1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so 3 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: much for joining us. Let's hear a shout out for 4 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: the Man, the Myth, the legend, our guest super producer, 5 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,919 Speaker 1: Ben the Sleeping Dog Hacket. And for the record, we 6 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: did ask Ben in advance what nickname he wanted, and 7 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: that that was the name that you wanted us to 8 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: give you, Right, Ben, that's me baby, Okay, So that's 9 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: the that's the Sleeping Dog himself. I am Ben Bullet. 10 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: My brother in podcast Crime. Noel Brown is on an 11 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: adventure but will be returning soon. In the meantime, we 12 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 1: are super excited to have a bit of a saucy 13 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: exploration through Ridiculous History. Through a part of history, a 14 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: phenomenon the waxes and wanes pops up in and out 15 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 1: of the news over the centuries. It's the concept of 16 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: the sex scandal. So parents listening with kiddos in the 17 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: crowd be aware that this might get a little more 18 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 1: PG thirteen than normal. But this is despite the way 19 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: we're beginning the show. This is not going to be 20 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: a monologue. You don't have to hear my weird opinions 21 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: on this the whole time. We are instead joined today 22 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: by the fantastic journalist Picture your favorite literary magazine, your 23 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: favorite publication. This man is written for it, along with 24 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: a bevy of books about this and many other subjects 25 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: the author have turned on the author of sex, weird 26 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: Opedia and so much more. Joined us and welcoming Ross 27 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: Benish to the show. Ross dude, thank you for coming 28 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: on today. 29 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 2: I can't wait to share my weird opinions with you guys. 30 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: No, now, Ross, we were talking a bit off air 31 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: you been and myself and you have. You have been 32 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: such a prolific journalist and author and researcher. You have, 33 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: as some people may have just heard from that description, 34 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: you have more than one book dealing with some strange 35 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: history about sex. So could you tell us, first off 36 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: a little bit about how you got started as a 37 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: writer and particularly what fascinated you about what we call 38 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: sex scandals. 39 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, my books are just fun things. 40 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 2: I love so Nebraska politics, nineties pop culture, and sex. 41 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 2: Gotta have that triumviran there. And the way I got 42 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 2: started is after college, I didn't know what the hell 43 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 2: I wanted to do with my life. But I knew 44 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: I wanted to write a non fiction book in the 45 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 2: vein of freakonomics. So I started writing these essays and 46 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 2: I noticed a lot of them had to deal with sex, 47 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 2: which you know, I don't know what that says about me, 48 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 2: but whatever, And I set out to get a literary 49 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 2: agent to kind of write like a freakonomics of sex 50 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 2: sort of type book, and then to get published, I 51 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 2: knew I needed to have a lot of byline. So 52 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 2: then I started freelancing and interning at like Esquire and 53 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 2: you know, Mental Floss and Slate and all these places, 54 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 2: and that helped me get that first book. And then 55 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 2: after that first book, you know, I was able to 56 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 2: get more freelance pieces and more books. But the first 57 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 2: two books I wrote of my four were about the 58 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 2: strange history of sex and the way that it influences 59 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 2: our lives in strange and unpredictable ways. I've branched onto 60 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 2: the topics since then, but that was the one that 61 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 2: kind of got my career started. 62 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:09,119 Speaker 1: Mmmm yeah, And this is this is a fascinating thing 63 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: from a even from just a publishing perspective. Without talking 64 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: too much about the business. I can clearly hear a 65 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 1: publisher and an agent, or I can see them in 66 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 1: my mind look at in each other and saying at 67 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: the same time, sex sales. You know, you know my 68 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: Tennessee came out. But yeah, sex Cells. I should have said. 69 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 2: It's funny you said that because they wanted to title 70 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 2: the book sex Cells. But I thought a lot to 71 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 2: not have that be the title, because I thought that 72 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 2: would have been misleading. 73 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's weird how you have to if you're 74 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: in those kind of situations. This can happen with musicians 75 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: and albums. It's as well. It's weird how you have 76 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: to fight the powers that be sometimes over something as 77 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: small as a title. You know, I always before we 78 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 1: made a book for one of the other shows, we 79 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: do stuff they'll want you to know. I had just 80 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: assumed that the writers get to make the titles. I 81 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 1: didn't know how many strange phone calls would have to 82 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: transpire about that. So I will say the books themselves, 83 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: beyond the titles sex Weirdipedia, and Turned On are oh 84 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: with a forward everybody by our good friend aj Bahamas 85 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: Jacobsen turned On, These books are far more than the 86 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: title would suggest. I mean that as a tremendous compliment 87 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: because turned on. Maybe we start there as that's the 88 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: most recent work in this MILLU can you tell us 89 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 1: what we mean when we say investigation into how sex 90 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: has shaped our world? 91 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, so what I wanted to title the book was 92 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 2: Invisible hand Jobs, and it was all about how sex 93 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 2: will guide our economies and our religion and our technology 94 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 2: in ways that aren't always appreciated. You know. One example 95 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 2: would be the influence that porn has had on Internet technology, 96 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 2: you know, like cookies and web browsing and streaming, e commerce. 97 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 2: A lot of that was started by pornographers before web 98 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 2: giants like Amazon and Google took it forward. 99 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: You know. 100 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 2: Another thing that I look at in the book is 101 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 2: how governments can influence birth rates and how that can 102 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 2: actually ultimately influence your economy, you know, if you want 103 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 2: to have young, productive workers and not have an aging workforce. 104 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 2: The government across the world, government across the world have 105 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 2: tried a lot of weird things to try to incentivize 106 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: people to have more kids, or in China's case, to 107 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 2: have less kids. You know, people don't think of sexuality 108 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 2: as a function a GDP, but you know, it kind 109 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 2: of is when you think about birth rates and what 110 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 2: that means for a working having a you know, young 111 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 2: workforce that can sustain and early base. Yeah. 112 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, what's what's the old rule of thumb, the replacement 113 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: rate of two point one kids. Yeah, and we see that, 114 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: we do see immediate, well, mid future, mid horizon consequences 115 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: of that. They can be dire, especially for talking about 116 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: you know, Japan or South Korea's birth rate. But I 117 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: love that you're bringing up the case of China because 118 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: that very much that pendulum swung further than they wanted 119 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: and I don't know if they really. 120 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then they relaxed it so you could have 121 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: two kids. But when you were so restrictive for so long, 122 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 2: it's hard to encourage the behavior to start doing the 123 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 2: opposite of what you force people to do for you know, 124 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: a generation. And that's that really hinders the impact of 125 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 2: China's future growth. But you know, the investigations. The way 126 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 2: I would put it is, I was on a show 127 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 2: with Stephen Dubner of Economics after this book came out, 128 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 2: and he said, this sounds like this is the least 129 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 2: sexy book about sex ever written. That's it probably won't 130 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 2: actually turn you on, you all you'll learn things about like, 131 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 2: you know, the economy and religion and stuff. 132 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: And that's you know, we're all big fans of freakonomics, 133 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: so that's a that's a pretty cool compliment. 134 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 2: For that complimentservation, it was an observation. 135 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: One thing that I think, I mean, it's an astute 136 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 1: observation in that you're not writing just a bunch of 137 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: purple prose. This is very highly researched. This is uh, 138 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: this is spinning out and gaming through consequences and things 139 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: that are you could sometimes call anywhere from humorous anecdotes 140 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: to parables to cautionary tales such as the case of China. 141 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: One thing that often comes up when people are talking 142 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: about Turned On is going to be a story that 143 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: I was not aware of, which is well, I was 144 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: lightly aware of this the original invention of the humble vibrator. 145 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: It's an origin story, folks were an audio show. But 146 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: you should just see the solemn way that Ross nodded 147 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: on this one. So I'm sure you get this question 148 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: pretty often, but could you tell us a little bit 149 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: about the provenance or the origin story of this I 150 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: guess sexual stimulation device. 151 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 2: No one's asked me about the vibrator and sometimes so 152 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 2: this is a refreshing to go through this. And back 153 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 2: in Victorian days, women were obviously well everyone was, you know, 154 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 2: told to not masturbate. Your sexuality was very repressed and 155 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 2: women were diagnosed with this disease which we now know 156 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 2: is a bogus disease called hysteria. So you know, it's 157 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 2: a really a sexist set of symptoms that would lead 158 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 2: a doctor at the time to say, oh, this woman's hysterical, 159 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 2: she needs to be treated for that. When one way 160 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 2: they would treat that is to sexually relieve the woman. 161 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 2: So instead of her doing it herself, she would have 162 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 2: a doctor manually massage her private parts for you know, 163 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 2: half hour, sometimes an hour. It would take a long 164 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 2: time for him to actually get these women off to 165 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 2: relieve their hysteria. So these guys set out about inventing 166 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 2: a tool that would help them do this quicker so 167 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 2: they could see more patients, and that contributed to the 168 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 2: birth of the vibrator. The first vibrator looks nothing like 169 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 2: something that you would buy Adam and Eve today, but 170 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 2: that's the origin goes back to sexual repression in a 171 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 2: medical device. So you know, they set off a revolution 172 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:06,959 Speaker 2: and self stimulation through indirect way of forcing women to 173 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 2: come to their office to use this device. 174 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: That's kind of creepy. It's very strange on the on 175 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: the doctor's side. And then also the fact that there 176 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: was clearly a an innovator in the field or some 177 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: guy have in the conversation and just saying, oh, heavens, 178 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: we simply have too many patients. We don't have enough time. 179 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 2: Honest on their hands would get tired because if you're 180 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 2: if you're having to you know, get if you if 181 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 2: you're having a well not it's not masturbate. I guess 182 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 2: you would be assisting these women. But if you're doing 183 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 2: patient after patient and this isn't like an intimate setting, 184 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 2: you know, it's it's it's manual work for them. 185 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:47,359 Speaker 1: It's clinical. 186 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, clinical, that's a good way to put it. 187 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: And uh so they're worried about carpal wrist tunnel syndrome 188 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: and even if they didn't have the phrase at that time, 189 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: So that I think is a good way for us 190 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: to sort of open that conversation on the unexpected tremendous 191 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: historical shifts that have occurred because of because of things 192 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: that we often in America is still kind of puritanical society. 193 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: Things that we often dismiss is like, oh, that's a naughty, 194 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: naughty thing dimension. So I want us to move to 195 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: another example. This is one that I was completely unaware 196 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: of until I started checking out turned on Ross. Is 197 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: it true that the US military played a role in 198 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 1: making San Francisco, as you as you call it a 199 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: gay mecca? 200 00:12:55,200 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, the military, through its suppression of homosexuality, inadvertently helped 201 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 2: create the modern gay identity. So in San Francisco's case, 202 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 2: the way it did that is in World War Two, 203 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 2: if you were suspected to be gay, they would give 204 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 2: you a blue discharge and you could not serve in 205 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 2: the military. And these men were discharged proportionally, disproportionally in 206 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 2: port cities like New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco. When 207 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 2: those guys were discharged, they were publicly outed at a 208 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 2: time when people weren't out publicly. So if you're coming 209 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 2: from a small town in the Midwest, it's hard for 210 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 2: you to go home with your blue discharge until your family. 211 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 2: I can't go serve in war because they suspect them gay. 212 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 2: So a lot of these guys stayed where they were discharged, 213 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 2: and they formed their own neighborhoods and societies, And one 214 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 2: of those is the Castro in San Francisco, which exploded 215 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: in population around the time of World War Two due 216 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 2: to all these gay men deciding to live there. 217 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 1: Oh man, So in one way, that's inspiring, you know, 218 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: the bravery of these people who said, look, I am 219 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: going to start my life anew right because I can't 220 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: go home. But in another way, it's absolutely horrifying. That 221 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: feels like a what we would call a violation of 222 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: human rights at this point because it's around this time. 223 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: Wouldn't it have been in some cases, almost like a 224 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: death sentence to send somebody back to rural America where 225 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: maybe the laws a little corrupt and so on. 226 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean it definitely leads to a lifetime 227 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 2: ostracization if they were home, And yeah, I mean it's 228 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 2: not out of the question to think that they would 229 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 2: have been targeted in that way. So these people are 230 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 2: making the best of their situation. But yeah, it's it's 231 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 2: a terrible situation by modern standards. But you know, they 232 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 2: didn't let the the oppression get the best of them. 233 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 2: They were able to use that as fuel to create 234 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 2: their own culture, which is beautiful in its own way, 235 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 2: even if there was a, you know, an unjust struggle 236 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 2: behind it. 237 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear what you're saying there. And it's also 238 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: I think, especially here in the West and in the 239 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: US in particular, there has always been this struggle between 240 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: sexuality and not even spirituality more like religious dogma. Yeah. 241 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: I think a lot of us are surprised when we 242 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: learn later in history class or when we check out 243 00:15:55,200 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: a good book that despite being known as very uptight folks, 244 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: the Puritans and the Victorians had these practices that would 245 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: seem downright unacceptable. You know here in the modern day. 246 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, like for Puritanical society or Puritan society, I 247 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: should say, in particular, I'm thinking of the fact that 248 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: there were so many strict laws against who could do 249 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: what to whom when, or who could do what with 250 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: whom when. That I was surprised to learn. Yeah, a 251 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: lot of these big families lived in essentially one or 252 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: two room houses and structures, and they the parents did 253 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: sleep together while the kids were in the room. You 254 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: know what I mean. That's the law and order SVU stuff. 255 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: So could you tell us through your research historically, What 256 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: are some of the what are some of the strangest 257 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: ways that we haven't discussed yet that sex has shaped 258 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: society and history. Like, are there any things that you 259 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: or any events or phenomenon that you came up with 260 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 1: in your research that you later think about today? 261 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 2: Right? I think about this one more than I should. 262 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 2: So the first Canon of the Nicea Council. So this 263 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 2: is like, you know, the first huge council of the 264 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 2: modern Catholic Church where we get the Nicea and Creed. 265 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 2: If you go back and read, you will find that 266 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 2: the first canon is about making it illegal for men 267 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 2: who castrate themselves to become priests. So there were so 268 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 2: many guys back then that were castrating themselves to make 269 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 2: themselves unix for the sake of heaven. You know, like Origin, 270 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 2: he's one of the church fathers. He castrated himself. That 271 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 2: they had to put in a lot to say, like 272 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 2: if you're gonna do that, you know, we're gonna we're 273 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 2: gonna like restrict how high you can rise up. We 274 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 2: got to do something about all these guys cash straight 275 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 2: in themselves. 276 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 1: Oh man, that's frightening. And enough time has enough time 277 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: passed that I could say that's darkly hilarious. 278 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, totally. I think enough time passed one thousand 279 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 2: years ago, or not a thousand, but five hundred years ago. 280 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: You could say that, Okay, good, good, don't come for 281 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: us remaining members of that council that I see. It's 282 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: just you nailed something that I think always astonishes me 283 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: about those kind of laws. When we see them out 284 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 1: of context, we have to realize there's a story behind them, 285 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: like there was a this is totally unrelated, but this 286 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: is a good good example. Imagine if you've ever walked 287 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: into a store, maybe a restaurant, a mom and pop place, 288 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: or just like a little store on your main street 289 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: and they have the conventional sign, you know, no shirt, 290 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: no shoes, no service, But every so often they'll they'll 291 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 1: tack on another weird specific rule, you know what I mean. 292 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: I was in uh, I was in a place where 293 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: it said it had the no shirt, no shoes, no 294 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: no service thing, and then it also had a sign 295 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: that said no angry dogs. 296 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 2: Oh and I've seen I've seen like no animals. Yeah, 297 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 2: I've seen dogs specific though, Yeah, like. 298 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: What happened? Is there just some real and please beat 299 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: me here, bed is there just some real dog named 300 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,479 Speaker 1: Buster who was terrorizing the gas station? And soone was like, 301 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: we need a sign to stop this lunatic. So those 302 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: that's fascinating because it reminds us of all the you've 303 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: seen these before, to russ all the uh historical uh 304 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: compilate all the compilations of local historical laws that might 305 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: deal with odd, very odd specific circumstances like no drafts 306 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: in cars, it's gone too far. You know, Are there 307 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 1: any weird other weird specific sex laws that you ran across. 308 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 2: There's weird laws on the books still to this day 309 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 2: in this country. So in Nebraska, this one actually was repealed, 310 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 2: but not for decades. They adopted a lot in the 311 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 2: twenties to cash straight sex offenders, and then it took 312 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 2: them a long time to get that off the books. 313 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 2: And there's like other ones that are even more bizarre 314 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 2: that still are technically there but not enforceable. 315 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, like the old I remember reading stuff like 316 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: I think it was Michigan. I want to say, where 317 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: some part of Michigan had passed the law that said 318 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: husband legally owns his wife's hair or something like that. 319 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 2: I don't think about all those states that still have sodomy. 320 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: Laws on the books. 321 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, like it's completely unenforceable, but they fight tooth and 322 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 2: nail to keep them on there. That is a little 323 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 2: more recent history. But if those laws in the books, 324 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 2: that's say, one hundred years from now, someone will be like, well, 325 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 2: that's a weird historic artifact. Why why is it illegal 326 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 2: in Georgia? 327 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, they'll be like us with say, like 328 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: how many guys were casually yeah that this this became 329 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: an item on the agenda, right, and they were like, 330 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: we cannot break for lunch until we figured this out. 331 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 2: I would love to see the meeting minutes of the 332 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 2: one where they passed those cannons. 333 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, and especially you know to that point. I'd 334 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: love to see how how the vote shakes out. I'd 335 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: love to see, you know, if there's how you know 336 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: how there's always like nine out of ten dentists recommend 337 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 1: this toothpaste. You have to wonder who that tenth dentist is. So, 338 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 1: was there a guy in Icia who was like, I 339 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 1: don't know, guys, no, let's really let's think this through. Okay, 340 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: we're reacting to the headline. 341 00:21:57,960 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 2: And maybe it was a five to four vote, like 342 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 2: a scout this case, and it came down to the wire. 343 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 2: I don't know, that's that's all lost the history. 344 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all lost to history. That is still just 345 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: bizarre because it I think every every story we're telling 346 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: here in this in this kind of grab bag exploration, 347 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: it's just further further supporting your thesis that sex is 348 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: shaping uh, these what we call human society in all 349 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 1: these strange ways. It's still those possible ways. Yeah, Like 350 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: two thousand. 351 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 2: And nine, lawmakers in Egypt wanted to ban fake hymen's. 352 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 2: So it's like these like virginity kits, so you know, 353 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 2: you can make it seem like you haven't lost your 354 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 2: virginity if you have. So like they would import you know, 355 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 2: a hymen that is usually an animal drive product and 356 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 2: uh be used on the on the wedding day, and 357 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 2: they the fact that people have to use those, that's 358 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 2: that's crazy right there, that there's that there's a market 359 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 2: for that product, and then there's enough of a market 360 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 2: that there's a push to legislate it. 361 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Yeah, because again somebody threw up their 362 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: hands and said, well, it's up with all these counterfeit hymens. Yeah, 363 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: that's that's uh, that's terrifying and it shows us too. 364 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 1: You know, many of these things we've mentioned, especially even now, 365 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: but especially as you go back further in history, a 366 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 1: lot of them were indicative of society's attempts to control. 367 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 2: Women, right, Yeah, I mean the history of vibrator. Even 368 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 2: even if it had the unintended consequence of giving them 369 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 2: a great masturbation device, the origin is controlling women's sexuality. 370 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I yeah. I think there's an important lesson there, 371 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: and it's something that we we as a society, would 372 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: ignore to our peril. There's another one I wanted to 373 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: ask you about. Oh, this is where we want to shift. Okay, 374 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: now we're getting to Now we're getting to some even 375 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: more juicy stuff. Fellow ridiculous historians, Sex scandals. Ben, Can 376 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: I get like a sex scandal? Q? I leave it 377 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: up to your interpretation. Yeah, I got you perfect, The 378 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: Sleeping Dog, ladies and gentlemen. All right, So sex scandals again, 379 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: we said it at the top. This is a little 380 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: more Pg. Thirteen than some of our previous episodes. Ross, 381 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 1: you and I were catching up off air weather Palell 382 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: the Sleeping Dog and I asked you about sex scandals. 383 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: There's one that surprised you, and it surprised me. It 384 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: happened recently. We'll save that and get to it in 385 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: a moment. So first, can you tell us I know 386 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: this is very basic softball stuff, but can you tell 387 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: us what a sex scandal is, how you would define it. 388 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 2: I mean, the way I would define it is a 389 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 2: person of public interest, often a politician, but it could 390 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 2: be a celebrity has sex in a way that is 391 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,439 Speaker 2: disapproved by their society at the time, and it blows 392 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 2: up in such a way that it threatens to derail 393 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 2: their career or reputation. You know, the most probably the 394 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 2: biggest one in our lifetime, would be like Clinton and 395 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 2: Monica Lensky and various other women Clinton had run ins with. 396 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 1: Okay that I think we can only agree with that 397 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: definition because it makes an important distinction between sexual activities 398 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: or proclivities in the past that were either normalized or 399 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:51,440 Speaker 1: they were treated as just part and parcel of this 400 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: you know, large time or larger than life, religious leader 401 00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 1: or royal member of political functionary. Because I'm thinking about, 402 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 1: you know the fact that there would be numerous acts 403 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: of adultery right, or even nefarious sexual activity on the 404 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: part of the aristocracy or various heads of royal families, 405 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: and those things didn't always result in a scandal. So 406 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: it sounds like the real operative difference, the umammy of 407 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: what makes something a scandal is when it endangers the 408 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: person's career. 409 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, because what's a scandal in one generation may not 410 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 2: be a scandal in another generation. And part of the 411 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 2: way our perception is shaped on says scandals, is how 412 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 2: press operates at the time. So like for the in 413 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 2: the US, between like Jefferson and Clinton, there wasn't a 414 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 2: lot of reporting on it, or maybybe a little bit later. Definitely, 415 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 2: between like Eisenhower and Clinton, there's not a lot of 416 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 2: reporting of the sex scandal. So what presidents do in 417 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 2: their private lives is kind of just washing the rug 418 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 2: kept from the public. The same type of behavior could 419 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 2: be engaged though, but not lead to a scandal in 420 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 2: the way that it would by the nineties, or the 421 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 2: way that it would in America's early history when Alexander 422 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 2: Hamilton and Jefferson were caught in scandals. So like, it's 423 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 2: really it's not just the behavior of the sex itself, 424 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: it's like another huge part of it is how it's 425 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 2: that information is spread and how it's interpreted by the 426 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 2: people of that time. 427 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: So it's the it's really it's not the actor acts themselves, 428 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: it's the context in which they occur. 429 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, and what's permissible in one era isn't permissible in another, 430 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,479 Speaker 2: And it can be kind of arbitrary. It's not like 431 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 2: things just get more progressive more permissive over time. It 432 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:01,719 Speaker 2: waxes and wanes and you know, well, I think what 433 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 2: you find though, is, especially in the US, presidents have 434 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 2: had elicit affairs in the entire country's history. Those were 435 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 2: just not public or blown into a scandal for like 436 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 2: one hundred year period. 437 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, it's sometimes this is a true story. 438 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: It takes a it takes an up and coming grad 439 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: student in history right to say, I really need my 440 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,400 Speaker 1: thesis paper. What do I know about what's the most 441 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: obscure president and what did they do? Okay, this is 442 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: the way that the research can move forward. And I 443 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: think you're making some tremendous points there. With that being said, 444 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: now that we've eaten our proverbial vegetables of pointing out 445 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: the important stuff, the stuff that will be on the 446 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: test later. Let's get to it. Man, Can you tell 447 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: us about that really strange sex scandal from recent history 448 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: that stayed with you? 449 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 2: Well, so if you're a listener and you lived in 450 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 2: Michigan about ten years ago, you probably know where I'm 451 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 2: going with this. And State Representative Todd Curser was a 452 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 2: Republican family values type candidate in Michigan and the Michigan 453 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 2: House Representatives. He was having an affair with Cindy Gamrat, 454 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 2: who was also a House rep. Now, they both were 455 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 2: married to each other, so this would have been a scandal. 456 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 2: But rather than just come out with that information or 457 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 2: let their relationship be known, Curser asked his staff to 458 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 2: spread the rumor that he was seeking male prostitutes because 459 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 2: he thought that if they spread that rumor, it would 460 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 2: create a distraction from his affair that he was actually having. 461 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 2: But instead everyone found out that he was I was 462 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 2: having that affair and that he was instructing people to 463 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 2: lie about seeking male prostitutes, and he ended up getting 464 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 2: expelled from the house. But it's very strange for like 465 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 2: a family values candidate to spread the idea that they're 466 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 2: seeking sex with a prostitute when they aren't even doing that. Yeah, yeah, 467 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 2: like that's that's the worst of the two. 468 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: Right right, that's that's a very unorthodox spin doctor approach 469 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: or pr approach. You know, we were when when you 470 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: first brought this up, and I had I think I 471 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: had never heard of this because, like a lot of people, 472 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: when you get increasingly inundated by news in the age 473 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: of ubiquitous information, it's so easy to just skim past 474 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: the headline, especially with political scandal these days. Uh, but 475 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: when you've yeah, when when you first told me about this, 476 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: I remember immediately thinking, game, what a dumb idea? Like 477 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: how did this guy get this far? You know what 478 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: I mean? Uh? Or how how one how did you 479 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: get that far? Or two? How desperate do you have 480 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: to be to mistake that for a good strategy? You 481 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: know what? 482 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 2: His chief of staff needed to step in there and say, 483 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 2: you know what, we're not gonna tell everyone you're you're 484 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 2: having sex with male prostitutes. 485 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: Right right, And he wasn't. 486 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 2: He wasn't. Yeah, Okay, it's a weird thing to want 487 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 2: people to think. 488 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 1: You're doing yeah with the phantom prostitute. That's that's so 489 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: bizarre because that also, you know, what that also touches 490 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: on something that really stood out in your most recent work, 491 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: and we haven't really talked too much about it yet, 492 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: but I believe I believe we should. Sex has a 493 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: huge influen wents on crime, right, and you dive into 494 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: some pretty fantastic research on the unexpected ways that not 495 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: just laws about sex like sodomy laws as you mentioned, 496 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: but social expectations about sex can influence rates of very 497 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: nasty things like assault or even homicide. What what's the 498 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: what's this connection? I sound like Andy Rooney of old Well, 499 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,719 Speaker 1: what's the deal with But what's this connection between the 500 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: practice of polygamy and higher rates of crime? 501 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 2: Okay? Oh? Basically the idea and this is this is 502 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 2: some of the theory on how monogamy was instituted as 503 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 2: a social construct was that if more men are married, 504 00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 2: they will commit less crimes collectively. So like if you 505 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 2: if a man gets married, he becomes domesticated, he ends 506 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 2: up having children, that man is less likely to commit 507 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 2: a violent crime than if he's unattached. So if you 508 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 2: you know, if you go from polygamy, if you go 509 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 2: from a society that's polygamous to a society that's monogamy, 510 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 2: more men will marry because most polygamist societies are polygynists, 511 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 2: they're not polyandris. There they are where you know, a 512 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 2: man has multiple wives. It's it's it's much rarer to 513 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 2: see a society where women have multiple husbands. And in 514 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 2: the societies where men can have multiple wives, it's usually 515 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 2: like the rich and successful and descendants of heirs that 516 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 2: have the most wives. It's often the man with the 517 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 2: most resources tends to have most women. So we know, 518 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 2: where there's a where there's a society where it's polygamists, 519 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 2: you have just way more men without mates, and they 520 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 2: have less incentive to not commit these crimes because they 521 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 2: don't have the attachments and they're not domesticated, you know, 522 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 2: in a way that a married man is. So there 523 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 2: are theories by some historians that monogamy began to be 524 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 2: instituted not as a religious practice, but as a political 525 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 2: one because these you know, leaders of ancient Rome, they 526 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 2: they wanted to quell disrest. They they didn't want to 527 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 2: have you know, all these single, violent men out there, 528 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,880 Speaker 2: so they would you know, implement this rule. And they 529 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 2: would also use it as like almost like a recruiting 530 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 2: tactic in you know, military, like our society. You know 531 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 2: it's monogamous. You're you're more likely to have a mate 532 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 2: than you know elsewhere where, your your chances are are slim. Now, 533 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 2: you know, some of this is a speculation, and monogamy 534 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 2: legally doesn't mean monogamy in practice. There's still a lot 535 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 2: of extra marital activity happening. 536 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, and then that would lead to the crime 537 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: of I just think it's a fun word to say bigamy, 538 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 1: which is, you know, double tapping on a marriage, right, 539 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: having a couple of marriages and maybe not telling the 540 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 1: partners from those separate, separate events of matrimony. 541 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 2: Well, there's also the idea that you're competing for more 542 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,839 Speaker 2: women too, if you're in a society that's polygamous. 543 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I see, yeah, I see what you're saying. 544 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 2: So the men can become more violent with each other 545 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 2: because Batman wants to have his third wife or whatever. 546 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: And there's this Yeah. I appreciate too how we're being 547 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 1: diplomatic and careful or cautious with the the implications, but 548 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: they're definitely out there. I mean, you freezed it perfectly. 549 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: But then also, I can't be the only person in 550 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: the audience tonight who immediately thought, yeah, when guys get married, 551 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,879 Speaker 1: they have more to lose. They called out a little bit. 552 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 1: They're more integrated into society, like, Oh, I want to 553 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 1: rob the bank, but I've got to pick up Drayton 554 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 1: at three. 555 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 2: So you're also tired. Oh yeah, yeah, I don't want 556 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 2: to assault anyone. I need a nap. 557 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: If I can say it on air, big congratulations to you, 558 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: Russ because you have just welcomed your second child unto 559 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 1: the planet, right and and so you're probably a little 560 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: too tired to get back into the robbing banks hustle. 561 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 2: Oh, definitely too tired. You know, if I was a 562 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 2: single guy with no kids, I don't know who I'd 563 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 2: be assaulting. But now doing the dishes before I go 564 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 2: to sleep is my goal today. 565 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's the herculean task of the day. But 566 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 1: I do think it is It is something that we 567 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,720 Speaker 1: have to examine. Just historically, there's no shortage of cases 568 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: or arguments to be made. But we also have to 569 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: be cautious with the exploration of this idea in these implications, 570 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 1: because they can be used for nefarious purposes, for racism, right, 571 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:16,840 Speaker 1: for religious prejudice, and so on. When we're talking about religion, 572 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 1: you also see you trace a lot of I guess 573 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: we call it inter religious implications or disagreements about sax 574 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 1: and society. And I was very surprised to learn, not 575 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: being a practitioner of Islam myself, I was very surprised 576 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 1: to learn things like the you know, you mentioned the 577 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: hymen law, but then also the idea of reproduction and 578 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: infertility you know, tied to I guess surrogate parents or 579 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: artificial insemination. 580 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you see these weird instances where religious pluralism 581 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:05,839 Speaker 2: can actually help people overcome an obstacle from their own religion. Now, 582 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 2: I gotta take my time here and remember what the 583 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:14,720 Speaker 2: difference between Sunni and Shia. It's been a while, so basically, 584 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 2: in the there's a few Middle Eastern countries where they 585 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:24,880 Speaker 2: Sunni and Shia are relying on each other for reproductive assistance. 586 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 2: So for the Sunni side, something like artificial insemination, you 587 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 2: have to be married and you're only allowed to use 588 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 2: your own eggs and sperm, and so it's more restrictive. 589 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 2: But in Shia there tends to be more lenience on 590 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:52,759 Speaker 2: using other people's eggs and sperm for reproduction. So in 591 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,399 Speaker 2: these areas where you have high end fertility, you will 592 00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 2: have Sunni's relying on Shia. I mean, sorry, sorry, you 593 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 2: have Shia relying on Sooni's because if everyone followed the 594 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 2: more restrictive law there wouldn't you wouldn't be able to 595 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 2: use other people like they wouldn't donate. They wouldn't. So 596 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 2: you need a population that is more okay with this 597 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 2: if you're going to go out and do this. So 598 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 2: they kind of work together in this roundabout way of 599 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 2: you know, finding donors because one one denomination prohibits it 600 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 2: and one allows it. It's very confusing. I hope I 601 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:34,839 Speaker 2: explained that worth the shit. 602 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 1: No, no, you nailed it, and I'm thinking through it 603 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: because it's, uh, it's almost a I don't want to 604 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: sound like I'm in any way diminishing the importance of this, 605 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: but it's almost like a loophole that everybody figured out together. 606 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you'll see the Sunnies going into like Shia 607 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 2: majority countries to do this. They'll like leave, you know, 608 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 2: it's usually a country that's close by, but they'll you know, 609 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 2: leave where they live to go where the other denomination 610 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 2: is more prevalent, so that they could get the reproductive 611 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:17,279 Speaker 2: assistance they need because where they live they can't use 612 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:18,280 Speaker 2: other people scam meats. 613 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:23,919 Speaker 1: Jeez, this is this is a complication, but it's it's 614 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: a complication, uh that arrives successfully. It I I'm stuttering 615 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 1: a bit because I'm trying to get that Jeff Goldbloom 616 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: line from Jurassic Park out of my head. You know, 617 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 1: it finds a way. Yeah, there's so many of these 618 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: sex finds a way, right. This is bringing us to uh, 619 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,799 Speaker 1: this is bringing us to maybe a little bit of 620 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,839 Speaker 1: a denimond. There's so much stuff that I want to 621 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,719 Speaker 1: ask you, and I know our Palnol has a lot 622 00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: of questions to Ben. I I imagine your your fury 623 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,319 Speaker 1: typing out some questions that we'll send to Ross off air. 624 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm getting ready. 625 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:08,759 Speaker 1: I didn't know. I didn't know if you were going 626 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 1: to take the bait on that one, bet, But thank 627 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:17,359 Speaker 1: you so Russ. We talked about We talked about the 628 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 1: importance of understanding what makes something to scandal. We talked 629 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: about the ways in which top down sexual policies can 630 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 1: affect a country right for generations. We talked about some 631 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: specific episodes, some funny, some frightening, some inspiring, but one 632 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,560 Speaker 1: thing we haven't yet talked about, and maybe this is 633 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: our big ticket item for our first episode with you, dude, 634 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,520 Speaker 1: Why is the US so hung up on sex? Why 635 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 1: are we so weird about it? 636 00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 2: Man? I wish I had a good answer for that. 637 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 2: That's a great question. I've wondered that myself. You know, 638 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,399 Speaker 2: I do think I know this is a long time ago, 639 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 2: but the people who decided to come here, the Europeans 640 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 2: who decided to come here, they were a lot of 641 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 2: them were crazy and repressed sexually. Okay, I don't think 642 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:26,479 Speaker 2: we've gotten over that. It's just in the DNA. The 643 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 2: most chilled out Europeans of that era weren't the ones 644 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:32,360 Speaker 2: come in here. 645 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: Right and uh and and those just go on. It's 646 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:43,720 Speaker 1: a feedback loop. Uh man, hands misery on and everyone. 647 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 1: I know. 648 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 2: I know we're multicultural society now, but you know, when 649 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 2: you're you're still stuck in the laws created by that system. 650 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 1: M Yeah, that makes that makes sense. It's a systemic 651 00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 1: problem now. 652 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,719 Speaker 2: You are in we're also very religious too. 653 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I was going to say, that's that's kind 654 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:02,000 Speaker 1: of the. 655 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:03,880 Speaker 2: Trade offs kind of go together. 656 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: They very much team up right, like like a weird 657 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:12,120 Speaker 1: wrestling team of repression, because you're it's history and religion 658 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:17,359 Speaker 1: you're in. You're further north in upstate New York, and 659 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 1: I am and my palt Ben and I here are 660 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 1: further down in the American Southeast. And maybe you could 661 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:33,239 Speaker 1: argue they the repression takes slightly different historical paths, but 662 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 1: we are We're very much in the Bible Belt. You know, 663 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 1: even in our fair metropolis of Atlanta or in other 664 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:48,360 Speaker 1: really cool cities like Athens, you're never more than about 665 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: twenty five thirty minutes away from some really weird billboards, 666 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 1: like really in the arly stuff. 667 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean if I'm rolling Nebraska, so oh. 668 00:43:58,360 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you get it. 669 00:43:59,239 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 2: I get it. 670 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We see then that history is always 671 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,719 Speaker 1: closer than it looks in the rear view mirror, and 672 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:13,799 Speaker 1: it has often unforeseen effects on the modern days. So 673 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,799 Speaker 1: we want to thank you for all the work that 674 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:21,319 Speaker 1: you have put into tracing these things. What they not 675 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,759 Speaker 1: just what we know about the past, but what it 676 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 1: tells us about the future. With that, before we go, 677 00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:33,440 Speaker 1: I gotta do two things rost and I hope it's okay, 678 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:34,960 Speaker 1: but I'm going to put you on the spot. Are 679 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,719 Speaker 1: you ready? All right? All right, cool? All right? Your 680 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,960 Speaker 1: game for it? Nice? First, can we have you back 681 00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:42,400 Speaker 1: on for a future episode? 682 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'd love that. 683 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 1: Okay, So we're thinking we talked a little bit off 684 00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:53,359 Speaker 1: air about ICP, the Juggalos. You've been doing a lot 685 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:57,520 Speaker 1: of interviews and work on the nineteen nineties, so it'd 686 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:02,000 Speaker 1: be it'd be fantastic for to reconvene in the future 687 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 1: with more from you on on those and other topics, 688 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,160 Speaker 1: especially what do we call it? Low culture? 689 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, low culture, trashy entertainment, you know, yeah, whatever a 690 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:13,759 Speaker 2: phrase you want to use. 691 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,319 Speaker 1: All right, yeah, Well, we're going to have you back 692 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,160 Speaker 1: on to learn more about that. The second thing that 693 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:22,680 Speaker 1: we have to ask is a question that's going to 694 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:24,800 Speaker 1: be on the mind of everybody in the audience today. 695 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,920 Speaker 1: Where can people learn more about your work? 696 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,240 Speaker 2: So you can just go to my website Ross Spinish 697 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:36,799 Speaker 2: dot com and I'm occasionally on Twitter and LinkedIn, but 698 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,480 Speaker 2: I have been inactive more recently. 699 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:46,239 Speaker 1: And that is spelled Ross r O S S B 700 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,680 Speaker 1: E N E s dot com. So do check it out. 701 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,360 Speaker 1: Check out the website folks, if you want to engage 702 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,520 Speaker 1: in some Twitter stall care, just be nice, as we 703 00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:01,839 Speaker 1: always say, and in the meantime, thank you again so much. 704 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,160 Speaker 1: But Russ, this has been a blast. I have learned 705 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:07,800 Speaker 1: a lot. I'm not sure I wanted to learn everything 706 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,920 Speaker 1: I just learned, but I had to appreciate it. And 707 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 1: we'll talk to you. 708 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:13,919 Speaker 2: Soon, all right, see you later. 709 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:20,200 Speaker 1: Man, what a what a ride we just had. There 710 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,440 Speaker 1: been the sleeping dog hacke it. I gotta ask you 711 00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 1: what stood out to you the most in some of 712 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:37,200 Speaker 1: these strange stories of sex man other Ben. 713 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:42,920 Speaker 3: I think the the scandal in the what was that 714 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:44,600 Speaker 3: Michigan ten years ago? 715 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,799 Speaker 1: Uh, I think it's pretty telling. 716 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 3: What the representative thought was gonna be less scandalous, and 717 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,520 Speaker 3: it just goes I don't know, maybe I'm maybe I'm 718 00:46:57,560 --> 00:46:59,920 Speaker 3: reaching a little far here, but it's like, maybe that's 719 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:04,000 Speaker 3: it's a not uncommon behavior that he's a little desensitized to. 720 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:06,600 Speaker 1: But that's just me. 721 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,320 Speaker 3: That was just what I was thinking in the moment. 722 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,440 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I didn't even connect that part, but 723 00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:17,000 Speaker 1: I'm tempted to agree. We can't wait to have Ross 724 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,480 Speaker 1: Benish back on the show. We're going to be talking 725 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:25,399 Speaker 1: about low culture trash TV, all kinds of things from that, 726 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:31,279 Speaker 1: the halcyon days of the nineteen nineties, which sadly been 727 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:36,080 Speaker 1: seemed to get further and further away. You guys should 728 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:39,640 Speaker 1: see Ben the Sleeping Dog Hackett shake his head along 729 00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:43,319 Speaker 1: with me in response to that. So we are going 730 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,000 Speaker 1: to call it a day. Big big thanks to our 731 00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,960 Speaker 1: guest super producer, Been the Sleeping Dog Hackett. Big thanks 732 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,880 Speaker 1: to Ross Benish, who is going to earn his official 733 00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:58,600 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History Moniker, probably in his second appearance. Big thanks 734 00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,759 Speaker 1: to aj Bahamas Jacob, Big thanks to Alex Williams who 735 00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:06,560 Speaker 1: can posed our track, our producer Max Williams. Big thanks 736 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:11,160 Speaker 1: of course to Jonathan Strickland aka the Quister, the Rude Dudes, 737 00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:15,560 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime, my pal Noel Brown, who will be returning 738 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:19,160 Speaker 1: soon and as Noel always likes to say, we'll see 739 00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:29,399 Speaker 1: you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit 740 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,560 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 741 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:33,520 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.