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Speaker 1: Hey, lady, is doctor diam here. If you like this

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Speaker 1: show and you want to make your own, let me

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Speaker 1: tell you about the free platform Anchor. It's a creation

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Speaker 1: tool that allows you to record and edit your podcast

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Speaker 1: are looking for. Anchor will distribute it all for you

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Speaker 1: so it can be heard on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and more.

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Speaker 1: Download the free Anchor app or go to anchor dot

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Speaker 1: fm to get started.

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Speaker 2: On this week's episode in her Space.

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Speaker 3: Hope everyone waits for that deathbed confession. Most people don't

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Speaker 3: get it. So if you're going to continue engaging with

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Speaker 3: parents who just really especially narcissistic parents who got it wrong,

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Speaker 3: you are going to have to have realistic expectations and

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Speaker 3: radical acceptance and above all else, don't personalize your parents' stuff.

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Speaker 3: That was them. It may have shaped you, but it's

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Speaker 3: not yours to carry us, not your lord, it's not

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Speaker 3: your burden. Put it down.

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Speaker 4: Today's episode is sure to provide you with motivation, inspiration,

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Speaker 4: or even a fresh perspective. If you have any AHA moments,

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Speaker 4: or if you feel comforted throughout the episode, Lady, please

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Speaker 4: leave us a review and tell us what we're doing

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Speaker 4: right so we can stay on track. Also, we release

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Speaker 4: episodes every Friday, so be sure to subscribe on iTunes

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Speaker 4: and visit her Space podcast dot com and enter your

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Speaker 4: email address to get updates about our live events and

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Speaker 4: all the new beginnings.

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Speaker 2: That we have for this year.

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Speaker 3: Thanks.

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Speaker 5: Welcome to her Space, a podcast dedicated to uplifting women

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Speaker 5: like you. We're your hosts Doctor Dominique Broussard, a college

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Speaker 5: professor and psychologist.

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Speaker 4: And Terry Lomax, a techie and motivational speaker. In a

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Speaker 4: world where black women are often misrepresented and misunderstood, please

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Speaker 4: join us as we initiate authentic conversations on everything from

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Speaker 4: fibroids to fake friends, and create a safe space where

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Speaker 4: black women can just be Hey, lady, it's Terry here

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Speaker 4: from the Herspace podcast and I have a question for you.

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Speaker 4: Do you want to start your own podcast? Have you

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Speaker 4: been thinking to yourself? You know what, I want to

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Speaker 4: start a podcast, but you just haven't taken the leap.

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Speaker 4: If that's you, I got you. I'm hosting a free

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Speaker 4: podcasting masterclass where I'm going to teach you how to

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Speaker 4: create your own podcast from start to finish. So visit

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Speaker 4: Terry Limax dot com and click on the pink link

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Speaker 4: in the middle of your screen and register for my

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Speaker 4: free podcasting masterclass. I hope to see you there, lady.

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Speaker 4: I am super excited today, if you can't tell. So

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Speaker 4: I'm going to try my best to get through this

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Speaker 4: introduction without doing too much, all right, So let's go

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Speaker 4: ahead and just dive right in.

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Speaker 2: Today we have a.

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Speaker 4: Very special guest in her space that you need to

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Speaker 4: hear from, whether you know it or not. Her credentials

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Speaker 4: are impressive and we could talk about her bio and

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Speaker 4: contributions and her impact all day. So we'll try to

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Speaker 4: just keep it short and sweet so we can jump

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Speaker 4: into the juicy conversation. Doctor Rominy Drvasola is a licensed

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Speaker 4: clinical psychologist in private practice in Santa Monica in Sherman Oaks, California,

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Speaker 4: and professor of Psychology at California State University, Los Angeles,

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Speaker 4: where she was named Outstanding Professor in twenty twelve. She

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Speaker 4: is also a visiting Professor of Psychology at the University

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Speaker 4: of Johannesburg. She is the author of the modern relationship

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Speaker 4: survival manual Should I Stay or Should I go surviving

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Speaker 4: a relationship with a narcissist. You are what you eat.

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Speaker 4: Change your food, attitude, change your life, and don't you

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Speaker 4: know who I am staying sane in an era of narcissism, entitlement,

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Speaker 4: and in civility, as well as the author of numerous

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Speaker 4: peer reviewed journal articles, book chapters, and conference papers. In

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Speaker 4: addition to being the co host of Oxygen series My

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Speaker 4: Shopping Addiction, she's also been featured on series on Bravo,

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Speaker 4: The Lifetime Movie That Work, National Geographic, The History Channel,

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Speaker 4: Discovery Science, and more. You may have recently seen her

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Speaker 4: on Red Table Talk with Jada Willow and Gamming and today.

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Speaker 4: We are so stoked to have her in her space.

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Speaker 4: Welcome doctor Romeney.

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Speaker 3: Thank you guys. How are you doing?

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Speaker 2: Fantastic? We are so excited for this conversation.

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Speaker 4: We know that our community needs to eat if they

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Speaker 4: don't know it yet, so we are just pumped.

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Speaker 3: I love it. I'm so glad, I'm grateful we're going

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Speaker 3: to have this conversation. I think a lot of people

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Speaker 3: will benefit from it.

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Speaker 5: All right, So our quote of the day, Doctor Romney,

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Speaker 5: you may recognize this quote. The narcissist is like a

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Speaker 5: bucket with a hole in the bottom.

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Speaker 6: No matter how.

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Speaker 5: Much you put in, you can never fill it up.

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Speaker 5: That is one of your quotes, doctor Romney, and as

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Speaker 5: Terry and I were preparing for this episode to have

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Speaker 5: you on with us, like, that quote stood out to

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Speaker 5: me so much because it made like just seeing that

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Speaker 5: analogy made so much sense to me in terms of

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Speaker 5: being able to understand what it's like to interact with

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Speaker 5: a narcissist.

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Speaker 3: That's it, I mean, And I think that if people

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Speaker 3: could understand it that way, then they will understand that

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Speaker 3: at some point it's just a waste of effort and energy.

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Speaker 3: I think people think, oh, one day I'll give it

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Speaker 3: off and then a bucket will be full and everything

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Speaker 3: will be fine. It's just never going to happen. And

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Speaker 3: what I really want to be able to do is

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Speaker 3: give people permission to just say stop, just stop.

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Speaker 2: Now, Doctor Rominye.

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Speaker 4: Narcissism for me is like a relatively new term in

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Speaker 4: my toolbox. But after I started doing some research, I

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Speaker 4: realized very quickly, Oh, I was raised around a lot

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Speaker 4: of narcissists.

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Speaker 3: So can we just.

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Speaker 4: Begin by explaining in simple terms, like what is a narcissist?

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Speaker 4: Right it's like a buzzword these days.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a buzz but it's an incredibly misunderstood buzzword.

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Speaker 3: And I think that as there's more and more content

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Speaker 3: out there, more important people are understanding it. But I

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Speaker 3: still think more people misunderstand it than not. So Narcissism

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Speaker 3: is not self love. That's how a lot of people

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Speaker 3: think of it. They think it's self love, maybe even

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Speaker 3: a little bit selfish. Not really. In fact, it's not

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Speaker 3: self love. It's self loathing. I'll get to that in

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Speaker 3: a minute. But it's characterized by a pattern, and that

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Speaker 3: pattern is really a lack of empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, arrogance,

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Speaker 3: always seeking out admiration, always seeking out validation, being really superficial,

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Speaker 3: being really sensitive to feedback or criticism, but having no

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Speaker 3: problem doing it to other people. Not being able to

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Speaker 3: regulate frustration or disappointment. So when those things happen to

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Speaker 3: the person, they will tend to really react out with

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Speaker 3: tremendous rage, and they can almost be so sensitive they

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Speaker 3: almost look paranoid, and in some cases some forms of narcissism,

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Speaker 3: when things don't go the way they want, they also

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Speaker 3: tend to look like victims, and so all of this combined,

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Speaker 3: and there's different kinds of narcissism and all that. That's

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Speaker 3: sort of the core of it. But at the real core,

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Speaker 3: narcissistic individuals are deeply insecure. That's why they're always lashing

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Speaker 3: out of people. That's why they're always so angry. That's

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Speaker 3: why they're always so superficial, because they focus on their

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Speaker 3: outsides rather than on their insides. But yet because they

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Speaker 3: focus on their outsides, they're very charming. They can be

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Speaker 3: very charismatic, they can seem very confident, so people are

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Speaker 3: naturally drawn to them. And if they don't understand it,

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Speaker 3: it's like a spider, you're going to get sucked into

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Speaker 3: the web. You're not going to be able to get out.

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Speaker 3: But this idea that a narcissist is just someone who's

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Speaker 3: in love with themselves and likes to look in the mirror.

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Speaker 3: Not only do they not love themselves, Yeah, they love

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Speaker 3: to look in the mirror, but when they look in

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Speaker 3: the mirror, it's all about insecurity and how can I

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Speaker 3: look better? And how can I look better? Because if

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Speaker 3: I look good, then I am good. Kind of thing,

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Speaker 3: that's really what it is.

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Speaker 5: Now when I hear that I can see where so

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Speaker 5: many people would get that confused because I could see

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Speaker 5: where so many of us could say, oh, well, I

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Speaker 5: recognize a couple of those traits in myself.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that. You know. Listen, we all have

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Speaker 3: our days, right, We have that moment when we might

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Speaker 3: lash out at someone. We have that moment where we

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Speaker 3: might snap at someone because we can't get the answer

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Speaker 3: we want from a clerk or something like that. The

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Speaker 3: key is how self reflective we are, how quickly we're

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Speaker 3: self reflective, how we try to repair the damage, and

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Speaker 3: how much responsibility we take. So let's say I was

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Speaker 3: out somewhere. I don't know, it seems like the olden days,

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Speaker 3: but like, I was out getting a couple of coffee, right,

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Speaker 3: and they serve someone ahead of me in line. I'm like,

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Speaker 3: excuse me, excuse me. I was ahead of her, you know,

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Speaker 3: And I do that whole thing, which is deeply entitled.

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Speaker 3: It's not a good look, and it could very well

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Speaker 3: be I was doing that because I've had a bad day.

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Speaker 3: But then when I catch myself and say, I am

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Speaker 3: so sorry. I had no right to behave like that.

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Speaker 3: I apologize. I'm having a bad day, but that is

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Speaker 3: not your problem, and I apologize for being short with you.

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Speaker 3: That clerk may still be mad. That's not the point here.

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Speaker 3: It's that you took responsibility. But when you keep making

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Speaker 3: those messes and are never self aware and in fact

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Speaker 3: feel like, well, I had the right to do that

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Speaker 3: because it's me, and why should I have to wait

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Speaker 3: in line? And everything has to be fair to me.

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Speaker 3: That's the thing with narcissists. They want everything to be

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Speaker 3: fair but for themselves. They're not so concerned. But things

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Speaker 3: aren't fair or just for other people. It's all about them.

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Speaker 3: So I think that it is the it's how pervasive

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Speaker 3: it is, how much it cuts across other situations. So sure,

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Speaker 3: we do have moments when each of us are less

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Speaker 3: than graceful, and people will say, well, does that mean

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Speaker 3: a person who posts a lot of selfies on social

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Speaker 3: media is a narcissist? Not necessarily, though we do know

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Speaker 3: that narcissism and selfie posting are correlated, but that doesn't

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Speaker 3: mean one causes the other. If that selfie posting person

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Speaker 3: is a sweet person, is a kind person who checks

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Speaker 3: in and apologizes and take responsibility, maybe at the worst

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Speaker 3: of it, a little immature, maybe the a little insecure,

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Speaker 3: but they're aware of who they are. And they might say,

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Speaker 3: let's I think it's fun and I'm just having fun.

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Speaker 3: I mean, is that any different than me playing a

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Speaker 3: game on my phone. That's giving them joy and they're

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Speaker 3: still being kind to other people.

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Speaker 2: That's not a narcissist. That's a really good point.

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Speaker 4: And when you think about I know we're going to

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Speaker 4: transition slightly into narcissistic parents right when you think about

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Speaker 4: the signs of a narcissistic parent and how someone can

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Speaker 4: tell if they've been impacted by a narcissistic parent, what

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Speaker 4: does that look like?

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Speaker 3: So I always tell people that sadly, having a narcissistic

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Speaker 3: parent is a legacy that you carry heavily on your

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Speaker 3: back and on your psyche throughout your adult life. And

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Speaker 3: I'll tell you what I mean by that. Narcissistic parents

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Speaker 3: harm kids through a number of ways. I mean, number one,

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Speaker 3: these are very egocentric pattern parents who put their needs

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Speaker 3: ahead of the needs of their kids. And as a parent,

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Speaker 3: I can tell you that's not how the math works.

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Speaker 3: Are there days I put my needs ahead. Sure, I

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Speaker 3: had to go to work, I might have chosen go

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Speaker 3: to a concert. I mean not a concert, a conference.

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Speaker 3: I wish I would gone to a concert, but I

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Speaker 3: chosen to go to a conference. You know, I might

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Speaker 3: have had a work dinner that went late. I might

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Speaker 3: have missed something at their school because I did have

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Speaker 3: to work. And sure, maybe a couple of times I

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Speaker 3: might have chosen a friend's birthday and that might have

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Speaker 3: meant I didn't watch a show they wanted that night.

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Speaker 3: We've all done that. But more often than not, eighty

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Speaker 3: ninety percent of the time, you really do you put

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Speaker 3: your needs secondary to your kids, or you figure it

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Speaker 3: out right well. The narcissistic parent is the reverse. It's

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Speaker 3: always their needs first, what they want, what they like,

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Speaker 3: They hold court and their kids often feel like they

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Speaker 3: have to earn their parents' love and that so a

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Speaker 3: narcissistic parent is often one that may either view their

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Speaker 3: kid as an extension of themselves, meaning if that kid

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Speaker 3: is doing just what they want, playing basketball or doing

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Speaker 3: ballet or dance or singing, or doing really well in

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Speaker 3: school and the parent can brag about that kid, that

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Speaker 3: kid can often become a bit of a golden child

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Speaker 3: to that narcissistic parent, and the narcissistic parent will sort

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Speaker 3: of almost be a parasite, sucking off of their kid's

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Speaker 3: achievements and really putting all their effort in. But that

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Speaker 3: same golden child, let's say they have an emotional need,

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Speaker 3: or maybe they're starting to burn out on basketball or

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Speaker 3: ballet or something like that, the parent will be nowhere

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Speaker 3: to be found when there's a real need, an emotional need,

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Speaker 3: a deep need, and that child starts to learn they're

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Speaker 3: a bit of a one trick pony. Mom or dad,

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Speaker 3: whoever the narcissist is, is really only around when they're

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Speaker 3: bringing home the trophies, when it's sports season, when they're

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Speaker 3: slam duncan, when it's a whole recital, then they're there

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Speaker 3: in the front row. But at other times those parents

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Speaker 3: are nowhere to be found. Another thing that narcissistic parents do,

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Speaker 3: and I call that particular pattern, by the way, over

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Speaker 3: indulgence and under indulgence. They may spoil the child. They

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Speaker 3: may you know, over like polish the trophies and everyone, hey,

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Speaker 3: here's my champ kid, but they underindulge their emotional worlds.

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Speaker 3: The other way you know you have a narcissistic parent

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Speaker 3: is that they really turn you into someone who becomes

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Speaker 3: the source of what we call narcissistic supply, which is

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Speaker 3: the validation. Remember that bucket we talked about, You can

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Speaker 3: never fill narcissistic parents the same way. So the poor child,

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Speaker 3: because remember a child doesn't understand from narcissism. Most adults

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Speaker 3: don't understand narcissism. A child is not going to take

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Speaker 3: step back and say, ah, yes, my parents is a

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Speaker 3: narcissist and will never be satisfied, so let me go

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Speaker 3: and tend to my needs. No, the poor child is

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Speaker 3: going to do everything they possibly can to win their

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Speaker 3: parents over, to get their parents regard, to get their

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Speaker 3: parents to notice for no other reason that that's a

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Speaker 3: survival strategy for a child. So some kids try to

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Speaker 3: do that by being the very best kid they can do.

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Speaker 3: They will try to keep their room clean, they will

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Speaker 3: try to, you know, tell the parent what they want.

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Speaker 3: They'll they'll even do things that adults should really be doing,

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Speaker 3: like really chores that are above sort of the pale

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Speaker 3: for what a child should be doing. Tell the parents

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Speaker 3: they are nice and pretty and smart and wow, mommy,

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Speaker 3: I'm so proud of you all the time, just to

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Speaker 3: keep that parent where they want, or the child will

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Speaker 3: act out to get that narcissistic parents' attention, you'll see

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Speaker 3: that they'll be very impulsive, they'll get in trouble in school,

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Speaker 3: they'll get into trouble with friends, they'll start to rebel

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Speaker 3: as a teenager. But in many ways, that's like, please

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Speaker 3: notice me, please see me, Please pay attention to me.

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Speaker 3: And for the kid who may not be up to

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Speaker 3: cleaning the house or doing well at basketball or being

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Speaker 3: a parent's handmade, which is in essence what happens to

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Speaker 3: these kids, and they go the other way either way,

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Speaker 3: the poor kid is just trying to win their parents over. Now,

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Speaker 3: fast forward into adulthood and you meet other people. Your

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Speaker 3: most primary relationships will organize. How can I win this

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Speaker 3: person over? How can I give them enough narcissistic supply?

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Speaker 3: What do I need to do to get their validation?

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Speaker 3: Now you're an adult, and that's what you do in

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Speaker 3: your adult relationships too. So people who have narcissistic parents,

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Speaker 3: they go on in adulthood they either are very anxious adults,

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Speaker 3: always wondering am I wrong? Full of self doubt. Maybe

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Speaker 3: I'm not doing this right? What if I disappointed this person?

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Speaker 3: What if I'm not enough? Or they have problems with

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Speaker 3: regulation because narcissistic parents are never around long enough and

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Speaker 3: don't know how to do this themselves to teach their

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Speaker 3: kids how to sit with uncomfortable feelings like disappointment. Right, so,

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Speaker 3: you know, how does a child learn to be disappointed?

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Speaker 3: I can say this as a parent, as hard as

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Speaker 3: it is to do. We sit with that child and

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Speaker 3: we let them cry it out. It's not we can't

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Speaker 3: fix everything, but the narcissist your parent. You know what,

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Speaker 3: I'm calling your coach, I'm calling your teacher, or there's

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Speaker 3: nowhere to be found. When the child's going through disappointment,

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Speaker 3: the child doesn't learn to regulate his or her emotions.

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Speaker 3: They go into adulthood when they have strong emotions, they

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Speaker 3: don't know what to do. So what are things they

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Speaker 3: might do? Use drugs or alcohol, eat, spend, gamble, have sex,

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Speaker 3: act out. They never learn to regulate those emotions. That's

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Speaker 3: one of the primary jobs of a parent. And I

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Speaker 3: hate to say path number three, they become narcissistic themselves.

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Speaker 3: Having a narcissistic parent puts a person at risk for

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Speaker 3: becoming a narcissist as an adult. Now, which of those

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Speaker 3: three pathways you take has a lot to do with

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Speaker 3: lots of other factors like temperament and other risk factors

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Speaker 3: that are floating around that child.

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Speaker 5: Oh my goodness, Wow, that was just that was a

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Speaker 5: lot to take in, and I could see, Yeah, I

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Speaker 5: can totally imagine that there are several listeners out there

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Speaker 5: where they're feeling like their mind is blown because they

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Speaker 5: are making the connection to how they were raised and

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Speaker 5: who they are now. And one of the things that

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Speaker 5: you know, watching your videos that you talked about is

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Speaker 5: this idea of trauma bonding, And so I was wondering

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Speaker 5: if you could explain what trauma bonding is and how

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Speaker 5: that works with the narcissistic parent and their child.

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Speaker 3: So with trauma bonding, what ends up happening is is,

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Speaker 3: in the most simple way to put it, is that

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Speaker 3: for the trauma bonded person, abuse equals love and so

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Speaker 3: and there's what the next step to that is that

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Speaker 3: in order to stay in that trauma bonded relationship, in

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Speaker 3: that really unhealthy relationship, I should say, the person makes

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Speaker 3: up a lot of justifications. They didn't mean it, they

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Speaker 3: were upset, and so you fight to keep that bond

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Speaker 3: with that person. And it relates a bit to codependency too, right,

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Speaker 3: because what is the codependent person? But there's somebody who's

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Speaker 3: constantly trying to cater to the other person, fix the

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Speaker 3: other person, Please the other person, because you get your

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Speaker 3: self esteem really from how the other person's doing, rather

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Speaker 3: than from yourself. So what happens with that trauma bond

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Speaker 3: is that you actually it's like there, it's almost like

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Speaker 3: the more abuse of the relationship, the stickier it is.

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Speaker 3: And in so doing, the person doesn't learn to become

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Speaker 3: independent and autonomous. They don't learn to voice their own needs,

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Speaker 3: they don't learn to be their own person, because if

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Speaker 3: they did, it's almost like then what because these it's

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Speaker 3: as though when you're in these these traumatic spaces, there

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Speaker 3: is no safety. Once again, fast forward to adult hood.

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Speaker 3: Abuse equals love? What kind of relationship is a person

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Speaker 3: going to stay? And in fact, people who are prone

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Speaker 3: to trauma bond and find themselves in this really tragic

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Speaker 3: space that when they are in healthy relationships will say,

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Speaker 3: this kind of feels boring, this feels uninteresting. It's as

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Speaker 3: though without the abuse, it's not love. It's a really

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Speaker 3: tough cycle to break, and they'll say, huh, I don't

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Speaker 3: even know if this is is this person loved me,

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Speaker 3: and I'm like, Okay, they show up, they pay attention,

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Speaker 3: they're present, they're compassionate, and yeah, that sounds like love

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Speaker 3: to me. And also, but there's no drama, there's no excitement,

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Speaker 3: there's no chaos, there's no somebody walking out on you,

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Speaker 3: there's no abandonment. All the stuff that is their trauma.

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Speaker 3: And so that's the trauma bond.

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Speaker 2: Goodness.

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Speaker 4: I feel like my whole life is being talked about

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Speaker 4: right now, doctor Robine. I'm like, oh my goodness, this

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Speaker 4: resonates so deeply. But luckily I have a good, great therapist.

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Speaker 4: Not going to do on the work, but I will

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Speaker 4: say you talked a bit about how those that have

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Speaker 4: been raised by narcissistic parents may have some of those

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Speaker 4: traits because they're upbringing. And then some of us we

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Speaker 4: just have an off day and things like that. How

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Speaker 4: do we address the narcissism within ourselves? Like maybe someone's

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Speaker 4: hearing this and they're like, oh my gosh, that's me.

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Speaker 2: What do we do?

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Speaker 3: So here's the number one. I get this email every day,

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Speaker 3: ten times a day. Doc. I'm watching her videos. I

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Speaker 3: think I'm the narcissist. First of all, when I hear

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Speaker 3: that that, to me is a good sign. If a

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Speaker 3: person's willing to be self reflective enough to say, ick,

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Speaker 3: I'm seeing some of these patterns in myself, I'll say

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Speaker 3: step one, fantastic, You've just gone over half the journey

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Speaker 3: with that. Because most pathologically narcissistic individuals will never cop

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Speaker 3: to being narcissistic. They'll tell other people they're narcissistic. They'll

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Speaker 3: say other people are jealous. They'll say, you know, other

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Speaker 3: people are haters. So they'll completely foist it on the

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Speaker 3: world and say there's absolutely nothing wrong with me. People

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Speaker 3: just envy me, the person who's like, I'm seeing that

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Speaker 3: some of my patterns hurt other people. Fifty percent of

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Speaker 3: the journey right there. The next fifty percent is really

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Speaker 3: really hard because for people who say, you know, this

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Speaker 3: is who I am, I am really that person who

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Speaker 3: yells the coffee shop person. I do have trouble with empathy.

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Speaker 3: I do tend to be egocentric. I do tend not

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Speaker 3: to listen to my partner. But honestly, some of them

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Speaker 3: will say, I came from a family where if you

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Speaker 3: couldn't get your word in edgewise, you didn't take the

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Speaker 3: luxury of time of listening to other people because you

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Speaker 3: had to get yourself in there. It was almost like

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Speaker 3: a family where there's not enough food, right you have

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Speaker 3: to snatch that of food off the table, or in

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Speaker 3: a chaotic family where nobody's listening. People are like, we

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Speaker 3: didn't listen. We just yelled because we had to get

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Speaker 3: our words in or we were never going to get

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Speaker 3: our chance. And so you can see if you come

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Speaker 3: from that system you jump into adulthood, how that could

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Speaker 3: translate into not being present or not even looking empathic

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Speaker 3: in a relationship. But if you can identify it, then

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Speaker 3: the next step is to committing to the work of

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Speaker 3: every day, every hour mindfulness in your relationships. And that

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Speaker 3: means doing the hard work of catching yourself stopping and

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Speaker 3: genuinely listening to the other person and turning down your insecurity.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, they're talking about me, they're criticizing me,

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Speaker 3: you know, be present with their words. Stop thinking about

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Speaker 3: how it's all about you, because that's the problem with

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Speaker 3: most of us. We listen to other people's words solely

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Speaker 3: through the gateway of how this is about us. Maybe

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Speaker 3: it's not about you. And for narcissistic individuals, there does

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Speaker 3: tend to be that is about me, and so be present,

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Speaker 3: listen to the other person, reflect back to the other person,

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Speaker 3: be self reflective on how your words will impact that person,

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Speaker 3: and only then should you speak. And what I just

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Speaker 3: telled you that sequence that is the hardest training for

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Speaker 3: a marathon for somebody who's not used to doing that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I could imagine as I was sitting there and

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Speaker 5: listening to you. Yes, this act of mindfulness. And I

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Speaker 5: know that mindfulness tends to be like it is one

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Speaker 5: of the latest buzzwords as well. And so how would

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Speaker 5: you encourage someone to start practicing this mindfulness?

431
00:21:57,880 --> 00:21:59,200
Speaker 3: Because I know you said.

432
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:03,439
Speaker 5: Like every like being present and aware every moment of

433
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,359
Speaker 5: every day. But how does one who's never done that

434
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:07,399
Speaker 5: start that?

435
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 3: Start small? You know, And so I start with very simple,

436
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 3: simple exercises. A very simple one would be reacting versus responding.

437
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,399
Speaker 3: Reacting is when you speak without thinking, when you're like,

438
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 3: I never said that. That's a reaction when you stop

439
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 3: and hear what they say and say, okay, let me

440
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 3: take this in. I'll be honest with you, I don't

441
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,679
Speaker 3: recall saying that. However, if I had said something like that,

442
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,200
Speaker 3: that must have been really hurtful and I'm so sorry,

443
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,119
Speaker 3: and let me think on it, because clearly my communication,

444
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 3: I'm taking responsibility for my communication that night it was off.

445
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,359
Speaker 3: I think there was also a lot of emotion. So

446
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,200
Speaker 3: can we sit down and talk about that? Do you

447
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 3: see the difference between those two One that was very

448
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 3: stopping thinking, taking responsibility, still saying like I'm going to

449
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 3: be honest, I don't recall there's a lot of emotion

450
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,120
Speaker 3: that day, So can we talk about it. The responding

451
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 3: allows room for a conversation to take place. The reacting

452
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 3: often gaslights the other person. It often shuts the conversation down.

453
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 3: So that's an easy exercise, which is literally way to beat.

454
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 3: When someone says something to you, stop, listen, take it in,

455
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 3: compose a response, and make sure that next sentence out

456
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 3: of your mouth starts with I and not you. That way,

457
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 3: you're more likely to be taking responsibility rather than accusing

458
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 3: the other person, which tends to be the narcissist game. Right,

459
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,120
Speaker 3: you did this, you said that, you're this, you're that

460
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 3: versus I feel and unless they say I never said that,

461
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 3: which case that's no good. But you want to pay

462
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 3: attention to I want to be respectful of the other

463
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 3: person's reality, even if mine might have been different, and

464
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 3: to acknowledge they had there they had an experience of

465
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 3: the event. You had an experience of the event. The

466
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 3: two may not agree, but both of you clearly perceived

467
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 3: it differently. That's very different than I never said that.

468
00:23:58,320 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 2: That's a really, really good point.

469
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,360
Speaker 4: And when I think about just the conversation that we're

470
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 4: having now, I think about the research I've done, and

471
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 4: I notice that sometimes feelings of shame come up for

472
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 4: me when I have honest conversations with myself about what

473
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 4: happened in my childhood. And so my question for you is,

474
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,879
Speaker 4: how do you balance having respect and admiration for the

475
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 4: adults that reared us while also acknowledging that they had

476
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 4: some flaws that impacted us deeply.

477
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 3: I think that's a brilliant conversation. That's interesting. I have

478
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 3: a video that'll be coming out about this in the

479
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 3: next few weeks. Is that every you know, no parent,

480
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 3: and I say this as a parent, no parent gets

481
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 3: it right. We are flawed, we make mistakes. I could

482
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 3: go I could do a whole episode with you on

483
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 3: every mothering mistake I've made. You know, and the gift

484
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 3: I can give to my children is to acknowledge them,

485
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,199
Speaker 3: not say well, I did my best. They don't need

486
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 3: to hear that and say here's where I know I

487
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 3: went wrong, and I recognize where I was flawed, and

488
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 3: I'm really, deeply, heartly sorry for how this could have

489
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 3: hurt you, But I recognize it didn't shape them. They'll

490
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 3: go on to the next gener they'll make their own mistakes.

491
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 3: But I think the issue of generations past because emotional

492
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 3: speaking in emotional terms is really only something we've been

493
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,640
Speaker 3: doing well for maybe the last twenty five to thirty years,

494
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 3: even made it important, and I think generationally we see patterns.

495
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 3: So this is a real balancing act, I've got to

496
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 3: tell you. And there's no one size fits all to

497
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 3: the two of you. I say this, there's people out

498
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 3: there listening who were deeply, deeply hurt by their parents,

499
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 3: and I don't think they ever need to feel that

500
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 3: they owe anyone an apology, least of all your parents.

501
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 3: Your parents had a job to raise you. It's on

502
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 3: them to take They're always going to be the grown ups.

503
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 3: And I don't even care if you're fifty six years old,

504
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 3: the parents are still the grown ups. You know, there

505
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 3: is a responsibility taking on their site. So for some

506
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 3: people say I can't forgive this, I say to them,

507
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 3: that's okay, that's okay. You don't need anyone's permission for that.

508
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 3: Some people are on the fence and they say, I

509
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 3: understand what they came from. This really hurt. You can

510
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 3: still find that sweet spot, but that's swee spot. Can't

511
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 3: be naive. It can't be well, we're just going to

512
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 3: pretend that never happened, or one day they're going to

513
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 3: get it, or it's all okay, or my knees aren't

514
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 3: that important. That's not healthy. You can say, these incredibly

515
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 3: limited human beings who didn't get it, got it really

516
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,479
Speaker 3: wrong where I was concerned. I can set boundaries. Self

517
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 3: preservation is a right for me. I can enter this

518
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 3: relationship on terms that are comfortable for me, and these

519
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 3: people may never ever have that moment when they see

520
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 3: the light. You don't wait for that. Everyone waits for

521
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 3: that deathbed confession. Most people don't get it. So if

522
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 3: you're going to continue engaging with parents who just really

523
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 3: especially narcissistic parents who got it wrong, you are going

524
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 3: to have to have realistic expectations and radical acceptance and

525
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 3: above all else. Don't personalize your parents' stuff. That was them.

526
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 3: It may have shaped you, but it's not yours to carry.

527
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 3: It's not your load, it's not your burden. Put it down.

528
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 4: Wow, might drop That was so deep. Your knees are

529
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 4: validated and valued. And everyone waits for the deathbed confession

530
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 4: and many people don't get it. Someone really needed to

531
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 4: hear that.

532
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 5: Yes, and this piece of radical acceptance, what does that

533
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 5: look like in real life?

534
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 3: It is complicated. It's funny. I talked to more than

535
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 3: a few people about this in the last few days.

536
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 3: It's to me, radical acceptance is not a moment when

537
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 3: it happens and then you see the light and the

538
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 3: angels sing. It's not that at all. It is for everyone.

539
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 3: I think that these narcissistic relationships with parents with anyone.

540
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 3: Some people don't even come into the realization of how

541
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 3: narcissistic their parents were until the forties or even fifties.

542
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 3: Like this is not something that like eighteen years old,

543
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 3: Oh no, I got it, but I'm amazed I get

544
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 3: I see clients in the early twenties and they get it,

545
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 3: and I actually envy them because at a relatively young age,

546
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 3: they're setting themselves free and sometimes maybe freeing themselves from

547
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 3: that bad marriage you enter because you didn't recognize you're

548
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 3: just replicating the patterns that you got from your narcissistic parents.

549
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 3: I really credit those young people brave enough to come

550
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 3: into therapy and do it. I also want to site

551
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 3: before I answer that, though, I want to cycle back

552
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 3: to a point you made, which is a very important

553
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 3: one around shame, and I really want to talk about

554
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 3: that because I think it's an important one for people

555
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 3: to hear. Many people who come from narcissistic family systems

556
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 3: which may have faked to the world like they put

557
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 3: out the Christmas cards and their Sunday best in all

558
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 3: of it, and the world will say, Wow, you all

559
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 3: have it all together, don't you. But only you knew

560
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 3: the truth, right, you knew what was happening, And there's

561
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 3: so much shame about that disconnect, like this is an

562
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 3: incredibly dysfunctional family. We are lying to the world, and

563
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 3: you lose your authenticity when you keep carrying your family's

564
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 3: lives right. That loss of authenticity and the shame with

565
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 3: that is what leads to a lot of dysfunctional adult behavior.

566
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 3: That's where we do all the stuff that continues to

567
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 3: make us feel shamed as adults. So to have that

568
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 3: moment of on to see you're like, no, this family

569
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 3: is a hot mess and cruel and abusive and invalidating.

570
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 3: That's a tough moment because other people don't want to

571
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 3: hear it, like you really are probably not going to

572
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 3: get in buy in from all your brothers and sisters

573
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 3: and aunties and uncles and all that. They're going to say,

574
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 3: don't talk smack about the family, you know, And to

575
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 3: be that one voice that says this is sick, you're

576
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 3: often give me the one who's ostracized. So many people

577
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 3: who come to that awareness of the narcissistic family system,

578
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,959
Speaker 3: there's a tremendous amount of shame that goes with that,

579
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,959
Speaker 3: and with that shame goes a lot of grief because

580
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 3: they say, I just this whole vision I had that

581
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 3: I'm from a happy family doesn't exist. You know, this

582
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 3: is all a lie. I lived a lie. And it

583
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 3: is a very very painful moment in adulthood when people

584
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 3: have to almost reconstruct this entire image in their head

585
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 3: of what their life was and own the honest story.

586
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 3: I got to tell you to look at a forty

587
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 3: year old client who then says, oh my gosh, I

588
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 3: been selling the world this whole story about what a

589
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 3: great guy my dad is and how cool my mom was,

590
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,479
Speaker 3: and they were actually kind of monsters. And that's a

591
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 3: tough awakening. And then a lot of people say I

592
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 3: feel bad saying this. They're old now, Like, that's where

593
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 3: therapy becomes important. It's a private space. I don't want

594
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 3: to lose that point. And let me go back to

595
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 3: your the next question. So radical acceptance is that moment

596
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 3: where you're saying, this is who this person is. Limitations.

597
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 3: They don't see me. They're not going to validate me.

598
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 3: Because think about what a kid does. They jump through

599
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 3: hoops and jump through hoops and jump through hoops and

600
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 3: hope that somebody will notice them. We'll see them. But

601
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 3: all a child really wants is to be loved unconditionally,

602
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 3: and every child has the right to that. Most children

603
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 3: don't get it. So when the child learns that unconditional

604
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 3: love isn't coming, they're like, all right, I'm going to

605
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 3: try this whole conditional thing, and I'm going to earn

606
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 3: their love somehow, right, And so they keep trying to

607
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 3: earn it, earn it I'm going to be pretty, I'm

608
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 3: going to be tall. I'm going to be good at this.

609
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 3: I'm going to be good at that. I'm going to

610
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 3: tell them everything they want. I'm going to agree with them.

611
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 3: I'm going to marry the wrong person. I'm going to

612
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 3: live the wrong life. I'm going to do what they want,

613
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 3: because someday this hoop jumping is going to be them

614
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 3: seeing me. Your parents are never going to see if

615
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 3: they're not seeing you, they're not seeing you. That's on them,

616
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 3: that's just who they are, especially if they're very narcissistic parents.

617
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 3: Now the issue becomes that day when you say, ah,

618
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 3: they're never going to see me, They're never going to

619
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 3: get me. I came up short in the parent lottery,

620
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 3: Like that's just that's what. That's the story here. And

621
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 3: I have to accept this person's limitations and you have

622
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 3: to own it. And when that day comes, you are

623
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 3: able to set the boundaries, you are able to have

624
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 3: the expectations. Now, does that mean radical acceptance lifts the

625
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 3: burden and you're never hurt. Oh heck no, you're going

626
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 3: to be hurt a thousand times over because you're going

627
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 3: to keep grieving not having gotten that unconditional love. You're

628
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 3: going to grieve not having that kind of successful relationship

629
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 3: with a parent that would have helped you grow, which

630
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,719
Speaker 3: have helped you feel safe in the world. You're grieving

631
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 3: all the losses that came off of that. And with

632
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 3: radical acceptance, I often say it's something that recalibrates. You'll

633
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 3: have these moments, months, sometimes years of like I got it,

634
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 3: I've set the boundaries, and then you know what, life happens.

635
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 3: A parent may become sick, there may be a family wedding,

636
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 3: something might happen in life, and you get pulled into

637
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 3: the vortex again and then you have to almost recalibrate

638
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 3: your whole radical acceptance thing. But it's like, I see

639
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 3: this for what it is, and this is a mess,

640
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 3: and it was hurtful and it was invalidating, and it

641
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 3: wasn't acceptable, and above all else, it was not my fault.

642
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 3: I am not responsible for my parents' behavior, even though

643
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 3: it hurt me and even though it shaped the trajectory

644
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 3: of my life. So yeah, it's personal, but it's not

645
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 3: personal because it was about you, it was about them.

646
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 3: It just ended up shaping your life.

647
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 2: That is so powerful.

648
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 4: And doctor Rominey when did I know. We talked about

649
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 4: shame of it. When is it time to cut the

650
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 4: parent off? And how do you replace that parental energy

651
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 4: in your life? You know, if you're seeking that mother

652
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 4: or father figure after you cut them off.

653
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 3: That's an amazing question. And I'll tell you there's again,

654
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 3: it's no one size fits all for a lot of people,

655
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 3: for reasons of culture, society, you know, only childness, whatever

656
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 3: it is. Some people can't get there. They'll say, let

657
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 3: me tell you a beautiful story, because I think this

658
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 3: story captures it in a very interesting way. It was

659
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 3: a woman I interviewed for Don't You Know Who I Am,

660
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 3: my most recent book, and this was a woman who

661
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 3: was one of I think four or five kids, and

662
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,719
Speaker 3: the father was just a complete, ragingly narcissistic jerk. The

663
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 3: mom had divorced him years ago. As you know, the

664
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 3: people like him burn a lot of bridges, and as

665
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 3: he was getting older, he really lived in a very limited,

666
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 3: not very nice, one bedroom apartment, really didn't have any friends,

667
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 3: didn't have a life. He'd already retired. Of these four

668
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 3: or five kids, the person I interviewed was the one

669
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 3: person every two weeks she would drive that I think

670
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 3: he lives one or two hours away from her. She'd

671
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 3: drive that distance with groceries and some prepared food. He

672
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 3: couldn't afford anyone to clean. She'd drive to his house.

673
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 3: She put away some prepare little food, put the food away,

674
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 3: check the cleanliness of the space, run a load of laundry,

675
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 3: set a timer, sit with him, eat, watch the TV show,

676
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 3: and get up. And she said, I can't stand the man.

677
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 3: I don't actually don't even care about the day he dies.

678
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 3: I don't care. And I said, why do you go?

679
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 3: And she said, I do this for me. I'm a

680
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,839
Speaker 3: good woman. This is what I would. This is a

681
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 3: pathetic old man who lives by himself, who is so

682
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 3: toxic and poisonous no one wants to be near him.

683
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 3: And he broke me. She said, I will never marry.

684
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 3: I don't have what it takes to have a relationship,

685
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 3: you know, a long term relationship that my entire life

686
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 3: broke me of all of that. However, I refuse to

687
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 3: let him take away one of the most beautiful things

688
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 3: about me, which is my compassion. And I know this

689
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 3: pathetic old man lives here. So I bring the food

690
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 3: and she said, you know, I do it I don't

691
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 3: do it for him. I do it for me because

692
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 3: when he drops dead, I'll be the only one to

693
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 3: show up at that funeral. I honestly don't care, but

694
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 3: I will let him go with peace. She did it

695
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 3: for her now that I don't think it's self serving

696
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 3: at all. I actually thought it was a very interesting

697
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 3: approach to this, because she said, I want to be

698
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 3: able to release him when he passes. I don't need

699
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 3: to carry this weight one day longer than I will.

700
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 3: I already have, and it was an interesting approach. He said,

701
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 3: I don't care what he has to say. I don't

702
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 3: care anything. She's like, every word coming out of his

703
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 3: mouth has no meaning to me. I just do this,

704
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 3: and she'sai and there's almost something zen about it, you know,

705
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,280
Speaker 3: like she found this rhythm with it. Now that said,

706
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 3: I also work with many people who have gone absolutely

707
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 3: no contact. They say there was too much water under

708
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 3: the bridge, too many hurts. In some cases, there's this

709
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 3: severe stuff, for example, a parent who may have shielded

710
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,879
Speaker 3: someone who is sexually abusing them as a child. Some

711
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 3: things cannot be forgiven, and some people yet do forgive that,

712
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 3: but they say I can't, and to which I say,

713
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 3: anybody who feels the need to go down contact. You

714
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 3: don't need anyone else's permission but your own. And I

715
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 3: think the struggle is that people go to the world

716
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 3: at large, I want permission, you ain't going to get it.

717
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 3: Because this stuff really threatens people, this idea that you

718
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 3: go no contact with your family. It can be courageous,

719
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 3: it can be destabilizing, but most people it threatens their

720
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 3: whole happy family fantasy. So I tell people, don't roll

721
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 3: this one out as a public thing. This is something

722
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 3: you do in your therapy, you do in your safe spaces.

723
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 3: Because I can guarantee you you're not going to get

724
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 3: a lot of buy in. And so I think that

725
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 3: that is a very personal decision. I mean, because I've

726
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 3: seen cases that are absolutely horrific where people still have

727
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 3: contact with the parents, and I've seen cases that almost

728
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 3: seem a little mild and they have cut off the

729
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 3: parent and no judgment on either side. I think that

730
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 3: it's really that what feels right for you and allows

731
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,879
Speaker 3: you to grow into your authentic self. Some people sort

732
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 3: of keep showing up, or one parent is healthy and

733
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 3: one parent is deeply narcissistic. The healthy parent may still

734
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 3: be somewhat codependent with a narcissistic parent, but they love

735
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 3: the healthy parent, so they may participate still in that

736
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 3: parental unit for the sake of the healthy parent. It's

737
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 3: almost like they'll view it as a deal with the devil,

738
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,399
Speaker 3: you know. And so, and I always tell people, as

739
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 3: you may do this decision making, please be with it.

740
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,800
Speaker 3: Please work with a therapist who understands these issues, because

741
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 3: I think if you're with a therapist who's sort of

742
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,879
Speaker 3: obsessed with forgiveness and family harmony could do a lot

743
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 3: of harm to you. So you need to have a

744
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 3: therapist who gets it and who does especially someone who

745
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 3: might understands narcissism, somebody who might understand trauma, and get

746
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 3: in there and do the work and then make that

747
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,359
Speaker 3: decision that's for you, because you have to figure out

748
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 3: what journey you need to take with your parents to

749
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 3: be able to release these demons. Ooh, that you know

750
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 3: the story you shared.

751
00:37:52,680 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 5: I'm sitting with that and I am just blown away

752
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 5: by like you described, like her, that zimness that.

753
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 3: It took.

754
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 5: And my assumption is that also she has been doing

755
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 5: the work on herself, has been in therapy to get

756
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 5: to that space, to say, this is the decision that

757
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 5: I'm making, and I'm truly making it for my own piece.

758
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, and I but look at the part of

759
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 3: her story she said, I had to recognize that things happened,

760
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 3: that this familial relationship, this father relationship, was so toxic

761
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 3: that it undercut her own capacity for things like closeness, intimacy.

762
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 3: She had a lot of contempt for men. And so

763
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 3: she she's like, listen, I lost part of my journey.

764
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,240
Speaker 3: I did not get married, I did not have children.

765
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 3: She had a very successful career. I mean, she had

766
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 3: found others, but think of what she lost, you know,

767
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 3: I mean there, and she said, like, listen, I did

768
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 3: the work, and I also realized that I got myself

769
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 3: to a point and I've created to life where I

770
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,439
Speaker 3: feel safe and for her, safety was everything and didn't

771
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 3: even want to run the risk of the invalidation. You know. Again,

772
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 3: no journey is to be judged in that way, you know.

773
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,760
Speaker 3: So she really she carried the hurt, but for her

774
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 3: as part of the cleansing, as part of the authenticity piece,

775
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 3: which is so key here because to me, narcissism is

776
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 3: the opposite of authenticity. We frank with you, So when

777
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 3: you're around it, it's hard to be authentic and so

778
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 3: as a result, it's as you do the work. It's

779
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 3: being able to push yourself through and say I can

780
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 3: still be me in the face of this. They won't.

781
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 3: And it's hard when you've grown and worked so hard

782
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 3: to be your best self and have that best self

783
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 3: invalidated or mocked or belittled or trivialized. Feels terrible. It

784
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 3: feels absolutely terrible. It's like putting out the sanctity of

785
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 3: yourself to have someone desecrated, and to which I say,

786
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 3: no one can desecrate you. You can always hold And

787
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 3: I actually have been calling it this. I call it

788
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 3: soul distancing. And everyone talks about social distancing. Well, a

789
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 3: bunch of people are having to quarantine with people they

790
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 3: can't stand. And I say, you may not be able

791
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 3: to soul distance. Take that sacred part of you, your soul,

792
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,760
Speaker 3: and hold it in and do not let those toxic

793
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 3: people near it. You can do that even if you're

794
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 3: six feet away from them. You can hold it back.

795
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 4: Oh goodness, this is so good. And I know we

796
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 4: are going to move into our next segment very soon.

797
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,439
Speaker 4: But two last questions. Doctor Ronie how do you deal

798
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 4: with the narcissists that you cannot avoid, the ones that

799
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 4: you're like, oh, I can't get this person off, or

800
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 4: I work with them, but you know that they're narcissistic.

801
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 4: How do you deal with those folks.

802
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:36,919
Speaker 3: Using a technique I call book nding and booke nding

803
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 3: works like this. You know you're going to see them,

804
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 3: So let's use your work example. Now, these days, for

805
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 3: some people it's changed because we're working remotely, but you

806
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 3: still need a narcissist can still be narcissistic on zoom.

807
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:52,399
Speaker 3: It's something I've learned by the way. What let's say

808
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 3: it's old and days right, or it's the future, and

809
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 3: you're going to be with this person in person, and

810
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 3: you know they're going to be at that meeting at

811
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 3: ten o'clock. One of the biggest mistakes you will make

812
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 3: is a walk right in. So I always say to people,

813
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 3: I say, I want you to do so what I

814
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 3: call some narcissistic yoga. Many people don't know this. Yoga

815
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 3: is not exercise. Actually, yoga is preparation of the body

816
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 3: to engage in worships. So the ancient practice of yoga

817
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 3: and Hinduism is really something to prepare the person to

818
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 3: engage in pujo, which is worship to receive sacred energy. Right,

819
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 3: So if we view it that way, this yoga would

820
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 3: be how do you prepare your mind and your soul

821
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 3: to go into a toxic space. And I've said to people,

822
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 3: if you have a private office, that would be great,

823
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 3: go to a restroom stall if you don't have that,

824
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 3: and take some deep breaths, have an internal mantra you

825
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 3: can say, really let that breath out and say, okay,

826
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 3: I'm going in. I am not going to personalize this.

827
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 3: I am more than enough that I can pull the

828
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 3: nuggets out of there I need to hear. I do

829
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 3: not need to engage with this person. And you say

830
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 3: all of that, and you're now you're in the zone,

831
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 3: and you go into the meeting and you're prepared. Now

832
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 3: the narcissist blah blah blah does all their damage, whether

833
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 3: it's for an hour, whether it's for eight hours. Now

834
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 3: you've come to the end of the day. And the

835
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,919
Speaker 3: other mistake people make is that they just go right

836
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 3: the commute or whatever. Now you need a detox. You

837
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 3: got to get rid of their toxins. I say, you

838
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 3: need some kind of ritual on the back end. That

839
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 3: could be anything from lighting a candle to having a

840
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 3: tea that it's not magic. It's not like ooh, the

841
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 3: magic tea. It's a ritual to say I am releasing this,

842
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 3: I am releasing this toxic energy, and I'm going to

843
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 3: drink this tea and have my candle. I'm letting this go.

844
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 3: It could be meditation, it could be mindfulness. It could

845
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 3: be I can let this go. I'm done, I've done

846
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 3: my part. But when it's intentional and it's book ended,

847
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 3: you've prepared yourself. You don't take the bait, you don't

848
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 3: over engage, you get the job done. But on the

849
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 3: back end of the day, you're kind to yourself. Might

850
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 3: even be a bath when you get home, you might

851
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 3: go to bedterly or whatever. It looks like. Boom, you've

852
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 3: actually been in intentional rather than running into the meeting not

853
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 3: being prepared, over engaging, getting beaten up, being really angry

854
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, jumping on the freeway, cursing, angry,

855
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 3: going home and yelling at other people, that's not how

856
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 3: this could go. Bookend it, and you can actually help

857
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 3: yourself feel like you're more in control of the situation.

858
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 2: I love that set the intention.

859
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, so yes, I love that.

860
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 5: That really was so amazing, and so I like that

861
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 5: that was a tip for how to deal with that

862
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:39,240
Speaker 5: narcissistic coworker. But can you give us a few quick

863
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 5: tips on how to recover from being raised by that

864
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 5: narcissistic parent? And I know we've kind of touch, we've

865
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 5: kind of talked about different strategies, but if you can

866
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 5: lay it out for us, like maybe five tips that

867
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 5: you would highly recommend to recover from being raised by

868
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 5: a narcissistic parent.

869
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 3: Number One, realistic expectations. Okay, they've been like this your

870
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 3: whole life. You've known this your whole life. You're seeing

871
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 3: it as an adult. You can go back, you can

872
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 3: look at those family pictures and say, oh, this was

873
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 3: actually a miserable day. Realistic expectations. The way they've behaved

874
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 3: for the first thirty years of your life, you can

875
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 3: pretty much set a clock on the fact that they're

876
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 3: going to keep behaving like this. Right, It hasn't change,

877
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 3: So don't go in thinking that this is the day

878
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 3: they're going to notice you. Okay. Number Two, work towards

879
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,359
Speaker 3: radical acceptance so you can fully accept your parent where

880
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 3: they're at, because that's going to make it easier if

881
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 3: you decide to maintain a relationship to do so in

882
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 3: a way that's self protective. And if you decide to

883
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 3: go no contact with them, it's because you're very aware

884
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:47,320
Speaker 3: of the picture. Number three, minimize your engagement, like figure

885
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 3: out the things you can talk about. Listen, there's some

886
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,399
Speaker 3: things you can't do. They're third rails. They're triggering their

887
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,320
Speaker 3: evocative and you're going to go down the same rabbit

888
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 3: hole every time. Minimize that engagement. Make a list of

889
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 3: topics you can talk about out that won't get people

890
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 3: worked up. Prepare ahead of time. You could talk about

891
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 3: the weather, you could talk about look at that the

892
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 3: neighbors change their mailbox, or people stealing the mail whatever.

893
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,359
Speaker 3: I mean, it's all superficial. People say, well, that's not

894
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 3: very fun. I want a deep relationship with my parents.

895
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 3: That shift sails. You have narcissistic parents, You're not going

896
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,439
Speaker 3: to have any deep relationship, so let it go. That's

897
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 3: your radical acceptance. And number four, stop personalizing, because I

898
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 3: think that what ends up happening, especially when it's your parent,

899
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 3: like this is me, what is it about me? It's

900
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 3: not about you. They're the ones saying the messed up stuff.

901
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,839
Speaker 3: They're the ones who aren't noticing this is. You could

902
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 3: put anyone in your chair and they would be doing

903
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 3: something similar. You're like, no, no, no, they don't do

904
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 3: that to my brother. They don't do that to your

905
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 3: brother because your brother is their strange golden child who

906
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 3: still brings basketball trophies home to them. Let's talk when

907
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 3: that stops, you know, so like, understand who the players are,

908
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 3: but stop personalizing this. You're just playing a little weird

909
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 3: role in their puppets show. And you can decide whenever

910
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,280
Speaker 3: you want to pull out of that puppet show. Okay.

911
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 3: And then number five, whether it's through therapy, coaching, whatever

912
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 3: it takes, figure out what you want this to look like.

913
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 3: You are an adult. Okay, Now it's time to take responsibility.

914
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 3: When we're with our parents, we forever feel like we're

915
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 3: five or six, and it is painful. The reason I

916
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,800
Speaker 3: suggest therapy is once you realize you have a narcissistic parent,

917
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 3: you're talking about a complex set of things about having

918
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 3: to potentially work on trauma. You're definitely working on grief.

919
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 3: You may be working on self concept, and you're definitely

920
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 3: going to work on when you have a narcissistic parent,

921
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 3: you start to even lose the plot on who am I?

922
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 3: Because I've been living for them so long, I don't

923
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 3: even know what I stand for. Therapy becomes the place

924
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 3: you do that. But that those five things are at

925
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 3: a minimum, the things one would need to do to

926
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 3: start separating those sticky ties, almost those codependent ties at times,

927
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 3: or trauma bonda ties. It's your narcissistic parental relationships.

928
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 2: I am just.

929
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 4: Blown away right now, and I know we're going to

930
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 4: move on to our next segment, but I cannot wait

931
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 4: to listen to this episode.

932
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 2: Okay, and I mean that with all seriousness.

933
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 3: Thank you?

934
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 4: All right, So, yes, doctor Romedy, You're so welcome and

935
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 4: so doctor Romedy, because we recognize, appreciate, and celebrate the

936
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 4: multifaceted woman, and we believe that it's okay to be

937
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 4: classy and ratchet and you can still be elegant and

938
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 4: dance to strip club music. We invite you to the

939
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 4: oh you clatch it segment?

940
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:33,280
Speaker 2: So do you take on the challenge, Doctor Romedy?

941
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 3: Absolutely do? Oh I love it.

942
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:40,359
Speaker 7: I would like to hear this go ahead, dom Okay,

943
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 7: So question Number one, what is the most spontaneous thing

944
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 7: You've ever done?

945
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 3: The most spontaneous thing I have ever done? Wow, I

946
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 3: need a minute on that one. I would say that

947
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 3: there was a friend who once said, Hey, you want

948
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 3: to go on a trip, and I said, sure, how

949
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 3: about Tibet? And I think in three weeks we went

950
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 3: to Tibet like that was about us. Mountaneous is a

951
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 3: guy like we had to get these visas and it

952
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 3: was this whole thing, and she's an amazing travel like literally,

953
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:22,879
Speaker 3: I think we threw this thing together like in less

954
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 3: than a month going to our trip. Sure Tibet, Yeah,

955
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 3: good bye.

956
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 2: So we went.

957
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 3: It was a memorable trip in my life. And she's

958
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 3: an amazing travel buddy. So yeah, that would be that.

959
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 2: That sounds so amazing. I wish we could do that now. Right,

960
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,240
Speaker 2: one day we'll be able to do that and I can't.

961
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 3: Tibet and people are beautiful, it's beautiful, beautiful trip.

962
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh goodness, I love it. All right. Our second

963
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 2: question for you, what is your biggest pet? Peeve?

964
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 3: My narcissism.

965
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 2: That's not a.

966
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 3: Surprise, okay, So I'm going with that, and I would

967
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 3: and I would say, actually, let's boil that down. My

968
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 3: biggest pet peeve isn't title man, people who think that

969
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 3: they deserve special treatments, that the rules don't apply to them,

970
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 3: that they're hypocrites, Like I don't like it.

971
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 6: That makes sense to me.

972
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 5: Okay, what is your biggest guilty pleasure, Candy Crush?

973
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 3: I know, I just want twenty ikes point. Similarly, I

974
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,359
Speaker 3: am not kidding you. My days are so heavy and

975
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 3: the things here are so heavy, and I do I

976
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 3: do read. I try to read the books my daughter,

977
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 3: the novels my daughter reads for school, because it makes

978
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,959
Speaker 3: you wonderful conversations. But then there's a point. We're reading

979
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 3: this amazing novel right now called Swing Time by Zadie Smith.

980
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 3: It's amazing, but it's such a good book. But I

981
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 3: got to tell you, there's a point at which I

982
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 3: just turd on the good old candy crush because it's meaningless.

983
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, look, the proobale gamings are lining up,

984
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 3: and it is my little strange, thick, mindful moment because

985
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 3: I'm not even in it to win it. I just

986
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 3: like how it looks when all the things blow up,

987
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,360
Speaker 3: and it was people are what are you doing? And

988
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 3: I'm like no shame, no shame with the candy crush,

989
00:49:58,120 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 3: just candy crushing.

990
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and doctor Rominy.

991
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 4: What this is a little little it's kind of tied

992
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:04,359
Speaker 4: to the last question.

993
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 2: But what do you do for fun?

994
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,280
Speaker 3: What do I do for fun? Not enough I would

995
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 3: say that for fun I will. I never make that

996
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 3: much time to watch Netflix. So when I can find it,

997
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 3: I just when I can find a good series, and

998
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 3: this is the name on Netflix. I just finished Homeland,

999
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 3: which blew my mind how it ended. That was magnificent.

1000
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 3: So when I can find a good Netflix show, I

1001
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 3: will say that's something I will do for fun because

1002
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 3: I rarely, I say maybe once a week for an

1003
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 3: hour week I watch TV. So take me a thousand

1004
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,359
Speaker 3: years to watch a series. I do love to. You know,

1005
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 3: back in the day, I did a lot more things

1006
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 3: for fun I would. I was a hiker. It was

1007
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 3: a major traveler. I love to travel, you know. So,

1008
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 3: but I'm actually come up real short, and that's in

1009
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:47,399
Speaker 3: that area. I'm not good at having fun. When I'm

1010
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 3: with my partner. He's a lovely man and patient, and

1011
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 3: so sometimes fun is like literally the spontaneous conversation we

1012
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 3: have when we stop at the dining table and talk

1013
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,320
Speaker 3: to each other. I have two amazing daughters, and sometimes

1014
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 3: our fun is like we'll play one of these silly games,

1015
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,280
Speaker 3: like your pronounced words that are not the right words.

1016
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,439
Speaker 3: In some game it takes your picture like I don't

1017
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 3: get it, or they'll show me TikTok and I'll be confused.

1018
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 3: Make a TikTok and I'll be complet And so I

1019
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 3: think that it's like I try to capture the joy

1020
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 3: of the spontaneous moments of the people I love, because

1021
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 3: there's for me, they're so rare with how hard I've

1022
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 3: been working lately. And then beyond that, if I can

1023
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,359
Speaker 3: find a good TV series, I'm on it reading because

1024
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 3: I love reading other people's you know, beautiful words. And

1025
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 3: then you know, of course candy crush, so we've always

1026
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 3: got that.

1027
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, okay, So we want to thank you so much.

1028
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:40,799
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1029
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 5: I have really enjoyed this conversation, and I know that

1030
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 5: you know, I appreciate how we were able to end

1031
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 5: with like the fun question, because I I do recognize

1032
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 5: that the work that you do is really heavy, like

1033
00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 5: you said it, like you when we're dealing with no arcissism,

1034
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 5: there is so much trauma in that yes, And I

1035
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 5: just am so appreciative of you for doing the work

1036
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 5: because I know that not a lot of fellow psychologists

1037
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 5: like I know that not a lot of us truly

1038
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:22,479
Speaker 5: dive into this work. And so for you to take

1039
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:27,320
Speaker 5: this on, I think, I'm just so grateful.

1040
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 3: Well, that's so kind of you. You know it to me,

1041
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 3: I have to tell you working with clients and unlocking

1042
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 3: this one piece of the art. You know, it's national

1043
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 3: mental health It's yeah, National Mental Health Month this month,

1044
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 3: and I have found that unlocking this one piece of

1045
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 3: the puzzle for many people. They'll say, I've been spinning

1046
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 3: my wheels in therapy for six years, and if this

1047
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,400
Speaker 3: one thing had been explained to me in these simple terms,

1048
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 3: I totally would have set myself free. It's almost like

1049
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 3: watching somebody lose fifty pounds in front of you, because

1050
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 3: they're like, this wasn't me. I'm like, no, there's an explanation.

1051
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 3: They said, why didn't somebody you tell me? I'm like,

1052
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 3: you know again, as a psychologist, you now know because

1053
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:06,439
Speaker 3: a lot of people don't get trained in this. As

1054
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,279
Speaker 3: a graduate stud I didn't even get one whole course

1055
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:14,280
Speaker 3: in personality disorders, not one wow, And everything I got

1056
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 3: was in supervision, you know, reading, doing research, but it

1057
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 3: was all very much having to get it as catch

1058
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 3: as catch can. I just think that the reluctance of

1059
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:25,400
Speaker 3: the field to talk about these patterns is doing no

1060
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 3: one any favors. And I'm watching people get set free.

1061
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 3: I'm like, now now that I know that this is

1062
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 3: a thing, I don't feel like I failed at everything.

1063
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:36,359
Speaker 3: They're like and they're not angry, They're like, now I

1064
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:40,320
Speaker 3: get it, and they're able to again release these kinds

1065
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,839
Speaker 3: of demons. And then again they lighten up. I see

1066
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:45,879
Speaker 3: people have you know, they seem less depressed. You see

1067
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 3: less apathy, you see less anxiety. I mean, it's a

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Speaker 3: pretty and I'm not saying this supplies universally, but in

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00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 3: numerous cases, this was the massive piece of the puzzle

1070
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 3: that once you had it, you saw the whole picture.

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00:53:57,360 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 4: This is just so incredible, and doctor Rominey, we just

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00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 4: again want to thank you for your taking thank you

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00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:03,800
Speaker 4: for you being a light in the world and having

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00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:06,880
Speaker 4: these difficult conversations doing this heavy work, and we just

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00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 4: honor you, we celebrate you, and we're just so grateful.

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00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:10,800
Speaker 2: Thank you for joining us in her Space.

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00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 3: Thanks.

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00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 6: Hey lady, it's doctor Dom here from the her Space Podcast.

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00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 6: Do you have a burning question you're dying to get

1080
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 6: feedback on? Do you want an unbiased perspective on a

1081
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 6: situation you're facing. If so, visit her spacepodcast dot com

1082
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 6: and click ask doctor Dom under the start here option.

1083
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 6: Every Tuesday, I'll choose a few questions and answer them

1084
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:34,840
Speaker 6: at random.

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00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 3: Thanks.

1086
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 5: Thanks for joining us today in her Space. Please note

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00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 5: that our show may contain conversations about self health, advice,

1088
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:48,400
Speaker 5: self empowerment, and mental health, but it is by no

1089
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 5: means meant to be a substitute for an ongoing formal

1090
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 5: relationship with a trained mental health provider. If you are

1091
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 5: someone you know is in need of mental health care,

1092
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:04,240
Speaker 5: please visit the Therapy for Black Girls directory Psychology today

1093
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 5: or contact your insurance provider.

1094
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 4: If you liked what you heard and want to keep

1095
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:12,319
Speaker 4: the conversation going, connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and

1096
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:17,320
Speaker 4: Twitter at her Space podcast, or check out our website

1097
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 4: at Herspace podcast dot com. And before we meet again,

1098
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:25,760
Speaker 4: repeat after me, There's something inside of me that's bigger

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00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 4: than any obstacle.

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Speaker 6: We'll see you next week, Lady,