1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,399 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This is 2 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and we don't normally air a vault episode 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: on a Tuesday like this, and it wasn't originally the plan, 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:18,639 Speaker 1: but we had some scheduling issues come up with some 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: interviews that we were putting together here, so I'm going 6 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: to just roll out of vault episode here, but don't worry. 7 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: I'm putting some stuff together for Thursday, So come back 8 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: then and experience a new episode all of the show. 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:38,599 Speaker 1: So here's one from the vault. I hope you enjoy. 10 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 11 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 12 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 13 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: today we're bringing you an interview that Robert conducted with 14 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: a professor of psychology named Barbara Bletchley. Uh. Rob, I 15 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: was not here for this conversation. You recorded it while 16 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: I was out on vacation a while back. So to 17 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,919 Speaker 1: tell me about the talk, what is this? Well, Barbara 18 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: came in the show to discuss her new book, What 19 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: Are the Chances Why We Believe In Luck? This is 20 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: um publication from Columbia University Press, and it's currently available 21 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,559 Speaker 1: in hardback get it as an e book an audio book, 22 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: So anyway you consume your your books, it's an option. UM. 23 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: Barbara is a professor of psychology at Agnes Scott College, Indicator, Georgia, 24 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: UM and her scholarly and UH teaching interests include of 25 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: physiological psychology, neuroscience research, statistics, psychology of learning, sensation and perception. 26 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: Also the biology of depression and UH in factors both 27 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: environmental and biological influencing the development of the brain. UM 28 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: and of course the book in question here, which is 29 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: a delightful read I very much enjoyed. It's just all 30 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: about out about luck. Getting into UM various topics related 31 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: to luck that you might not even instantly realize are 32 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: are central to our understanding of it, such as randomness 33 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: and the difficulty in like even contemplating randomness from a 34 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: human perspective. Barbara also gets into the neuroscience of luck 35 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: as well as how it relates to various UH mythologies 36 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: and and so forth. Sounds great, let's jump right on in. Hi, Barbara, 37 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: can you introduce yourself to our listeners. Hi, my name 38 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: is Barbara Blushley. I'm a professor of psychology and neuroscience 39 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:42,119 Speaker 1: at Agnes Scott College, and I've been there for about, oh, 40 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: this is going to be embarrassing forty years now. Your 41 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: book provides such an engrossing look at luck and and 42 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: randomness and these various um concepts that are all kind 43 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: of interwoven into the topic. Uh So, in a way, 44 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: it's kind of difficult to decide where to start first. 45 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,119 Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to just ask you, well, what is luck, 46 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: because that is that's that entire answer is the entire 47 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: length of the book. But I thought I might start 48 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: by just asking how does luck seem to be connected 49 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 1: to the human unwillingness to accept randomness? Actually, that's a 50 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: very good question. I think luck is the word that 51 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: we assign to random and unpredictable events in the world. 52 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: We tend not to like things that are random and unpredictable. 53 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: They're very often interpreted as fearful or threatening. Randomness is 54 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: scary because it's unknowable, it's unpredictable. Um, it's unexpected. Uh 55 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: I was very fascinated to read a book by Nicholas Carlton, 56 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: who's a psychologist in Canada. He writes that fear of 57 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: the unknown, the fear of not having the information we 58 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: need in order to be able to answer a question, 59 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: maybe the most fundamental to basic fear that we have 60 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: and underlies every other fear that we learn. We are motivated, 61 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: seriously motivated to reduce that uncertainty, and we do that 62 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: in a number of different ways. We can We can 63 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: do it by being curious, by going out and trying 64 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: to find the answer to the question. We also do 65 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: it this is very human. We do it by labeling 66 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: that thing that we're afraid of. UM. The tendency to 67 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: label things that we don't understand, I think is another 68 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: fundamental human characteristic. It stems from our desire to control that. 69 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: Then if you can label it, then you have some 70 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: degree of control over it. Um. One of the more 71 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: interesting studies that I came across in writing the book 72 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: was a study done by H. Lieberman and the whole 73 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: slew of other people in two thousand and seven. They 74 00:04:55,920 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: were looking at their participants under standing emotions, and they 75 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 1: were doing this in an fMRI machine, So they're scanning 76 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: the brain to watch how it uh the processes the 77 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: information that's coming in. They showed their participants a series 78 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 1: of human faces expressing emotion about the emotions were negative 79 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: because that gets a really big response, and the other 80 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: were positive emotions. Or they show them just the shape, 81 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: and they asked them too, first, just observe the image, 82 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: don't do anything about it, don't label it, don't say anything. 83 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: And then they asked them to to label that image. 84 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: When they were just observing the human faces with emotional expressions, 85 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: it activated a part of the brain called the amygdala, 86 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: which is part of the emotion processing system in the brain. 87 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: When they labeled the emotion, the activity in the amygdala 88 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 1: went down. So it's almost as if being able to 89 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: apply a label to that thing reduced the anxiety literally 90 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: in the part of the brain that is processing that 91 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: am sational response, which I thought was just super interesting. 92 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: I did not expect that so loosely speaking, like something 93 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: unexpected happens. Uh, there's the the you know, the the unexplained, 94 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: the unexpected in life. Just by merely being able to 95 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: label it bad luck, you're kind of reducing the like 96 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: the emotional um impact of the incident. Yes, I think 97 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: that's how they would have interpreted it. They said that 98 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: putting your feelings into words helped regulate the negative emotions 99 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: that that particular thing unexpected or a negative emotional response 100 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,239 Speaker 1: from someone else. Humans are tremendously important to other humans. 101 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: We can spend a lot of our time watching human 102 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: faces to see what they're doing. So being able to 103 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: label that negative emotion reduced the anxiety that that negative 104 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: emotion provoked. Fascinating. Now, speaking of of applying language to 105 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: these things. In the book, you outline four different types 106 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: of luck. M can you describe these fours? Because four 107 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: types of luck I came across in a book by 108 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: Dr James Austin, who is a neurologist and an author. 109 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: In fact, he wrote one of my favorite books of 110 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: all time. Um, it's called Zen and the Brain. Had 111 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: nothing to do with luck, but just to mention it 112 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: because it's a really cool book. So he writes about 113 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: these four types of luck in his book, which is 114 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: Uh Chase, Chance and Creativity, The Lucky Art of Novelty. 115 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: He's really writing about how luck played a role in 116 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: his own experiments that he was doing in the lab, 117 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: and he details these four different kinds of luck. Each 118 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: type of luck builds on the type that came before, 119 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: so at the at the foundation of This is what 120 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: he called type one luck, which is what most of 121 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: us probably think about when we think about luck. It's 122 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: random chance. It's just an unexpected, random event that happens 123 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: to you. We don't see it coming, but there it is, 124 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: and we we wind up having to deal with it. 125 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:06,559 Speaker 1: And the example I used in the book for type 126 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: one luck is walking into the casino in Las Vegas 127 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: and betting everything you have on the outcome of one 128 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: game and walking out a winner. That's type one luck. 129 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: That's just random, unexpected against the odds. Look. Type two 130 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:28,239 Speaker 1: luck is a combination of randomness and what Austin called 131 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: movement um I think of it as persistence. Really, he 132 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: uses the example of Charles Kettering, who's an American inventor 133 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: who very famously said, but if you want to solve problems, 134 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 1: you have to be persistent. You have to keep moving, 135 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: you have to keep trying. Chances are you will stumble 136 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: on something when you least expected. I've never heard of 137 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: anyone stumbling on something sitting down. So Kettering was advocating 138 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,079 Speaker 1: to be luckier, Get up and move, get up and try. 139 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: And Type three luck is a combination then of randomness, persistence, 140 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: and preparation, and Austin uses the famous quote by Louis Pasteur. 141 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: Chance favors the prepared mind, so preparation helps you see 142 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: patterns in the events that happened to you that other 143 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: people who are less prepared might not see. And then 144 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:26,319 Speaker 1: type four luck combines randomness, persistence, preparation, and our own 145 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: unique personality, our own spin on what happens in the world. 146 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: And I used the story of Sarah Kesson's and Emily 147 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: Cole and their attempt to win the two thousand and 148 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 1: five wood Veil Transatlantic Rowing Race, which just blows my mind. 149 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: I just cannot wrap my head around voluntarily getting in 150 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: a rowboat and trying to row across the Atlantic Ocean. 151 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: Just not not in my wheelhouse. So I got the 152 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 1: chance to talk with Sarah via email. I think she 153 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: lives in New Zealand now. Um. She told me that 154 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: she accidentally came across a book, so there's random chance 155 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: while she was waiting for an airplane to fly home 156 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: across the Atlantic by the way, UH and read about 157 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,719 Speaker 1: the race and that was what got her interested in it. 158 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: She and her racing partner Emily Cole, had been on 159 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 1: the Purdue University women's skulling team, so they already were 160 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: familiar with and prepared for racing long distances, although nothing 161 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: like what they were about to attempt. Both thought that 162 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: this race sounded like a challenge instead of something you 163 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: would avoid at all costs uh, and it was right 164 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: up their alley, and both of them prepared like mad, 165 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: persisting despite the fact that Indiana lacks an ocean upon 166 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: which they could practice, so they were practicing on rivers 167 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: and ponds and and things like that, so they they 168 00:10:55,360 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: embodied kind of all four aspects of luck. They suffered, uh, 169 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: capsize in the race, as did many people, because apparently 170 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: this was just an ill fated race, but they survived 171 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: and tried it again. They entered again. If you can't 172 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: believe it after that, I don't think I would go 173 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: anywhere near a rowboat, but they did. I love the 174 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: various examples like this that you share in the book, 175 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 1: so you know, to illustrate these different views and understandings 176 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 1: of luck. Um. One that was particularly I don't know, alarming, 177 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: I guess you could say, if if one's not familiar 178 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: with the story, was that of Joan Ginther. Can you 179 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: tell us about Joan Ginther? And what her story reveals 180 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: about luck. I can't. One of the things I had 181 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: the most fun with actually in writing the book was 182 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: finding these stories of lucky people. And Joan ginther story 183 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: was one of the most fun for me because I 184 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: teach statistics, so I kind of felt the kindred bond 185 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:57,239 Speaker 1: with Dr Ginther. She is a retired professor of mathematics 186 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: who won the lottery four times UM, winning a total 187 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: of I think twenty million dollars altogether UM. Her experience 188 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: is a wonderful example of a streak in a random event. 189 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: Winning the lottery is random. It's really, really, really hard 190 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: to predict whether you're going to or not, whether or 191 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: not the card that you've got to scratch off lottery 192 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: card that you've got is going to be a winner 193 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: or not. UM. So her experience winning the lottery four 194 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: times against all the odds and repeatedly was really remarkable. 195 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: She kind of embodies all four types of luck. She 196 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: was definitely prepared to understand the chances of winning the lottery. 197 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: She's a math professor, so she probably knew. She was 198 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: persistent in that she kept trying even though she knew 199 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 1: what the odds were. She also benefited from the fact 200 00:12:55,320 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: that random events are not necessarily patterned. Less they do 201 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: happen in streaks with apparent patterns. If you think about 202 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: the stars in the night sky, you can see patterns 203 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: in the placement of those stars. In fact, those patterns 204 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: are so consistent that we give them names. We've we've 205 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: labeled the patterns that we see in the night sky. 206 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: So when something happens like this, when somebody wins the lottery, 207 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: for example, four times in a row, we tend to think, well, 208 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: that's not that's not fair. It's not how the universe works. 209 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: It creates uncertainty, and that uncertainty is unpleasant. So we 210 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: start looking for a pattern predictability in that event. If 211 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: we can find a pattern, we can then understand that 212 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: event better. And sometimes that pattern we just say that's luck. 213 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: That's an example of luck. Some people insisted, however, that 214 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: it couldn't be luck because it was so unexpected, and 215 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: that she must have cheated in order to win. So 216 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: there there's a whole bunch of reporters who got attracted 217 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: to this story and went to try to see could 218 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: they find out how she cheated the system. For the 219 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: life of me, I can't figure out how she would 220 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: have cheated unless she had a level of control over 221 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: the creation and distribution of scratch off lottery cards. That 222 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: is impossible, and that, as far as I can tell, 223 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: she did not have. UM, I just can't see how 224 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: she cheated. I think she just was the beneficiary of 225 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: a streak in luck. And more power to you, Joan. 226 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: So I'm not going to run. I'm not moved to 227 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: run out and play the lottery myself because because I 228 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: know what the odds are as well. But there you go. 229 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: Thank Now. One question I came to mind as I 230 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: was I was reading the book. You know, is it 231 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: is luck just something? Is it just seemed like a 232 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: universal concept for all human cultures? Is it just something 233 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: that that emerges alongside language? Is it? Did you run 234 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: anything across anything that even resembled a culture without a 235 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: tradition of luck? I did not, um. And this was 236 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: another thing that I found fascinating. I suppose it's common 237 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: to all human cultures in that all human cultures are 238 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: created by humans, so we all share uh a tendency 239 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: in our cognition, in the way that we leave the world. UM. 240 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: I saw an interview with Richard Wiseman, who wrote a 241 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: book about luck as well. He said that as far 242 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: as he could tell that there it is common to 243 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: all humans all over the world. Two want to have 244 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: control over the unexpected and that often becomes a tradition 245 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: of luck and luckiness or lucky gods or lucky shoes 246 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: or lucky whatever in the world. So, if you ask 247 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: a cognitive science researcher, these are folks who study how 248 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: humans think, what they think about this. Is this a 249 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: universal characteristic of the way humans think? They probably would 250 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: tell you yes, in that all humans have the tendency 251 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: to see patterns in random events, and it's related to 252 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: another tendency in the way that we think, which is 253 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: to look for an agent for whatever caused an event 254 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: to happen. Sometimes you can easily identify the agent. If 255 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: you do something and I see you do it, you 256 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: are the agent. It's really easy for me to tell. 257 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: Sometimes you can't identify the agent, and that makes us nervous. 258 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: So searching for and needing an agent for any event 259 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: that happens is a pattern. It's a survival mechanism for 260 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: us humans. It goes hand in hand with our tendency 261 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: to interpret all patterns as having meaning and discounting randomness 262 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: because we can't see what cause did so we tend 263 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: to just say, well, that didn't happen there there must 264 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: be something causing this. If that event that happened is 265 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: beyond the capacity of humans to create, we start looking 266 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: for invisible superhuman agents. We refer to these agents very 267 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: often as gods and goddesses. They are divine, They have 268 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: control over things we don't have control over. They must 269 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: be the agent of whatever happened, and maybe if you 270 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: ask them, really, really nicely, they'll help you experience good 271 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: luck as well. I was a bit surprised at how 272 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: consistently we humans have insisted on and institutionalized the idea 273 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: of luck um as a force in the universe, as 274 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 1: something that makes things happen. I'm going to go out 275 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 1: on a on a limb here, uh, something that might 276 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 1: get me into trouble. I am not a cultural anthropologist. 277 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: I'm interested in this, but I'm not an expert by 278 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 1: any means. But what struck me was that most cultures 279 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: have an explanation of luck and how it influences us, 280 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: and most of these explanations involved the divine in some 281 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: way shape or form that seems to be the common 282 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: underlying factor. Humans like there to be an agent in charge, 283 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: and very often that agent is a god. Now there's 284 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: a whole section of the book where you you look 285 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 1: to two different cultures and you go back in history 286 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: and look at different ideas. I was. I was a 287 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: little surprised when prehistoric cave paintings came up. Can you 288 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: describe how prehistoric cave paintings may relate to luck after say, 289 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: going to see the cave paintings at lasco Um or elsewhere, 290 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: not just photographs of them. He's on my personal bucket list. 291 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,400 Speaker 1: I would love to do that. I'm told that the 292 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,199 Speaker 1: photographs of them just don't do them justice. There's an 293 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 1: entire group of researchers who study the paintings that humans 294 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,719 Speaker 1: have left on the walls of the caves they lived in. Um. 295 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 1: They're trying to understand the apparently fundamental human need to 296 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: paint on the walls. If you're a parent and you 297 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 1: have children that paint on the walls, it may just 298 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: be wired into us. I don't know. There are a 299 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: number of explanations as to why we do this. I 300 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: personally liked the Neanderthal adolescent idea that maybe they're tagging 301 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 1: the caves. Some researchers think that they were simply recording 302 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: the hallucinations that they had, because there are some common 303 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: patterns in the hallucinations visual hallucinations that human beings have. 304 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: They're called a toptic images. They are created by the 305 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: machinery of the eye itself. So that's why they're so common, 306 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: and that's why all humans, if you're going to experience them, 307 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: probably experienced the same ones. Have you ever seen a 308 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:47,360 Speaker 1: floating um your visual field, something that appears like it's 309 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 1: floating across that's probably debris in the eyeball itself. Um, 310 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: So that's an example of one of these uh a 311 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: toptic images. The other explanation had to do with our 312 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: answer ster's pleading to the universe for good luck. It 313 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: might be related. I've often wondered too, our modern urge 314 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,199 Speaker 1: to display the head of something we've killed on the 315 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 1: living room all. So, maybe they were painting the results 316 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: of the last hunt uh and hoping that that would 317 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: be rewarded by a successful hunt the next time they 318 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: have found it. A number of these paintings seemed to 319 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 1: be done over and over and over again. In the 320 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: same spot, so there was some aspect of that spot 321 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: in the cave that was lucky. They had really good 322 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: luck with the hunt after they painted on that spot, 323 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: so they went back the next time and painted again. 324 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 1: It could just be bragging about what you killed the 325 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: last time, but it could also be a ritual attempt 326 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 1: to ask the random universe for success the next time 327 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: you go out with your spear and try to bring 328 00:20:55,240 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: them a wily mammoth seems difficult, Okay, that's fascinating. Um. 329 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: Now in UH in this section where you you deal 330 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: with different cultural traditions, and I must say, you get 331 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: into examples from say, you know, Greek and Roman culture 332 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: and and very various other examples. So I highly recommend 333 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: folks pick up the book and UH and read it. 334 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: But I wanted to ask about one in particular. You 335 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: outline three models of luck and Chinese traditions. There's I 336 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: believe min Yungu, which is one's own personal destiny on 337 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: thin faithful coincidence, and bow ying, a cosmic accounting of 338 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: one's life. And you discuss how these are, you know, 339 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: not not stand alone but interwoven. And this just got 340 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: me thinking, do do you think this is relatable to 341 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: sort of modern Western views um on luck that you 342 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: know that we may have several different or perhaps even 343 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 1: contradictory views of how luck might work in our lives. Interesting, 344 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 1: h I do think that we are often tradictory and 345 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: what we think in what we think about a lot 346 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: of things, not just luck. I think we're a contrary species. 347 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: Just basically, since the book came out, I can have 348 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: been asked do I believe in luck? More times than 349 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: I can count? Which is completely expected. I wrote a 350 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: book about luck, so yeah, I guess that means people 351 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: are reading it. Uh. I'm not sure that the answer 352 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: is as binary as the question is. If you ask 353 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 1: me do I believe in luck? I would say yes 354 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: and no, which is a really wishy washy answer. I realized. 355 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: Most of the time, I don't believe in luck. I 356 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: believe in hard work, persistence, in preparation. But if I 357 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: hit the lottery tomorrow, I'm going to say something along 358 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: the lines of wow, that was really lucky. I think 359 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: lots of people feel that way. They share that view 360 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: when when I can see what I did to create 361 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: an outcome, when I can see how I've influenced that outcome. 362 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: When I have control, and I know I have control, 363 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: I don't need luck. I don't need it as an 364 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: explanation for what happened. But when I don't have control, 365 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: then I need luck. And then I believe I'm actually 366 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: somewhat embarrassed to admit that I own a pair of 367 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: lucky shoes. They became lucky when they got paired randomly 368 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: with success. I wore them to a job interview and 369 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: I got the I got the job. Um, I do 370 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: not think it was the shoes that got me the job. 371 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: That would be creepy and weird. I think it was 372 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: my preparation, my what I brought to the opportunity, that 373 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 1: sort of thing. But those shoes are still lucky for me, 374 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: and I still happen. Yeah, it's it's interesting to think of, 375 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: like I was. You bring up you know, various you know, 376 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: lucky items and charms and amulets and all, and so 377 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: it got me got made for looking around my own 378 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: house and recognize them some things that are I guess, 379 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: you know, technically lucky charms of some you know, or 380 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 1: lucky mementos. They're supposed to be items of luck. Uh. 381 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: And then I'll tend to think of them, not as 382 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 1: as some sort of an amulet or anything. I'll think 383 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: of like a reminder of something good. But then again, 384 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: it's just kind of linguistically dancing around, like the idea 385 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: of it being a lucky item. Like you know, we're 386 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: just kind of arguing about terminology at this point. I 387 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: think it comes down to semantics after a while. Lots 388 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: and lots of people carry carry lucky charms. Um, I 389 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 1: don't see anything particularly wrong with it. I like my 390 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: lucky shoes. They're very nice shoes, so I'm not going 391 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: to worry about it too much. Is it contradictory, Probably, 392 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: but I'm okay with them now. Another question that came 393 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 1: to mind. Do you see a link between divination practices 394 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: and the need to create randomness? I think I've seen 395 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: this discuss before, in terms of ancient bone casting, rich wolves, 396 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: or the or the eaching means of stepping outside of 397 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: human andy's inherent inability to grasp or produce randomness. I 398 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: actually had not heard that. I was I was intrigued 399 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 1: when you said that. I think human beings are bad 400 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 1: at creating randomness. If you ask people to create a 401 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: random display, most of the time we can't do it um. 402 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: This is actually a question that philosophers and mathematicians argue 403 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: about um, and I'm perfectly willing to let them have added. 404 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: I don't have a good answer for that, But I 405 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: think we're bad at generating or creating randomness because we 406 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: seem to be wired to see patterns and to interpret 407 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: them as meaningful. So if you ask me to abandon 408 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: that and to create a random eventum or series of events, 409 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: it's usually not random. There's usually a pattern in it, 410 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: and that's because of the way that the brain is 411 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 1: signed to interpret events in the world. So I think 412 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: what you're saying is that you've come across evidence that 413 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: in an attempt to introduce randomness, people have used casting 414 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 1: bones or or the each ing or something like that 415 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,679 Speaker 1: to create random because we're so bad at it. Is 416 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 1: that what you were that is? I think that's basically 417 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 1: the the ideas i've I've read it. I want to say, 418 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 1: maybe it was Julian Jaynes who wrote about it. At 419 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: some point, I'll have to go look that up. Now. 420 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 1: Outside of any kind of scholarly attempts to understand randomness, 421 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 1: I enjoy board games and role playing games such as 422 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons, which to varying degrees, uses tables and 423 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,199 Speaker 1: dice to generate randomness that is useful in sort of 424 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,439 Speaker 1: generating an adventure or some sort of a situation for 425 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: players to engage in. UM. And some systems even have 426 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: like a luckman panic, they'll be like a luck like 427 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: some sort of numerical rating for real luck that somehow 428 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: factored into everything. UM. I don't imagine any of this 429 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,640 Speaker 1: reveals anything about our perceptions of luck, though, does it? 430 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I think I think we're we're fascinated 431 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 1: by random events. UM. They can be scary, but they're interesting. 432 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: They will grab your attention. UM. How else can you 433 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: explain horror movies and how popular they are. I'm not 434 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: really familiar with games that I don't play Dungeons and Dragons, 435 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: so I don't really know the example you're using. But 436 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: I think that since games that we play reflect the 437 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: lives that we live, and many people think of luck 438 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,959 Speaker 1: as an element in the universe that cannon does affect us, 439 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: that having some luck driven aspect of the game would 440 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: be completely human. I just didn't realize it was built 441 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: into the game. I did not know that thank thank you, 442 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: thank you. In your book, you write that quote luckiness 443 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: could be described as a creature of our imagination if 444 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: we could imagine something worse happening, and if that's something 445 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,360 Speaker 1: worse is close at hand, it might have happened recently. 446 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: We had a choice of actions that lead to the 447 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: possible something worse, or we deserve that outcome, we say 448 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: we were lucky. It all seems to hinge on being 449 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: able to imagine something worse. I found that that that 450 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,400 Speaker 1: really interesting as well. And and this makes complete sense, 451 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 1: but it also makes me wonder do you think people 452 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: who were inclined to engage in catastrophic thinking uh and 453 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: worst case scenarios, are they more inclined to assume luck 454 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: not probability played a role in say, um, you know, 455 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: not being bitten by a shark on a recent vacation. 456 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: I like that example. It makes me think. I had 457 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: a I had a student in my statistics class last week, 458 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, who asked me if something 459 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: that I said in class was true to they're listening, 460 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: that's that's good. I had been talking about the Monte 461 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: Carlo fallacy in statistics class and explaining why it's a fallacy. 462 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: The Monte Carlo fallacy is another example of how we 463 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: usually misinterpret probability. It's the belief that an event will be, 464 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: for example, less likely to happen if it follows a 465 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: series of similar events, or that a past event can 466 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: change the probability of a future one. It's named after 467 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: a famous streak in random events that happened at the 468 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: casino at Monte Carlo. Um The player on the roulette 469 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: wheel betting black one time after time after time, the 470 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: little marble kept landing on black, and as it did that, 471 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: the other players at the table started to bet more 472 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: and more heavily that the next spin would be. Read 473 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: as if the probability of the marble landing on black 474 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: was decre see as the streak went on and the 475 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: probability that it would land on red was increasing. We're 476 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,959 Speaker 1: talking about independent events here. Each spin of the wheel 477 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: is independent of every other spin of the wheel, unless 478 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: the wheel is rigged, in which case you shouldn't be 479 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: playing there. Um. So what happened on the last spin 480 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: has no effect at all on what happens on the 481 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: next spin. It's that it will land on black every 482 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: single spin unless the universe is keeping score. Uh. And besides, 483 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: there's been too many landing on black events, so the 484 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: next one has to be read. Um, and I don't 485 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: think it is than what happened the last time has 486 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: no effect on what happens the next time. My student 487 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: looked shocked by this, so I asked her why, and 488 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: she said that she had always believed, like the players 489 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: at the table had believed that, to use your example 490 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: of being bitten by a shark, UM, that the probability 491 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 1: of being bitten by a shark if she goes to 492 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: the ocean would go up as the number of days 493 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: that no one had been bitten by a shark also increased. 494 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: Don't work that way, um, And we had an interesting 495 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: discussion about how it does not work that way. UM. 496 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: She came to class the next time kind of reconciled 497 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: to this. So, yeah, my work here is done. So UM, 498 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: I think part of the reason we do this, and 499 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: I do it myself, I have done it myself, is 500 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: that we're wired to think that the worst thing can happen, 501 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: and there's a survival component to that. If you prepare 502 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: yourself for the worst thing that can possibly happen, then 503 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: then you're ready for that should it happen, and if 504 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: it doesn't happen, you're still okay because you were prepared. 505 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: So the problem is that overestimating the probability of a 506 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: negative event produces anxiety, and anxiety can really change how 507 00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: you process what happens next. So I think I may 508 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: have wandered down the garden path here, but I do 509 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:11,719 Speaker 1: think that, uh, we do tend to think catastrophically uh, 510 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: in order to prepare for catastrophe. Uh, And that that 511 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: is related to how lucky or unlucky we feel ourselves 512 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: to be believe ourselves to be. So, speaking of of anxiety, 513 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 1: how does stress and superstition, superstition about luck and bad luck, 514 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: how do these seem to be linked together? Well, stress 515 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: and anxiety can reinforce catastrophic thinking. Anxiety tends to narrow 516 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: what psychologists call the spotlight of attention. If you're anxious, 517 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: that spotlight is really really narrow. You're focused on just 518 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 1: that one little thing and you're missing you're actually not 519 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: seeing or hearing the other things that are happening. If 520 00:32:54,880 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: you're relaxed and happy, that spotlight is wide and you're 521 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: taking in more information. So if you get stressed out, 522 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: in anxious and you're focused on that catastrophic thing and 523 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: only that catastrophic thing. It can make it more and 524 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: more difficult to cope, and it can make you more 525 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: likely to see the negative and less likely to see 526 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: the positive. Superstitions developed as a means of deflecting usually 527 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: something negative or fearful, UH, to keep that from happening. 528 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: There was just very interesting study done on the superstition 529 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: of knocking on wood um, which developed by out of 530 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: the Celtic culture. The belief that trees in the forest 531 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: were inhabited by spirits that could mess with you if 532 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 1: they felt like it. Um, especially if you came upon 533 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: them unexpectedly, produced this this myth or the superstition of 534 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,040 Speaker 1: knocking on wood. So you walked by the tree and 535 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: knock on it to let them know that you're here, 536 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: so that they they'll leave you alone. They won't be 537 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:10,240 Speaker 1: surprised by your sudden appearance. It keeps bad luck away 538 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: from us. So in this study they asked people to 539 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: describe their level of stress. How stressed are you? And 540 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: then they gave them a difficult task to do, and 541 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: they asked them as they were doing it, how strong 542 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,760 Speaker 1: is the urge to knock on wood, for example. And 543 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: what they found was that the more stressed they were, 544 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: the more they reported the urge to knock on wood. 545 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,439 Speaker 1: Not not very many of them did it, because they're 546 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: in a psychology experiment and the psychologist is watching them. 547 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: They don't want to look superstitious. But they did report 548 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: that they felt the urge more strongly when they were 549 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:52,760 Speaker 1: stressed out. So carrying lucky charms produces a similar effect. 550 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: Having a lucky ritual, or a lucky pen, or even 551 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: lucky shoes can make us feel more confident in the 552 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: face of the unknown and the unpredictable. Having that with 553 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: you reduces anxiety, and when you're less anxious, you perform better. 554 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: So you know, success breeds success. So I have to 555 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: admit that previously I did not know what the origin 556 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: of knocking on wood was. As a sort of good 557 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: luck practice. It's something that I I would catch myself 558 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: doing often if i'm, you know, engaging in a conversation 559 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 1: with somebody, like I don't think I would ever catch 560 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: myself doing it like by myself, but uh, you know, 561 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: someone would say something they knock on wood, I'd pick 562 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: up on it, and I guess the barrier to entry 563 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: is very low in it. You just have to have 564 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 1: something wooden around to knock on my desk knock. Now, 565 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,319 Speaker 1: traditions of luck like like this and others that they 566 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: can be fun and they're they're often a part of 567 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: one's culture. But what do you think it's the best 568 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: way to explain these traditions to younger people, to children. 569 00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: I often wonder about this with my own son, where 570 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: I might explain a tradition or even introduce him to one, 571 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: but then I feel like I have to really couch 572 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: it all in, sort of the fiction or the superstition 573 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: of the thing, so that he doesn't take it too seriously. Um, 574 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: But then I am I taking too much of the 575 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: magic out of it. I don't know what do you 576 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 1: think is the right approach? Oh, well, I will tell 577 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,760 Speaker 1: you right off the bat. But I don't have children, 578 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 1: so I've never been faced with this. Probably not the 579 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 1: person to ask. I do think that you probably. I 580 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 1: don't think you would destroy the magic if you explained 581 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: it to a child. I think children are remarkably willing 582 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 1: to believe in magic. I mean, who but a child 583 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 1: would think that tying a red towel around their shoulders 584 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:47,760 Speaker 1: would give them the power of flight. That's that's magic. Um, 585 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: So I don't think that you're going to, by being realistic, 586 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: explain explain away the magic. I think the magic is 587 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: there regardless. There's plenty of adult people who see magic 588 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,839 Speaker 1: has sickly possible as well. I don't really have any 589 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: good advice for how to how to explain this to 590 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 1: your child because I don't have any. I have three 591 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: step children, but they were pretty much beyond that stage 592 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: by the time I came around. So yeah, I guess 593 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,399 Speaker 1: I'll just have to have to keep wrestling with it here. Yeah, 594 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: basically you mentioned the red cape is actually a similar 595 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: situation where my son knows that red is often considered 596 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,879 Speaker 1: a you know, a good luck color, and so they'll 597 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,319 Speaker 1: be we'll be playing a game or something and he'll say, 598 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 1: oh wait, let me go get a red shirt on 599 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: for this part, you know, to get really geared up. Yeah, 600 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 1: And so I, you know, when he does that, I 601 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 1: don't want to say no, don't do that, you know, 602 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,320 Speaker 1: don't engage in superstition, but I also want to explain 603 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 1: to him what, you know, this is not actually going 604 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 1: to have an impact on what happens. But yeah, but 605 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: then it's keep explaining, Yeah, just keep explaining. Okay. Now, 606 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,399 Speaker 1: another question, this is something you get into in the book. 607 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: Are people who believe in luck generally happier? Well, that's 608 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: an easy one, yes. Um. Psychology used to think of 609 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 1: luck as being a sign that you were focused in 610 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 1: the wrong direction, that there was a sign of not 611 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 1: processing things appropriately. But lots of studies more recently have 612 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,800 Speaker 1: shown that people who believe themselves to be lucky people 613 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: are more hopeful, they're happier, they perform better. It even 614 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: affects something called executive function, which is the function of 615 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,320 Speaker 1: the frontal lobe, how you pay attention to the world, 616 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 1: how you um. There are several aspects to executive function. 617 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: One is paying attention, uh, and all of those aspects 618 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,359 Speaker 1: can be affected by belief in luck, because I think 619 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 1: because you're happier, you're just a happier person, and that 620 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:56,839 Speaker 1: change is how you work, how you function. Um. There's 621 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: a study that showed in two thousand and nine that 622 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: less happy people, people who were unhappy had a stronger 623 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 1: belief in external luck, that it was out there, not 624 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,400 Speaker 1: them that was lucky, but that it was a force 625 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,720 Speaker 1: out there in the universe that dictated your fate, whether 626 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 1: it was good or bad. They're blaming luck for what 627 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 1: happens to them, and that tends to make you feel 628 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 1: as though you don't have personal agency, that what you 629 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: do isn't going to have an effect. Um diminishes their 630 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:38,839 Speaker 1: sense of purpose and their overall happiness. So seeing luck 631 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:43,880 Speaker 1: as external to you might be associated with being more unhappy, 632 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: but seeing luck as personal, as something that's an aspect 633 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: of you, tends to be associated with people being happier. Uh. 634 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 1: It's a I suppose a variant of optimism, and optimism 635 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: always makes a feel better. Uh. It breeds, it breeds hope, 636 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: it breeds self acceptance. Uh, connection with other people and 637 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:14,840 Speaker 1: with positive experiences. So people who see themselves as lucky 638 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 1: may be more willing to try something new, to be 639 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,320 Speaker 1: inspired to go out and try to be a helper 640 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 1: out in the world two help other people because they 641 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: feel that life has been kind to them and so 642 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:35,399 Speaker 1: they can then extend that to the rest of us. So, yeah, 643 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: people who see themselves as lucky are generally speaking happier. 644 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: So in that case, can we learn to be lucky? 645 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 1: Can we make that change in our in our lives. Yeah. 646 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: The same psychologist in the UK that I was talking about, 647 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:54,240 Speaker 1: Richard Wiseman, has been studying luck and UH other factors 648 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,720 Speaker 1: that are related to it for the last twenty years. 649 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:58,279 Speaker 1: He used to run I don't know if he's still 650 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: running it or not, but he used to run a 651 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,280 Speaker 1: luck school where he would teach you how to be lucky. 652 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's still operating or not. He 653 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 1: had details in his book. He has a book out 654 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 1: called The lux Actorum, and he details in that book 655 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 1: several ways several things you can do to try to 656 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 1: improve your your feeling of personal luckiness. Try to be 657 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:24,799 Speaker 1: more open to new experiences, be more social, make more 658 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: connections with other human beings. Pay attention to your intuition, 659 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 1: your gut feeling about something UH. Expect good fortune as 660 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: opposed to expecting disaster UH, and develop your resiliency, your 661 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:46,799 Speaker 1: ability to come back even from a disaster, come back 662 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:51,759 Speaker 1: from that. Still looking for the positive in life. I 663 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 1: think the most practical bit of advice that he had 664 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,840 Speaker 1: was to begin a gratitude diary to track the positive 665 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 1: in your life. So every day you would write down 666 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,800 Speaker 1: a positive thing that happened to you. It makes you 667 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 1: focus on the positive more. It tends to make us happier. Uh, 668 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 1: that widens our attentional spotlight. That makes us more likely 669 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:20,359 Speaker 1: to notice random things that come up, et cetera. So, 670 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,440 Speaker 1: as I said, success bread success, So if you can 671 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 1: do that, that might be the first step in learning 672 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 1: how to be a luckier person. Excellent. Well, there's some 673 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,239 Speaker 1: some some words of wisdom there. Remind everybody that the 674 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: book again is what are the Chances why we Believe 675 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,279 Speaker 1: in Luck? And yeah, we we We didn't even get 676 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,080 Speaker 1: into I think half of the material you discussed in there. 677 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 1: There's there's stuff in there about about curses, the curse 678 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 1: of the Mummy. Um, it's certainly a lot of neuroscientific 679 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,640 Speaker 1: information that's worth reading as well. So I encourage everyone 680 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,399 Speaker 1: to go out there and pick it up. Thank you, 681 00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,279 Speaker 1: Thanks for taking time out of your day to chat 682 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:03,160 Speaker 1: with me, Barbara. Thank you, this was fun all right. Well, 683 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 1: thanks once more to Barbera for taking time out of 684 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 1: her day to chat with me about the book. The 685 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 1: book again is what are the Chances Why we Believe 686 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,280 Speaker 1: in Luck? Currently available and I think pretty much any 687 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 1: format you might be desiring, and that is out from 688 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,840 Speaker 1: Columbia University Press. In the meantime, if you would like 689 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,319 Speaker 1: to check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 690 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:23,879 Speaker 1: you'll find us in the Stuff to Blow your Mind 691 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,880 Speaker 1: podcast feed. We have four episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, 692 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 1: Artifact on Wednesday, listener Mail on Monday, and on Friday's 693 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,000 Speaker 1: we do a little uh, a little bit of content 694 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 1: called Weird House Cinema. That's our time to set aside 695 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 1: most of the serious concerns and just discuss a weird film, 696 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,520 Speaker 1: huge things. As always to our wonderful audio producer Seth 697 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 1: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch 698 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,439 Speaker 1: with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 699 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,920 Speaker 1: to suggest a topic for the future, just to say hi, 700 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 701 00:43:53,120 --> 00:44:02,960 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 702 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,719 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my 703 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,680 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 704 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:14,439 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.