1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Happy Friday, Am Holly Frye and I'm Tracy V. 3 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 2: Wilson. 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: We talked about Barbett this week. We did Barbette, who 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: I love. But I feel like if I traveled back 6 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: in time and met Barbette, Barbette would not like me. 7 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 2: Yeah. 8 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: I don't think I'm fastidious enough for Barbette. Sure he 9 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: was all about impeccability, which I don't own that trait. 10 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: I was gonna say it was too much gum chewing, 11 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: possibly too much of anything. Yeah, I think Barbette would 12 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,959 Speaker 1: find modern culture and the way people dress very casually 13 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: utterly horrifying. But sure, sure, It's just my theory. Although 14 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: in that same nineteen sixty nine article that we talked about, 15 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: one of the things that comes up is the person 16 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: that connected Steve Muller to him finally, because Steve Muller 17 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 1: had reached out and gotten no response and ended up 18 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: going through a professor that knew them or could get 19 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: them connected. And this professor was apparently a very casual dresser, 20 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: but Barbette was very complimentary of him and compared him 21 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: to like Royalty, and there was this moment of confusion 22 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: of like, are we all talking about the same thing? Like, 23 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: so he obviously had like a magnanimous spirit and was 24 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 1: willing to you know, be kind and didn't just dismiss people. 25 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: But sure, I think I might be I might be 26 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: too sloppy to lop be For Barbett the Alpharetta Sisters 27 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 1: his first act, there's a little offhand detail that sort 28 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: of it's simultaneously like really yucky but also so indicative of. 29 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 2: The world of vaudeville. 30 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: That was going on at the time, which is that, 31 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: you know, we mentioned that one of the Alpharetta sisters 32 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: had died, and the one that were Maine that was 33 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: to become his partner in this trapeze and aerial act 34 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: was the wife of a comedian named Happy Doc Holland 35 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 1: who was a blackface comedian. Oh and this just kind 36 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: of gets, you know, mentioned very casually, and it's like 37 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: that right, because that was totally de rigurd at the time. 38 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 2: So it's like. 39 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 1: You have to remember how many just weird things were 40 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: going on in vaudeville that people were perfectly willing to accept. Uh, 41 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: And then there was Barbett, who not everybody was willing 42 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 1: to accept but some people loved. Yeah, well we we've 43 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: talked about uh, like female impersonators in vaudeville before you 44 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: have you have selected our Julian Elting episode as an 45 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: upcoming Saturday classic because it pairs so nicely with this one. 46 00:02:55,480 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: But like there was a lot of sort of gender impersonation, 47 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 1: gender performance. Yes, in the world of vaudeville. Yes, obviously 48 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: it did not originate with Vaudeville. 49 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 2: Yeah it was, but you know. 50 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: That's uh, there's a whole there's a whole history there. 51 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 2: Yeah. 52 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: I I find myself so fascinated thinking about how Barbett 53 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: would fit into the world today, and how he might identify, 54 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: and how he might whether he would be an out 55 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: gay man, Like there are other there are other indicators. 56 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: We mentioned that that he clearly had relationships with men. 57 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: There was one thing that I found and I wasn't 58 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: able to really substantiate, although it came from, you know, 59 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: a fairly reliable source, but that he had actually been 60 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: arrested in England for the way it was worded sounded 61 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: pretty benign, like basically being found in an embrace with 62 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: another man, whatever that may mean, but that as a consequence, 63 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: he couldn't perform there anymore because he couldn't get performance permits, 64 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: which you know, I don't know that he cared since 65 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: he was so happy in Paris, But right, those are 66 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 1: the kinds of little things that pop up. But again, 67 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: there's never any indication that there was a special person 68 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 1: in his life, yeah, other than possibly Jean Cocteaux, and 69 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: the way that relationship kind of Peter's out is a 70 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: little unclear to me as well. Some of this is 71 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: made extra fuzzy because one of the sources that a 72 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: lot of people cite is a very well written historical novel. 73 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's tricky. It is seems to be very 74 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: well researched, and it's very well written, but like, there 75 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: are obviously elements that are speculative that I think some 76 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: people have taken as factual gospel truth, and that has 77 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: confused things quite bit. So I spent a lot of 78 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: time just trying to like eliminate anything that seems like 79 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: it may have come from there. Again, not not to 80 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: deride it as a piece of writing, but just it's, Yeah, 81 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 1: that can be really tricky. There's been a couple of 82 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: times when I have sort of reviewed a historical novel 83 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: for the show because it was something that like was 84 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: described as being really grounded in uh like as much 85 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: factual detail as possible. But like, I the same thing, 86 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: like when you're writing a novel, you're making choices about 87 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: about making it a good novel, and so that's not 88 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 1: something that I think can work in most of the 89 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: time as like a source for the show. Also, we 90 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: talked about this a little bit in our Ruth Benedict 91 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: I think behind the scenes lately that like so often 92 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: when we're talking about people living at a time when 93 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: like any kind of same secon behavior was in a 94 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 1: lot of places. 95 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 2: More outlawed than today. 96 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 1: Because obviously there are places that still ill criminalize. Like 97 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: there's so much of what historians are trying to do 98 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: involves like reading between the lines and and kind of 99 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: like eking things out from the margins, and so it 100 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: can be really tricky. And then aside from that, we've 101 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: talked before about like not wanting to assign people an 102 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: identity that like they didn't have the same cultural access to. Yeah, 103 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: it's a tricky It is so like this is yet 104 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: another person that to me, like clearly in the big 105 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: umbrella of LGBTQ IA plus history but like specifics that 106 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: it's okay to have questions about and not know definitively well. 107 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: And he's one that makes it extra unique because so 108 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: much of his work and what made him famous was 109 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: messing with that whole system anyway, where it's like, oh, 110 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: you think I am a beautiful In fact, I'm a 111 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: beautiful man. So it's unclear to me exactly how the 112 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: relationship with Coctau fizzled out, or if he just wanted 113 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: to come back to the US or what. He does 114 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: state pretty clearly in that's nineteen sixty nine interview that 115 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: he was really dismayed about the film and what had happened, 116 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: and how he felt like he had been a little 117 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: manipulated into being part of something he wasn't comfortable with. 118 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: So sure that may or may not have been the 119 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: source of part of the fizzling out. One thing that's 120 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: really really interesting, right We talked about how Coctau had 121 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: gotten man Ray to take these portraits of him, which 122 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: are very beautiful. There is one, at least one that's 123 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: in the collection of the met but it's not on 124 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: dis blay. They have it on their website, but it's 125 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: like they have a note about permissions that like it 126 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: can't even be enlarged from what they show on the website, 127 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: and wow, you can't download it and they can't sell it, 128 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: and that they don't have it viewable at the museum, 129 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: so you kind of only get little little pictures. It 130 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: got used on a book cover at one point. That 131 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: is the other thing. There is a source I would 132 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: love to have, which is a book written by Coctau 133 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: about Barbette. To get it on the secondhand market was 134 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: a couple hundred bucks. 135 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,239 Speaker 2: I say, eight hundred dollars. 136 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: There are times when I'll be like, yep, and I 137 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: kind of wanted it, but it was like it was 138 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: not going to get here in time. And even the 139 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: dust jacket for that book, which features a man Ray photo, 140 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: is like fifty dollars just for the dust jacket. So 141 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: that is an indicator of how cherished this book is. 142 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,119 Speaker 1: So did not get my hands on that one. Unfortunately. 143 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit more because I 144 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: mentioned I would about what a jerk Jay brooks Atkinson 145 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: was in Oh yeah, yeah, because I literally at first, 146 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: as I'm reading it, I'm like, he points out that, 147 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: you know, somebody's reaction was that it. 148 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 2: Was gone awful. But then he is kind. 149 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: Of mocking that woman, and I was like, is he 150 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: actually trying to say, like, no, this is art and 151 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: she's too ignorant to get it. But then as he 152 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: goes on and he's like, oh, what are the Europeans 153 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: going to do if Barbette breaks his neck? And I'm like, ah, 154 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: like anything about this. 155 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 2: This whole thing is gross. 156 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 1: And he became very influential in his career, So yeah, 157 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 1: I hope he learned kindness. It's always a weird one. Yeah, oh, Barbette. 158 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: You can see some video it's quite grainy of him 159 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: doing the his early some of his early acts with 160 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: the circus. Again, that whole or for whirling sensations using 161 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: your teeth to support that is one of the most 162 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: terrifying acts of any like circus or aerialist for me. Ever, 163 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: Like I have one of those things where I just like, 164 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:23,559 Speaker 1: broken teeth weird me out, and. 165 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: The thought of it is not. 166 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 1: No. Yeah, Austin really embraces Barbette. 167 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 2: Whether Barbett would agree with that as a matter. 168 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: Of yeah, And that goes back to like my earlier 169 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: question in the episode of like I have no idea 170 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: what the like the perception of Austin was when Barbette 171 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: was alive. Uh, but I like, I feel like the 172 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 1: Austin vibe now, yeah, probably not quite the same. 173 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 174 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:03,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, there is certainly speculation about why he chose to 175 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: end his life when he did. We don't know, it's all. 176 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: It is all speculative, right, like, Yeah, his family very purposely. 177 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 2: Kept that. 178 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: Quiet, like they didn't want to speak on it, so 179 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: we don't have any details, which is probably right, and 180 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: it's certainly in line with their wishes, right well. And 181 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 1: I think also mental health is complicated, yes, And I 182 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: think a lot of times when there's this like a 183 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: search to find a reason for something, like even if 184 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: there is in quotation marks a reason like that might 185 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: be really oversimplified. Yeah, And I understand the impulse because 186 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 1: people want to make sense of behaviors that don't make 187 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: sense to them, right, and be like, oh, but there 188 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: is a cause and effect I can point to and 189 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: that makes it more understandable and something that I could 190 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: avoid in my life, Like it's it's finding ways to 191 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,079 Speaker 1: say that that scary thing is not ever going to 192 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: touch you. Yeah, So I fully understand it. But in 193 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: his case, there's not really any information about it. We 194 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: know his health was not great in the last few 195 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: years of his life, but that's all we know. Yeah, 196 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: so yeah, but I really, really I want more Barbette. 197 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: I know there was a play staged about Barbette in 198 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: the Austin area, I think in two thousand and two. 199 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 2: And I haven't. 200 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: There were write ups about it then, and it was 201 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: very well reviewed at the time, at least locally, and 202 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: I haven't. I didn't find anything else about it though 203 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: beyond that, So hopefully that's this is a person I 204 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: would be happy to have a movie made by a 205 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: relief skilled, skilled writer and director. I just looked up 206 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: this this photo that's at the met on my phone 207 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: while you were talking, and that is beautiful. Yeah, I mean, man, 208 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: Ray is already like and all of these photos are 209 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,959 Speaker 1: like that, where he's often in full hair and makeup, 210 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: but then you know he's only partially in. 211 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 2: Like the undergarments of a woman. 212 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: You can clearly see that, like his chest and his shoulders, 213 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: which are he was very petite, but he obviously is 214 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: very strong, like he had to have been for his work, 215 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: this aerial work, and you know where that part is 216 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: not yet part of the illusion of womanhood and that 217 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: it makes just all of these really compelling images. There 218 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: are some portraits of him in full drag that are 219 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: so spectacularly gorgeous and glamorous that like they're swoon worthy 220 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: as art. 221 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:25,439 Speaker 2: They're just so beautiful. 222 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: So if you want to go noodle around on the 223 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: internet for pretty pictures, that is a perfectly delightful way 224 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: to spend an hour in my opinion. Yeah, this week 225 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 1: we talked about square dancing. Yeah, so we both learned 226 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: some square dancing in school, and I will tell you 227 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 1: I was into it, and here's why. At my school, 228 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: square dancing was one of the things we learned, like 229 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: as we moved away from sort of the kindergarten level 230 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: pe where we did stuff like playing with a parachute 231 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: or like rolling around on scooters that I'm surprised we 232 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: didn't all cause ourselves serious injury with and we moved 233 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: into a lot more team sports. And I was bad 234 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: at all team sports. I couldn't throw a ball, I 235 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: couldn't hit a ball, I couldn't catch a ball. Occasionally 236 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: I would have some weird run of luck where I 237 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: would actually like get the basketball into the basket and 238 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: I would be like, maybe I can do it now. 239 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 2: Nope, nope. 240 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: It was a weird fluke. But what I could do 241 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: was follow instructions, So square dancing was like my preferred 242 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: gym activity. You don't look like you have that same experience, Well, 243 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: I have to confess, you know, I mean I think 244 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: I have many times. What a shrew of a child 245 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: I would because okay, I did not encounter square dancing 246 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: in school until I moved in the fourth grade from 247 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: the Seattle area to the Florida Panhandle, all right, And 248 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: by the time we got to square dancing in Pe, 249 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: I had begun to take ballet lessons and fancied myself 250 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: a prima ballerina. Okay, and I was the biggest snoot 251 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: petuits where I was like, I would enjoy square dancing 252 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: if anyone else in this class could do it, Like 253 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: I was that horrible kid that was saying you suck, 254 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: you suck. None of these people are worthy to be 255 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: my partner. Like I literally pitched to the teacher, can 256 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: I just do it by myself? Because I didn't want 257 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: to deal with other kids. 258 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 2: I honestly love this story. What a shrew. 259 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: My judgmentalness was slightly different we did the thing, or 260 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: we were gonna do. Actually, I think what we were 261 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: gonna do was the Virginia reel, which is technically not 262 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: a square dance because it's done in two rows, not 263 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: in a square. And so there's that whole thing of 264 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: like should this be under the umbrella of square dancing 265 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: or not. And my partner was a kid. I am 266 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: sure as an adult that his home life had other 267 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: stuff going on that I did not know about it. 268 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: Of course, all I knew about him, though, was that 269 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: he was absent a lot and that he thought this 270 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: was stupid. And so I was like, I know what's 271 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: going to happen, which is that he is not going 272 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: to show up for the PTA meeting where we're supposed 273 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: to do this square dance, and I'm not going to 274 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: get to do it, and I'm going to be upset 275 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: about it. 276 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 2: And you know who was right, It. 277 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: Was me, And I was very kind of bitter about that. 278 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: I just this past weekend went on a road trip 279 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: with my spouse, and as sometimes happened, I kind of 280 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: just downloaded everything about square dancing to him as we 281 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: were making our way toward the highway to go on 282 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: this trip, and I was surprised to learn that his 283 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: gym class did not include any square dancing. Like he 284 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:07,479 Speaker 1: is a year younger than me, which you know, we 285 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 1: were sort of toward the tail end of the square 286 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: dancing gym class popularity wave. But he's still like close 287 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 1: enough to me an age that I would have expected it. 288 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: And he's also from a really kind of remote rural area, 289 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: and so the fact that there was no square dancing 290 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: kind of I was like, really, And as we were 291 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: talking about it, he pointed out that his school's nearest 292 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: neighbor and their rival in all things athletics, was actually 293 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 1: a reservation school. I was like, I wonder if and 294 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: this is totally speculative, but he was like, I wonder 295 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: if those same things about like square dancing kind of 296 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 1: being like a tool of oppression kind of influenced that 297 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: school and then also by extension, like their neighbors. And 298 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: I was like, totally speculative, but also to me, totally possible. 299 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 2: Right grounded in in some solid logic. Yeah. 300 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: I also have a quote from s Foster Damon that 301 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: I didn't put in the episode that I wanted to 302 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: read because like, there were just there were just so 303 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: many revivals of square dancing, and they just all kept 304 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: making the point, this is so old. This is like 305 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: a return to our quote Anglo Saxon heritage. That's we 306 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: don't often use the word Anglo Saxon on the show 307 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 1: anymore because it has become this like like synonym for 308 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 1: like white history. And this's like when we're actually talking 309 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: about English history that formerly would have been described as 310 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: Anglo Saxon, like at this point we are more likely 311 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: to say early English, but we use it in this 312 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: episode because that's specifically what people were referring to, was 313 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: this like sort of amagic idea of a white pastime 314 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: and reviving it over and over. So s Foster Damon wrote, quote, 315 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: Then the Second World War swept away our last romantic 316 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: notions that Europeans were better than Americans. The nation worked 317 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: together as never before, and again, as in sixteen fifty one, 318 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: the spirit of democracy rose from the folk into the ballrooms. 319 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: Countryside and city were one again. People have put a 320 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: lot of emotional weight on squar dance. They have. We 321 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: have not gotten to the thing I really really really 322 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 1: want to talk about. Okay, let's talk about it. It's 323 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: hillbilly hare, Okay, because while Western square dancing was something 324 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: I first did in school, my first exposure to it 325 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: was that nineteen fifty Bugs Bunny cartoon Sure yeah, yeah, yeah, 326 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: in which Bugs, after a series of entanglements and whatnot, 327 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: ends up calling a square dance with these two brothers, 328 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: the Martins, and through his calling makes them do more 329 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 1: and more violent and progressively silly things, which I love it. 330 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 2: I you know, it's a skewering. 331 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: Again, this was made in nineteen fifty, so like it 332 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: is definitely a skewering of this whole idea. Yeah, square 333 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: dancing is like this noble Americana as it was kind 334 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: of being pushed in the public sphere. It also is, 335 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: you know, pretty unkind to people who live in the country. 336 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: Sure yeah, lot areas, And it also just kind of 337 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: skewers this idea of long term family feuds. But yeah, 338 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 1: one of my happiest moments ever as a podcaster was 339 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: when I was doing the podcast Drawn, which is about animation, 340 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: and I was interviewing Jackson Public, who is one of 341 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 1: the creators of The Venture Brothers, and he and I 342 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: both love Bugs Bunny, and spontaneously we were doing the 343 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: call from Hillbilly hare together or world twist and whirl 344 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:03,640 Speaker 1: jumper around like flying squirrel like. 345 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 2: It's the best. 346 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the absolute best. And so that's what I 347 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: often think of when I think of square dancing, which 348 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 1: I imagine people who were trying to really push it 349 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: as a part of important American folk culture probably didn't appreciate, right, Yeah, Yeah, 350 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: that cartoon has been censored in a variety of ways 351 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 1: over the years, sometimes due to gun violence, sometimes due 352 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: to just violent behavior. But I imagined there are lots 353 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 1: of people who have would rather it not exist. But yeah, 354 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: since I Bugs Bunny was my first crush, I will 355 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: always love it. I don't remember I kept putting it 356 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: in and taking it out and then like adding more 357 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: description than taking it out about sort of the attire 358 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: that is common in modern Western square dancing, which is 359 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: like a lot of gingham dresses with petticoats and like 360 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 1: Western inspired coat part of me into yeah, and so 361 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: like that is like like it's pretty much described as 362 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: like square dancing attire that is like really common specifically 363 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: in modern Western square dancing, and then and the more 364 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: traditional square dancing it's kind of more all over the place, 365 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:23,239 Speaker 1: like yeah, in terms of what people wear. It's not 366 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: our first social dance episode. 367 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 2: We also did. 368 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 1: We also did one on swing dancing, which is also 369 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: a social dance and also has you know, some differently 370 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: nuanced but twists and turns in its history. 371 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, I as I was. 372 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: I was trying to get a handle on like what 373 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 1: exactly modern Western square dancing involved, and I found this 374 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: one page that was sort of like coming to a 375 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: square dance, and it, to me, as an outsider, felt 376 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: a lot more gatekeeping than swing dances I've been to, 377 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: because usually when I've gone to a swing dance, there 378 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 1: is a beginner swing dance at the beginning of the dance, 379 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: and then anybody of any ability level is welcome to dance. 380 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 1: And if somebody dances with you can just say I'm 381 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: a beginner, And if that person is a total expert, 382 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 1: they are not gonna like walk away from you on 383 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: the floor. They are gonna dance with you, and you 384 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: know you'll make mistakes and everyone will laugh in like 385 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: the spirit of camaraderie with one another, not in like 386 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: you don't know what you're doing. And this was really 387 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 1: more like if you're a beginner, like don't show up, 388 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: not don't show up, but like, don't try to dance 389 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: with more experienced people. You really have to have learned 390 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: all these calls before you dance. And I was just like, 391 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: I get the point that instead of just having one partner, 392 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: there are four couples at this dance. Yeah, and if 393 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: one couple is struggling, that might affect things for the others. 394 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 2: But like, it just felt a lot more, a lot more. 395 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: Gatekeepy than like what I sort of expected from something 396 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: that is inherently a social dance. I don't think I've 397 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: ever done a square dance thing as an adult to know, 398 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 1: m hm. I mean the closest we ever got was 399 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:14,959 Speaker 1: when Bright and I took a ballroom dance class at 400 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: one point that my employer was offering, and that did 401 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: not go well because no one had explained to my 402 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: husband that we would have to switch partners, and he 403 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: was not very enthused. 404 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 2: About that plan. 405 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, He's like, but I want to dance with you, 406 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 1: which is very sweet. Yeah, it is very sweet. And 407 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: I was like, uh, oh, we have to be that 408 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,679 Speaker 1: couple that's like, we're not dancing with anyone else, and 409 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: my life repeated. But that time I didn't mean to 410 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: be the person that was like, oh no, I'm not 411 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 1: dancing with any of you. 412 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 2: Oh I love it. 413 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: I love it. 414 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 2: Uh. 415 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 1: If you are super into modern Western square dancing and 416 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: like the things that I found that sound gatekeepy or 417 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: like outliers, feel free to like write it and you know, 418 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 1: let us know what your experience is. It just seemed 419 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:03,639 Speaker 1: like a very more like you really need you have 420 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: to know all these calls before you can enjoy a 421 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: square And I was like, okay, okay, how do you 422 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: learn them with that experience? So anyway, anyway, I man 423 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: again super into it. In elementary school, I was so 424 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: good at following instructions. I love unless I thought your 425 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: instructions were nonsense, at which point I was not doing them. 426 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 1: If you want to send us a note where at 427 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: History podcast atiheartradio dot com. We'll be back with a 428 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: Saturday classic tomorrow in a brand new episode on Monday. 429 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: I hope everyone has a good weekend. If you like 430 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: the social dance and you're getting to go social dancing 431 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: this weekend, I hope you have the best time. If 432 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: you would rather not do that, I hope no one 433 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 1: makes you. We'll be back Monday with a new show. 434 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 1: Stuff you missed An History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. 435 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,360 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 436 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.