1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: Ridiculous history is a production of I Heart Radio. If 2 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: there's something strange in your neighborhood, who in fact should 3 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: you call? If there's something weird and it don't look good, 4 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,959 Speaker 1: you just might better call good Ghostbusters. Hi, I'm bad, 5 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: I'm an old trademark. Um what is it? Huey Lewis. 6 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: Huey Lewis sued was the Roy Parker, Roy Parker, Ray Parker, 7 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: Casey on the case with that one that's also a 8 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: super producer Casey Pecker double the double sound cute. Yeah, 9 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: Ray Parker Junior. Uh, famously sued by Huey Lewis. If 10 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: I want a new drug fame, if you want a 11 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: fun little side by side, it's uh, don't don't dug it, 12 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: dunt dun don't don't dig versus I think I want 13 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: a new drug is pretty much that dun't don't right. 14 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: But but it's it's more about the chugging little under 15 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: there's like stabs that are like dune dunt dunt dunt dune. Well, 16 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 1: thank god that litigation did not sink one of my 17 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: favorite childhood franchises of all time, The Ghostbusters. I mean, 18 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: it was the most desired Halloween costume by Miles and Miles. 19 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: You know, did you have the proton pack? Did you 20 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: have the little suit? Yeah? Oh, I had the whole thing. 21 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: I had the I had the the station, the firehouse, 22 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: you had the firehouse, you had the hearse or ambulance? 23 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: What was it? It was a hearse but it was 24 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: called it was called the Ecto five. Yeah. I had 25 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: a lot wrapped up in the Ghostbusters franchise. Even now, 26 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: one of my cats is named Dr Vankman, So I 27 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: I carried that. I carried that with me, triumphs and 28 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: traumas alike. Well, I'll tell you why that is is 29 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:16,679 Speaker 1: because it was funny, poignant, heartwarming, and I'm most importantly 30 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: pretty spooky. Yeah, and I support We're we're continuing with 31 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: our Halloween in November behind the curve activity here, which 32 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: is again our men's warehouse asked guarantee we will usually 33 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,519 Speaker 1: be behind the curve. We hope it's appealing. We were 34 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: digging into the concept of Ghostbusters and before we traveled 35 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: to today's episode by way of segue, let's just mention 36 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: that there was a recent reboot of Ghostbusters where in 37 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: the four protagonists were all played by female actors. Do 38 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: you remember that. Did you see that one? I did, Um, 39 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 1: I quite enjoyed it. The Internet didn't really like it 40 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 1: very much. But the Internet said, you know, toxic hive 41 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: of scum and villainy, as we all know. Yeah, the 42 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: Internet is very into not liking things. So so also 43 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: its relationship with women is very complicated. I would say, 44 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: I would say terrible. It's like saying in cells have 45 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 1: a complicated relationship there. But yeah, I also enjoyed the reboot, 46 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: the newest reboot. I hope they do more in that vein. 47 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: But this inspired knowl you and I to look into 48 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: concepts of ghostbusting, and we found, with the help of 49 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: our research associate Gabe, we found a story of someone 50 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: who might be called one of the original ghostbusters, a 51 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: woman named Rose Macenburg, who was described as a spook 52 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: spy yeah, or what we might know now as paranormal investigator. Yeah, 53 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: that's a thing. Ghost hunters and the like, and and 54 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: the what's the name of the couple from the war 55 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: Conjuring films, Yeah, the war Ends they were. They were 56 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: actually real folks who made this their life's mission. And 57 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: this is a very early example of that, and one 58 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: of my favorite historical illusionists, escape artists, Houdini, Harry Judini 59 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: is a big part of this story, right, Um, As 60 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: you say, Ben Rose Macknburgh considered herself to be a 61 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 1: spook spy and Harry Judini himself referred to her as 62 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: his quote girl detective, which is more than a little 63 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: bit of a loaded term. Was that him or was 64 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: that the media of the day. Yeah, that's a good question. 65 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: It's not quite clear, um, But whoever referred to her 66 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: as that, it was definitely a name that stuck. Um. 67 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: There was at the time, as we discussed in the 68 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: last episode, in the early part of the twentieth century, 69 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: a renewed interest in spiritualism and spooky stories that was 70 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: largely a result of again as we as we mentioned 71 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: last episode, Um, you know this new burgeoning middle class 72 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: and folks moving from rural areas to more densely populated 73 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: city areas and um changing up that routine and living 74 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: in these kind of you know, larger houses, et cetera, 75 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: and bringing some of those tales that might have been 76 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: more folk tales into more of a melting pot situation 77 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: and things ended up getting remixed, right absolutely, And if 78 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: Harry Houdini's day job and the way he earned his bread, 79 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: butter and handcuffs was working as an escape artist, a mentalist. 80 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: One of his first loves. In his personal life, one 81 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: of his primary hobbies was busting what he and Macknburg 82 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: would go on to call the ghost racket. And I 83 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: love the idea of a ghost racket. I had afraid 84 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: to know ghost racket right. Uh. This was in the 85 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: early twentieth century. Again, as you said, Macknburg would travel 86 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 1: to places where Houdini was scheduled to perform, and along 87 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: the way she would bust frauds, fake ghosts, uh knor 88 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: is pretending to be mediums, and so on. Interestingly enough, 89 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: Makenburg was once herself a devout spiritual list, but she 90 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: became disillusioned throughout her time investigating these things, and she 91 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: ended up becoming even more skeptical than she was at 92 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: the beginning. I'm not sure we ever sighted this publication before, 93 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: but sci fi dot Com has a pretty cool article 94 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: about how Rose Mackinburg became the first female Ghostbusters when 95 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 1: this former believer turned skeptic. And this turn, I don't know, 96 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: I think, um, what what was the turn in her 97 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: uh in her life that caused her to go from 98 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: believer to skeptic. Ben Well, honestly, Nolan, we'll we'll dive 99 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: into this a little further Intoday Show. Honestly, it's it's 100 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: more a case of constantly searching for something that purports 101 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: to be genuine and literally every time seeing it disproven. 102 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: You think those Scooby Doo kids would have gotten the 103 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: hang of that eventually, right. It's always an old dude 104 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 1: and a mask that owns a private amusement park or 105 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: abandoned farmers. You were there when always complaining about this 106 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: last week at the local bar. They should just call 107 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: it Scooby Doo finds old men. And then once the 108 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: blonde guy's name who always has the horribleody, Freddie, who 109 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: always has the worst ideas. He's like to know what 110 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: gang we should split up? I've got an ascot. I'm 111 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: a real hunk. Yeah, you know what I mean. And 112 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: it's such a it's such a rip off because it 113 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: is so so rarely a supernatural antagonist in Scooby Doo. 114 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: It's agist. It never is in the original series. Well, 115 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: in the newer series, which is still Cannon, there there 116 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: are some supernatural events. But I got so tired of 117 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: that where it was this ageist stuff against old men 118 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: like you you heard us talking about that. Yeah, it's 119 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: all coming back to me now for sure. I believe 120 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: we saw a young woman dressed up as Velma and 121 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: then it all went from there. And you asked about 122 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: was it Fred that was the dumb blonde boy? Yeah, yeah, who. 123 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to go on record and say that the 124 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: Velma is probably the smartest, uh most well adjusted, just 125 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,239 Speaker 1: because Thelma is the best member of Scooby Doo, totally 126 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: the best non canine member of Scoopy. But she has 127 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: a fatal flaw. She always loses her glasses during the 128 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: clutch moment where she could really make all the difference. 129 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: She's always down on her hands and knees searching around 130 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: those glasses. Just get get one of those headbands like 131 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: racquetball players have agreed they never really learned their lesson 132 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: to do that. But yeah, it's unfortunate because Rose Mackenburg. 133 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: There's not a whole lot of info out there about her. 134 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: What we do know is that she kind of became 135 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: disillusioned with spiritualism after again, like you said, Ben, Scooby 136 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: Doo style, constantly being let down and seeing people swindled 137 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,559 Speaker 1: um and uh and taking advantage of by folks purporting 138 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: to be spiritual advisors or mediums of sorts. And starting 139 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties, she began to make this her 140 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: life's mission as a private investigator, debunking some of these charlatans. Yes, 141 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: and there was no shortage of those aforementioned charlatan's during 142 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties. The world was still recovering from things 143 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: like the First World War, the Spanish flu pandemic, and more. 144 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: These sorts of disasters which lead to the breakdown of 145 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: institutions and rule of law, lad the masses to look 146 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: for a higher law, some sort of involvable system right 147 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: that would not be at the mercy of the ebb 148 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: and flow of the you know, the chaotic turn of 149 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: events that we call day to day mortal life. And 150 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 1: so one of the things people turned to was spiritualism. 151 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 1: Spiritualism was the belief that not only does an afterlife exist, 152 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:55,199 Speaker 1: but that through certain means, anyone, whether through an intermediary 153 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 1: or through a some sort of device or some sort 154 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: of ritual, anyone can and communicate beyond that Veil of Tears. 155 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, you'll recognize him as the mastermind 156 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: behind Sherlock Holmes was one of the big time proponents 157 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: of spiritualism, and he said, this stuff is great. I know, 158 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: you guys have heard of like falling in love and 159 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: sliced bread, and those are pretty good, but they're at 160 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: best to be plus compared to this new thing that 161 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: I call spiritualism. And his influence was countered by another famous, 162 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: highly intellectual person, the magician and escape artist Harry Houdini. 163 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: And Harry Houdini essentially said, you know, Sir Arthur Cronan Doyle, 164 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: was interesting about what you're saying is that it's absolutely 165 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: wrong and you're making yourself sound stupid for believing in it. 166 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: But I'm not going to stop there. I'm gonna put 167 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: together my own kind of Avengers team and we're going 168 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: to take it to the streets. We're on a crusade 169 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: against the ghost racket. These people are not real mediums. 170 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: They do not have the best interests of their clients 171 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: at heart. They are con artists and they are out 172 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: there to build vulnerable people at the most vulnerable moment 173 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: of their lives. And I, by god, I'm going to 174 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: put a stop to it. Yeah. And one of the 175 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: reasons too, that Hudini had such an issue with this 176 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: is even folks like in his profession as illusionists, which 177 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, like, I don't think anyone purported to 178 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: be like I'm a wizard. You know. It's like it 179 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: was like Vaudeville. It was meant to be seen as 180 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: a craft, you know what I mean, Like you need 181 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: to not act as though he were some sort of 182 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: divine character, you know, like he was just a performer 183 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: who was very, very good at what he did. But 184 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: some folks that were in his profession would kind of 185 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: become these self styled kind of doctor Strange type figures 186 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 1: and occultists and have these themes behind their shows. Uh. 187 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: And maybe they didn't go so far as to say 188 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: they were able to manifest spirits or whatever, but they 189 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 1: certainly wouldn't deny that they actually had these powers, these 190 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: infernal powers, right, So that rubbed him the wrong way. 191 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: And um, I want to make it clear to Rose Macknburg, 192 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: it was kind of when she again, like you said, Ben, 193 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: she uh kind of had become disillusioned with this. Uh. 194 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: The study of spiritualism that she was into as a 195 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: teenager when she started seeing it being used in the 196 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: same way that Houdini didn't care for, even though his 197 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,959 Speaker 1: might have been a little more ego driven than actual benevolence. 198 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: Right um. But it was when she did her first 199 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: case um investigating spiritual fraud that she really decided, okay, uh, 200 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: this is a real problem and I I am now 201 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: willing to sacrifice my own beliefs in the service of 202 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: helping others. And Houdini himself, you know, you're right. It 203 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: was ego driven a bit, but he had a deep 204 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: personal beef with people claiming to have this, uh, this 205 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: exclusive access to the spirit world. He thought it was 206 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: the real thing. At first he did. Yeah. In his 207 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: mother passed away and Judini was so deep in the 208 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: grief of losing one of the most important people in 209 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: his life that he completely stopped performing and he started, 210 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: despite you know, the best arguments his rational mind could construct. 211 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 1: In desperation to alleviate this grief, he started seeking out 212 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: the Council people purporting to be spiritual mediums, and not 213 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: only did he encounter, to his mind, fraud after fraud 214 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: after fraud, but he could also see through it, you 215 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: know what I mean? He would say, Okay, this person 216 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:49,199 Speaker 1: has their hand under the table and there tapping from 217 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: the bottom of the table and pretending to be my 218 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 1: dead mother for what a bit of cash? Yeah, basically, 219 00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: And I mean a lot of this stuff continues today 220 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: with like cold readings and a lot of these techniques 221 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: that are have been maybe refined over time, but there's 222 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 1: definitely still a market um largely and maybe television. I 223 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: don't know. Well, you know, the thing is, people should 224 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: be able to believe what they want and do what 225 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: they want, unless they're hurting the others while doing it, 226 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: you know. So Judini after seeing this, is incredibly profoundly offended. 227 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: He's also concerned that other people may be taken in, 228 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: other more credulous folks may be taken in by these 229 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: sorts of Shenanigans. Enter Rose Macknburg. Mackinburg grew up in 230 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: New York City during the first few decades of the 231 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, Like you said, Noel, as a teenager, she 232 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: did believe in spiritualism. She caught on it was very popular. 233 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: It was in the Zeitgeist, uh not the daily one 234 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 1: daily Zeitgeist. And excellent show. Do check that out. But 235 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: in the zeitgeist of the time, and she was introduced 236 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: to Harry Houdini probably as close as we can tell 237 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: sometime uh in the early nineteen twenties or late nineteen tens, 238 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: And when she first encountered Houdini, she had been working 239 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: as a p I, a private detective for a number 240 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:24,359 Speaker 1: of years. Their initial meeting came about when she consulted 241 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: the magician about one of her own investigations, which involved 242 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: the case of spirit fraud. Yeah, he saw something in 243 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: her and invited her to join his crack team of 244 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: around twenty undercover p i s that he referred to 245 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: as his secret service, and they were all paid a 246 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: salary and he um enlisted them to travel along actually 247 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: ahead of him on his touring spots to kind of 248 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: suss out the towns and and sniff out any of 249 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: these spiritual frauds that might be there waiting for him, 250 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: so they were to symbol a brief for him. They 251 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: would find things like table tipping, that's when furniture appears 252 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: to move on its own through some sort of ghostly telekinesis. 253 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: They would also find things called spirit trumpets. This phenomenon 254 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: which was supposed to magnify the ordinarily inaudible whispers of 255 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: the dead, but was actually ventriloquism. And table tipping was 256 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: kind of like weige aboard stuff controlled by the unconscious 257 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: movements of participants. And there was billet breading, where psychics 258 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: seemed to know what was inside a sealed envelope. The 259 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: thing is the envelope was either sealed by a plant 260 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: or a plant was involved in sort of feeding them 261 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: the answers. And this wasn't like this was dangerous work. 262 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: I mean, these were folks that were actually this was 263 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: their their stock and trade. They were making money, uh 264 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: in these in these towns, you know, taking advantage of people. 265 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: It was sort of elaborate form of huckster is them, 266 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: you know, And they wouldn't take kindly to being debunked 267 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: in this way, being exposed. I mean, it was the 268 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: equivalent of shutting down someone's livelihood. Um, obviously it was 269 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: it was deserved. But this was a problem and it 270 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: made a Houdini and Rose quite a few uh enemies. 271 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 1: And the thing is, it wasn't just the racketeers that 272 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: had a problem with what Rose and Houdini were doing. 273 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: It was the ones that actually believed this stuff um 274 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: wholeheartedly as well, and it would potentially cause like riots 275 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: in the streets between the phony spiritualists, um, the anti spiritualists, 276 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 1: and also the hucksters. Right yeah, yeah, and let maybe 277 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,479 Speaker 1: let's say pro spiritualists, because as you said, there were 278 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: the true believers and then there were the con artists 279 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: were more than willing to get those folks on their side, 280 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,959 Speaker 1: right for for these riots. That's the thing. This was 281 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: a community. This was not a situation of isolated scam 282 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 1: artists functioning alone. And the fact that was a community 283 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: meant that Houdini's Avengers would be eventually recognized. You could 284 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: only bust so many scams before a word got around. 285 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: Look for this lady, Rose Macknburg, she's after you. And 286 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 1: due to the threat of recognition, due to also, as 287 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: you said, the very real sense of physical danger, Rose 288 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: and her cohort and her colleagues started wearing disguises. It 289 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 1: got to the point where Mackenburgh's first stop in any 290 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: new town was a department store and she didn't just buy, 291 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: you know, whatever. She was in the mood to where 292 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 1: she would scope out the area first. This is impressive. 293 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: And she would say, Okay, let me get a sense 294 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: of the demographics. What do the women in this town where? Uh, 295 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: you know, what to the school teachers where? What do 296 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: the what do the widows wear? Maybe? What do the 297 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 1: the successful people wear? What do the lower socioeconomic scale where? 298 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: And then she would figure out what was appropriate. But 299 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: she didn't stop there. She also aged herself with makeup 300 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: and I believe that at least a couple of times 301 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: she wore a fake hearing aid. Isn't that right? Yeah? 302 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: She had all kinds of props, which is pretty interesting 303 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 1: considering the fakery involved in some of the spiritual um 304 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, hoaxes that she was trying to debunk. Right. Absolutely. 305 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: There's a great book on her by a guy named 306 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 1: Tony Wolf. The book is called Houdini's Girl Detective, The 307 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: Real Life Ghostbusting Adventures of Rose Macenburg, and Wolf says 308 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 1: that during her work for Houdini, Mackenburgh would travel to 309 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: these towns and attend as many seances as she could, 310 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: disguised as a devout believer. And I hope, folks, I 311 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: hope that you love these names as much as I do. 312 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: They're terrible, Uh, she would have aliases such as Francis 313 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: rod F rod f r a u D, Florence b 314 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: Rush or Alicia Bunk all is a Bunk And after 315 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: she attended a ton of these seances, she would come 316 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: back and report everything she learned to Houdini, and she 317 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: would also describe what they were purporting to do and 318 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 1: what she thought the tricks actually were. Then Houdini would 319 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: arrive in the same town maybe a week or two 320 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: later for his show and boom, boom boom, he would 321 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: bust the medium as a fraud. This became his routine 322 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 1: until Harry Houdini died on Halloween in nineteen twenty six 323 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: in the most underwhelming way imaginable. Right. You picture a 324 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 1: guy like this who put himself in these deifying situations 325 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: all the time, dying in some elaborate way, like falling 326 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,400 Speaker 1: from a building to his death or you know, drowning 327 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: in one of those glass dunk tank things that he 328 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: would always try to escape from. But why did he 329 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: ultimately die? I think he asked someone to punch him 330 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: in the stomach when when he wasn't expecting it, and 331 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 1: that ultimately is what caused his demise. Yeah, yeah, like 332 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: a ab flexing Icarus. Uh, he put his belly too 333 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: close to the fist. Is that even true? Though? Ben? Uh? 334 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 1: You know, I just like the Icarus reference. Longtime listeners 335 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: will know him fun to that one, But what it 336 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 1: appears to be is more a ruptured appendix. However, according 337 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 1: to multiple sources, the circumstances around how he how he 338 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: actually expired are still kind of mysterious and hazy. Today, 339 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: we do know that he definitely died on Halloween and 340 00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: all of this kind of uh was the groundwork for 341 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:03,120 Speaker 1: all this was laid well before Halloween of that year, 342 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: when on October eleven UM, he was injured with a 343 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: piece of faulty equipment during that very the Chinese water 344 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,719 Speaker 1: torture sell stunt that he was so well known for. 345 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: And then on October UM, during a lecture actually in 346 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: Montreal at McGill University UM, he invited a young man 347 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: named Gordon Whitehead to punch him in the stomach. Oh, 348 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 1: he didn't invite him, Jay. Gordon Whitehead was one of 349 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: the McGill's students in the dressing room, and Whitehead asked 350 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: Judy was like, Hey, is it true that you can 351 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 1: You know, people can punch you, however, they want in 352 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: your stomach and he This was a publicly known thing 353 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: about Houdini. And then, according to the witness, a guy 354 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: named Sam Smillovitz, Houdini said the rumors were true. He 355 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, that's true. And then without any warning, 356 00:22:53,880 --> 00:23:00,159 Speaker 1: Whitehead immediately hauled off and punched him multiple time, like 357 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 1: four or five really hard times in his stomach. And 358 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: he needed time to prepare to receive those punches because 359 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: he was just sort of laying on a couch, and 360 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: so because he didn't prepare for it, he was in pain. 361 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: He brushed off the incident, but then later that night, 362 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: the twenty two, he started to experience stomach cramps and discomfort. 363 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: His condition got worse and worse. He took a train 364 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: to Detroit. On the train, he developed severe stomach paining, 365 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 1: cold sweats, fatigues. His doctors suspected appendicitis, and it's crazy. 366 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 1: According to history dot com, these kind of really mortal 367 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: cases of appendicitis are super rare, uh and there was 368 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: a study they cite that they found only a few 369 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: dozen over a twenty year period. Um. But Houdini's diagnosis 370 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 1: was pretty much accepted, and his wife even received a 371 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: life insurance policy, a double indemnity life insurance payout for 372 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: this accidental death because it was connected to the punching 373 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: it exactly yet and so he did expire after a 374 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 1: real terrible time on October thirty one, which you know, 375 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: Houdini is such a fascinating character, but he wasn't entirely 376 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 1: a villain. And I want to make you know, we 377 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: want to make sure that we're fair to Houdini and 378 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: to Makenburg and to all their colleagues, because they were 379 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: busting con artists, that's exactly what they were doing. But 380 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: that doesn't necessarily mean that they were these uh grim 381 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: atheist or that they had no belief in the supernatural 382 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: because wild people like Tony Wolf, where other historians would 383 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: say that Houdini and Makenburg probably didn't have any real 384 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 1: belief and spiritualism, they were always careful to frame themselves 385 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 1: as agnostics when they spoke about this in public. It 386 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: was a article for the Saturday Evening Post where where 387 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 1: in Rose Makenburgh said she wasn't really anti spiritualism as 388 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: much as anti Charlatan, And we have a quote from 389 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: that article. We do, indeed, I do not impugne spiritualism 390 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: as a sect or as a sincere religious belief. There 391 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: are many intellectually honest persons, some mediums included. Who gets 392 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: solace from a belief in contacts with the afterworld? Um, 393 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 1: isn't what what Prince calls it in the speech before 394 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: Let's Go Crazy the afterworld? Pretty sure? Oh my gosh, 395 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 1: I love. That's first only other place I've I've seen 396 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 1: it referred to as that I usually see the afterlife. 397 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: But link continue, that's not the quote. That's just that's 398 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: just you're talking about Prince. This is me talking about Press. Hey, 399 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 1: I'm just talking about Prince. Shut your mouth, my work. 400 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: This is the quote, and this article concern only those 401 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: mediums who deceive trusting persons. Is there any medium who 402 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: can actually call up the spirits of the dead and 403 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: put them into verbal communication with the living? I don't know, 404 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: there may be. All can testify to is that I 405 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: have never met any, which sounds fair, right, It's fair. 406 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: It's it's not it's not agro, it's not rude. It's 407 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: just that I I don't know whether it exists. I 408 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: just haven't found any. So this catches the eye of 409 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: Congress to Let's let's backtrack a little bit before Houdini's death. 410 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: On Halloween, Houdini eventually went before Congress to testify about 411 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 1: a proposed anti fortune telling bill that was meant to 412 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: ban people from pretending to tell fortunes for reward or compensation, 413 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: or pretending to unite the separated. That's as described by 414 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: William Caluch in his book The Secret Life of Houdini. 415 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: So before the first hearing begins on February, Houdini sends 416 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: Rose Macknburg to d see and she is tasked with 417 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: doing the thing she always does, which is to try 418 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: to find some mediums. So she does her bit. She 419 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: finds mediums, she figures out what tricks or techniques these 420 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: mediums are using, and then Houdini comes into town to 421 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: deliver this case He's made. He's done this ted talk 422 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 1: a thousand times right. It's it's part an expose, it's 423 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 1: part snarky entertainment. But word of the anti fortune telling 424 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: bill Hr. Eight nine eight nine had spread through again 425 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: the spiritualist community, and local mediums turned out in force. 426 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: Uh Two of the leaders of the pro spiritualist side 427 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: of this argument were a minister named Jane B. Coates 428 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: and an astrologer named Marcia Champney. And that bill HR 429 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: would have left fine on any quote, any person pretending 430 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 1: to tell fortunes for reward or compensation um. That could 431 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: have also been paired with six months in prison um. 432 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: And that's in that's within Washington, d C. The nation's capital. Um. 433 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:16,719 Speaker 1: And the bill was essentially built on the foundation of 434 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 1: these assertions that it's just not possible to see the future. Therefore, 435 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: it kind of renders the spirituality argument sort of moot, right, 436 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: it deflates even the true believers position, which is probably 437 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:36,199 Speaker 1: was controversial I imagine, yeah, yeah. And spiritualist of course 438 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: reacted diversely to this. They said, communicating with the dead 439 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: is a matter of faith, meaning that it is protected 440 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: under the First Amendment. That's a really good point. I mean, 441 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: it is separation. How is that any that's like saying, 442 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: you know, Jesus wasn't real or like you, if you 443 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,479 Speaker 1: believe in Jesus or or or a priest or a preacher, 444 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: then you're a fraud or a charlatan. How How is 445 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: asking people for alms or for uh, you know, donations 446 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: and the collection played at church any different from this 447 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: and based on these rules. Yeah, and we have to 448 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: remember this is very much a legalistic letter of the 449 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: law situation. Rose Macknburg is also in d C with Houdini, 450 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: need to testify about the mediums she visited in d 451 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: C beforehand. She delivers a bombshell that day. She says 452 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: congressman and senators regularly attended seances and one congressman's wife 453 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: is in fact a medium. Not only that, she says 454 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: these seances have been held at the White House hunt. 455 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: Her testimony rocked Washington. The White House was not happy 456 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: about this because clearly they you know, they were not 457 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: an objective party here, and they immediately denied this accusation. 458 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: But at the end it didn't matter because the bill 459 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: never really passed due to some of the you know, 460 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: the greater concerns we just outlined. And then, as we said, 461 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: Judini passes away in Halloween of six. But this is 462 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: not the end of Rose Macenburg. She continues her career afterwards. Right. Yeah, 463 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: it's crazy she was with him right up until that 464 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: is his last breath, because she was there with him 465 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: in Montreal and was participating in the lectures that he 466 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: was giving, which which which the contents were largely about 467 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: this kind of stuff, debunking these these fraudsters. Um. And 468 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: there is footage of this that is in a Hudini 469 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: documentary that Unitpix Productions put out, which I have not seen, 470 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: what I would love to. You can read a little 471 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: bit more about this on the Magic Detective dot com 472 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: in the article Hudini's Mysterious Girl Detective. Um that that 473 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: that didn't appear to be a moniker that stuck. Um. 474 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,479 Speaker 1: There's a really interesting detail or really interesting little bit 475 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: of trivia here. A guy named Julian Proskauer who was 476 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: another one of these ghost racket investigators. He estimated in 477 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty two that the number of people taken in 478 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: by these hoaxes were about thirty million a year. And uh, 479 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: at the cost personally to these individuals of a hundred 480 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,959 Speaker 1: and twenty five million dollars, that's insane. That's a huge industry. 481 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: That's like the economy of scale in those days. That's insane. Man. Yeah, 482 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: it's a huge industry. And also keep in mind that's 483 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: a five million total at thirty millions a year, and 484 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: that's still that's nineteen thirty two dollars. Rose continued pursuing 485 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,479 Speaker 1: this line of work. This was a passion project for her. 486 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: It was a personal vocation and she pursued it throughout 487 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: the Great Depression. She investigated on behalf of insurance companies, 488 00:31:54,160 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: law firms, better business bureaus, newspapers, other other institutions of 489 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: that sort. She was the guide to the Chicago Tribunes 490 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: approached the spiritualist underworld of Chicago, and she wrote a 491 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: bunch of cv nex moose articles. She would do demonstrations 492 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: of common con artists tricks for nonprofits. And she lived 493 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: long enough to see the cycle continued. Time as a wheel, 494 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: time as a flat circle. All things come back around again. 495 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: So the Second World War ushers in another revival of spiritualism, 496 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: and then she sees it again during the Korean War. 497 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: And in nineteen fifty one, during an interview, she estimates 498 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: that there are some hundred and fifty thousand mediums active 499 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: in the US, and she said the number will continue 500 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: to rise as long as the war continues. So she 501 00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: had been interviewed in a number of different publications American magazine, 502 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: Call Yours, Popular Science, and so on. She had eventually 503 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: given up or retired from investigating this sort of activity 504 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: because she had quote grown tired of sitting in dark rooms. 505 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: She said that no number of exposures seemed to shake 506 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: the faith of believers, and it turns out she was right. 507 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: As of the modern American psychic services industry is estimated 508 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: to be worth slightly over to billion dollars. But you know, 509 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: we should say it's changed as well. There are not 510 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: many people attempted to use ectoplasm and stuff like that, no, 511 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 1: because I mean people are largely because of the you know, 512 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: things like the Internet and the proliferation of information and 513 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: people being able to kind of check behind some of 514 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: these things. Unless you really want to believe and be 515 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: willfully ignorant, it's a lot harder to get taken in 516 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,719 Speaker 1: by some of these these tricks, you know. But then 517 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: you have folks like, um, what's the guy's name crossing over? 518 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: John John Edwards. I mean, I've I've witnessed situations where 519 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: I felt as though there was something a little more 520 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: uh intense than just cold reading techniques going on. I 521 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,800 Speaker 1: Who am I to say? You know that there isn't 522 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: uh the ability for someone to have a stronger sense 523 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: for these kinds of things. And then, you know, with 524 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: our other show that we do stuffing. I want you 525 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: to know we run into things like this all the time, 526 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:25,800 Speaker 1: and we always have to kind of hedge our bets 527 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: without coming down too hard and saying no, this is 528 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: all poppy cock versus you know. Yeah, there's things that 529 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 1: we don't fully understand. And I kind of sit somewhere 530 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 1: in the middle of those two camps. What what what do 531 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: you think, ben? So, it's profoundly arrogant and very very 532 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 1: human to imagine that we as a species, whereas individuals 533 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: understand the totality of reality, you know what I mean, 534 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: We're a species that burned people alive for saying the 535 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,359 Speaker 1: earth orbits the sun like not that long ago. When 536 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,319 Speaker 1: you look at time as a big picture, yeah, fingersnap 537 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: of humanity. One of the best analogies for it is 538 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: is the following. So our understanding of the world in 539 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: which we live, and indeed our understanding ourselves, is akin 540 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 1: to a guttering sputtering match in the universe, And the 541 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 1: universe is a dark room and it's so big that 542 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: we cannot see the corners. All we can see is uh, 543 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 1: the match and maybe part of our hands holding it. 544 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: So to assume that we know anything about the darkness 545 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,280 Speaker 1: beyond the little bit of light we have is again 546 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: just the word I keep coming back to is arrogant. However, 547 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: it's also true that our species will rip off each 548 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: other whatever the opportunity presents itself, you know what I mean, 549 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: Whether it's magical water that will make you live forever, 550 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: whether it's a belief system that is impossible to disprove, right, 551 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 1: or whether it's you know, a car that runs on 552 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:04,399 Speaker 1: positive thinking. There's there's no shortage of examples. That sounds nice. 553 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: Then it does sound nice, right, and just saying that, 554 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: would you know, get you some better mileage. But in 555 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,879 Speaker 1: this case, what we see is uh, the story of 556 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: one person's crusade, which was to a large degree effective. 557 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: And and again it sounds like you and I are 558 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: kind of on on the same page. There's there's more 559 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: to the workings of reality and the universe than humans 560 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: currently understand. And anyone who's listening to this podcast thousands 561 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 1: of years from now, we envy you. Hopefully, hopefully the 562 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,839 Speaker 1: house of cards called civilization is not collapsed, and you've 563 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: learned a lot about the world beyond the one in 564 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: which we currently live. And hey, you know, what the 565 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: weird trippy thing is. If any of this afterlife after 566 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: world stuff turns out to be true, then the people 567 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: listening to this from thousands of years in the future, 568 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 1: as linear times can, they don't have to hit our 569 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: social meats man, they can just call us up directly, 570 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 1: like invoc us electric word life. It means forever and 571 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 1: that's a mighty long time. But I'm here to tell 572 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 1: you there's something else the afterworld, a world of never 573 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 1: ending happiness. You can always see the sun day or night. 574 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,359 Speaker 1: So when you call up that shrink in Beverly Hills, 575 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 1: you know the one doctor, everything will be all right. 576 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 1: Instead of asking him how much of your time has left, 577 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,360 Speaker 1: ask him how much of your mind? Baby? Because in 578 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: this life things are much harder than in the after world. 579 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: In this life you're on your own, and if the 580 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,479 Speaker 1: elevator tries to bring you down, go crazy. I wanted 581 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 1: to jump in. Uh. The only other abuse of after 582 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 1: world that immediately jumped to mind for me, give me 583 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: a Leonard Cohen after world. So I ken's I eternally 584 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: That is Penny Royalty by Nirvana. Al Right, well, we 585 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 1: got some literature in there, we got some science we've 586 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: got some spirituality. We got one of our favorite troops 587 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 1: are ridiculous History. Uh, good old fashioned con artistry. I 588 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: think that makes this our episode. Thank you so much 589 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,320 Speaker 1: for tuning in everybody. By the way Makenburgh did inherit 590 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 1: Judini's crystal Ball, you don't need a crystal ball to 591 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: get in contact with us before our next episode. You 592 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: can find us on everybody's favorite technological impression of clair voyance, 593 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: the Internet, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Ridiculous History is all over it. 594 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 1: We highly recommend one of our favorite sites on the internet, 595 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 1: which is our Facebook community page, or Ridiculous Historians. But 596 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 1: we're not just a show. We're also individual people and 597 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: you can find us online as ourselves. It's sure. You 598 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: can find me exclusively on Instagram where I am at 599 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: how Now Noel Brown, and you can find me on 600 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,759 Speaker 1: Twitter where I am Ben bolland hs W. Or you 601 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: can find me on Instagram where I am named as 602 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,399 Speaker 1: I like to say in a burst of creativity at 603 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 1: Ben Boland spelled how it sounds huge. Thanks to super 604 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: producer Casey Pegram, Alex Williams, who composed our theme, Christopher 605 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: haciotas here in Spirit, Gabe Louisier Research Associate eve's Jeff Cote, 606 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:09,759 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland, a k a. The Quister Dr Vankman, both 607 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: the character played by Bill Murray and my cat shout 608 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: out to you. I can go to the Carpathian Vigo, 609 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: the Carpathia, what is it? The sorrow of Carpathia, the 610 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,759 Speaker 1: scourge of Moldolva. I think that's the one I got close. 611 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: That's a great speech. And of course, Yadush, lovely, lovely, Nash. 612 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from 613 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 614 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.