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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Now to a bit

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Speaker 1: of a different conversation, Caroline. John Brown spent forty two

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Speaker 1: years at BP, where as CEO, he famously led the

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Speaker 1: firms beyond Petroleum green reband as the firm acknowledged the

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Speaker 1: reality of climate change. Now he's going right back to

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Speaker 1: the beginning. He's running to become chancellor of the University

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Speaker 1: of Cambridge, which is a city where he both studied

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Speaker 1: and was raised. He's campaigning on the promise of bringing

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Speaker 1: a focus on sustainability, science and global engagement to the

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Speaker 1: ancient university. Will his years in the city stand him

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Speaker 1: in good stead. I'm pleased to say we're joined by

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Speaker 1: John Brown now and John Lovely to have you on

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Speaker 1: the program with us. I want to start with Cambridge

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Speaker 1: because you've occupied many an illustrious role. What is it

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Speaker 1: about the post of chancellor that attracts you and why

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Speaker 1: is it now?

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Speaker 2: Well, the great universities of the UK are different UK

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Speaker 2: from many other places in the world. They're right up

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Speaker 2: in the front and they make a very big difference

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Speaker 2: to society, to economic growth and to the state and

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Speaker 2: condition of society. And I believe I have a seat

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Speaker 2: at lots of tables. I left BP eighteen years ago

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Speaker 2: and I've been doing a whole variety of things since then,

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Speaker 2: which has given me a seat at the table to

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Speaker 2: allow me to have influence but not control over what

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Speaker 2: the universities will do to flourish for the future. And

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Speaker 2: Cambridge is a very important university in the world.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, Why is the British government not issuing a more wide,

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Speaker 3: open armed welcome to students and researchers who can't or

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Speaker 3: don't want to remain in the US. As higher education

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Speaker 3: in the US is under enormous pressure to change according

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Speaker 3: to the Trump administrations of wishes, Why does the British

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Speaker 3: government And would you issue that welcome if you were

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Speaker 3: to be the chancellor at Cambridge, a really open armed

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Speaker 3: welcome to any students out of the US.

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Speaker 2: Well, look, I think the Cambridge University is built on

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Speaker 2: great people. Excellence is the big big point of Cambridge

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Speaker 2: and they have always had open arms for absolutely everybody.

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Speaker 2: So this is not just a new thing. It just

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Speaker 2: adds to what Cambridge does and I know that Cambridge

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Speaker 2: will do that. I think the government should do a

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Speaker 2: lot in this area. I know the Royal Society and

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Speaker 2: the Royal Academy of Engineering are actually now going to

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Speaker 2: add funds to this and other institutions. I chair the

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Speaker 2: Creek Institute, Big Biomedical Institute, and we're bringing forward the

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Speaker 2: recruitment of some of our group leaders and we hope

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Speaker 2: that the US will provide a lot of the candidates

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Speaker 2: for there.

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Speaker 1: What part of your open eyes m Well can be

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Speaker 1: offering the opposite of Trump's anti woke push, an active

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Speaker 1: embrace of DEI.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think we embrace I think cambridg should embrace everything.

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Speaker 2: Cambridge stands for freedom of speech and freedom of investigation,

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Speaker 2: and that's very important. I believe that, you know, as

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Speaker 2: the saying goes, Cambridge is a place where they may

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Speaker 2: disagree with what people say. One party may disagree with

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Speaker 2: the other, but they will fight to allow that party

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Speaker 2: to say what they think. And I think that's where

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Speaker 2: this is how ideas are generated, how discoveries are made,

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Speaker 2: and how actually we make discoveries in science and technology

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Speaker 2: and make them applicable to society through the universal nature

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Speaker 2: of Cambridge, which is a place where humanities stand equal

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Speaker 2: to science, technology and mathematics.

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Speaker 3: Oxford and Cambridge are at the heart of this government's

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Speaker 3: plans for economic growth, and you hinted at it in

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Speaker 3: your first answer, how much do you think universities can

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Speaker 3: actually deliver for the chancellor? Rachel reeves in terms of

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Speaker 3: economic growth, it's a very difficult one for universities, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It always is difficult. But I think there are things

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Speaker 2: which are very important for universities and the areas around

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Speaker 2: universities to have in that armory. The first is we

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Speaker 2: need to agglomerate activity around certain universities. The more people

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Speaker 2: who are glomerated around the university, and you can see

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Speaker 2: this for example in Boston and the United States, the

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Speaker 2: more successful it becomes. It sort of has momentum and

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Speaker 2: allows people to go from one place to the other

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Speaker 2: to fail and succeed. Secondly, we need the ability to

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Speaker 2: translate the discoveryveries that are made in universities into the

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Speaker 2: commercial space, and that's happening around Cambridge. It's happening around

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Speaker 2: Oxford as well. But more needs to be done and

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Speaker 2: I welcome some of the efforts that the Chancellor's made

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Speaker 2: in getting the city to invest in the companies that

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Speaker 2: need growth capital generated in the United Kingdom. That's something

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Speaker 2: that the Council on Science and technology, which I Shair

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Speaker 2: has been pushing very hard over the last two governments,

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Speaker 2: and it's pleasing to see that something is now happening

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Speaker 2: that will create growth, because growth comes from ushoots of

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Speaker 2: economic activity, businesses formed, and there are plenty of people

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Speaker 2: around Cambridge who can do just that given the right conditions.

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Speaker 1: John, there's the growth issue, but there's also the inequality

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Speaker 1: issue when it comes to Cambridge, this famous divide between

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Speaker 1: town and gown.

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Speaker 2: What would you do to rest well? I think actually

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Speaker 2: I went up to Cambridge to test the town and

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Speaker 2: gown that I remember when I was there at primary school.

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Speaker 2: I think it's going away very quickly, no doubt. Cambridge

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Speaker 2: need is as a city and as a broader catchment

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Speaker 2: area benefits from the university, and the university benefits from

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Speaker 2: getting housing and infrastructure right around Cambridge, so that divide

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Speaker 2: I think has gone down quite a lot. I've spoken

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Speaker 2: to people in the Cambridge the Cambridge hierarchy, the city hierarchy,

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Speaker 2: and it's very different. What it does need, though, is

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Speaker 2: investment in infrastructure and of course some housing. Housing tends

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Speaker 2: to come along if you have the right infrastructure and

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Speaker 2: the government some of the public purse has to be

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Speaker 2: spent on getting that right.

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Speaker 3: I've spoken recently to the Vice to answered Deborah Apprentice

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Speaker 3: about the challenges posed by research funding and the lack

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Speaker 3: of research funding. How would you be able to influence

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Speaker 3: that in order to kind of build up research funding.

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Speaker 3: It again a kind of really critical time if Cambridge

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Speaker 3: wants to wants to deliver on its world class reputation.

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Speaker 2: It really is well. I think I've got these acts

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Speaker 2: at the table to help discussion on where research funding

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Speaker 2: could go. The governments are very important funder of research,

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Speaker 2: but so too as the private sector. But the government

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Speaker 2: provides a lot of seed funding and it's very important

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Speaker 2: to get that focused in areas where we have world

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Speaker 2: class capability. Biomedical activity in Cambridge, the AI activity in Cambridge,

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Speaker 2: the energy and energy transition activity in Cambridge. Arguably the

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Speaker 2: sum total of all people in these areas and more

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Speaker 2: are the best in the world and they need funding.

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Speaker 2: So they get a lot of funding. We need to

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Speaker 2: see if we can expand sources of funding not just

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Speaker 2: from the government but also from worldwide sources and particularly

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Speaker 2: from the private sector. So private sector will follow provided

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Speaker 2: that there's something they can see which is developed from

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Speaker 2: research into the commercial area.

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Speaker 1: I know that, I mean, you hint at it, but

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Speaker 1: there is the funding for research issue. But then you've

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Speaker 1: also got to actually get onto the AIM market, and

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Speaker 1: that's had record low new issues and a seventeen percent

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Speaker 1: plunge in market value in the first quarter. Is there

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Speaker 1: anything they think that could be done to revive that

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Speaker 1: so that you know, these great ideas can actually go

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Speaker 1: all the way to market and make some money, make

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Speaker 1: some growth.

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Speaker 2: So look, I've actually had both companies, have shared companies

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Speaker 2: go onto AIM and coming off a. AIM is full

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Speaker 2: of far too many small companies that need to be

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Speaker 2: in private hands for long. There's no doubt about that,

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Speaker 2: because there aren't enough analysts to follow stocks which are

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Speaker 2: very small. I think, you know, real IPOs nowadays need

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Speaker 2: probably five billion dollars of enterprise value in order to

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Speaker 2: succeed really well. So it's just that there are plenty

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Speaker 2: of choices for investors. So I think the private markets,

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Speaker 2: both venture of growth, equity and growth and private equity

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Speaker 2: buyout are the areas that people need to focus more

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Speaker 2: on to get finance for these smaller companies. I think

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Speaker 2: the public markets do have a role, but the public

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Speaker 2: markets are quite demanding in scale and track record, and

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Speaker 2: they're not for everybody. I don't think you know, any

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Speaker 2: CEO keeps saying my ambition is to float the company,

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Speaker 2: is I think not saying the right thing. Surely the

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Speaker 2: ambition is to build a great product that fits into

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Speaker 2: a market that continues to not to necessarily.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Love Brown, thank you so much for being with

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Speaker 3: us this morning. It's very good to speak to you.

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Speaker 3: We are speaking to John Brown. Of course, you did

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Speaker 3: spend a long time at BP. I think it would

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Speaker 3: be remiss not to ask you, given your hugely prominent

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Speaker 3: role there, how much of a loss it would be

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Speaker 3: to the UK if the deal with Shell goes ahead.

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Speaker 2: Sure well, let me say, first of all, I left

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Speaker 2: BP eighteen years ago, so it's not just yesterday, and

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Speaker 2: I don't supervise BP. It would be a loss, of course,

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Speaker 2: it would be a great loss BP. Certainly, you know

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Speaker 2: when I was running it, we were the I think

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Speaker 2: fifth or seventh largest entire company in the entire world,

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Speaker 2: and it had great skill at developing responsibly order gas

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Speaker 2: and actually providing huge employment for every body. It was

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Speaker 2: at one time, of course, the provider of one pound

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Speaker 2: out of every six pounds in every single pension fund

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Speaker 2: in the UK. So I hope it's not lost because

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Speaker 2: it's a great part of the British business environment.

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Speaker 1: So your advice to Murray arckingclass John.

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Speaker 2: I have no advice for CEOs. I really think that

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Speaker 2: former CEO should keep out of advising president CEOs. This

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Speaker 2: is not a good idea.

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Speaker 3: Okay, take that point. In that case, let me return

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Speaker 3: to the fundamental issue, which is that the leading universities

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Speaker 3: in the world in the United States, most prominently Harvard,

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Speaker 3: are currently under enormous pressure from the Trump administration to

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Speaker 3: do what the Trump administration sees as being ideal. Harvard

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Speaker 3: is engaged in a significant battle. You've talked about, you know,

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Speaker 3: the idea of being able to exchange ideas freely at Cambridge.

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Speaker 3: Were you to lead that university, I want the US

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Speaker 3: and the current administration has also deeply criticize Britain, that

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Speaker 3: freedom of speech in Britain is under threat. What concrete

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Speaker 3: actions would you take to try to ensure that there

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Speaker 3: is freedom academically, freedom of speech for students, for researchers

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Speaker 3: at Cambridge going forwards. This seems to me a really

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Speaker 3: foundational challenge.

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Speaker 2: Well indeed, it is. But first of all, it's not

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Speaker 2: as if it's a new idea. It is what Cambridge

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Speaker 2: stands for, and it simply needs to be reinforced. I

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Speaker 2: think it's very important to take a strong position that

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Speaker 2: everything must be done to make sure that people can

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Speaker 2: speak freely, and they do not in so doing shut

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Speaker 2: down freedom of speech for the people who disagree with them.

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Speaker 2: So that needs to be pleased quite carefully, and there

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Speaker 2: are rules to do that and they should be forced.

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Speaker 2: There is no doubt actually those rules existed for a

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Speaker 2: long time.

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Speaker 3: So then Cambridge has done a good job so far

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Speaker 3: in your view, and is exemplary right now, and you

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Speaker 3: want to continue that it's not bad.

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Speaker 2: There are, of course, are always things that get in

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Speaker 2: the way, you know, and there are ups and downs.

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Speaker 2: But I don't think that long term values are judged

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Speaker 2: by sometimes things that go wrong that then are corrected.

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Speaker 2: So I think Cambridge needs to reinforce, it needs to

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Speaker 2: teach people that needs to stand out and everything they do,

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Speaker 2: and I may say they need to do research with

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Speaker 2: a freedom of investigation, research and scholarship.

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Speaker 3: And so a message of support for Harvard University and

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Speaker 3: it's battled with the US administration.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's up to Harvard how they do this. I

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Speaker 2: think Harvard had a great obviously very great standing and

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Speaker 2: how they now go forward is very much in their

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Speaker 2: control and the circumstances of the day. But you know,

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Speaker 2: these changes in fashion and they are almost fascional or

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Speaker 2: probably a partial reading of values. They go up and

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Speaker 2: they go down. But in the end, the long term

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Speaker 2: value of the university, and they're trying to make that

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Speaker 2: point legally, is that that's unchanged, that they have freedom

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Speaker 2: of speech. That actually it's done in a way where

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Speaker 2: it allows they're losing.

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Speaker 3: They are losing millions and millions in funding in the US,

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Speaker 3: so financially it's having it's potentially going to have a

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Speaker 3: much bigger and longer term and fundamental impact on Harvard,

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Speaker 3: led by the Harvard President, Alan Garber.

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Speaker 2: That may be true, depending on how it all gets

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Speaker 2: through the courts and what happens over a run of years,

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Speaker 2: that may well be true. That is very much I'm

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Speaker 2: afraid is the nature of what is happening in the

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Speaker 2: United States, and it's the United States's choice to have

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Speaker 2: this administration in place, and it comes with these activities.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it may well spread in the world.

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Speaker 2: I hope it doesn't. We should be vigorous and very

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Speaker 2: strong to prevent it affecting what goes on in Cambridge University.

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Speaker 1: Okay, John Brown, really good to talk to you. We

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for your time. John Brown is

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Speaker 1: of course running to become Chancellor of the University of

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Speaker 1: Cambridge and was previously CEO of BP. John, we thank

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Speaker 1: you for joining us on the program.