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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and this is a bonus

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Speaker 1: episode of Next Question. You're Lucky Ducks. Whoma Abodeen, who

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Speaker 1: I've known for many years. And Whoma has her own

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Speaker 1: book coming out next week, so a little shameless plug

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Speaker 1: for that. Whoma Aberdeen came to the New York stop

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Speaker 1: of my recent book tour. Now. The book she's written

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Speaker 1: is called Both and A Life in Many Worlds. Now

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Speaker 1: that I've finished talking about my memoir, I was really

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Speaker 1: looking forward to talking to Huma about hers and I

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Speaker 1: was very happy she was happy to jump on a

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Speaker 1: zoom with me. Oh my god, I'm so thrilled. I'm

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Speaker 1: so excited. We have a lot to talk about now.

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Speaker 1: If you're not familiar with Whoma, that was her intention.

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Speaker 1: For two decades, she's been mostly in the background as

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Speaker 1: the long time trusted aid of Hillary Clinton. She became

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Speaker 1: a more public figure as the wife now ex wife

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Speaker 1: of Congressman Anthony Weener. We'll get into that whole scandal

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Speaker 1: in a moment, because finally Huma is stepping out of

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Speaker 1: the shadows and she's telling her own story, which she

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Speaker 1: says has been cathartic. So much of um the process

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Speaker 1: of writing the book really for me did turn out

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Speaker 1: to be therapy. I didn't expect it to be. I

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Speaker 1: wasn't sure I should tell my story. I liked being

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Speaker 1: the invisible person behind you know, Hillary first and then Anthony,

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Speaker 1: and really my parents because I think, like you, I had.

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Speaker 1: I was very close to my parents, particularly had a

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Speaker 1: very close relationship with my father, and I liked I

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Speaker 1: liked my privacy. Um, I liked that space. But I

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Speaker 1: think their reason. You know, for many months this book

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Speaker 1: was actually called and my editor hates the title, and

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Speaker 1: everyone I've mentioned to hates this title. It was called Bracing.

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Speaker 1: For a long time the book was called Bracing. And

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Speaker 1: the reason it was called bracing is il is though

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Speaker 1: two things. One I was physically bracing behind people, behind Hillary,

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Speaker 1: behind Anthony, but also so much of my life was

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Speaker 1: bracing for the next call, the next breaking news story,

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Speaker 1: the next accusations, the next crisis, the next time you

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Speaker 1: have to be dragged into the FBI. And so my

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Speaker 1: constant state of being was an anxiety and anxious state.

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Speaker 1: And I think, by putting my full truth, um, it

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Speaker 1: was a catharsis that. Um? You know? When I started

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Speaker 1: writing the book, my researcher said, the two most common

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Speaker 1: articles about there in the world about you Huma is

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Speaker 1: number one what is wrong with her? And number two

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Speaker 1: what is she thinking? And so I chose to put

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Speaker 1: exactly what I was thinking, um into this book. And

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Speaker 1: I feel a great and the response has been so Really,

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Speaker 1: I have no better word than humbling. Just hearing from

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Speaker 1: women and young people. UM. And I'm not just saying

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Speaker 1: as Katie because I'm talking to you, but seeing this

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Speaker 1: and I worked for an icon uh in you know,

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Speaker 1: in my opinion as someone I really admire and respect

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Speaker 1: professionally and personally. But to read your story and what

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Speaker 1: you went through, the trail blazer that you have been,

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Speaker 1: I have to say when I read your story and

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Speaker 1: if I read it and then by the way I

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Speaker 1: listened to it, I did both. Is you see the

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Speaker 1: struggles that people have gone through and what they've achieved,

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Speaker 1: you know, for women like me and I. So I'm

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Speaker 1: in such a sort of positive place. I'm sure I'll

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Speaker 1: be terrified next week. So it's I think we can

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Speaker 1: be both and but I'm in I'm in a pretty

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Speaker 1: happy place right now. Did you feel part of this

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Speaker 1: book was reclaiming your narrative because I think, especially for

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Speaker 1: someone like you and to an extent, someone like me,

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Speaker 1: despite the fact that you were much more of a

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Speaker 1: private person and I was, by virtue of my job

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Speaker 1: of a much more public person. Did you feel like

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Speaker 1: you were having to reclaim your story, a story that

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Speaker 1: you felt so many other people had written or speculated about,

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Speaker 1: or ascribe certain character traits or emotions to your experience.

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Speaker 1: Was that part of the motivation, like, actually, this is

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Speaker 1: what it was like, and this is what I was feeling,

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Speaker 1: and um wait, what was the first question? They said?

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Speaker 1: Was the question other than what are you thinking? And

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Speaker 1: and by the way, this is what is wrong with me?

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Speaker 1: Put that in the book. He was claiming my history.

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Speaker 1: You know, my father always told me, your eyes are

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Speaker 1: in the front of your head for a reason. It

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Speaker 1: is to look forward. So even though my parents always

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Speaker 1: wanted us to learn about history, the purpose of that

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Speaker 1: was not to live in the past. It was to

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Speaker 1: understand how to make decisions in the future, how to

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Speaker 1: inform decisions that we were going to make. And I

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Speaker 1: believe my father always thought I was going to be

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Speaker 1: an author when I write a story in the book.

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Speaker 1: When I was ten, he gave me Silas Marner. He

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Speaker 1: often brought me books from his travels and I didn't

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Speaker 1: understand the material, but I I looked at the introduction

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Speaker 1: and I went to my father and said, why did

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Speaker 1: this woman, Marianne Evans have to use a fake a

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Speaker 1: man's name, George Elliott to publish her book? And my

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Speaker 1: father said, well, in the Victorian era, women weren't taken

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Speaker 1: seriously as writers, so she had to use a man's name.

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Speaker 1: But don't worry. When you grow up and you write

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Speaker 1: your book, you will use your own name and everyone

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Speaker 1: will take it seriously. So to me, to some degree,

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Speaker 1: this book is a love letter to my father. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's all the things that I could have one more conversation.

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Speaker 1: I was seventeen when I lost him to say, this

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Speaker 1: is what I did, and I hope you're proud of me,

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Speaker 1: but it is to stay claim on my my own

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Speaker 1: story and my history. I did think other people were

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Speaker 1: writing my story for the law twenty years and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to take that back. And I haven't shared this

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Speaker 1: very much, but maybe because I'm having this conversation with you.

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Speaker 1: One of the main reasons I decided to write the

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Speaker 1: book was, you know, the idea of the book was

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Speaker 1: actually my friend was Anna win towards idea. Right after

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Speaker 1: the election. She takes me to dinner says you should

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Speaker 1: write your book. And I thought, no way. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to do what I want to disappear, I felt.

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Speaker 1: So I was so traumatized, so devastated. I said, absolutely not.

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Speaker 1: And uh and and then I go tell Hillary. Anna

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Speaker 1: thinks I should write my book, and Hillary says, a

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Speaker 1: great idea. Oh my god, you've a great story. I

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Speaker 1: said no. I went to lunch with a man seven

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Speaker 1: months later who was giving me professional advice about what

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Speaker 1: I should do when I grow up, and I said

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Speaker 1: to him, several people have suggested I write my book.

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Speaker 1: And he looked at me with a straight face and said,

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Speaker 1: why would you do that? And I said, well, it's

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Speaker 1: it's a good story. I've you know, walked alongside history.

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Speaker 1: He says, you know, I don't think anyone wants to

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Speaker 1: hear any more about all that scandal. And there's no

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Speaker 1: way you're going to satisfactorily answer all these questions about

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Speaker 1: Hillary and Anthony. I don't know why you do it.

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Speaker 1: I walked out of that lunch and I was writing

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Speaker 1: the book and it was the moment that somebody suggested

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Speaker 1: the story wasn't worthy, that I wasn't worthy that made

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Speaker 1: me basically start putting it all down, or that they

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Speaker 1: had bought into whatever narrative was out there as factual

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Speaker 1: and they were tired of hearing about a story that

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Speaker 1: they didn't really understand, appreciate or no fully exactly right. Yeah, wow,

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Speaker 1: I hadn't thought about it like that, but that's exactly right. Yes, Yes,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about your your parents, because as as you said,

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Speaker 1: you lost your dad when you were just seventeen years old.

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Speaker 1: But both of your parents were academics. They sound as

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Speaker 1: if they were extraordinary people. And you've had such an

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Speaker 1: interesting background. Um, you know, traveled all over the world.

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Speaker 1: You all lived all over the world. Can you just

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Speaker 1: give us the cliff notes huma for people who haven't

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Speaker 1: read the book yet about your background, And then I

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Speaker 1: want to ask you about some of the lessons you

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Speaker 1: felt both your parents taught you. So I am the

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Speaker 1: product of two immigrant parents and Indian father a Pakistani mother.

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Speaker 1: They left their homes, their families, their countries back in

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Speaker 1: the sixties. They were full right scholars for them. Education

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Speaker 1: really in itself was a religion, and they came to

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Speaker 1: this country. They met at the University of Pennsylvania, fell

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Speaker 1: in love, got married. They were supposed to go back

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Speaker 1: home to marry people they were promised too, but neither

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Speaker 1: of them did got married. And for people who understand

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Speaker 1: the history, India had just gone through this very bloody,

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Speaker 1: brutal partition and two people from those countries could not

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Speaker 1: go back and live in peace, and so they sought

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Speaker 1: asylum in this country. They got it. Moved to Michigan

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Speaker 1: because the deal my parents had is they would move wherever.

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Speaker 1: They both got jobs at universities and um I was

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Speaker 1: born in Kalamazoo, Michigan. But when I was too my

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Speaker 1: father was diagnosed with renal failure and he was told

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Speaker 1: he had five to ten years to get his affairs

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Speaker 1: in order. And it was one of the first lines

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Speaker 1: I wrote in my book Katie. My father was told

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Speaker 1: he was dying, and so he went out and he

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Speaker 1: lived and we two months later we moved to Saudi

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Speaker 1: Arabia and I spent it was meant to be a

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Speaker 1: one year sabbatical. It was forty two years ago. I

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Speaker 1: spent my entire childhood. As you said, my parents loved

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Speaker 1: exploring different cultures, countries, languages, places, and so every summer

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Speaker 1: we had the privilege to travel all over the place

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Speaker 1: and gave me I felt a real understanding and appreciation

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Speaker 1: and more than that, a comfort. So even though when

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Speaker 1: we were raised as Americans, it was so core to

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Speaker 1: our identity, this notion of experiencing other places and spaces.

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Speaker 1: So when I walked into the White House at one

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Speaker 1: years old, not not you know, having anyone really like

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Speaker 1: me surround me, I did. I think my different perspective

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Speaker 1: was actually huge advantage having set that whom did you

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Speaker 1: ever feel other rise did you ever feel uncomfortable? Are

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Speaker 1: different because your Muslim? And you know, there weren't a

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Speaker 1: ton of Muslim men or women operating in the spheres

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Speaker 1: you were working in. I share the story in the

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Speaker 1: book that I, you know, one summer my father was

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Speaker 1: having his kidney transplant, how we did go to school

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Speaker 1: in America for a brief period, and that I did,

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Speaker 1: for a tiny bit of time experience a little bit

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Speaker 1: of what it is like to feel like another. But

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Speaker 1: I think because of the way we had been raised,

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Speaker 1: my father, you know, always said people are like plants,

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Speaker 1: and a plant is only as good as its roots.

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Speaker 1: And if you maintain the roots, the soil, winter storm,

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Speaker 1: the plant is gonna be okay. So I think that

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Speaker 1: gave me a sense of confidence in who I was

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Speaker 1: and my values and my belief system. You know, both

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Speaker 1: my parents did this, so I didn't and and I

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Speaker 1: and I was the child of somebody who spent his

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Speaker 1: entire life exploring the other, my father. It's why later

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Speaker 1: in life, when my parents were attacked for me extremists,

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Speaker 1: it was so shocking because their whole approach the world

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Speaker 1: was I want to understand. I want to go and

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Speaker 1: have conversations with people who don't agree with me and

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Speaker 1: try to understand their perspective. So no, when I walked

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Speaker 1: into the White House, I proudly shared my faith traditions,

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Speaker 1: my cultural traditions, and I felt as though, at least

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Speaker 1: in the Clinton administration, it was seen as an asset.

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Speaker 1: It was Let's send her to Jordan's for King Hussain's funeral,

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Speaker 1: Let's have her go to Morocco, Let's have her go

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Speaker 1: to Tunisia. And I share the stories about going to

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Speaker 1: the Macedonian refugee camp and talking to the East coast

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Speaker 1: of our Muslim women it was I felt very embraced

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Speaker 1: and very protected in that community. Having said that, you

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Speaker 1: do write about Michelle Bachman. And it's interesting because I

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Speaker 1: so remember Huma. During the two thousand six sixteen campaign,

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Speaker 1: a friend of mine sent me a video about you

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Speaker 1: and about your family and about the Muslim brotherhood that

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Speaker 1: you described in the book. And I said to my friend,

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Speaker 1: this is ki less, this is made up propaganda. You

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Speaker 1: shouldn't believe it and you should not share it. And

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Speaker 1: I was so incensed by it because I always was

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Speaker 1: very upset about the Islamophobia that penetrated the culture, particularly

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Speaker 1: after A nine eleven and then when I read about

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Speaker 1: Michelle Bachman and the other members of Congress who were

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Speaker 1: attacking you based on that video, Um, it was just infuriating.

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Speaker 1: But it's also you talk about how how impotent you

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Speaker 1: felt during that period, because it's almost as if me

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Speaker 1: thinks she doth protest too much. It's it's a damned

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Speaker 1: if you don't do, damned if you don't situation. And

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Speaker 1: that must have been maddening for you. Yeah, I it

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Speaker 1: was one of the people when people ask me what

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Speaker 1: the worst experience was in my adult life, it was

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Speaker 1: that moment because one of the reasons I did choose

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Speaker 1: to write the book is to explain what it is

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Speaker 1: to be an American Muslim. I think the average American

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Speaker 1: does not know. And since the book has been out,

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Speaker 1: the number of conversations I've had with people and they'll say, oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't I didn't know you believed in Jesus. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know that you believe in Moses. And it's all

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Speaker 1: you know the same. And so that was it was

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Speaker 1: actually a motivation for writing the book and sharing about

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Speaker 1: a faith that I'm very proud of and is a

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Speaker 1: whole way of life as I described. And the reason,

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Speaker 1: you know, the Bachman incident and and you know the

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Speaker 1: other members of commerce who signed on to that letter,

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't even just me who was attacked. There

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Speaker 1: were other very high ranking, well respected Muslims in government,

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Speaker 1: um who were attacked. Is that we come from a

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Speaker 1: part of the world where your reputation is everything. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's sort of one bad accusation, one kind of black

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Speaker 1: cloud over your your head is a very you know, serious,

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Speaker 1: a very serious thing. And it was so specially because

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Speaker 1: they were impugning your parents. I I, as I write

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Speaker 1: in the book, it I at that point it was

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Speaker 1: used to this kind of you know, sort of underhanded politics.

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Speaker 1: But it was my parents, it was my family, and

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Speaker 1: we all felt impotent. And you you nailed it when

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Speaker 1: you said she doth protest too much. It was don't

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Speaker 1: say anything, because you're going to elevate it. I grew

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Speaker 1: up in the Clinton world of politics back in the

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Speaker 1: nineties was all about the you know, twenty four hour

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Speaker 1: cable news and the proactive message of the day is

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Speaker 1: what you drove. So if it was healthcare, that's all

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Speaker 1: you talked about every day, and you didn't acknowledge the nonsense, Katie,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you remember these days. It was now in

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Speaker 1: twelve we were living in the news cycle with social

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Speaker 1: media and not responding basically acknowledged that was true. And

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Speaker 1: it was when we went to Egypt. And I share

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Speaker 1: this story in the book I traveled with Hillary when

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Speaker 1: she was Secretary of State to Egypt. We're sitting at

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Speaker 1: a table and this Egyptian man looks at Hillary and says,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that we trust your government because of

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Speaker 1: this woman who was whispering these unpatriotic things in your

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Speaker 1: ear and Hillary and typical Hillary fashion says, Oh, you mean,

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Speaker 1: who am not? She's right over here. You should talk

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Speaker 1: to her and clear it up. And I did have

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Speaker 1: a conversation with this man, but it really showed, you know,

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Speaker 1: I I wrote this in the book. I felt as

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Speaker 1: though that was an appetizer for what was to come

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Speaker 1: in I mean, my community. I was just you know,

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Speaker 1: when Obama went to the you know, at the White

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Speaker 1: House defended me and John McCain went to the floor

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Speaker 1: of the Senate. It was amazing and humbling, but it

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Speaker 1: was more than just about me. It was about standing

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Speaker 1: up for the principles and values upon which this country

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Speaker 1: was built. I was really moved by what Senator McCain

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Speaker 1: said about you and how he defended you on the

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Speaker 1: floor of the Senate. Let's listen. Over the past decade,

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Speaker 1: I've had the pleasure of knowing her during her long

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Speaker 1: and dedicated service to Hillary Rodham Clinton, both in the

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Speaker 1: United States Senate and now in the Department of State.

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Speaker 1: I know Homa to be an intelligent, upstanding, hard working,

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Speaker 1: and loyal servant of our country in our government who

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Speaker 1: was devoted countless days of her life to advancing the

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Speaker 1: ideals of the nation. She loves and looking after its

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Speaker 1: most precious interests. That she has done so while maintaining

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Speaker 1: her characteristic decency, warmth, and good humor is a testament

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Speaker 1: to her ability to bear even the most arduous duties

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Speaker 1: with poise and confidence. But simply, Huma Abdeen represents what

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Speaker 1: is best about America, the daughter of immigrants who has

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Speaker 1: risen to the highest levels of our government on the

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Speaker 1: basis of her substantial personal merit and her abiding commitment

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Speaker 1: to the American ideals that she embodies. I am proud

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Speaker 1: to know her, and I am proud, even maybe with

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Speaker 1: some presumption to call her my friend. You write about that, Huma,

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Speaker 1: and that meant the world to you, didn't it. And

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Speaker 1: it made me miss politicians, particularly Republicans like John McCain

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Speaker 1: so much. I feel exactly the same way. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it feels as though the party is a different party

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Speaker 1: than the party we we worked with in the Senate,

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Speaker 1: both staff and you know, at a principal level, where

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Speaker 1: you there was that decency, the honor, the respect that

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Speaker 1: you know, standing up for values and principles that are

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Speaker 1: shared values and principles, And it seems as though that

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Speaker 1: was a different era. I don't I don't recognize this, uh,

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Speaker 1: the new this new brand of of politics where you

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Speaker 1: can say terrible things about a colleague and not even

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Speaker 1: you know, get condemned. Has happened with you know, a

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Speaker 1: f C a few weeks ago. I mean, it is

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Speaker 1: shocking to me say terrible things and actually just lie

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Speaker 1: about things. UM. Do you think will ever get back

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Speaker 1: to a more civil, responsible time in politics, Katie? I

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Speaker 1: think if we don't, it's the end of our democracy.

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Speaker 1: There's no way forward unless we figure out how to

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Speaker 1: work together, respect each other. You know, this administration certainly

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Speaker 1: has their hands full and is you know, been trying

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Speaker 1: to correct a lot of what went wrong, what went sideways,

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Speaker 1: um in the last administration. But boy is it hard.

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Speaker 1: And I think the only way forward is forcing people

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Speaker 1: to the table and having these conversations. What is the

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Speaker 1: alternative is just yelling at each other and you know,

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Speaker 1: sticking in our corners and then nothing happens on behalf

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Speaker 1: of the citizens in this country. After the break a

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Speaker 1: peak into Hillary Land, Let's talk about how you joined

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Speaker 1: forces in a way, or how you came to work

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Speaker 1: with with Hillary Clinton. You started out as an intern

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Speaker 1: in the White House. In seven months later, you accepted

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Speaker 1: working at it for the First Lady's Office unofficially known

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Speaker 1: this Hillary Land. What did that world look like at

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Speaker 1: the time for you, and what appealed to you about

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Speaker 1: being a part of it. So, first of all, my

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Speaker 1: plan had been to become Christian. I'm on poor, not

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Speaker 1: work in the White House, and certainly not work in

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Speaker 1: the Clinton administration. I you know, I I share in

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Speaker 1: the book how as a fifteen year old watching on

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Speaker 1: TV as Operation Desert Store and was unfolding, I saw

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Speaker 1: this woman who looked like she came from my part

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Speaker 1: of the world, looking like she was this you know,

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Speaker 1: truth teller out there, this intrepid woman, and decided that's

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Speaker 1: what I was going to be. And so when I

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Speaker 1: fell into this internship, a friend of mine told me

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Speaker 1: about interning from Mike McCurry. I applied for the job,

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Speaker 1: assuming I too would be interning for Mike McCurry. I

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Speaker 1: was placed in the First Ladies Policy Office, and in fact,

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Speaker 1: I recount how I was so surprised, like this was

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Speaker 1: not my plan, and I stepped into the hallway and

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Speaker 1: called my mother in with this old brick cell phone, saying, Mom,

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Speaker 1: I didn't get the internship. In the press office. How

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Speaker 1: am I going to become Christian? I'm on poor and

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Speaker 1: she's look, maybe plan it doesn't work out, plant be

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Speaker 1: might you know, just try Plan B. And it turned

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Speaker 1: out to be pretty extraordinary. What I found is that

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Speaker 1: I fell in love with the work. It felt as

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Speaker 1: though it was a purpose driven place. Lots was happening.

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Speaker 1: This was a first lady traveling around the world championing

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Speaker 1: women's rights as human rights. It was a president who was,

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Speaker 1: you know, um overseeing an economy. We were arguable an

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Speaker 1: economy that was doing well. We were arguably the sole

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Speaker 1: superpower in the world back then. It was just a

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Speaker 1: different feeling of hope and possibility and optimism and the

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Speaker 1: very personally, uh, the notion of, you know, the potential

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Speaker 1: piece in the mid least was very exciting. So it

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Speaker 1: felt like a cause and um And once I got hooked,

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Speaker 1: I got hooked, and I was prepared to outwork everybody

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Speaker 1: and do everything, even though I made lots of mistakes

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Speaker 1: along the way. I recount a lot of those stories

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Speaker 1: about losing the first Ladies clothes in the East River

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Speaker 1: when we got off a helicopter, Like I didn't know

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Speaker 1: what I was doing at the time, But boy, was

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Speaker 1: I prepared to do the hard work? And what was

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Speaker 1: it about your relationship with Hillary? I know that Philippe,

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Speaker 1: the aforementioned Philippe Brains described you all as extensions of

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Speaker 1: each other. Um, A, how do you feel about that?

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Speaker 1: And B? And I don't know why I'm doing a

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Speaker 1: lot of a B in this interview, but I am

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Speaker 1: and and B how did that happen? I mean, how

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Speaker 1: did you have such a vulcan mind meld so early on?

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Speaker 1: I think it's right. I try to explain the culture

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Speaker 1: of hillary Land as a place where you had professional support,

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Speaker 1: where the conversations were things like, you know, how can

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Speaker 1: we do this better? How can I help you with

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Speaker 1: their resume? You should talk to my allergist, you know,

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Speaker 1: how is your mother doing? And it was a culture

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Speaker 1: that hillary Land, UM kind of uh just it was

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Speaker 1: the existence in hillary Land, and Hillary Land was all

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Speaker 1: of these things because Hillary Clinton was all of these things.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she really this did come from the top down.

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Speaker 1: It was I believed and I still, um, I still

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Speaker 1: believe this to this day. That I was lucky to

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Speaker 1: work for a woman who always thought there was space

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Speaker 1: for more seats at the table. She is one of

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Speaker 1: those rare leaders, in my opinion, who is not afraid

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Speaker 1: of anyone else's intellect, not afraid that there might be

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Speaker 1: somebody smarter than her at the table learning conversation with her,

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Speaker 1: she welcomed those voices. But more than that, speaking about

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Speaker 1: junior people like me, she saw things in in younger

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Speaker 1: people that I'm not sure we even saw in ourselves.

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Speaker 1: Like I think of what I'm doing right now with you,

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Speaker 1: I'm doing the thing that scares me the most. Like

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Speaker 1: I I I'm terrified of public speaking. I'm terrified of

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Speaker 1: being out in the world. I'm terrified of doing an interview,

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Speaker 1: let alone with somebody of your of your caliber, which

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Speaker 1: is a dream of mine. But I'm doing it. And

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Speaker 1: I believe that this is something that she has helped

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Speaker 1: kind of build and cultivate UM throughout the years in

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Speaker 1: hillary Land. That it's a club, it comes with lifetime membership.

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Speaker 1: There's always going to be there for you. If I

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Speaker 1: call Fleet now, as soon as we hang up, he

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Speaker 1: will answer. You know. Just having that kind of supportive

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Speaker 1: work environment I think is important and also I think

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Speaker 1: pretty special. How much is that this is kind of

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Speaker 1: a weird psychological question Huma, But how much of that

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Speaker 1: is based on mistrust of the outside world and developing

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Speaker 1: almost a cocoon like setting where you feel it's you,

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Speaker 1: this group against the world because there were so many

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Speaker 1: slings and arrows that were directed at you all Um

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Speaker 1: through the years, Hillary in particular you by extension, and

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Speaker 1: really the entire team. And I'm curious if that in

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Speaker 1: some ways made those Daiose bonds even stronger. I think

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Speaker 1: that's a really interesting observation. I had not considered it

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Speaker 1: until this very second, and I think it's true. I

431
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: think this notion of I share stories in the book

432
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 1: of having people in my life who were prepared to

433
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 1: tell me the hard truth, like Philip. Since we're talking

434
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 1: about Philip calling and telling me that the you know,

435
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 1: New York Times is about to report that I was pregnant,

436
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: I mean, and it's and there was nothing we could

437
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 1: do about it because it was news and it would

438
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: be reported. And this, you know, the chapters in the

439
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,360
Speaker 1: book where I talk about you know, being the elephant

440
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 1: in the room, not knowing who to trust. In part

441
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: I think that goes to the point that you just made,

442
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: which is you do become Um sort of surrounded in

443
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: an environment that you feel protected and safe in. Uh,

444
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: and it does make you a little bit wary of

445
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: the outside. Well, I certainly I plead guilty to having

446
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 1: you know that mindset. I don't know that it was

447
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 1: conscious though in the two thousand sixteen campaign that it was.

448
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: It felt like everyone was so cautious and so nervous

449
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 1: and so worried about a misstep. And UM, I could not,

450
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: for the like of me get get Secretary Clinton, I'll say,

451
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 1: in that way, in this context to do an interview

452
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 1: with me. And I'm curious if you think that kind

453
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: of in celerity, if that's a word, UM might have

454
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 1: worked against her during the campaign, because it was everyone

455
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 1: was so so cautious about what she would do and

456
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 1: potential mistakes she might make. Sharing the book during the campaign,

457
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: actually conversations that Jennifer Palm Mary, who was our communications

458
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: are hilarious communications director of campaigns communications director at the time,

459
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: and having these experiences of going out and doing interviews

460
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: and um, and even though she was rolling out a

461
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: healthcare plan or she was rolling out a college plan,

462
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: all the questions seemed to be about emails. As you

463
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: might remember, emails sexy topic in and we absolutely and

464
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: I you know, take even my own responsibility here, absolutely

465
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 1: would sometimes say, you know what, let's let the speech

466
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: speak for itself. Let's let Hillary's healthcare message, you know,

467
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,439
Speaker 1: be what stays out there, and let's not you know,

468
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: add these three interviews or these two interviews. Absolutely we

469
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: did that, and uh, in part because we predicted that

470
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: the you know, the content would It was so hard

471
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: to get outside of the email story for so much

472
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: of that campaign, as you well know, and then you know,

473
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 1: with the FBI kind of the eleventh hour, this breaking news.

474
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: I mean, there was so much incoming from the outside

475
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: and you know, I share the story in the book.

476
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: Even during the convention when Robbie are then campaign manager,

477
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: Robbie Mook says, what we're concerned about, you know, Russian

478
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: you know, a foreign government trying to interfere in this election,

479
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: and and and journalists on TV looking at Robbie like

480
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 1: he has three heads, like are you suggesting? And of

481
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: course it turned out to be true. But in the

482
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: moment we were it was a cauldron of so much stuff,

483
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: you know, being being thrown at us. And it is

484
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: why I did spend a lot of time also talking

485
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 1: about the challenge that sexism and misogyny played. It was.

486
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: We knew constantly that the feedback was it was regular,

487
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,959
Speaker 1: but it was inconsistent. I don't like her jackets longer, shorter,

488
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: put her in T shirts, put her in suits, change

489
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: her hair, and I you couldn't please anybody. And I

490
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 1: shared the story of a Hollywood director who called and

491
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: said he would give us media training, give her media training.

492
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: And I said, who who do you want Hillary to?

493
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 1: Who's her model? And the answer was her husband? Great, Okay,

494
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 1: any other ideas? Barack Obama amazing, also amazing communicator, also

495
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: a man? Is there a woman? And I think in

496
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 1: part because she has been the precedent, she has been

497
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: the model in so many ways, there was no there

498
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: was no way to get with that right. And we

499
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,239
Speaker 1: knew throughout that that was a challenge. Always knew that

500
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 1: that was a challenge. That there are people who could

501
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: not see a woman as commander in chief. So how

502
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: did you? You? You know, how do you power through?

503
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: I write a lot about that and covering Hillary myself

504
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 1: and being in a position to call out sexist language,

505
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 1: and how frustrating it was for me to see just

506
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: buttons upon buttons at the Republican National Convention just uh,

507
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 1: you know, eviscerating Hillary in the most crude, disgusting way,

508
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 1: and you know, nutcrackers and the airport that are in

509
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: Hillary's image and it it was very, very frustrating for me.

510
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 1: And and I would even say to my friends who

511
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: may work, maybe we're not Hillary fans, like why don't

512
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: you like Hillary? And they would say it's not because

513
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: she's a woman. They would give me, you know, a

514
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: host of reasons. But I don't think people even understood

515
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: the role of misogyny and implicit bias and cultural conditioning

516
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 1: had in the way they were perceiving a candidate like

517
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton. M absolutely and in two thousand and eight,

518
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: and I did read that you had shared these stories,

519
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: and you and I shared some very similar stories. Um,

520
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: you know the Tucker Carlson that he could say things

521
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: like she comes on TV and I want to cross

522
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: my legs, or you know, she's a kind of person.

523
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: I think someone else on Fox that who would yell

524
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: at you for not taking out the garbage. Actually I

525
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: think that was Mike Barnacle. It it very well could

526
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: have been. I don't even remember that one, but see,

527
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: I actually feel as though in two thousand and eight we,

528
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: even us women, we did not know how to handle it.

529
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: So the way we handled it is we giggled our

530
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: way through ha ha. We just assumed this was the

531
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: price you had to pay to be in the game.

532
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: And by sixteen it was I would argue, at a

533
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: whole different, you know level. It was attacks from all sides,

534
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: and in part not understanding that some of these stories

535
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: that were just outright fake news and crazy people were

536
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: believed thing that she was dying, that she was sick,

537
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: that she had murdered people, and there were emails with lists,

538
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: and then the nonsense, frankly, was not only believed, it

539
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,959
Speaker 1: was believed by you know people who you and I

540
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: probably might know, I mean, just reasonable, thoughtful, smart people.

541
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: I mean, unless we change the way we consciously and

542
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: subconsciously think, unless we raise my son, who is now

543
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: nine young boys to not fear women's power, to understand

544
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: and respect like, nothing you know, in my opinion, is

545
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: going to change. And Kamala Harris is having sort of

546
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: a difficult press run. I think the press is pretty

547
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: lemming like and everybody seems to be jumping on that

548
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: that bandwagon. But um, you know, do you see some

549
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: parallels of how Kamala has been received with how Hillary

550
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: was received? I do? I do. From the minute I

551
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: that New York Times headline or which I'm actually not

552
00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: even sure if it was the Times with the headline

553
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: and she was on her way to Paris to meet

554
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,479
Speaker 1: with Macron and the headline was in a murky you know,

555
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: nobody understand why she's going, and then the article explains

556
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: exactly why she was going. It is, in my opinion,

557
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,959
Speaker 1: she is having to endure a lot of what Hillary

558
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: had to endure, the you know, just the automatic because

559
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: of her gender, even though she is a smart, accomplished

560
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: she was the first before she was vice president, I'd

561
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: say she did something pretty incredible work as in her

562
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: time both the Senator and Attorney General in California. But

563
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: it's hard, and that's and and and I give her

564
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: and her team credit for getting out there every single day.

565
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: She's got a hard set of issues on her agenda. Boy,

566
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: I mean, thanks a lot giving me the border, President Biden.

567
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: I mean seriously, I mean, that's that's that's tough. And uh, well,

568
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: we can talk, we can, we can talk offline, but

569
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: I have definitely found some similarities. I find it often infuriating,

570
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: and I wish them well. They've they've They've got a

571
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: lot of had a tough job to do. When we

572
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: come back coming to terms with Anthony Weiner, and are

573
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: there parallels between Huma Aberdeen and Monica Lewinsky. You also, obviously, Whuma,

574
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: talk a lot about your marriage to Anthony Weiner, and um,

575
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 1: and I just from a sort of a human to

576
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: human level, to have so much of your personal life

577
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: exposed in this way and having to write about it,

578
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: UM gosh, that must have been daunting, uh, because it's

579
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: clear you still have a on some level, have a

580
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: great deal of respect for Anthony, and you talk about

581
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: that in in the acknowledgements, and I I'm curious what

582
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: it was like to unburden yourself from that really challenging

583
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: period of your life. You know, when the scandal first broke,

584
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: I was not even twelve weeks pregnant, and I opened

585
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 1: the chapter waking up in Buckingham Palace. We didn't just

586
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: live a good life, we lived a perfect life. And

587
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: I um, I was with the man that I was

588
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 1: desperately in love with. He was my first love. He

589
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: was the first man I had ever been with. He

590
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: was my first Valentine state, and so I spent a

591
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: lot of time not understanding as somebody who her whole

592
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: life I've exuded control. I exert so much control in

593
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: my life. To be married to somebody who could not

594
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: control his behavior, I didn't get. It was in the

595
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: you know, the first year or two after you know,

596
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: Anthony had to resign. I thought, when you could just stop?

597
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:53,959
Speaker 1: Of course you just stopped, like one day, and it

598
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: was years of therapy and going to many different therapists.

599
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,959
Speaker 1: Under Ending this behavior as a mental health challenge, as

600
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: a compulsion, and eventually as an addiction is something that

601
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: he could not, you know, get as I learned in

602
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: you Know from our therapist that you know, when you

603
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: are in the throes of addictive behavior, you do things

604
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: and say things that when you are in your normal

605
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: state of mind, you would never even consider. But it

606
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: took me a very long time, Katie, to understand that.

607
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: And because I feel as though this is a connection

608
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 1: I have made with many people, mostly women, but just

609
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: with people out in the world who find themselves in

610
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: the me situation. How do I deal? When do I leave?

611
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: When does it stop? Hurting, you know, when what how

612
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: do I manage with my with my child? And from

613
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: day one as a person who did not have a

614
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: choice about when she lost her father, knowing I was

615
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 1: carrying his child, I really wanted my son to have

616
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: a chance as shot at having a home with two parents.

617
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 1: That was very important to me. And then I just

618
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: tried to fix things. I may there's something women just

619
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: try to do. I tried to fix things at the

620
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: beginning and then realized, I, you know what, I couldn't

621
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 1: and and and and made the right choice for me.

622
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: But he's gonna be in my life forever because of

623
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 1: Jordan's So we have to figure out how to deal

624
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 1: with each other. What is it that makes someone seek

625
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 1: this behavior that is so incredibly risky and can destroy

626
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: your life personally and professionally. You know, I'm always careful

627
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 1: about how I talk about Anthony's you know, mental health

628
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: and his you know, his his behavior, because that's his

629
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: story to tell, and I really try to explain it

630
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 1: and how it affected me. But to me, it's it was,

631
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 1: you know, the minute he started receiving you know, through

632
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 1: all these messages and emails and social media, all this

633
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 1: affirmative encouraging and you know, uh kind of feedback. He

634
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: yearned for it more and I think it just it,

635
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: you know, I I found and as I share in

636
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: the book, it actually got worse over time. His behavior escalated. Actually,

637
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: it's almost like when you are on opioids and you

638
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,240
Speaker 1: need more and more and more to achieve that high

639
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: or feeling of of well being. Exactly right, Katie, exactly right.

640
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: It is. It is if you as you read the story,

641
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: it's that, Yes, how does somebody lose everything their job,

642
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: their family, their reputation and then fall back into the

643
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 1: exact same behavior. That's not behavior one can control, and

644
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: that's not rational, that's not somebody who's in there rational mind.

645
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: But I, as the victim, really I respond to the

646
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: beginning of let's just fix it and having a lot

647
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 1: of anger, and I really resented. And we lost so

648
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: much of our lives, We lost friends. I mean, I

649
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 1: share the story of I was the person who walked

650
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: in the room and people stopped talking. I was asked

651
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: not to go back to a food bank, asked not

652
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: to go to parties because we were distraction, you know,

653
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: reminded people of immoral behavior. All of these things, those

654
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: that does something to you. I mean what it did

655
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: to my sense of self worth and security. I mean,

656
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,240
Speaker 1: in fact, I felt as though after the first scandal

657
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: that Anthony and I ended up in this bunker together,

658
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: we didn't know, you know, where we would go and

659
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 1: be shunned. Um that was that was that was really

660
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 1: hard to live through, I have to say. And even

661
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 1: though we had supportive family and friends, you know, what

662
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 1: do they do? I mean, they're they're so they're so ashamed.

663
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: The behavior was so embarrassing and there's not very much

664
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: they can do aside from just being there. And that's

665
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: that's kind of that is what happened to us. It's strange, Huma,

666
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,720
Speaker 1: hearing you talk. You know, I got to know Bernie

667
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: Lewinsky and his wife barb Uh, you know, shortly after

668
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: the scandal involving Monica Lewinsky, and she had the same experience.

669
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: She was shunned, she was shamed. She tried to volunteer

670
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 1: at a woman's prison in London. They wouldn't even let

671
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: her to volunteer work because they didn't want it to

672
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 1: get bad press. I'm curious if this six variance with

673
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 1: Anthony made you feel more empathetic towards someone like Monica

674
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: Lewinsky and and with the benefit of time passing on

675
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: and a real I think shift in in the way

676
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: we view that whole situation, if if you've given that

677
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,839
Speaker 1: much thought. I do believe that my parents one of

678
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: the things, UM, that was inculcated in me when I

679
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,760
Speaker 1: was very young, with this notion of radical empathy, having

680
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: you know, to be the daughter of a man who

681
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 1: could go into we could live in a monastery for

682
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: a week to try and understand what other people believed

683
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 1: they always you know, made us uh want to feel

684
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 1: what it's like to be in somebody else's shoes, uh.

685
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 1: I And I do think that was a culture in

686
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: hillary Land too. And absolutely, I mean I think that

687
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 1: this notion. I'm glad she's been able to tell her story,

688
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: share her truth, UM is having an experience at this

689
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:00,760
Speaker 1: stage in life. I think we're about the same age

690
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 1: where she can be out in the world and UM

691
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: and and share how painful what she went through was.

692
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it didn't talk about and UM something that

693
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: you know, uh was a huge moment in American history.

694
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: I don't I can only actually can't imagine what it

695
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: must have felt like. To carry well you can, I

696
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: think imagine a little bit, given what you've been through,

697
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: and you didn't feel I mean, it just is you're

698
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: so loyal to Hillary and and so you didn't feel

699
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 1: at all torn. I mean, this was such a complicated thing.

700
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 1: You write a lot about this and about people questioning

701
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: her decisions and how they could be perfectly understandable, and

702
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: you know, all the kind of incorrect theories about you know,

703
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 1: they have an arrangement and it's all about politics and UM.

704
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: But I'm curious if, if, if sort of this reckoning

705
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: about how Monica Lewinsky was treated, if you feel some

706
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,320
Speaker 1: if you feel sort of almost divided loyalty in some ways,

707
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 1: having gone through what you've gone through and and being

708
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:20,399
Speaker 1: someone who does practice practice radical empathy. I uh, when

709
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: I think about that time, I didn't you, as you say.

710
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 1: I did end up writing a lot about it in

711
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: the book, and in part because there are some parts

712
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: of my life that you just can't make up in

713
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: that I my um, all of my professional movement in

714
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: the Clinton White House marked these big moments in that investigation.

715
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 1: I actually write about the first time I was in

716
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: the residence was the day the President Clinton was testifying.

717
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: I write about my very first advance was the morning

718
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 1: the story broke and here I was, um, fresh faced,

719
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: you know, twenty one year old. From my perspective, whatever

720
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 1: I was watching on TV. And maybe this now sounds,

721
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: you know, so crazy. When I was watching all of

722
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: these developments on TV, I it felt like an alternate

723
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: universe because it didn't match what I was experiencing every

724
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 1: day in my work, you know, every day we were

725
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: getting up and doing something. And I the minute the

726
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 1: story broke, when President Clinton told the truth, I felt

727
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 1: as though this wall of protection around my boss, like I,

728
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 1: she had so much stress. I was watching all of

729
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: the incoming So how could I operate? Well, the only way,

730
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 1: and maybe the right word is compartmentalizing, right, is the

731
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: only way I could figure out how to move forward

732
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: was to make Hillary Clinton's life easier, and that was

733
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: to do my job perfectly. I don't think I understood

734
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 1: anything about how she was feeling. Certainly, what Monica was

735
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: going through, I couldn't even comprehend because it was so

736
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 1: far you know, from my understanding. In hindsight, though, um boy,

737
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 1: we as a society did not know how to when

738
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: you see, she had to endure, UM and what she

739
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: went through. And obviously I witnessed what Hillary had to

740
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: go through, the women had to go through. It's um, Yeah,

741
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 1: it's it's gut wrenching. Obviously, I have a lot of

742
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: empathy for um what she had to go through. And

743
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: I'm glad to see. I mean from the outside, I

744
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: don't know where I've never met her. Um. It seems

745
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 1: as though she really is finding her voice and her

746
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: space and her place in this world. And I wish

747
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 1: her well. I really do wish her well. A lot

748
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: of lost years though a lot of last years. Yes,

749
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 1: I want to ask you whom about um, sort of

750
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: the days leading up to which is something you also

751
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 1: write about. You write that you wrote in your journal. Um.

752
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: After this, James Comey announced this investigation to reopen, uh,

753
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 1: the investigation into Hillary's emails. UM. And that was after

754
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: emails between you and Hillary were discovered on Anthony Anthony's

755
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: laptop up and you right, I don't know how I

756
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 1: am going to survive this. Help me, god? Uh you

757
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: know now looking back on it, Huma, I know that

758
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: Hillary has written and spoken about her belief that of

759
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: the strong role this investigation played and in her ultimate loss.

760
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 1: Do you believe she would have won had it not

761
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:27,439
Speaker 1: been for that reopened investigation so close to election day? Yes,

762
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: I do. You know she wrote about it in you know,

763
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 1: in detail, and what happened, and you look at you know,

764
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: in a in a race that was this close, every

765
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: little thing mattered. This was a big thing. In the

766
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,800
Speaker 1: final ten days. You saw the numbers tightening. Uh and

767
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 1: and and actually the second announcement two days before, if

768
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 1: anything got you know, the Trump supporters even more um

769
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 1: uh motivated to go out. And so I think people

770
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: who were trying to decide whether to go and vote

771
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: for her or not didn't look she won with as

772
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 1: you know, well know, three more million more people voted

773
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 1: for her, But those seventy seven thousand people between those

774
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: three states that we needed in these crucial states we lost.

775
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 1: I absolutely believe that, and I have that is something

776
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 1: I do have to carry to my grave, and that

777
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,879
Speaker 1: that that weighs heavily on me. And even in this

778
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: moment of feeling a sense of liberation to share my truth,

779
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 1: that is part of my truth, I do have to

780
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: accept that. And and it's never gonna be easy for

781
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 1: me to accept it. But I do believe it, Yatty,

782
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: I mean, but but do you direct your your anger

783
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: at James Comey because obviously the damage was done, the

784
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: investigation was closed prior to the election day. But I

785
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: remember thinking, oh, oh, this is this is going to

786
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 1: really really hurt. There's already already amongst some voters this

787
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: feeling of distrust for whatever reason, whatever it was rooted in. UM,

788
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: this is going to be like shaking assault shaker into

789
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 1: that wound. And I just felt, Oh, this is gonna

790
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 1: tip people over. And it did. It did, and it

791
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 1: felt it in that moment. It is why as as

792
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: the news came in and we were on that airplane

793
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: and I just couldn't I, you know, as I share

794
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 1: and she shared, I just broke down on the plane

795
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: because it was as much as I had tried to

796
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 1: handle this situation, it was a shock we didn't understand.

797
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: And in part for me, Katie, what was so um

798
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: baffling is I write in the book when Hillary first

799
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,760
Speaker 1: announced for president, sitting in her conference room and going

800
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: through these briefing papers as she was preparing to give

801
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: a speech, and seeing that, um, the FBI had opened

802
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: this investigation and they had asked senior staff members to

803
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 1: provide information, and they mentioned my name in the story,

804
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: but I had not been contacted. And so I am

805
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 1: that person who goes back to her office and I

806
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: call a lawyer friend saying, it is being suggested that

807
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 1: I'm searching for emails of my possession, but no one's caught.

808
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 1: What can I do to help? How do I put

809
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 1: you know, how do I participate? And so the thing

810
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: that you know still doesn't make sense to me is

811
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: why nobody would have picked the phone and called us

812
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: if look we found this, can we look through it?

813
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 1: Called my lawyer, called Anthony's lawyer called We would of

814
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 1: course cooperated. And to now know that there were other

815
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 1: investigations going on that they chose about other people that

816
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 1: they chose not to make public. Donald Trump, Donald Trump,

817
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 1: thank you very much, because they didn't want to affect anything.

818
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: To now say, well, oh, we assumed she was gonna

819
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: win and this, you know, needed to be That's quite

820
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 1: that's quite an assumption to make. And that ever run

821
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 1: into Jim Comey, never run into him, never had a

822
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: conversation with him. I've never had a Hillary not that

823
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: I am aware of. No, she hasn't. I would know

824
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: I would know. No, No, she hasn't. She hasn't seen

825
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:07,359
Speaker 1: him since then, And I've actually been asked. People have said,

826
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: we heard that they tried to reach out. He tried

827
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: to reach out. And I know the short answer is

828
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: I will never understand, Katie, because I do believe it

829
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: changed the course of American history. You in your acknowledgements,

830
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 1: as I mentioned right, my son Jordan's saying is my

831
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,240
Speaker 1: reason for living, the reason there will always be laughter

832
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,919
Speaker 1: and joy, hope and promise and above all love. I've

833
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 1: had so many words for Anthony Weener. If you have

834
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,879
Speaker 1: read the book, you know many of them. In the end, though,

835
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: I want to thank Anthony for two things. First and

836
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: foremost for our extraordinary son, and second for giving me

837
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 1: an experience where I felt like I was the most

838
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 1: special person in any room. Perhaps because our moment of

839
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 1: total bliss was so fleeting, it was all the more precious.

840
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of forgiveness in your heart for Anthony.

841
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:04,439
Speaker 1: Do you think you would ever reconcile or has that

842
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: train left the station? As my mom would have said

843
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 1: that your mother has correct the train left the station

844
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 1: a long time ago. But I think and in um

845
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: when people say, do you regret, I wouldn't have my son,

846
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: who was the most important thing, and he gave that

847
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: to me, and so it's hard not to feel gratitude

848
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 1: for that. And I know what it is life. I

849
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 1: have not had a lot of love in my life

850
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 1: in the in the romantic sense, um, but I had

851
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 1: that with him, and it was it was pretty special

852
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: and and I felt very special, and so I wanted

853
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that. And He's not perfect, but he has

854
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: tried his own way to be a good parent at present,

855
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 1: very a present parent, and so I did feel as

856
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 1: though I should acknowledge him, and I did well whom

857
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 1: I Your book is both and New York Times bestseller.

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Speaker 1: Congratulations on that, and uh, and I really enjoyed talking

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Speaker 1: to you as always. I don't think we've ever talk

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Speaker 1: this much, even though I've known you for probably what

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Speaker 1: twenty five years at this point years. I'm so happy

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Speaker 1: to talk to you. Thank you for having me. I've

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00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 1: as I think you know, I'm a big admirer reviewers

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00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 1: for a long time, and so I'm I'm thrilled and

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Speaker 1: thrilled to have been on the best seller list along

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00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,839
Speaker 1: with you, UH, and to read your incredible book and

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Speaker 1: to be able to share my story the same time

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Speaker 1: you're sharing yours, and so happy and hope we get

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Speaker 1: together for coffee or dinner or lunch. I would really

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00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 1: like that very much. Definitely call me will make it happen.

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Speaker 1: A huge thank you to Huma Aberdeen for spending time

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Speaker 1: with me. Her New York Times bestselling memoir is called

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00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 1: Both and So go check it out. Next Question with

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Speaker 1: Katie Kurik is a production of My Heart Media and

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00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 1: Katie Kurk Media. The executive producers Army, Katie Kuric, and

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00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen, Associate producer

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00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 1: Derek Clements, Adriana Fasio, and Emily Pinto. The show is

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00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: edited and mixed by Derrek Clements. For more information about

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Speaker 1: today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter,

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00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: wake Up Call, go to Katie currect dot com. You

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00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 1: can also find me at Katie Currect on Instagram and

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00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 1: all my social media channels. For more podcasts from I

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00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast,

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00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,240
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.