1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm 3 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. Today's Crash Course. Women versus Wall Street. Wall 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: Street can be a minefield. For any competitive or ambitious 5 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 1: person seeking a rewarding career, a name for themselves, and 6 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: handsome paydays, They quickly find themselves surrounded by other competitive 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: and ambitious people looking for exactly the same things. For women, 8 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: the challenges can run even deeper, and for them, the 9 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: world of Wall Street is particularly fraught. To be sure, 10 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: progress has been made. More women are working than ever before. 11 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: About sixty four percent of women aged twenty five to 12 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: fifty four were employed or seeking jobs in the US 13 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty. By early twenty twenty three, that figure 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,279 Speaker 1: had jumped to more than seventy seven percent. Across the 15 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: entire universe. Of SMP five hundred companies, women hold about 16 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: thirty three percent of the board seats, an improvement, of course, 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: but still not on a par with men. Women's pay 18 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: is about eighty three percent of what men make across 19 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 1: the entire US labor market. What's it like to fight 20 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: through those challenges, especially when your own dreams collide with hurdles. 21 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: That is, when they collide with men joining crash course 22 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: to discuss all of this is Elizabeth Russiello. Elizabeth is 23 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: a CEO of Oza Finance, a fintech and four X 24 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: company based in Nairobi and London, and her path has 25 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: taken her through Wall Street, crypto, fintech, and Africa. Her 26 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: story is compelling not only because she has encountered many 27 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: of Wall Street's roadblocks, but also got around them by 28 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: finding her own way in the world as an entrepreneur. Elizabeth, welcome, 29 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,559 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. We have so much to talk 30 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: about it and I think just to set stuff up 31 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,919 Speaker 1: for our listeners, tell me a little bit about your background, 32 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: where you were born, your education, and then how you 33 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: decided to choose a career in finance. 34 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 2: Well, it's so nice to speak to someone with a 35 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 2: New York accent, because I spent the last twenty some 36 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 2: odd years away from New York. 37 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: I'm from Chicago. 38 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 2: That doesn't matter. He still. 39 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 3: Adapted a bit of a New York eccent. Although when 40 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 3: you said Chicago, I immediately heard it. But I grew 41 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 3: up in Queen's New York. I'm an Italian American, Italian 42 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,239 Speaker 3: Irish mix, which is a New York special, and every 43 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 3: kid in my elementary school spoke a different language. My 44 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 3: neighborhood was full of diaspora that changed every five to 45 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 3: six years. So it's funny now you know, forty years 46 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 3: later that I worked with so many Diascora communities because 47 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 3: at the time, every diaspora wave that comes to Queens 48 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 3: and then makes enough money and moves out, and we 49 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 3: kept staying there our whole childhood. So I mean, I 50 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 3: grew up pretty tough and resilient, and I saw extremes 51 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 3: from the start. You know, I was with the smartest 52 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 3: kids at Hunter High School, which is a magnet school 53 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 3: in New York. Lin Menmuel Miranda was in my grade, 54 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 3: and all these beautiful, smart, amazing kids from all over 55 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 3: the city. And you start to think it's normal, so 56 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 3: very tough to grow up in a city, be with 57 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 3: the most ambitious, best and brightest and kind of realize 58 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 3: you're socioeconomically, you're at the lower end, education wise, you're 59 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 3: at the top end. You know, all over the place 60 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:19,679 Speaker 3: in and only a way that I've seen a real 61 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 3: American story, and I left home pretty quick. I spoke 62 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 3: a lot of languages. So I went abroad to Berlin, Germany, 63 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 3: and I worked at the Bundestag there as a translator. 64 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: Right out of you're underserving yourself. You spoke a lot 65 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: of languages, being able to speak a lot of languages 66 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: as a talent. How many languages did you have then? 67 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 2: Three? Now I've picked up another one in addition. 68 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: To English, Italian, German, English and Swahili are those French? 69 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 3: And I think what was interesting is that you know, 70 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 3: when you're a nomad and you're an observer, you don't 71 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 3: ever really fit in, and you get used to not 72 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 3: expecting to fit in. And I think that definitely helped 73 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 3: me later on in life as a female in finance 74 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 3: and as a female entrepreneur in the venture space in crypto, 75 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 3: I never really expected to fit in, and I think 76 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 3: I felt like that really protected me, because you know, 77 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 3: I expect the worst, I trust no one, and I'm 78 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 3: grateful for what I get. 79 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: Nomad is also a great word. It's a mindset as 80 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: much as it's a locationist. How does a nomad end 81 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: up in the world of finance? How did you decide 82 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: that that was the place for you? 83 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 3: So I went abroad to Germany and I was working 84 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 3: in economic research. I was really interested in politics as 85 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 3: an undergrad. I was working at the SPD party at 86 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 3: the time. So Schroeder's party with the Social Democrats in 87 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 3: Germany were trying to bring along a sort of like 88 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 3: socialist capitalism to Europe just as the euro was forming 89 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 3: and that you was coming together. 90 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 2: So it was a very interesting time. 91 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 3: But when I went back to graduate school at Columbia, 92 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 3: at the School of International Affairs, I realized, how is 93 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 3: everybody going to pay for their education? All these glamorous, 94 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 3: beautiful people are going to work in the un lit 95 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 3: one hundred thousand dollars loans on their bad So I 96 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 3: went into finance really to finance my own education. And 97 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 3: I kept going at the job fair sneaking into the 98 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 3: job fairs at the business school because I heard those 99 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 3: summer internships got paid more money. And I had a 100 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 3: huge student. 101 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 2: Loan on my back. 102 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 3: So it was really, you know, a lack of privilege 103 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 3: to who was going to pay for my graduate school 104 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 3: that got me in there. 105 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: And are we talking like the late nineties at that point, 106 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 1: the mid to late nineties or two thousand and three, 107 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: two thousand and three so early, notts, and so you 108 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: get your degree and then you go to Wall Street. 109 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 3: So I did a summer credit sweet, but between my 110 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 3: two graduate school years I snuck in since I was 111 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 3: only twenty two when I went to grad school a 112 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 3: bit of a nerd. I was too young to go 113 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 3: into the associate program but kind of too old to 114 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 3: go into the analyst programs. I went in as a 115 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 3: senior analyst with a grad degree and had traveled abroad, 116 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 3: and everybody else in my class was somebody's child, so 117 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 3: already I realized I had to work a lot harder. 118 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 3: And I think there were two kids who were not 119 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 3: white and one kid who was not wealthy, and that 120 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 3: was me. And I'm still good friends with the Evopian 121 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 3: America who was in my class, and we had it rough, 122 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 3: and we realized that from the start, and we talked 123 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 3: about it a lot. So I think, you know, when 124 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 3: you're coming in and you're not accepted, at least to 125 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:10,720 Speaker 3: have like an island of safety. 126 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: You and your friend were both outsiders for different reasons. 127 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: Your friend because of race and you because of income 128 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: class or was it because you were a woman. Was 129 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,119 Speaker 1: it a combination of all of those things. 130 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:22,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent. 131 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 3: I mean when I finally got in, I think one 132 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 3: of the head of sales trading called me into the office. 133 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 3: He said, you know, you've been offered a full time position. 134 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 3: It's like the Super Bowl. Your parents would be so. 135 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 2: Proud, you know. 136 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 3: Almost made me cry in the glass office, like as 137 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 3: if I was subservient. And then I remember thinking, maybe 138 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 3: it's some six graduate degree between them, to a degree 139 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 3: you like, I don't even know if you've passed any 140 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 3: class in your whole life, you know. But the privilege 141 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 3: was really a shock to me because yes, I had 142 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 3: traverse from Queen's to Hunter, but everybody there was a nerd, 143 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 3: so we were joined at that here. It was really 144 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 3: like I didn't realize you could be successful at life 145 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 3: just on pure privilege alone. I knew privileged, smart kids before, 146 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 3: but I didn't know just pure privileged people. So that 147 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 3: was like, you know, a very big shock to me. 148 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 3: And there was a lot of talk about it. Plus, 149 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 3: of course, you know, I was young, I was cute, 150 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 3: I was in shape, so you're constantly being harassed. It's 151 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 3: very confusing for females and finance. 152 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 2: And voted because of the hair collar. 153 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 3: Look because I smelled at someone because I didn't smell 154 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 3: it someone. But I became acutely aware in a way 155 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 3: that I hadn't been before about my level of privilege. 156 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: But you hung in there, well. 157 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 2: I had student loans to pay, so yeah. 158 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: You had student loans to bay, so the money was 159 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: good and it was paying off your loans. And I 160 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: presume you were learning things too that, even if they 161 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: were hard fought lessons, they were things that sort of 162 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: stood you well in some of your later career choices. 163 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:50,119 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, hundred percent. 164 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 3: And I had There was one MD who reached out, 165 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 3: philvis On, who himself was a bit of an outsider, 166 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 3: who then went on to lead that whole private bank. 167 00:07:58,440 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 2: At Credit Sueeze. 168 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 3: He was also for Queens and Catholic, and he kind 169 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 3: of was like, you speak German, I'm going to send 170 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 3: you to Switzerland and again differentiate myself and get out 171 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 3: of there. 172 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 2: And that's what I did. 173 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 3: I did a fellowship in between and that I went 174 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 3: for the Robert Bosch program, which is this incredible fellowship 175 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 3: that set me to Germany for a year. I delayed 176 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 3: going into Wall Street, and then I went into the 177 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 3: Zurich office and I spent two years as my analysts 178 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 3: between London and Zurich covering German speaking Europe. If I 179 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 3: knew that I wasn't privileged in other ways, I just 180 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 3: tried to use my wits, I guess, to get through it. 181 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: And then you moved on to Goldman Sachs for a spell, right. 182 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, before that, I went to Goldman for an 183 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 3: analyst summer, also in Frankfurt, and that was sixty six 184 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 3: men and me, and so many weird things happened being 185 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 3: a female there, being a foreigner there, and it gets 186 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 3: really mixed up. Is it because I'm a female? Is 187 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 3: because of an American? Is it because I'm young? Is 188 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 3: it because I have read Hager? 189 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 2: You know? Is it because I speak these languages? 190 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 3: And it really just makes you doubt who you are 191 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 3: in a way that it wouldn't have you you were 192 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 3: a man. All these extra valuables constantly come into play, 193 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 3: and I think I called Pilvisan and I said, I 194 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 3: can't stand it. I want to come back to Credit Swiee. 195 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 3: And he said, all right, let's do it. You have 196 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 3: to come into prime brokerage. I said, no problem. And 197 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 3: I said, can I stay in Europe? And that's when 198 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 3: I started the position full time and Zurich, so again 199 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 3: I found an ally and a. 200 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: Man by the way who was an ally. I'm not 201 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 1: excusing all the men out there who make it hard, 202 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 1: but for the ones who stand up in the workplace, 203 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 1: it's valuable, especially for people who feel like outsiders. You're 204 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: in trade five basically at Credit Suisse, right, and you 205 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: decide then ultimately to leave Credit Suisse and you joined 206 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: Planet Finance as a consultant. Correct. 207 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 3: Yes, it's super interesting because I was working with alternative 208 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 3: investment managers at the time. Back then, alternative was not 209 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 3: that alternative. Investing in head hedge fund was like a 210 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 3: big step for a lot of family offices and private 211 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 3: wealth managers. And I was visiting all over Switzerland and Europe, 212 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 3: and I'm like, what are they afraid. 213 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 2: To invest in? What is their risk profile? What do 214 00:09:57,960 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 2: they need to see? 215 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 3: And then on the other side, you see all the 216 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 3: hedgeman managers come in, you know, with the same strategies, 217 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 3: thinking that they're the only one unique in town. 218 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 2: We want. You see ten of the exact. 219 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 3: Same people the whole week on their own road shows, 220 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 3: and you start to realize what is differentiation? 221 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 2: In the financial sector. 222 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 3: Is it real, is it reputation? What do you decide 223 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 3: to invest in? Are you investing on fundamentals? Are you 224 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 3: investing on trust? It was a very interesting couple of 225 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 3: years learning about that and observing it right because I'm 226 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 3: not the one making the investment decision. I don't look 227 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,319 Speaker 3: or out like any of these people, and you're kind 228 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 3: of linking. 229 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 2: Them all together. And I was just in the corner 230 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 2: kind of witnessing it. 231 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 3: And when I finally put off my student loan, my 232 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 3: last payment, I told Phil I was leaving, and he said, 233 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 3: you just won your first test against Wall Street. You 234 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 3: said no, And you have the power to decide what 235 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 3: your career looks like. And I had done that a 236 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 3: few times before, when I said, let's wait for a 237 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 3: year while I do the fellowship. No I want to 238 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 3: go to Goldman, No I want to come back, you know, 239 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 3: really deciding what your fate is. And usually when you're 240 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 3: not in a position of privilege, complete privilege, you feel 241 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 3: the need to just say yes. And so I would 242 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 3: say that I must have been somewhere higher on the 243 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 3: privilege latter, even if I came from Queen's or my 244 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 3: parents were quite educated. So I did believe in myself 245 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 3: enough to say no. And I think that's a really 246 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 3: important point. And a lot of people at the time 247 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 3: thought that they it was only one path in life. 248 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 3: And you know, later on in the crypto community or 249 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 3: a lot of the people that I met doing entrepreneurship 250 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 3: down in Africa, they said no to everything and they were, 251 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 3: you know, really stepping outside the box. 252 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: That's stepping outside the box and saying yes to your 253 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: own experiences. 254 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 3: So there people who come from outside want to be 255 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 3: that Connecticut kid. They want to have the same suit 256 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 3: and tie. They want to look like the hedge fund 257 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 3: manager that just walked out of the office. They want 258 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 3: to come in and say the exact same thing. 259 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 2: That's the target. That's the goal for a lot of people. 260 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 3: And you're thinking, I just the thirty hedge fund managers 261 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 3: that are identical, and there's always more that want to 262 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 3: ends are in and you think, you know, how do 263 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 3: you decide. 264 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 2: To do that? Are you afraid of taking your risk 265 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 2: outside the box? 266 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 3: I think, you know, we met a couple of traders 267 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 3: or a couple of managers who really went outside and 268 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 3: we saw those kind of outsize returns. 269 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 2: So for me, it was really risk reward. 270 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 3: And when I met Mohammed Unis's team and they had 271 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 3: just won the Nobel Peace Prize of microfinance, he was like, 272 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 3: you can do finance in markets where you might not 273 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 3: have beforrem might not look the same, but it can 274 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 3: look different. 275 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 2: You can adapt it. 276 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 3: And so that was like the first step outside. 277 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: So let me just stop for a minute and tell 278 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: listeners who Mohammed Unis is. He founded a Bangladesh based bank, 279 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: Gramin Bank, that invented essentially microfinance, which was a way 280 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: to use very small business loans to small companies into 281 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: small companies literally sometimes just single entrepreneurs in developing countries 282 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: as a path toward economic development, with the idea that 283 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: if you seed a bunch of small businesses, it creates 284 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: larger economic momentum and can liberate people from destitution in 285 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: developing countries. I think Gramin then became Planet Finance at 286 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: part of a larger coalition, and then you essentially intersected 287 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: with them as a consultant. Right, And how did you 288 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: meet Unis? 289 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 2: Well? 290 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 3: I met amout a conference, but he founded many companies. 291 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 3: He did a joint venture with Dano and yogurt to 292 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 3: do a low cost, high nutritious meal. He did one 293 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 3: with Adidas to do a shoe that was under a dollar. 294 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 3: He's basically traveling the world talking about how we do 295 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 3: social enterprise, which is what he came up with after microfinance, 296 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 3: and one of the things he did was with his 297 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 3: French politician Jack at Delhi, he created Planet Finance, which 298 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 3: was a group of companies working in forwarding. 299 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 2: Microfinance around the world. 300 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 3: And I was part of the raiding agency and they 301 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 3: sent me down to Nairobi to lead the Sub Saharan 302 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 3: African Office. So I was doing ratings on microfinance. And 303 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 3: one of the most important concepts, which is very similar 304 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 3: to the crypto community, is if somebody's excluded from the 305 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 3: financial system, and not just because they're impoverished, maybe because 306 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 3: they live in Venezuela, or maybe because they are a 307 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 3: Nigerian diaspora in New Jersey and they're very smart and 308 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 3: they're very wealthy, but their parents don't have a thirty 309 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,199 Speaker 3: year mortgage. You know, there's a lot of some the 310 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 3: people who are excluded from the traditional financial system. 311 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: You don't want to just wave your hands. 312 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 3: But if you look at their circle of trust their community. 313 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 3: You say, well, this is where this guy went to school, 314 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 3: this is where this guy did an internship, this is 315 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 3: where this guy did a summer program. 316 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 2: All of a sudden, you see his credit worthiness. 317 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 3: And we're missing out on financial products and financial growth 318 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 3: and economic growth from communities whose. 319 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 2: Circle of trust we don't understand. 320 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 3: And you know, as a foreigner, when I was in Nairobi, 321 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 3: I couldn't open up a local account, I couldn't get 322 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 3: a loan, but clearly I was credit worthy. So how 323 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 3: do you develop that? And then with the crypto community 324 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 3: as well, people felt excluded, and then inside the crypto 325 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 3: community the developed products that showed trust. So I think 326 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 3: it was very interesting for me. And I worked for 327 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 3: seven years in this sector. I would rate the banks 328 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 3: and then I would work with the regulators on the 329 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 3: policies on how to regulate it. 330 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: And I think this is around two thousand and nine. 331 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: And you think you're going to be in Nairobi for 332 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: a year and then end up somewhere in the Asia 333 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: Pacific region. But lo and behold, you stay in Nairobi, 334 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: I permanently and get down another path. Yet again, tell 335 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: me a little bit about that. 336 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 3: Well, it was just such an exciting time to be 337 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 3: in Kenya. M Passa had just been launched two years prior. 338 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 3: That was the first globally implemented mobile money program, and 339 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 3: because of the government support and the monopoly the telco 340 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 3: had on the market, it became universally accepted to the 341 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 3: point where they think informally it's like ninety seven percent 342 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 3: of economy uses it. At one point all of the 343 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 3: major banks were transacting on it, and financial inclusion went 344 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 3: from below thirty percent to above seventy five percent in 345 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 3: just a few years. 346 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 2: Cost of this program. 347 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: It empowered people to use their mobile phone for payments 348 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: and loans and money transfers and every activity that once 349 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: was in the confines of a brick and mortar branch. 350 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 3: Or not or a cash yeah or cash. 351 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: That it now could be contained in a mobile phone. 352 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: And you see this going on, and you think to yourself. 353 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: What I see this going on? 354 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 3: And I see all these cool young entrepreneur was being like, 355 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 3: oh well, let me do mpessa for business, let me 356 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 3: do EMPSA for health. Let me add on to this 357 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 3: incredible product that revolutionize the way we think about using 358 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 3: money and the way we think about an entire ecosystem 359 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 3: using the same interchangeable technology. I mean, back home, my 360 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 3: dad would use a paper check, my mom would use 361 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 3: a debit card. 362 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 2: I would have a credit card. You know, you've never 363 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 2: before seen. 364 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 3: An entire family and an entire country all use the 365 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 3: same method. There were so many cool products you built 366 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 3: on top of that, and I joined actually a lot 367 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 3: of entrepreneurs that were building on top of that, and 368 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 3: I started a company called bit Pessa. 369 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: Elizabeth, before you talk to me about a competitor to 370 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: Empessa or maybe the complementary service to Impassi that you invented, 371 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: I want to take a short break to hear from 372 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: our sponsors and we'll come right back. We're back with 373 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Rossiello, the CEO of Aza Finance, a fintech and 374 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: four X company in Nairobi and London. Elizabeth, you were 375 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: talking to me about this revelatory moment for you when 376 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: you had moved to Nairobi to both carve out your 377 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: own path and escape some of the male dominated confines 378 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: of Western finance. And you're inspired by and pass a 379 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: mobile payments device and that encourages you to start up 380 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 1: your own company. In twenty thirteen, is that where we 381 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: are at that point. 382 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 2: There's one little pit between them. 383 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 3: I was working at microfinance and then I got pregnant, 384 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 3: and I found it really hard to keep getting employed 385 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 3: while pregnant. 386 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: This is another issue for women in the workplace, parenting 387 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: and pregnancies right in a way, and it just affects 388 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: women in a much more significant way, obviously physically, but 389 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: professionally then it affects men. And that's another thing. Another 390 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: hurdle women in the workplace have to overcome is figuring 391 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 1: out how to balance motherhood with their own professional aspirations. 392 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 3: Well, forget even that before you get there, how to 393 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 3: balance other people's perceptions of it. So I had a 394 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 3: group of friends who were mainly male, who were all 395 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 3: starting companies and traveling around just like I was. I 396 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 3: traveled every month to a new country. I would meet 397 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 3: with the Mozambiquan regulator one week and the Nigerian regulator 398 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 3: the next week. And then all of a sudden, I 399 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,360 Speaker 3: get pregnant and everybody's eyes changed. Nobody saw me the same. 400 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 3: I was no longer Elizabeth, the expert on microfinance. I 401 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,719 Speaker 3: was the pregnant girl. And when I would go up 402 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 3: for jobs people wanted to meet for lunch, they wont 403 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 3: all my contact lists, they wanted my insights, they wanted 404 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 3: my due diligence. 405 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 2: But then nobody was. 406 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 3: Offering me contracts anymore, and I was very confused at first, 407 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 3: and even behind my back, some of my male friends 408 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 3: would say, oh, by the way, she's pregnant. I actually 409 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 3: ended a few friendships over It was very surprising to me. 410 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 3: You know, you think you level that when you go 411 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 3: into an alternative space where everybody's quite open, working in 412 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 3: social empowerment, working for development, and then they had the 413 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 3: same sexist ways as the kids from Connecticut at the 414 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 3: best of thing. I was really like, wow, and development finance, 415 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 3: you're working for a female empowerment fun and you're secretly 416 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,400 Speaker 3: whispering to someone not to hire me because I'm pregnant. 417 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 3: It was very blatant and it was very surprising, and 418 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 3: I was shocked by it. So it was really really rough, 419 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 3: and I found that really only my female friends hired me. 420 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 3: After my first child was born and I worked for 421 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 3: a lot of female friends who were working in this space, 422 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 3: and when I had my second child, the same thing 423 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 3: happen and I went up for the same job that 424 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 3: my ex husband was going for at the World Bank, 425 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 3: and they kept asking me, you know, do you have kids. 426 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 3: I was like, not only do I have kids, I 427 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 3: had the exact same. 428 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 2: Kids as he does, totally the same. 429 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 3: And of course he got the job and I did it, 430 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 3: and I was two years older and had two more 431 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 3: years experience. 432 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 2: I'd worked investment banking and you had it. 433 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 3: So it was just it was crazy to me how 434 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 3: blatant it was. 435 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 2: But in the society there, I think. 436 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 3: It was just accepted and women talked about it like, yeah, 437 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 3: of course, well what do you expect? 438 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 2: So I took a bit. 439 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 3: More of a matter of fact approach about it, like, well, 440 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 3: I guess this is what it is, and what do 441 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 3: I expect? And if I want something different, I have 442 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 3: to work harder. So so I ended up starting the 443 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 3: company because I was struggling to get a long term 444 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 3: contract and I talked a lot about it with my 445 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 3: female friends and my co founder at the time, Charlene 446 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 3: Chen came on a few months after I started, and 447 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,239 Speaker 3: she too was struggling to get contracts because of that, 448 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 3: and we would talk a lot about our male friends, 449 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 3: who would you know, eat dinner with us and talk 450 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 3: shop with us, but then not hire us or not 451 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 3: want to work with us. And once we started, we 452 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 3: saw a lot of you know, nasty things said about us, 453 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 3: and I think it was just really surprising. It was 454 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 3: almost like, up until that point it was under the hood, 455 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 3: and at a certain point everybody felt like they could 456 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 3: just say it to your face. 457 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 2: What was very. 458 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 3: Interesting was COVID happened and I became a single mother 459 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 3: right after I had my third child, and I just 460 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 3: had no choice anymore. I couldn't. 461 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 2: I did. I was nursing a baby on Zoom talking 462 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 2: to shareholders. 463 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 3: I was like, it's all out of the bag at 464 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,199 Speaker 3: this point, and it just was very freeing because I 465 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 3: had no choice. I think I started to realize that 466 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 3: the only attempts to be radical it takes a lifetime 467 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 3: to shake the things that we're taught. 468 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 1: Again, you're at this inflection point. It's a different place. 469 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: You're no longer in at Credit Suite or Goldman, You're 470 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: in a different country. You know, engage with a different 471 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: branch of financial services, different kind of financial service, and 472 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: you hit what could be a roadblock, but you don't 473 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: ultimately back down. 474 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 3: Well, at the same time, what am I going to do. 475 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 3: I'm unemployed in NYA with two kids, with a foreign 476 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 3: husband who I don't have a passport with. I'm three 477 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 3: thousand million miles from my family, so you know, I 478 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 3: have no choice. And I look around and there's a 479 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 3: woman balancing three infants selling tomatoes, sitting on the. 480 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 2: Floor, and I think, who the hell am I to complain? 481 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 2: And then I. 482 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 3: Realize there's always someone with less privilege. So even if 483 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:50,640 Speaker 3: you think you're under privilege, guess. 484 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 2: What, Usually you're at the top of the ladder somewhere. 485 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 3: So I think it just put things into perspective in 486 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 3: a crystal clear way get back to work. 487 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 1: And so out of that comes bit Pessa, the company 488 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: you found in twenty thirteen. 489 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it was ahead of its time and just 490 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 3: on time. It was doing a bitcoin to Kenyon chilling, 491 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 3: and the idea was we would use it as an 492 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 3: intermediary for remittances, bitcoin as an termediary currency or something. 493 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: And then you ride the bitcoin wave to great effect 494 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: for a number of years until the melty arrives essentially right. 495 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: You even had a partnership with FTX. 496 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I wish it had been one wave. 497 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 3: It was more like a brief wave, several droughts, a 498 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 3: couple of dull drugs, a few thunderstorms, and we very 499 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 3: quickly two years and went into trad by so we 500 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 3: were trading regular foreign exchange pairs as well, because it 501 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 3: just wasn't a business model. But yes, for ten years now, 502 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 3: we've been running this business. We rebranded several years ago 503 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 3: because the West African customers and team didn't like the 504 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 3: East African name of Pessa, which means money, and we 505 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 3: created as a and I think every time we hit 506 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 3: a snag, we just figured out how to keep going. 507 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: So you renamed Bitpessa as to capture two things. Better 508 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: branding but also the fact that you were no longer 509 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: just doing crypto and not just doing Kenya. You were 510 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: doing wide four X buying, settling, and selling African currencies 511 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 1: for businesses across the continent. 512 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 3: Even now, people try to say, oh, this little cue 513 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 3: company from Kenya, but actually we're the largest non pig 514 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 3: broker on the continent, and I think it's hard for 515 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:25,199 Speaker 3: a lot of people to believe. 516 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 2: Even you know, this week, I was at some place 517 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 2: and they're like you, how old are you? 518 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 3: You know your voice is so high? How could you 519 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 3: be a CEO or like all these crazy things people 520 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 3: say to me, and we're like, yeah, well we trade 521 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 3: you know, five billion a year. 522 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: The other thing to remember when you're setting up a 523 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: currency exchange like yours is it's an indispensable service to 524 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,360 Speaker 1: innumerable businesses across Africa who have all sorts of trouble 525 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: settling their own accounts if they're carrying euros and they're 526 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: carrying dollars in their own accounts to make foreign payments, 527 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: and they're exposed to interest rate risks and settlement risk 528 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: and all other sorts of problems that weren't intermediated prior 529 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: to as a finance coming on the scene. 530 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 3: At one point when we started, I think eighty percent 531 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 3: of African currency pairs against hard currencies were being routed 532 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 3: through two correspondent banks, Danchard and Deutsche, and so few 533 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 3: global brokers were making a market in these currency pairs. 534 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 3: Even now, we're one of the only brokers that does 535 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 3: Pan African pairs. Yes, you can find South African Rand 536 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 3: against Stirling, but it's really hard to find Central African 537 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 3: Frank against West African Frank, Nigerian there against Indian Citi. 538 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 3: It's still today hard. Nobody wanted to do something different, 539 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 3: and even the African banks we saw wanted to mimic 540 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 3: the European banks. That's another three podcasts why they do that. 541 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 3: But I mean, how do we really do something in 542 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 3: a different way? How do we not only step outside 543 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 3: the norm, but we then keep it and once we 544 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 3: get successful, you don't go back and buy the house 545 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 3: in Connecticut. 546 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 2: You keep investing in innovation. 547 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: Another part of your journey that I think is amazing 548 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,679 Speaker 1: is that as you carved out a path for yourself 549 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: through your work and through your platform, you also create 550 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 1: opportunities for other people, and you did it on the 551 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: ground in Africa and in a profound way. How many 552 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: people do you employ. 553 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 2: Now two hundred? 554 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 3: We had two forty when we started the partnership with FTX, 555 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 3: and then after they imploded and we have been building 556 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 3: for them some products, we had to let about thirty 557 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 3: people go, which was tough and get lean. But we 558 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 3: feel lucky that we survived that partnership and. 559 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: Didn't wind up with any reputational damage given what happened 560 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 1: to FTX. 561 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, but I mean, over the years, it's been a 562 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 3: few of them. There's been a couple of African startups 563 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 3: that have gone out. There's been a couple of crypto 564 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 3: companies that went out, and you know, we just try 565 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 3: to keep our own reputation, keep our own feet on 566 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,959 Speaker 3: the ground. It's been very difficult to raise money. As 567 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 3: you can imagine, two percent a venture financing goes towards females. 568 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 3: Even less goes towards females in Africa. I'm lucky because 569 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 3: I'm not an African female, and sometimes when investors look 570 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,439 Speaker 3: me into face, I might look like a female. They 571 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,199 Speaker 3: might have known one, and so they might hear my 572 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 3: voice in a slightly different way or whatever the Harvard 573 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 3: research says about how people make decisions. 574 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,439 Speaker 1: Do you think it's ironic that Africa, a continent that 575 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 1: has centuries of racial and economic and cultural oppression on 576 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 1: its back, that it's still struggling to get past that. 577 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: That's the continent that ended up being more liberating for 578 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: you as a woman in finance than developed markets might 579 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: have been. 580 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 3: It's a very entrepreneurial place. East Africa and West Africa specifically, 581 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 3: where have done the most work. 582 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 2: It's different in Southern Africa, I would say, but in. 583 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 3: Nigeria, I feel quite at home it's almost like New 584 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 3: York and the way that people work together across cultures 585 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 3: to do business. In Kenya, there is quite a history 586 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 3: of tribal communities, people hiring offices of their own tribe, 587 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 3: so that felt a little triggering to me from Wall Street. 588 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 3: And in Senegal, of course, it's incredibly religious and a 589 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 3: lot of my male counterparts or clients won't shake your 590 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 3: hand or even want to be in a room with you. 591 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 3: It's very religious there. So every country had its own challenges. 592 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 3: I love doing business in Nigeria and Ghana. It's anglica 593 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 3: West African culture where I find it very entrepreneurial, very open, 594 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 3: very welcoming, less restrictive in terms of where you're from. 595 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 3: And I think there are places around the world, even 596 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 3: if they're very far from your home, that might have 597 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 3: cultural similarities, especially in the way of doing business, and 598 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 3: even though you know you on the other side of 599 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 3: the planet. You really look to the fundamentals. How do 600 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 3: they establish trust in the culture, How open are they 601 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 3: the new entrance, how willing are they to pick outside 602 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 3: the box, what's their risk appetite, what's the level of 603 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 3: context they need in decision making? And I think that's 604 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 3: what I look for now when I go to a 605 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 3: new place to do business. 606 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: On that note, I'm going to take another break. Elizabeth, 607 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 1: we'll hear from a sponsor and we'll come right back, 608 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: and we're back with Elizabeth Rossiello, a fintech entrepreneur and 609 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: a very interesting financial pioneer. She's the CEO of Aza Finance, 610 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 1: a fintech and four X company based in Nairobi and London. 611 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: We've been talking a lot about your own exploits and successes, 612 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: as well as the challenges you've faced as a woman 613 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: in a male dominated industry. We talked about some of 614 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: those factors, just you know, the blatant sexism that men 615 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: carry in with them into workplaces, everything that happens around 616 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: motherhood and pregnancies and raising children. I wondered about a 617 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: third factor in all of this, which is advocacy. You 618 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: seem to me to be a very almost a natively 619 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: well skilled self advocate. Do you think being an advocate 620 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: for themselves and self advocacy in the workplace remains a 621 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: challenge for women as well in terms of getting ahead, 622 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: getting promote, to getting proper compensation, et cetera, et. 623 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 2: Cetera, and it's true. 624 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 3: I think I have less nerve endings than other people 625 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 3: at this point, and that lets me keep going after 626 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 3: you know, you get slapped with these comments people make. 627 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 3: I think you were in a meeting the other day 628 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 3: and someone said, I can't imagine you hugging your children, 629 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 3: you're so good at business, and I was like, you know, 630 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 3: done for a little bit. And I've repeated that quite 631 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 3: a few times. And this is a peer my age, 632 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 3: my age in an innovative startup culture, talking about empowering females, 633 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 3: and he said this in front of several people. You know, 634 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 3: that's one of the milder comments I get. I just 635 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 3: get it constantly, and it's very hard to keep going 636 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 3: when you hear these things. And luckily I have a 637 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 3: team around me who sees it. And my CFO came 638 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 3: from traditional finance and he had never really worked with 639 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 3: women before, and I don't think he believed me when 640 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 3: I told them stories, but just going to meetings with me, 641 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 3: he's coming out like, I can't believe they said that. 642 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 3: And now when I start to talk back and advocate 643 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 3: for myself, he's joining me. And I think you can 644 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 3: take it in two ways. It can be crushing, you know, 645 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 3: And that's fair. It's not everybody should have bur nerd Bendings. 646 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 3: But I think when I talk back and when I advocate, 647 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 3: I almost get more of it. 648 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 2: So it is hard to draw the line. Do I 649 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 2: want this. 650 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 3: Partner or do I want to stand out for myself? 651 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 3: Do I want this person on my board because of 652 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 3: their network, or do I not want to be sexually 653 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 3: harassed at dinner every time I go to dinner with them? 654 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 3: You know, It's like that's just a general tough decision 655 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 3: on how to lead your life that a lot of 656 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 3: women in finance or not have to deal with. And 657 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 3: I think I've chosen to speak up at least at 658 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 3: this part of my life for many reasons. You know, 659 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 3: one of my junior team members a few years ago 660 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 3: had an unfortunate incident on a sales meeting, and I 661 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 3: not only spoke up, I called the CEO of the bank, 662 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 3: I got the compliance team involved, I got their internal 663 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 3: audit involved, and I tried to advocate for her. And 664 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 3: I think that's all we really can do if we 665 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 3: want to keep going to break the cycle. 666 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: You and I first intersected at a conference in Marrakesh, 667 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: a Bloomberg Conference and you were on a paddle talking 668 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: about talent hubs, and that was one of the things 669 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: that made a light bulb go off in my head 670 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: as I was sitting in the audience learning from you. 671 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: And one of the focuses of that conversation where talent 672 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: hubs in Africa, and part of the discussion turned Towardella 673 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: in Legos, Nigeria and Della is I think probably the 674 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: first serious coding academy on the African continent and students 675 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: came out of that being able to man much higher 676 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: salaries than young Africans were used to demanding in the workplace. 677 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: And you really focused on the idea of how important 678 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: talent hubs are, and I thought to myself that really 679 00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: intersects in a way as well with your own experience, 680 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: because a talent hub is essentially trying to force a 681 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: mentoring device into a culture, or into an economy or 682 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: into a location that ideally provides opportunity for people who 683 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: are still sorting out how to grasp opportunity. Does your 684 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: experience as a woman in finance and a woman encountering 685 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: the various challenges you've had, but also finding mentors who 686 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: went out of their way to help you. Does that 687 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: inform your philosophy about the importance of talent hubs in Africa? 688 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 3: Well, I think it informs my philosophy that you don't 689 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 3: have to look and act and be from the same 690 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 3: parents as everybody you think you do to be successful. 691 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 2: And success can come from all sorts of places. 692 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 3: Credit Worthy people can come from all sorts of places, 693 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 3: and talent can come from anywhere. And if you take 694 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 3: that shade off your eyes about what it looks like, 695 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 3: what talent is supposed to look like, their resume, their hairstyle, their. 696 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: Accents, the color of their skin. 697 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, how high pitch their voices. I can't tell you 698 00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 3: how many idiots told many the voice training early in 699 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 3: my career, you know. So, Like I think what I've 700 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 3: been a little hard to see is that some of 701 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 3: the successful peers I had, even in acros, in legos 702 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 3: in Nairobi, these guys that started out with me, once 703 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 3: they get a little success, they moved back to the 704 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 3: US or they get the cards and the political appointees, 705 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 3: and they act like the people we were trying to rebelegance. 706 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 3: That's the history of time of humans all over the world. 707 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 3: But I do hope that once we realize we don't 708 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 3: have to be like the people before us, we can 709 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 3: be radical and be successful. 710 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 2: We kind of stay. 711 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: Radical because crash courses about learning things. What have you 712 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: learned if you look back at the Elizabeth Russiello who 713 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: was in grad school in New York and the accomplished 714 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: woman right now who's in both Nairobi and London making 715 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: a career and a life for herself, what have you learned? 716 00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 3: Boundaries and Jeff, don't let people thoughts and ideas and 717 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 3: funds and stakeholders who don't share your values. 718 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 2: Live rent free in your brain. 719 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 3: You know, like, if they don't share your values, don't 720 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 3: let them into your vision. You got to just believe 721 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 3: in your vision, get people around you who believe in 722 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 3: that vision, live your values on what you want to 723 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 3: do and what you want to be who you want 724 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 3: to be. 725 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 2: And if the people come in and it looks like 726 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 2: you have to follow them, don't do it. 727 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 3: You don't You make the rules of your own life. 728 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 3: And there's so many paths to success. People get pressured 729 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 3: to replicate a path I've seems somewhere else, and it 730 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 3: takes a lot of bravery not to do that, and 731 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 3: I work on finding that every morning. 732 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: What a nice note to end a podcast on. Thanks 733 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 1: for joining us today. Thanks here at Crash Course, we 734 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,799 Speaker 1: believe that collisions can be messy, impressive, challenging, surprising, and 735 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,879 Speaker 1: always instructive. In today's Crash Course, I learned that boundaries 736 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: shouldn't hold you back, that you can create your own 737 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 1: paths even if you feel like you're being told no, 738 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: and you can get ahead to some extent on your own. 739 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 1: But you also need to get by with a little 740 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: help from your friends. What did you learn? We'd love 741 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: to hear from you. You can tweet at the Bloomberg 742 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,439 Speaker 1: Opinion handle at Opinion or me at Tim O'Brien using 743 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 1: the hashtag Bloomberg Crash Course. You can also subscribe to 744 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: our show wherever you're listening right now and leave us 745 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: a review that helps more people find the show. This 746 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 1: episode was produced by the indispensable Moses ondem Anna Maserakas 747 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: and me. Our supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson, and we 748 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: had editing help from Sage Bauman, Katie Boyce, Jeff Crocott, 749 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: Mike nitze At, Christine Vanden Bilert Blake Maple says, our 750 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: sound engineering and our original theme song was composed by 751 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: Luis Gara. I'm Tim O'Brien. We'll be back next week 752 00:35:58,239 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: with another crash course.