1 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: The idea of loss and damages has been a real 2 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: focal point of the twenty seventh Conference of the Parties, 3 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: the annual UN Climate negotiations happening in Egypt last year 4 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: in Glasgow. Global North countries fought to keep the topic 5 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: off the agenda when it was made. This year's host country, Egypt, 6 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: vowed to put it on the agenda early and keep 7 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: it there, and they've kept that promise. But I've been 8 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: seeing a lot of big gaps in the media coverage 9 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: on this issue. Global South countries are often treated like 10 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: a monolith, and the discussion around how to handle countries 11 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: that are both on the front lines of the climate 12 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: crisis and a major target for oil production is almost 13 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,279 Speaker 1: non existent. It's something I've been thinking about a lot 14 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: because we've been reporting a new season for the past 15 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: two years on Guyana and that country's emergence as an 16 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: oil producing country, but also because I've spent so much 17 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: time looking at the history of climate policy and how 18 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:31,759 Speaker 1: certain narratives have been shaped. The remarkable news out of 19 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: this year's cop is that negotiators, including those from the US, 20 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: which has historically been a big blocker to loss in damage, 21 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 1: agreed to officially establish a lost in Damage fund, but 22 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: there are still a lot of lingering questions around how 23 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: the global North and the global South can move forward 24 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: on addressing climate together. There's the failure of negotiators to 25 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: agree to include any language in the final agreement around 26 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: phasing fossil fuels out, of course, but there are a 27 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: bunch of other conversations that need to happen to you, 28 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: and those are all mostly informed by a history that 29 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: seems to be widely unknown or just ignored. Welcome back 30 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 1: to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. In this episode, we're going 31 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: to get into that history and unpack some of the 32 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: messier details around cop and loss and damage that's coming 33 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: up after this quick break. 34 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 2: We have to ask ourselves, can we ever attain the 35 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 2: ultimate objective of the convention, which is to prevent dangerous 36 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: anthropogenic interference with a climate system. By failing to meet 37 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 2: the objective of the convention, we may have rapified our 38 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 2: own doom. And if we have failed to meet the 39 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 2: objective of the convention, we have to confront the issue 40 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 2: of loss and damage. 41 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: That's Yeb Sano, the Philippines chief negotiator in the United 42 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, or UNF Triple C. 43 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: UNF Triple C is the basis for the annual Conference 44 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: of the Parties. Those parties are the countries that have 45 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: signed on to the Framework Convention on Climate Change at SCHOOL. Initially, 46 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: it was to bring the countries of the world together 47 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: to stop catastrophic climate change. During the twenty thirteen COP 48 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: in Warsaw, Sano's country was being devastated by super typhoon 49 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: High End, prompting Sauna to make the argument that the 50 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: UNF Triple C had failed to accomplish its original goal 51 00:03:57,720 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: and must now reassess. 52 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 2: Loss and damage is a reality today across the world 53 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 2: and developed country emissions reduction targets are dangerously low and 54 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 2: must be raised immediately. But even if these were in 55 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,239 Speaker 2: line with the demand of reducing forty to fifty percent 56 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 2: below nineteen nine to levels, we will still have luck 57 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: in climate change, and we still would need to address 58 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 2: the issue of loss and damage. 59 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: After giving that speech, Sano went on a hunger strike, 60 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: saying he would not end it until global North countries 61 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,239 Speaker 1: committed to funding loss and damage. And here's fact number 62 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: one that I haven't seen in any news reports on COP. 63 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 1: Those countries. At the twenty thirteen COP they agreed wealthy countries, 64 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 1: including the United States, agreed that by twenty twenty they 65 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: would be putting one hundred billion dollars a year into 66 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: a loss in Damages fund, But so far only about 67 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: twenty one billion dollars has ever been put in it, 68 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: and most of what was supposed to be effectively grant 69 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: money to global seuth countries in need of adaptation funding 70 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: was turned into loans. More debt is not something the 71 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: majority of global sealth countries need. Last year, Barbados Prime 72 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: Minister Mia Motley made history when she convinced the International 73 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: Monetary Fund to help her hit pause on Barbados's debt 74 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: payments so that they could devote some of their GDP 75 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: to climate adaptation instead and hopefully get ahead of some 76 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,799 Speaker 1: of the climate impacts that they know are heading their way. 77 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: This year, Motley is at COP with a proposal that 78 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: would help all Global South countries do the same. It's 79 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: called the Bridgetown Agenda. Here's Motley introducing it at COP. 80 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 3: Looks still too much like it did when it was 81 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 3: part of an imperialistic empire. The Global North borrows between 82 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 3: interest rates of between one to four percent, the global 83 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 3: south of fourteen percent, and then we wonder why they 84 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 3: just energy partnerships are not working. Similarly, we ask ourselves, 85 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 3: if countries that want to finance their way to NEET 86 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 3: zero and want to do the right thing can't get 87 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 3: the critical supplies, will they not have to rely again 88 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 3: on natural gases that clean bridge This is the ball reality, 89 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 3: and we have come here to ask us to open 90 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 3: our minds to different possibilities. 91 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: Motley laid out the specifics of her plan in that 92 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: speech too, the establishment of a climate mitigation trust that 93 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: unlocks five trillion dollars of private sector savings, provided that 94 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: the IMF will allow the use of its five hundred 95 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: billion dollars special Drawing Rights reserve. That would require not 96 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: just a decision by the IMF but also its member states, 97 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: particularly the United States. As Motley made clear. 98 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 3: We believe that we have a plan. We believe that 99 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 3: there can be the establishment of a climate mitigation trust 100 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 3: that unlocks five trillion dollars of private sector savings if 101 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 3: we can summon the will to use the SDRs five 102 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 3: hundred billion of SDRs special drawing rights in a way 103 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 3: that unlocks the private sector capital We believe that that 104 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 3: requires a change in the attitude of Congress, because the 105 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 3: agreement that establishes the International Monetary Fund requires eighty five 106 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 3: percent to change that agreement, and if the United States 107 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 3: government has seventeen percent of the quarter, then it can't 108 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 3: be done, mister Gore without your cognis. 109 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: She nodded to al Gore there because he spoke just 110 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: before her about the need to open up financing for 111 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: global self countries looking to adapt. But the bridget agenda 112 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: isn't just about debt, restructuring and the IMF. 113 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 3: We believe that it is critical that we address the 114 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 3: issue of loss and damage. The talk must come to 115 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 3: an end, and I'd like to salute Denmark in Belgium 116 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 3: and Scotland for their own modest ways of trying to 117 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 3: accept the precepts and principles of loss and damage as 118 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 3: critical and as morally just. But for loss and damage 119 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 3: to work, we believe that it can't only be an 120 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 3: issue of asking state parties to do the right things, 121 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 3: although they must. 122 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: Mat We also made a convincing argument for drawing fossil 123 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: fuel companies into the web of accountability at cop It 124 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: was a particularly interesting proposal given that once again the 125 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 1: industry has more delegates at COP than any one country. 126 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 3: But we believe that the non state actors and the stakeholders, 127 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 3: the oil and gas companies and those who facilitate them, 128 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 3: need to be brought into a special convocation between now 129 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 3: and COP twenty eight. How do companies make two hundred 130 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 3: billion dollars in profits in the last three months and 131 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 3: not expect to contribute at least ten cents in every 132 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 3: dollar of profit to a loss of damage fund. This 133 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 3: is what our people expect, and I ask us, as 134 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 3: we reflect on what a loss and damage fund can 135 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 3: look like and who should access it, that we convene 136 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 3: a special convocation that doesn't only involve of state parties, 137 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 3: but non state actors such as the same companies. 138 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: Motley has indicated that the G seven countries Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, 139 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: the United Kingdom, and the United States seem generally supportive 140 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: of her plan. None of them has officially signed on yet, 141 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: but it would be a really big deal if the 142 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: final COP agreement contains some version of the Bridgetown Agenda, 143 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: particularly the requirement that fossil fuel companies contribute to loss 144 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: and damages US Climate star John Carey has been talking 145 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 1: about the need for the private sector to fund loss 146 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: and damages, and his idea to make that happen is 147 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: a carbon market. But if you're going to ask fossil 148 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: fueld companies to pay for the carbon they're emitting today, 149 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: what about their historic contributions to climate change? Where's the 150 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: private sector accountability on that front. Motley's proposal at least 151 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: names that particular elephant, which brings me to the broader 152 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: history of COP and the fossil fuel industry. As I've 153 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: talked about in previous episodes, the industry was at the 154 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: table from Jump. They were there influencing government officials when 155 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: the UN Framework Conventional Climate Change was drafted. Way back 156 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety two at the Real Earth Summit, the 157 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 1: guy we've talked about a lot on this show, E. 158 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: Bruce Harrison, brought together the various industries and companies that 159 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: might be impacted by emissions regulations into a group called 160 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: the Global Climate Coalition. He also started working internationally in 161 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: advance of the Real Earth Summit because he saw this 162 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: whole cop situation coming a mile away. That's because back 163 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two, Harrison had seen the impact of 164 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: the first UN environmental summit, the United Nations Conference on 165 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: the Human Environment, which earthed the Stockholm Declaration. This groundbreaking 166 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: document made environmental issues global that emphasize is conservation, the 167 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: redistribution of resources, and state responsibility for environmental damage both 168 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: within and beyond their borders. It also had zero concern 169 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: for business, to the extent that industry was included at 170 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: all in the UNCCH negotiations, it was as a culprit 171 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: and a threat, not a partner. The first principle put 172 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: forth in Stockholm Declaration reads quote man has the fundamental 173 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 1: right to freedom, equality and adequate conditions of life in 174 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: an environment of equality that permits a life of dignity 175 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: and well being. And he bears a solemn responsibility to 176 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: protect and improve the environment for president and future generations. 177 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: Later on, the Declaration reaffirms nation's sovereign right to extract 178 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 1: their own resources, but notably balances that right with the 179 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: mandate that countries must quote ensure that activities within their 180 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: jurisdiction or control do not cause damage to the environment 181 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: of other states or of areas beyond the limits of 182 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: national jurisdiction. The Stockholm Declaration led to the creation of 183 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: new international laws, norms, and organizations focused on environmental protection, 184 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: including the United Nations Environmental Program, which was formed as 185 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: a permanent agency to act as the environmental conscience of 186 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: the UN. The Stockholm Declaration, combined with the creation of 187 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: the EPA and the passage of the Clean Air and 188 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: Clean Water Acts in the US, was a massive pr 189 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 1: crisis for American industry and a huge opportunity for a 190 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: Bruce Harrison. Throughout the eighties, Harrison scored himself invitations and 191 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: speaking engagements at various UNIP events, where he pushed the 192 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: idea that the more companies participated in the creation of 193 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: environmental policies, the more effective those policies would be. To 194 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: be clear, Harrison was not the only person getting that 195 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 1: idea in the eighties, nor was his message a hard sell. 196 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: Plenty of people were happy to embrace a business friendly 197 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: approach that required no economic trade offs, but given his 198 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: domestic and international influence, Harrison was a driving force. In 199 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: the late nineteen eighties, he created two organizations, the Global 200 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: Climate Coalition, which brought together manufacturers, oil companies, automotive, rail 201 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: and various other industries into a group that could shape 202 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: the global response to climate change, and envirocom an international 203 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: network of PR firms that would all use the same 204 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: corporate messaging on environmental issues. Their state admission was to 205 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: monitor emerging environmental policy all over the world for their 206 00:14:53,040 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: clients and to influence that policy through strategic lobbying. Was 207 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: to fully integrate industry into the international approach to environmental issues, 208 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: and the strategy was enormously successful. At the nineteen ninety 209 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: two Rio Summit. There was none of the urgency or 210 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: directness of the Stockholm Declaration. Gone was the emphasis on 211 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: government regulation. It was replaced by a sort of big 212 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: tent approach that included business interests and prioritized compromise. Agenda 213 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: twenty one, one of the defining documents out of that 214 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two summit, reads, in order to meet the 215 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: challenge of environment and development, states have decided to establish 216 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: a new global partnership. It is recognized that for the 217 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: success of this new partnership, it is important to overcome 218 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:53,479 Speaker 1: confrontation and to foster a climate of genuine cooperation and solidarity. 219 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: It was at the many events run by a business 220 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:02,359 Speaker 1: surrounding that nineteen ninety two REO or summit that Harrison 221 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: presented his paper on the concept of sustainable communication, or 222 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: what we now call greenwashing. Here's Melissa Aronchick, a media 223 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: studies scholar at Rutgers University and author of the book 224 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: A Strategic Nature, which unpacks a lot of this history. 225 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 4: I think it would be unfair to say, you know, 226 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 4: he invented the idea of corporate social responsibility. That would 227 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 4: be a little too much. But what we can say 228 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 4: is that he did invent the idea of sustainable communication, 229 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 4: which was so genius when you think about it, because 230 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 4: what is sustainable communication means? It means communicating in such 231 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 4: a way as to maintain sustainable relationships with the people 232 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 4: that matter, the people who are going to vote for you, 233 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 4: or the people who are going to support whatever it 234 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 4: is your clients are doing. It does not mean sustainable 235 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 4: practices or behaviors to protect the environment. 236 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: Person wasn't exactly delivering his message to an unfriendly audience. 237 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: Maurice Strong, the organizer of the Rio Earth Summit, was 238 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 1: a former oil man himself and often talked about the 239 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: need for industry to be part of any effective climate solution. 240 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 4: It's also really important to remember that Maurice Strong, who 241 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 4: was the organizer of that United Nations conference, was committed 242 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 4: to having business participate in the conference. Maurice Strong was 243 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 4: quite compelled or convinced by the idea that if you 244 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 4: did not have business as a key stakeholder in these 245 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 4: conversations about sustainable development, that you would never be able 246 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 4: to enforce it. You needed to have business at the 247 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 4: table and in agreement. 248 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 1: In contrast to the nineteen seventy two convening, the un 249 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 1: encouraged business community participation in Rio in nineteen ninety two 250 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 1: and industry groups were ready to take advantage. 251 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 4: Because business communities had been invited to the conference, and 252 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 4: because they knew that their buying was so important, they 253 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 4: planned extensively in the lead up to the conference to 254 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 4: be able to present what they called their own sustainable 255 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,719 Speaker 4: development Charter. And as you can imagine, this charter was, 256 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 4: you know, it did not contain anything that would have 257 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 4: really transformed how companies did business. It was a very 258 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,199 Speaker 4: business as usual document, but it paid a lot of 259 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 4: lip service to the idea of going green, being sustainable, 260 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 4: being very concerned about the environment. And because they got 261 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 4: out in front of the actual conference and the other 262 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 4: types of events that were being designed. They were really 263 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 4: able to put that document forward and stave off other 264 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 4: kinds of more binding legislation or more draconian regulations that 265 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 4: would have caused problems for these companies profits. 266 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: By the time the third cop in Kyoto rolled around, 267 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: industry was deeply entrenched in the process and absolutely determined 268 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: to prevent a binding treaty from ever being ratified by 269 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: the US. The Global Climate Coalition was at its peak 270 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: at this point, fully funded and fighting the idea of 271 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: Kyoto at every turn. Here's Brown University environmental sociologist doctor 272 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: Robert Brule. 273 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 5: The fossil fuel guys, they don't appeal to your head. 274 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 5: They appeal to your emotions. And then when it comes to, 275 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 5: you know, the economic impact, they're gonna basically, you know, 276 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 5: you're gonna be cold and dark, eating you know, raw vegetables, 277 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 5: you know. And it's an emotive function. That what the 278 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 5: pr genius is. And you know, if you look at 279 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 5: the commercial for the Global Climate, the gccs it's not 280 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 5: global and it won't work. They get a map of 281 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 5: the globe and they start cutting out the countries that 282 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 5: don't have to comply, you know, with the Kyoto Protocol 283 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 5: and they're cutting out China, India, and all of Africa, 284 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 5: South America, and then they all that dispap all of 285 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 5: these holes in it. You know, they said, this isn't fair, 286 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 5: it won't work, and it's not fair. And that's what 287 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 5: they ran on and guess what it worked. 288 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: They worked with Senators Chuck Hagel and Robert Byrd to 289 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: bake that idea into a resolution governing whether or not 290 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: the United States could ratify Kyoto. Here's a Global Climate 291 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: Coalition Chair Constance Holmes talking about it all back then. 292 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 6: In July nineteen ninety seven, the Senate passed the bird 293 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 6: Hegel Resolution on a ninety five to nothing vote, almost 294 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 6: a nonprecedented vote. That resolution said, in essence, the Senate 295 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 6: would not ratify an agreement that is not global, or 296 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 6: would not ratify an agreement that caused the United States 297 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 6: economy harmed. The Kyoto Protocol does not meet either test 298 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 6: of the bird Hegel Resolution. The restrictions of the Kyoto 299 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 6: Agreement apply only to thirty eight countries of the developed world, 300 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 6: with no provision for participation of even the more developed 301 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 6: of the rest of the world. On the first day 302 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 6: of the Buenos Aires meeting the developing countries acting as 303 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 6: a group, the Group of seventy seven in China refused 304 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 6: to let the subject of developing country voluntary participation remain 305 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 6: on the agenda. 306 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: Fast forward thirty years and now it's the fossil fuel 307 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 1: industry arguing that those seventy seven countries really need to 308 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 1: be able to delay emissions reductions. Why because international oil 309 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: companies need those countries oil to replace their reserves, and 310 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: they need their citizens to keep burning fossil fuels as 311 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: citizens in the Global North are reducing their usage. Without both, 312 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 1: the industry is doomed. Here's Steve call, investigative journalist and 313 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: author of the book Private Empire, about Exonmobile. 314 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 7: They need the oil they have to replace what they 315 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 7: pump every year, and they're just aren't that many places 316 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 7: left where an American oil company can own the oil 317 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 7: that they produce, And that's what Wall Street judges them by. 318 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: That's very different from the picture of the US fossil 319 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: fuel industry pains today when they talk about their projects 320 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: in the Global selth or about the benefits of quote 321 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: unquote cheap energy to those countries. Here's Mandy Gunnisakara a 322 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: spokesperson for the CO two coalition, sort of a modern 323 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:54,479 Speaker 1: day global climate coalition, testifying to Congress on this front. 324 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 8: This country's ability to harness our vast energy resources and 325 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 8: a responsible in an efficient manner has changed millions of 326 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 8: lives for the better. It is why life expectancy and 327 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 8: economic growth, both important indicators of human flourishing, have significantly improved. 328 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 8: Advancements in fossil based energy, and the development of modern 329 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 8: economies has provided access to life saving technologies like heat 330 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 8: during winter, water treatment, medicine, and refrigeration. A stark contrast 331 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 8: exists today in countries that do not have sophisticated energy 332 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 8: systems or access to affordable, reliable electricity, and parts of 333 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 8: the developing world, life expectancy today is ten to twenty 334 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 8: years shorter, and children under five regularly succumbed to preventable diseases. 335 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 8: The reality is that we could change these outcomes by 336 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 8: sharing our successful energy technologies, not by prohibiting their use 337 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 8: as a result of misaligned environmental policies. 338 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: The conversation gets a little messier when oil producing countries 339 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 1: in the global South advocate for the ability to develop 340 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: and use the fossil fuels within their borders for longer. 341 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: And it makes sense. How dare the global North, which 342 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: has amassed so much wealth thanks to abundant fossil fuels, 343 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: turn around and tell the global South that they can't 344 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: do the same. I asked Melinda Jenki, an attorney who's 345 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: fighting to shut down oil drilling in her country, Guyana, 346 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: this question, especially because it's not just Exonmobile making this 347 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: argument about the benefit of oil to Guyana, but many 348 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: of her fellow citizens too. 349 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:36,360 Speaker 9: The global North has basically broken the global climate system 350 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 9: as a result of greenhouse gas pollution, and I think 351 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 9: we should stop talking about emissions and call it what 352 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 9: it is, which is pollution from fossil fuels. It is 353 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 9: incredibly stupid for anybody to say, well, because you did 354 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 9: something bad and broke it, we now have a right 355 00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 9: to do something bad and break it. 356 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 1: Even further, Steve call notes that you need only look 357 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 1: at the last one hundred years or so to see 358 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: that when oil comes to town citizens are not in 359 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: fact lifted out of poverty. 360 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 7: Does not pan out for anyone other than the elites 361 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 7: of those countries. That's what the record shows, and development economics, 362 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 7: you know, it may not be a hard science like physics. 363 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 7: But it has pretty well established that the so called 364 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 7: resource curse in developing countries is a real thing, over 365 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,959 Speaker 7: and over again. And it's not only oil. Other resources 366 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 7: can produce the same cycle. But partly what happens is 367 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 7: that the elites that control the resource that produces sudden 368 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 7: wealth and sudden opportunity generally don't distribute the benefits equitably. 369 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 7: And I'm not even talking about some utopian socialist kind 370 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:02,719 Speaker 7: of perfect distribution, but even just to reinvest it in 371 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 7: a sustainable strategy of private enterprise lad development just generally 372 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 7: doesn't happen. There are a few examples of rulers who 373 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,199 Speaker 7: lived for ten or fifteen years and who weren't so 374 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 7: selfish as to keep it all for themselves and so on, 375 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,719 Speaker 7: but they are more the exception than the rule. And 376 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 7: it's not just about the greed of elites. It's also 377 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 7: about the way sudden wealth distorts the patterns of investment 378 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:46,360 Speaker 7: in a country by essentially alleviating the pressure to educate 379 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 7: a new generation of young scientists and tech entrepreneurs or 380 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 7: wealth creators, or people who are going to figure out 381 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 7: how to save and improve agriculture in an era of 382 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 7: climate Chain said all of these urgent problems that emerging 383 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 7: countries face in the global South, I mean, they get 384 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 7: displaced by the easy money that comes from a resource boom, 385 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 7: and so you end up not only running out of 386 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 7: the bounty when the oil is depleted, but you've missed 387 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 7: the opportunity to pursue, you know, course of development, like 388 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 7: the one easy example that is often cited I think 389 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 7: for good reason, and it can be distorted around, you know, 390 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 7: issues of culture or race and can be I think misstated. 391 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 7: But with that caveat, I mean, in the nineteen fifties, 392 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 7: Nigeria and South Korea had roughly the same per capita 393 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 7: income and they were both very poor countries. South Korea 394 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 7: had just emerged from a terrible long experience of Warnaki 395 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 7: patient and Nigeria was blessed with this huge oil bounty, 396 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,959 Speaker 7: and South Korea chose to kind of industrialize on its 397 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 7: own without a lot of resources. And in you know, 398 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 7: a single generation, one country got rich and the other one, uh, 399 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 7: you know, cycled through the resource curse. And you know, 400 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 7: economists point to that and say, you know, statistically, Nigeria 401 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 7: may look like it had greater wealth, but in the 402 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 7: experience of its society, the wealth you know, ran off 403 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 7: shore and often kind of displaced opportunities that Nigeria might 404 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 7: have had to build a more sustainable economy. 405 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: And the vast majority of cases, the big winners in 406 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: these deals are not global self countries, but the global 407 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: north companies that profit from their oil, much of which 408 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: is exported out of the country, and no matter where 409 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: you are in the world, proximity to oil and gas 410 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: development is more guarantee of cheap energy. In the US, 411 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: for example, Gulf Coast residents have some of the highest 412 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: electricity bills in the country, which brings us back to 413 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: where we began. Given the presence of fossil fuel influence 414 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: on COPS since its inception, and the rising number of 415 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: fossil fuel delegates every year, maybe it's time to include 416 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: them as official parties just as responsible for turning the 417 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: tide on climate and paying for damages as the governments 418 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: they have manipulated over the years. At a minimum, it's 419 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: interesting to think about Motley's suggestion that a sort of 420 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: interim can meaning with fossil fuel company is held accountable, 421 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: could happen in between cops. Lots to think about and 422 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: I'll definitely be keeping tabs on how everything continues to unfold. 423 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week. Don't 424 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: forget also to subscribe to our weekly newsletter. As the 425 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: future of Twitter remains a bit unpredictable, I am starting 426 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: to do a lot of the things that I did 427 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: on there in this weekly roundup of climate coverage, So 428 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: you'll get a list of five or six of the 429 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: stories or studies that I think are really important in 430 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: the week and why, delivered to your inbox. You can 431 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: sign up for that at Drilled podcast dot com. Drilled 432 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: is an original Critical Frequency production. Our producer is Sarah Ventry. 433 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: Sound design, mixing and mastering are by Peter Duff, who 434 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: also wrote our original score. Our First Amendment attorney is 435 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: James Wheaton at the First Amendment Project, and the show 436 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: is reported, written and hosted by me Amy Westerbelt.