,

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Speaker 1: did win a bunch of wars, right, Napoleon wins a

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Speaker 1: number of wars, conquers most of Western Europe, defeats multiple

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Speaker 1: nations and decisive battles. He does eventually lose, but he

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Speaker 1: wins a lot before he loses. And that's the sheer

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Speaker 1: number of field battles that he won is like a

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Speaker 1: big part of like, you can't really argue the man

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Speaker 1: was put one of the best to ever live at

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Speaker 1: commanding armies in the field.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, absolutely put up numbers. There's another way around that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And there's there's a number of generals like that.

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Speaker 1: Irwin Rommel is an example. His cult of personality is

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Speaker 1: kind of similar to Lee, right, where like there's this

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Speaker 1: at it need to like he was one of the

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Speaker 1: good Germans in that war. He was a fundamentally moral

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Speaker 1: man within an evil system. And he was also just

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Speaker 1: this genius, brilliant tactician. That is not accurate. He was

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Speaker 1: not as good as his historical reputation, but I think

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Speaker 1: the consensus is he was not like a bad field commander,

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Speaker 1: like he just it gets exaggerated well past the point

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Speaker 1: of rationality.

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Speaker 3: And I would even say too, like, I mean, at

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Speaker 3: the end of the day, you got to check the scoreboard.

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Speaker 3: But you know, when it comes to something like as

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Speaker 3: complicated and messy and unpredictable as war, it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: there's so many other factors that factor into you know,

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Speaker 3: freaking weather, like you're saying, like this could be the weather.

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Speaker 3: You know, just so many things factor into it that

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Speaker 3: don't necessarily.

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Speaker 2: Mean you were a good or bad general. It's just

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Speaker 2: things happen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And because of that there are great like

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Speaker 1: the best example of a guy who lost his war

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Speaker 1: who was nonetheless rightly regarded as among the very Charles Barkley. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: the Charles Barkley of Carthage, Hannibal Barka right. Hannibal loses

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Speaker 1: his war against the Romans. He loses the Battle of Zama,

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Speaker 1: which is the final battle of the Second Punic War,

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Speaker 1: and he loses. After that, he continues to fight a

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Speaker 1: naval war against Rome for some other people, and he

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Speaker 1: loses a number of battles there. He is still universally

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Speaker 1: there's really no argument that he is one of the

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Speaker 1: most talented and skilled field generals who ever ever existed

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Speaker 1: in the history of human conflict. And there's it's because

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Speaker 1: when you look at what he actually did in the field,

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Speaker 1: you simply can't deny the brilliance. The Battle of cane I,

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Speaker 1: which is his like crowning moment, is basically this massive

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Speaker 1: Roman army larger than his he is able to double envelope.

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Speaker 1: He completely encircles them and massacres them to the man

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Speaker 1: at the loss of very few of his troops. It

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Speaker 1: is such a victory that if you read what German

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Speaker 1: generals were writing in like the early stages of World

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Speaker 1: War One, like why they were ex secuting the plans

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Speaker 1: they were executing twenty two hundred years after the Battle

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Speaker 1: of can I, all of these German generals we're talking

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Speaker 1: about wanting to do a can I, right, Hannibal bark

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Speaker 1: At was like the it was the like the high

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Speaker 1: watermark for generalship for longer than Christianity has.

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Speaker 2: Been, long as Christianity existed. Yes, it is as long

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Speaker 2: as there's been the faith.

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Speaker 1: He's been Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think too, like just the fact that

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Speaker 3: like history essentially, like the only reason we know what

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Speaker 3: we know is because some dude kept a diary. You know,

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Speaker 3: so if a dude like was that impressive to the

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Speaker 3: points of where somebody wrote it down, like Yo, this

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Speaker 3: Hannibal kid, the kid is a cold piece of work, y'all.

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Speaker 2: And you know what I'm saying, and it lasts he's like,

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Speaker 2: we won, yeah, but dang god, damn. Yeah, the kid

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Speaker 2: is cold.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he made it all the way to now it's

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Speaker 3: just some dude' john diary right to his wife like yeah.

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Speaker 1: Shit, yeah, this guy scary as was whooping my yeah.

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Speaker 1: And Lee gets compared to Hannibal a lot because again,

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Speaker 1: they both lose their war, but they're both seen as like, well,

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Speaker 1: they fought so well despite they were outnumbered. The other

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Speaker 1: nation had a much better industrial base. You know, it

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Speaker 1: was a doomed cause from the beginning, but they still

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Speaker 1: almost pulled it off. And that's what makes them great.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: That's true for Hannibal. I don't think there's any realistic

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you can find some historians, but I think

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Speaker 1: the vast consensus is, yeah, the man was a fucking

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Speaker 1: genius at war. That is not true for Robert E. Lee,

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Speaker 1: And it's not true based on his very clearly documented record.

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Speaker 2: Robert E.

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Speaker 1: Lee was one of the first four generals named for

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Speaker 1: the Confederate States, but he was not as soon as

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Speaker 1: Virginia gets, you know, integrated into the Confederacy. He is

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Speaker 1: not the top general yet, right, He's actually below two

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Speaker 1: other generals, Samuel Cooper and Albert Sidney Johnson. And in

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Speaker 1: the early days of the war, because he's kind of

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Speaker 1: trying to give his thoughts on everything, like what should

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Speaker 1: we do here, what should we do here? He gets

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Speaker 1: ignored by other commanders a lot. But there's a point

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Speaker 1: where like they're looking at like Manassas, which they think

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Speaker 1: the Union is going to attack. They know the Union

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Speaker 1: is going to attack, and Lee is like, I think

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Speaker 1: we should fortify Manasses and hold it in a defensive action,

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Speaker 1: and PGT. Beauregard declines to fortify Manasses as Lead had advised,

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Speaker 1: and then said, counter attacks the Union advance. This is

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Speaker 1: the Battle of bull Run, and the Confederacy wins the

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Speaker 1: Battle of bull Run. So Beauregard ignores Lee's advice and

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Speaker 1: wins one of the earliest critical battles for the Confederacy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, everyone's heard of bull Run right, Yeah, that is,

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Speaker 1: he wins it doing the opposite of what Lee had

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Speaker 1: suggested he do. Now, you can't call this a failure

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Speaker 1: on Lee's part, right, because like that's just part of

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Speaker 1: any functional military. You're gonna you guys proposing. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: it is an example of two commanders, because it was

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Speaker 1: I think Johnson and Beauregard at bull Run. It's an

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Speaker 1: example of two commanders ignoring Lee's advice and then winning, right,

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Speaker 1: which is certainly does not suggest like the greatest miliity

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Speaker 1: terry mind America ever produced. Right, Yeah, Now, Lincoln responds

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Speaker 1: to bull Run by moving Union troops into Western Virginia,

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Speaker 1: which was at the time just part of normal Virginia. Right,

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Speaker 1: We're talking about like the region, not the state, state,

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Speaker 1: the physical location, yeah, of the place. Now, this is

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Speaker 1: going to be where Lee has his first combat command

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Speaker 1: of the Civil War. His opponent, initially McClelland's going to

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Speaker 1: get transferred to. His opponent initially is George McClellan, and

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Speaker 1: likely McClellan is a Mexican War veteran. In fact, during

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Speaker 1: the Mexican American War, McClellan had reported to Lee as

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Speaker 1: a junior lieutenant and he and Lee are kind of

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Speaker 1: mirrors of each other in a way, and that they

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Speaker 1: both owe this sudden rise to command into like being

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Speaker 1: generals to the Civil War. McClellan is also like personally,

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Speaker 1: he's really sympathetic to the South. He likes Southerners better

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Speaker 1: than he likes Northerners. But he's also just not a

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Speaker 1: fucking trader.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, not a great general either, but he's not a trader. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So he has some initial success in West Virginia. He

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Speaker 1: overruns another Confederate commander's forces in West Virginia right about

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Speaker 1: the same time Beauregard and Johnson win Bull Run. Now,

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Speaker 1: because the Union has suffered this defeated bull Run, but

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Speaker 1: McClelland has had this kind of smaller success. This is

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Speaker 1: just basic propaganda, right. Lincoln's people are like, well, we

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Speaker 1: got our asses kicked here, but like this guy saw wins,

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Speaker 1: so we really need to hype this, right. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: this is also probably where we should pour more resources into. Right,

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Speaker 1: we had one win. Maybe if we give we put

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Speaker 1: some more men into this, we put some more power

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Speaker 1: behind this, they can crack in further.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So Lee gets sent to counter this Union advance, right,

349
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Speaker 1: and Jefferson Davis orders Lee to strike a decisive blow

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Speaker 1: in West Virginia. Lee takes command of the Confederacy's Northwest Well,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't quite take command of the Confederacy's Northwest Army,

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Speaker 1: but he's sent there, right, he's sent there, and people

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Speaker 1: who treat it as if he's going to be in

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Speaker 1: command of the army. And this causes a fever pitch

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Speaker 1: if it, excitement to build back in the Confederate Capitol. Now,

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Speaker 1: remember Lee had been lauded prior to the start of

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Speaker 1: the war as the best soldier in the United States, Right,

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Speaker 1: That's was the the buzz around him, And so there's

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Speaker 1: this excitement like, man, yeah, Johnson and uh and Beauregard

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Speaker 1: did great at bull Rum, But like Lee's really gonna

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Speaker 1: fucking kick there.

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Speaker 2: Like he's gonna really start getting hot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, Okay, So this is a big news

364
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,320
Speaker 1: story that Lee's about to be, you know, finally in action,

365
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Speaker 1: and people at the time follow it kind of like

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Speaker 1: they follow celebrity gossip today. When he's finally sent into

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Speaker 1: the fight, his fans are so certain that he's gonna

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Speaker 1: be like huge that they write a song about him.

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Speaker 1: Oh God, who dare invade our homes and country braggarts,

370
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Speaker 1: though the villains b will dose them well with shot

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Speaker 1: and bullets, to the tune of General Lee, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: not a great song, but uh yeah whatever Lee's father.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I went to that one.

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Speaker 1: So Lee's fought had once owned most of this state,

375
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Speaker 1: like most of West Virginia. Right when lighthorse Harry's trying

376
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Speaker 1: his like land buying schemes to get rich like he

377
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Speaker 1: this is where like his million acres are, and obviously

378
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,040
Speaker 1: it does him no good. He loses it all, And

379
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Speaker 1: Robert E. Lee is about to make losing West Virginia

380
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Speaker 1: a family tradition because he follows his dance footsteps here.

381
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Speaker 1: He may have had some inkling of this when he

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Speaker 1: wrote this to his wife while traveling the countryside with

383
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Speaker 1: his army. What a glorious world, Almighty God has given us,

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Speaker 1: How thankless and ungrateful we are, and how we labor

385
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Speaker 1: to mar his gifts. He's just being a little emo there, like, Wow,

386
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,040
Speaker 1: the world is so beautiful. Why are we wasting all

387
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Speaker 1: of our time in lives fighting this hideous war?

388
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Speaker 2: O for it? Yeah in Virginia.

389
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm saying he was making fun of the trees

390
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Speaker 3: in Virginia early. They'll be pretty without me, now, you

391
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:56,159
Speaker 3: see it. Huh.

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Speaker 1: So the army, the Northwest Army that he kind of inherit,

393
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Speaker 1: and we're building to like the degree to which he's

394
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Speaker 1: actually in command, but he kind of inherits this army.

395
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 1: It's in really bad shape. Again, it's still basically it's

396
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,600
Speaker 1: like halfway between a militia and being turned into a

397
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,560
Speaker 1: proper fighting force. Okay, shit's so primitive right now. He

398
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 1: doesn't have a uniform, right, he's just like wearing he

399
00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,479
Speaker 1: just guys like kind of a gray jacket that he's wearing.

400
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 3: Right, Hey, guys, just pair comfy shorts, some good strong boots.

401
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:26,240
Speaker 3: It just just a way for me to be able

402
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,080
Speaker 3: to tell which one of y'all is us. Okay, So

403
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,920
Speaker 3: just yeah, don't shoot me please, like you're about to ude.

404
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:31,719
Speaker 3: It's stonewall.

405
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:32,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

406
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,240
Speaker 1: So he's also to make matters worse. Everyone's gotten measles.

407
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 1: Like the whole army is sick as hell. That's not

408
00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,760
Speaker 1: his fault, that happens to everybody. Yeah, I was like, yeah,

409
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,359
Speaker 1: welcome to the eighteen hundreds. All of these people are

410
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 1: shitting themselves to death as they're fighting the civil war

411
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,640
Speaker 1: and to make matters worse, and this is what really

412
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,120
Speaker 1: is promised. Jefferson Davis is a fucking dipshit, right, so

413
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,720
Speaker 1: he orders Lee to smash the Union forces here, but

414
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 1: he doesn't actually put him in command of this army

415
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:03,120
Speaker 1: Right league. Lee is an advisor to the Northwest Army Right,

416
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,800
Speaker 1: and so the senior officers who he's trying to give

417
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,680
Speaker 1: orders to, he's not technically directly in charge of them,

418
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Speaker 1: and they don't want to listen to him. I think

419
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:13,560
Speaker 1: in part they may have been aware that he was

420
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,480
Speaker 1: wrong about bull run so like. And this is again,

421
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 1: this is not specifically Lee's fault, because Davis made the

422
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,440
Speaker 1: bad decision to not actually put him in proper command,

423
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 1: but also a better general. One of the things people

424
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,720
Speaker 1: will say about Lee, and we kind of mentioned this earlier,

425
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 1: he's actually really bad at giving direct orders to people,

426
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,159
Speaker 1: and he's not good at personal conflict. You got some

427
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:36,880
Speaker 1: of this in the last episode where he can never

428
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:38,920
Speaker 1: admit that he's turning trade with friends.

429
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Speaker 2: Daniel Square, you got a coat.

430
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Speaker 1: He's a little bit of a coward. He can't actually

431
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 1: stand up for himself, and so he's unable to master

432
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Speaker 1: this situation. I think a stronger commander, even if you're

433
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Speaker 1: not legally in command, just be like, look, man, I

434
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,399
Speaker 1: will fucking beat the shit out of you myself if

435
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 1: you don't do what I'm saying right, I will have

436
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 1: a moment of my boys fucking cap you. You are

437
00:21:58,280 --> 00:21:59,679
Speaker 1: going to do this? You know.

438
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 3: I wonder if any of the like dudes in the

439
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:08,160
Speaker 3: ranks kind of heard how he even got it, got

440
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 3: the position that like he did it in kind of

441
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:13,760
Speaker 3: like a coward way where it was like, oh, you

442
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 3: wouldn't even tell him no, and like you said you

443
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 3: was gonna you just didn't respond Like gods sound like

444
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,199
Speaker 3: God sound a little soft to me, homie. Like I

445
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 3: wonder if they like caught wind of that and they

446
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 3: was like os flowin, got no backbone whatever.

447
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 1: I think that's probably not well known to his guy. Again,

448
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,160
Speaker 1: how many of them can read you.

449
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,200
Speaker 2: Know, touche touche.

450
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, so Lee, in order to kind of compensate for

451
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 1: the fact that these guys are not listening to him,

452
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,439
Speaker 1: he winds up having to like carry out reconnaissance missions himself,

453
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 1: which is an insane thing for a.

454
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 2: General general zone.

455
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, because like they won't listen to him, they won't

456
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 1: do what he needs doing. In September, he's able to

457
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 1: kind of get everyone to launch an attack, and he

458
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 1: patterns this attack after the victory that he'd won with

459
00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,879
Speaker 1: Scott in the Mexican War in Sarah Gordo. There's a

460
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 1: lot of excitement in Confederate media over the fact that

461
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 1: he's about to do this. The Richmond Inquirer predicts that

462
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,639
Speaker 1: his victory would quote stand as a monument to his fame,

463
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 1: of which any professor of the military art, however gifted

464
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 1: or fortunate, might well be proud. So again, this slost

465
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 1: cause shit starts before he's actually done anything. And yeahs

466
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 1: as it adds up.

467
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, when I was when I was prepared for the

468
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,640
Speaker 3: Lost Cause stuff, I was like, damn this, we got prequels,

469
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 3: like we add into a prequel to his mug And.

470
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 1: As a as a decide, it's a fucking disaster. I'm

471
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 1: going to quote from. Lee considered here, orders and communications

472
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,679
Speaker 1: went awry, and the attack fizzled. The next day, Struggling

473
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 1: to retrieve something from the failure, Lee looked for a

474
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 1: path that would the Federals and put out reconnaissance parties

475
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 1: all around Sheet Mountain. One of these, John Washington, a

476
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: cousin by marriage, blundered into a Union picket line, and

477
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: in the Fuselata bullets, Washington was shot dead. For the

478
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 1: first time. The war had reached into the wide circle

479
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,440
Speaker 1: of Lee's relations and struck down one who's intimate asation

480
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 1: and for some months has been more fully disclosed to

481
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 1: me his great worth than double so many years of

482
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 1: ordinary intercourse would have been sufficient to reveal. So not

483
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 1: only got his cousin kill, Yeah, he gets his fucking

484
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 1: cousin killed awkwardly like because he winds up blundering into

485
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: the Union lines. Because Lee cannot take command of this

486
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: fucking army like they won't listen when he says to attack.

487
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 1: It is just comprehensively a disaster. Now, because this is

488
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 1: such a failure, the papers even start second guessing Lee.

489
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 2: At this point.

490
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 1: Jeb Stewart, his former student, even described himself as disappointed

491
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 1: in Lee. Lee chased that failure with more failures. He

492
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: became despondent, writing to Washington's family that their son was

493
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:46,400
Speaker 1: better off dead because the Confederacy's current position is so miserable.

494
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: In short order, Lee and the Confederacy had to basically

495
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 1: flee everything in Virginia between the Blue Ridge Mountains and

496
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 1: the Ohio River. The ultimate result of this is the

497
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 1: state of West Virginia. We get West Virginia because Lee

498
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: looses it so ba badly right away. The first thing

499
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 1: he gets to do is loose West Virginia.

500
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 3: I tend to think of the Confederacy in the professional

501
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 3: career length of Nirvana, because Nirvana lasted longer than the Confederations. Yeah,

502
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,719
Speaker 3: and like at this point, like never mind, hasn't even dropped,

503
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 3: he'den already lost. Yeah, these baby wars, Yeah, you've got

504
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 3: Dave grow yet he already lost these wars.

505
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: One of the things I will point out is that

506
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 1: like Rojava, the autonomous kind of quasi anarchist region in

507
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 1: northeast Syria that like has been independent, has number one,

508
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 1: won a war against ISIS, and at this point been

509
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: around almost three times as long as the Confederacy, and

510
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: like these people have no industrial base whatsoever. Yeah, yeah,

511
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 1: Like it is the degree to which the Confederacy is

512
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: a shit show. And this really shows it, right, This

513
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,880
Speaker 1: isn't all on Lee, except for the fact that Lee

514
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: chose to join this shit show.

515
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:07,360
Speaker 2: Of a cause, right.

516
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: They won't listen to him, His boss will not actually

517
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: give him the command he needs to carry things out,

518
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: and Lee is unable to master the situation. He gets

519
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 1: his fucking cousin killed and then flees West Virginia with

520
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: his tail between his legs. LMAO. Yeah, you know who

521
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: doesn't lose West Virginia.

522
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 2: Oh, nigga, he's products.

523
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. In fact, our podcast is sponsored

524
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: entirely by the state of West Virginia. West Virginia, we're

525
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: a state. We're back. So Bobby Lee, our buddy Robert,

526
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,360
Speaker 1: is heartbroken at the loss of West Virginia and at

527
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: the general quality of the Confederate Army. It is unruly.

528
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: The militia is so unreliable. Like one of the things

529
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 1: he has to deal with is that when he takes

530
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 1: kind of command of the army, three regiments disappear like

531
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: they were militia who had shown up and then decided

532
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 1: before the fighting started, actually, we don't want to be

533
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: in the Confederacy because they're not an army. Yeah, because

534
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 1: it's not an army.

535
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 2: It's not an army. They just go the fuck home.

536
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: This bullshit.

537
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: One of the things he is good at he's a

538
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: competent organizational leader, and he does have a major role

539
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: to play in the fact that the quality of the

540
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: Confederate Army improves markedly.

541
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 2: Right.

542
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 1: Some of this is just people get experience as combat

543
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: goes on. But he formalizes a chain of command, he

544
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: sets up stuff like quartermasters, like he's a major part

545
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 1: of that. And this is the stuff that he's reasonably

546
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 1: good at, you know, like it's organizational shit. But that's

547
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 1: obviously important, right.

548
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 2: Dwight D.

549
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: Eisenhower, for example, is not I don't think he ever

550
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: sees a shot fired in anger. But he's like a

551
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 1: really competent as Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, his

552
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: job is like administrative, you know, and that's necessary. You

553
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: can't win a war, a big war without it.

554
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: You can't be a brawler only yeah you gotta have

555
00:27:59,560 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 2: a book.

556
00:27:59,880 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 3: No.

557
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is by the way, a lot of people

558
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: the Spartan mythology is so like all based around how

559
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: great they were as fighters. That's not why Sparta when

560
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 1: Sparta had its period of military dominance, it was because

561
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: of how much better organized.

562
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 2: They were as staily organized.

563
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, they had they were competently organized and could

564
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: number one, survive defeats and also could like better provision

565
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: and equip their soldiers and keep them in the field

566
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 1: more effectively. Like it was not because they were just

567
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,719
Speaker 1: all really good at one on one combat. They were

568
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: not really any better than anybody else. But they did

569
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: have a more functional state behind them. That's like, you'll

570
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: get the Roman Empire, right, Why did the Roman Empire?

571
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: Why was it such an unprecedented success for so long? Well,

572
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: it wasn't because they were the best at war, as

573
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: like on a battle to battle basis, they lose all

574
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: of Roman history is like they sent seventy thousand men

575
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: out and all of them died. Yeah, and then they

576
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: sent another seventy thousand.

577
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

578
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a ton of them, and it was

579
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 3: like it was a bureaucracy. Yeah, it was an amazing bureaucracy,

580
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 3: because you can't have you can't have outposts all the

581
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 3: way in Germany and not be a bureaucracy.

582
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: No, Like, what made them great in part is the

583
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: fact that they had this ability to they could take

584
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: a punch like a modern state can. Like back in

585
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: the day, most of their rivals, they have the army

586
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: and if the army loses, that's the army, right, like

587
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: you fucked Yeah, Rome had armies, they have an industrial base. Anyway,

588
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: we're getting off topic here, but like that is that is,

589
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: you know, a big part of his early job. And

590
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: this is not something he's bad at, right, He's not

591
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: the only one doing this, but this is an area

592
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: of competence for Lee. In June eighteen sixty two, he

593
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 1: takes command of the Army of Northern Virginia and in

594
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: an extremely effective campaign he fights off several federal offensives

595
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: and saves the capital, Richmond. This is where a lot

596
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: of like the you know, the genius Lee thing comes from.

597
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: And this is an efective campaign one of the things

598
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: we're building towards because I am going to make the

599
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: case I think he was bad at his job, but

600
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: he is not bad at every part of his job.

601
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: He is a competent not the best we ever produced,

602
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: but a competent field commander of armies. He orchestrates a

603
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: campaign in Pennsylvania next and an attempt to take territory

604
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: from the north and threaten the US capital that ends

605
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: at Gettysburg. And during this period from him taking command

606
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: of the Army of Northern Virginia to Gettysburg. He fights

607
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: ten field battles and wins six of them. That's not

608
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: a bad record. That makes him above average. And I

609
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: think if this were an if he were a normal

610
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,959
Speaker 1: general in an army, if he had stayed with the Union, right,

611
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: and he had been under a guy like Grant or O. McClellan,

612
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: or if he had just been under somebody else for

613
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: the entire war as the Confederacy, and if he's just

614
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: like a corp commander, he would probably be remembered as like, yeah,

615
00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: he was above average skill. That is not his job, right,

616
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,719
Speaker 1: That's that we're building to that. So Douglas Southall Freeman

617
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: is one of like the premier Lost Cause historians, and

618
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: he writes a biography of Lee in the thirties that

619
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 1: is like kind of the foundational big not the foundational

620
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: because maybe even fitz Hughley's book, but it's one of

621
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: the most influential Lost Cause history techs about Lee. And

622
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: he summarizes Lee's first two years in command this way.

623
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: During the twenty four months when he had been free

624
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: to employee open maneuver, a period that had ended with

625
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: Cold Harbor, he had sustained approximately one hundred and three

626
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: thousand casualties and had inflicted one hundred and forty five

627
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: thousand holding as he usually had to the offensive. His

628
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: combat losses had been greater in proportion to his numbers

629
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: than those of the Federals, but he had demonstrated how

630
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: strategy may increase in opponent's casualties. For his losses included

631
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: only sixteen thousand prisoners, whereas he had taken thirty eight thousand,

632
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: And that sounds really good when you describe it that way.

633
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: But Freeman is kind of pointing out Lee's combat record

634
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: as this ratio of wins and losses, and Freeman is like,

635
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: you can't just look at it that way though, you

636
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: also have to look at what he prevented by being

637
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: in the field, right, So it's not just a matter

638
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: of like he won this many battles, he lost this many,

639
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: but it's like, what wasn't the Union able to do

640
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: because he was taking other actions that they had to

641
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: respond to. This is fair, but it's also not fair

642
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: to judge Lee just based on his field command performance.

643
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 1: After saving Richmond, he becomes basically the Confederate war leader, right,

644
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: He's not on paper you know.

645
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, this kind of solidifies and dignata. Dudes believe in it.

646
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: Yeah he is, though, Yeah, Like you have to view

647
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: because he is effectively the guy orchestrating the Confederate primary

648
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: Confederate war strategy, and he is in command of like

649
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: the center of their army and making decisions about how

650
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: to try and win this thing. You have to analyze

651
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: his level of competence not as what did he win

652
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: and lose in individual battles, but how well did he

653
00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: do actually prosecuting a war. And I think that is

654
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: where the only responsible the only conclusion you can come

655
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: to is he was bad at it. He was a

656
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: bad general because of the job he is taking is

657
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: not just as a field commander. It is the commander

658
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: of Confederate forces trying to orchestrate a victory, which he

659
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: fails at doing.

660
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting going back to your point about like

661
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 3: had he taken the job in the Union army, it

662
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 3: might have played to his strengths more. Yeah, and may

663
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 3: have gone down in history, like you said, in like

664
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 3: a better scenario for himself because it played to his strengths.

665
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 3: It's like you're not asking you to do something you're

666
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 3: not good at.

667
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: His early successes get him promoted. Essentially, he's put in

668
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: a position because he's like the winningest general the South

669
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: has for a while. He's put in a position where

670
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: he's far in excess of his capabilities. If he had

671
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 1: always if he had stayed a core commander and someone

672
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: else was telling him, this is the broad someone like Grant,

673
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: who is good yeah at grand strategy, had been telling him, like,

674
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: you know, I want you to command this the left

675
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: wing of our army in this battle. He would have

676
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: been fine, I think, because he was not incompetent at

677
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. But he regularly needed to be overruled.

678
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: He had terrible instincts about a lot of things. And

679
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: in the book Lee Considered, Alan Nolan makes this eloquent

680
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: assessment about how this fact that like, you can't view

681
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: Lee as a field commander because he was overall the

682
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: guy in strategic command of the Confederacy gets ignored in

683
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 1: analysis of Lee quote his campaigns and battles are typically

684
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 1: considered almost as disembodied, abstract events, unrelated to the necessities

685
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 1: and objectives of the war from the standpoint of the South,

686
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,839
Speaker 1: and without regard to whether they advanced or retarded those

687
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: necessities and objectives. It is as if a surgeon were

688
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: to be judged on the basis of his skillful, dexterous,

689
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: and imaginative procedures, incisions, and sutures without regard to whether

690
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: the operation actually improved the patient's chances for survival.

691
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 3: That's a quote, that's a call quote. Listen, man, this scar,

692
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:03,280
Speaker 3: the scar from my surgery. It's beautiful, curvy, it's so gorgeous.

693
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 3: The heart didn't work, but yeah, but the scar, yeah,

694
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 3: barely see it.

695
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

696
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like wow, look at the quality of these sutures

697
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 1: on my dead cousin.

698
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, telling you man, the heart failed.

699
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 1: Still, But to properly analyze Lee and his level of

700
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,879
Speaker 1: competence and success, we have to accept one thing first off,

701
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: that is going to be hard for some people. The

702
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: Confederacy could have won, right, This is the thing A

703
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: lot of people are.

704
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 2: Like, oh, it was always hopeless.

705
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: Look at how much bigger the industrial base, the population

706
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 1: base of the Union is. I think that's very silly.

707
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: I think that ignores some really crucial facts. And to

708
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: be clear, when I say victory, I'm not talking about

709
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: like some counterfactual where the Confederacy conquers the North. Right, Yeah,

710
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 1: and I'm like that was ever in the cards. Victory

711
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: is a succession. Yeah, yeah, they continue to exist, right,

712
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,399
Speaker 1: the Confederacy continues to exist and the war ins right,

713
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: That's that's what I mean by victory. That was within

714
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: their capabilities. A big problem people make is like they

715
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,919
Speaker 1: get kind of like video game brain about this, where

716
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: they're just sort of like looking at the assets of

717
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: each side and like a ledger and like, well, yeah,

718
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,919
Speaker 1: they never could have won this. The Civil War wasn't

719
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 1: a video game. Public opinion was a huge factor in

720
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 1: how this war was going to go, and in the North,

721
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: public opinion teetered for large pieces of the war. It

722
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: was not impossible that Lee could have done enough damage

723
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 1: to force Lincoln to come to the table because the

724
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 1: people of the Union were not willing to continue fighting. Right,

725
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,720
Speaker 1: that was possible. There were strategies that the Confederacy could

726
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: have taken that might have secured this ending, and Lee

727
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: did not take them. Historian Bell Wiley is one of

728
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 1: the first people to make this case as a ripost

729
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: to the lost Cause narrative, and it's key to the

730
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: lost Cause narrative that you believe they couldn't have won, right,

731
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: It's a noble doom struggle. He did the best anyone

732
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: could have done, but it was unwinnable because that means

733
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: that he couldn't have done better than he did, and

734
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: that is bullshit. That's why you have to repost this.

735
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: And I'm going to quote from Bell Wiley here. The

736
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 1: North unquestionably had an immense superiority of material and human resources,

737
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: but the North also faced a greater task. In order

738
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: to win the war, the North had to subdue a

739
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: vast country of nine million inhabitants, while the South could

740
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 1: prevail by maintaining a successful resistance. To put it another way,

741
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:24,959
Speaker 1: the North had to conquer the South, while the South

742
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: could win by outlasting its adversary. By convincing the North

743
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: that coercion was impossible or not worth the effort, the

744
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 1: South had reason to believe that it could achieve independence.

745
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 1: That it did not was do as much, if not more,

746
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: to its own failings as to the superior strength of

747
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: the foe.

748
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

749
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 3: Again, like I always have to come back to reality,

750
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 3: and like you're still fighting about my people, and I

751
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 3: think that this is where like a lot of my

752
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,959
Speaker 3: history knowledge kind of falls in into like the role

753
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 3: that like black regiments played in making sure that this

754
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 3: ended the way it did. And it's like their own

755
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,879
Speaker 3: ignorance and racism shooting them in the foot, like the

756
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 3: fact that you were so racist and could not even

757
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:16,439
Speaker 3: think of the idea of fighting alongside a person of color, right,

758
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 3: and then the obviousness of African Americans like black people

759
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 3: at the time being like, which one of y'all are

760
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:24,919
Speaker 3: going to set us free?

761
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 2: We'll fight for y'all.

762
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 3: So a union man, I guess I'm a union man,

763
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 3: Like I don't care what the fuck you actually believe.

764
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 3: All I know is I ain't going back to this

765
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 3: goddamn plantation, you know. So if that's the case, then shit,

766
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 3: give me one of them, give me one of them things,

767
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying. And the Union having sense enough,

768
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 3: which I believe again is like all hell, sweet brother

769
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 3: of Frederick Douglass, you know, who was such a huge

770
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 3: influence on Lincoln to get to move Lincoln from like

771
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 3: saving the universe.

772
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,760
Speaker 2: Universe, that's what we think about, right.

773
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 3: Saving the Union to an abolitionist is a lot of

774
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 3: times the effects of Frederick Douglass and then him being

775
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 3: like we're humans too, and we're willing to fight for

776
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 3: our own freedom, like you understand, We willing to die

777
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 3: for this shit too, Like give them some fucking guns, maam. Like,

778
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 3: and that playing such a role in the in the

779
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 3: in the Union's victory being a thing, but also to

780
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 3: your point, could have also swayed the northern public.

781
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 2: Who wasn't any less racist. They just was like, Slavery's

782
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 2: clearly wrong, you know what I'm saying.

783
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:44,919
Speaker 3: So like him enlisting black soldiers could have also played.

784
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 2: Against the Union's winning, is what I'm saying.

785
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it was. Yeah, there were a number of

786
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: ways in which, like it could have been fucked so

787
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: and I think that's that is so important to accept

788
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: it because number one, a lot of people in the Union,

789
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,839
Speaker 1: Lincoln and Grant chief among them, had to make the

790
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: right calls to win, and also Lee had to make

791
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: the wrong calls to lose.

792
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 3: You know.

793
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 1: Yes, Alan Nolan quotes analysis from four different historians who

794
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: carried out an in depth review of Confederate defeats, basically

795
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: analyzing all of the times the Confederacy lost in the field,

796
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: and they concluded, quote, no Confederate army lost a major

797
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 1: engagement because of the lack of arms, munitions, or other

798
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,399
Speaker 1: essential supplies. And this again there's this big argument that like, well,

799
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: they just didn't have they couldn't didn't have the industrial

800
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 1: base necessary to win. The reality is the Confederacy actually

801
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: some of the people in the Confederacy who did their

802
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:41,760
Speaker 1: fucking job were the people who were responsible for creating

803
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 1: an industrial base to sustain the war effort. The Confederacy

804
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: created a very effective industrial base given the poor state,

805
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: not an objective sense, but given how shitty it was

806
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: at the start of the war, Right, they had weapons.

807
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: What they did not have was men, right, And so

808
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 1: when you're in that position, yeah, we've got guns, We've

809
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 1: got enough guns, right for the number of men we've had,

810
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: But we just don't have enough men.

811
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 2: Right.

812
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: That was the thing that the Union had on them.

813
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: And I do know prop we've talked around this, I

814
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: am focusing purely on matters of like strategy of what

815
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,359
Speaker 1: could have happened, rather than the moral dimensions, just because

816
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 1: like that's not a factor and winning or losing right facts,

817
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: I'm just because it's just the only way to like

818
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: kind of analyze this. But the industrial base was sufficient

819
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 1: for the number of men that they had. When you

820
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 1: know then that your primary issue is you don't have

821
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: the man power, right, Yeah, the most sane tactic, if

822
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 1: you want to give yourself the best chance to win,

823
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: is to set up a grinding defense, right, force the

824
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: North to bleed for every square inch of territory it takes.

825
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 1: At this point, weapons have advanced a significant degree. We

826
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: have rifles, right, so not muskets that you can't accurateate

827
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: like you can hit, you can snipe. We have cannon

828
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 1: with like much better shells that are accurate at a

829
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 1: much longer range. The Confederacy could have set up like

830
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 1: we're talking like World War One style like static defenses

831
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 1: and may basically adopt the strategy of if we can

832
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: bleed them white, they will lose public support for the war.

833
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: Lee is not willing to do that. He becomes obsessed

834
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: with the idea that we have to end the war quickly.

835
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 2: Right.

836
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 1: His attitude is and you can see why he feels

837
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 1: this way, that we have to end the war quickly

838
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,919
Speaker 1: because of how much bigger their industrial base is. Hey, everyone,

839
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: Robert here, I wanted to be clear. Lee's not trying

840
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: to like take DC because it's far too fortified for

841
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 1: that to be a realistic possibility, but he's hoping that

842
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: kind of by consistently advancing in that direction, he can

843
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: pull Federal troops from other theaters, which will allow Confederates

844
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: to make gains there, and that if he defeats a

845
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: Union army right at basically the gates of the capital,

846
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 1: that that will have kind of the morale impact on

847
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: the populace that he's looking to have and help force

848
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 1: an end.

849
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:00,479
Speaker 2: To the war.

850
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:05,439
Speaker 1: And defensives always cost more lives than defensive operations. Right,

851
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 1: the attacker should always have numeric superiority because of this. Right,

852
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 1: you can offset this in some ways, right, if you

853
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,760
Speaker 1: can get their firstest with the mostest. Right, it doesn't

854
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 1: matter that your army has less men if you have

855
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,839
Speaker 1: more men at the point where it matters, right, And

856
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:20,919
Speaker 1: that's what Lee is trying to do. But by doing

857
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 1: that he kind of throws away the option of like, well,

858
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: if from the beginning our goal had been to cost

859
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: as many lives of the North as possible, maybe a

860
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 1: year or two of like nightmarish casualties and much less

861
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 1: losses from the Confederacy. Lincoln, Yeah, Lincoln loses that popular

862
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: support you know wow. Now, there is some debate among

863
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: scholars as to whether or not this should be considered

864
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:48,479
Speaker 1: the Confederacy's official grand strategy, because they never lay out

865
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: and say, like Jefferson Davis never says, this is our strategy.

866
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: One school of thought is that the official strategy of

867
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: the Confederacy was a defensive weight out the clock option,

868
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: and Lee was not acting in concert with the overall plan.

869
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: Other historians will argue, well, Lee was obviously the one

870
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 1: orchestrating the Confederacy's grand strategy. One historian notes that his

871
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: basic shortcoming was his failure to map an overall strategy.

872
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: So basically Lee had an overall strategy that we can

873
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: see from his actions he was pursuing, but he never

874
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 1: straight up wrote that out or tried to get the

875
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 1: rest of the state organized around it, which is another

876
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:26,720
Speaker 1: failure as a subarate general.

877
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 3: For sure, you're supposed to get us on board. Yeah,

878
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 3: where we going get us hyped up?

879
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 1: That probably would mean something. You're also like, you're just

880
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 1: going to throw lives at this when that's what we

881
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: have the least of as opposed to trying to maintain

882
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 1: our strength. You know, wow, Lee, Yeah, how are we

883
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 1: supposed to do this.

884
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 2: Yeah.

885
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: Now, a big part of the loss caused lore is

886
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,919
Speaker 1: that the major fuck ups on the Confederate side were

887
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: made by lesser generals around Lee. Right, he was perfect.

888
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 1: It was all of these subordinates who bungled his plans

889
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: and cost of the war, right, you know, that was

890
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 1: the thing he just could. He didn't have enough good men.

891
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 1: Stonewall Jackson was great, but then he gets shot by

892
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 1: his own guys, and you know, Alan Nolan points out

893
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:14,240
Speaker 1: that this ignores a lot of Lee's agency. Quote Connolly

894
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: and Jones, who are two other historians, correctly state that

895
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 1: although President Davis asserted unity of control over the Confederate

896
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 1: war effort, there was a large measure of autonomy for

897
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 1: department commanders. The notion that Lee had little power they

898
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 1: describe as one of the great myths of the Civil War.

899
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 1: In point of fact, it was Lee, not Davis, who

900
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 1: proposed and initiated the movements of Lee's army, movements that

901
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: brought on its battles, including the Maryland Campaign in Gettysburg,

902
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 1: and he had complete tactical control of that army. So again,

903
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: part of this is a failure of like Davis is

904
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 1: not exercising the control he technically should be exercising in

905
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 1: order to like actually have a cohesive war plan. But Lee,

906
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: having this big army that is effectively the center of

907
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,879
Speaker 1: the effort, is exercising grand strategy, but is not act

908
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: like informing anybody. And because he is in such control,

909
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 1: you have to look at how well he did, and

910
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: you have to see his failures as his not as

911
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: failures of the broader system or of his subordinates. So

912
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 1: both ways, dude, Yeah, you can't have it both ways.

913
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,720
Speaker 1: And we're going to talk about Gettysburg and Lee's biggest

914
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 1: failure in tactical control of an army. But first here's

915
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 1: some ads.

916
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 2: All right.

917
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: So the definition Alan Nolan uses of grand strategy is

918
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 1: the use of engagements to attain the objects of war.

919
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: And he cites this piece of writing by Lee as

920
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: the closest Lee came to citing an overall strategic vision.

921
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 1: If we can defeat or drive the armies of the

922
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: enemy from the field, we shall have peace. All our

923
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: efforts and energy should be devoted to that object. And

924
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: that is a failure. That's a fuck up, because that

925
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 1: is not how you win. As the Confederacy, you don't

926
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 1: win by so vague. It's really vague. One thing, it's like, yeah,

927
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:03,839
Speaker 1: you win by beating the enemy.

928
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 3: Yes, as you know, didn't say I played basketball. This

929
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,839
Speaker 3: is our game. We just gonna score more points than them.

930
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 1: What this shows Lee doesn't understand modern war. One of

931
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 1: the reasons I think Grant is objectively a better general.

932
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: Grant understands modern war. He knows what war is going

933
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 1: to Grant is one of the people who first sees

934
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: what war is going to be like in the twenty

935
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 1: first century, and he carries out a strategy based on that.

936
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:28,839
Speaker 1: Lee is still stuck in this will you win war

937
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 1: by driving your enemy's armies from the field, And like,

938
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 1: how did Vietnam beat the US? Did they did they

939
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,439
Speaker 1: smash our armies? No, we won every single pretty much

940
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 1: every single field engagement.

941
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 2: Every thought on that one. Yeah, And it.

942
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 1: Doesn't matter because you can win. Battles are not what

943
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: wins wars. Strategy is what wins wars. Right, You can

944
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: win a war losing every battle if you exact enough

945
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: of a toll from the enemy that they stop being

946
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: willing to fight you, right, And Lee doesn't understand that,

947
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: and that is a failure. You know. His attempts to

948
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: achieve this plan start with the Chancellorsville campaign, which he

949
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 1: wins despite being out numbered and attacking an entrenched enemy.

950
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 1: Lee defenders will cite this long odds win as proof

951
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 1: of his genius. And this is a I think, a

952
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 1: competently carried out battle, but if you view it within

953
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 1: the overall strategy the Confederacy had to use in order

954
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:20,879
Speaker 1: to win, this is a fuck up.

955
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 2: Right.

956
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 1: Lee describes it as a triumph most honorable to our arms,

957
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 1: but it costs him twenty one percent of his army,

958
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 1: which is a higher percentage. Again, people point out, like, well,

959
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: he killed more. You know, he was outnumbered and he

960
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: still killed more of them they killed of him, And

961
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, but the Union lost a lower percentage of.

962
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 2: You understand numbers.

963
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 1: Vellas's that's what the Confederates. That the Confederacy can jink

964
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 1: around and move and capture material to make up some

965
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 1: of that manufacturing capacity, they cannot make up the lack

966
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 1: of men. And that's what he's throwing away. Despite losing

967
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 1: this hideous chunk of his army, he carries on the offensive,

968
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,399
Speaker 1: harassing needs retreating army. Just to be clear here, meat

969
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 1: is not in command at Chancellorsville. He's like one of

970
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: the Union generals who is leading a chunk of the army.

971
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: He is going to be in command at Gettysburg. And

972
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 1: the rest of the stuff about Lee harrying him and

973
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 1: harassing his retreating troops is accurate. I just kind of

974
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,359
Speaker 1: didn't say clearly what was going on here. Mead, who

975
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:22,760
Speaker 1: has lost this battle, doesn't like give up or panic

976
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: or he shows his medal here. Right, Lee reforms his army,

977
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 1: and Lee tries to go Mead into attacking He basically

978
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:34,720
Speaker 1: like once Mead reforms, Lee tries to entrench his forces

979
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 1: in the hope that Mead will attack him and he

980
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: can bleed them white. Right by having his guys on

981
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 1: the defensive, he can, And Mead doesn't take the bait.

982
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 1: He refuses to be tricked by Lee, and so the

983
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 1: Army of the Potomac and the Army of Northern Virginia

984
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 1: jockey about for a while trying to get into better position.

985
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 1: Lee really wants to be on the defensive because then

986
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: he'll lose fewer men, But eventually he has to contend that,

987
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 1: like Mead is not an idiot, Meads not going to

988
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 1: let him do that, and so in July of eighteen

989
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 1: sixty three, Robert E. Lee decides to execute an attack

990
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: on beads entrenched forces at Gettysburg. Now, before this fateful battle,

991
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 1: we know that Lee was writing to Davis about how

992
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 1: bad the manpower crunch was and about how it harmed

993
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 1: Confederate chances. His gamble at Gettysburg was that if he

994
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 1: could destroy the Army of the Potomac, it would shatter

995
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,839
Speaker 1: the Union's will to fight. Right, We'll never know if

996
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: that would have been the case. The Union could have

997
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 1: rebuilt another army, could have like, you know, done that thing.

998
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: But also there's a decent chance that if the Army

999
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 1: of the Potomac has wiped it out, yeah, people might

1000
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 1: like that might end the Union's willingness to actually keep

1001
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: prosecuting the war. Not impossible, right, it's almost DC Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1002
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 1: you're close.

1003
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1004
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: So Gettysburg takes place July first through the third, eighteen

1005
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,760
Speaker 1: sixty three, and this is the battle that ultimately decides

1006
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,239
Speaker 1: the Confederacy's fate. This is the high water mark for

1007
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 1: the Confederacy. This is what destroys Robert E. Lee's shot

1008
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 1: at being George Way Washington right. Yeah, Now, the battle

1009
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,800
Speaker 1: starts with a huge Confederate fuck up j E. B. Stewart,

1010
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:09,360
Speaker 1: I like calling him Jeb. His scouting failed to identify

1011
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:12,800
Speaker 1: Mead's proper position, and the Army of Potomac actually gets

1012
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 1: behind Lee between him and his supply lines. That is

1013
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:20,240
Speaker 1: Lee being out general by Mead. Like these are wars

1014
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: of maneuver, right, that's part of what determined skill. Mead

1015
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 1: cuts off his supply line, and the fact that Lee

1016
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 1: lets himself get in this position represents a strategic failure,

1017
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 1: you know, that is him being out general. Still, when

1018
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 1: he attacks on July first, he nearly routes meads vanguard.

1019
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 1: The Union position is only saved from like losing access

1020
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 1: to the high ground because of a major general named O. O. Howard,

1021
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 1: who had been one of Lee's students at West Point.

1022
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:46,800
Speaker 2: Oh.

1023
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 1: Howard had actually been kind of the nerdy kid at

1024
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: school and Lee had like defended him from bullies, which

1025
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,319
Speaker 1: is an interesting like beside bit that like this guy

1026
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 1: winds up thwarting his aims and thanks to Howard, the

1027
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: Union is able to save their position and did on

1028
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 1: the high ground. Now, so because this vanguard doesn't get

1029
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,359
Speaker 1: completely routed basically meads army is stationed on a bunch

1030
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 1: of hills, set up dug in with guns and artillery.

1031
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 1: This is a bad situation to attack. You do not

1032
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 1: want to attack an enemy that has the high ground.

1033
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 1: I don't think I need to explain why, but like

1034
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 1: it's it's a it's like the worst thing you can

1035
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 1: do in a war like this. Yeah, have you been

1036
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 1: there Gettysburg?

1037
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1038
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, getting the getting a feel of the land,

1039
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 3: like and like you said, like the idea of like

1040
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 3: the high ground and just pitch if you could picture it.

1041
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 3: You're just like, yeah, bro, it's a bad move, homie, Like, yeah,

1042
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 3: like you're you.

1043
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 1: If you're confused about it, like even taking not taking

1044
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: into account that while you are advancing towards the high

1045
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 1: ground you're getting shot the whole time. Yeah, I want

1046
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 1: you to put on like forty to fifty pounds of

1047
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 1: gear and a rifle and run up a hill and

1048
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:00,080
Speaker 1: then think about trying to stab a man to death

1049
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 1: immediately afterwards.

1050
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:04,319
Speaker 3: First of all, at number one and number two, who's

1051
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 3: watching you run up?

1052
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, who's watching you run up? And who is not

1053
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 1: out of breath?

1054
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 2: Yeah? Who's sitting there?

1055
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 3: It's just like, hey, hey, hey, come you already, Yeah,

1056
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 3: let me finish the cigar first.

1057
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and keep in mind like ifeah, maybe you know,

1058
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: if you're in great shape, sure you can do that, right,

1059
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: modern people, modern nutrition, modern like you can train for

1060
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 1: a situation like that. These guys all have fucking rickets.

1061
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 1: They're all sick of shit. You know, they've been marching

1062
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 1: in the field like they're not at their best health

1063
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,720
Speaker 1: wise anyway. You know, like it's such a bad idea.

1064
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:37,879
Speaker 1: Despite this being a terrible position to attack from, Lee

1065
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 1: felt like he had the numbers right right now, because

1066
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:43,359
Speaker 1: you know, Mead's whole army isn't you know that these

1067
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:45,320
Speaker 1: armies are maneuver and getting in the position and stuff.

1068
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,319
Speaker 1: Lee's got. Feels like I've got more men at the

1069
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 1: critical point right now than Mead does. If I don't

1070
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 1: attack now, I'm going to lose that advantage, and so

1071
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 1: he orders the attack now. One of his core commanders,

1072
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 1: James Longstreet, is like, this is a bad idea, Please

1073
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,319
Speaker 1: don't order the attack, and Lee responds to him, the

1074
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 1: enemy is there, and I am going to attack him there.

1075
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 1: This would prove to be a terrible mistake, as this

1076
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 1: article for Smithsonian Magazine makes clear Lee didn't know that

1077
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: in the night, Mead had managed by forced marches to

1078
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 1: concentrate nearly his entire army at Lee's front, and had

1079
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 1: deployed it skillfully. His left flank was now extended to

1080
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 1: Little Round Top, nearly three quarters of a mile south

1081
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: of where Lee thought it was. The disgruntled long Street

1082
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:29,759
Speaker 1: never won to rush into anything, and confuse to find

1083
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:32,720
Speaker 1: the left flank further than expected, didn't begin his assault

1084
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 1: until three point thirty that afternoon. It nearly prevailed anyway,

1085
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 1: but at last was beaten gorrily back. Although the two

1086
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:42,239
Speaker 1: pronged offensive was ill coordinated and the Federal artillery had

1087
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:45,280
Speaker 1: knocked out the Confederate guns to the north before Ewell attack.

1088
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 1: Ewele's infantry came tantalizingly close to taking Cemetery Hill, but

1089
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 1: a counter attack forced them to retreat. On the third morning,

1090
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 1: July third, Lee's plan was roughly the same, but Meade

1091
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 1: seized the initiative by pushing forward on his right and

1092
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 1: seizing Colp's Hill, which the Confederates held, so Lee was

1093
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 1: forced to improvise. He decided to strike straight ahead and

1094
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:08,839
Speaker 1: meets heavily fortified mid section, Confederate artillery would soften it up,

1095
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 1: and Longstreet would direct a frontal assault across a mile

1096
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 1: of open ground against the center of Missionary Ridge. Again

1097
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 1: Longstreet objected. Again, Lee wouldn't listen. The Confederate artillery exhausted

1098
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 1: all its shells ineffectively, so was unable to support the assault.

1099
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,760
Speaker 1: Which has gone down in history is Pickett's charge because

1100
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,799
Speaker 1: Major General George Pickett's division absorbed the worst of the

1101
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 1: horrible bloodbath that turned into and this is that's a

1102
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 1: series of fuck ups, right. That is Lee being out generaled,

1103
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:41,760
Speaker 1: being beaten fair and square. It's not that they don't

1104
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 1: have the material. It's not that they don't eat at

1105
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,239
Speaker 1: this point like they used the men, but like they

1106
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: make a series of bad calls. Pickett's charge bleeds the

1107
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 1: confederacy of the skilled troops that it needed to have

1108
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:57,879
Speaker 1: any chance of victory. Gettysburg on the whole is kind

1109
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: of like what kills any hope they might have had

1110
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 1: it When.

1111
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 3: You yeah, when you okay, this is a I mean

1112
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 3: this this comparisons on the struggle bus, for sure. But

1113
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 3: when you are like you're outflanked, you're outnumbered, and you're

1114
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 3: about to get jumped like the everyone knows, don't let

1115
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 3: nobody get behind you. Like, if somebody gets behind you.

1116
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 2: You're done.

1117
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying, Like, get yourself to a

1118
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 3: position to where you can see everyone, right, get as

1119
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 3: many blows as you can get in, and then get

1120
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:38,720
Speaker 3: out of there, because you can't. It's out of your control.

1121
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:40,839
Speaker 3: But for you to think that you're some sort of

1122
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 3: like movie character and you're gonna karate chop all these

1123
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 3: guys is just absurd.

1124
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,760
Speaker 2: That's not real. You can't. You watch too many movies,

1125
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:50,880
Speaker 2: like it's not true.

1126
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 3: So so if you're in a position where Yo homie

1127
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:58,800
Speaker 3: is telling you, hey, hey, cut eight, they done already

1128
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 3: spun the block on you. They around the back, bro

1129
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 3: like they're coming down the alley Like you what he

1130
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:07,919
Speaker 3: gets out of here? Fucking run Yeah, get the fuck out,

1131
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 3: DoD Like you can't take this.

1132
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 2: No, man, they gonna feel this. They gonna have to

1133
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 2: see me. I'm like, okay, you.

1134
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 3: Know what I'm saying, Like you about to get your

1135
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 3: ass kicked, like you cannot.

1136
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 2: They've gotten behind you.

1137
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 3: If they got behind you, got side, you ain't got

1138
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 3: the two arms, Like this is not No, he gonna

1139
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 3: leave lumped up. Okay, all right you yeah, yes, you

1140
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 3: lumped up the guy in the middle. Okay, you feel

1141
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 3: better now, yeah, now go home. Lee lumps up Mead.

1142
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 1: But like he loses a third of his army in

1143
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 1: this battle, right yeah, and this is the Confederacy never

1144
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 1: again remain regains momentum or the ability to mount a

1145
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 1: serious offensive because he does this reckless attack. He bleeds

1146
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 1: his army to the point where like it's never going

1147
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 1: to be as effective again, and that hobbles the whole

1148
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 1: Confederate effort as opposed to, like what he should have

1149
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 1: been doing the whole time was doing what Mead did

1150
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 1: most days at Gettysburg, just finding good defensible positions and

1151
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 1: shoot the fuck out of them, you know, just fall

1152
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 1: back and wait. Yeah, yeah, he doesn't. He chooses not

1153
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: to do that.

1154
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 3: Steven Seagal like I'm gonna go Chuck Norris this thing, man,

1155
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 3: I'm going like nah, man, Like yeah, album, I'm not

1156
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 3: even yeah.

1157
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot more battles that, like, maybe it's

1158
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 1: unfair of me that I'm not talking about some of

1159
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 1: the genius moves that he makes. Is he There's some

1160
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:30,479
Speaker 1: things he's very good at when it comes to being

1161
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 1: a field commander. There's some things his army is very

1162
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 1: good at, but it doesn't matter because his job is

1163
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 1: not to be great at those little things. His job

1164
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 1: is to win the war. I don't care, doesn't I

1165
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 1: don't look. Look, look, look, Sophie.

1166
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 2: I don't care.

1167
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 3: How many triple doubles you got? Where's the banner?

1168
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 2: Yeah? Literally literally, where's the banner? Like you know what

1169
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 2: I'm saying. So I'm like, if you ain't got no rings?

1170
00:58:57,040 --> 00:59:00,120
Speaker 3: Okare how many points you scored today?

1171
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 2: That's the facts. Yeah.

1172
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 1: And there's two things. First off, while he has some

1173
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:08,160
Speaker 1: competences as a field commander in tactical matters, he's not

1174
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 1: as good as people say. Mead comprehensively outmaneuvers him, not

1175
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:15,800
Speaker 1: even talking strategy. Mead beats him in generalship. But also,

1176
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:19,919
Speaker 1: like Grant, he never I'm always frustrated, like how little

1177
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 1: credit Grant gets. He was described to me as like

1178
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:25,440
Speaker 1: he's just he was just a butcher. He won because

1179
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 1: he was just willing to blindly throw troops into a

1180
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: meat grinder. First off, Grant has his excellent campaigns that

1181
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 1: you can read. He's not perfect. He makes his share

1182
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 1: of mistakes, but he gets a chance to show his

1183
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 1: quality in tactical matters, and he is not. He has

1184
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 1: some very good skill there. But Grant understands what modern

1185
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:44,880
Speaker 1: war wins.

1186
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 2: His strategy.

1187
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 1: This both his willingness to like, all right, well there

1188
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 1: are sometimes where we just need to throw men at guns,

1189
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 1: but also this strategy of like we are going to

1190
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:57,640
Speaker 1: Grant understands what total war is going to mean and

1191
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 1: that this is the future of industrialized conf and like, well,

1192
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:04,400
Speaker 1: what we're going to do is destroy their industrial base

1193
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 1: and their agricultural base. We are going to burn the

1194
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:12,440
Speaker 1: country out from under them. That is strategic thinking. That

1195
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 1: is Grant knowing what war he's fighting, and Lee never

1196
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 1: fucking does.

1197
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, Grant, it's always it's it's it always like works

1198
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 3: against you when you have when you're playing from a

1199
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 3: position of you feel you have something to prove because

1200
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:32,440
Speaker 3: I'm being careful with how I say this, but like

1201
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 3: it's because you actually don't have any self confidence. Yeah, Like,

1202
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:38,760
Speaker 3: so you're actually really trying to prove it to your

1203
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 3: your own self worth, and when you play from that,

1204
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:44,560
Speaker 3: you're not stable, like and and if you already like

1205
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 3: and it clearly he knows his cause isn't just so

1206
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 3: there's like there's you're gonna make dumb ass mistakes because

1207
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 3: you you're not right in ahead. So I feel like,

1208
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 3: you know, you take somebody like you lissens as Grant

1209
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 3: who obviously like I ain't got no ulysses posters on

1210
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 3: my wall like this niggame my hero. But I will

1211
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 3: say he could fall back and say, well, let me

1212
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:09,520
Speaker 3: think about this for a little bit, Like I have

1213
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 3: time to think this too, because I know who I am.

1214
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:14,520
Speaker 3: I understand my position. I don't give a funk a

1215
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:18,040
Speaker 3: by child's glory like week in a Witness.

1216
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, Grant is never fighting the war to like make

1217
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:25,919
Speaker 1: a name for himself. Yeah, grand Daddy issues it. Yeah Yeah,

1218
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 1: Grant just understands what needs to be.

1219
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:30,840
Speaker 2: Done, does it. Yeah.

1220
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 1: Lee's defenders are down so bad when it comes to

1221
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 1: explaining the disaster that was Gettysburg that rather than like

1222
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:41,520
Speaker 1: analyzing that because it's just bad for them, they have

1223
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 1: to focus on how stoic and eloquent Robert E. Lee

1224
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:46,959
Speaker 1: was in defeat, which is one of my favorite.

1225
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:47,200
Speaker 2: Bits of cope.

1226
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to quote from Smithsonian Magazine here, as the

1227
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 1: minority who hadn't been cut to ribbons. Streamed back to

1228
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 1: the Confederate lines, Lee rode in splendid calm among them, apologizing,

1229
01:01:57,280 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 1: it's all my fault, he assured stunned privates and core.

1230
01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 1: He took time to admonish mildly an officer who was

1231
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:06,400
Speaker 1: beating his horse. Don't whip him, Captain, it does no good.

1232
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:09,320
Speaker 1: I had a foolish horse once, and kind treatment is

1233
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:12,439
Speaker 1: the best. Then he resumed his apologies. I am very

1234
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 1: sorry the task was too great for you, but we

1235
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:18,880
Speaker 1: mustn't despond. Shelby Foote has called this Lee's finest moment,

1236
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:21,880
Speaker 1: but generals don't want apologies from those beneath them, and

1237
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:25,320
Speaker 1: that goes both ways. After midnight, he told a cavalry officer,

1238
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:29,040
Speaker 1: I never saw troops behave more magnificently than Pickett's division

1239
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 1: of Virginians. Then he fell silent, and it was then

1240
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 1: that he exclaimed, as the officer wrote it down, too bad,

1241
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:40,120
Speaker 1: too bad, oh, too bad, Like that is so lame,

1242
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:44,040
Speaker 1: just like at first this like, oh you know, it's

1243
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:46,640
Speaker 1: my fault is and it is his fault. But liked

1244
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:50,680
Speaker 1: the fact that the fact that like his defenders take

1245
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 1: this like this was his finest moment, Well, you have

1246
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 1: to view it as his finest moment because he didn't

1247
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 1: fucking win. Yeah right, He's just so magnanimous in defeat.

1248
01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:03,960
Speaker 1: He got tens of thousands of men killed pointlessly. Why

1249
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 1: is the fact that he was humble pretended to be

1250
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:07,840
Speaker 1: humble about it good?

1251
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:09,600
Speaker 2: I don't get it, dude.

1252
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 3: Like, of all the things they could have told themselves,

1253
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:15,440
Speaker 3: like the effort you had to go through to create

1254
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,080
Speaker 3: the lost cause, which of course grew over time, but

1255
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:20,800
Speaker 3: I'm like it seemed to be more simple, eloquent for

1256
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:23,800
Speaker 3: him to just be like, ah, man, general Lee dog,

1257
01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 3: he didn't know what the fuck he was doing. That's

1258
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:27,240
Speaker 3: why we lost. Yeah, Like you could have just said that,

1259
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:30,440
Speaker 3: and like that might have Actually, then you wouldn't have

1260
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 3: to like make up some other fantasy stuff.

1261
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 2: You could just be like, oh, man, he ain't know

1262
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 2: what he was doing. Like you could have just said that. Yeah.

1263
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 1: Sure, Jim put his hand into the disposal and turned

1264
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 1: on the blades and it cut his entire hand to ribbons,

1265
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:46,800
Speaker 1: and that was really dumb. But he had such a

1266
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 1: stoic look on his face the whole time. You know,

1267
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:52,919
Speaker 1: I really respect the way he ground his hand into

1268
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 1: hamburger meat so absurd now that article gives us a

1269
01:03:56,760 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 1: more comical look at Lee than guy's like foot tended

1270
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:01,880
Speaker 1: to want to accept quote. For months, Lee had been

1271
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 1: traveling with a pet hen meant for the stewpot. She

1272
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 1: had won his heart by entering his tent first thing

1273
01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:10,120
Speaker 1: every morning and laying his breakfast egg under his spartan cot.

1274
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:12,800
Speaker 1: As an army of Northern Virginia was breaking camp and

1275
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:15,919
Speaker 1: all deliberate speed for the withdrawal, Lee's staff ran around

1276
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:19,600
Speaker 1: anxiously crying where is the hen. Lee himself found her

1277
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:22,360
Speaker 1: nestled in her accustomed spot on the wagon that transported

1278
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 1: his personal materiel, worried about his fucking hen. You've just

1279
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:29,320
Speaker 1: gotten like fucking tens of thousands of men killed and maimed,

1280
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:32,360
Speaker 1: and your stupid fuck up worried about your goddamn hen.

1281
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:33,720
Speaker 2: You lose your guy?

1282
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is he's such a loser. This your man

1283
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:39,440
Speaker 4: like es y'all dude, this is y'all's due. Yeah, okay,

1284
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:42,000
Speaker 4: this is your boy. Huh yeah, words out got you.

1285
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:45,520
Speaker 4: In the end, Lee failed. After almost two years of

1286
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 4: feudal slaughter, he finally found himself checkmated by Grant. His

1287
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:53,680
Speaker 4: fighting retreat started with sixty four thousand men. By April ninth,

1288
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:56,600
Speaker 4: eighteen sixty five, he had less than ten thousand defectives

1289
01:04:56,600 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 4: in the Army of Northern Virginia. His casualty this like

1290
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:03,560
Speaker 4: I think sixty four thousand casually something like that, cost

1291
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:07,040
Speaker 4: the Union sixty three thousand men. This is a ratio

1292
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 4: that technically favors him, but not to a degree that

1293
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:14,400
Speaker 4: is impressive or noteworthy. The so called greatest American field

1294
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:17,680
Speaker 4: commander of the nineteenth century, as Lost Cause histories claim,

1295
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:20,640
Speaker 4: was defeated in the field by both Lee and Grant.

1296
01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 4: Now there were some in Lee's command who had advocated

1297
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 4: that he take his army into a guerrilla struggle. Lee

1298
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 4: rejected this, telling his artillery commander the men would become

1299
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 4: mere bands of marauders, and the enemy's cavalry would pursue

1300
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 4: them and overrun many wide sections they may never have

1301
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 4: occasion to visit. We would bring on a state of

1302
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 4: affairs it would take the country years to recover from.

1303
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:43,240
Speaker 4: And as for myself, you young fellows might go bushwhacking,

1304
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 4: but the only dignified course for me would be to

1305
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:49,040
Speaker 4: go to General Grant and surrender myself and take the consequences.

1306
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:51,680
Speaker 4: And this is the first time he makes a good

1307
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:55,520
Speaker 4: call in this war where he's like, it's done. It

1308
01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:57,880
Speaker 4: took him way too long, but he does.

1309
01:05:58,240 --> 01:05:59,479
Speaker 2: So it is a long time ago.

1310
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 1: But yeah, all right, man, Yeah. So, contrary to the

1311
01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:09,720
Speaker 1: opinions of Wiserman, Lincoln's successors opted for a conciliatory response

1312
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:13,280
Speaker 1: to the traders who survived. Lee, along with Jefferson Davis

1313
01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:16,919
Speaker 1: and other major Confederate officers, was subject to some restrictions

1314
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 1: after the war, but these are all eventually lifted. The

1315
01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:23,480
Speaker 1: primary long term consequence for Roberty Lee of losing is

1316
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:27,040
Speaker 1: that he and Mary never get Arlington back, and this

1317
01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:29,480
Speaker 1: brings us to one of the more amusing parts of

1318
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:33,560
Speaker 1: the Roberty Lee saga. Once Mary had forfeited the property

1319
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:36,040
Speaker 1: for failing to pay her taxes, it went up for auction.

1320
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:39,600
Speaker 1: The US government was the Adam Sandler in this incident.

1321
01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:42,280
Speaker 1: To return to our happy Gilmour comparison, yes, and makes

1322
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:45,400
Speaker 1: the only bid. They get a good deal, about twenty

1323
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:48,920
Speaker 1: five percent under the assessed value of the property. Arlington

1324
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:51,640
Speaker 1: is first used as a cemetery two years after the

1325
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 1: US buys it, when Quartermaster of the Army. Montgomery Meeks

1326
01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:59,400
Speaker 1: turns to it in desperation from the Smithsonian Magazine. The

1327
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:02,200
Speaker 1: first soldier laid to rest there was Private William Christman,

1328
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:05,040
Speaker 1: twenty one, of the sixty seventh Pennsylvania Infantry. He was

1329
01:07:05,080 --> 01:07:09,520
Speaker 1: buried in a plot on Arlington's northeast corner on May thirteenth,

1330
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:12,600
Speaker 1: eighteen sixty four. A farmer newly recruited into the army,

1331
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:15,320
Speaker 1: Christman never knew a day of combat. Like many others

1332
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 1: who would join him in Arlington, he was felled by disease.

1333
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:22,360
Speaker 1: He died of peritontitis in Washington's Lincoln's General Hospital on

1334
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:25,960
Speaker 1: May eleventh. His burial was soon followed by other soldiers

1335
01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 1: men who were quote too poor to be embalmed and

1336
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:29,480
Speaker 1: sent for burial.

1337
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:30,440
Speaker 2: Wow.

1338
01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:32,880
Speaker 1: It is perhaps fitting then that one of the first

1339
01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:36,120
Speaker 1: jerky steps this country took towards a quality happened when

1340
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:39,960
Speaker 1: poor free white men were buried across the field from

1341
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:42,640
Speaker 1: a graveyard for slaves and freedmen of the Leaf and

1342
01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 1: Custis families. Right, this is one of the first things

1343
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:49,120
Speaker 1: that happens with Arlington is you have poor white men

1344
01:07:49,560 --> 01:07:51,440
Speaker 1: buried in the same place, in.

1345
01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:54,720
Speaker 2: A place, Yeah, got a start somewhere.

1346
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah. The need for burial space only increased

1347
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:01,520
Speaker 1: as the summer of eighteen sixty, war On and Meeks

1348
01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:05,080
Speaker 1: recommended that the land around Arlington Mansion be turned into

1349
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:08,640
Speaker 1: a national cemetery. A separate chunk of the property was

1350
01:08:08,680 --> 01:08:12,120
Speaker 1: turned into a village for newly freed former slaves. So

1351
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:14,800
Speaker 1: like there's like a little town there for people who

1352
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:18,439
Speaker 1: have just gotten freed on the former custus property. And

1353
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:22,040
Speaker 1: this is done out of spite. Yeah, it's totally done. Yeah.

1354
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 1: Meegs is not just doing this because it's necessary. He's

1355
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:30,080
Speaker 1: doing this because fuck Robert E. Lee. Yeah, exactly. Quote

1356
01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:33,679
Speaker 1: Meeg's evicted officers from the mansion, installed a military chaplain

1357
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:36,879
Speaker 1: and a loyal lieutenant to oversee cemetary operations, and proceeded

1358
01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:40,640
Speaker 1: with new burials encircling Missus Lee's garden with the tombstones

1359
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:43,679
Speaker 1: of prominent Union officers. The first of these was Captain

1360
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:46,679
Speaker 1: Albert H. Packard of the thirty first Main Infantry, shot

1361
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:48,680
Speaker 1: in the head during the Battle of the Second Wilderness.

1362
01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:50,839
Speaker 1: He was laid to rest where Mary Lee had enjoyed

1363
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:53,880
Speaker 1: reading in warm weather, surrounded by the scent of honeysuckle

1364
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:56,360
Speaker 1: and jasmine. By the end of eighteen sixty four, some

1365
01:08:56,400 --> 01:09:00,080
Speaker 1: forty officers graves had joined his and in short order

1366
01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:03,640
Speaker 1: Meigs adds the remains of more than two thousand unknown soldiers,

1367
01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:06,280
Speaker 1: many of them knew immigrants, whose first act, after a

1368
01:09:06,360 --> 01:09:09,400
Speaker 1: arriving to this nation in total poverty, was to fight

1369
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:12,120
Speaker 1: and die in the cause of liberty. These men were

1370
01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:14,840
Speaker 1: buried in Mary Lee's former garden as well, which is

1371
01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:17,360
Speaker 1: you know, a purposeful.

1372
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:21,680
Speaker 3: Move yeah, yeah, a symbol for for yeah generations to

1373
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:22,719
Speaker 3: come yep.

1374
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:26,320
Speaker 1: By October of eighteen sixty four, the war had claimed

1375
01:09:26,360 --> 01:09:29,000
Speaker 1: Meegs's son as well. He was shot while scouting in

1376
01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:31,959
Speaker 1: the Shenandoah, and while he was not buried in Arlington,

1377
01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:35,879
Speaker 1: his loss deepened Meegs's commitment that Arlington should never return

1378
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:38,960
Speaker 1: to the Lee's possession. When Roberty Lee is surrendered on

1379
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:42,799
Speaker 1: April ninth, eighteen sixty five, Meegs wrote this, the rebels

1380
01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:44,960
Speaker 1: are all murderers of my son and the sons of

1381
01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:48,599
Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands. Justice seems not satisfied if they escaped

1382
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:51,559
Speaker 1: judicial trial and execution by the government which they have

1383
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:54,760
Speaker 1: betrayed and attacked, and those people loyal and disloyal that

1384
01:09:54,800 --> 01:09:58,160
Speaker 1: they have slaughtered, and I agree with them. We should

1385
01:09:58,160 --> 01:09:59,920
Speaker 1: have killed all these guys. Yeah, we should have exec

1386
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:02,200
Speaker 1: acted Lee. We should have executed Davis. It was the

1387
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:04,160
Speaker 1: only ethical thing to do. We didn't do it, and

1388
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:08,000
Speaker 1: that's a lingering mistake. It remains a mistake to this day.

1389
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:12,800
Speaker 1: That said, Meegus in his actions ensures some sort of

1390
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:16,599
Speaker 1: vengeance to Roberty Lee. Not enough, but it's something. Lee

1391
01:10:16,720 --> 01:10:19,280
Speaker 1: lives another five years after the Civil War, and he

1392
01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:22,960
Speaker 1: is unfortunately widely respected both as a symbol of white

1393
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:26,519
Speaker 1: supremacist rebellion and as a symbol of the attempt at

1394
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:30,679
Speaker 1: unity after the Civil War. That said, he never sees

1395
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:35,240
Speaker 1: Arlington again lost cause. Historians paint this last chapter of

1396
01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:38,040
Speaker 1: his life as a crucial period for the United States.

1397
01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:41,960
Speaker 1: As biographer Douglas Freeman claimed, Lee the Warrior became Lee

1398
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:45,479
Speaker 1: the Conciliator within less than five months from appomatics, he

1399
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:48,719
Speaker 1: was telling Southern men to abandon all opposition, to regard

1400
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:51,160
Speaker 1: the United States as their country, and to labor for

1401
01:10:51,200 --> 01:10:54,439
Speaker 1: harmony and better understanding. Seldom had a famous man so

1402
01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:57,519
Speaker 1: completely reversed himself in so brief that time, and never

1403
01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:02,320
Speaker 1: more sincerely, And it's true true that Lee regularly expressed

1404
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:07,160
Speaker 1: advocacy for reunification. His last job was as president of

1405
01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:10,559
Speaker 1: Washington College, and we can view this as his consolation prize.

1406
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:12,680
Speaker 1: He doesn't get to be the George Washington of a

1407
01:11:12,720 --> 01:11:15,080
Speaker 1: new country, but he gets to run a college named

1408
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:20,599
Speaker 1: after him. Yeah. In a letter accepting the job, he stated,

1409
01:11:20,720 --> 01:11:22,559
Speaker 1: I think it is the duty of every citizen, in

1410
01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:24,720
Speaker 1: the present condition of the country to do all of

1411
01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:27,479
Speaker 1: his power to aid in the restoration of peace and harmony,

1412
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:29,559
Speaker 1: and in no way oppose the policy of the state

1413
01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:33,200
Speaker 1: or general governments directed to that object. It is particularly

1414
01:11:33,200 --> 01:11:35,760
Speaker 1: incumbent on those charged with the instruction of the young

1415
01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:41,800
Speaker 1: to set them an example of submission to authority. Interesting,

1416
01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 1: I'm like.

1417
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 3: You had a chance, you could have This could have

1418
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:48,960
Speaker 3: gone so different.

1419
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:52,640
Speaker 1: And it is also not accurate to say that he

1420
01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:57,040
Speaker 1: was this this configure of conciliation as we're building towards right.

1421
01:11:57,280 --> 01:11:58,000
Speaker 2: He was not.

1422
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:01,680
Speaker 1: We have to see that statement he just made in context.

1423
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:05,240
Speaker 1: Reconstruction had just begun and it faced tremendous and often

1424
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:09,640
Speaker 1: violent resistance. Lee did on paper, in some of his

1425
01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:14,200
Speaker 1: public statements, seemed to oppose insurgent attempts to fight reconstruction,

1426
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:17,439
Speaker 1: but his heart had not changed, and in private he

1427
01:12:17,479 --> 01:12:21,400
Speaker 1: complained to his friend and fellow General EGW. Butler, we

1428
01:12:21,439 --> 01:12:24,920
Speaker 1: are obliged to confess that, notwithstanding our boastful assertions to

1429
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:27,479
Speaker 1: the world for nearly a century, that our government was

1430
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:29,840
Speaker 1: based on the consent of the people, which we claimed

1431
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:32,759
Speaker 1: was the only rightful foundation on which any government could stand.

1432
01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:35,360
Speaker 1: It rests upon force as much as any government that

1433
01:12:35,439 --> 01:12:40,479
Speaker 1: ever existed. And while that's true, what about your keeping slaves?

1434
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:43,880
Speaker 1: And what about the enforcement of a racial hierarchy? Right like,

1435
01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:47,439
Speaker 1: Lee doesn't care about the fact that the government enforces

1436
01:12:47,439 --> 01:12:50,439
Speaker 1: it shit through violence. He's just angry he lost. You know,

1437
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:54,040
Speaker 1: he and his friends were worse at doing violence. In

1438
01:12:54,160 --> 01:12:58,600
Speaker 1: rampant correspondence with influential friends around the country, Lee harangued

1439
01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:01,679
Speaker 1: the North for what he viewed as it unconstitutional imposition

1440
01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:05,280
Speaker 1: on the South. His reputation as a uniter is based

1441
01:13:05,320 --> 01:13:07,840
Speaker 1: on a couple of public statements and at odds with

1442
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:11,599
Speaker 1: his actual behavior. In eighteen sixty six, the old Colonel

1443
01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:13,840
Speaker 1: for he was never made general in the army of

1444
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:17,160
Speaker 1: a recognized nation, was interviewed by the Duke of Argyle.

1445
01:13:17,600 --> 01:13:20,280
Speaker 1: Here he sketched out the early dimensions of what became

1446
01:13:20,360 --> 01:13:23,920
Speaker 1: Lost Cause mythology. The relations between the negroes and the

1447
01:13:23,920 --> 01:13:27,760
Speaker 1: whites were friendly formerly and would remain so if legislation

1448
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:30,640
Speaker 1: be not passed in favor of the blacks in a

1449
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:35,120
Speaker 1: way that will only do them harm. Yeah, friendly, friendly,

1450
01:13:35,160 --> 01:13:37,400
Speaker 1: Do I need to reread the quotes of you whipping

1451
01:13:37,439 --> 01:13:40,760
Speaker 1: people like yeah, yeah, friendly.

1452
01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:43,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I cannot wait.

1453
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:47,120
Speaker 3: I cannot wait for when we get to do the

1454
01:13:47,240 --> 01:13:50,960
Speaker 3: Lost Cause stuff and that and the role that that actual.

1455
01:13:51,680 --> 01:13:55,639
Speaker 2: Yeah well, I mean like sick. Most black people liked it,

1456
01:13:55,760 --> 01:13:56,280
Speaker 2: like that was.

1457
01:13:57,880 --> 01:14:00,760
Speaker 3: Fine, fine for you guys came out there and told

1458
01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:01,679
Speaker 3: them they were slaves.

1459
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:05,560
Speaker 1: They didn't even know now. Alan Nolan goes on to

1460
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:08,760
Speaker 1: summarize Lee then continued that the North was raising up

1461
01:14:08,800 --> 01:14:12,160
Speaker 1: feelings of race and argue that laws in behalf of

1462
01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:14,280
Speaker 1: the blacks would not work to their advantage and would

1463
01:14:14,360 --> 01:14:17,479
Speaker 1: keep alive bad blood in the South against the North.

1464
01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:21,880
Speaker 1: The Southeast stated should be left alone. The contrary, course

1465
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:26,080
Speaker 1: was provocative of Southern hostility. He continued, The Southerners took

1466
01:14:26,120 --> 01:14:29,080
Speaker 1: up arms. Honestly, surely it is to be desired that

1467
01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:31,760
Speaker 1: the goodwill of our people be encouraged and there should

1468
01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:35,000
Speaker 1: be no inciting them against the North. And what he's

1469
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:37,920
Speaker 1: saying here is it's not fair we lost, and even

1470
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:41,000
Speaker 1: though we did, we should get to act like we won. Yeah, right,

1471
01:14:41,040 --> 01:14:44,040
Speaker 1: well just leave us alone. That can you not just

1472
01:14:44,120 --> 01:14:47,519
Speaker 1: pretend we won? No, you lost, you lost.

1473
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:51,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they're trying to do like whoever smelted delted racism? Yeah,

1474
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:54,200
Speaker 3: they're like yeah, yeah, like you know who only talks

1475
01:14:54,200 --> 01:14:57,720
Speaker 3: about racism is racist? So yeah, you shouldn't have came

1476
01:14:57,760 --> 01:14:58,760
Speaker 3: Downren told him that.

1477
01:15:00,080 --> 01:15:03,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, like by trying to enforce laws letting black people vote,

1478
01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:05,200
Speaker 1: you're the ones being violent.

1479
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:08,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, no, that is what you're Yeah.

1480
01:15:08,680 --> 01:15:12,120
Speaker 1: It's got it. It's so the same as the shit

1481
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:13,160
Speaker 1: people say today.

1482
01:15:13,360 --> 01:15:13,960
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah.

1483
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:18,679
Speaker 1: Anyway, Lee did not keep his activism private. In eighteen

1484
01:15:18,760 --> 01:15:22,680
Speaker 1: sixty eight, Union General William Rosecranz, a Democrat, commissioned the

1485
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:24,799
Speaker 1: writing of a letter that would lay out the supposed

1486
01:15:24,880 --> 01:15:27,200
Speaker 1: views of the Southern people about their defeat and what

1487
01:15:27,280 --> 01:15:30,800
Speaker 1: should come after. It complained that although Southerners had no

1488
01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:34,840
Speaker 1: unfriendly feelings towards the government anymore, their rights were being

1489
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:39,120
Speaker 1: infringed by laws enforcing black civil rights. This they insisted

1490
01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:41,840
Speaker 1: was not due to racism or their desire to enforce

1491
01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:44,880
Speaker 1: a racial hierarchy. They have grown up in our midst

1492
01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:47,280
Speaker 1: and we have been accustomed from childhood to look upon

1493
01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:50,040
Speaker 1: them with kindness. This change in the relation of the

1494
01:15:50,080 --> 01:15:53,360
Speaker 1: two races has brought no change in our feelings towards them.

1495
01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:56,520
Speaker 1: They still constitute an important part of our laboring population.

1496
01:15:56,880 --> 01:15:58,880
Speaker 1: Without their labor, the lands of the South would be

1497
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:03,320
Speaker 1: comparatively unproduct and without the employment which Southern agriculture affords,

1498
01:16:03,320 --> 01:16:05,599
Speaker 1: they would be destitute of a means of subsistence and

1499
01:16:05,640 --> 01:16:10,920
Speaker 1: become paupers dependent upon public bounty. It's such a no,

1500
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:13,000
Speaker 1: we don't hate them. We need them to do the

1501
01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:15,280
Speaker 1: work that we're not going to do. We just don't

1502
01:16:15,280 --> 01:16:16,559
Speaker 1: want them to have any rights.

1503
01:16:17,240 --> 01:16:22,719
Speaker 3: Listen, But like, okay, hear me out, if they don't

1504
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:26,920
Speaker 3: have to work our fields, Deman, we have to.

1505
01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:29,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's not fair.

1506
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:30,400
Speaker 2: That's not fair.

1507
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:35,760
Speaker 1: Lee doesn't just sign this letter, he actively pushes other

1508
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:38,800
Speaker 1: former Confederates to sign it as well. And while that

1509
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:41,519
Speaker 1: letter is obviously racist as fuck, what Lee said in

1510
01:16:41,680 --> 01:16:45,760
Speaker 1: person is even worse. Alan Nolan recounts one incident during

1511
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:48,840
Speaker 1: a visit of Lee to his cousin Thomas Carter. In

1512
01:16:48,880 --> 01:16:52,400
Speaker 1: discussing farming, Lee advised Carter not to depend on labor

1513
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:54,720
Speaker 1: for the ninety or so blacks who still lived on

1514
01:16:54,840 --> 01:16:57,720
Speaker 1: the place the government would, Lee said provide for them.

1515
01:16:57,960 --> 01:17:01,240
Speaker 1: Carter should employ white people, and then drew a comparison that,

1516
01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:05,480
Speaker 1: like many racist comments since Delton, stereotypes and completely disregarded

1517
01:17:05,479 --> 01:17:08,000
Speaker 1: the cause and effect where race is concerned. I have

1518
01:17:08,120 --> 01:17:10,800
Speaker 1: always observed that wherever you find the Negro, everything is

1519
01:17:10,840 --> 01:17:13,519
Speaker 1: going down around him, and wherever you find the white man,

1520
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:16,800
Speaker 1: you see everything around him improving. And I think that's

1521
01:17:16,840 --> 01:17:19,400
Speaker 1: funny from a man who led his side to a

1522
01:17:19,400 --> 01:17:22,360
Speaker 1: defeat so bad that its cities were burnt to the

1523
01:17:22,439 --> 01:17:25,720
Speaker 1: fucking ground. Was everything going down around you at the

1524
01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:29,600
Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty five? How was the South doing, Bobby Lee,

1525
01:17:29,640 --> 01:17:32,360
Speaker 1: after you and your friends were in charge for five years?

1526
01:17:32,720 --> 01:17:33,800
Speaker 1: Was it all improving?

1527
01:17:34,479 --> 01:17:36,280
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1528
01:17:36,360 --> 01:17:39,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, just watching Sherman Burness crops and going, wow, we've

1529
01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:43,120
Speaker 1: really improved the South. Things are looking up for us now.

1530
01:17:44,200 --> 01:17:46,680
Speaker 3: Listen, man, this had been so much better, like we

1531
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:47,520
Speaker 3: were in charge.

1532
01:17:47,760 --> 01:17:52,439
Speaker 5: It's such a funny thing for him, specifically to say,

1533
01:17:53,360 --> 01:17:56,840
Speaker 5: like you guys were in charge and you destroyed your

1534
01:17:57,000 --> 01:17:57,839
Speaker 5: entire culture.

1535
01:17:58,080 --> 01:18:00,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I should let me be in charge. Wait what.

1536
01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:08,559
Speaker 1: Hir? Yeah, so all of this is infuriating. I do

1537
01:18:08,600 --> 01:18:11,000
Speaker 1: think it punctures the myth that Lee was this great

1538
01:18:11,120 --> 01:18:14,280
Speaker 1: uniter after the war. But because of how infuriating this is,

1539
01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:16,720
Speaker 1: I want to end us on a happier note. The

1540
01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:19,640
Speaker 1: end of the winding story of Robert E. Lee's supposedly

1541
01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:24,360
Speaker 1: beloved plantation Arlington, his wife Mary Lee wrote to one

1542
01:18:24,400 --> 01:18:27,479
Speaker 1: friend that the occupation of her family land enraged her

1543
01:18:27,800 --> 01:18:29,920
Speaker 1: is so much that she could not write quote with

1544
01:18:30,040 --> 01:18:33,880
Speaker 1: composure about it. She howled she was particularly angry that

1545
01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:36,760
Speaker 1: the graves of poor men quote are planted up next

1546
01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:40,040
Speaker 1: to the very door without any regard to common decency.

1547
01:18:40,439 --> 01:18:43,240
Speaker 1: If justice and law are not utterly extinct.

1548
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:44,759
Speaker 2: In the US, I will have it back.

1549
01:18:45,200 --> 01:18:47,080
Speaker 1: And again this is part of like there, these are

1550
01:18:47,120 --> 01:18:50,479
Speaker 1: poor men, how dare they bury them on my family land?

1551
01:18:50,600 --> 01:18:53,720
Speaker 2: Oh? My god, have you no manners?

1552
01:18:54,080 --> 01:18:54,320
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1553
01:18:54,479 --> 01:18:57,320
Speaker 2: Like word, that's what you worried about? Okay.

1554
01:18:58,040 --> 01:19:01,920
Speaker 1: Bobby Lee tries in secret to get this property back

1555
01:19:01,960 --> 01:19:04,960
Speaker 1: for his wife's family. He asks a lawyer friend to

1556
01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:07,640
Speaker 1: find a path for him to take retake possession and

1557
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:11,439
Speaker 1: stop the government from burying soldiers there. Robert Poole writes

1558
01:19:11,520 --> 01:19:14,920
Speaker 1: quote Lee made a clandestine visit to the old estate

1559
01:19:14,960 --> 01:19:17,799
Speaker 1: in the Autumner winter of eighteen sixty five. He concluded

1560
01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:19,840
Speaker 1: that the place could be made habitable again if a

1561
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:22,679
Speaker 1: wall was built to screen the graves from the mansion.

1562
01:19:23,080 --> 01:19:25,599
Speaker 1: But Smith Lee made the mistake of sharing his views

1563
01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:29,040
Speaker 1: with the cemetery superintendent, who dutifully shared them with Meegs,

1564
01:19:29,080 --> 01:19:32,120
Speaker 1: along with the mystery visitor's identity. While the Les worked

1565
01:19:32,120 --> 01:19:36,080
Speaker 1: to reclaim Arlington, Meegs urged Edwards Edwin Stanton in early

1566
01:19:36,120 --> 01:19:38,559
Speaker 1: eighteen sixty six to make sure the government had sound

1567
01:19:38,600 --> 01:19:41,599
Speaker 1: title to the cemetery. The land had been consecrated by

1568
01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:43,960
Speaker 1: the remains buried there and could not be given back

1569
01:19:43,960 --> 01:19:46,639
Speaker 1: to the Lees. He insisted, striking a refrain he would

1570
01:19:46,640 --> 01:19:49,000
Speaker 1: repeat in the years since. Yet the Lees clung to

1571
01:19:49,040 --> 01:19:51,120
Speaker 1: the hope that Arlington might be returned to the family,

1572
01:19:51,360 --> 01:19:53,400
Speaker 1: if not to Missus Lee, than to one of their sons.

1573
01:19:53,600 --> 01:19:56,240
Speaker 1: The former General was quietly pursuing this objective when he

1574
01:19:56,280 --> 01:19:58,679
Speaker 1: met with his lawyers for the last time in July

1575
01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:02,719
Speaker 1: eighteen seventy. The prospect does not look promising he reported

1576
01:20:02,720 --> 01:20:06,640
Speaker 1: to Mary and I I love Meigs. I love that

1577
01:20:06,720 --> 01:20:08,840
Speaker 1: he's like he sees how important this is to them

1578
01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:11,120
Speaker 1: and is like, well, I can't make the government kill them,

1579
01:20:11,400 --> 01:20:13,720
Speaker 1: but I can damn sure make sure they never get

1580
01:20:13,760 --> 01:20:17,080
Speaker 1: to step foot in that fucking house again. I also

1581
01:20:17,120 --> 01:20:19,960
Speaker 1: love Mary's like their cousin Smith is like, well, we

1582
01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:21,640
Speaker 1: can make the property. We just have to build a

1583
01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:26,800
Speaker 1: wall between the graves of all those deady.

1584
01:20:25,200 --> 01:20:26,240
Speaker 2: Walk outside.

1585
01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:27,599
Speaker 3: Yard.

1586
01:20:27,680 --> 01:20:28,640
Speaker 2: It's wall.

1587
01:20:28,720 --> 01:20:30,680
Speaker 1: It's such a just and the degree of what a

1588
01:20:30,720 --> 01:20:34,320
Speaker 1: disgusting person to be, like, well, I can't. You can't

1589
01:20:34,360 --> 01:20:37,200
Speaker 1: expect me to look at poor men's graves, the men

1590
01:20:37,200 --> 01:20:42,160
Speaker 1: who died fighting for liberties graves like I can't. How sickening,

1591
01:20:42,240 --> 01:20:44,160
Speaker 1: what a bad imagine.

1592
01:20:44,560 --> 01:20:47,400
Speaker 2: How bad you could miss the point? Yeah, just like

1593
01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:51,599
Speaker 2: take the l, like just just.

1594
01:20:51,560 --> 01:20:54,559
Speaker 3: Take the l and yeah, yeah, shout out megs did

1595
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:58,120
Speaker 3: being like be it like, oh word, hey homie, I

1596
01:20:58,120 --> 01:20:59,920
Speaker 3: don't know how it is to tell you it this

1597
01:21:00,040 --> 01:21:03,960
Speaker 3: Saint jo Land. Yeah you are not just out of yes,

1598
01:21:04,200 --> 01:21:08,000
Speaker 3: like we broke up. Stop texting me like we're not together.

1599
01:21:08,760 --> 01:21:11,760
Speaker 3: It's not show Land as a matter of fact, like

1600
01:21:11,840 --> 01:21:15,080
Speaker 3: it like good thing means had like some kooth because

1601
01:21:15,120 --> 01:21:17,880
Speaker 3: at that point I'm burying somebody like in the living room.

1602
01:21:18,080 --> 01:21:20,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like, all right, you know you're not getting

1603
01:21:20,439 --> 01:21:21,519
Speaker 2: a picture. Mm hmmm.

1604
01:21:21,880 --> 01:21:23,960
Speaker 3: Put put this coffee right here on your porch where

1605
01:21:24,000 --> 01:21:28,120
Speaker 3: you catch the vapors and drink your sweet tea. Actually,

1606
01:21:28,120 --> 01:21:29,880
Speaker 3: no shade on sweet tea. That's one of the most

1607
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:31,360
Speaker 3: things that fact has ever given us.

1608
01:21:32,360 --> 01:21:37,000
Speaker 1: Roberty Lee Guys October twelfth, eighteen seventy. Now some will

1609
01:21:37,120 --> 01:21:39,160
Speaker 1: argue that this was the tragic result of a night

1610
01:21:39,200 --> 01:21:43,080
Speaker 1: of furious love making with this horse traveler. Some historians

1611
01:21:43,120 --> 01:21:45,240
Speaker 1: say it's likely that it was caused by a stroke

1612
01:21:45,320 --> 01:21:48,400
Speaker 1: in September that debilitated and he died of pneumonia.

1613
01:21:48,439 --> 01:21:51,360
Speaker 2: Who is success stroke if you know what I mean.

1614
01:21:51,520 --> 01:21:55,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, the one mercy we have here is that

1615
01:21:55,760 --> 01:21:58,240
Speaker 1: his stroke caused of him to have a phasia. So

1616
01:21:58,320 --> 01:22:00,639
Speaker 1: we don't know his last words because he wasn't really

1617
01:22:00,720 --> 01:22:06,040
Speaker 1: able to talk after he was thankfully right. Yes, one

1618
01:22:06,040 --> 01:22:07,960
Speaker 1: claim is that he was like giving orders to his

1619
01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:10,680
Speaker 1: old subordinates to advance. You know, we don't really know

1620
01:22:10,720 --> 01:22:13,920
Speaker 1: what if he actually got anything out, though by the

1621
01:22:13,960 --> 01:22:17,800
Speaker 1: time he died his myth was well established. Frederick Douglas

1622
01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:21,519
Speaker 1: expressed rage that the hagiographic reaction to his passing even

1623
01:22:21,560 --> 01:22:24,600
Speaker 1: in northern media, quote, we can scarcely take up a

1624
01:22:24,600 --> 01:22:27,720
Speaker 1: newspaper that is not filled with nauseating flatteries of lee,

1625
01:22:28,040 --> 01:22:30,400
Speaker 1: from which it would seem that the soldier who kills

1626
01:22:30,400 --> 01:22:32,960
Speaker 1: the most men in battle, even in a bad cause,

1627
01:22:33,240 --> 01:22:36,040
Speaker 1: is the greatest Christian and entitled to the highest place

1628
01:22:36,080 --> 01:22:39,920
Speaker 1: in heaven. And uh yeah, I feel you.

1629
01:22:40,320 --> 01:22:43,679
Speaker 3: Feel you there, fred Oh, Freddy, Freddy with the Afro

1630
01:22:44,479 --> 01:22:46,840
Speaker 3: bro You're keeping it real because it's like this is

1631
01:22:47,680 --> 01:22:48,720
Speaker 3: it's so infuriating.

1632
01:22:48,800 --> 01:22:50,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

1633
01:22:50,240 --> 01:22:53,960
Speaker 1: Afterwards, Mary was left alone in her quest to regain Arlington.

1634
01:22:54,360 --> 01:22:57,839
Speaker 1: She formally begged Congress to not just revisit federal ownership

1635
01:22:57,920 --> 01:22:59,920
Speaker 1: of the property, but to put together a plan to

1636
01:23:00,200 --> 01:23:04,040
Speaker 1: remove the bodies of the dead men interred there. Effectively,

1637
01:23:04,360 --> 01:23:07,320
Speaker 1: she wanted to desecrate a cemetery, yes, filled with the

1638
01:23:07,320 --> 01:23:10,160
Speaker 1: brave men her husband had killed with his treason. The

1639
01:23:10,240 --> 01:23:13,640
Speaker 1: proposal lost fifty four to four. Oh of course, it

1640
01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:17,880
Speaker 1: is yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1641
01:23:18,040 --> 01:23:19,120
Speaker 2: You shouldn't have married him.

1642
01:23:19,320 --> 01:23:22,799
Speaker 3: Okay, he's like, this was my daddy's house.

1643
01:23:23,800 --> 01:23:26,879
Speaker 2: His dumb ass. It's like, ma'am, that is your husband.

1644
01:23:27,520 --> 01:23:33,480
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, that is your husband, so shameful, yes, boohoo.

1645
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:38,080
Speaker 1: So the media farer over her attempt to consecrate or

1646
01:23:38,120 --> 01:23:40,439
Speaker 1: to or he attempt to take back Arlington. This is

1647
01:23:40,520 --> 01:23:43,720
Speaker 1: what consecrates it as a symbol of the Union, right,

1648
01:23:44,080 --> 01:23:46,840
Speaker 1: and like that is part of why, like to this day,

1649
01:23:46,880 --> 01:23:49,639
Speaker 1: it's the military cemetery. It's where you can be buried

1650
01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:52,600
Speaker 1: if you were a veteran. Freedmen continued to stay on

1651
01:23:52,640 --> 01:23:55,479
Speaker 1: the property for decades. They had children, and they built

1652
01:23:55,560 --> 01:23:59,040
Speaker 1: lives for themselves and houses built by the army. Meigs

1653
01:23:59,080 --> 01:24:02,240
Speaker 1: also remained, but twenty years, turning the property into a

1654
01:24:02,280 --> 01:24:05,320
Speaker 1: temple for the honored dead. Mary Lee would see it

1655
01:24:05,360 --> 01:24:08,080
Speaker 1: only one more time in eighteen seventy three. She like

1656
01:24:08,240 --> 01:24:10,639
Speaker 1: visits to like just kind of look at it one

1657
01:24:10,720 --> 01:24:13,320
Speaker 1: last time, and she expressed the feeling that it had

1658
01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:16,360
Speaker 1: been so changed that she no longer recognized the place.

1659
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:18,080
Speaker 1: So I'm glad we got to stick that knife in.

1660
01:24:18,040 --> 01:24:21,280
Speaker 2: Her own guest. Yeah before you yeah, yeah, before you died.

1661
01:24:21,880 --> 01:24:24,840
Speaker 1: The Lee family does. Eventually, there's like court cases and

1662
01:24:24,920 --> 01:24:27,559
Speaker 1: it's it's determined that because she made a good faith

1663
01:24:27,560 --> 01:24:31,000
Speaker 1: attempt to pay the government hadn't been entirely legal, So

1664
01:24:31,040 --> 01:24:32,920
Speaker 1: we have to the government has to pay the Lee

1665
01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:35,040
Speaker 1: family like one hundred and fifty grand, which I think

1666
01:24:35,120 --> 01:24:38,200
Speaker 1: is bullshit. But they don't ever get the property back,

1667
01:24:38,320 --> 01:24:41,120
Speaker 1: and so that's as close to a happy ending. That

1668
01:24:41,240 --> 01:24:43,080
Speaker 1: and the fact that they lost the war as you

1669
01:24:43,120 --> 01:24:44,120
Speaker 1: ever get on this show.

1670
01:24:44,240 --> 01:24:46,040
Speaker 2: So this could have gotten much worse.

1671
01:24:46,160 --> 01:24:50,600
Speaker 1: Yes, Yeah, there we go. Man, that is behind the bastards.

1672
01:24:51,200 --> 01:24:55,240
Speaker 2: Robert motherfucking e Lee. Yep, what a guy, man.

1673
01:24:55,439 --> 01:25:00,240
Speaker 3: I dude, some people were just so obviously a tool

1674
01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:01,400
Speaker 3: that you're just like.

1675
01:25:02,920 --> 01:25:07,120
Speaker 2: Are we still talking about this guy? He's such a tool. Yeah,

1676
01:25:07,200 --> 01:25:07,920
Speaker 2: he sure was.

1677
01:25:08,439 --> 01:25:12,639
Speaker 1: But now he's dead and now he's well Prop, that's

1678
01:25:12,680 --> 01:25:13,920
Speaker 1: the that's the show.

1679
01:25:14,960 --> 01:25:20,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, is that the Anderson.

1680
01:25:16,840 --> 01:25:22,080
Speaker 2: Ye dog outside and now she's all yeah, she got

1681
01:25:22,120 --> 01:25:26,120
Speaker 2: all Rottweiler on us represent mm hmmm what do you think?

1682
01:25:27,960 --> 01:25:28,280
Speaker 3: Oh?

1683
01:25:28,360 --> 01:25:29,479
Speaker 1: She said, fuck Robert E.

1684
01:25:29,560 --> 01:25:29,720
Speaker 3: Lee.

1685
01:25:29,760 --> 01:25:34,640
Speaker 2: I'm glad he's dead and thank you.

1686
01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:37,080
Speaker 1: Well Prop, you got anything the plug?

1687
01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:41,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, man, prop hip hop dot com. There's some poetry,

1688
01:25:41,400 --> 01:25:46,400
Speaker 3: some music, clink you to hood politics, will PROP the

1689
01:25:46,439 --> 01:25:50,320
Speaker 3: podcast on cool Zone Media where we're really giving y'all

1690
01:25:50,320 --> 01:25:55,400
Speaker 3: a business man and and uh, yeah, it's good times.

1691
01:25:55,400 --> 01:25:56,400
Speaker 2: I'm glad to be a part of his.

1692
01:25:57,160 --> 01:25:59,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we are glad to have you, and we

1693
01:25:59,880 --> 01:26:02,640
Speaker 1: are glad to be done talking about Robert E.

1694
01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:02,880
Speaker 2: Lee.

1695
01:26:02,960 --> 01:26:05,160
Speaker 1: So check in next week where you will have a

1696
01:26:05,160 --> 01:26:08,880
Speaker 1: bastard that's not fucking Roberty Lee. Yeah, because we did

1697
01:26:08,960 --> 01:26:09,880
Speaker 1: him and he's dead.

1698
01:26:10,400 --> 01:26:13,040
Speaker 3: Yes, and we're going to do a Lost Cause episode specifically,

1699
01:26:13,160 --> 01:26:15,360
Speaker 3: right yeah, no, that's on my feet.

1700
01:26:15,560 --> 01:26:17,120
Speaker 2: Ye yeah you guys.

1701
01:26:17,160 --> 01:26:20,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, like we've been talking about around like what it like,

1702
01:26:21,040 --> 01:26:24,320
Speaker 3: we're going to do show all the politics that's like, okay,

1703
01:26:24,360 --> 01:26:26,759
Speaker 3: this is the Loss Cause, these are the six points,

1704
01:26:27,120 --> 01:26:29,920
Speaker 3: this is how it grew, this why is not dead yet? Yep?

1705
01:26:30,760 --> 01:26:34,439
Speaker 1: Check that out. So check it out. You can get

1706
01:26:34,479 --> 01:26:36,519
Speaker 1: the ad free version of this show if you go

1707
01:26:36,640 --> 01:26:39,920
Speaker 1: to cooler Zone Media and you can find my book

1708
01:26:39,960 --> 01:26:42,400
Speaker 1: After the Revolution wherever books are sold. Just type it

1709
01:26:42,400 --> 01:26:46,280
Speaker 1: into Google with ak press or type it into whatever

1710
01:26:46,400 --> 01:26:51,640
Speaker 1: you use Amazon. I don't care ask a bookseller, you know. Anyway, Goodbye,

1711
01:26:51,960 --> 01:26:52,479
Speaker 1: We're done.

1712
01:26:52,600 --> 01:26:59,520
Speaker 2: Gooses Behind the Bastards is a production a cool Zone Media.

1713
01:26:59,640 --> 01:27:02,920
Speaker 2: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1714
01:27:03,080 --> 01:27:06,280
Speaker 2: dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app.

1715
01:27:06,360 --> 01:27:08,800
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.