WEBVTT - Ep. 184: Managing Bambi 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:13.320 This is me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:18.319 bug bitten in my case, underwear listening Hunt podcast, you 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:22.560 can't predict anything presented by on X. Hunt creators are 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:26.160 the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:29.440 Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store, nor 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:36.120 where you stand with on X. Hey everyone, quick announcement 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:39.040 before we get started. So this is a special addition 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:42.720 to part podcast. Get your regular part which happens next, 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:45.080 and then we got an extra special part which happens 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:47.080 after that, so make sure you stay tuned. An extra 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:51.240 special part has to do with the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:55.680 Partnership working in conjunction with on X, and together they 0:00:55.760 --> 0:01:00.280 just released a new report called Inaccessible State Lands in 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:03.640 the West, The extent of the landlocked problem and the 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:05.959 tools to fix it. Now, if you remember if you 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:08.080 listen to the show, and you obviously do, because here 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:11.560 we are. We did a show with t RCP and 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:14.800 on X a little over a year ago in which 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:20.080 we outlined the findings of their Federal land Landlocked Report, 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:23.399 meaning all kinds of land you and I could be 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:27.760 hunting and fishing and covorting around on but we can't 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:30.400 because there's no legal access to it. It's just like 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:33.760 chunks of public land sitting there, but you can't legally 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:36.039 get on it because it's surrounded by private land. And 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:37.800 so they looked at that and how to take care 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:40.000 of that, and they followed that up now with the 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:43.240 State Land Report, which has some pretty like staggering findings 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:47.680 in it with very real implications for anyone that likes 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:51.640 to spend time outdoors. So stay tuned and thanks to 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:54.760 t R C P and on next for pulling us together, 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:57.040 and stay tuned to hear all about it after this 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:07.440 here show. Okay, a couple quick things here. First, Mark Kenyan, 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:12.640 here's one for you. Have you ever heard, you know, 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:20.800 like words for big stuff like huge or toad, jumbo, mondoga. 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:23.720 Have you ever heard a guy wrote in one and 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:27.080 about where he's from in southern Ohio a big buck? 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:28.600 I don't know. I think this might just be in 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:33.360 his social circle. The big buck is a slender. You know, 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:38.640 it's been g being pronounced the same as in giant. Yeah, 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:42.240 I have heard of that slender. Now how I heard 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:45.160 of it is there was a video production team out 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:50.080 of Ohio. This substantiate it, and I'm pretty sure they 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:53.680 were called slender hollow. And I just remember this because 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:57.360 when I was in early college, they were they they 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:02.080 specialized in big bucks from hollows. While I watched this, 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:04.799 you could get the TV show online. I watched it 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:08.000 in college. It was called again slender. I think it 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:09.880 was slender hollo if I remember so? Did that? Is 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:12.799 that why people started calling him slenders? No? No, no, 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:14.640 I've never heard it used in that way, but that 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:16.639 would make me think that could be where it came from, 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:19.560 given their birth from Ohio. You don't even know about this. 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:22.519 I never heard of a slender. Have we talked about that. 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:24.640 I don't know if people in Ohio I should use 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:28.040 the word hollow. I feel like it's cultural appropriation. No. 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:33.840 I think if they say hollo, it's fine. Yeah, a hollow, 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:39.000 that's fine. UM. I had a guy from his Missouri 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.640 once I had dropped him off somewhere where I was 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:44.280 guying him elk hunting, and I came back to him 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:47.040 and he was telling me about how the bolt was 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:52.800 hollering down there over in the holler. Have you guys 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:56.280 heard this one dude rode in that. Um, he's saying 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:02.560 he's saying, if you want tender backstrap, you hang the 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:08.120 deer's carcass by the pelvic bone. Do you hear this? 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:13.040 There's no strain. I have not heard that. I have 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:14.680 a hard time buying hank. You're not in your head. 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:17.440 I've heard this. But they put even a professional butcher 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.279 will put a hook in the cavity and hanging like 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:22.400 that because you don't want You want to stay by 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:25.120 that microphone. Sorry about that? You want? You want? Then 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:29.200 you want the hind quarters ninety degrees angle from the 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:31.840 hanging carcass upside down. Yeah, when when you hang him 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:35.120 under tension, the rigor mortis does more damage to the meat. 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:38.120 I've heard it. I think you just made that up. 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:42.400 You heard it by having executed on it. No, No, 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:45.279 I still hang my dear and I don't know him hanging. 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:47.120 I don't have a walk in cooler or anything like that. 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:50.359 But you have heard this. And if you go to 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:53.680 like a processor, I've noticed they hanged the ear and 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:57.480 the cows that way. Do you um doing? You guys 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:02.800 electrocute your dear right after you shoot him? Electric cute? Yeah? 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:05.680 Not once? Never heard of? Did you ever hear there's 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:07.920 this company, and I never got around to trying it. Man, 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.600 I wanted to tender It's called tender buck because you know, 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:13.359 you ever been to you ever watched them slaughter cattle 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.840 and slaughterhouse. How they hit him with that captive bolt 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:20.160 then they hang them up. I think they cut their 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:26.680 jugglar and Na's app him with electricity. Uh and it 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:29.080 does a number of things. But man, when I hit 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:32.400 him with that, they just relax. So this guy made 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:36.320 this thing and he was marking it to hunters. You 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:39.520 run it off a car battery, but apparently you're supposed 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:41.560 to like run over there, so damn, it's gonna be 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:44.960 pretty quick over there, Like so damn quick that you 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:49.240 there's there's like a there's a time limit. But yeah, 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:51.719 I mean like when they do with cattle, it's within seconds. 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:53.200 I mean, and you have to have a car battery 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:56.760 with you. I've heard that guys like I've heard that 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:59.440 like commercial shooters like down in Texas, that shooting on 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:03.040 the go out and you know, shooting non natives that 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:05.720 that going to the meat market that they did they 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:07.760 use I don't know if they use that product, but 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:12.280 they're out there shocking them. So what's the advantage. We're 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:14.560 trying to get a meat scientist. There's this meat scientists 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:18.000 I want to get on who's at Purdue University. And 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:21.320 because I could tell you why, I think what it 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.240 has to do with like how the animal goes through 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:26.480 has to do with how the animal goes through rigor 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:31.800 mortis mhm um, and there's some other complicating factors there. 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:33.360 But I don't want to do it because I want 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:35.599 to have a guy come in who really really knows. 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:39.440 So for the hanging thing I did, uh, it was 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.200 a professional butcher who who didn't gave him presentation. I 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:48.280 was at a professional butcher you know. Um another one, Mark, 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:50.840 we'll introduce everybody in a second. Here, Mark, what's the 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:54.320 name of your trailer? Camp with trailer? Oh? I mean 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:56.320 I haven't like named it. No, I don't mean that. 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:58.640 If you did, I wouldn't even want to know. I 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:01.880 wouldn't want to know. You mean, what's the model? The model? 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:06.800 What is it? It's a Fleetwood Pioneer. I think we 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:09.680 were I've been paying or Frontiers Pioneer Frontier one of 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.040 the two. Yeah, that's a reasonable name because I've been 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:17.120 me my wife are shopping for a new camper trailer. 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:19.480 So I've been paying a lot of attention to camper trailers, 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:21.640 like we're kind of like kicking around, you know, looking 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:26.200 at the our our pod and other kinds. Was Now 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:28.840 whenever I drive by a trailer, I check them out. 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:32.280 And there's been like a weird shift in trailer names 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:35.920 where now they give them like really aggressive names and 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.880 paint like aggressive like claw marks in them and stuff. 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:44.480 You know what I'm talking about it Yeah, uh, it 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:48.040 just means that generation acts has come of trailer buying. 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:50.840 It's like bone names. In the nineties, there was a 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:55.000 lot of names like that executioner yo so I saw 0:07:55.080 --> 0:08:00.520 in their day called the Vengeance, like it's wants out 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:02.840 to get vengeance upon you and they hook up their 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:07.760 fifth wheel. And then there's one called the Prowler, which 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:10.280 is weird. I've seen that one, But that's weird because 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:12.160 if you have if you have a problem, you call 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:15.320 the cops. True, he wouldn't want to haul it around 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:20.400 behind you. Yeah, like the Spider. But yeah, they used 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:21.840 to have names. I feel like they used to have 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:24.320 names like yours, like the Pioneer I saw in the 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:27.600 other day called the Solstice, which I can see Johanni liking. 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.840 There's a lot like After States. There's the Montana, there's 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:34.800 the I've seen the Wye Homing, I've seen the Forester. Yeah, 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:36.679 but now it's like they're trying to be like that. 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:42.199 They're badass, and they got like like claw marks or teeth. Yeah, 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:44.240 but it just feels like it just feels like a 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:48.960 camper trailer. It's like you can't put lipstick on a pig. 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:51.600 It seems like a hard cell. But are you happy 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:54.840 with yours? I know you had to remodel it. Margar 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:59.880 remodels trailer. Now, why are you laughing at that? States 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:03.000 the idea of remodeling the trailer. Yeah, I mean it 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:04.880 was old and decrepit when we bought it. We got 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:08.280 a great deal on it and but ended up finding 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:09.640 that there was a lot more damna. So we had 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:12.880 to replace the roof, putting new floors in, putting new hardware, 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:16.880 and redid a lot of interior stuff, completely renovated the interior. 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:19.800 So now it looks like a you know, our own design, 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:22.480 all painted, all new cabinets, new stuff like that. So 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:24.600 it's cool. It's nice. I've been inside of it. How 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:27.360 many people sleep in there? Uh? To my wife and 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:29.480 I and our son. But how many could sleep in there? 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:32.840 You could do four? I guess if you put two 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:36.760 like young kids on the pull out table. Yeah. See 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:40.120 we had a third kid by accident, Yeah, which really 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:42.840 like I like, and I knew that it was trouble 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:45.800 when it happened, but I didn't even know about um 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:50.480 the implications for camper trailer shopping. Yeah, you could stick 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.880 one on the floor. They're like they camper trailer companies 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:57.920 are generally don't like families of five. Yeah. I need 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:02.839 to find one of those companies out of Utah where 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:04.520 they make you know what I mean, because a lot 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:06.240 of them don't see where you're going there. A lot 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:10.160 of them don't cater to people who had too many children. Yeah, 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.160 that's no joke. I spent two years in Utah and 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:17.040 it's just one giant family after another. Oh yeah, people 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:18.280 there would be like, how do you guys even't have 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:20.840 more kids? When I walk around feeling like there's too 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:23.439 many of them. Restaurants don't even have two tops and 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:29.040 four tops. It's just nothing but sixes and eights. Like 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:30.520 I told you, you're welcome to give it a test 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:33.120 drum if you want to see how the family fits. Yeah, 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:35.000 I think I might go out and take your camp 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:38.199 or trailer out. It's cool. It's cool though. Yeah, we 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:40.800 got new solar set up in it now after everything 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:43.840 got stole, we got new batteries, we got new propane. 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:46.040 Everything's fresh and radar rock and roll. Yeah. Did you 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:50.000 hear this that Mark Um parked his camper trailer. I 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:52.520 was in the car listening to that conversation. Yeah, and 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:56.079 then someone ripped all of his stuff off, and the 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:59.560 owner of the place he parked it was like, huh, Yeah, 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:04.040 he parked it in a secure a lot, supposedly locked 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:06.080 the monitor. You explain that it was like park at 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:09.560 your own risk, Like he assumes no responsibility for this. Yeah. 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:12.080 I don't remember, you know, last summer when I put 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:13.880 it in there, if he gave me a rundown or 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:16.199 maybe it was in the fine print, I don't remember. 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:19.199 But now we we just dropped it off in a 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.000 new store facility because we're still you know, we're still 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:24.440 going to try our luck. But this place seems much 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:28.800 more reputable. They've got surveillance cameras, barbed wire, fans great Gate. 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:31.520 There seems to be something. There's human presence there more often, 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:36.040 and they very clearly articulated, had a much more professional contract. 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:38.840 The whole process seemed a lot more legit looking back. 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:41.600 This guy, you know, he was the only one available, 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:43.240 so we just went with what we could get. Yeah, 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:44.880 I'm go on a place with like a dude with 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:49.080 the eight seventy over his shoulder walking walking to the premier. 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:51.480 I feel better about this one. But she did this 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:53.839 time made it clear, like, hey, we do everything we 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:57.000 possibly can. We have monitoring, we have the gate, etcetera, etcetera, 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:59.800 But you do need to understand there's two people that 0:11:59.880 --> 0:12:02.319 have access to this facility. People can come out. Yeah, 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:04.760 you might have got ripped off by another camper trailer 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:07.199 or possible. You should go look through all the windows. 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:10.120 They could. At this point I'm kind of over it, 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:14.040 but I could. Yeah, look in their camper window, there's 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:18.280 my battery. It's weird, though, is whoever did it had 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:22.960 a strange agenda because, for example, they took our forks 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:26.319 and knives but left the spoons. Were they sterling and 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:29.000 the spoons were no? It was all just really cheap stuff. 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:31.280 They took some paintings that my wife, but some cool 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:33.640 artwork just kind of make it feel different. They took 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:36.360 some left others they left that makes sense. They left 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:39.840 yettie mugs, but took like cheap plastic wear. They took 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:42.440 our batteries and our solar inverter, left the panels. They 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:44.840 took some of my tools, didn't take some what kind 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:47.400 of tools did they have? What are they like? They 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:51.200 took like my ratches set, they took cordless drill took 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:56.480 left my hammer, left some screwdrivers. Ah, did they go 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:58.640 into your drill bit assortment and just pull out a 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:01.000 certain diamond drill bits because they might have been doing 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:06.439 something really specific man influence. Yeah, no, they took both 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:08.600 of I had like two nice boxes full of bits 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:13.880 and stuff all gone. So yeah, on the bridg how 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:16.120 much money did you get wiped out of? I don't know. 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:19.280 I probably put another like five bucks into replace stuff 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:21.959 just to get going again. For the batteries, propane inverter, 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:26.079 some basic tools, which just like to kill that guy. Man, 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:28.880 it was it was shitty, like we just we were 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:30.440 all excited to get to the camper because we've been 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:32.120 traveling for ten days and we're like, all right, we'll 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:33.600 get to the camper that's our home for the next 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.360 six weeks. We can get in a routine. You know, 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:37.920 it's challenging with a one and a half year old 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:39.280 in the tent and trying to do that whole thing 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.720 leading up to it. So when something like that happens 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.440 to me, I spend months just thinking about how cool 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:45.800 it would have been if I could have caught him 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:49.679 and just defiled them, like like the things that I 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:54.360 wouldn't even want anyone to know about. Um last thought 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:56.160 on campers, and we got get to our business at hand. 0:13:56.280 --> 0:14:00.240 Is a complicating factor with the camper trailers. You know, 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:02.200 I have an F one fifty. I want to pull 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:04.000 up behind the F one fifty. I don't want to 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:07.280 go buy a new Imferey going buying a whole new truck. 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:11.079 You shouldn't need to have, no, but mean, I'm not 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:14.400 gonna put like some five mile long fifth wheel on. 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:16.400 Well you don't want that anyways, do you know? I 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:17.920 want to be able to get into cool little spots. 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:21.840 Yanni or he. Yanni's incredulous of a camper in general. 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:24.280 He thinks it's stupid. I mean, I didn't like the 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:26.640 Eddie either, but when it came to having kids and 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.480 stuff and doing long trips like we're doing several months 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.840 at a time. Um, it was the option, best option 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:34.440 for that. Yeah, I want to be clear, this is 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:37.520 strictly a function of having children. Yeah, we usually camp 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:40.000 under a truck like car camp would be like if 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.400 it rains, you've slide under the truck, like have a tent. 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:44.120 But it's just now I want to be like all 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.080 rigged up because by the time if all five of 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:47.520 us are going camp and by the time you get 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:51.320 five sleeping bags, fix sleeping pads to I just want 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:53.480 all that stuff to be in something. Yeah, I get it, 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.120 you know, load up the crayfish traps and hit the road, 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:59.640 get after I like the size of those R pods 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:01.160 like that. It's the size if I was going to 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.400 get a new one, I would get something like that. Yeah, 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:06.440 but someone's got to sleep out under the trailer, which 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.320 is fine. I mean the youngest, a four year old. 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:11.760 I was gonna say, sorry, buddy, you gotta sleep under 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:14.440 the trailer and enjolia. I just feel like it limits 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:16.680 yet a little bit where you're gonna go that. That's 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:19.000 the only reason I'm a little it does. But yeah, 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:20.720 but you Understand what I'm saying with the whole packing 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:23.440 up situation. Understand. And then we're like a turn packing 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:25.200 my truck with all that ship to set up a 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:27.680 car camp. It's a pain. Yeah, And then like Turkey 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:29.640 camp this year starts raining and we're out in the 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:34.640 gumbo and then just everything just goes downhill. Then my 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:36.480 wife's like, you know what, my time to head home. 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:40.120 Once every you know, it's just like it's hard with 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:43.240 We just had this conversation last night about marking the 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:45.920 new kids coming. It's different. Oh, that's right, you're having 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:49.080 a whole another one. Yeah, are you still being all 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:52.160 secret you about your you know which thing that the 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:54.840 other one? Remember the advice I had for you that 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.240 was the contradicted your publisher's advice. Yeah, we can talk 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:02.240 about its. Got a book coming out coming out, tell 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:04.160 everyone real quick. Then we gotta get on what we're 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:05.840 supposed to be doing. Yeah, I got a book coming 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:09.120 out December one. It's called That Wild Country, an epic 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:12.520 journey through the past, present, and future of America's public lands. 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:14.600 So taking a look at you know, we all talked 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:17.600 about this public land stuff, but I got into it 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:21.600 from Outsider's perspective. Right, I'm from Michigan. The last decade, though, 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.280 I've gotten to experience these places a whole lot, spent 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:26.960 a few months every year. UM. So decided, like I 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:29.800 personally wanted to learn more about what led us to 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:32.000 this point that we're in where there's so much contention 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:35.560 around the topic. So the book examines everything that that 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:37.720 got us to this point, and it's told through a 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:41.120 series of my own hunting, fishing all around the country, 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:44.840 rafting trips, cross country, top to bottom. What's the fur 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:48.560 to south? You get m hmm, Arizona. What's the fur 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:54.120 to the east? Get Michigan. North is Alaska above the 0:16:54.200 --> 0:17:01.640 Arctic Circle. We're close to the Arctic circle west. Uh. Well, 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:08.240 Nevada covered the whole damn country pretty close. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:09.960 The next time someone to ask you that, do think 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:12.200 of something better? Because Nevada and Arizona are close together, 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.760 you want to make it northern Nevada at least. Yeah, 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:19.919 that's that makes me think, like northwestern Montana. That's pretty 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:22.040 pretty far west. Um, And it comes up when can 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:25.040 people go? By December one? I got a ways to go. 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:29.480 You can pre order you can pre order that it's 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:31.639 the best title. It's pretty good in any book in 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:35.080 the world. Yeah, well, thank you. I appreciate that. I 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:37.320 also like Larry Mertry's all my friends are going to 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:40.280 be strangers. But that Wild Country is a close second. 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:44.600 Stems from a quote from Walt Stegner talking about you 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:46.639 know how we still need that Wild Country if for 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:49.240 no other reason than to, you know, sit there in 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:51.000 the office and think about or walk to its edge 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:53.640 and look over it. It's part of the geography of Hope, 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:57.320 he said. And uh, and I that resonated with name. 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:00.840 Did you think about naming it the geography of Hope? Uh? 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:04.520 It seemed to to Uh. I don't want to say cliche, 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:07.200 but it's been used, like people talk about this article 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:09.880 titles the Geography of Hope and stuff like that. It's great, 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:12.120 it's a great title. But I thought that that Wild 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:14.359 Country would be a little bit off of that. But 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:18.399 still speak to it. Okay, you can come back on 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:20.680 in December when people can actually buy it. Yeah, people 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.080 will pre order stuff, but they don't like to. Yeah. 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:26.760 I get that. Um, okay, everybody's got to do themselves. Now, Hank, 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:30.480 we already heard from you. You're talking about uh, hanging 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:34.679 deer up, yep, yep, Hank Forster. Quality Deer Management Association 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:37.920 A round the hunting heritage programs. So anything that educates 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:40.800 or recruits a new hunter, that kind of stuff. One 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.160 of the younger Hanks on the planet. Possibly, I haven't 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:47.879 looked into that yet. Go ahead. Ryan fior Um, senior 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:51.520 regional director, kind of in charge of grassroots operations, call 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:57.240 the Dear Management Association, leaving Eagle Long Long Tong, Jannie 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:04.040 and Matt Ross with the Quality Deer Management Association UM, 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:08.680 the assistant director of conservation and I appreciate you having us. Yeah, great. 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:11.760 How do we Let's say someone, you know, you're at 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:13.879 a party or whatever, an elevator and someone's like, hey, 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:19.320 what is uh, what's q d M A, What do 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:20.840 you guys do? What do you guys rip out? What 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:23.960 do you say? That elevator speech? Right? Like what do 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:26.680 you stay? Uh? You know, probably the first thing I 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:29.960 would say is, uh, we're a deer hunting organization. UM. 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:32.639 If the person deer hunts, they might get that and 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:35.800 they may not have heard of us, UM, but our 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.880 conservation organization for deer hunters, that's what we are. When 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:40.800 you say they might not. Yeah, every I think everybody, 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:45.120 you know what, let's do this real quick explain where 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.840 like q D M okay and q D M a 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:52.880 and where one ends and the other begins. So, quality 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:58.000 deer management is a concept that arrived around the mid seventies, 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:01.239 and it actually came that early. Yeah, seventy four, there 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:05.640 was a book UM named Producing Quality White Tails, that's 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:09.520 the title, and al brothers Murphy Ray Jr. Wrote the 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:13.200 book the both biologists out of Texas, and uh, that 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:17.800 book was kind of the beginning of a paradigm shift 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:22.720 and how people were thinking about deer um starting you know, 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:25.240 at the turn of the century. Really we had started 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.640 a program of protection and recovery and we can talk 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:32.960 about the histological part of that, but uh, dear populations 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:37.960 were starting to really skyrocket. And that book, the concept 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:40.800 of quality deer management was more about managing for dear 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:46.280 health UM habitat health. So it centered on three principles 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:50.160 quality deer management. And you can really manage any game 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:53.800 species really UM in the same way. But QDM is 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:57.720 based on trying to manage the dear the population of 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:01.960 what other whatever, and weal you're talking about UM to 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:05.200 not exceed what the habitat could support, so not to 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:09.040 exceed carrying capacity. That's the first principle. Second is to 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:12.240 have a balanced sex ratio, so have as many males 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:15.320 as females on the landscape. If you walk away from 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:19.240 the dear population and there's no human influence, eventually gets 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:21.639 close to one to one, two to one, where because 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:25.320 they're born, they're born at one to one, straight up 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:29.280 one to one basic humans. Uh, yeah, slightly heavier to 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:33.240 to the males, but they're born yeah, slightly heavier. Um. 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:36.440 So that that concept, like if you really walked away 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:40.840 from a deer population, it would it would correct itself. Um. 0:21:41.880 --> 0:21:44.680 And then the third, the third principle of quality deer 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:48.760 management is to make sure that their deer or whatever 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:51.960 animal in all age classes, so you have young, middle aged, 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:57.159 and older individuals represented, not in equal parts, but that 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:03.320 there existent on the landscape. Again, walking away, Um, that's 0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:06.760 what would happen naturally and uh, but but but but not, 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:10.920 it would be there'd be a stark drop off. Yeah, 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:13.200 I mean it would be heavy. Like honestly, if you 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:17.520 looked at naturally occurring population where humans aren't influenced, Uh, 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:20.480 you would have like forty at least percent of the 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:24.119 population be the first age class because it's it's correcting 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:27.600 itself every time. Um. But go go back to that 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:30.119 thing a minute ago about that they're born at a 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:36.360 one to one male female ratio. Um. But but the females, 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:40.720 like an unhunted population, both the females love way longer 0:22:40.720 --> 0:22:45.760 than the males. Uh they can, they do, yes, they do. 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:49.280 But when you account for all individuals that are born 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:54.320 in a year, you're seeing a slightly higher male to 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:56.640 female ratio, but not by much. It's just a couple 0:22:56.680 --> 0:22:59.040 of percent. Like. But the reason I bring that up 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:01.000 is if the females are longer living. If you went 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:05.520 and looked at a total whole population, it's either they'd 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:08.239 stick around longer. Like, what's the oldest male you've ever 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:11.479 heard about? Uh, well, the oldest buck you've ever heard 0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:15.119 about in the wild. Uh, there's been bucks that have 0:23:15.200 --> 0:23:18.680 been killed in their teens, No kidding, really, yeah, you know, 0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:21.000 in the wild, even in the wild, I think the 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:26.720 oldest yeah, late teens. Yeah, they look pretty haggard, they 0:23:26.760 --> 0:23:29.280 got to look pretty yeah. Yeah, and in captivity they 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:32.600 can live older. I mean just where I hunt and 0:23:32.680 --> 0:23:35.359 I'm from New York and uh, the property that I 0:23:35.760 --> 0:23:39.000 hunt on before I started hunting there and kind of 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:41.960 talking to people about quality deer management and hunting that way, 0:23:42.200 --> 0:23:45.160 they basically abstained from shooting doors, and we could talk 0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:48.240 more about that too, but I convinced them that we 0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:50.600 need to reduce the deer population. U let's start shooting 0:23:50.640 --> 0:23:52.760 some doughs. And they had had abstained from shooting doors 0:23:52.840 --> 0:23:55.240 for so long that within the first couple of seasons 0:23:55.280 --> 0:23:58.960 we sho had some really old deer and I'm I was, 0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:02.240 I'm very interested to see those ages. So we age 0:24:02.240 --> 0:24:06.640 all the deer that yeah, um box, not so much. 0:24:06.680 --> 0:24:08.480 I mean it was very skew because they were shooting 0:24:08.480 --> 0:24:10.080 all the bucks. Yeah, they were shooting all the bucks. 0:24:10.119 --> 0:24:12.000 It was very very skewed. Most of the box were 0:24:12.040 --> 0:24:14.439 young one one and two year old, but certainly one 0:24:14.480 --> 0:24:17.359 year old, but we had sent teeth away. I we 0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:20.200 aged the jawbones by their wear, but we I also 0:24:20.240 --> 0:24:23.160 send an incisor in for any deer that looks really old, 0:24:23.240 --> 0:24:25.800 including the does, and we one of the hunters on 0:24:25.840 --> 0:24:28.800 the property killed the dough second or third season. That 0:24:28.960 --> 0:24:33.919 was twenty and a half. Woh man, you should look 0:24:34.000 --> 0:24:36.000 this up, Steve, I think you'd like it. But I 0:24:36.080 --> 0:24:38.320 saw photos of a buck that made it to sixteen 0:24:38.359 --> 0:24:41.359 and his antlers kind of ms reverted to row deer shapes. 0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:44.639 They and I don't know if it's common, but they 0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:47.920 they're antlers just kind of deform or like backtrack into 0:24:48.040 --> 0:24:52.000 a different animal. Huh. It was really weird. Yeah, we 0:24:52.080 --> 0:24:54.800 were kids, like you know, wow, we had so many 0:24:55.000 --> 0:24:58.280 weird things, we believe. But if you got any kind 0:24:58.320 --> 0:25:02.200 of misshapen antler, like alimation, and we'd be like, that's 0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:04.880 a really old buck who used to be big. He's 0:25:04.960 --> 0:25:09.600 like always always what we thought, you know, and usually 0:25:09.720 --> 0:25:12.399 usually followed by the thought, we got to call that 0:25:12.520 --> 0:25:15.560 deer right, because there's something wrong there was you didn't 0:25:16.000 --> 0:25:19.800 know as a boy, and I remember this chance like 0:25:19.800 --> 0:25:22.280 I remember this. Kind of part of my interest in 0:25:22.760 --> 0:25:26.960 q d M is as a boy, everybody shot. If 0:25:27.000 --> 0:25:29.120 you shot, like you just shot any buck you saw, 0:25:30.720 --> 0:25:33.600 it would be a laughable idea that you would, like 0:25:33.800 --> 0:25:36.720 let a buck walk past. I remember the first guy, 0:25:36.840 --> 0:25:39.160 and I'm still friends with him. The first guy ever 0:25:39.280 --> 0:25:41.119 heard of passing a deer up was a guy, a 0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:44.400 gentleman by the name of Tim's Elton Rust who grew 0:25:44.480 --> 0:25:48.080 up on a farm, and everything in deer hunting changed 0:25:48.560 --> 0:25:51.400 all like two things happened at the same time. Three 0:25:51.480 --> 0:25:54.600 things happened. Uh, you started to be able to hunt 0:25:54.600 --> 0:25:58.840 from an elevated platform with a rifle, and that changed. 0:26:00.280 --> 0:26:04.480 How it just changed, how like people that had access 0:26:04.520 --> 0:26:07.760 to land, how they started to perceive the land. Because 0:26:07.800 --> 0:26:10.720 it used to be that if someone had a farm, everybody, 0:26:11.160 --> 0:26:13.960 not everybody, but like like everyone from church or whatever 0:26:14.359 --> 0:26:16.440 hunted that farm, and you just sit in the field 0:26:16.520 --> 0:26:18.959 corners or whatever. Then when alst you can home from 0:26:18.960 --> 0:26:24.200 an elevated platform, um, people who own the farms or 0:26:24.240 --> 0:26:28.200 their immediate family, right would all a sudden build these 0:26:28.280 --> 0:26:35.280 giants platforms, and then you needed less people out because 0:26:35.320 --> 0:26:37.320 you you can see so much more. And it was 0:26:37.440 --> 0:26:39.480 right around the time when people started like thinking about 0:26:39.600 --> 0:26:42.600 like bucks became like valuable. You know. It was used 0:26:42.600 --> 0:26:44.119 to be just like, oh, everybody comes out, we shoot 0:26:44.160 --> 0:26:46.160 deer and philidor tags, and then all of a sudden 0:26:46.160 --> 0:26:48.560 it became that like it just became much more restrictive 0:26:48.680 --> 0:26:52.200 because deer kind of co modified a little bit, you know, 0:26:52.720 --> 0:26:54.480 and then people then people will be like, well, they 0:26:54.480 --> 0:26:56.159 didn't want other people hunting because they were trying to 0:26:56.200 --> 0:26:58.680 grow big bucks well. And and then then the whole 0:26:58.800 --> 0:27:01.600 culture of deer hunting change in my area of Michigan. 0:27:01.960 --> 0:27:04.720 It was kind of a wave across the country. Really. 0:27:04.840 --> 0:27:07.920 I mean that that book was written, but this didn't 0:27:07.920 --> 0:27:09.760 happen till that. This didn't happen till the early to 0:27:09.800 --> 0:27:12.639 midnight nineties, right. So the way, the kind of the 0:27:12.800 --> 0:27:15.280 order of how things happened was that book was written, 0:27:16.040 --> 0:27:19.800 which is where quality, the word quality came from Quality 0:27:19.840 --> 0:27:25.600 Deer management, the concept and h our founder was a 0:27:25.720 --> 0:27:28.680 biologist for the South Carolina Department and not to Resources. 0:27:29.000 --> 0:27:32.120 What was the name Joe Hamilton's Yeah, and he's still 0:27:32.280 --> 0:27:35.760 with us today. He's he's been with us. We were 0:27:35.880 --> 0:27:41.800 thirty first year UM he uh was responsible And I 0:27:41.840 --> 0:27:44.200 don't remember the exact year, but it was in the eighties. 0:27:44.800 --> 0:27:48.159 UM of hosting a regional conference that happens in the 0:27:48.240 --> 0:27:51.040 South called the Southeast Dear Study Group meeting. Each state 0:27:51.080 --> 0:27:53.639 agency takes turns hosting it and it's where all of 0:27:53.720 --> 0:27:56.800 the agency folks get together and a lot of academics 0:27:56.840 --> 0:27:59.800 and they talk about the latest concepts of deer research. 0:28:00.480 --> 0:28:03.720 UM monitoring all all types of deer management related things, 0:28:04.200 --> 0:28:07.400 and South Carolina hosted it that year. Joe was an employee, 0:28:07.920 --> 0:28:12.280 and uh he invited the author of that book, producing 0:28:12.280 --> 0:28:14.600 Claudie white Does, to be the keynote speaker, because it 0:28:14.720 --> 0:28:17.360 was this new concept. It was five ten years five 0:28:17.440 --> 0:28:21.159 years older so at the time. And he took that 0:28:21.359 --> 0:28:25.080 thought and that and and hearing that person speak and 0:28:25.440 --> 0:28:28.840 went back to his job. Joe worked in a part 0:28:28.880 --> 0:28:31.119 of South Carolina, he didn't cover the whole state, and 0:28:31.200 --> 0:28:34.280 he worked with about eight hundred hunt clubs. And uh, 0:28:34.880 --> 0:28:39.800 the book really was starting a change in how people 0:28:39.840 --> 0:28:43.360 were thinking about dear going from you know, a time 0:28:43.440 --> 0:28:46.000 of trying to build a lot of the southern states 0:28:46.040 --> 0:28:50.640 were actually uh um, bringing deer in and and trying 0:28:50.720 --> 0:28:55.280 to build population restocking them. And a lot of hunters 0:28:55.360 --> 0:28:59.040 had that thought process of you don't shoot those it's 0:28:59.280 --> 0:29:02.120 you know, that would be almost a sin. We want 0:29:02.160 --> 0:29:04.080 to build deer populations. But at the same time, if 0:29:04.120 --> 0:29:06.600 you looked around, the habitat was really suffering. You could 0:29:06.600 --> 0:29:09.880 see brows lines everywhere, and the age structure was out 0:29:09.920 --> 0:29:14.560 of balance. Um, most males in the state, we're young. 0:29:14.760 --> 0:29:17.240 I'm talking about they wouldn't see past their first birthday. 0:29:17.600 --> 0:29:19.280 So Joe said, you know what, I think I'm going 0:29:19.320 --> 0:29:21.480 to start this local group. It wasn't meant to be 0:29:21.880 --> 0:29:25.680 a what is now an international organization to communicate good 0:29:25.720 --> 0:29:29.160 ways to manage those club properties. So we created a 0:29:29.200 --> 0:29:34.520 newsletter and named it something like the South Carolina Quality 0:29:34.560 --> 0:29:39.400 Deer Management Association. And these are clubs out of South Carolina. Yeah, 0:29:40.120 --> 0:29:42.920 in a region of South Carolina. UM, I think that 0:29:43.120 --> 0:29:48.040 was generally the low country. And uh, that just fast 0:29:48.080 --> 0:29:51.440 forwarding through time, grew to to a state specific organization. 0:29:51.880 --> 0:29:53.880 Within a short period of time, it was they covered 0:29:53.920 --> 0:29:56.840 all of South Carolina, and then eventually we were named 0:29:56.840 --> 0:29:59.480 the North American Quality Deer Measurement Association. And then just 0:29:59.600 --> 0:30:02.680 cut and may at some point, because around the time 0:30:02.720 --> 0:30:06.760 of the nineties, that concept almost burned like a fire, 0:30:06.920 --> 0:30:11.160 going from South Carolina up through the Midwest and everywhere. 0:30:11.400 --> 0:30:15.840 I'm surprised that it didn't grab holding Texas first. Uh, 0:30:17.720 --> 0:30:21.080 it's the birthplace of quality deer management. The concepts Texas 0:30:21.240 --> 0:30:25.280 whole is. Yeah, Al Al Brothers and Murphy Ray and 0:30:25.320 --> 0:30:28.440 a lot of their cohorror just they gave birth to 0:30:28.560 --> 0:30:32.000 the idea. But the Association was born in South and 0:30:32.120 --> 0:30:34.360 not hodifying it and organizing and the group was a 0:30:34.400 --> 0:30:38.959 South Carolina idea. Yeah, and you know, organizing deer hunters 0:30:39.960 --> 0:30:42.800 has historically been a pretty difficult thing. I mean trying 0:30:42.800 --> 0:30:46.360 to get deer hunters to agree on something. And Joe 0:30:46.880 --> 0:30:54.240 also that just help people, help people understand what you're talking. 0:30:54.240 --> 0:30:56.520 You know, there's a lot of dissension among deer hunters 0:30:56.560 --> 0:31:01.000 in terms of weapons used, UH stra adages, whether they're 0:31:01.040 --> 0:31:04.760 doing using dogs or drives or stand hunting, and it's 0:31:04.800 --> 0:31:07.360 hard to get deer honors. Also to see that there's 0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:10.440 a need for conservation in terms of there's a need 0:31:10.520 --> 0:31:12.200 for an organization to tell him what to do, because 0:31:12.200 --> 0:31:15.200 a lot of deer hunters feel like what grandfather, Grandpappy 0:31:15.280 --> 0:31:17.840 told me is what we do, right, So it's that 0:31:18.080 --> 0:31:20.920 that was difficult. But Joe had been spending some time 0:31:21.600 --> 0:31:27.400 in Australia UM and also uh Tasmania and UH. He 0:31:27.520 --> 0:31:30.880 had seen that they organized deer hunters through a group 0:31:31.080 --> 0:31:34.720 called the Australian Deer Association I think is the a 0:31:34.840 --> 0:31:38.240 d A and UH the way that they structured their 0:31:39.320 --> 0:31:41.960 UM grassroots activities and even what they name like we 0:31:42.120 --> 0:31:45.760 name instead of chapters, we have branches. That's that's fashioned 0:31:45.800 --> 0:31:50.000 after the ADA Australian Deer Association. And he had spent 0:31:50.320 --> 0:31:52.320 some time, he had been brought over there to speak 0:31:52.720 --> 0:31:55.160 as a keynote speaker on some events and came back 0:31:55.200 --> 0:31:59.320 and that's what's their program. I mean in Australian Tasmania 0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:03.840 they have a quality deer management Tasmania wide for all 0:32:04.240 --> 0:32:07.600 pretty much all the deer species down there. Deer all introduced. Deer, yeah, 0:32:07.720 --> 0:32:10.960 they're all introduced, but there again just trying to say, 0:32:11.000 --> 0:32:13.800 all right, looking at the deer, is there too many 0:32:13.880 --> 0:32:16.800 for what the land can support? What's the buckado ratio? 0:32:17.240 --> 0:32:22.520 And our deer represented in generally all age classes. That's 0:32:22.560 --> 0:32:25.360 the concept your night. I was out to eat with 0:32:25.400 --> 0:32:29.280 my wife and her body and uh guy puts a 0:32:29.320 --> 0:32:31.720 piece of fish down in front of me and says 0:32:31.800 --> 0:32:38.200 that's a Tasmanian UH ocean trout And I'm like, is 0:32:38.240 --> 0:32:44.680 that right? So I look online and it's a someone's 0:32:44.720 --> 0:32:48.080 like has an aquaculture facility and he's raising Pacific steelhead 0:32:48.120 --> 0:32:53.560 and Tasmania marketing and under Tasmanian Ocean trout. I was like, 0:32:53.640 --> 0:32:56.280 no one, I haven't heard of this fish literally a 0:32:56.360 --> 0:33:01.640 bait and switch. So when you said Tasmania at Perk Ducts, 0:33:01.720 --> 0:33:03.680 reminded me of my meal here at night, or a 0:33:03.800 --> 0:33:06.840 portion of my meal there at night. Um okay, So 0:33:08.240 --> 0:33:14.720 every gets all excited and it sweeps like wildfire. But 0:33:15.000 --> 0:33:16.840 you know, I got another question about this because I'm 0:33:16.880 --> 0:33:18.800 just like, I think of all this in context of 0:33:18.840 --> 0:33:20.320 where I grew up. Is it do you think it's 0:33:20.360 --> 0:33:24.480 possibly true that there were no like we didn't have 0:33:24.560 --> 0:33:28.080 trail cams. We didn't have trail cams when I was 0:33:28.120 --> 0:33:32.960 a kid, so late eighties, early nineties. But my feeling 0:33:33.040 --> 0:33:37.160 looking back on it is that no dear like that 0:33:37.280 --> 0:33:39.800 you could go out to a large property and say 0:33:39.880 --> 0:33:43.760 that there are no dear living here that are older 0:33:43.840 --> 0:33:47.040 than two, and if there's any of older would be surprising. 0:33:47.720 --> 0:33:50.840 Is that ever true for real? That no dear where 0:33:50.840 --> 0:33:54.720 you would actually walk into no box. I'm sorry because 0:33:55.840 --> 0:34:00.480 like looking at the enormous pile of deer that our 0:34:00.560 --> 0:34:04.240 collective group of family and friends at a property to 0:34:04.520 --> 0:34:07.240 kill every year, and the fact that I could point 0:34:07.320 --> 0:34:09.480 to one buck which is hanging on my mom's wall 0:34:09.560 --> 0:34:13.319 to this day, which was like a freaking giant because 0:34:13.360 --> 0:34:16.080 there was a hundred twenty in white Tail. Was like 0:34:16.280 --> 0:34:18.360 people came from far and wide to look at that 0:34:18.440 --> 0:34:21.839 deer and at a property scale, absolutely, and talking about 0:34:21.840 --> 0:34:26.400 a statewide scale in those years. Being Ryan's from Pennsylvania 0:34:28.080 --> 0:34:31.000 of the statewide harvest of bucks was one and a 0:34:31.080 --> 0:34:33.640 half years old before they started changing some of the 0:34:33.680 --> 0:34:37.880 things they did in Pennsylvania, and Pennsylvania kills thirty thousand 0:34:37.960 --> 0:34:41.600 deer year, yeah, Ben, a hundred fifty thousand bucks a 0:34:41.680 --> 0:34:43.880 year and n or year in anifold. I wrote this 0:34:43.920 --> 0:34:45.439 into the show one time. I think you talked about 0:34:45.480 --> 0:34:47.480 covered it in the Mexico episode. He was the guy 0:34:47.520 --> 0:34:50.600 that wrote in about Pennsylvania's age class. Oh yeah, because 0:34:50.640 --> 0:34:54.080 Pennsylvania were similar, you know, And I would just imagine 0:34:54.120 --> 0:34:57.759 those statistics were pretty close. But to your point, our 0:34:57.840 --> 0:35:00.040 camp same thing, you know, maybe it had a like 0:35:00.239 --> 0:35:03.160 man like there was nobody passing a spike in arcamp. Man, 0:35:03.480 --> 0:35:05.360 it's going down. I remember we had a late season 0:35:05.640 --> 0:35:08.200 a late season bowl hunt once, not at once, but 0:35:08.239 --> 0:35:10.680 they they'd run like late archery. And I remember sitting there. 0:35:11.560 --> 0:35:14.279 It was in December, um and I remember sitting in 0:35:14.280 --> 0:35:18.960 the field and counting nineties does yeah, and not a 0:35:19.080 --> 0:35:22.720 single buck, and like, man, you shot if you shot 0:35:22.920 --> 0:35:25.320 every buck you saw. We were just talking about that 0:35:25.600 --> 0:35:28.399 as far as habitat, regeneration and everything. But I still 0:35:28.520 --> 0:35:31.040 hunt the saving camp in gun season that I did 0:35:31.120 --> 0:35:34.680 as a kid, and I mean we shot the deer, 0:35:34.760 --> 0:35:37.000 but no, it was sacrilegious to shoot at them. He 0:35:37.040 --> 0:35:38.640 there was just no way you were doing that. And 0:35:38.680 --> 0:35:40.800 you would go to stand the first day of buck season. 0:35:40.880 --> 0:35:42.320 That that's what it was. Was the first day of 0:35:42.360 --> 0:35:45.640 buck season the Monday after Thanksgiving, And it was almost 0:35:45.719 --> 0:35:47.960 like a badge of honor. Who saw the most dear? 0:35:48.040 --> 0:35:49.520 You know, you come in for lunch, I'm a dear. 0:35:49.520 --> 0:35:51.759 You see this more at forty seven? You saw forty seven? 0:35:51.840 --> 0:35:54.279 You know, it's just your your spots better in mind 0:35:54.480 --> 0:35:57.120 you saw thirty you know. Yeah, yeah, that's just waiting 0:35:57.160 --> 0:35:59.360 for a buck. Yeah, I mean we never had that. 0:35:59.480 --> 0:36:02.120 Like it was taboo and a lot of circles and 0:36:02.360 --> 0:36:05.479 even among my father's friends, it was taboo to kill doles. 0:36:05.520 --> 0:36:08.360 But he really encouraged dose shooting, but not from a 0:36:08.480 --> 0:36:11.120 management perspective. He just it was just stacking up deer, 0:36:11.520 --> 0:36:15.399 that's just And even in Pennsylvania then we had two 0:36:15.480 --> 0:36:18.600 weeks of buck season and then the fount that we 0:36:18.640 --> 0:36:21.839 couldn't hunt on Sunday, so Saturday the buck season went out. 0:36:21.880 --> 0:36:25.080 After the second Saturday, the following Monday was the opening 0:36:25.200 --> 0:36:28.320 day of doze season. And it was almost like, you know, 0:36:28.400 --> 0:36:30.400 the guys that hunted for two weeks in camp and 0:36:30.400 --> 0:36:32.480 hadn't shot a deer, They're like, no, we get to 0:36:32.600 --> 0:36:34.799 we get to unleash here. And just for three days 0:36:34.880 --> 0:36:37.239 it was that shooting you know, everything that walks in 0:36:37.320 --> 0:36:39.000 front of us type of deal because you finally get 0:36:39.040 --> 0:36:40.520 some shooting, kind of get some shooting in. You know, 0:36:40.560 --> 0:36:43.520 we're warm this gun up here. And then we were 0:36:43.560 --> 0:36:46.719 talking about I was just thinking, I remember being a kid, 0:36:47.200 --> 0:36:48.680 you know, like you and all you know of the 0:36:48.800 --> 0:36:51.279 of the hunters bringing deer back and camping. They were 0:36:51.280 --> 0:36:54.120 all looking back, know what I know now I probably 0:36:54.560 --> 0:36:56.320 remember I can count on one hand how many of 0:36:56.360 --> 0:36:57.680 the more two and a half years old. They were 0:36:57.680 --> 0:36:59.000 all a year and a half old. But I remember 0:36:59.120 --> 0:37:02.360 like the calm and conversation was, you know, you know 0:37:02.440 --> 0:37:04.239 that much for hamlers man, they got a big body, 0:37:04.320 --> 0:37:06.040 you know, every year and a half old, ninety pound, 0:37:06.200 --> 0:37:07.880 you know, white tail buck you know he's a big 0:37:07.960 --> 0:37:10.799 body or big The one guy on our camp used 0:37:10.840 --> 0:37:13.640 to age them. I swear to God he would call 0:37:13.719 --> 0:37:15.800 him slow walkers. You know, I'm looking for one of 0:37:15.800 --> 0:37:19.640 them slow walkers like that, and I still use that 0:37:19.760 --> 0:37:30.359 to this, uh slow walking slunger. Uh. So q DAM 0:37:30.600 --> 0:37:33.640 girls out of South Carolina and starts spreading around the country. 0:37:34.160 --> 0:37:37.000 And what does people's primary like, what is the primary 0:37:37.080 --> 0:37:39.600 motivation do you feel that most people who were getting 0:37:39.680 --> 0:37:42.319 into it? And when did it blow up? Like when 0:37:42.320 --> 0:37:44.560 did it become a national thing? I think in the nineties. 0:37:46.239 --> 0:37:50.759 I I joined and heard about it in the late nineties. Uh. 0:37:51.719 --> 0:37:54.000 And now I lived in New Hampshire at the time, 0:37:54.080 --> 0:37:55.319 so I think it took a while to get up 0:37:55.320 --> 0:38:00.239 to New England. But um, it became pretty commonplace, seeing 0:38:00.320 --> 0:38:03.360 like the outdoor literature, you know, all the hunting magazines 0:38:03.360 --> 0:38:05.080 out there. You'd see QTM throwing around in there. And 0:38:05.160 --> 0:38:09.720 we have this discussion internally, I think organically the hunting 0:38:09.760 --> 0:38:12.520 community was gunning that direction. If you think about when 0:38:12.640 --> 0:38:16.120 outdoor television started and then people started shooting bigger bucks 0:38:16.120 --> 0:38:18.520 on outdoor television and you know that, and then that 0:38:18.719 --> 0:38:21.239 magazine articles. You know, I remember when a hundred forty 0:38:21.239 --> 0:38:23.600 inch buck was huge and then fast you know that 0:38:23.719 --> 0:38:25.680 was probably the mid nineties of the late nineties, and 0:38:25.680 --> 0:38:27.560 then fast forward ten years and it had to be 0:38:27.640 --> 0:38:30.400 a hundred eight inch buck, you know, So it just 0:38:30.520 --> 0:38:33.480 kind of all happened together. You know, we ask you, 0:38:33.680 --> 0:38:36.080 we ask ourselves. You know, where will we be if 0:38:36.160 --> 0:38:38.279 it wasn't for television and vice versa? You know, we're 0:38:38.440 --> 0:38:41.560 quality your management. Do you mean you mean that television 0:38:41.640 --> 0:38:44.800 popularize the idea of shooting a big buck? I know, 0:38:44.880 --> 0:38:47.440 I don't want I think it say popularize that. You 0:38:47.440 --> 0:38:50.000 can look back at wait tail buck polls. You know, 0:38:50.120 --> 0:38:52.839 like in my community we have art the club. That's 0:38:52.840 --> 0:38:54.400 a good point, man. People have always wanted to kill 0:38:54.440 --> 0:38:57.399 big bucks. It's always been there. The one hunt club 0:38:57.480 --> 0:39:00.160 I go to. It's that they still have on in 0:39:00.239 --> 0:39:04.279 the bar their first buck pulls. You know, they're the 0:39:04.360 --> 0:39:06.120 people signed up for it and they kept you know, 0:39:06.200 --> 0:39:08.799 over all those years. So the attraction of shooting big 0:39:08.840 --> 0:39:11.120 bucks was all has always been there. But I think 0:39:12.680 --> 0:39:15.120 through the outdoor channel or outdoor media however you want 0:39:15.120 --> 0:39:17.560 to look at it, that just really boosted it. For sure. 0:39:17.800 --> 0:39:20.920 That that wasn't I mean, we talk often about QDM 0:39:21.000 --> 0:39:24.000 and a byproduct of it is Bigger Dear because you're 0:39:24.000 --> 0:39:26.920 trying to push dear into older age classes. But when 0:39:27.040 --> 0:39:31.040 Joe formed the organization, certainly that was probably the apple 0:39:31.160 --> 0:39:33.000 that he hung in front of some of those clubs. 0:39:33.320 --> 0:39:36.799 But he designed the logo with a basically a two 0:39:36.880 --> 0:39:38.400 year old buck. He didn't want to make it a 0:39:38.760 --> 0:39:42.640 gargage wan buck. Uh. It's standard eight point probably hunting 0:39:42.760 --> 0:39:45.600 hundred engineer with a doll next to it. Because it's 0:39:45.640 --> 0:39:48.160 all about trying to balance box and dolls. That's what 0:39:48.320 --> 0:39:53.400 QDM is really about, all right. This gets to like, 0:39:53.800 --> 0:39:57.439 I think, like a pretty important question is as people 0:39:57.520 --> 0:40:02.400 adopt QDM or joined q d M A, the primary motivation, 0:40:03.160 --> 0:40:06.880 regardless of regardless of what the mission is or the 0:40:07.000 --> 0:40:09.680 side benefits or whatever, the primary motivation is that you 0:40:09.840 --> 0:40:15.800 could grow a trophy buck on your property for the 0:40:16.200 --> 0:40:18.400 for the joiner, yeah, I mean just for the for 0:40:18.480 --> 0:40:22.160 the public, like that's what they see, right. I think 0:40:22.200 --> 0:40:25.120 it depends we have a pretty good mix. Some people 0:40:25.200 --> 0:40:27.840 want to learn how to manage the habitat for a 0:40:28.000 --> 0:40:30.279 lot of different species. Um, we have a lot of 0:40:30.320 --> 0:40:32.719 that information out there, But at the end of the day. 0:40:32.760 --> 0:40:34.520 And I I tell people this all the time. I 0:40:34.600 --> 0:40:38.840 mean especially you know, predominantly males or hunters. And just 0:40:39.000 --> 0:40:42.399 like buck poles started, you know, sixty years ago. So yeah, 0:40:42.560 --> 0:40:44.760 you know that the byproduct of bigger antlers is certainly 0:40:44.920 --> 0:40:47.399 an attraction for sure, especially if you're managing your own ground, 0:40:48.000 --> 0:40:50.200 you know. But I wouldn't say that that's the sole 0:40:50.280 --> 0:40:53.360 reason people seek us out. I think it's important to 0:40:53.640 --> 0:40:56.680 mention that we really try to deliver the science. I mean, 0:40:56.880 --> 0:40:59.680 that's what we do, is we keep abreast of all 0:40:59.719 --> 0:41:02.759 the search from the universities, and we try to communicate 0:41:02.840 --> 0:41:05.800 that to the deer hunter. And uh, you know, you 0:41:06.040 --> 0:41:07.880 you go out there and you talk to deer hunters, 0:41:07.920 --> 0:41:10.840 and there's so many urban legends or misconceptions of what 0:41:11.040 --> 0:41:13.440 dear do and how they work. And and I think 0:41:13.480 --> 0:41:15.080 that's one of the strong suits of Q. Main what 0:41:15.160 --> 0:41:17.840 they've done is we've really gotten people to understand, you know, 0:41:18.120 --> 0:41:20.040 how they view the world and what they see, what 0:41:20.160 --> 0:41:22.640 they smell, you know, all that kind of stuff. So 0:41:22.960 --> 0:41:25.560 but but to what end, you know what I mean, Like, 0:41:25.760 --> 0:41:27.920 what is the like if you had like let's say 0:41:27.920 --> 0:41:31.320 you had a vision statement, what's the q d M 0:41:31.400 --> 0:41:33.680 A vision statement. Remember where were the statements we're talking 0:41:33.680 --> 0:41:37.719 about their day annie vision and mission. Yeah, what's the 0:41:37.920 --> 0:41:40.239 like the vision like where would it lead? Like it 0:41:40.239 --> 0:41:44.480 would lead to what, you know, the goals that I 0:41:44.719 --> 0:41:47.960 was talking about. But you know, habitat herd and hunters. 0:41:48.120 --> 0:41:50.560 You know, we want to look out for the deer, 0:41:50.840 --> 0:41:53.600 their habitat and the future of hunting and what's like 0:41:53.680 --> 0:41:55.719 the in your mind, what's the worst thing that could 0:41:55.760 --> 0:42:00.239 happen to deer hunting? I think hunter loss. I mean 0:42:00.280 --> 0:42:02.680 that's what I'm paid to do. But I think hunter 0:42:02.800 --> 0:42:04.960 loss is the worst thing. You know, that's one of 0:42:05.000 --> 0:42:07.880 our dark clouds. And CWD of course, Yeah, well that's 0:42:07.920 --> 0:42:11.800 what I think. That. Yeah, that I think if if someone, 0:42:11.920 --> 0:42:14.680 if a hunter were to contract c w D from 0:42:14.680 --> 0:42:17.799 a deer, it would be the end of the game. Catastrophic. 0:42:17.880 --> 0:42:23.440 Well that's talking about trivializing the actual service that hunters provide. 0:42:24.120 --> 0:42:26.080 We do it because it's self serving. We want to 0:42:26.160 --> 0:42:28.160 go out, we want to experience out the outdoors, we 0:42:28.239 --> 0:42:31.120 want to get meat for our families, um, but we 0:42:31.200 --> 0:42:36.520 also provide a very big service to to to everybody, 0:42:36.600 --> 0:42:39.600 to all public by removing deer and keeping deer populations 0:42:39.880 --> 0:42:45.160 at bay. And if that was trivialized or even fractured 0:42:45.239 --> 0:42:47.839 to a point where people don't support hunting because right now, 0:42:48.520 --> 0:42:51.800 most hunter, most of the non hunting public supports hunting 0:42:52.480 --> 0:42:57.200 when when it's done for meat, it's two for deer 0:42:57.239 --> 0:43:02.719 and turkeys. Yeah, but if you who's that that support, um, 0:43:03.640 --> 0:43:06.000 it's not you know, we don't. We don't have it's 0:43:06.040 --> 0:43:08.000 a privilege to go hunting. It's not a right. So 0:43:08.520 --> 0:43:10.800 if we're not even allowed to do that to to 0:43:10.960 --> 0:43:14.120 sustain that, it would be catastrophic. On a byproduct of 0:43:14.200 --> 0:43:15.920 all that is that we fund the most of the 0:43:15.960 --> 0:43:18.120 conservation in this country today. I don't think you can 0:43:18.160 --> 0:43:22.560 say you hunt for conservation, but us hunting a byproduct 0:43:22.640 --> 0:43:25.320 of that is funding our state agencies and most of 0:43:25.320 --> 0:43:27.520 the conservation in this country. Yeah. I think that that 0:43:27.840 --> 0:43:34.000 byproduct thing is interesting because um, now that now that 0:43:34.040 --> 0:43:37.520 there's more public awareness among hunters or over around funding 0:43:37.560 --> 0:43:41.960 structures for wildlife management. Um, like there's even this this 0:43:42.360 --> 0:43:47.359 slogan like hunting is conservation, right, Uh, we could say 0:43:47.440 --> 0:43:51.959 like conservation is a like even at its most base level, 0:43:52.080 --> 0:43:56.200 conservation is a by product of hunting. But it doesn't 0:43:56.320 --> 0:43:59.399 necessarily mean that that's one's motivations. And to get into 0:43:59.440 --> 0:44:01.000 that by product thing is I think that that's like 0:44:01.080 --> 0:44:04.720 a little bit of what I imagine happens around quality 0:44:04.760 --> 0:44:07.160 der management, is like people are motivated to do it 0:44:07.160 --> 0:44:09.160 because they want to grow a large white tail on 0:44:09.239 --> 0:44:13.600 their property, and a byproduct of that, like an unintentional 0:44:13.719 --> 0:44:19.759 byproduct of that is probably like perhaps healthier deer hurts. 0:44:20.280 --> 0:44:22.560 I think it's kind of the kin to lots of 0:44:22.560 --> 0:44:25.400 times we'll talk about the natural progression that many hunters 0:44:25.480 --> 0:44:27.200 go through. Right, It's like you just want to figure 0:44:27.200 --> 0:44:28.160 out how to kill a deer, and then you want 0:44:28.160 --> 0:44:29.400 to kill a lot of deer, and then maybe you 0:44:29.480 --> 0:44:31.560 want to hold out for a bigger deer. Many people 0:44:31.600 --> 0:44:33.880 go through that kind of trajectory, not that you have to. 0:44:34.360 --> 0:44:36.520 Then eventually you're you're older and you just want your 0:44:36.600 --> 0:44:38.480 kids to kill a deer, and then you just want 0:44:38.480 --> 0:44:41.000 to see it. So then I think there's something maybe 0:44:41.040 --> 0:44:43.680 a little bit similar to that. As people get introduced 0:44:43.719 --> 0:44:47.279 to QDM, many people, no doubt about to your point, Steve, 0:44:47.400 --> 0:44:49.480 are drawn to it because they want to see bigger deer. 0:44:49.520 --> 0:44:51.279 They've seen it on TV or they've read about, Man, 0:44:51.280 --> 0:44:53.359 it'd be awesome to see deer like that, or two 0:44:53.920 --> 0:44:55.960 experience two big bucks fighting in front of me, Like 0:44:56.040 --> 0:44:57.759 that looks great, but I've never seen it in my 0:44:57.840 --> 0:44:59.759 neck of the woods. And then you find out like 0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:02.200 there's things that I can do here on my back 0:45:02.280 --> 0:45:04.920 forward that might lead to better experiences like that. That 0:45:05.360 --> 0:45:08.400 definitely lures people in. But I have found from my 0:45:08.440 --> 0:45:10.399 own experience and like talking to a lot of people 0:45:10.480 --> 0:45:13.719 that have taking a step into that world and explored it, 0:45:14.840 --> 0:45:18.040 is that many people go in with that initial idea, 0:45:18.520 --> 0:45:21.640 but then realize there's this whole breadth and depth to 0:45:22.120 --> 0:45:24.239 quality deer management. So you get these people that are 0:45:24.280 --> 0:45:27.919 interested in trophy bucks that five years from now though, 0:45:28.160 --> 0:45:31.040 are all of a sudden thinking about quality, the habitat, 0:45:31.200 --> 0:45:33.359 making sure that the dough harvest is in line, making 0:45:33.440 --> 0:45:36.400 sure that age structure and sex ratio and all these 0:45:36.440 --> 0:45:39.360 different things fall in place too. So you're kind of 0:45:39.400 --> 0:45:42.120 getting them in with that candy, that apple. But then 0:45:42.200 --> 0:45:46.640 there's a lot of byproducts benefits that people identify with 0:45:46.920 --> 0:45:49.239 and and follow through in the long term. Yeah, I 0:45:49.320 --> 0:45:52.560 can see that, Like it awakens you to this whole world. Hey, 0:45:52.600 --> 0:45:56.719 what was the what was the you said, two of Americans. Yeah, 0:45:56.800 --> 0:46:00.640 the most current data says that of the in public 0:46:00.880 --> 0:46:03.120 approve of hunting deer in Turkey, and when you go 0:46:03.239 --> 0:46:06.000 into other species like elk and stuff, it drops not 0:46:06.160 --> 0:46:08.600 not significant. We can't drop that much for elk, does it. 0:46:09.040 --> 0:46:11.000 I think it's in a low seventies or something, But 0:46:11.080 --> 0:46:13.719 there is a significant you know. I think it's just 0:46:13.800 --> 0:46:16.080 because you know, deer in Turkey in our backyards and 0:46:16.480 --> 0:46:19.200 you know, I saw a headline this morning that, um, 0:46:19.520 --> 0:46:25.320 seventy five of the people in Britain oppose quote cruel 0:46:25.440 --> 0:46:29.640 trophy hunting. So like you call them up and say, 0:46:30.719 --> 0:46:37.160 do you support cruel trophy hunting? And if that's not 0:46:38.320 --> 0:46:42.359 I want to hear from I don't like to hear 0:46:42.640 --> 0:46:46.560 what the dude. It's like, oh yeah, sure it's cruel, right, 0:46:46.600 --> 0:46:48.799 you sure it's cruel, because if it's cruel, I get 0:46:48.800 --> 0:46:51.560 behind it. We have it, which I think a better 0:46:51.600 --> 0:46:54.680 headline would be like, um, of the people in Britain 0:46:54.719 --> 0:46:59.120 are sadistic. We have the same data though, Um, you know, 0:46:59.280 --> 0:47:03.160 before this it was always at seventy percent of Americans 0:47:03.200 --> 0:47:05.520 have proved hunting for food. If you put trophy in 0:47:05.600 --> 0:47:09.759 that question. Yeah, what do you think that means? The people? 0:47:09.800 --> 0:47:11.000 I mean, I got all kinds of ideas of what 0:47:11.040 --> 0:47:12.319 it means. I think that they mean. I think they 0:47:12.400 --> 0:47:14.680 think it means that you didn't eat it. Yeah, yeah, 0:47:14.680 --> 0:47:18.560 I think there's all kinds of negative connotations. It's it's 0:47:18.680 --> 0:47:20.880 kind of ah, We've talked about the thousand time of song. 0:47:20.920 --> 0:47:23.440 I want to get into it, but it's pretty um 0:47:24.520 --> 0:47:27.600 that word needs a higher a pr agency. Well, I 0:47:27.640 --> 0:47:29.840 think it's important also point out is what you're seeing 0:47:30.040 --> 0:47:32.520 on a lot of the hunting shows is trophy deer management. 0:47:32.600 --> 0:47:34.719 And we of course kind of taught a lot of 0:47:34.760 --> 0:47:36.960 people the science of quality deer management and they took 0:47:37.000 --> 0:47:39.720 it a step further, and so we are all ignored 0:47:39.760 --> 0:47:43.640 other parts exactly, and so we are we're often viewed 0:47:43.680 --> 0:47:47.400 as like trophy deer preachers, but it's not. It's people 0:47:47.440 --> 0:47:50.520 have taken our stuff further than we you know, our 0:47:50.600 --> 0:47:53.040 guidelines and and if that's what they want to do, 0:47:53.239 --> 0:47:56.400 all power to them, but we're not slowly about that. 0:47:56.719 --> 0:47:58.920 You know, there is a traditional dear management of quality 0:47:58.960 --> 0:48:02.200 deer management and what trophy deer management. So you feel 0:48:02.239 --> 0:48:05.279 like you've got the lessons from your organization, where um, 0:48:05.560 --> 0:48:08.040 there's like a radical fringe who took the lessons from 0:48:08.040 --> 0:48:12.040 your organization and went off off campus. And how would 0:48:12.080 --> 0:48:14.960 one do that? Trophy deer management, Yeah, a lot of it. 0:48:15.120 --> 0:48:17.320 Where does one end and the other one? So trophy 0:48:17.360 --> 0:48:22.160 management is where um, there are some similarities in that 0:48:22.320 --> 0:48:25.840 you're trying to um do the same three principles, but 0:48:25.920 --> 0:48:29.000 where where you take it the next for the three 0:48:29.360 --> 0:48:32.680 balance a deer her within the habitat, have a balance 0:48:32.719 --> 0:48:37.080 sex ratio, and have deer in all age classes for 0:48:37.160 --> 0:48:40.680 both males and females. It's hard to argue those three principles, Yeah, 0:48:40.880 --> 0:48:45.640 you can't. Trophy management is keep keep deer within where 0:48:45.680 --> 0:48:48.600 the habitat can sport in fact exceed nutrition, so that 0:48:48.719 --> 0:48:52.719 each individual animal has excess nutrition, not just we try 0:48:52.800 --> 0:48:56.120 to optimize it with q d M where there's maximum 0:48:56.239 --> 0:49:00.080 hunting recreational opportunities where hunters get to see deer but 0:49:00.160 --> 0:49:03.520 they also get to shoot deer. Um. With trophy management, 0:49:03.520 --> 0:49:06.279 you're pushing deer populations to a point where there's lots 0:49:06.320 --> 0:49:09.160 of deer out there, but they still have lots of food. Um. 0:49:09.520 --> 0:49:13.520 You're also protecting bucks until they are at the maximum 0:49:13.680 --> 0:49:17.560 size of antler growth, which research shows is anywhere between 0:49:17.640 --> 0:49:20.200 five and seven years of age. All we say is 0:49:20.280 --> 0:49:24.480 past year links two and older is up for game 0:49:24.880 --> 0:49:28.719 where necessary. There's a lot of places in this country now. 0:49:29.400 --> 0:49:32.560 In um our latest White Tie Report, we have statistics 0:49:32.600 --> 0:49:35.240 tracking the percent of yearling bucks in the national harvest 0:49:35.800 --> 0:49:40.400 and eight when we were formed, it was close to 0:49:41.480 --> 0:49:45.040 sixty five of all bucks in the United States were 0:49:45.080 --> 0:49:48.399 one and a half in the harvest, and fast forward 0:49:48.400 --> 0:49:56.120 today it's about thirty and it drop. That's just and 0:49:56.800 --> 0:49:59.800 that's the box that could kill in this country or 0:49:59.800 --> 0:50:01.520 one of to have your yeah and you kind of 0:50:01.600 --> 0:50:03.480 can put up the mission accomplished sign. And in a 0:50:03.560 --> 0:50:05.640 lot of areas where there are deer that are now 0:50:06.080 --> 0:50:08.840 in all age classes, you don't need to protect the 0:50:08.920 --> 0:50:13.279 youngest age class anymore because by volunteerism, people shoot what 0:50:13.360 --> 0:50:16.719 they want and they're represented. Some people will shoot small 0:50:16.760 --> 0:50:18.719 deer and young deer. Some people will shoot older dear. 0:50:18.719 --> 0:50:21.120 You don't have to protect the youngest age class at 0:50:21.200 --> 0:50:27.960 all stages. It's only when it's imbalanced. Um so trophy 0:50:28.040 --> 0:50:32.520 management is pushing bucks until they're at least five or older. 0:50:33.320 --> 0:50:36.719 That's not quality deer management that's pushing deer intil. That's 0:50:36.760 --> 0:50:39.000 where they have their largest set of antlers is between 0:50:39.080 --> 0:50:41.520 five and seven. There's multiple research that shows those are 0:50:41.520 --> 0:50:44.920 the ages where they hit the largest size. And then 0:50:45.719 --> 0:50:48.640 for the sex ratio part, it's you would actually want 0:50:48.640 --> 0:50:50.759 to skew it a little bit and have it more 0:50:50.880 --> 0:50:54.040 males to females to make sure you meet that habitat requirement. 0:50:54.840 --> 0:50:57.200 Let's say there's a Let's say there's a fellow hypothetically 0:50:58.080 --> 0:51:04.960 and he manages a large ranch and he builds a 0:51:05.040 --> 0:51:08.440 dossier on all the deer that lived there as much 0:51:08.480 --> 0:51:13.400 as you can um and has candidates that he's selected 0:51:15.080 --> 0:51:20.520 for eventual harvest. And in order to not stress those 0:51:20.640 --> 0:51:24.440 bucks kills all that they kill, kills, all the books 0:51:24.480 --> 0:51:29.279 he can that aren't in the in the candidates for 0:51:29.440 --> 0:51:34.759 future harvest. With the end goal of every year he 0:51:34.920 --> 0:51:38.560 makes two giants and then he's got two giants coming 0:51:38.680 --> 0:51:41.280 up and then little ones that he's eyeball and based 0:51:41.360 --> 0:51:46.360 on whatever to to get him up through. What's that 0:51:46.800 --> 0:51:54.560 trophy management that's not cutem What what's he doing wrong? Well, 0:51:54.600 --> 0:51:56.759 I mean not wrong, but what what would acute like? 0:51:56.840 --> 0:51:58.840 What would be the difference there he's just taking it 0:51:58.920 --> 0:52:04.680 to an extreme. I mean it's intensive management that's biologically 0:52:04.760 --> 0:52:08.560 that the land is still healthy. So there's there's a 0:52:08.680 --> 0:52:11.759 lot of positive still happening with that. It's just is 0:52:11.840 --> 0:52:16.920 there a negative. It may be loss of opportunity for 0:52:17.040 --> 0:52:22.240 some folks, Yeah, but I can like an ecological negative. No, Nope. 0:52:22.560 --> 0:52:25.640 Often they're actually overharvesting those because I mean, these old 0:52:25.719 --> 0:52:27.640 bucks they don't want to be pestered by young deer. 0:52:28.000 --> 0:52:30.040 You know, if you if you create a void, that's 0:52:30.080 --> 0:52:33.400 where these old secluded bucks will will pull up. And 0:52:34.160 --> 0:52:35.880 you know, we're we're finding a lot from the research 0:52:36.000 --> 0:52:38.640 that you know, the bucks that live longer don't travel 0:52:38.719 --> 0:52:41.800 as much. They might not be prolific breeders. You know, 0:52:41.920 --> 0:52:44.319 the deer get in trouble when they walk across roads, 0:52:44.360 --> 0:52:46.239 are in front of our stands and stuff like that. 0:52:46.360 --> 0:52:49.120 So kind of these homebodies are the ones that are 0:52:49.160 --> 0:52:52.920 surviving um and especially to these super old age books 0:52:53.400 --> 0:52:56.600 that's also been shown site fidelity or their likelihood to 0:52:56.680 --> 0:53:00.480 be in the same place and also have home ranges 0:53:00.520 --> 0:53:02.520 that shrink goes with age, So as a as a 0:53:02.600 --> 0:53:07.320 buck ages, their home range doesn't expand they actually shrink, like, 0:53:07.600 --> 0:53:10.960 is he most likely to be most uh ones the 0:53:11.000 --> 0:53:13.799 deer most likely to wander the most in the fall 0:53:13.920 --> 0:53:18.359 and in and oh yeah, definitely in the younger age 0:53:18.360 --> 0:53:21.960 classes they move around more. Yeah they there, they will 0:53:22.120 --> 0:53:25.120 every year they will. Their home range and core area 0:53:25.239 --> 0:53:27.680 shrinks a little bit. And there's research out there. I 0:53:27.719 --> 0:53:29.640 think it was done on the King's Ranch. Right, Um, 0:53:30.280 --> 0:53:31.960 two and a half year old age class did most 0:53:32.000 --> 0:53:35.680 of the breeding. Even the year and a half old 0:53:35.719 --> 0:53:37.800 age class will still make up. Even in a trophy 0:53:37.840 --> 0:53:41.319 management situation where you're pushing dear into extreme, you're still 0:53:41.360 --> 0:53:43.880 gonna have yearling bucks out there, and they still contribute 0:53:43.920 --> 0:53:47.800 about a third of the breeding to uh, the general population. 0:53:48.200 --> 0:53:50.439 You can't stim me stymy that to the point where 0:53:50.440 --> 0:53:53.440 they're not part of it. So the doll like so 0:53:53.560 --> 0:53:55.359 the dolls even was a big buck around the dolls. 0:53:55.520 --> 0:53:58.760 Let the dolls, let little bucks breed them. And sometimes 0:53:58.800 --> 0:54:03.440 it's multiple paternity. There's been cases where twins or triplets 0:54:03.800 --> 0:54:07.120 have different fathers sored a bout different fathers. How many 0:54:07.320 --> 0:54:10.600 how many bucks might have dough breed I believe or not. 0:54:10.719 --> 0:54:13.560 That's also been done in Texas. Um, how many will 0:54:13.640 --> 0:54:17.680 he breed. Don't know how many bocks will one dough 0:54:18.360 --> 0:54:22.480 have sex with? Uh, they will, they will in a 0:54:22.640 --> 0:54:24.920 in a in a cycle, and they will cycle. They 0:54:24.960 --> 0:54:28.759 will do it until she her extrius ends, so it 0:54:28.760 --> 0:54:32.400 could potentially be multiple times. No, but how like, has 0:54:32.440 --> 0:54:35.920 any ever paid attention to how many different bucks bread 0:54:36.080 --> 0:54:39.320 and individual dough. I don't know the record on that, 0:54:39.440 --> 0:54:41.759 but it's been at least three or four at least 0:54:41.760 --> 0:54:44.000 three or four. Yeah, because there's that those cases of 0:54:44.040 --> 0:54:47.640 triplets having three different fathers. I think it's of all 0:54:47.719 --> 0:54:50.680 twins have different fathers, and I have twins, and that 0:54:50.840 --> 0:54:54.920 was one of the first things he told me. You 0:54:55.000 --> 0:54:58.799 know that twins are sorry about different fathers, right, Okay, 0:54:58.880 --> 0:55:03.840 So when you see a dough with two fawns, of 0:55:03.920 --> 0:55:10.080 those pairs of fawns have different fathers, they're they're like 0:55:10.600 --> 0:55:14.240 half brothers and sisters. Yes, Now what about the opposite? 0:55:15.320 --> 0:55:18.480 How many different does might a single buck breeding a 0:55:18.560 --> 0:55:21.719 given fall? Has that been looked at? Yeah? So that 0:55:22.120 --> 0:55:25.120 and again not necessarily breeding occurrences, but in terms of 0:55:25.239 --> 0:55:29.200 contribution to the general population um out of Texas, Randy 0:55:29.239 --> 0:55:31.839 DeYoung at of Texas and m Kingsville did some really 0:55:31.920 --> 0:55:35.040 interesting research that showed that at least on the scale 0:55:35.080 --> 0:55:37.680 that they were operating, and it's a free range population, 0:55:38.200 --> 0:55:42.040 that the average buck sired no more than two or 0:55:42.200 --> 0:55:46.080 three fawns that made it to adulthood in their life, 0:55:47.800 --> 0:55:49.840 in their life, in their life. Because that would be 0:55:49.920 --> 0:55:53.239 that that would be like replacement. Yeah, you know, that'd 0:55:53.239 --> 0:55:55.440 be like enough to sustain a population. But again, you 0:55:55.760 --> 0:55:59.200 you think about the misconceptions or myths that hunters were 0:55:59.239 --> 0:56:03.200 taught years ago, was that bucks would have home ranges 0:56:03.280 --> 0:56:06.799 that would uh you know, expand every year into every 0:56:06.920 --> 0:56:09.400 until they were the king of the forest. Um, they 0:56:09.440 --> 0:56:12.480 would hair them up their dos much like elk, and 0:56:12.600 --> 0:56:16.360 that they were contributing the biggest antler bucks were just 0:56:16.480 --> 0:56:19.160 pumping out lots of offspring and that's how you get 0:56:19.200 --> 0:56:24.239 all these other older bucks. Yeah, yeah, he's gonna walk 0:56:24.320 --> 0:56:28.799 over the Yeah that's not the case. But there has 0:56:28.840 --> 0:56:31.640 been some advantage of being a big buck. Well, wasn't 0:56:31.680 --> 0:56:34.719 there some research that showed that large antlers were a 0:56:34.840 --> 0:56:38.440 sexual chosen They were chosen for a little bit, they 0:56:38.480 --> 0:56:40.040 were selected for a little bit more by dose. And 0:56:40.120 --> 0:56:41.440 that was just a couple of years ago. They were 0:56:41.480 --> 0:56:44.920 at our convention actually they were those in a pen 0:56:45.000 --> 0:56:47.600 would actually there were different bucks sectioned off in a 0:56:47.680 --> 0:56:49.759 pen with different sized antlers, and the does would pick 0:56:49.800 --> 0:56:52.239 which one they had to make with. Yeah. The Mississippi State, 0:56:52.480 --> 0:56:55.279 uh Dan Marina I think his last name was, did 0:56:55.320 --> 0:56:58.520 a study where they actually were able to use captive deer. 0:56:59.160 --> 0:57:02.880 They cut they're antlers off once hard and secured a 0:57:03.360 --> 0:57:05.960 attachment to the bottom of the antlers so that they 0:57:06.000 --> 0:57:09.719 could swap antlers out from individual bucks so they could 0:57:09.760 --> 0:57:13.439 make that buck who was big small and that buck 0:57:13.480 --> 0:57:16.760 who was small big antler wise, and would pair them 0:57:16.840 --> 0:57:20.880 with receptive dos, and the doughs generally chose bucks with 0:57:21.000 --> 0:57:30.680 larger antlers. Shellow Man, Yeah, Shellow really, Yeah, that's really fascinating. 0:57:31.160 --> 0:57:33.280 That's a good idea for a study. It was cool. 0:57:33.440 --> 0:57:35.840 It was really cool. Then they had the does were 0:57:35.920 --> 0:57:38.320 pinned up and they would literally like back themselves into 0:57:38.600 --> 0:57:41.120 in front of the buck of their choosing. It was 0:57:41.160 --> 0:57:45.320 really cool. I mean from that perspective. No, that's fascinating, man, 0:57:45.400 --> 0:57:48.080 that's a good idea. This is Hank mentioned it earlier. 0:57:48.120 --> 0:57:51.400 I mean that's really fun stuff like that. Yeah, we've 0:57:51.440 --> 0:57:55.120 been really concentrating again the big issues and what Our 0:57:55.560 --> 0:57:58.920 vision is what's the biggest uh, you know crises that 0:57:58.960 --> 0:58:02.120 are happening with deer and and hunting and conservation is 0:58:02.160 --> 0:58:03.480 we're trying to shift a lot of that and we 0:58:03.560 --> 0:58:06.720 are towards chronic wasting disease. But we have funded a 0:58:06.760 --> 0:58:10.840 lot of research on habitat management, teaching people, UM things 0:58:10.920 --> 0:58:15.400 on fire forest management. UM. This latest magazine has a 0:58:15.440 --> 0:58:18.560 really cool study in there out of Tennessee looking about 0:58:18.760 --> 0:58:20.560 you know a lot of people think if you fertilize 0:58:20.600 --> 0:58:24.840 oak trees, they're gonna make more acorns. Uh. That's when 0:58:24.880 --> 0:58:28.120 a that's not true. So we found Yeah, we funded 0:58:28.120 --> 0:58:30.680 a lot of research. Hank mentioned it earlier that you know, 0:58:30.840 --> 0:58:34.640 think of us broader wildlife implications all of that and uh, 0:58:35.400 --> 0:58:38.360 hunters working together cooperatives. There's a really cool study that's 0:58:38.480 --> 0:58:41.000 going to be published soon about when you get neighbors 0:58:41.040 --> 0:58:43.800 working together and form cooperatives, which are huge in Michigan, 0:58:44.280 --> 0:58:48.880 UM in Texas and many other places. The conservation of 0:58:48.920 --> 0:58:53.120 biodiversity that happens at the landscape scale is better and 0:58:53.360 --> 0:58:56.920 more intensive than places where people are not working together. UM. 0:58:57.000 --> 0:59:01.200 So that landscape level management, what's the cooperative look like? Uh? 0:59:01.280 --> 0:59:04.040 The average cooperative in the country is probably about fire 0:59:04.160 --> 0:59:07.400 acres and where between five and ten land owners working together, 0:59:07.560 --> 0:59:09.800 but it varies. There's ones out there that are hundred 0:59:09.840 --> 0:59:12.880 thousand acres with hundreds of landowners and it's a bunch 0:59:12.880 --> 0:59:14.640 of mugs who all agree to like a certain set 0:59:14.680 --> 0:59:18.960 of principles. Yeah, they met preseason and say, uh, you 0:59:19.080 --> 0:59:21.920 hunt your place, I'll hunt mine. But let's all agree 0:59:21.960 --> 0:59:23.640 to do this and we'll meet up next year and 0:59:23.680 --> 0:59:29.040 see how things are going. In Michigan today. These are formal, Uh, 0:59:29.120 --> 0:59:31.680 they don't have to be. It could be as simple 0:59:31.720 --> 0:59:34.040 as that. Erators we have some they're much more complicated. 0:59:34.480 --> 0:59:37.600 They meet, you know, quarterly even, but just some sort 0:59:37.600 --> 0:59:40.680 of immigram. But the important part is that I guess 0:59:40.720 --> 0:59:43.120 the successful ones you don't punish anybody. I mean you, 0:59:43.280 --> 0:59:44.720 you're part of a really good co ops. So you 0:59:44.760 --> 0:59:47.400 can just speak to that how yours works well at 0:59:47.440 --> 0:59:49.920 a at a kind of a scale in Michigan. Just 0:59:49.960 --> 0:59:51.760 to give you an idea of how popular they are. 0:59:52.400 --> 0:59:55.800 UM Michigan, there's an organization there that we partner with 0:59:55.920 --> 1:00:00.240 called the Michigan Michigan United Conservation Clubs. We I used 1:00:00.240 --> 1:00:04.000 to be a member of that when I lived there, because, uh, 1:00:04.520 --> 1:00:07.720 to sell for at the Ravana for auction, you had 1:00:07.760 --> 1:00:10.440 to be a member of Michigan Trappers Association, and if 1:00:10.480 --> 1:00:15.880 you remember Michigan Trappers Association, by default you were a 1:00:16.040 --> 1:00:18.600 member of muc C. And then you got the MUCC 1:00:18.760 --> 1:00:24.040 publication Michigan out of Doors, right, not outdoors but out 1:00:24.080 --> 1:00:27.240 of doors. Out of doors a good magazine. Man TV 1:00:27.320 --> 1:00:30.520 show like that too, there, Fred Trolls TV show. I 1:00:30.600 --> 1:00:32.680 believe that was Freends. Yeah, he was ahead of his 1:00:32.720 --> 1:00:36.280 time man, because you'd have a wild game segment. Kid. 1:00:36.360 --> 1:00:39.080 He always liked everything people made. He was never like dah, 1:00:39.920 --> 1:00:44.320 tastes like shit. He always like that's great. He seemed nice. Yeah, 1:00:44.360 --> 1:00:48.040 and he would get dear ras and to count the 1:00:48.080 --> 1:00:50.000 antlers if he could hang his wedding ring on it, 1:00:50.520 --> 1:00:54.480 they counted there. And he was running a metal ring nowadays, 1:00:55.280 --> 1:00:57.040 if he had a silicon ring, you have a lot 1:00:57.120 --> 1:01:00.200 more antlers on deer, yeah, a lot a lot of 1:01:00.200 --> 1:01:02.160 our points. You han't has some bitch on anything, man, 1:01:02.600 --> 1:01:04.440 but a metal ring was hard to hang on a 1:01:04.480 --> 1:01:06.240 little degger you have, he'd have a lot of thirty 1:01:06.320 --> 1:01:13.240 forty pointers coming off. But okay, Mucca said, I took 1:01:13.240 --> 1:01:16.000 a little trip on memory lane there. Man, that's okay. Uh, 1:01:16.080 --> 1:01:19.240 we have there's a person that works that's uh an 1:01:19.360 --> 1:01:22.160 m UCC employee, but q d M a pheasants forever 1:01:22.280 --> 1:01:24.160 we all fun part of that person's sality that works 1:01:24.240 --> 1:01:29.360 with cooperatives. And today there's over acres in Michigan in 1:01:29.800 --> 1:01:32.920 private landowner cooperatives in that state, which now exceeds actually 1:01:33.360 --> 1:01:38.200 more than what the state game area. Uh yeah, Now 1:01:38.280 --> 1:01:40.400 what are some of the tenants Like, let's just say 1:01:40.440 --> 1:01:43.040 you took some average cooperative So it's okay, Just just 1:01:43.120 --> 1:01:46.000 people understand we're talking about a bunch of different properties. 1:01:46.280 --> 1:01:50.240 They all border each other. Um that forms this contiguous 1:01:50.280 --> 1:01:52.040 block land. It doesn't have to be and it's like 1:01:52.560 --> 1:01:54.440 it doesn't have to be continued. It could be a 1:01:54.520 --> 1:01:58.200 hot like a checkerboard. Checkerboard. Now, a cooperative doesn't mean 1:01:58.560 --> 1:02:01.200 that you all get to go ever you want. You 1:02:01.320 --> 1:02:03.920 hunt your own place, but you hunt under certain guidelines. 1:02:04.520 --> 1:02:06.360 We will be an example of some of the guidelines. 1:02:06.360 --> 1:02:08.120 They hunt like we're all going to agree to shoot 1:02:08.120 --> 1:02:10.880 a shipload of dolls that would be one yeah, or 1:02:10.920 --> 1:02:12.800 we're all gonna pass yearling Bucks if they want to 1:02:12.840 --> 1:02:16.040 grow bucks and older age classes or and sometimes they 1:02:16.080 --> 1:02:19.880 advance that and individual properties go higher than others. UM 1:02:20.000 --> 1:02:25.520 certainly habitat management, coordinating habitat management, or even purchasing equipment 1:02:25.600 --> 1:02:28.640 together so they can get price deals on things because 1:02:28.680 --> 1:02:34.280 they're all in it together. Fertilizer, and then and then 1:02:34.360 --> 1:02:37.880 sharing information during the season after I found personally from 1:02:37.920 --> 1:02:42.000 being involved with some loose type cooperatives, UM, just the 1:02:42.880 --> 1:02:45.240 you kind of get the deer camp effect but expanded, 1:02:45.360 --> 1:02:47.440 and I have multiple people that are sharing stories. I 1:02:47.560 --> 1:02:49.560 saw this buck, I saw that one too, and after 1:02:49.640 --> 1:02:52.320 this season you kind of know what happened to different 1:02:52.400 --> 1:02:54.800 degree might have seen or there's other folks to help 1:02:54.880 --> 1:02:56.840 you get in there and track a deer down and 1:02:57.120 --> 1:02:59.720 then like oh I found this deer shed or I mean, 1:02:59.760 --> 1:03:02.240 it just builds that community effects. So there's benefits both 1:03:02.320 --> 1:03:07.000 socially and ecologically. But everybody's still gaming for sure. There's 1:03:07.000 --> 1:03:09.520 still everyone's got their own self serving sides to like, 1:03:09.600 --> 1:03:11.360 you know, you couldn't say to one dude, like we've 1:03:11.440 --> 1:03:18.240 decided that your place is the sanctuary. He's like, oh man, 1:03:21.360 --> 1:03:23.920 that's pretty cool though, And they don't need there's no 1:03:24.040 --> 1:03:26.520 they don't formalize it, but people will help them organize it. Yeah, 1:03:26.560 --> 1:03:28.640 we have employees in other states that do the same thing. 1:03:28.720 --> 1:03:32.000 In Alabama, we work with Alabama Wildlife Federation have employed there. 1:03:32.040 --> 1:03:35.120 We got two guys in Missouri that are co funded 1:03:35.120 --> 1:03:37.680 with the Missouri Department Conservation. They pay part of the salary, 1:03:37.720 --> 1:03:39.720 We pay part of the salary. But that's their their jobs. 1:03:39.920 --> 1:03:42.600 And you say you see increased biodiversity, about what measure 1:03:44.040 --> 1:03:46.720 It's a thesis that hasn't been published yet, but looking 1:03:47.280 --> 1:03:51.800 at digitizing those properties and looking at the the UM 1:03:52.520 --> 1:03:58.320 delineation basically the straight line of where different habitat types 1:03:58.520 --> 1:04:02.080 meat or those vegetation type will meet, and looking at 1:04:02.200 --> 1:04:05.280 nearby properties of similar scale and seeing if the diversity 1:04:05.320 --> 1:04:07.840 at least from the sky um is the same, and 1:04:07.880 --> 1:04:11.720 then asking the hunters that hunt those co ops questions 1:04:11.760 --> 1:04:15.320 about satisfaction. That's also been shown UM in Michigan. There's 1:04:15.320 --> 1:04:18.680 a published study that shows uh, generally, hunters that hunt 1:04:18.720 --> 1:04:23.600 in those situations have higher satisfaction up to like, whereas 1:04:23.880 --> 1:04:26.320 hunters that are just hunting their own place is not 1:04:26.440 --> 1:04:29.360 working with their neighbors are generally satisfied with the way 1:04:29.440 --> 1:04:32.560 that things are going in their state. So and one 1:04:32.600 --> 1:04:35.920 of the strongest things that's kind of an unofficial byproduct 1:04:36.000 --> 1:04:39.439 of them is state agencies being able to communicate something 1:04:39.520 --> 1:04:42.400 super effectively to a lot of landowners quickly. And in 1:04:42.520 --> 1:04:45.880 Michigan is a perfect example. When c W D hit 1:04:46.440 --> 1:04:51.160 in Michigan, um the the Michigan DNR was able to 1:04:51.440 --> 1:04:55.160 communicate with all of these private landowners basically through this 1:04:55.280 --> 1:04:59.280 one employee and her contacts with all of those leaders 1:04:59.320 --> 1:05:02.240 of those colors where they needed sampling, where they needed 1:05:02.280 --> 1:05:05.360 to do town hall meetings. And they could have done 1:05:05.400 --> 1:05:09.040 that equally but not as efficiently by just doing them 1:05:09.200 --> 1:05:11.520 in public places and announcing them. They were able to 1:05:11.560 --> 1:05:15.600 go and target certain places and uh collect more samples 1:05:15.640 --> 1:05:19.960 that way too. The biodiversity thing on managed properties, I 1:05:19.960 --> 1:05:23.680 think that's something people don't really understand well, where people 1:05:23.720 --> 1:05:25.560 manage for wild like you know, you can say like 1:05:25.640 --> 1:05:27.360 I managed for deer, but in some ways you're managing 1:05:27.400 --> 1:05:29.880 for wildlife. Earlier I mentioned a friend of mine from 1:05:29.880 --> 1:05:32.520 back home, Tim's eln rust. He's got he's got not 1:05:32.560 --> 1:05:35.400 a small property like by Western stands would be small. 1:05:35.480 --> 1:05:38.480 He's got a property he manages for deer. You go 1:05:38.560 --> 1:05:43.280 out there in the wintertime. It's unbelievable. The amount of 1:05:43.400 --> 1:05:52.480 bird life, rabbits, squirrels, birds, deer, bobcats, like, it's unbelievable. 1:05:52.880 --> 1:05:54.320 This is an area that's not like that, Like a 1:05:54.520 --> 1:05:57.920 a lot of this area's managed from maximum yield, maximum 1:05:58.000 --> 1:06:00.480 egg yield, or it's just getting developed. We have that 1:06:00.640 --> 1:06:02.960 and it's all disturbed. It's all disturbed like in that area. 1:06:02.960 --> 1:06:06.080 It's all disturbed landscapes. There's no like like it's it's 1:06:06.120 --> 1:06:10.440 a fiction to think that there's like a pristine right. 1:06:10.480 --> 1:06:12.880 This is like West Michigan, man. I mean people have 1:06:12.960 --> 1:06:17.000 been there and everything. There's no old growth timber anywhere. 1:06:17.120 --> 1:06:21.520 Everything's been disturbed. Virtually, everything's been killed at some point. Absolutely, 1:06:21.520 --> 1:06:26.160 everyone logged multiple times. There's no there's nothing like natural 1:06:27.240 --> 1:06:31.440 um isn't a thing there because you're not having like 1:06:31.560 --> 1:06:34.640 six you're not like forests aren't going through natural succession, 1:06:34.680 --> 1:06:36.640 you know what I'm saying. So he would like he 1:06:36.920 --> 1:06:38.760 to go in and take a piece of ground and 1:06:38.960 --> 1:06:41.520 I'm gonna do wildlife on this piece of ground, Dude, 1:06:41.840 --> 1:06:44.000 Like you can. You could go in there with a 1:06:44.080 --> 1:06:46.840 blindfold on and just listen. You'd be like, there's something different. 1:06:46.880 --> 1:06:49.640 About this point Ryan just mentioned, we actually did some research. 1:06:49.720 --> 1:06:52.640 There was ten at least years ago, but University of 1:06:52.680 --> 1:06:55.880 Georgia did a study that we funded where they went 1:06:55.960 --> 1:06:59.080 to properties that had been doing dear management and specifically 1:06:59.160 --> 1:07:01.400 had been putting in and food plots because we wanted 1:07:01.440 --> 1:07:05.800 to see the impact of food plots in forested environments 1:07:06.360 --> 1:07:11.200 and did small mammal trapping and bird surveys and found 1:07:11.280 --> 1:07:14.439 that within a buffer zone around food plots where they're 1:07:14.480 --> 1:07:16.600 punching holes in the forest canopy and putting a food 1:07:16.600 --> 1:07:19.240 plot in where their hadn't been, that there was higher 1:07:19.400 --> 1:07:22.760 species bio diversity in those areas compared to places that 1:07:22.840 --> 1:07:26.360 were just open or forested and not had been changed 1:07:26.920 --> 1:07:30.600 because the amount of how how very the area is. Yeah, 1:07:30.800 --> 1:07:35.320 he's got like he's got thickets, you know, hinge cut 1:07:35.440 --> 1:07:39.560 trees for betting areas. He's got food plots around, he's 1:07:39.600 --> 1:07:43.800 done water stuff, and it's like this big mosaic of 1:07:44.040 --> 1:07:48.960 all these different kinds of you know, hiding areas, feeding areas, trapped. 1:07:49.080 --> 1:07:52.080 Like he pays attention to travel corridors, allowing things to 1:07:52.120 --> 1:07:54.200 move around, and my god, does it make a difference. 1:07:54.240 --> 1:07:57.439 One of the biggest components. That's missing is you either 1:07:57.560 --> 1:08:01.920 have straight uh just land that's agg or you have 1:08:02.080 --> 1:08:04.880 forests that are overmature and they go through those stages 1:08:04.920 --> 1:08:09.400 of succession and those earlier succession young forest stages that 1:08:09.880 --> 1:08:12.480 we call him a seer uh serial stage one and 1:08:12.560 --> 1:08:17.000 two and a little bit of three is what is 1:08:17.200 --> 1:08:20.320 declining throughout a lot of the country where we're not 1:08:20.439 --> 1:08:24.200 letting those things kind of revert because once they start happening, 1:08:24.240 --> 1:08:25.840 you get kind of the hair standing up in the 1:08:25.880 --> 1:08:27.360 back of your neck, and people want to want to 1:08:27.400 --> 1:08:28.760 do it. They want to clean it up, they want 1:08:28.760 --> 1:08:30.880 to bushog it, they want to make it look like 1:08:31.000 --> 1:08:35.160 something that we visualize as nice and neat and clean. 1:08:36.040 --> 1:08:39.040 And there. You know, there's a lot of generalist wildlife 1:08:39.080 --> 1:08:41.000 out there. Deer one of them. They do well in cities, 1:08:41.040 --> 1:08:44.599 they do and well in grasslands and forests. They live everywhere. 1:08:44.960 --> 1:08:48.000 But there's a lot of species of animals that are 1:08:48.120 --> 1:08:54.360 niche specific, that rely on very specific stages of succession. 1:08:55.040 --> 1:08:57.880 Like you wouldn't expect to find a gray squirrel, which 1:08:57.960 --> 1:09:00.240 relies on forests in the middle of a grass fland 1:09:00.280 --> 1:09:03.200 savannah because they wouldn't be there, and you wouldn't find 1:09:03.280 --> 1:09:05.880 an Eastern meadow lark in the middle of the forest 1:09:05.880 --> 1:09:10.360 because they like grasses. So that was younger forest succession 1:09:10.479 --> 1:09:13.840 stages where you have thickets and young trees coming in 1:09:14.560 --> 1:09:21.080 um hosts a very wide birth of animals, and a 1:09:21.160 --> 1:09:24.519 lot of deer hunters are getting involved in programs like 1:09:24.600 --> 1:09:27.200 CRP or their hinge cutting, or they're doing something because 1:09:27.200 --> 1:09:29.519 they want to hold deer on their properties. There's a 1:09:29.560 --> 1:09:32.040 lot of food benefits to not just cover and that's 1:09:32.040 --> 1:09:35.320 why you're seeing the response from animals like that, and 1:09:35.360 --> 1:09:37.720 that's that's a byproduct of hunting. The hunters are trying 1:09:37.760 --> 1:09:40.280 to do that for deer, but you're seeing the response 1:09:40.320 --> 1:09:44.000 in other ways. Yeah, it gets into the this thing 1:09:44.080 --> 1:09:47.720 we got earlier, like the intended and unintended consequences, or 1:09:48.000 --> 1:09:51.400 it gets into this idea that that someone enters into 1:09:51.439 --> 1:09:55.600 that motivated by something that might be regarded as fairly superficial, 1:09:55.760 --> 1:09:58.479 meaning man, I wish I could have a big buck 1:09:58.520 --> 1:10:01.840 on my farm, and then a decade down the road 1:10:02.600 --> 1:10:04.800 you have these other sets of realizations about what you've 1:10:04.880 --> 1:10:08.640 kind of accomplished from a wildlife perspective, and that you 1:10:08.840 --> 1:10:11.800 like create some kind of menagerie. Yeah, And that's what 1:10:12.600 --> 1:10:14.240 I was saying earlier, is that you get a lot 1:10:14.320 --> 1:10:16.680 of guys and gals that get involved in it for 1:10:16.760 --> 1:10:19.519 the first first reason, but then they realize how much, 1:10:20.240 --> 1:10:22.240 you know, how much they enjoy the other part of it. 1:10:22.720 --> 1:10:27.840 That that getting dirt on your fingernails and doing something 1:10:27.920 --> 1:10:31.519 and watching wildlife respond. It's it's a it's an extremely 1:10:31.600 --> 1:10:35.160 satisfying thing to do. You guys have been involved in 1:10:36.200 --> 1:10:37.680 maybe I'm wrong, and I I don't think I am. 1:10:37.840 --> 1:10:44.520 You've been involved in promoting UH states putting up antly restrictions. 1:10:46.479 --> 1:10:48.880 Talk about that a little bit, like what kind of 1:10:48.960 --> 1:10:51.720 what the pros and cons are? What the public perception 1:10:51.920 --> 1:10:54.960 of that is? Why do some people? You know, why 1:10:55.040 --> 1:10:57.040 would one support it? And why would one not like it? 1:10:57.200 --> 1:11:02.479 All Right, so we have a a policy on Antler 1:11:02.520 --> 1:11:05.599 restrictions where we want them to pass a three part 1:11:05.680 --> 1:11:08.719 test in our eyes before we would support anything remotely 1:11:08.800 --> 1:11:11.920 close to that. The first would be, um, is it 1:11:12.000 --> 1:11:15.960 biologically needed? You do? You might explain Antler restrictions, no problem. 1:11:16.000 --> 1:11:20.240 An restrictions are a tool that that state agencies or 1:11:20.320 --> 1:11:22.760 private land managers will use. Let's talk about just like 1:11:22.800 --> 1:11:26.760 government level state agency level to move dear into older 1:11:26.800 --> 1:11:32.240 age classes, they can be UM something that would be 1:11:32.400 --> 1:11:35.360 selective and harvest, where you're saying only deer of a 1:11:35.400 --> 1:11:39.840 certain characteristic will be able to be shot. Point restrictions, 1:11:40.360 --> 1:11:43.120 so if a deer has so many points, spread restrictions, 1:11:43.160 --> 1:11:45.439 if it's antlers are so wide or why, or you 1:11:45.520 --> 1:11:49.200 can shoot them. Um. Sometimes there's combination approaches. Sometimes it's 1:11:49.400 --> 1:11:51.680 if they're antler beam lengths are long enough and you 1:11:51.720 --> 1:11:54.360 can judge that by looking at the deer in the profile. 1:11:54.840 --> 1:11:58.880 Those are all um antler restrictions where they would they 1:11:58.880 --> 1:12:02.639 would actually make select of harvest to the hunter who's choosing. 1:12:03.360 --> 1:12:06.160 There's other ways to actually move dear into older age 1:12:06.200 --> 1:12:08.840 classes too that are not part of that, which would 1:12:08.880 --> 1:12:15.120 be reducing total buck harvest by changing seasons, moving days, weapons, um, 1:12:15.240 --> 1:12:19.240 going from something that's easily uh, you know, like going 1:12:19.320 --> 1:12:22.479 from a modern firearm to a primitive weapon and all 1:12:22.560 --> 1:12:25.479 of those tools to say, instead of a hundred and 1:12:25.520 --> 1:12:28.640 fifty thousand bucks being killed in the state, let's killd 1:12:28.720 --> 1:12:32.200 twenty five thousand next year, and we're automatically moving twenty 1:12:32.240 --> 1:12:34.519 five thou more deer into the next age class. So 1:12:34.600 --> 1:12:38.000 that's another form of moving dear. It's it's a it's 1:12:38.040 --> 1:12:40.600 more of a quota based thing than selective harvest. So 1:12:41.280 --> 1:12:45.600 there are restrictions in over twenty states today, either statewide, 1:12:46.280 --> 1:12:49.960 um as the only buck you can shoot, as a 1:12:50.080 --> 1:12:52.240 selection of if you can kill a couple of bucks, 1:12:52.320 --> 1:12:55.320 maybe applied to one of those bucks that you can shoot, 1:12:55.920 --> 1:12:59.880 or in smaller areas. UM, what's the most typical antler 1:13:00.000 --> 1:13:04.040 restriction A point restriction because it's the most easily enforced. Yeah, 1:13:04.080 --> 1:13:08.439 like in Texas, there's some width ones. Yeah, Mississippi too, 1:13:08.600 --> 1:13:10.760 I've heard all that's true enough. We've had people right 1:13:10.840 --> 1:13:13.880 in and say that the width ones leave a lot 1:13:13.960 --> 1:13:16.640 of deer laying out in the woods. There's just too 1:13:16.680 --> 1:13:19.080 hard people to make a call, and they shoot him 1:13:19.120 --> 1:13:21.719 and they're shooting find him. You know, there's a valley 1:13:21.760 --> 1:13:24.000 we passed, We walked through a valley sheep hunting once 1:13:24.479 --> 1:13:27.080 hunting doll sheep. You know in the Alaska there's a 1:13:27.080 --> 1:13:28.920 lot of areas where it's gotta be a uh you know, 1:13:29.000 --> 1:13:33.000 there's a width requirement, like a fifty in requirement. And 1:13:33.080 --> 1:13:37.120 we found two moose skulls in a valley and almost 1:13:37.160 --> 1:13:40.640 like a forty seven and amost forty nine. Yeah, we 1:13:40.680 --> 1:13:42.800 always thought like, man, that seems pretty weird. You know, 1:13:42.880 --> 1:13:47.080 I've heard that comment before, and I know that it's 1:13:47.160 --> 1:13:49.720 older data, but it's been proven to be not be 1:13:49.840 --> 1:13:52.040 true to be true. Yeah, that that people aren't just 1:13:52.080 --> 1:13:54.800 shooting deer and let letting them lie. Um, did they 1:13:54.840 --> 1:13:57.320 get up and put a tape measure on there? Like? Yeah? 1:13:57.920 --> 1:14:00.840 Point restricted are the most common, but um, they're also 1:14:00.920 --> 1:14:04.200 the the they're not the best in terms of protecting 1:14:04.240 --> 1:14:06.400 to hear because you can have deer if if the 1:14:07.120 --> 1:14:09.640 goal is to move to hear from one to two, Um, 1:14:09.760 --> 1:14:13.040 you can have bucks that are spikes to ten points 1:14:13.120 --> 1:14:15.599 that are that are one years old. So a point restriction, 1:14:16.080 --> 1:14:18.920 there's a lot more slack in that, which is why 1:14:19.040 --> 1:14:23.479 some states are trying to push hunters either into with 1:14:23.720 --> 1:14:26.720 more reliable it's a more reliable predictor of age, but 1:14:26.800 --> 1:14:31.080 again it's subjective because it's harder to judge the spread. 1:14:31.240 --> 1:14:32.960 That's a good point about the point thing, man, because 1:14:32.960 --> 1:14:35.360 you could have like a little you could have anything 1:14:35.439 --> 1:14:38.680 from a spike to like a little eight point. Absolutely, 1:14:39.680 --> 1:14:42.840 and if it's a statewide restriction, there's a lot of 1:14:42.920 --> 1:14:45.679 variety there in terms of the productivity of a certain states. 1:14:45.720 --> 1:14:48.400 So you have parts of some states that are super productive. 1:14:48.720 --> 1:14:50.240 You know, the soils are there, there's a lot of 1:14:50.320 --> 1:14:53.639 agg and those deer are going to primarily produce larger 1:14:53.680 --> 1:14:56.479 sets of antlers in their first age than ones that 1:14:56.680 --> 1:14:59.760 might be on lower productive areas. UM. So, a lot 1:14:59.800 --> 1:15:03.080 of states, well it will uh make sure Like in 1:15:03.120 --> 1:15:07.040 Pennsylvania they have a split between the state and where 1:15:07.240 --> 1:15:08.800 part of the state it's a four point on a 1:15:08.880 --> 1:15:11.320 side and part of its three. But there it just 1:15:11.400 --> 1:15:14.080 comes down to law enforcement. That's where the Antler restrictions 1:15:14.720 --> 1:15:17.880 UM typically come to. Points point restrictions is because it's 1:15:17.880 --> 1:15:21.720 easier to judge. You should be able to count and 1:15:22.080 --> 1:15:25.720 uh you know, if a law enforcement officer catches up 1:15:25.760 --> 1:15:27.960 with you and checks your harvest and says, okay that 1:15:28.040 --> 1:15:31.160 one doesn't have enough UM or it does, it's easy 1:15:31.439 --> 1:15:33.320 for you know, black and white in terms of what 1:15:33.400 --> 1:15:37.200 the loss does. So the pros of Antler point restrictions 1:15:37.280 --> 1:15:39.200 is be that it just allows more dear to pass 1:15:39.280 --> 1:15:41.840 and do it allows more dear to pass through their 1:15:41.920 --> 1:15:44.240 year and a half old birthday. That is the goal 1:15:44.400 --> 1:15:48.080 and the best case scenario that first kind of rule 1:15:48.160 --> 1:15:53.360 of thumb that we use is is it is it biologically? Um? 1:15:54.920 --> 1:15:57.960 Is it created where it will protect the most yearling 1:15:58.040 --> 1:16:02.200 bucks if that's the goal, but allow the maximum number 1:16:02.240 --> 1:16:04.320 of two and older to be able to be harvested. 1:16:04.920 --> 1:16:07.320 Some of them there's enough slack there that it starts 1:16:07.400 --> 1:16:09.360 bleeding into the two year old age class. We don't 1:16:09.360 --> 1:16:11.920 want that to happen. So you want to make sure 1:16:12.000 --> 1:16:16.320 that the ant restriction, if it's necessary, is protecting the 1:16:16.439 --> 1:16:20.360 most uh first age class, but no other ones have you? 1:16:20.680 --> 1:16:22.920 Have you, guys ever supported or have you heard anybody 1:16:23.000 --> 1:16:25.559 put an idea that if the goals that have If 1:16:25.640 --> 1:16:32.000 the goal is to have um dear like you mentioned earlier, 1:16:32.040 --> 1:16:35.000 having dear of all ages, why don't you do a 1:16:35.120 --> 1:16:39.400 deal where once they're two and a half, you can't 1:16:39.439 --> 1:16:42.360 shoot them anymore, because then you have a whole shipload 1:16:42.400 --> 1:16:44.799 of deer that were of all kinds of age classes. 1:16:44.880 --> 1:16:48.160 Like if you made it you can only shoot spikes 1:16:48.200 --> 1:16:53.400 and forks, that would achieve your goal. There of all 1:16:53.479 --> 1:16:55.840 kinds of old bucks running around, it would have the 1:16:56.080 --> 1:16:58.800 least palatability probably by hunters. But it's yeah, I mean, 1:16:58.800 --> 1:17:02.439 if we're just talking about true core mission. Yeah, like mission, Like, 1:17:02.560 --> 1:17:05.639 the mission isn't The mission isn't that people shoot big 1:17:05.680 --> 1:17:07.280 giant bucks. The mission is that you have dear of 1:17:07.320 --> 1:17:09.400 all ages. Why do you want to kill them all 1:17:09.479 --> 1:17:12.960 once or two and a half just for maximum opportunity? 1:17:14.040 --> 1:17:17.599 Hunter satisfaction is to come into place somewhere. So that's 1:17:17.640 --> 1:17:19.240 what that that's that just has to do with it. 1:17:19.360 --> 1:17:21.840 That would be untenable to people. Well, yeah, I mean 1:17:23.240 --> 1:17:27.240 a big part of managing wildlife is uh the hunter, 1:17:27.560 --> 1:17:30.040 the hunter side of it. And that's actually one of 1:17:30.120 --> 1:17:32.600 the other things that we look at with a restriction 1:17:33.200 --> 1:17:37.599 is is it biologically protecting the most uh the right 1:17:37.680 --> 1:17:40.240 number of deer and allowing maximum harvest on the other 1:17:40.280 --> 1:17:43.120 one to the majority of deer hunter support it. If 1:17:43.160 --> 1:17:45.880 deer hunters in that state or that region or you know, 1:17:46.000 --> 1:17:50.479 management unit don't support it, it's not worth doing. And honestly, 1:17:50.680 --> 1:17:53.360 even before I go any further, we are fans of 1:17:53.640 --> 1:17:57.559 not mandating this stuff. Oh yeah. In my home state, 1:17:57.680 --> 1:18:03.040 New York, we have avoluntary educational program that the State 1:18:03.120 --> 1:18:06.000 of New York launched three years ago and it is 1:18:06.080 --> 1:18:08.719 showing a shift in deer harvest just by the state 1:18:08.800 --> 1:18:12.719 agency saying if you'd like to see deer of older 1:18:12.760 --> 1:18:16.280 age classes, don't shoot young bucks. There's no law or restriction. 1:18:16.640 --> 1:18:20.439 It's education. Oklahoma is probably the place that is the 1:18:20.640 --> 1:18:25.200 poster child for successful voluntary programs through education. They started 1:18:25.280 --> 1:18:29.920 a slogan in the early two thousands hunters in the 1:18:30.040 --> 1:18:33.000 know let young bucks grow. You could buy bumper stickers 1:18:33.040 --> 1:18:36.840 or they gave them away and uh that state routinely 1:18:37.000 --> 1:18:39.120 is in the top five in the country in terms 1:18:39.200 --> 1:18:41.960 of older bucks in their harvests, just by telling their 1:18:42.000 --> 1:18:45.760 hunters through education, no and no legal point restriction. Now 1:18:46.560 --> 1:18:48.600 tell me if this is correct or or add to 1:18:48.680 --> 1:18:50.360 this however you might want to met. But would you 1:18:50.439 --> 1:18:54.160 say that it is true that cdm A is a 1:18:54.280 --> 1:18:59.160 strong advocate of educating on the benefits of having bucks 1:18:59.160 --> 1:19:02.920 across all age classes. But it is certainly still in 1:19:03.040 --> 1:19:05.960 support of and encouraged, you know, hunters to make whatever 1:19:06.040 --> 1:19:07.640 decision they might want. If you want to shoot a 1:19:07.640 --> 1:19:10.200 your inn aff buck, if whether you're four to or four, 1:19:10.680 --> 1:19:12.960 and if that makes you happy, go for it like you. 1:19:13.080 --> 1:19:15.439 I don't think i've ever seen you guys say you 1:19:15.479 --> 1:19:17.799 can't shoot your inn aff hole bucks. I think sometimes 1:19:17.840 --> 1:19:20.200 you get these people There are individuals who do that, 1:19:20.880 --> 1:19:23.479 and I think kind of bastardize your message many times, 1:19:23.880 --> 1:19:25.519 but that's not what you guys ever manned it right. 1:19:25.840 --> 1:19:28.920 There's there's been plenty of cases where we've opposed aniler 1:19:28.960 --> 1:19:32.040 restrictions because they just they either didn't make biological sense 1:19:32.240 --> 1:19:34.560 or the hunters didn't support it, So I no, I 1:19:34.640 --> 1:19:37.320 just won't do it there. I've actually spoken in front 1:19:37.320 --> 1:19:41.679 of commissions in places and said, we do not support this. Really, yeah, 1:19:43.040 --> 1:19:45.519 you guys much more. You much rather goal with like 1:19:45.840 --> 1:19:49.600 education and voluntary Absolutely in Layman's Army, who are we 1:19:49.720 --> 1:19:51.599 to tell anybody what to do with their hunting lis 1:19:51.760 --> 1:19:54.400 especially in Pennsylvania. I mean, we we have antler restrictions, 1:19:54.479 --> 1:19:57.200 but we could almost see ourselves getting behind with the 1:19:57.280 --> 1:20:00.600 hunter recruitment decline and such. You know, of time is 1:20:00.640 --> 1:20:02.439 a big issue. We're not allowed to hunt on Sundays 1:20:02.479 --> 1:20:04.519 there you have you know, as you put it, mugs 1:20:04.560 --> 1:20:06.439 working six days a week. They can't buy a hunting 1:20:06.520 --> 1:20:08.760 license if you can hunt Sunday, I mean, or if 1:20:08.760 --> 1:20:10.320 you get one day a week. It's pretty tough to 1:20:10.360 --> 1:20:13.200 tell somebody, hey, don't shoot that deer when you go out. 1:20:13.240 --> 1:20:14.680 You know, can you imagine when you were a kid 1:20:14.760 --> 1:20:17.679 saying that to your camp. You know in Michigan, definitely 1:20:17.680 --> 1:20:22.040 wouldn't have flowne. Do you guys push against blue laws? Oh? Yeah, 1:20:23.280 --> 1:20:29.320 who don't somebody out there? It blows my mind, man. 1:20:29.400 --> 1:20:34.599 I I recently heard a rumor that, um that when 1:20:34.640 --> 1:20:36.479 you actually saf like, who in the world would support 1:20:36.560 --> 1:20:38.800 a Sunday hunting band. I heard a rumor that like 1:20:38.840 --> 1:20:44.120 a lot of outfitters don't A lot of outfitters support 1:20:44.200 --> 1:20:48.920 Sunday hunting bands. And someone's like, because the reason I 1:20:48.960 --> 1:20:50.559 think it's not true is because they're like, oh, we'd 1:20:50.600 --> 1:20:55.640 have to work on Sundays. One decides this or not. 1:20:55.920 --> 1:20:58.479 It's been an ongoing battle in Pennsylvania and I just 1:20:58.640 --> 1:21:01.439 did a newspaper art a couple of weeks ago or 1:21:01.439 --> 1:21:04.560 an interview. UM, I've debated the head of you know, 1:21:04.680 --> 1:21:06.960 some of the people from the Farm Bureau in Harrisburg. 1:21:07.560 --> 1:21:09.240 They have a big stronghold on that, and I mean 1:21:09.280 --> 1:21:11.320 I've heard every reason under the sun. They don't want 1:21:11.320 --> 1:21:13.519 to have people bother them on Sunday like Diday. I've 1:21:13.560 --> 1:21:15.640 heard everything from the deer need to break you know 1:21:18.840 --> 1:21:20.800 shot you know that I want to be able to 1:21:20.920 --> 1:21:23.800 enjoy my property. I mean just and some of some 1:21:23.840 --> 1:21:25.680 of the arguments I get that, some of them just 1:21:25.880 --> 1:21:29.320 like come on, I mean, and my argument is especially 1:21:29.400 --> 1:21:31.840 they like to the One of the biggest arguments is 1:21:31.880 --> 1:21:36.280 the safety factor. And you're literally it comes in Pennsylvania 1:21:36.400 --> 1:21:38.800 with a two week guns season, it comes down to 1:21:38.920 --> 1:21:41.679 one Sunday, you know, like you're literally only talking about 1:21:41.760 --> 1:21:45.360 one day here. I mean, let's face it, like bow season, 1:21:45.479 --> 1:21:47.840 Like you know, how many bow hunters are gonna, you know, 1:21:47.880 --> 1:21:50.560 stumble across the hiker you know what I mean on 1:21:50.720 --> 1:21:52.560 Sunday on the state game lands or what have you. 1:21:52.760 --> 1:21:54.600 I mean, grouse hunters, how many squirrel hunters on it? 1:21:54.680 --> 1:21:57.280 I mean from the safety standpoint, I don't think that 1:21:57.360 --> 1:21:59.679 makes it pretty good. Oh yeah, the argument that Sundays 1:21:59.720 --> 1:22:03.559 are for hike and yeah, Sundays I don't want to shooting. 1:22:04.880 --> 1:22:09.120 Um yeah, I've never participated in civil disobedience. Well no, 1:22:09.200 --> 1:22:10.800 I kind of dicause I used to pick up road 1:22:10.880 --> 1:22:14.160 kill uh here before it was legal, and I did 1:22:14.240 --> 1:22:16.679 that with and I did it in a very brazen fashion, 1:22:17.360 --> 1:22:20.840 hoping to go in front of a judge and be like, yes, yes, 1:22:21.600 --> 1:22:23.439 I found a deer dead on the side of the 1:22:23.520 --> 1:22:26.800 road and ate it like ye, you knocked me up. Yeah, 1:22:26.840 --> 1:22:29.760 I mean I could have left it. I could have 1:22:29.840 --> 1:22:32.760 left there to rot, but I ate it. Uh. But 1:22:33.240 --> 1:22:35.880 I would imagine the Sunday hunting thing. If I lived 1:22:35.880 --> 1:22:37.760 in a state where you couldn't Sunday hunt, I would 1:22:37.920 --> 1:22:41.560 try to organize civil disobedience and just to have a 1:22:41.680 --> 1:22:44.920 big Sunday hunt. You know what's interesting, big Sunday squirrel 1:22:45.040 --> 1:22:48.360 drive me growing up not hunting on Sunday, I mean, 1:22:48.400 --> 1:22:50.320 growing up, and it's just it's just how it is. 1:22:51.160 --> 1:22:55.400 I've never had the urge to hunt on Sunday. Like, well, 1:22:55.439 --> 1:22:57.160 I mean I go to other states, but I guess 1:22:57.360 --> 1:22:59.519 in my mind in Pennsylvania, I'm just like, oh, yeah, 1:22:59.520 --> 1:23:00.519 I can't do it. Years. I have to go to 1:23:00.560 --> 1:23:03.040 Ohio or West Virginia or you know whatever. So you 1:23:03.120 --> 1:23:05.360 go hunt other people's stuff on Sunday. Yeah, I go 1:23:05.439 --> 1:23:07.920 to Ohio. Yeah, sure, dude, that's hilarious. If on the 1:23:07.960 --> 1:23:10.120 border and just like get like a hunt, licensing hunt 1:23:10.200 --> 1:23:12.720 Sunday in the neighboring states, that has to happen. Yeah, 1:23:12.720 --> 1:23:15.200 where I grew up. So I grew up six miles 1:23:15.240 --> 1:23:17.200 from the Maryland border and three miles from the West 1:23:17.280 --> 1:23:19.960 Virginia border in Pennsylvania. And I just grew up hunting 1:23:20.000 --> 1:23:22.560 all three states, and I can hunt Sundays and the 1:23:22.640 --> 1:23:26.320 other two on private land in West Virginia. So um, yeah, 1:23:26.360 --> 1:23:28.559 I mean, I just I'll just hunt in West Virginia though, 1:23:29.160 --> 1:23:32.920 this is how it was. Yeah, And then do you 1:23:32.960 --> 1:23:34.439 think it's gonna go away? I don't want. We don't 1:23:34.439 --> 1:23:36.760 need to spend too much time on because they don't 1:23:36.840 --> 1:23:38.680 have any wins. There's no state that you used to 1:23:38.680 --> 1:23:40.599 be able to hunt on Sundays a night you can't. Well, 1:23:40.600 --> 1:23:43.639 it's further anything, It's further right now than it's ever been, 1:23:43.960 --> 1:23:47.519 uh to passing. So eventually it will definitely go away. 1:23:47.560 --> 1:23:49.599 But just time will tell. I guess we've only had 1:23:49.680 --> 1:23:52.280 Sunday hunting. Like in North Carolina probably ten years ago, 1:23:52.320 --> 1:23:54.400 you couldn't hunt on Sundays, and then they allowed our 1:23:54.479 --> 1:23:57.960 tree hunting on private land. And now it's to some 1:23:58.080 --> 1:24:00.120 point I think you're not allowed to rifle hunt on 1:24:00.200 --> 1:24:03.479 public land on Sundays, and you can't hunt within two 1:24:04.120 --> 1:24:07.679 yards of a church or between nine thirty and eleven 1:24:07.840 --> 1:24:10.280 or something. I mean, it's just absurd because they don't 1:24:10.320 --> 1:24:13.800 want the fears that people coming out of church. I 1:24:13.840 --> 1:24:16.679 guess it'll interte people going into church. We'll see something 1:24:17.000 --> 1:24:23.000 a buck, You'll be like, never mind, I was gonna 1:24:23.520 --> 1:24:26.479 worship this morning. They grab their going to run off 1:24:26.520 --> 1:24:28.640 into the woods. Wasn't different than you can't buy a 1:24:28.720 --> 1:24:30.960 drink between before noon or one. I mean, we have 1:24:31.040 --> 1:24:32.800 all those kind of blue laws in the South. And 1:24:33.600 --> 1:24:35.439 do you think it sends people to church because you 1:24:35.600 --> 1:24:39.040 can't buy booze? But there's this historic perception of alcohol 1:24:39.120 --> 1:24:42.920 being like not a great thing right for a lot 1:24:42.960 --> 1:24:46.840 of people. But those same people, I would think, would 1:24:46.920 --> 1:24:51.320 view hunting as like a pretty wholesome activity. And let 1:24:51.360 --> 1:24:53.800 me get here's an interesting fact. You're like, in Pennsylvania, 1:24:53.880 --> 1:24:56.599 you can't hunt deer on Sundays, but you can hunt 1:24:56.680 --> 1:25:01.559 crows and coyotes. You're only a lot because yeah, you're 1:25:01.560 --> 1:25:04.599 allowed to hunt crows on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday only, 1:25:04.960 --> 1:25:09.080 So you can't hunt crows Monday through Thursday. Coyotes are 1:25:09.120 --> 1:25:11.240 open game man seven days a week. Day later dark 1:25:11.320 --> 1:25:14.000 it's it's free rain on them babies. But dear no, 1:25:14.200 --> 1:25:16.280 we can't do it. It's just because you need a break, 1:25:16.360 --> 1:25:19.559 and you needn't break. You gotta take a Sunday. Off said, 1:25:19.640 --> 1:25:21.519 there was a couple of arguments that you could sort 1:25:21.560 --> 1:25:23.599 of relate to. What are the couple of the ones 1:25:23.600 --> 1:25:24.920 where you go, yeah, I can kind of get that. 1:25:25.200 --> 1:25:29.280 So you know, when I the somebody that opens their 1:25:29.320 --> 1:25:31.639 ground up to the public, you know some you know, hey, 1:25:31.840 --> 1:25:34.439 I just Sunday a farmer maybe, you know, just give 1:25:34.479 --> 1:25:35.880 me a day to feed the cows and get the 1:25:35.960 --> 1:25:39.120 horses moved around, etcetera, etcetera. I can almost see that. 1:25:39.320 --> 1:25:42.679 My argument against that is and your it's your property. 1:25:44.760 --> 1:25:48.559 Say that's where That's where I don't understand it, because 1:25:49.040 --> 1:25:52.120 the argument that guides don't wanna it's like you still 1:25:52.160 --> 1:25:54.439 have some level of autonomy in life. I mean, you 1:25:54.520 --> 1:25:57.799 make decisions, right. I used to. I used to trap 1:25:58.160 --> 1:26:06.439 fox uh uh Mennonite property and he wouldn't let you 1:26:06.640 --> 1:26:11.519 check on Saturday because they kept the historic Sabbath of sundown. 1:26:11.600 --> 1:26:15.000 I think it's sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. Could be 1:26:15.040 --> 1:26:17.000 getting something's wrong, but it was it was not Sunday. 1:26:17.040 --> 1:26:19.080 It wasn't Sunday. It was like they I can't remember 1:26:19.160 --> 1:26:22.000 what I wish I could I feel like they're Mennite. Um. 1:26:22.439 --> 1:26:26.920 But anyhow, sundown Friday, sundown Saturday was their sabbath. He 1:26:27.439 --> 1:26:29.280 was like, I don't want to check in traps on 1:26:29.360 --> 1:26:31.880 my property during the sabbath, which meant on Friday you 1:26:31.920 --> 1:26:34.120 have to go poll because you couldn't know. You don't 1:26:34.120 --> 1:26:35.840 want to leave them out, you have to go pull 1:26:35.880 --> 1:26:38.679 and then reset on Sunday. And no, there's no loss 1:26:38.680 --> 1:26:40.400 saying this was just the guy was pretty clear about 1:26:40.400 --> 1:26:43.560 what he wanted going down on his property, right, And 1:26:44.200 --> 1:26:46.200 it wasn't like I didn't like try to debate him 1:26:46.240 --> 1:26:49.240 on it, right. Yeah, Well if you look at him 1:26:49.280 --> 1:26:51.519 my way, you know he's just like cool man, got it. 1:26:51.840 --> 1:26:53.040 I won't be all here, you know, I won't be 1:26:53.040 --> 1:26:55.680 on here on Saturday. Uh. Back to point restrictions, what 1:26:55.720 --> 1:26:59.599 are the cons like, Like, Okay, you solved the question 1:27:00.560 --> 1:27:04.000 that you guys like categorically think that every state should 1:27:04.000 --> 1:27:07.640 adopt a mandatory point restriction. That's not true. No, And 1:27:07.680 --> 1:27:09.439 in fact, if you look at the data that we 1:27:09.560 --> 1:27:12.800 talked about in the eighties, there was a lot of 1:27:12.880 --> 1:27:17.240 states that had and imbalanced in buck age structure, but 1:27:17.360 --> 1:27:21.400 that doesn't exist today. A lot of states have uh 1:27:21.640 --> 1:27:24.320 deer that represent two and three and older in their 1:27:24.640 --> 1:27:27.479 naturally occurring deer populations, they're in the harvest, So that's 1:27:27.600 --> 1:27:31.439 that's There are definitely small sections of states um and 1:27:31.560 --> 1:27:35.640 probably even in some cases whole states where a significant 1:27:35.680 --> 1:27:39.200 part of the harvest is still young bucks. But that's 1:27:39.240 --> 1:27:41.920 not the cases it was, you know, twenty five years ago, 1:27:42.479 --> 1:27:46.440 so we don't need to hunters have adopted this philosophy. 1:27:47.320 --> 1:27:50.320 One of the things that that also shows where people 1:27:50.360 --> 1:27:53.840 are really thinking about quality deer management differently is the 1:27:54.240 --> 1:27:59.479 general acceptance of shooting dose. It took until was the 1:27:59.520 --> 1:28:03.200 first or nationally the hunters in the United States killed 1:28:03.680 --> 1:28:06.599 more doze than bucks. So that was the first time 1:28:06.640 --> 1:28:09.800 in well talking about what that's a vest because that's 1:28:09.800 --> 1:28:13.760 a defendable we laugh about it now, but but talk 1:28:13.800 --> 1:28:17.560 about what drove that reluctance to kill those What was 1:28:17.760 --> 1:28:21.960 the the concept that you don't shoot those because that's 1:28:22.040 --> 1:28:24.800 what we were taught growing up because there weren't because 1:28:24.840 --> 1:28:27.479 there weren't any deer. But at the point of the 1:28:27.680 --> 1:28:31.040 mid seventies and going into the eighties, deer were almost 1:28:31.120 --> 1:28:33.840 at the highest point they've ever been, and definitely by 1:28:34.080 --> 1:28:36.439 later in that decade it was happening. Yeah, but I 1:28:36.960 --> 1:28:40.400 guess the point being, once upon a time that mentality 1:28:40.840 --> 1:28:44.599 was necessary. It was yeah, like when you had you could. 1:28:44.800 --> 1:28:46.519 I was looking at this chart that showed like what 1:28:46.680 --> 1:28:50.120 counties and again Michigan, I just know because my home state, 1:28:50.160 --> 1:28:52.760 but showing like every it was sort of like by 1:28:52.920 --> 1:28:56.320 five year increments or something, what counties you were allowed 1:28:56.360 --> 1:29:01.040 to hunt deer in. Going back into the early I 1:29:01.080 --> 1:29:03.080 mean there were times when you there were times when 1:29:03.400 --> 1:29:05.679 you were hunting just one little dinky corner in Michigan 1:29:06.479 --> 1:29:08.400 and the rest of it wasn't even open to deer hunting. 1:29:08.680 --> 1:29:10.439 And so that drove this thing like if we're gonna 1:29:11.200 --> 1:29:14.000 if we want to hunt deer at all, um, we 1:29:14.080 --> 1:29:16.560 need to grow dear population. So you can imagine you 1:29:16.720 --> 1:29:20.200 you'd sort of engender this great reluctance on the part 1:29:20.280 --> 1:29:24.920 of hunters. Two want to grow the hurt and now 1:29:24.960 --> 1:29:27.040 we act like it's like, oh, they're so not that 1:29:27.120 --> 1:29:29.160 not that you act this way, but but people perceive 1:29:29.240 --> 1:29:31.799 it like that it was just this macho that everyone 1:29:31.920 --> 1:29:34.040 was too macho to kill dose. But it was a 1:29:34.120 --> 1:29:36.280 really important thing at a time to not kill those 1:29:36.560 --> 1:29:39.200 because there was no deer. So to that end, quality 1:29:39.280 --> 1:29:42.680 deer management and really any game management is should be 1:29:43.479 --> 1:29:47.919 site specific. It should be at the property or management 1:29:48.040 --> 1:29:52.360 unit scale where you're looking at the popular population and temporally, 1:29:52.920 --> 1:29:54.840 what does it look like right now and where do 1:29:54.960 --> 1:29:56.760 we need to go. That's what a management plan is. 1:29:56.920 --> 1:30:01.880 When some state writes a statewide anment plan, or an 1:30:01.920 --> 1:30:05.080 individual property owner gets somebody to come in either through 1:30:05.160 --> 1:30:07.960 federal assistance or has a private consultant right them in 1:30:08.000 --> 1:30:12.120 management plan, they should say, Okay, here's the current inventory, 1:30:12.479 --> 1:30:14.719 this is what it looks like, the habitat the deer, 1:30:14.960 --> 1:30:17.560 whatever what other animal it is, and our goal is 1:30:17.640 --> 1:30:21.719 to get to be point be on the path within 1:30:21.880 --> 1:30:24.040 three to five years. But then you have to reevaluate 1:30:24.160 --> 1:30:26.160 not only annually, but at the end of that time 1:30:26.200 --> 1:30:28.800 period and say, okay, what direction do we go now. 1:30:29.520 --> 1:30:33.679 It's it's like accepting, uh, you know, you can't throw 1:30:33.720 --> 1:30:35.600 the baby out with the bathwater in terms of just 1:30:35.720 --> 1:30:37.639 because it was good once, it's always going to be good. 1:30:37.720 --> 1:30:40.880 And QDM has been definitely thrown into that bathwater of 1:30:41.280 --> 1:30:44.400 we're always going to tell people to shoot older bucks 1:30:44.479 --> 1:30:46.840 and not shoot younger bucks. That's not the case, or 1:30:47.000 --> 1:30:49.720 that you always have to shoot dose. That's not the case. 1:30:49.840 --> 1:30:53.120 It's really site specific and time specific. So you could 1:30:53.120 --> 1:30:55.800 picture coming into a place and seeing a situation where 1:30:55.840 --> 1:31:00.120 you're like, man, don't shoot any dose because so I 1:31:00.360 --> 1:31:03.160 where I live in New York, I'm on the kind 1:31:03.160 --> 1:31:06.400 of the foothills of the Adirondacks, and there are definitely 1:31:06.439 --> 1:31:10.240 places north of me that have low deer density um 1:31:10.280 --> 1:31:14.439 their parts across many places in the country where the 1:31:14.479 --> 1:31:17.240 productivity of the land is not quite that good, and 1:31:17.400 --> 1:31:19.479 you would not need to shoot any dose because it 1:31:19.640 --> 1:31:25.320 just doesn't sustain it. Broad broad pieces of northern New England, 1:31:25.360 --> 1:31:29.120 the White Mountain National Forest, Green Mountains, Adirondacks, those places, 1:31:30.000 --> 1:31:35.840 there's in some places no dose season. It's not necessary, 1:31:37.760 --> 1:31:39.519 and people would like to see hunters would like to 1:31:39.560 --> 1:31:41.280 see more of them on the ground. Yeah, I mean, 1:31:41.560 --> 1:31:43.639 so in those cases, where would we go and talk 1:31:43.680 --> 1:31:46.960 to a hunter about adopting QDM. In those cases, they 1:31:47.040 --> 1:31:50.200 might want to improve the habitat and say, Okay, maybe 1:31:50.240 --> 1:31:52.840 you can build the dear population up a little bit um. 1:31:53.800 --> 1:31:56.679 That would be a way to abstain, abstain from shooting dose, 1:31:56.800 --> 1:32:00.439 because that's what's needed. What's your what's cute m as 1:32:00.479 --> 1:32:07.280 relationship with the agricultural community, and um, I hear about this, 1:32:07.320 --> 1:32:10.360 but I was gonna say that the automobile insurance industry, 1:32:10.800 --> 1:32:13.280 But I've had other people in your world, like in 1:32:13.400 --> 1:32:18.040 your community, say that the automobile insurance industry isn't really 1:32:18.600 --> 1:32:21.880 a main driver and trying to lower deer numbers like that. 1:32:22.080 --> 1:32:24.720 That's kind of a fiction, which I've always been told 1:32:24.840 --> 1:32:26.479 was true. They're like, they don't want to pay out 1:32:26.520 --> 1:32:29.360 so many claims on people crashing into deer, and so 1:32:29.479 --> 1:32:31.400 that they're one of the voices for that we need 1:32:31.479 --> 1:32:33.880 to kill deer, kill deer, kill deer, and then the 1:32:33.920 --> 1:32:36.840 agricultural community. It's indisputable. I don't mean to low them 1:32:36.880 --> 1:32:39.200 all together, but there are components of the egg community 1:32:39.600 --> 1:32:43.840 that generally advocate, Um, we would like to see lower 1:32:43.960 --> 1:32:46.880 deer numbers and have in lessen crop damage because we 1:32:46.960 --> 1:32:50.640 lose so much food to uh well, in terms of 1:32:50.720 --> 1:32:54.360 the the insurance companies, that's generally that is a falsehood, 1:32:54.880 --> 1:32:57.040 Like you don't get calls from them every day being 1:32:57.160 --> 1:33:02.000 like by god, no, yeah, yeah, I mean, oh you 1:33:02.120 --> 1:33:04.160 hear that. I grew up hearing that. But I've had 1:33:04.200 --> 1:33:05.639 a lot of people say like they're just not big 1:33:05.720 --> 1:33:08.479 players and deer management. Like I always say, like I 1:33:08.600 --> 1:33:10.679 just want to be part of that meeting where somebody's 1:33:10.720 --> 1:33:12.840 writing the check and handing it over like I hate 1:33:12.880 --> 1:33:15.800 you more deer this year. Yeah, here's a hundred thousand dollars. 1:33:15.840 --> 1:33:17.960 So you've really never heard of it never. I mean 1:33:18.000 --> 1:33:21.439 I've heard those stories. I never heard any like substantiation that, 1:33:21.560 --> 1:33:26.040 like all states calling up the calling up the Fishing 1:33:26.080 --> 1:33:28.760 Game Agency being like you go, boys, better kill all 1:33:28.800 --> 1:33:30.280 the deer. I mean, put it this way. I've heard 1:33:30.320 --> 1:33:34.120 it for probably twenty five plus years. I've heard that story, 1:33:34.640 --> 1:33:36.880 and I've never heard of a case where like it's 1:33:36.920 --> 1:33:40.040 never been substantiated, like nobody's I would feel like by 1:33:40.160 --> 1:33:43.080 this point, thirty years down the road, somebody would be like, 1:33:43.160 --> 1:33:44.600 you know what, I'm gonna blow the whistle on this. 1:33:44.760 --> 1:33:48.160 This is what I called me and Matt. You have 1:33:48.320 --> 1:33:51.799 insight and other people than the ORG, like kept have workforce, 1:33:51.800 --> 1:33:54.600 state game agencies. Right, so you've seen the inside the 1:33:54.640 --> 1:33:57.040 belly of the beast and that's just not happening, right. No, Yeah, 1:33:57.760 --> 1:33:59.960 that's true. You guys being paid off and you try 1:34:00.000 --> 1:34:03.720 to cover it. Up. That's funny parallel the I'm trip 1:34:03.760 --> 1:34:05.680 will get into chronic wasting disease a little bit, but 1:34:05.760 --> 1:34:08.439 the thought that states are making money off of chronic 1:34:08.520 --> 1:34:11.760 wasting diseases to make money off you can't. But that 1:34:12.240 --> 1:34:17.160 is a misconception that people say that they can't. They're 1:34:17.240 --> 1:34:19.240 they're spending money on it. But the same thing with 1:34:19.360 --> 1:34:22.120 the insurance companies is how are you making money off 1:34:22.160 --> 1:34:24.200 of that? I mean it just making money on cw D. 1:34:24.479 --> 1:34:27.479 So that the theory there what some of these I 1:34:27.600 --> 1:34:30.240 like it, I just can't. I'm not tracking. They're saying 1:34:30.400 --> 1:34:34.120 that this like they're getting all this funding appropriated to 1:34:34.240 --> 1:34:37.559 cw t D management. That's lining the pockets are keeping 1:34:37.560 --> 1:34:45.840 these guys in. Yeah, c w D turns into new pool. Yeah, 1:34:45.960 --> 1:34:47.960 I know, I saw them fishing game boys, got them 1:34:48.040 --> 1:34:52.719 new Tronic. We got a bunch of R pod campers. 1:34:53.800 --> 1:34:56.800 There's been recently new R pods. There's been a couple 1:34:56.800 --> 1:35:00.519 of recent bills trying to get new funding appropriated research stuff, 1:35:00.840 --> 1:35:04.360 which seems like a universal Yeah, absolutely, like let's support that. 1:35:04.439 --> 1:35:06.439 Even if you don't think cw is a big deal, 1:35:06.920 --> 1:35:09.320 even for those people, you should want that funding because 1:35:09.360 --> 1:35:12.400 it's going to help answer the questions regardless, though, those 1:35:12.560 --> 1:35:15.200 guys I'm seeing people post about online like yeah, of 1:35:15.320 --> 1:35:17.160 course they're trying to get more money. That's how all 1:35:17.160 --> 1:35:19.000 these guys are getting rich, just more and more money 1:35:19.080 --> 1:35:22.240 put into it. And it's it's it's crazy. It's just 1:35:22.360 --> 1:35:25.679 the general population of of hunters themselves, and I feel 1:35:25.720 --> 1:35:27.600 like they seek us out on were somewhere. But my 1:35:27.720 --> 1:35:32.000 two favorite conspiracy type theories are rattlesnakes being dropped out 1:35:32.000 --> 1:35:34.560 of helicopters to eat the turkey eggs. I hear that 1:35:34.680 --> 1:35:37.640 one was, Yeah, what is that one? I don't I 1:35:37.680 --> 1:35:39.799 don't know, and they don't because they don't like turkeys. 1:35:39.840 --> 1:35:41.720 They don't like turkeys, I guess, yeah. And then so 1:35:41.840 --> 1:35:44.920 you get a bunch of rattlers and load them into 1:35:44.960 --> 1:35:50.120 a chopper and throw them out that they'll eat the eggs. 1:35:52.040 --> 1:35:54.479 You know, I don't know. I haven't. I'm sorry I 1:35:54.600 --> 1:35:56.759 have heard it, but I love like how round about 1:35:57.640 --> 1:36:01.040 like if you task someone and you're like, dude, um, 1:36:01.439 --> 1:36:03.360 I need you to lower for whatever the hell reason, 1:36:03.439 --> 1:36:06.200 I need to lower turkey numbers. And this guy goes 1:36:06.280 --> 1:36:08.600 and he like he's like, hey, let me formulate a 1:36:08.640 --> 1:36:12.320 pant plan. This is when he comes up and it's like, Okay, 1:36:12.400 --> 1:36:15.680 here's here's how I'm spending the money. You got the 1:36:15.840 --> 1:36:18.439 you know what a rattlesnake is, right, So like it's 1:36:18.600 --> 1:36:22.120 so funny like with these things like how bad. You know, 1:36:24.000 --> 1:36:25.760 he really didn't come to it. If you really did 1:36:25.880 --> 1:36:28.640 come to a group of wildlife professionals and said I 1:36:28.720 --> 1:36:32.360 want to lower turkey numbers, I just don't think that 1:36:32.560 --> 1:36:36.760 they would that would be the proposal, right, I feel 1:36:36.800 --> 1:36:40.080 it would be like a different plan. Yeah. And then 1:36:40.160 --> 1:36:42.519 the next one is the introduction of coyotes, and I 1:36:42.640 --> 1:36:44.680 just I get that one a ton and I just 1:36:44.760 --> 1:36:47.960 got My favorite was this past fall, a guy cornered 1:36:48.000 --> 1:36:50.280 me in a gas station like four thirty in the morning. 1:36:50.320 --> 1:36:53.600 I was because he had a QTM shirt. No, he 1:36:53.680 --> 1:36:55.519 didn't know me from around town. I was going bow 1:36:55.600 --> 1:36:58.200 hunting and he was going bow hunting. And he actually 1:36:58.240 --> 1:37:00.920 worked in the coal mine in Southwest in Pennsylvania, and 1:37:01.120 --> 1:37:04.760 in their break room, one of his buddies knew a guy. 1:37:05.160 --> 1:37:07.080 This is how it went. His buddy knew a guy 1:37:07.280 --> 1:37:09.320 who was at the same gas station and we were 1:37:09.320 --> 1:37:12.640 getting coffee. You know, three weeks prior and there was 1:37:12.680 --> 1:37:15.880 a guy coming from Missouri with a trailer load of coyotes, 1:37:16.320 --> 1:37:20.840 said he was working for the Game Commission, and and 1:37:21.040 --> 1:37:23.160 I'm like, come on, you know that type of dealing. 1:37:23.240 --> 1:37:25.720 He's like, he has never lied to me before, why 1:37:25.760 --> 1:37:27.960 would he start now? You know that that type of deal. 1:37:28.240 --> 1:37:31.080 And I'm like, you don't even Like, I'm just like, 1:37:31.920 --> 1:37:34.960 I can't even argue that. Okay, Like what am I gonna? 1:37:35.200 --> 1:37:36.800 I mean, their mind's made up. But I've heard and 1:37:36.920 --> 1:37:41.040 he saw that they were just real quick, uh, bringing 1:37:41.080 --> 1:37:45.880 in coyotes to kill all the deer. Presumably yes, with 1:37:46.080 --> 1:37:49.280 what goal? I don't know. That's another thing. I mean, 1:37:49.439 --> 1:37:51.960 if you if you know anything about business, and you 1:37:52.000 --> 1:37:54.400 know the amount of money that I'm talking Pennsylvania that 1:37:54.439 --> 1:37:56.920 the white tail deer bring to the bottom line, the 1:37:57.080 --> 1:37:59.080 last thing you do is want less of them from 1:37:59.120 --> 1:38:02.320 a state agency endpoint. But even when you you make 1:38:02.400 --> 1:38:05.720 that logic, it's like, nope, nope, no, no, the state 1:38:05.840 --> 1:38:08.000 agencies are just a bunch of greenis and they don't 1:38:08.040 --> 1:38:14.559 want anybody hunting anymore. That you know, I can see 1:38:14.640 --> 1:38:17.439 that like line of thinking. It was like our famous 1:38:17.479 --> 1:38:18.920 one that we talked about too much. But it was 1:38:19.000 --> 1:38:24.559 the remember the one that the Clintons Clinton the Clintons that, uh, 1:38:25.520 --> 1:38:27.120 I would be covered it so off. I'll say it 1:38:27.160 --> 1:38:34.559 again that the Clintons wanted wolves back because they'd kill 1:38:34.600 --> 1:38:38.360 all the animals and no one would have any occasion 1:38:38.400 --> 1:38:41.679 to hunt anymore. Therefore it would destroy the firearm industry, 1:38:41.760 --> 1:38:46.360 which is another roundabout play. But yeah, conspiracy theories are fun. 1:38:46.479 --> 1:38:53.760 Man Um, we should get onto something that's more serviceable. Uh. Okay, 1:38:53.840 --> 1:38:55.120 I got one question that I do want to talk 1:38:55.120 --> 1:38:57.240 about c w D for a while. But here's my question, 1:38:57.600 --> 1:38:59.080 and you kind of already answered it, because you do 1:38:59.160 --> 1:39:02.280 feel an ovel gay and to like, as an organization, 1:39:02.400 --> 1:39:06.240 you feel an obligation to help people achieve what they want, right, 1:39:06.280 --> 1:39:12.600 because you want hunters to be engaged, involved, happy. But 1:39:12.760 --> 1:39:16.560 let's say you knew some thing. Okay, let's say you 1:39:16.680 --> 1:39:22.439 knew some truth that, uh, that you knew some truth 1:39:22.560 --> 1:39:25.719 where the best thing for deer like that the really 1:39:25.800 --> 1:39:32.519 the best thing for dear was in opposition to what 1:39:32.680 --> 1:39:37.280 hunters wanted. And it was turned out that some unforeseen 1:39:37.400 --> 1:39:41.639 thing like big box were detrimental to wildlife in America 1:39:42.320 --> 1:39:45.240 for whatever reason, I don't know what it is. How 1:39:45.320 --> 1:39:48.280 would you weigh that out? That would be a difficult 1:39:48.400 --> 1:39:52.760 conversation because we need hunters. Yeah, I mean, we will 1:39:52.800 --> 1:39:56.320 always stand behind the science, and ultimately would we would 1:39:57.280 --> 1:39:59.400 end up trying to educate hunters about what? But but 1:39:59.720 --> 1:40:02.600 I don't, Okay, that's that's because what does that I 1:40:02.680 --> 1:40:04.320 I say that all the time too, But like, what 1:40:04.400 --> 1:40:06.120 does that mean to you? To stand behind the science? 1:40:06.400 --> 1:40:09.520 Look at the preponderance of evidence that's out there, evidence 1:40:09.640 --> 1:40:13.719 based science that says what is beneficial to the environment, 1:40:13.760 --> 1:40:15.760 what is what is good for dear? Yeah, that's that's 1:40:15.800 --> 1:40:17.360 what I'm getting at. So let's say there what that's 1:40:17.360 --> 1:40:20.040 what That's what informs my my hypothetical. And it's a 1:40:20.040 --> 1:40:24.920 goofy hypothetical example though called this it's CWD related. But 1:40:25.360 --> 1:40:29.679 the one of the that's this is I'm doing SHREWD hosting. 1:40:30.479 --> 1:40:33.120 So because I'm getting into jump in the gun, go 1:40:33.160 --> 1:40:35.080 ahead and do it for me. So, so, some people 1:40:35.160 --> 1:40:38.880 are saying that you should not allow younger age class 1:40:38.920 --> 1:40:42.679 bucks to advance to older age classes in CDWD management zones, 1:40:43.520 --> 1:40:46.120 theory being that that would be detrimental and lead to 1:40:46.280 --> 1:40:49.960 the spread further, etcetera, etcetera. So how do you, as 1:40:50.240 --> 1:40:53.880 q d M A tackle that? So but here, yeah, 1:40:54.000 --> 1:40:57.519 great job. But but earlier what was interesting is how 1:40:57.640 --> 1:41:01.639 they decrease their home range, which is yeah, great point 1:41:01.840 --> 1:41:06.160 because my body this is his burning question, his burning issues, 1:41:06.320 --> 1:41:08.160 he feels. And he used to he used to he 1:41:08.280 --> 1:41:12.720 used to practice QDM you personally, I think so he 1:41:12.800 --> 1:41:16.080 used to practice QDM, but now he's concerned about where 1:41:16.120 --> 1:41:22.479 they have prevalence. I think it's some's prevalence, which is 1:41:22.560 --> 1:41:26.240 disturbing to him. And so now his like thing, like 1:41:26.560 --> 1:41:28.800 his whole focus has shifted, like the way he sort 1:41:28.840 --> 1:41:31.040 of views everything. And he was an early adopter and 1:41:31.120 --> 1:41:35.599 like really big into q d M. Yeah, I don't 1:41:35.600 --> 1:41:38.360 know he I don't know if he used it, if 1:41:38.400 --> 1:41:40.879 he used that term. Yeah, he know. He's got QDM 1:41:40.920 --> 1:41:44.160 posters handle over his house and ship. But anyhow, his 1:41:44.240 --> 1:41:46.439 whole focus is shift now where he thinks the primary 1:41:46.479 --> 1:41:52.120 concern right now is stopping CWD spread. So and he 1:41:52.240 --> 1:41:55.280 feels that that a lot of the QDM practices are 1:41:55.640 --> 1:42:01.360 anathema to slowing the spread of c w D because 1:42:01.520 --> 1:42:04.479 bucks have higher prevalence and travel more good word by 1:42:04.520 --> 1:42:17.720 the way, um okay, that means against so thanks for that. So, uh, 1:42:18.479 --> 1:42:23.200 Mark's asking about that specific thing. We q m A 1:42:23.520 --> 1:42:26.759 does not employ anybody that's a c w D expert expert, 1:42:26.880 --> 1:42:29.080 but we are not. It seems it could be like 1:42:29.160 --> 1:42:32.200 the high priority. I mean, I went to school for wildlife. 1:42:32.200 --> 1:42:34.479 I'm not a disease expert. You guys don't have like 1:42:34.600 --> 1:42:39.000 an epidemia like we We we align with the people 1:42:39.120 --> 1:42:42.479 that are the experts that we try to bring that, 1:42:43.560 --> 1:42:46.920 whether they work for you or not. In your dialogue. Absolutely, 1:42:47.240 --> 1:42:49.560 and in fact, the person you're talking about, we're in 1:42:49.680 --> 1:42:53.840 dialogue with him. We're on an advisory committee with about 1:42:53.880 --> 1:42:57.000 thirty other people and trying to push the c w 1:42:57.200 --> 1:43:00.599 D message across many different platforms. You know, he's staying 1:43:00.600 --> 1:43:03.720 at my house right now. He should have been here, Yeah, 1:43:03.800 --> 1:43:08.120 he's fishing. He's on a fishing vacation. Should be fishing. Yeah, geez, 1:43:08.160 --> 1:43:12.040 he would have been good too. Absolutely away. Anyway, he's 1:43:12.040 --> 1:43:14.439 actually sussing out my garden project when I left him. 1:43:14.960 --> 1:43:19.080 But go on, Okay, So Mark Mark's question about that 1:43:20.400 --> 1:43:23.160 point of c w D. There is a flead the 1:43:23.160 --> 1:43:26.080 Association Fish and Wildlife Agencies put put out in late 1:43:26.160 --> 1:43:30.840 eighteen Best Management practices that covers everything from surveillance to 1:43:31.560 --> 1:43:35.760 UH monitoring to management, um, all of these different strategies. 1:43:36.720 --> 1:43:39.720 We are in agreement with all of those things, and 1:43:39.840 --> 1:43:42.760 even to the point of pushing deer into older age 1:43:42.800 --> 1:43:46.280 classes to a point. Some of the science is a 1:43:46.320 --> 1:43:50.200 little quirky behind that I kind of got lost from it. Okay, 1:43:50.280 --> 1:43:53.920 back up, Association Fish and Wildlife Agencies put out of 1:43:53.960 --> 1:43:56.519 best management practices for all states and that's like all 1:43:56.600 --> 1:44:01.800 the fifty state all the fifty state game management agencies. Yes, 1:44:02.040 --> 1:44:07.240 they have a they generated best practices for themselves for yeah, 1:44:07.280 --> 1:44:10.920 for the agencies on how to communicate to the public 1:44:11.600 --> 1:44:14.920 um how to best And it's a living document. It's 1:44:15.000 --> 1:44:17.559 changing all the time. It's a really good document. Um 1:44:17.920 --> 1:44:22.840 how it covers the whole gamut of game management of Okay, 1:44:22.920 --> 1:44:24.840 so I think that the CWD is a part of 1:44:24.920 --> 1:44:28.519 this broader package. It's it's a cw D specific doctum 1:44:28.640 --> 1:44:31.560 understand and uh, you know, looking at what are the 1:44:31.640 --> 1:44:35.519 biggest risks, where is c w D spreading the fastest, 1:44:35.760 --> 1:44:39.080 We're all in general agreement that is, uh, moving live 1:44:39.160 --> 1:44:42.320 deer and moving dear parts. Like if you're a hunter 1:44:43.080 --> 1:44:44.519 and you're shoot a deer that is in a c 1:44:44.720 --> 1:44:47.599 w D area and moving the entire carcass either home 1:44:47.720 --> 1:44:51.880 or you're crossing boundaries where it doesn't exist. Has has 1:44:52.200 --> 1:44:56.000 that's happened? For sure? Absolutely? Yeah? And I mean that 1:44:56.240 --> 1:45:01.240 they they've traced they've traced the movement to carcasses. I know, 1:45:01.360 --> 1:45:04.439 their trace movement to to moving captive servants. They have 1:45:04.560 --> 1:45:07.120 done that. I thought you meant. Has legis have they 1:45:07.160 --> 1:45:09.920 have actually ever found somebody moving a dead deer? You 1:45:09.960 --> 1:45:11.519 know what I mean? Has there ever? Has there ever 1:45:11.600 --> 1:45:15.080 been a c w D outbreak that was somehow traceable 1:45:15.439 --> 1:45:20.439 to the movement of a deer's carcass. There's a there's 1:45:20.439 --> 1:45:23.000 an assumption in one place. I don't know if it's 1:45:23.080 --> 1:45:25.400 been proven, but you're not in your head, Hank, do 1:45:25.479 --> 1:45:27.200 you know? No, I don't know if it's proven, but 1:45:27.280 --> 1:45:30.840 it's definitely assumed that some you know, taxidermist had you know, 1:45:30.960 --> 1:45:33.160 thrown out some dear parts that have been brought to 1:45:33.240 --> 1:45:37.120 them that they think created you know, they created an outbreak. Yeah. Okay, 1:45:37.880 --> 1:45:41.840 So those are the biggest, the biggest factors that we 1:45:41.960 --> 1:45:47.040 see thought more so than just dear moving. Yeah, definitely, 1:45:47.720 --> 1:45:51.479 more so because dear don't they do disperse. We needn't 1:45:51.520 --> 1:45:55.040 talk about dispersal, but at younger ages, dear will leave 1:45:55.080 --> 1:45:57.200 where they're born and set up a new home range. 1:45:57.800 --> 1:46:00.559 That has been a concern with c w D UH 1:46:00.960 --> 1:46:03.360 and from a lot of folks are thinking about when 1:46:03.439 --> 1:46:06.599 deer dispersed, they're carrying that with them. You can't stop dispersal. 1:46:06.680 --> 1:46:09.519 It's natural, um and one of the one of the 1:46:09.600 --> 1:46:12.919 thoughts on antler restrictions and that thought process of removing 1:46:13.000 --> 1:46:17.080 antler restrictions in cases where dear dispersal might be moving 1:46:17.120 --> 1:46:21.280 the disease faster UM, that can be arguing. It's confusing 1:46:21.320 --> 1:46:23.479 for hunters because some states have remove them in some 1:46:23.640 --> 1:46:27.080 say states don't. Uh. Pennsylvania is a good example where 1:46:27.080 --> 1:46:29.240 they didn't remove antler restrictions. They got c w D 1:46:29.640 --> 1:46:31.719 and said that's not going to solve the problem because 1:46:31.720 --> 1:46:34.519 the majority, in fact, almost all of dear dispersal occurs 1:46:35.360 --> 1:46:38.360 before the deer is old or not old enough to 1:46:38.400 --> 1:46:41.679 actually carry the disease. So deer moving from when they're 1:46:42.200 --> 1:46:46.840 between eight eighteen months or or so of age and 1:46:46.920 --> 1:46:52.240 twenty months of age, they're moving to a new new place. UM. Anyway, 1:46:53.320 --> 1:46:56.240 dispersal is one of those factors that has looked at UM, 1:46:56.680 --> 1:46:59.640 but also dear movement outside of their home range. Yes, 1:46:59.720 --> 1:47:01.559 we talk talked about their home rerange shrinking as they 1:47:01.600 --> 1:47:04.559 get older, but deer also do something called excursions. That's 1:47:04.560 --> 1:47:07.040 probably the bigger culprit. Where deer will leave where they're 1:47:07.240 --> 1:47:10.040 where they are in the fall and go out on 1:47:10.160 --> 1:47:13.440 these one to three mile excursions looking for breeding opportunities, 1:47:13.520 --> 1:47:16.000 and then they return that may also be moving the 1:47:16.120 --> 1:47:21.759 disease are our thought process. Originally, some of the original 1:47:21.840 --> 1:47:25.360 research that came out was formed by models UM. One 1:47:25.439 --> 1:47:31.040 of the papers pop pav at all looked at disease 1:47:31.080 --> 1:47:35.439 transmission of chronic wasting disease through bucks and had some 1:47:35.520 --> 1:47:39.880 pretty quirky assumptions in there. They assume that of all 1:47:40.000 --> 1:47:42.960 bucks would be harvested annually UM to be able to 1:47:43.200 --> 1:47:45.120 to limit that. That was one of those things that 1:47:45.200 --> 1:47:46.840 we didn't think was quite realistic, So some of the 1:47:46.920 --> 1:47:50.320 assumptions were a little bit quirky. But originally we set 1:47:50.400 --> 1:47:54.280 a rule and and kind of our policy on managing 1:47:54.320 --> 1:47:56.840 hunters and managing c w D in those areas where 1:47:56.880 --> 1:48:00.880 c w D exists is that don't push deer to 1:48:01.080 --> 1:48:05.240 advanced age structures of like four or older, which would 1:48:05.240 --> 1:48:08.599 be trophy management, but continue harvesting deer at least at 1:48:08.640 --> 1:48:12.880 two or three UM and excel that harvest at that point. 1:48:13.920 --> 1:48:16.640 I have heard some cases though, in the West in 1:48:16.720 --> 1:48:20.160 Colorado where they're showing evidence of some of the management 1:48:20.280 --> 1:48:25.240 units where some of that has been shown to UM 1:48:25.880 --> 1:48:28.720 be the case where in places where they're managing for 1:48:28.960 --> 1:48:33.120 mature bucks they are seeing a higher prevalence rate existing. Yeah, 1:48:33.280 --> 1:48:35.800 so that is starting to show up. And we at 1:48:35.840 --> 1:48:37.799 q d m A we do base it on science, 1:48:37.880 --> 1:48:41.479 and we continually review our policies, and we're going through 1:48:41.479 --> 1:48:44.760 a pretty thorough review right now. It wouldn't shock me 1:48:44.920 --> 1:48:47.479 if at some point we have to revamp that. And 1:48:47.560 --> 1:48:50.560 in places where c w D exists, we say, you 1:48:50.600 --> 1:48:54.200 know what, starts shooting bucks at any age instead of 1:48:54.920 --> 1:48:58.400 uh waiting until they're two or older. Our contention there 1:48:58.439 --> 1:49:00.840 has always been you need hunters to be able to 1:49:00.880 --> 1:49:05.920 manage the gear, and in places where we don't have 1:49:06.080 --> 1:49:08.719 good science on it, a lot of this was based 1:49:08.800 --> 1:49:12.839 on modeling, not on real world scenarios. Before the Colorado 1:49:12.920 --> 1:49:16.040 examples popped up, we were talking a bit two hunters 1:49:16.080 --> 1:49:18.120 and saying, if we don't have hunters out there regulating 1:49:18.160 --> 1:49:20.880 the dear populations, we're kind of at a loss. You 1:49:20.920 --> 1:49:23.120 can look at Wisconsin as a perfect example of that, 1:49:23.280 --> 1:49:26.920 where they lost a lot of hunter support and with 1:49:27.080 --> 1:49:29.960 c w D management and a lot of people backed off, 1:49:30.040 --> 1:49:32.200 and now the prevalence rate in that state has hit 1:49:32.320 --> 1:49:36.920 In some places, the disease actually makes a UH. It's 1:49:37.080 --> 1:49:41.479 it's interesting somewhere around one percent prevalence, the disease goes 1:49:41.640 --> 1:49:45.559 from a density dependent disease to a frequency dependent, which 1:49:45.760 --> 1:49:48.120 in essence means it doesn't matter how many animals are 1:49:48.160 --> 1:49:50.840 on the landscape. It's the prevalence rate that really is 1:49:50.880 --> 1:49:55.200 impactful of how quickly it spreads. Explain that. So in 1:49:55.320 --> 1:49:59.400 frequency dependent UH diseases, instead of trying to regulate dear 1:49:59.439 --> 1:50:03.360 population numbers, you need to start monitoring how much UH 1:50:03.479 --> 1:50:06.360 interaction those deer have with each other through movements, through 1:50:06.400 --> 1:50:09.559 congregations and other things. So in those places where they're 1:50:09.600 --> 1:50:13.040 outlawing things like mineral blocks, feed, those all make a 1:50:13.120 --> 1:50:15.479 lot of sense. They do they do, yes, because in 1:50:15.680 --> 1:50:19.160 those places, that's where they're concentrating deer and they're going 1:50:19.240 --> 1:50:24.120 to be dispersing the misfolded proteins are called prions into 1:50:24.200 --> 1:50:26.400 the environment, and other deer are going to contract that. 1:50:26.479 --> 1:50:30.080 So we're fully supportive of that. UM. You know, uh 1:50:30.720 --> 1:50:34.439 Ted Nujam makes the point that you can't stop dear 1:50:34.520 --> 1:50:39.200 from All they do is walk around and smell each other, 1:50:39.800 --> 1:50:44.600 rub noses, roll up against each other, that they're gregarious, 1:50:45.920 --> 1:50:48.000 and that you can't you're not gonna prevent deer under 1:50:48.040 --> 1:50:51.080 your contact. He like describes him as the licking nous 1:50:52.200 --> 1:50:55.720 rubbing these things on the planet. Wouldn't you say, though, 1:50:55.760 --> 1:50:59.040 that mineral licks or baiting stations, that is just a 1:50:59.160 --> 1:51:03.160 disproportionately high concentration of that kind of stuff. So yes, 1:51:03.200 --> 1:51:05.280 there's gonna be interaction, there's gonna be contact, but if 1:51:05.320 --> 1:51:09.040 we can at least minimize those super high concentration zones, 1:51:09.280 --> 1:51:10.880 we're not going to get rid of it all. But 1:51:11.040 --> 1:51:15.240 maybe maybe it's a three better situation, and we should 1:51:15.240 --> 1:51:17.719 take a three percent better situation. Yeah, and that's probably 1:51:17.760 --> 1:51:20.600 going back to the discussion about UM telling hunters to 1:51:20.960 --> 1:51:24.200 shoot young bucks or not in those cases. You know, 1:51:24.280 --> 1:51:26.320 a lot of a lot of hunters have adopted the 1:51:26.439 --> 1:51:30.200 qdm UH concept, and really, what folks are saying is 1:51:30.320 --> 1:51:33.080 if we can educate the masses like we did, you know, 1:51:33.160 --> 1:51:35.160 twenty five years ago, maybe we can push people to 1:51:35.200 --> 1:51:38.600 shooting young bucks again to reduce that that disease. But 1:51:38.680 --> 1:51:42.439 it's we've we've looked at it pretty objectively and felt 1:51:42.520 --> 1:51:45.960 like if you don't have hunters managing the population and 1:51:46.120 --> 1:51:49.960 and luckily, you know, the disease is a very serious thing. 1:51:50.720 --> 1:51:54.960 But luckily it's still in a small, relatively amount of 1:51:55.080 --> 1:51:58.360 the of the country. What percentage of the country the 1:51:58.520 --> 1:52:01.599 landmass sense has cw I think the last statistic it's 1:52:01.600 --> 1:52:03.400 a little old, but it was about eight percent of 1:52:03.479 --> 1:52:07.920 counties have it in the country. And then how bad 1:52:08.120 --> 1:52:12.479 could it get? It could? Yes, how long do you 1:52:12.479 --> 1:52:16.320 think it would take? Well, if you look at if 1:52:16.360 --> 1:52:18.519 you look at a snapshot of ten years ago of 1:52:18.680 --> 1:52:21.200 the U. S g S puts out a map of it, 1:52:21.760 --> 1:52:25.080 it has probably expanded three times a size since two 1:52:25.160 --> 1:52:27.679 thousand ten, and where it was in the US and Canada. 1:52:28.720 --> 1:52:32.080 The only thing I care about, um, I only care 1:52:32.080 --> 1:52:35.920 about one I aspect to c w D is the 1:52:36.040 --> 1:52:38.680 risk of human transmission. That is the biggest risk. That's 1:52:38.680 --> 1:52:40.720 really all I care about. If not, it's just like 1:52:41.040 --> 1:52:42.719 another thing that kills deer and the tons of stuff 1:52:42.720 --> 1:52:47.920 that kills deer. Yeah, except for probably a secondary thing 1:52:48.080 --> 1:52:51.599 to really worry about is in those places, um, where 1:52:51.680 --> 1:52:54.479 it gets. Once it gets to about five prevalent, it's 1:52:54.640 --> 1:52:57.200 basically hard to stop. You can control it when it's 1:52:57.240 --> 1:53:00.519 before that. That's what a lot of state have been shown. 1:53:00.600 --> 1:53:03.920 Comparing Wisconsin Illinois as a standard peat thing, a lot 1:53:04.000 --> 1:53:06.760 of experts look at they've managed the same way. They've 1:53:06.800 --> 1:53:08.679 had it about the or they've they've had it about 1:53:08.720 --> 1:53:11.639 the same amount of time, but their management strategies changed 1:53:12.080 --> 1:53:16.400 at one point and Illinois today continues to have about 1:53:16.439 --> 1:53:19.439 a one percent prevalence, whereas Wisconsin in some places it's 1:53:19.479 --> 1:53:22.879 fort within the herd. And what do they maybe do differently? 1:53:23.520 --> 1:53:30.320 Uh In in Illinois, they the state has always maintained 1:53:30.479 --> 1:53:33.320 a UH when it's found in a new place, going 1:53:33.400 --> 1:53:36.000 with a target of removal. A lot of hunters here 1:53:36.080 --> 1:53:39.160 that and they think dear eradication, which is not the case. 1:53:39.760 --> 1:53:41.880 It is you go in and you remove a certain 1:53:41.960 --> 1:53:45.720 percentage of the deer to test and sample to see 1:53:45.760 --> 1:53:50.640 how prevalent it is. UM. Not eliminating all deer, but 1:53:50.920 --> 1:53:53.160 removing a percentage of it to be able to not 1:53:53.360 --> 1:53:56.560 only surveil and see how many, how how prevalent it is, 1:53:56.960 --> 1:53:58.960 but also to knock the dear density back so that 1:53:59.120 --> 1:54:02.240 the population is huntable in the future, but also keeping 1:54:02.280 --> 1:54:07.080 prevalence at bay. And since you know, the two thousands, 1:54:07.120 --> 1:54:11.320 Illinois has kept it around one by going into outbreak 1:54:11.360 --> 1:54:13.240 areas and shooting a lot of deer in the beginning, 1:54:14.200 --> 1:54:16.280 not every year, they do it. At the very beginning, 1:54:16.320 --> 1:54:18.360 they shoot a lot of deer. They reduced the deer density, 1:54:18.680 --> 1:54:20.720 and they're trying to maintain that deer density. So there's 1:54:20.720 --> 1:54:22.519 always deer in this and they manage it from the 1:54:22.760 --> 1:54:26.439 from further on by hunters. So they come in and 1:54:26.520 --> 1:54:28.920 they say, okay, you know whatever, we want to take 1:54:29.880 --> 1:54:31.720 deer out of here, and they do that, and then 1:54:32.080 --> 1:54:35.440 the years after that it's just they adjust hunter hunter numbers, 1:54:35.480 --> 1:54:40.240 hunting licenselles, dough allocations and yeah, but it's managed by 1:54:40.320 --> 1:54:42.600 hunters after that. And they started in oh seven, I believe, 1:54:42.600 --> 1:54:46.600 and it's been at one since then. Yeah, I'm not 1:54:46.680 --> 1:54:51.400 sure the exact year. But in Wisconsin, Uh, they've had 1:54:51.440 --> 1:54:54.600 it a long time and in the areas that have 1:54:54.760 --> 1:54:58.680 it had have had it the longest um they lost 1:54:58.680 --> 1:55:00.880 a lot of hunter and landowners to port based on 1:55:01.760 --> 1:55:04.200 going in and trying to remove a lot of deer 1:55:04.840 --> 1:55:07.800 with the help of hunters, um asking hunters to do 1:55:07.960 --> 1:55:11.320 certain things, but they basically lost trust and a lot 1:55:11.360 --> 1:55:14.360 of those landowners and a lot of landowners just held 1:55:14.400 --> 1:55:16.680 their hands up and said, you know, we're we're not 1:55:16.920 --> 1:55:19.120 going to allow access anymore. We're not going to shoot 1:55:19.120 --> 1:55:22.040 these deer anymore. And it's started to climb. And then 1:55:22.080 --> 1:55:24.120 there were a lot of political influences in terms of 1:55:24.200 --> 1:55:27.360 how the states started managing it, and in some cases 1:55:27.440 --> 1:55:29.920 has been kind of a let's watch it and monitor 1:55:30.000 --> 1:55:32.600 it and see how how it reacts. And that is 1:55:32.680 --> 1:55:36.840 now really exacerbated and there's a lot of issues. So 1:55:36.920 --> 1:55:38.880 the other thing I would worry about it, besides jumping 1:55:38.920 --> 1:55:43.920 the species barrier, is in those places where it starts 1:55:44.000 --> 1:55:49.760 reaching above five prevalence, it's always fatal disease. In those cases, 1:55:50.120 --> 1:55:54.000 we will lose dear, Dear populations will decline. It's been 1:55:54.040 --> 1:55:57.360 shown in Wyoming, Colorado, in Wisconsin that you're once the 1:55:57.400 --> 1:56:01.600 aigles above, it's a rain going downwards, and you're it's 1:56:01.600 --> 1:56:04.160 going to be hard to bring that population back up 1:56:04.240 --> 1:56:06.800 at any point, and it's always going to be in 1:56:06.880 --> 1:56:11.160 the environment, so whenever a new deer immigrates into that area, 1:56:11.280 --> 1:56:15.760 it will likely contract it and born and all those things. Yeah, 1:56:16.560 --> 1:56:20.960 I know this is beyond your like, this isn't your 1:56:21.120 --> 1:56:25.640 area of expertise, But do you feel like, in ten 1:56:25.760 --> 1:56:29.600 years or in the people you speak to, is there 1:56:29.680 --> 1:56:35.360 any path towards us knowing for certain what the diseases 1:56:35.440 --> 1:56:37.920 capabilities are in terms of that it would jump to cattle, 1:56:39.880 --> 1:56:42.800 that it would jump to sheet, that it would jump 1:56:42.880 --> 1:56:45.800 to humans. Will we ever? Will someone ever say, like, 1:56:45.920 --> 1:56:48.720 you know what, turns out it can't. I don't think 1:56:48.720 --> 1:56:50.760 anybody will say that because it's it's part of the 1:56:50.880 --> 1:56:55.760 family of t s S and other ts ese that's transmissible. 1:56:56.240 --> 1:57:01.360 Sponge deform and cephalopathys um have have done that, and 1:57:01.840 --> 1:57:07.320 the more interactions it has with those other animals and humans, 1:57:08.040 --> 1:57:12.120 every case is a possibility where it could. Uh they 1:57:12.160 --> 1:57:17.080 are um changing over time, disease has changed, so as 1:57:17.120 --> 1:57:20.400 it grows, it is possible. But right now there's research 1:57:20.440 --> 1:57:23.600 out of Colorado that says it won't jump to cows 1:57:23.760 --> 1:57:27.680 to livestock um and the best science out there that 1:57:27.760 --> 1:57:31.320 we there's conflicting evidence, but the best science is also 1:57:31.480 --> 1:57:34.640 saying that the species barriers to humans is pretty strong 1:57:34.800 --> 1:57:36.920 that it likely won't drink. Remember they came out with 1:57:36.960 --> 1:57:40.880 that some guy comes out of some people out of 1:57:40.960 --> 1:57:42.800 cannon like, oh, we gave it to a monkey the 1:57:43.360 --> 1:57:46.600 macaw thing turn out not being true. Dude. Stories like 1:57:46.680 --> 1:57:51.120 that pick up a lot more traction than the retraction faster. 1:57:52.000 --> 1:57:55.560 Not even fake news, just like like, that's a study 1:57:55.640 --> 1:57:59.920 that was done. It wasn't even reviewed and and there's 1:58:00.040 --> 1:58:03.120 a question in terms of how it was performed, and 1:58:03.240 --> 1:58:06.720 the sample size is pretty small. Um. But there's the 1:58:06.800 --> 1:58:09.920 other there's another study that's out of UM the National 1:58:10.400 --> 1:58:13.520 Health Institute at a Colorado UM that used the same 1:58:14.280 --> 1:58:16.040 kind of monkey and used a lot more of them. 1:58:16.560 --> 1:58:18.280 It was about a fifteen year study and they showed 1:58:18.320 --> 1:58:22.680 that the species barriers are pretty strong. So UM, right 1:58:22.720 --> 1:58:24.920 now the evidence is leading towards it being a strong 1:58:25.000 --> 1:58:27.320 species barrier. But I don't know if anybody would say 1:58:27.320 --> 1:58:31.160 it's never going to there's another cool um opportunity, and 1:58:31.280 --> 1:58:32.920 you might know it's I think it's like New Yorker 1:58:33.040 --> 1:58:35.720 p a. But somebody like a wild game dinner later 1:58:35.920 --> 1:58:39.120 realized that they served the CWD positive deer to like 1:58:39.200 --> 1:58:41.600 a group of a couple hundred people. They got like 1:58:41.680 --> 1:58:44.680 over a hundred people their tracking tracking them for a decade. Now, 1:58:44.960 --> 1:58:48.080 yeah it was New York and there was it was 1:58:48.120 --> 1:58:51.320 like two hundred people and a hundred some submitted, right, 1:58:51.760 --> 1:58:53.600 they submitted and they've been looking at it for a 1:58:53.640 --> 1:58:56.560 long time and haven't seen it. You know, do you 1:58:56.640 --> 1:59:01.480 find that the I find that most like this gets 1:59:01.480 --> 1:59:03.800 a little bit complicated. The other day I was asking Mark, 1:59:04.360 --> 1:59:07.640 what does the c w D denier nowadays, Because the 1:59:07.680 --> 1:59:11.000 c w D denier a couple of years ago was 1:59:11.120 --> 1:59:14.720 someone who's like it's make believe. But now c w 1:59:14.920 --> 1:59:17.800 D deny or doesn't deny c w D. They're just 1:59:17.840 --> 1:59:20.240 like it's not a big deal. Like you're running out 1:59:20.280 --> 1:59:23.080 of people who you're running out of c w D 1:59:23.240 --> 1:59:25.720 deniers who think it's make believe. Now they're like, oh no, 1:59:25.880 --> 1:59:29.360 it's for real. But don't worry about it. I have 1:59:29.520 --> 1:59:31.480 found and this like I hope they're right, Like I 1:59:31.560 --> 1:59:34.200 really root, like I root every day for c w 1:59:34.320 --> 1:59:36.560 D deniers to be right, Like I can't wait for 1:59:36.640 --> 1:59:39.000 them to be right, and that I was wrong and 1:59:39.280 --> 1:59:40.560 I'll be like, I'll be the first guy to go 1:59:40.640 --> 1:59:43.640 out and you know, buy him a beer. Like I 1:59:43.680 --> 1:59:45.880 hope they're right. I just don't know that they are, 1:59:46.160 --> 1:59:49.240 and I can't think they're not. But um, I have 1:59:49.360 --> 1:59:51.600 found that most of your big like don't worry about 1:59:51.640 --> 1:59:55.080 c w D people tend to be from the deer industry, 1:59:57.160 --> 2:00:00.840 captive deer industry. Is that what we mean? No, notice 2:00:00.880 --> 2:00:06.280 that like baiting supplements, like, they tend to have a 2:00:06.400 --> 2:00:10.240 connection interest. Yeah, they tend to have a connection to 2:00:11.360 --> 2:00:17.000 um selling ship you feed a deer, or move buying 2:00:17.040 --> 2:00:19.040 and selling deer and trade and deer and breeding deer. 2:00:19.120 --> 2:00:21.720 And is that do you find it that's true? We 2:00:21.800 --> 2:00:25.600 do find that that's true. And we held a special 2:00:26.680 --> 2:00:28.800 press conference at a t A this year about c 2:00:29.120 --> 2:00:30.560 w D and try to get as many of the 2:00:30.600 --> 2:00:33.400 people in the industry there to to that press conference 2:00:33.440 --> 2:00:37.440 to talk about that. And our CEO went on record 2:00:37.480 --> 2:00:40.800 of saying almost that exact thing at that press conference. Yeah, um, 2:00:41.360 --> 2:00:47.440 you know, I don't I understand the thought process there 2:00:47.520 --> 2:00:51.200 because what what is hunting I mean, is so tied 2:00:51.320 --> 2:00:55.600 to nostalgia and tradition and all of these good thoughts 2:00:55.640 --> 2:00:57.800 and good things that have happened to a lot of us. 2:00:58.520 --> 2:01:01.680 And you you you said the word hope. I hope 2:01:01.720 --> 2:01:04.400 it's you know, not going to be the case too. 2:01:05.080 --> 2:01:08.960 But the majority of vast majority of people know that 2:01:09.120 --> 2:01:14.160 it's a serious disease. And we we as hunters, you know, 2:01:14.240 --> 2:01:17.000 talking to the general listener here, we have to we 2:01:17.120 --> 2:01:18.880 have to align with that. We have to realize that 2:01:18.960 --> 2:01:21.520 it is serious and we need to do our part. Yeah, 2:01:21.600 --> 2:01:24.520 and the other thing about the like like again, I 2:01:24.560 --> 2:01:27.120 don't even know what a c W deny or is anymore, 2:01:27.600 --> 2:01:29.400 but I would think that anyone would be really happy 2:01:29.400 --> 2:01:32.880 about funding because if you're convinced that it's not a 2:01:32.920 --> 2:01:35.800 big deal, I would think that you'd be very eager 2:01:36.360 --> 2:01:40.280 to see this born out by the academic community exactly 2:01:40.480 --> 2:01:42.480 that they would look and but they would say that 2:01:42.560 --> 2:01:44.280 they wanted to be I think they would tell you 2:01:44.320 --> 2:01:45.800 that they wanted to be a big deal. My new 2:01:45.840 --> 2:01:48.800 thing was c W D deniers is I wanna get 2:01:48.840 --> 2:01:52.280 a bunch of positive deer and make and get a 2:01:52.320 --> 2:01:54.480 dozen or so of them and make a batch of 2:01:54.520 --> 2:01:57.800 burger and I'm even gonna grind some spinal cord into 2:01:57.880 --> 2:02:02.400 that that blend and make him a patty. I don't 2:02:02.400 --> 2:02:05.760 know fry that patty. And I'm gonna say, once you 2:02:05.840 --> 2:02:09.560 eat that burger, we'll talk. But if you won't eat 2:02:09.600 --> 2:02:12.560 that burger, I don't want to talk. Would be good. 2:02:12.600 --> 2:02:14.840 It's a good litmus test because if I see the 2:02:15.080 --> 2:02:17.360 slightest Yanni brought up, No, he's got to bring in 2:02:17.440 --> 2:02:21.600 his kid marks, No, he's got to bring in his kids. 2:02:22.160 --> 2:02:27.640 Maybe your kid eats that burger, we'll talk about And 2:02:27.720 --> 2:02:29.200 if you if you tell your kid to eat and 2:02:29.280 --> 2:02:30.520 he eats, and I'll be like, kid, this dude's a 2:02:30.560 --> 2:02:32.600 true believer. Now I want to hear he has to say, 2:02:34.160 --> 2:02:36.640 I don't know, I don't know burger to eat, man, 2:02:37.080 --> 2:02:38.720 I don't know. If there's anybody out there willing to 2:02:38.760 --> 2:02:41.000 do that, it would be a tough burger. And and 2:02:41.280 --> 2:02:45.160 we you know, we agree that. Uh, there are less 2:02:45.200 --> 2:02:48.160 of those people, thankfully. Unfortunately they have a pretty big 2:02:48.280 --> 2:02:51.720 platform the detractors of of how serious it is. And 2:02:52.520 --> 2:02:55.200 we just need more folks out there talking about the 2:02:55.280 --> 2:02:59.080 seriousness of it. And luckily there's been some pretty good 2:02:59.160 --> 2:03:01.960 press about seed due to the general public through some 2:03:02.120 --> 2:03:05.840 of the larger publications like the Post. Yeah, but there's 2:03:05.880 --> 2:03:08.680 been some hysterical there has as much as you want 2:03:08.760 --> 2:03:11.360 people to know and take it seriously. The minutes, this 2:03:11.440 --> 2:03:14.400 whole zombie deer that just it wants to being counterproductive 2:03:14.480 --> 2:03:17.760 man being It's that old adage like the only thing 2:03:17.840 --> 2:03:23.840 worse than not being written about is being written about. Um. Uh. 2:03:24.240 --> 2:03:27.360 Do you guys have a blanket policy on baiting deer? Uh? 2:03:27.960 --> 2:03:30.240 We do, um, and that's also being looked at right now. 2:03:30.320 --> 2:03:34.680 But the policy on I'm I'm beyond c w D now. Yeah, 2:03:35.120 --> 2:03:38.600 on baiting deer is in places where it's legal, legal, 2:03:38.720 --> 2:03:43.000 and it's already there. Um, we are supportive of it, 2:03:43.080 --> 2:03:46.200 but we are definitely we are not supportive of introducing 2:03:46.240 --> 2:03:51.800 it into new places. Yeah. Uh because the general public 2:03:51.880 --> 2:03:55.240 does not like baiting deer. Yeah, And we want support 2:03:55.320 --> 2:03:58.720 for hunting and uh, you know, if it's been there 2:03:58.920 --> 2:04:01.080 traditionally in a lot of a lot of hunters, that's 2:04:01.120 --> 2:04:05.680 part of the way they hunt. Um, instead of removing opportunity. Now, again, 2:04:05.800 --> 2:04:08.720 we also have thought processes with diseases, you know, so 2:04:08.800 --> 2:04:11.840 if something like chronic wasting disease pops up in there, 2:04:11.880 --> 2:04:15.640 we would support the state agency and removing that. Yah. Uh. 2:04:16.040 --> 2:04:17.800 That's a part of game management that I like. And 2:04:17.880 --> 2:04:20.720 I learned the principle from my brother who lives in Alaska, 2:04:20.800 --> 2:04:23.720 where they look at there's a prevalent there there. They 2:04:23.760 --> 2:04:27.400 put a lot of weight on traditional use practices, which 2:04:27.440 --> 2:04:31.480 I like, yeah, um that's what the hunters now, right. Yeah, 2:04:31.560 --> 2:04:35.040 It's like it's kind of like, uh, if you have 2:04:35.320 --> 2:04:38.240 like what's regarded as a successful system and you're not 2:04:39.080 --> 2:04:41.880 you know, you're not imperalleling species and there's a thing 2:04:42.000 --> 2:04:44.560 that has worked and it's how people have behaved and 2:04:44.640 --> 2:04:47.920 it's kind of like woven into the culture that you 2:04:48.200 --> 2:04:51.879 when it comes to management decisions, you prioritize traditional use practices. 2:04:53.200 --> 2:04:55.800 Um Like, generally I think it's like a pretty it's 2:04:55.800 --> 2:04:57.800 an interesting way of looking at and I generally find 2:04:57.840 --> 2:04:59.800 that Yeah, like I support that because for instance, like 2:05:00.040 --> 2:05:05.640 can't you never nailed bait bears in Montana? Um I, 2:05:06.000 --> 2:05:10.200 I probably, like I wouldn't support emotion to begin it, 2:05:10.600 --> 2:05:14.560 but in places where you can bait, I actively resist 2:05:14.680 --> 2:05:18.600 efforts to remove the right. Yeah, But that it doesn't 2:05:18.640 --> 2:05:20.680 mean I want to like introduce it in places where 2:05:20.680 --> 2:05:24.040 you cannot, you know, just like like honoring traditional use 2:05:24.120 --> 2:05:28.040 practices and what sort of things have worked for hunters. UM. 2:05:28.640 --> 2:05:30.440 One of the biggest Uh you know, what do you 2:05:30.520 --> 2:05:36.200 got right now? I like to touch on what they're 2:05:36.200 --> 2:05:39.280 doing to get some for the recruitment. I watched some 2:05:39.440 --> 2:05:42.600 videos of the q d M A put out and uh, 2:05:42.800 --> 2:05:45.480 get some new hunters on board if we have time 2:05:45.520 --> 2:05:50.240 for that. Oh yeah, lea, go ahead do it. Uh well, hey, 2:05:50.320 --> 2:05:53.200 I think that's tanks forte right, that would be me. 2:05:53.800 --> 2:05:57.400 I don't know where to start, man um, crossbows. Seems 2:05:57.400 --> 2:05:59.400 like you guys are putting new crossbows and all the 2:05:59.440 --> 2:06:05.400 new hunters. You guys like cross that's all you think 2:06:05.400 --> 2:06:09.040 people should be able to hunt with no no, all right, 2:06:09.120 --> 2:06:11.840 So I mean our goal is to create hunters. It's 2:06:11.880 --> 2:06:14.560 not you know, there have been recruitment programs in this 2:06:14.720 --> 2:06:17.920 country for decades and decades and decades, and really none 2:06:17.960 --> 2:06:21.360 of them are have been working. Well. We've focused on 2:06:21.480 --> 2:06:24.480 the kids of traditional hunters. Uh. You know, I'm down 2:06:24.560 --> 2:06:26.600 the gamut. It's really hard to kind of get into 2:06:26.680 --> 2:06:29.360 these new audiences. And that's that's what we've been doing. 2:06:29.440 --> 2:06:31.800 What you saw. We're about to release a video. UM, 2:06:32.080 --> 2:06:33.800 it's kind of a summary of our field of fork 2:06:33.840 --> 2:06:37.680 in Athens. Last year. But um, we set out, you know, 2:06:37.760 --> 2:06:41.200 with this our three movement Recruit, Retain, Reactivate, we're trying 2:06:41.280 --> 2:06:44.720 to stem the tide of declining hunting. And and the 2:06:44.800 --> 2:06:46.560 cool thing about our three what I love it's it's 2:06:46.560 --> 2:06:49.480 to increase hunting participation but also to increase the tidal 2:06:49.520 --> 2:06:51.960 acceptance of hunting. I think that's really big, and y'all 2:06:52.000 --> 2:06:54.480 touch on that a lot, but it was my best 2:06:54.520 --> 2:06:56.680 of my brother's view that he wishes he's the only 2:06:56.720 --> 2:06:59.360 guy that hunted, but he had a percent public support. Yeah, 2:07:01.120 --> 2:07:03.680 and you know, like you've you've touched always credit you 2:07:03.760 --> 2:07:06.240 on venison diplomacy. I don't know if that's correct, but 2:07:07.040 --> 2:07:10.120 I mean, like that's really what we're doing. Um, But 2:07:10.320 --> 2:07:13.920 we realized that the most efficient audience to create a 2:07:14.000 --> 2:07:19.440 hunters an adult, and um, the highest societal approval of 2:07:19.560 --> 2:07:24.200 hunting is food. So a buddy of mine, a colleague, 2:07:24.600 --> 2:07:27.920 Charles Evans, he's a George R three coordinator, and set 2:07:28.000 --> 2:07:29.680 on his steering committee. One day we were having lunch, 2:07:29.880 --> 2:07:32.400 like I had this idea to do like a game 2:07:32.440 --> 2:07:34.840 breakdown at our local farmers market because they were doing 2:07:34.920 --> 2:07:38.400 chef demonstrations and I just couldn't get my schedule to work. 2:07:38.440 --> 2:07:40.200 And I didn't feel like I was the expert to 2:07:40.240 --> 2:07:41.640 break down a deer in front of you know, a 2:07:41.720 --> 2:07:44.200 group of people at that point in my life. Um. 2:07:44.520 --> 2:07:46.320 But you know, fast forward a year, I was like, hey, man, 2:07:46.400 --> 2:07:48.320 let's just go set up a booth at the farmers market, 2:07:48.480 --> 2:07:51.360 offer samples of venison and see what happens. See if 2:07:51.400 --> 2:07:54.120 people would you know, we lead off with hey, would 2:07:54.120 --> 2:07:57.840 you like to try some venison? And um, and people 2:07:57.920 --> 2:08:01.840 are very receptive. It's amazing. Um. You know a lot 2:08:01.960 --> 2:08:04.520 of the vegetables that come to the farmers market are 2:08:04.640 --> 2:08:07.000 they're you know, they're hunting deer over even in in 2:08:07.080 --> 2:08:09.640 the months that we we can't hunt here with depredation permits. 2:08:09.680 --> 2:08:14.920 So you know, if you're supporting you know, veganism or 2:08:15.000 --> 2:08:17.400 food plant based, I mean there's still if you're don't 2:08:17.400 --> 2:08:19.960 have an eight foot fence or better there you're still 2:08:20.200 --> 2:08:23.400 you know, there's deer being harvested. So really, when you 2:08:24.000 --> 2:08:26.760 when you present hunting for food and you and you 2:08:26.920 --> 2:08:30.879 tell the actual story behind it, it's really hard to attack. 2:08:31.320 --> 2:08:33.480 And so that's what we've done, is we've just gone 2:08:33.520 --> 2:08:36.000 to a to a new audience. You know, I know 2:08:36.200 --> 2:08:38.160 that people that go to the farmer's market care about 2:08:38.160 --> 2:08:43.320 where their food comes from, local, sustainable, whatever. And we've 2:08:43.360 --> 2:08:46.840 got the the you know, the best bang for your buck. 2:08:46.920 --> 2:08:49.880 I mean, there's nothing more local and sustainable than the 2:08:49.960 --> 2:08:52.120 deer that are in our backyards. And that's kind of 2:08:52.160 --> 2:08:54.800 what we're teaching these people. And we do like cross 2:08:54.840 --> 2:09:00.240 spose because I can. We we recruit current hunts to 2:09:00.320 --> 2:09:04.240 mentor these non traditional or new hunters, and so we 2:09:04.720 --> 2:09:08.320 we leave them opening day. We're very fortunate down in Georgia. 2:09:08.360 --> 2:09:11.800 I mean we have dear season from September twelfth this 2:09:11.960 --> 2:09:17.400 year to January fifteen. I mean it's season. Yeah, I 2:09:17.480 --> 2:09:21.360 mean we're very fortunate. Are our limits are two bucks? Nintendos? 2:09:22.000 --> 2:09:25.200 I mean, we we have this opportunity here and and 2:09:25.360 --> 2:09:27.480 I'm a firm believer of the response and all this 2:09:27.800 --> 2:09:29.840 is there are so many people out there they want 2:09:29.840 --> 2:09:32.839 to learn to hunt, um, but they just they're daunted 2:09:32.880 --> 2:09:35.880 by it. They don't know where to start. Um. You know, 2:09:36.200 --> 2:09:39.120 my whole point is access as an invite. I don't 2:09:39.120 --> 2:09:42.280 care how much public access, private access you have. No 2:09:42.400 --> 2:09:44.960 one goes hunting without a mentor somebody to really get 2:09:45.040 --> 2:09:47.160 them through the steps. There's your outliers. There's a few 2:09:47.200 --> 2:09:50.760 of them, but we set up we use crossbows because 2:09:51.360 --> 2:09:53.640 we hunt the second weekend of both season, and that 2:09:53.760 --> 2:09:57.400 gives them the longest opportunity to continue their trial phase. 2:09:58.240 --> 2:10:01.120 Some take it up a immediately and they hunt with 2:10:01.880 --> 2:10:04.720 us or or tell us stories of hunting you ten, fifteen, 2:10:04.760 --> 2:10:08.240 twenty times that year. Some people, Um, it's about the 2:10:08.800 --> 2:10:10.880 rule in life. We're seeing a percent of our participants 2:10:10.920 --> 2:10:15.400 continue hunting to interrupt. I'm sorry, but we rewind just 2:10:15.480 --> 2:10:17.920 a little bit to to get people from the farmer's 2:10:17.960 --> 2:10:19.960 market to the crossbow because there's a bunch in the 2:10:20.000 --> 2:10:22.000 middle of it. Right, So you set up the farmers market, 2:10:22.400 --> 2:10:25.240 you give up venison samples, and then what are you doing? 2:10:25.280 --> 2:10:27.920 They take a bite, they're like, man, that's good. Well, 2:10:28.000 --> 2:10:30.440 and that's the thing. We're getting people who don't eat 2:10:30.480 --> 2:10:33.560 meat too. They're they're willing to eat the venison because 2:10:35.480 --> 2:10:37.640 and so um lead off with, hey, would you like 2:10:37.720 --> 2:10:40.160 to try some venicine? You know, nothing at the booze. 2:10:40.240 --> 2:10:42.800 I mean, we have a flyer and um, but it's 2:10:42.840 --> 2:10:45.600 not like there's not a lot of antlers or you know, 2:10:45.760 --> 2:10:47.440 firearms or anything. But it's hey, would you like to 2:10:47.480 --> 2:10:48.920 try some venicine? And then I'll fill them out and 2:10:48.960 --> 2:10:52.120 say do you eat a lot of vincent? And oddly 2:10:52.240 --> 2:10:54.200 enough there I don't know if it's like if they 2:10:54.240 --> 2:10:55.640 won't to seem like they're a part of the fold 2:10:55.680 --> 2:10:57.160 or whatever, but a lot of people say that they 2:10:57.200 --> 2:10:59.240 eat a lot of innicine, so they're getting it somewhere, 2:10:59.400 --> 2:11:03.080 whether they have a family member or a friend or someone. 2:11:03.520 --> 2:11:05.280 A lot of them say they're any medicine. And then 2:11:05.320 --> 2:11:08.000 I just continue the conversations that hey, we're actually here 2:11:08.560 --> 2:11:11.840 to recruit fifteen hunters to go through this program locally. 2:11:11.960 --> 2:11:14.960 And you know, it's two afternoon trainings in my office 2:11:15.120 --> 2:11:18.160 for three hours, and we take them on to organize 2:11:18.280 --> 2:11:21.680 deer hunt. Um it's a Saturday afternoon, Sunday morning deer hunt. 2:11:21.960 --> 2:11:24.800 But we're pairing them with local mentors and we try 2:11:24.840 --> 2:11:27.200 to get them to form that bond or that relationship 2:11:27.280 --> 2:11:31.440 to continue into you know, there's multiple levels of mentorship. 2:11:31.520 --> 2:11:35.080 I think becoming a hunters to confidence levels. We know 2:11:35.320 --> 2:11:37.080 that if you don't teach somebody how to take care 2:11:37.120 --> 2:11:40.200 of an animal, they'll never go out again because that 2:11:40.320 --> 2:11:43.080 fear of waste. Uh, just not being so you have 2:11:43.160 --> 2:11:45.240 to have the confidence. Yeah, we hear that a lot. 2:11:45.440 --> 2:11:47.760 I don't know what I'm gonna do once it's dead. 2:11:48.800 --> 2:11:51.200 And so if you aren't confident that you're not gonna 2:11:51.280 --> 2:11:55.400 go the responsible person and the majority UM. And then 2:11:55.680 --> 2:11:58.600 I think self identifying a hunter is the ultimate goal 2:11:58.640 --> 2:12:00.960 of our three. But that's confidence, you know, to go 2:12:01.120 --> 2:12:04.320 knock on somebody's door, or or even just self identify 2:12:04.360 --> 2:12:06.280 as a hunter. Like if you don't know what you're 2:12:06.280 --> 2:12:07.920 doing to get knock on somebody story like hey can 2:12:07.960 --> 2:12:12.080 I hunt your back fifteen or whatever, it just doesn't work. 2:12:12.120 --> 2:12:15.080 I think it's important too, especially the age demographics that 2:12:15.120 --> 2:12:16.760 you're seeing. You could touch on that. I think the 2:12:16.800 --> 2:12:19.720 first one was from like eighteen to sixty four. It 2:12:19.880 --> 2:12:23.520 was so mid sixties. We've we've evolved over the years. 2:12:23.640 --> 2:12:27.200 The first year, UM, we recruited a fairly young group. 2:12:27.280 --> 2:12:29.840 We had a couple of undergraduates where Athens, Georgia college 2:12:29.880 --> 2:12:35.640 towns where we piloted it UM. But moving forward, we've 2:12:35.680 --> 2:12:39.080 had people of all different walks of life, from engineers 2:12:39.240 --> 2:12:43.600 to roofers to organic farmers to the farmers market manager. 2:12:43.760 --> 2:12:48.000 This year, UM, you know, both male and female UM, 2:12:48.920 --> 2:12:50.960 just all walks of life, but it's a it's a 2:12:51.040 --> 2:12:54.040 common desire to learn to hunt for food. We really 2:12:54.120 --> 2:12:56.840 do pre select we we do a very diligent we 2:12:57.000 --> 2:13:00.200 use surveys and before we select them, I want make 2:13:00.240 --> 2:13:03.440 sure that they didn't grow up hunting, that they don't 2:13:03.480 --> 2:13:06.560 have immediate resources, like their father didn't hunt, and they 2:13:06.600 --> 2:13:08.960 just didn't take them up on the opportunity as a kid. 2:13:09.040 --> 2:13:11.480 We really want to get those that wouldn't otherwise have 2:13:11.640 --> 2:13:17.600 the opportunity. But um, I mean, now it's eighteen to seventy. Um, 2:13:19.960 --> 2:13:23.720 it's it's really just uh, it's fun to do. Um, 2:13:23.960 --> 2:13:26.120 it's inspiring, but it just shows that how many people 2:13:26.160 --> 2:13:29.640 out there are interested and and to train them up. 2:13:29.640 --> 2:13:31.640 Your training them up and shooting cross boats like half 2:13:31.680 --> 2:13:34.480 of our training and shooting cross bus. The reason behind 2:13:34.520 --> 2:13:37.160 that is it's it's to become a new hunter. And 2:13:37.240 --> 2:13:40.560 think about this two points. If you're mid thirty five, 2:13:40.640 --> 2:13:43.280 forty years on, hadn and hunted yet, it's pretty intimidating 2:13:43.360 --> 2:13:45.200 thing to go up your buddy and go, hey man, 2:13:45.240 --> 2:13:46.840 we take me hunting this weekend with you. I mean, 2:13:47.320 --> 2:13:49.040 if you haven't done it at that point in your life, 2:13:49.120 --> 2:13:52.040 you know, forties, You're probably not gonna go seek somebody 2:13:52.080 --> 2:13:53.920 out to do that. I mean, statistics are low. So 2:13:54.000 --> 2:13:56.400 now the rules are reversed. You know, Hank and No. 2:13:56.520 --> 2:13:59.680 R three program or the Field to Fork program are asking, hey, 2:14:00.000 --> 2:14:02.040 do you want to hunt with us? Right? And then 2:14:02.600 --> 2:14:05.280 where the crossbow comes in play is it's it's a 2:14:05.360 --> 2:14:08.200 less of an intimidating weapon. You know when you start, 2:14:08.320 --> 2:14:10.480 you know, you put a thirty out six in someone's hand. 2:14:10.520 --> 2:14:13.200 There a first time hunter, especially for a female, whoa 2:14:13.320 --> 2:14:14.720 wait a minute here, this is you know, this is 2:14:14.800 --> 2:14:16.640 quite the undertake. I don't know if I feel comfortable 2:14:16.680 --> 2:14:18.960 with that. Crossbow is a little bit different. You know, 2:14:19.120 --> 2:14:22.560 they're less recoil. You know, they don't shoot that far 2:14:22.880 --> 2:14:26.720 you know, etcetera, etcetera. So that's probably it opens up 2:14:26.880 --> 2:14:32.720 more opportunity. Yeah, two nights ago, I had some I 2:14:32.840 --> 2:14:36.560 have some outtown visitors that I alluded to earlier, and 2:14:37.760 --> 2:14:39.960 we actually we cooked a whole deer leg on a 2:14:40.200 --> 2:14:44.160 pellet grill eight dinner. And then one of my bodies 2:14:44.240 --> 2:14:48.120 was talking to another body of mine and he's talking 2:14:48.120 --> 2:14:50.160 about that he never bowl hunted and he got a 2:14:50.240 --> 2:14:52.240 cross bowl, and I overheard him saying, man, it's like 2:14:52.240 --> 2:14:56.320 shooting him with a rifle. I've heard another guy bring 2:14:56.440 --> 2:14:59.360 up to me once. He's like, because you know, like 2:14:59.480 --> 2:15:03.560 the cross a community well often talk about, oh, efficacy 2:15:03.640 --> 2:15:07.720 rates aren't that much higher with crossbows. But we had 2:15:07.760 --> 2:15:10.480 a listener right in he had an interesting point. He's like, yeah, 2:15:10.560 --> 2:15:15.600 because you don't have lifelong hunters shooting them. If you 2:15:15.720 --> 2:15:18.280 had all these stone cold killers who've been shooting compound 2:15:18.320 --> 2:15:20.280 bowls their whole life and they really know how to hunt, 2:15:20.640 --> 2:15:22.920 if you gave them a cross bowl, they're gonna mop up. 2:15:23.480 --> 2:15:26.760 But like crossbow hunters are typically people who don't know 2:15:26.800 --> 2:15:29.040 a lot about deer, don't know a lot about deer hunting. 2:15:29.320 --> 2:15:31.680 They don't know about all the tricks of the trade, 2:15:32.200 --> 2:15:35.600 and so they tend to be less effective and less efficient. 2:15:36.520 --> 2:15:40.400 But if you gave like, you know, the real uh, 2:15:41.560 --> 2:15:46.440 the real pros that piece of equipment, it would be 2:15:46.480 --> 2:15:48.920 the you know to beat both season will be gun season. 2:15:49.000 --> 2:15:53.040 Another interesting angle too, is there's a difference I think 2:15:53.080 --> 2:15:55.040 in taking somebody hunting and teaching them to be a 2:15:55.120 --> 2:15:58.040 hunter and doing the field the fork in Athens per 2:15:58.080 --> 2:16:00.480 Se in other places we've done it. Most of these 2:16:00.520 --> 2:16:04.680 people living around suburban communities where a crossbow allows them 2:16:04.760 --> 2:16:07.880 to hunt. They can hunt in their their back half 2:16:07.960 --> 2:16:10.080 acre if they want to. They have then taken a 2:16:10.200 --> 2:16:12.760 right for etcetera, etcetera. So the idea is, we're gonna 2:16:12.760 --> 2:16:14.640 teach you how to shoot across bow. You're gonna become 2:16:14.640 --> 2:16:16.920 a hunter, and hopefully you're gonna replicate this and do 2:16:17.000 --> 2:16:18.600 it yourself on your own time, maybe even on your 2:16:18.640 --> 2:16:21.080 own property or an uncle's properly your cousin's property. You know, 2:16:21.240 --> 2:16:23.720 Ryan Zex absolutely right. You know, we we wanted to 2:16:23.800 --> 2:16:26.360 use crossbows to take advantage of the early archery seasons. 2:16:26.520 --> 2:16:29.120 You know, it's not cold long, you have daylight hours 2:16:29.160 --> 2:16:31.640 after work. I mean, somebody can show up him at 2:16:31.880 --> 2:16:33.720 hunting property at five thirty and hunt for a couple 2:16:33.760 --> 2:16:36.040 of hours, and you know, once they like seven time switches, 2:16:36.240 --> 2:16:39.600 you lose that. Um, there is a stigma against guns 2:16:39.640 --> 2:16:42.160 in this country, especially in these uh you know what 2:16:42.320 --> 2:16:44.920 we call, you know, a non traditional audience or something 2:16:45.600 --> 2:16:48.000 we found that. You know a lot of people at 2:16:48.040 --> 2:16:49.800 the booth will say I don't know if I could 2:16:49.840 --> 2:16:52.240 really do that, and then you can say, well, we're 2:16:52.240 --> 2:16:55.360 actually using archery equipment and they just perk up. I mean, 2:16:55.440 --> 2:16:58.280 it's there, it's it probably has a little bit more 2:16:58.320 --> 2:17:00.880 to that like Native America. Can you know, you just 2:17:00.959 --> 2:17:05.280 feel like you're a little more um um, you know 2:17:05.560 --> 2:17:08.959 it's intimate. Yeah, people say, well, people, there's this misconception 2:17:09.000 --> 2:17:13.160 to that people feel that it's ethical. Yeah, like that, 2:17:13.280 --> 2:17:15.720 it's more it's it's like such a weird piece of logic, 2:17:15.840 --> 2:17:19.240 but it's pervasive that it's like more ethical to shoot 2:17:19.280 --> 2:17:21.720 an animal with a bow than it didn't shoot animal 2:17:21.720 --> 2:17:24.400 of the gun, which is like I could see all 2:17:24.480 --> 2:17:26.480 kinds of reasons why bo hunt, Like I love the 2:17:26.520 --> 2:17:29.000 bo hunt bo hunt in my entire life. Um. And 2:17:29.080 --> 2:17:32.280 it has a lot to do with how the hunter's perception, 2:17:32.920 --> 2:17:36.800 meaning it's more challenging, it takes a greater it takes 2:17:36.959 --> 2:17:40.960 more skill to master it. It's like, you know, there's 2:17:41.000 --> 2:17:44.360 a thousand things but to say ethical, Like the most 2:17:44.440 --> 2:17:47.200 ethical way to kill a deer probably a captive bolt 2:17:47.240 --> 2:17:51.040 gun to the head, but probably like I mean that's 2:17:51.040 --> 2:17:54.840 what like with cattle, they've kicked around a thousand ways 2:17:54.879 --> 2:17:56.880 to kill coles and they eventually settled on the idea 2:17:56.920 --> 2:18:01.320 that a big pneumatic you know, a one inch diameternumatic 2:18:01.440 --> 2:18:03.600 thing driving down into their brain pan is a very 2:18:03.680 --> 2:18:07.000 ethical way to kill cows. So there's this, there's this 2:18:07.280 --> 2:18:10.400 that misperson that that miss it's like a misarticulation or 2:18:10.440 --> 2:18:13.280 like a kind of a confusion about what your personal 2:18:13.400 --> 2:18:15.760 journey is, and you're confusing that with sort of like 2:18:16.120 --> 2:18:18.360 how best to like put an animal down and kill it. 2:18:18.879 --> 2:18:22.280 And I don't make all my decisions based on what's 2:18:22.440 --> 2:18:24.440 the best way to put an animal down and kill it, 2:18:25.600 --> 2:18:28.279 because if I did, it would it would change aspects. 2:18:28.280 --> 2:18:31.200 There's a huge personal element to it, right, there's a 2:18:31.280 --> 2:18:33.800 huge personal element to it. I don't think anyone really 2:18:33.879 --> 2:18:38.280 is trying to strive towards like what is the absolute fastest, 2:18:38.360 --> 2:18:42.959 easiest way to kill things? No? No, And and we've 2:18:43.000 --> 2:18:45.680 actually seen you know, it takes in three hours. We 2:18:45.720 --> 2:18:47.879 can make somebody perficient with a crossbow and we limit 2:18:47.879 --> 2:18:50.440 their sh oh yeah, I mean it's as opposed to 2:18:50.480 --> 2:18:52.600 three years. Oh yeah, No, that's the difference is we 2:18:52.640 --> 2:18:55.039 couldn't do it with the vertical best. So you can 2:18:55.080 --> 2:18:56.760 get someone ready to kill a deer in three hours. 2:18:56.879 --> 2:19:02.800 Oh yeah, Well they just make crossbows. Why not just 2:19:03.480 --> 2:19:05.440 make it that you can use a crossbow doing gun season, 2:19:06.600 --> 2:19:08.680 you can not even why not just have it be that, 2:19:08.800 --> 2:19:11.320 have bow season be bowl season and then crossbows is 2:19:11.400 --> 2:19:13.120 part of gun season. That way, they don't if they're 2:19:13.120 --> 2:19:15.320 afraid of guns, they think guns are bad, they can 2:19:15.360 --> 2:19:18.240 just go hunt during guns season with a crossbow. That's 2:19:18.280 --> 2:19:20.320 a good idea, right, Yeah, I mean you can use 2:19:20.320 --> 2:19:22.960 a crossbow anytime. And in some states like Kentucky has 2:19:23.000 --> 2:19:26.520 a crossbows season, they don't allow them in their regular arches. S. Yeah, 2:19:26.600 --> 2:19:28.760 if if that's the argument, like, oh, you're like you 2:19:28.800 --> 2:19:31.560 think guns are naughty, I would just be okay. Then 2:19:31.640 --> 2:19:33.680 the home of the crossbow during gun season. Oh, I 2:19:33.720 --> 2:19:36.120 mean I've had people tell me that Phill the Fork 2:19:36.240 --> 2:19:38.280 is BS because we use crossbows. You know what I mean, 2:19:38.320 --> 2:19:41.600 you know that that's a stretch. Yeah, but um, but 2:19:41.680 --> 2:19:44.000 they're not saying it's naughty. They're just they're just more 2:19:44.080 --> 2:19:47.560 comfortable with it. Yes, I like, and I don't know. 2:19:47.879 --> 2:19:49.920 I mean, I just like, I haven't formed. I don't 2:19:49.959 --> 2:19:52.160 have a big Crossbowl opinion yet. So I can tell 2:19:52.160 --> 2:19:53.640 you this though, Like I can tell you this part 2:19:53.680 --> 2:19:58.280 of it, I would be bummed. I'm generally bummed when 2:19:58.320 --> 2:20:02.000 I see them without even knowing why I feel this way. 2:20:02.480 --> 2:20:07.640 I'm bummed when I see states opened up for cross bowls. Okay, yeah, 2:20:08.120 --> 2:20:11.039 I'm always like a really well, I'm not like I'm 2:20:11.040 --> 2:20:13.600 gonna go with like protests and like pick up the 2:20:13.920 --> 2:20:17.320 state capital or even like write a letter, but I'm 2:20:17.320 --> 2:20:20.160 always like, uh, that's my feeling, and it's like a 2:20:20.240 --> 2:20:22.800 lot of old man kind of stuff. Well, I can't 2:20:23.520 --> 2:20:26.800 hated crossbows. Yeah, probably where I can't support it because 2:20:26.959 --> 2:20:30.400 I'm looking for opportunity. I want to increase hunting participation, 2:20:30.520 --> 2:20:33.040 but that will cost I guess that the kicker is 2:20:33.600 --> 2:20:36.520 of our participants. It's probably even out now, but in 2:20:36.560 --> 2:20:39.240 our first couple of years, they went out and purchased rifles. 2:20:39.840 --> 2:20:41.800 After learning to hunt with a crossbow, they went and 2:20:41.840 --> 2:20:46.840 purchased guns. They wanted to get even better. I mean 2:20:46.959 --> 2:20:50.600 toward a lady from Philadelphia last year, and she actually 2:20:50.720 --> 2:20:53.920 seeked us out. She was a vegan. At one point 2:20:54.000 --> 2:20:56.119 their doctor told her she needed protein, so she wanted 2:20:56.120 --> 2:20:58.320 the most organic form of protein and thought, I want 2:20:58.320 --> 2:21:01.360 to become a hunter, and I just did that. She 2:21:01.440 --> 2:21:03.760 shot shot a deer. A video was awesome and really cool. 2:21:03.920 --> 2:21:05.760 She broke down and cried and you know, but it 2:21:05.840 --> 2:21:09.280 was really neat move moment. But literally two weeks two 2:21:09.320 --> 2:21:11.760 weeks later, she sends me a picture of a deer rifle, 2:21:12.080 --> 2:21:17.480 like I'm going on. It was funny because you know, 2:21:17.680 --> 2:21:20.880 she was very skeptical at first, and then when she 2:21:21.000 --> 2:21:22.960 got it behind her, it was a matter of two 2:21:23.040 --> 2:21:26.160 weeks and it was almost like now they're all done. Now, 2:21:26.440 --> 2:21:28.560 Like I got a gun and it's just how many 2:21:28.600 --> 2:21:30.959 am I allowed to stack up here. I've never I've 2:21:31.040 --> 2:21:32.800 never I've taken a lot of first time hunters out 2:21:32.879 --> 2:21:35.320 over a long long period of time. I have never 2:21:35.600 --> 2:21:38.480 ever had someone regret that they did it. I've had 2:21:38.520 --> 2:21:40.680 people not pick it up. I've had people be like, oh, 2:21:40.720 --> 2:21:42.240 that was great, and then what they think they're gone, 2:21:42.240 --> 2:21:44.440 and then they don't. I've never had someone be like, man, 2:21:44.480 --> 2:21:46.680 I really wish Like when I went to Disneyland or 2:21:46.720 --> 2:21:50.519 Disney World, what ones in California. I went to Disneyland 2:21:51.080 --> 2:21:54.400 and I wish I hadn't right. I was like, I 2:21:54.520 --> 2:21:57.600 regretted going. But I've never had I've never taken someone 2:21:57.720 --> 2:22:00.360 hunting and been like, man, I really wish I had 2:22:00.360 --> 2:22:03.160 made a different decision and hadn't gone and done it. Everybody. 2:22:03.400 --> 2:22:07.200 This is like it changes people's worldview and they might 2:22:07.280 --> 2:22:09.880 not start, but they liked having done it, and it 2:22:10.440 --> 2:22:13.080 totally rewrites their understanding what it's and it changes you 2:22:13.240 --> 2:22:15.600 as a as a mentor. I found I much rather 2:22:15.720 --> 2:22:17.280 watch someone else get something to me get as long 2:22:17.280 --> 2:22:20.200 as I get half of it. Yeah, No, I'm serious, man, 2:22:20.280 --> 2:22:21.720 If you asked me like to go turkey, and I'd 2:22:21.840 --> 2:22:25.320 much rather watch someone get like calling a turkey and 2:22:25.320 --> 2:22:27.240 watch someone get a turkey than than than me get 2:22:27.280 --> 2:22:29.120 a turkey, unless it's, be honest, for someone who's got 2:22:29.160 --> 2:22:32.960 a whole bunch of them. Now, now, Hank tell me this, 2:22:33.280 --> 2:22:36.520 there's a big leap from going out hunting once too 2:22:36.560 --> 2:22:39.440 then converting that into a future hunter. And I think 2:22:39.879 --> 2:22:43.000 you guys have kind of dialed in a scalpel way 2:22:43.040 --> 2:22:45.040 to do that and correct me if I get these 2:22:45.080 --> 2:22:48.880 details wrong. But you kind of a system where you right, 2:22:48.879 --> 2:22:50.760 there's a couple days of education and then there's a 2:22:50.800 --> 2:22:53.600 mentor hunt. But then the key thing is there's follow up. 2:22:53.840 --> 2:22:55.480 So it's not like we take your hunting once and 2:22:55.560 --> 2:22:57.880 you go and then that's it. You have a follow 2:22:57.959 --> 2:23:00.360 up meeting with everyone again again and then also have 2:23:00.480 --> 2:23:02.720 mentors that stay in touch afterwards, right, can you kind 2:23:02.760 --> 2:23:05.040 of explain that? Yeah, that's good because I think that 2:23:05.160 --> 2:23:09.320 it's Remember a body mind participate in a program like 2:23:09.440 --> 2:23:10.920 this and he's like, oh, you can get people to 2:23:11.000 --> 2:23:13.040 come out on a hunt all day if you're like, oh, 2:23:13.080 --> 2:23:16.039 I'll take you to my this participating farm, and then 2:23:16.080 --> 2:23:17.560 they have a great time and then they go home 2:23:17.600 --> 2:23:19.840 and like, what the hell is he gonna do? Yeah? No, Um, 2:23:20.280 --> 2:23:22.840 the one and done events don't work. And we know 2:23:22.959 --> 2:23:24.680 that that's a big part of the our three movement 2:23:24.760 --> 2:23:27.840 stuff is just let's actually evaluate and track the data, 2:23:28.000 --> 2:23:29.840 like let's see if we're being successful. And that's how 2:23:29.879 --> 2:23:32.760 I can say that Actually this year, six of our 2:23:32.800 --> 2:23:37.120 hunters continued hunting program. Yeah, but you know, and what's 2:23:37.160 --> 2:23:39.560 your guys, like, what what's the secret to success there? Well, 2:23:39.600 --> 2:23:43.080 the secret is is there self selecting. We're it's not 2:23:43.680 --> 2:23:46.480 it's not Billy's dad that signed them up for this hunt. 2:23:46.600 --> 2:23:48.360 They see me at the farmers market and they're like, 2:23:48.400 --> 2:23:50.280 this is something I want to do, and actually it's 2:23:50.320 --> 2:23:51.880 usually a good point. I've been wanting to do this 2:23:52.000 --> 2:23:53.920 for ten years or five years. I mean, and you 2:23:54.000 --> 2:23:56.560 meet him, You meet him where you go to them. 2:23:56.959 --> 2:24:01.520 That's what no one's doing. You know, we're noting hunting. Um. 2:24:01.640 --> 2:24:03.440 You know, the philled to fork made the Wall Street 2:24:03.480 --> 2:24:06.760 JOURNALI it got all these views, but that's the first 2:24:06.800 --> 2:24:08.560 time we got it in front of a new audience, 2:24:08.720 --> 2:24:10.800 you know, having filled and stream right about field, the 2:24:10.879 --> 2:24:14.080 fork is only going to a hunting base. Mostly they're like, 2:24:15.160 --> 2:24:18.320 and so we've yeah, we've got to get hunting in 2:24:18.400 --> 2:24:20.480 front of new audiences. And by going to the farmer's 2:24:20.480 --> 2:24:22.880 marking that happens. But to your point, that's a good point, man. 2:24:22.959 --> 2:24:26.080 The self selection rather than being that that you know 2:24:26.200 --> 2:24:29.840 someone's like, damnit, son, you're going to know they're they're 2:24:29.959 --> 2:24:32.480 self selecting. There they went to a place where there 2:24:32.560 --> 2:24:34.520 it's like, here's people that are interested in there, in 2:24:35.160 --> 2:24:38.199 there interesting food. You're meeting them in on in common 2:24:38.280 --> 2:24:41.360 ground where they where they are already focused on that 2:24:41.480 --> 2:24:44.680 type of environment, right and important factors. They don't think 2:24:44.720 --> 2:24:47.800 Hack mentioned it filled the forks in Georgia and then 2:24:47.840 --> 2:24:50.360 I didn't want in Pennsylvania. But there's always a wild 2:24:50.440 --> 2:24:53.680 game component at every meeting. So whenever they're there for 2:24:53.760 --> 2:24:56.240 the training, we're cooking wild game when and then the 2:24:56.840 --> 2:24:59.360 post uh, you know, the post mortem if you will, 2:24:59.600 --> 2:25:02.400 cooking old game. And then we didn't want In Pennsylvania, 2:25:03.000 --> 2:25:05.280 my brother in law is an executive chef, and we 2:25:05.480 --> 2:25:08.160 had a whole butchering segment and cooking. Every meal we 2:25:08.480 --> 2:25:10.000 ate was a wild game. He taught us how, taught 2:25:10.040 --> 2:25:12.600 him how to make sausage, you know, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. 2:25:12.680 --> 2:25:16.199 So it gave them ownership of you know, they they left. 2:25:16.240 --> 2:25:20.119 They're very confident in you know, I can actually kill 2:25:20.200 --> 2:25:22.440 this animal, I can take care of this animal, and 2:25:22.480 --> 2:25:24.480 then I can cook and eat this It's delicious, you know. 2:25:24.600 --> 2:25:28.199 So it was now it does. That is some work 2:25:28.400 --> 2:25:30.680 on the mentors part to pull that off. But when 2:25:30.720 --> 2:25:32.480 you do it, I think that's what has why you 2:25:32.600 --> 2:25:35.760 get successful. That's what that's that's the thing I like, 2:25:35.840 --> 2:25:37.879 because I think you're creating like a good I mean 2:25:38.040 --> 2:25:39.880 say like good hunters and bad hunters, but you're creating 2:25:39.879 --> 2:25:42.520 good hunters because I think everyone now, like in the 2:25:42.640 --> 2:25:45.320 last few years, everyone likes to pay lip service to 2:25:45.520 --> 2:25:48.160 whatever field, the table, feel, the fort because it's because 2:25:48.320 --> 2:25:50.360 like people like it, they're interested in it. But then 2:25:50.400 --> 2:25:53.360 you'll have guys will be like, oh, I killed thirty 2:25:53.440 --> 2:25:56.360 five big game animals this year. It's like, is that right? 2:25:56.879 --> 2:26:00.480 And you're big field the fort guy, Huh, pretty hardy 2:26:00.640 --> 2:26:03.800 couple of meals, you may. It's like it's just gotten 2:26:03.840 --> 2:26:05.879 to the point where people just use it now as 2:26:06.000 --> 2:26:08.560 like a tool, as a marketing tool, and it's so 2:26:09.840 --> 2:26:13.640 it's so full of ship with some people who like 2:26:13.720 --> 2:26:16.400 are talking about something they really don't care about. It's 2:26:16.440 --> 2:26:18.840 like they're harping on some things. They know it cells 2:26:18.920 --> 2:26:21.160 and that, and I just know they don't care, like 2:26:21.320 --> 2:26:24.040 they talk about it because people like it and then 2:26:24.080 --> 2:26:27.120 they live with hypocrisy. But I think that like in 2:26:27.240 --> 2:26:30.440 this idea of like finding people through interest and food 2:26:30.959 --> 2:26:33.360 is it's it's it feels like honest to me because 2:26:33.400 --> 2:26:35.920 people are coming into it with that interest and going 2:26:36.000 --> 2:26:38.640 into food. I think it's also important to talk about 2:26:38.680 --> 2:26:43.080 wild game consumption among hunters and and educate hunters about 2:26:43.080 --> 2:26:46.360 it better. Yeah. No, um, I mean I could go 2:26:46.480 --> 2:26:48.720 back to Mark's point of our our you know, our 2:26:48.760 --> 2:26:50.880 schedule of how we do it, but he's absolutely right. 2:26:50.920 --> 2:26:53.200 We do. We do two after nuds of training, we 2:26:53.280 --> 2:26:56.000 do an organized hunt. Really, the value of that is 2:26:56.080 --> 2:26:58.080 to get it on the calendar. It's like it's it's 2:26:58.080 --> 2:26:59.880 a date that they have to do it, you know 2:27:00.080 --> 2:27:03.000 that that they they start. But the success of the 2:27:03.040 --> 2:27:06.840 program is in the follow up opportunities whether um, you know, 2:27:07.200 --> 2:27:10.400 I've got a local landowner now who's thinking about you know, 2:27:11.160 --> 2:27:14.520 giving a lease per se, not not a monetary exchange, 2:27:14.600 --> 2:27:17.000 but you know, allow create a hunting camp for these 2:27:17.040 --> 2:27:20.879 new hunters. Yeah. Um, you know they're seeing the success. 2:27:21.040 --> 2:27:22.920 They're they're a part of it. But we we do 2:27:23.120 --> 2:27:26.360 serve wild game at every you know, at the farmer's market. 2:27:26.400 --> 2:27:29.280 At both trainings, I'll cook you know, vincent tacos or 2:27:29.320 --> 2:27:32.280 burgers or whatever I have at the time. Um, and 2:27:32.320 --> 2:27:34.720 then we have a culinary social We usually back it 2:27:34.800 --> 2:27:36.680 up a couple of weeks from the organized hunt so 2:27:36.800 --> 2:27:38.560 more people will get out hunting because I really want 2:27:38.600 --> 2:27:41.640 them to share their story as the group. We're finding 2:27:41.680 --> 2:27:45.000 that you know, it's social support that creates that hunter. 2:27:45.120 --> 2:27:46.760 And it's the same thing I talked about earlier, like 2:27:46.800 --> 2:27:49.959 different levels of mentorship. We're creating a group and it's 2:27:50.000 --> 2:27:52.240 all local. It's not like hey, let's go you know, 2:27:52.720 --> 2:27:55.400 five hours away and let's go hunt it just wouldn't 2:27:55.400 --> 2:27:57.680 be as sustainable. We've got this community now, we've got 2:27:57.720 --> 2:28:00.800 like fifty people in Athens and and we've expanded to 2:28:01.440 --> 2:28:04.200 we'll have twenty field to fork events this fall. People 2:28:04.240 --> 2:28:06.880 have to pay to goal. We we charge fifty dollars 2:28:07.240 --> 2:28:09.800 and some have gone away from that. I mean, as 2:28:09.840 --> 2:28:13.320 it's replicated, it's different. I don't we do it just 2:28:13.680 --> 2:28:16.040 as like a little bit of buying, like hopefully they'll 2:28:16.080 --> 2:28:19.040 show up for fifty bucks. And I mean everybody on 2:28:19.320 --> 2:28:21.360 on the back ends, like, man, this is like the 2:28:21.400 --> 2:28:23.840 best investment I've ever made in my life. Give it. 2:28:23.920 --> 2:28:26.680 Give example of how those follow up opportunities might work. 2:28:26.760 --> 2:28:29.320 Where a mentor might send and like a group email 2:28:29.360 --> 2:28:31.840 out to everybody, and we've we've done you know, group 2:28:31.959 --> 2:28:34.160 texts which can get a little text and we have 2:28:34.240 --> 2:28:37.640 a hidden Facebook group for the Athens one. I see 2:28:37.680 --> 2:28:40.040 email chains and it'll just like hey, I've got you 2:28:40.080 --> 2:28:41.520 know it'll be a first time hunter or whatever. And 2:28:41.560 --> 2:28:44.600 it's like I've got Thursday and Friday afternoons free, you know, 2:28:44.680 --> 2:28:47.320 anybody want to take me hunting or a land donner. 2:28:47.640 --> 2:28:50.320 You know, be like, hey, guys, I'm available this weekend 2:28:50.320 --> 2:28:52.200 if you want to come hunt. Come on. So it's 2:28:52.240 --> 2:28:54.520 not like they always pair up with the same one. 2:28:54.640 --> 2:28:58.000 And sometimes I'll take four four of them hunting with 2:28:58.160 --> 2:29:00.360 just me, you know, because I can take Cara and 2:29:00.480 --> 2:29:02.480 if if we get lucky and stuff and you go 2:29:02.560 --> 2:29:04.600 out somewhere where someone's trying to get some doles removed 2:29:04.640 --> 2:29:08.720 after person and um, yeah, we're not selective. I mean, 2:29:08.879 --> 2:29:10.880 if if it makes them happy and they want to 2:29:10.920 --> 2:29:15.920 put it in their freezer, let's you're married. That's an 2:29:15.959 --> 2:29:20.880 interesting Have you like found people to date through this? 2:29:22.000 --> 2:29:24.920 You probably can't talk about it because you're like at work. Yeah, 2:29:26.200 --> 2:29:29.160 we have, we have a filled to fork matchmaking service 2:29:29.400 --> 2:29:34.640 and no, no legitimate we there is a field match. 2:29:35.280 --> 2:29:38.000 It is not a true matchmaking service. But it has happened, 2:29:38.640 --> 2:29:41.680 not personally. But you don't stand in the way of 2:29:41.760 --> 2:29:46.480 it happening. And now because yeah, I'm always like gaming, 2:29:46.520 --> 2:29:48.320 like I'm so far away from being single, but I'm 2:29:48.320 --> 2:29:54.959 always like imagining single. Oh, I mean that's what I'm 2:29:54.959 --> 2:29:58.320 always thinking about. Yeah, and I try a lot of 2:29:58.360 --> 2:30:00.920 my theories my wife. But you know what I do 2:30:01.000 --> 2:30:06.040 if I was single and then no, But I mean 2:30:06.680 --> 2:30:09.720 it's just created this community. It's people of all different 2:30:09.760 --> 2:30:12.720 walks of life that are you know, share this common 2:30:12.760 --> 2:30:15.520 bond of wanting to have a better connection with their food. 2:30:15.560 --> 2:30:18.280 I mean what we hear is they won't. It's for 2:30:18.400 --> 2:30:20.960 the meat, it's a connection with nature, it's the meditative 2:30:21.000 --> 2:30:23.960 aspect of sitting in the woods. What it really is, 2:30:24.280 --> 2:30:27.959 they don't know what it really is. Yeah, no, I'm 2:30:27.959 --> 2:30:30.040 telling you what it really is is that you'll never 2:30:30.080 --> 2:30:32.800 put your finger on it. Well, it's more than just 2:30:32.959 --> 2:30:36.160 the meat. Because if you said to them, if you said, hey, 2:30:36.240 --> 2:30:38.560 man um, you found him at a farmer's market and 2:30:38.640 --> 2:30:40.200 you get to talk about it, you're like, hey, there's 2:30:40.240 --> 2:30:42.200 one or two things we could do here. I just 2:30:42.440 --> 2:30:45.440 dump a deer off at your place, or you can 2:30:45.480 --> 2:30:49.400 come do this thing. If it was just the meat, yeah, 2:30:49.480 --> 2:30:54.680 they'd be like, we'll just drop it off whole package 2:30:54.720 --> 2:30:57.840 of things. But the meat does the meat does? The 2:30:57.920 --> 2:31:00.879 people have it like it's a huge part and it's important. 2:31:01.240 --> 2:31:02.720 But people have a thing where they need to like 2:31:02.800 --> 2:31:08.400 make this balanced image in their head of wildlife management, sustainability, 2:31:08.959 --> 2:31:11.760 self sufficiency, and they and they and the people that 2:31:11.800 --> 2:31:13.840 are suspicious to hunting or didn't grow up around it 2:31:14.200 --> 2:31:19.200 are checking boxes in their head, and it's like yeah, 2:31:19.400 --> 2:31:21.680 not not. I don't even like justify makes this sound negative, 2:31:21.800 --> 2:31:23.480 but it's like they're like they're they weigh this thing 2:31:23.520 --> 2:31:25.959 out and they're like, I need to know it's good 2:31:26.040 --> 2:31:28.480 for me because I want to eat the stuff, but 2:31:28.600 --> 2:31:30.760 I also need to understand some basic things about like 2:31:30.800 --> 2:31:32.920 how wildlife works, Like what does the story of wildlife 2:31:32.959 --> 2:31:34.800 in America? And you need to answer that in a 2:31:34.879 --> 2:31:37.760 satisfactory way because people aren't gonna go like you might 2:31:37.800 --> 2:31:39.160 give them all the meat in the world. They might 2:31:39.200 --> 2:31:40.840 kill all the meat in the world, need everything, but 2:31:40.920 --> 2:31:43.840 if they feel that they're doing something it's detrimental to 2:31:43.959 --> 2:31:48.120 the environment, yeah, that's not it. It's like it's like 2:31:48.240 --> 2:31:55.320 self sufficiency, being like a constructive participant in um like 2:31:55.480 --> 2:31:59.600 a sustainability or betterment for wildlife, not eman for the 2:31:59.720 --> 2:32:01.920 environ RMIT. Like people got to know all this stuff 2:32:03.440 --> 2:32:05.040 like I'm talking about when dealing with people who are 2:32:05.080 --> 2:32:08.240 like completely outside of hunting. Yeah, it's like the meat, yeah, 2:32:08.320 --> 2:32:11.800 but it's like that's very important, but there's a bunch 2:32:11.840 --> 2:32:14.720 of other things that need to be satisfied in their mind. Absolutely, 2:32:14.800 --> 2:32:16.840 And and that was one of the shocking things for me, 2:32:17.080 --> 2:32:20.080 you know, kind of starting this program is they're so 2:32:20.280 --> 2:32:23.480 interested in the ecology of money and it's and I think, 2:32:23.720 --> 2:32:26.560 you know, part of where I see the success of 2:32:26.680 --> 2:32:31.040 the program is they're going back to their perspective peer 2:32:31.120 --> 2:32:33.959 groups and they're sharing their venisine and they're sharing their 2:32:34.040 --> 2:32:38.039 story and that it's venisine diplomacy to entirely new groups. 2:32:38.959 --> 2:32:43.480 And they also need want that ecology and an understanding 2:32:43.600 --> 2:32:45.200 of the value of hunting because they've got to go 2:32:45.480 --> 2:32:47.800 back to their peer group and explain what they're doing. 2:32:48.680 --> 2:32:52.000 And like, you know, like I imagine you probably don't 2:32:52.080 --> 2:32:57.760 create closet and hunters. No. Now these people are out there. 2:32:57.760 --> 2:33:01.520 They're my best advocates. Um, you know, we have a 2:33:01.600 --> 2:33:04.000 waiting list for the Athens program. We wouldn't we probably 2:33:04.040 --> 2:33:05.960 wouldn't never have to get to the farmers market again. 2:33:06.600 --> 2:33:08.800 But I can't call me these How many of these 2:33:08.840 --> 2:33:11.480 you do it every year? Just one in Athens? Uh, 2:33:11.760 --> 2:33:13.480 we know your How many is q d M A 2:33:13.600 --> 2:33:16.680 putting on? We'll do about twenty five this year and um, 2:33:17.200 --> 2:33:19.960 you know about twelve states. And here's one of the 2:33:20.000 --> 2:33:22.000 things really powerful about what you guys have done here 2:33:22.959 --> 2:33:26.280 is you have developed you've systematized this thing. So for 2:33:26.320 --> 2:33:28.080 a long time people have said, you got a mentor hunters, 2:33:28.080 --> 2:33:29.840 you gotta take them out there and connect them with food. 2:33:29.959 --> 2:33:32.440 But you guys have put in place a structure and 2:33:32.520 --> 2:33:36.520 a curriculum, a toolkit that can scale. So you guys 2:33:36.600 --> 2:33:38.480 have correct if I'm wrong here, but right, you guys 2:33:38.520 --> 2:33:40.680 have a toolkit that if someone listening says, hey, I've 2:33:40.680 --> 2:33:42.640 always wanted to do this, this sounds looks such a 2:33:42.680 --> 2:33:45.680 great program. The numbers bear it out. You have the 2:33:45.760 --> 2:33:48.920 resources people need so that Joe Blow can go get 2:33:48.959 --> 2:33:51.960 this information, get the curriculum, get the whole plan, print 2:33:52.000 --> 2:33:53.720 out the stuff and show up with their farmers market 2:33:53.800 --> 2:33:56.080 next week and and start executing on this with your 2:33:56.080 --> 2:33:59.119 guys support. Right, yeah, no, And and that's what I'm 2:33:59.200 --> 2:34:01.720 doing as I'm HOWL, being to facilitate the expansion of 2:34:01.800 --> 2:34:05.199 this program and working with people of all walks of life, 2:34:05.320 --> 2:34:09.400 all different conservation organizations in w T F, B H A. UM, 2:34:09.800 --> 2:34:11.840 you know, all the different state agencies from each state. 2:34:11.879 --> 2:34:14.320 We're partnering with them. I want to try to bring in, 2:34:14.600 --> 2:34:18.000 you know, a collective make these more sustainable. But um, 2:34:18.320 --> 2:34:21.640 we have a standardized education. We we wrote an e book, 2:34:21.800 --> 2:34:23.720 you made this guide, the Successful Deer Hunting. It's probably 2:34:23.720 --> 2:34:26.560 been four years ago, but it's a great resource. We 2:34:26.840 --> 2:34:29.120 just got back from Massy Oak in Films about a 2:34:29.200 --> 2:34:31.920 fifteen part video series on how to deer hunt, which 2:34:31.959 --> 2:34:35.320 will be a great resource for curriculum for Filled the Fork. 2:34:35.840 --> 2:34:39.480 But I am of the mind set that we need 2:34:39.600 --> 2:34:43.440 to do the education necessary in person. But I want 2:34:43.480 --> 2:34:45.520 to give these people the resources where they can go 2:34:45.680 --> 2:34:48.879 home and learn video. You know, we give them resources 2:34:48.959 --> 2:34:52.720 like your website. Um. You know, we actually sit down 2:34:52.760 --> 2:34:56.720 with them at the UM this second afternoon and say 2:34:56.800 --> 2:34:58.640 what what are we missing? What you need from us? 2:34:58.640 --> 2:35:01.400 And we do the same thing at the Culinary Social 2:35:01.600 --> 2:35:03.920 it's what do you need now? What are what did 2:35:03.959 --> 2:35:06.119 we not touch on? You know? A lot of it's 2:35:06.120 --> 2:35:08.440 always like hey, places to hunt, you know what about 2:35:08.520 --> 2:35:11.720 local public lands. We send a lot of information for 2:35:11.800 --> 2:35:14.440 it on that. But we are trying to create this 2:35:14.959 --> 2:35:16.960 and you know, I'm not trying to keep it all 2:35:17.040 --> 2:35:20.240 under the qum A banner. I'll run. I'll run for 2:35:20.600 --> 2:35:22.640 Filled to Forks this year with b h A OK. 2:35:23.160 --> 2:35:26.640 So I'm participating in mentoring a cutum A slash B 2:35:26.879 --> 2:35:29.240 h a joint Field of Fork event this year in Michigan, 2:35:29.560 --> 2:35:32.000 and I think that's such a cool opportunity. It's important 2:35:32.040 --> 2:35:34.600 to note too that it doesn't have to be I say, 2:35:35.080 --> 2:35:37.480 limited to a group thing. I mean, any one of 2:35:37.720 --> 2:35:40.120 your listeners can do this on their own. Basically. That 2:35:40.360 --> 2:35:42.760 that's what we want. That's for the program to be successful. 2:35:42.840 --> 2:35:46.480 That's what has to happen. People need to introduce new 2:35:46.560 --> 2:35:50.200 people hunting outside of their proverbial box. Yeah, at the 2:35:50.280 --> 2:35:52.480 end of the day, I mean, organized programs aren't going 2:35:52.520 --> 2:35:54.520 to move the needle. I mean, we we want to 2:35:54.560 --> 2:35:56.160 scale it, we want to get it, but it's going 2:35:56.200 --> 2:35:59.400 to be individual hunters that that either increase hunting participation 2:35:59.520 --> 2:36:03.080 or not. We need individual hunters to mentor um and 2:36:03.160 --> 2:36:04.879 that's kind of what we're going. But we've taken field 2:36:04.920 --> 2:36:07.480 to Fork and as we've replicated around the country, I've 2:36:07.520 --> 2:36:10.200 tried to prove a few different models. I've gone to 2:36:10.280 --> 2:36:13.000 Texas and done destination filled the forks on large branches 2:36:13.040 --> 2:36:16.440 where people travel in and and it works. But I 2:36:16.720 --> 2:36:19.280 will only take people from Texas because to take somebody 2:36:19.320 --> 2:36:20.800 from New York and take him to Texas to teach 2:36:20.879 --> 2:36:25.280 them that deer hunting. It doesn't work, but um, I've will. 2:36:25.400 --> 2:36:28.039 We're gonna host a field to fork for TRIGGER employees 2:36:28.240 --> 2:36:30.960 this year. Last year, I hosted a field to fork 2:36:31.040 --> 2:36:34.720 for twenty four employees of Ruger and six Hour American 2:36:34.800 --> 2:36:39.039 firearm manufacturers. And that was because an engineer, a young 2:36:39.160 --> 2:36:41.680 lady when we held our first field to fork and 2:36:41.720 --> 2:36:43.840 posted about it on Facebook, reached out. Her name was 2:36:43.840 --> 2:36:46.960 Emily Monroe, and I clicked on her Facebook profile and 2:36:47.080 --> 2:36:51.320 she was an engineer at Ruger. Seriously, she was a 2:36:51.800 --> 2:36:55.120 M I T small bore national champion. I mean she 2:36:55.360 --> 2:36:57.400 she didn't get a scholarship to M I T. I 2:36:57.480 --> 2:37:00.440 have misquoted that many times, but she even you know, 2:37:00.560 --> 2:37:03.880 competition small bore rifle shooting and always wanted to learn 2:37:03.920 --> 2:37:06.840 how to hunt. That is how bad we've done as 2:37:06.879 --> 2:37:10.119 an industry and as a group. We're not even recruiting 2:37:10.160 --> 2:37:12.520 our own. We've hosted Phillip the Forks for q MA employees, 2:37:12.560 --> 2:37:15.000 where I just hosted from my you know, twenty office 2:37:15.000 --> 2:37:17.800 employees who want to learn to hunt. But yeah, we 2:37:17.920 --> 2:37:21.400 had to cap it at twenty four in American firearm 2:37:21.440 --> 2:37:24.200 manufacturers who wanted to learn how to hunt. Yeah, it's 2:37:24.240 --> 2:37:28.600 just we're doing a terrible job, and and you know, 2:37:28.760 --> 2:37:30.520 we've just I think a lot of hunters have kind 2:37:30.520 --> 2:37:33.240 of been isolation us. If it's a terrible job, it's 2:37:33.280 --> 2:37:36.160 just a job that's never really been needed to be done. 2:37:36.560 --> 2:37:38.240 When I when you look in the grand scheme of 2:37:38.320 --> 2:37:42.320 things years ago, most people hunt it that's just what 2:37:42.400 --> 2:37:45.000 you did, especially in the Northeast, right, everybody was a hunter. 2:37:45.040 --> 2:37:47.040 I mean, I want say everybody very relative. It's still 2:37:47.040 --> 2:37:49.440 at ten percent or less, right, Yeah, but it felt 2:37:49.520 --> 2:37:51.720 like it felt like that's just what you did where 2:37:51.760 --> 2:37:54.520 I grew up, Like, I mean, you when you were 2:37:54.560 --> 2:37:56.280 twelve years old, you got a deer license and you 2:37:56.320 --> 2:37:58.080 went hunting. Us is how this is how it was. 2:37:58.400 --> 2:38:01.160 But now again in gram scheme of things, twenty five 2:38:01.200 --> 2:38:03.320 years isn't that long a time. It's a different game 2:38:03.360 --> 2:38:04.960 out there, you know. So it's not that we've done 2:38:05.000 --> 2:38:06.760 a bad job, but just didn't recognize that the job 2:38:06.840 --> 2:38:10.000 needed done. I think now it's very apparent that you know, 2:38:10.040 --> 2:38:12.000 we're trying to play catch up. I think to almost 2:38:12.080 --> 2:38:14.040 a certain extent. Yeah, I mean four and a half 2:38:14.080 --> 2:38:17.400 percent of American population hunts. We have to understand that 2:38:18.280 --> 2:38:20.320 becoming a vast minority of the population is going to 2:38:20.360 --> 2:38:23.400 have negative consequences. And I don't know how many of 2:38:23.440 --> 2:38:26.520 the percentages of American population we could actually support as hunters, 2:38:27.240 --> 2:38:29.120 but we we need to do what we can to 2:38:29.200 --> 2:38:35.960 try to increase high participation. Alright, man, that was your question. 2:38:36.680 --> 2:38:39.959 Thank you, good job. Anymore, we gotta wrap it up. 2:38:40.000 --> 2:38:42.160 You gotta wrap it up. And everybody's teeth are floating 2:38:42.200 --> 2:38:46.560 at this point. You mean people, Uh, that's like euphemism 2:38:48.720 --> 2:38:55.000 for the bladders. Their back teeth are floating on the 2:38:55.040 --> 2:39:00.880 back teeth, teeth, the float. Um. Is there anything humongous 2:39:00.959 --> 2:39:03.960 things that are like major misses that we missed, not 2:39:04.120 --> 2:39:07.080 like little trifling things, but like really really like damn it, 2:39:07.720 --> 2:39:09.840 damn well, I got a major thing. I'm really a 2:39:09.920 --> 2:39:13.040 major thing. Yeah. I'm holding Mark accountable from intoring a 2:39:13.080 --> 2:39:16.760 new hunter this year. Um, he asked me to. And 2:39:17.000 --> 2:39:18.360 he's also going to be a part of our field 2:39:18.360 --> 2:39:19.840 a Ford program, but I think he's going to mentor 2:39:19.879 --> 2:39:23.360 another hunter outside of that. Yeah, And really, I mean 2:39:23.840 --> 2:39:25.440 that's what we want to try to get every hunter 2:39:25.520 --> 2:39:29.240 to do. So we have a staff challenge amongst D 2:39:29.600 --> 2:39:32.360 field staff members to hunt a mentor new hunter every year, 2:39:33.080 --> 2:39:36.000 two or three years now, dude, mean Yanni Crank come 2:39:36.000 --> 2:39:39.440 out like Henry ford Man. Two people, we are two 2:39:39.440 --> 2:39:43.040 people hunt in this spring, and weirdly one of them, 2:39:43.280 --> 2:39:46.720 h this is kind of weird. One of them has property. 2:39:47.920 --> 2:39:49.720 So now I'm like, you know, maybe we go hunt 2:39:49.720 --> 2:39:55.760 your place. She's like, that's great. Everybody thinks so just like, 2:39:56.200 --> 2:39:58.280 you know, totally outside of the fold. But yeah, we're 2:39:58.320 --> 2:40:00.879 meeting these people that fifty acres and we'll go walk 2:40:00.920 --> 2:40:02.520 in and show where to hang the air stands. You know, 2:40:02.640 --> 2:40:07.520 it's not it's not just this total any other humongous mrs. 2:40:10.000 --> 2:40:12.879 All right, guys, people find you imagine you type into 2:40:12.879 --> 2:40:16.600 your computer q d M A. Yeah, you'll find us. 2:40:17.680 --> 2:40:19.959 Don't type in q d M. They'll probably find anyway 2:40:20.120 --> 2:40:24.240 they might they might. All right, I encourage people to 2:40:24.280 --> 2:40:27.200 go have a look. And if you gripe about q 2:40:27.360 --> 2:40:29.000 d M A, I'd be curious to have you go 2:40:29.160 --> 2:40:31.120 look and be like, Okay, what exactly don't you agree with? 2:40:32.360 --> 2:40:36.280 Like what exactly is the problem people writing and tell 2:40:36.360 --> 2:40:38.320 us about? Be interested? Like when you like, actually look 2:40:38.400 --> 2:40:43.000 like what the organization says and does? Where's the like 2:40:43.560 --> 2:40:46.160 show me the part you don't like, Yeah, that's that's 2:40:46.240 --> 2:40:50.600 the big misconception that's there for years. It's yeah, it's 2:40:51.240 --> 2:40:54.840 other people doing certain things get the q d M 2:40:54.920 --> 2:40:59.199 a label applied to them, and it's like it's misappropriated, 2:40:59.440 --> 2:41:01.320 and then people think, oh, that's what Kitty May is 2:41:01.360 --> 2:41:02.760 and and it's not really like you said, when you 2:41:02.800 --> 2:41:05.040 actually go and see what these three folks here and 2:41:05.040 --> 2:41:08.320 their organization really are speaking about doing in the field, 2:41:08.840 --> 2:41:12.080 what they have on their website, those those missions, it's 2:41:12.080 --> 2:41:14.120 hard to argue with that. Yeah, and I think an 2:41:14.120 --> 2:41:19.199 important note from our CEO down you know, Kip, Matt Hank, myself, honestly, 2:41:19.320 --> 2:41:22.280 we're just passionate deer hunters. I mean we work in 2:41:22.360 --> 2:41:25.080 the industry, yes, but we all got there because we 2:41:25.160 --> 2:41:27.760 were deer hunters first. And so it's not like there's 2:41:27.760 --> 2:41:29.480 any hinting agendas that we're trying to do this. We're 2:41:29.480 --> 2:41:31.520 trying to do that at the I mean, you know, 2:41:31.600 --> 2:41:34.640 our CEO hunts hundred days a year probably you know, 2:41:34.680 --> 2:41:38.600 he's a deer hunter man. He's not Peter that. I 2:41:38.680 --> 2:41:41.160 mean Kip, I mean kIPS, you know, our head wildife 2:41:41.200 --> 2:41:44.640 Ball just Mac works for He is a passionate deer hunter. 2:41:44.920 --> 2:41:47.840 It's just all there is too. We're just hunters. Yeah, alright, guys, 2:41:47.879 --> 2:42:13.240 thanks coming down man, We appreciate it. Kay, ladies and gentlemen. 2:42:13.360 --> 2:42:16.760 As promised, we're not going to get into our our 2:42:16.840 --> 2:42:21.080 special report. And again this covers a collaborative partnership between 2:42:21.120 --> 2:42:26.200 Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership and on X, who just released 2:42:26.240 --> 2:42:30.560 a new report. It's called Inaccessible State Lands in the West, 2:42:31.000 --> 2:42:33.760 the extent of the landlocked problem and the tools to 2:42:33.840 --> 2:42:36.680 fix it. And out of the kindness of their own hearts, 2:42:37.680 --> 2:42:41.119 these two organizations tr CP and on X pulled together 2:42:41.240 --> 2:42:44.119 to try to get an assessment, to try to put 2:42:44.200 --> 2:42:48.600 their arms around the extent of the landlocked public lands 2:42:48.680 --> 2:42:52.720 problem in the American West and to help maybe present 2:42:52.840 --> 2:42:56.359 some solutions to figure it out. Again. If you remember, 2:42:56.720 --> 2:42:58.800 we recently had t r c P and on X 2:42:58.920 --> 2:43:01.959 on UH about a year ago or so to discuss 2:43:02.000 --> 2:43:04.800 the report which looked at landlocked federal lands, and they 2:43:04.879 --> 2:43:10.280 had identified nine point five two million acres of land 2:43:11.040 --> 2:43:15.039 that you and I as American taxpayers own but can't 2:43:15.160 --> 2:43:18.600 get to because they're surrounded by private land and the 2:43:18.680 --> 2:43:21.200 only way to get in there is to have permission 2:43:21.360 --> 2:43:24.480 from private landowners. Well they filed that up with this 2:43:24.640 --> 2:43:27.879 new state report. So we're talking about inaccessible public lands. 2:43:27.879 --> 2:43:31.800 Are talking about plots of ground right that are theoretically 2:43:31.879 --> 2:43:34.720 open to the public and they're owned equally by all 2:43:34.800 --> 2:43:38.920 of us as Americans, but being that they're entirely enclosed 2:43:38.959 --> 2:43:42.800 by private land, the land is unreachable unless you have 2:43:42.879 --> 2:43:46.440 permission from a private landowner. So there they are, we 2:43:46.560 --> 2:43:49.160 own them, we just can't get on them. Well, TRCP 2:43:49.240 --> 2:43:52.840 and on X wanted to investigate exactly how great the 2:43:52.959 --> 2:43:57.240 Western States landlocked problem really is and how to identify 2:43:57.360 --> 2:43:59.960 some collaborative solutions that could help open up more land 2:44:00.040 --> 2:44:03.080 and for all of us to use for hunting, fishing, 2:44:03.400 --> 2:44:06.880 outdoor recreation. And discussing this, we're joined by Joel Webster, 2:44:07.320 --> 2:44:11.000 Director of Western Lands at TRCP, Randall Williams, t r 2:44:11.120 --> 2:44:15.880 CPS Western Communications and Engagement Manager, Lisa Nichols, who's the 2:44:15.959 --> 2:44:20.120 g I S supervisor on X, and Eric Siegfried, who's 2:44:20.160 --> 2:44:23.400 the founder of on X. Now, before we get into 2:44:23.440 --> 2:44:25.199 the main thing, I had sort of given a little 2:44:25.280 --> 2:44:28.760 homework to Joel Webster where I had a question that's 2:44:28.800 --> 2:44:31.280 related to land access but not related to the report, 2:44:31.680 --> 2:44:33.640 and I wanted include in. Here's I thought was interesting, 2:44:34.240 --> 2:44:37.680 is Uh. It had come up a lot recently and 2:44:37.760 --> 2:44:40.480 talking to friends of mine, Like, let's say you're sitting 2:44:40.480 --> 2:44:43.000 there looking at a piece of private or public land 2:44:43.040 --> 2:44:45.240 on a map and there's no way to get to it, 2:44:45.360 --> 2:44:48.960 but an interstate cuts through it. Uh, And we're talking 2:44:48.959 --> 2:44:51.600 about this, like whether or not you can pull over 2:44:51.920 --> 2:44:56.320 unlimited access highway. So say, like I ninety fifteen whatever, 2:44:56.400 --> 2:44:59.280 pull over unlimited access highway and jump out of your 2:44:59.360 --> 2:45:02.880 car and go access some little chunk of public land 2:45:02.920 --> 2:45:05.520 that you've identified on X. It's funny because I was 2:45:05.560 --> 2:45:08.480 talking with this, talking to Joel about this, and then 2:45:09.040 --> 2:45:10.600 a couple of days later I had a body mind 2:45:10.680 --> 2:45:13.360 visit from out of town. He went out, went out 2:45:13.400 --> 2:45:16.560 antelope hunting, and text me away point and asked, can 2:45:16.600 --> 2:45:19.320 I legally get into this? Because he was curious can 2:45:19.360 --> 2:45:21.480 I pull over on the side of a of an 2:45:21.600 --> 2:45:26.240 interstate and head off to hunt? So here's Joel on 2:45:26.560 --> 2:45:29.480 whether or not that's okay. Do you know how there's 2:45:29.520 --> 2:45:32.880 like certain things like if you're like law abiding hunter angler, 2:45:32.920 --> 2:45:35.760 like there's certain things that you do thinking they're perfectly legal, 2:45:36.200 --> 2:45:38.720 and then you realize later that wow, actually maybe that 2:45:39.080 --> 2:45:44.000 isn't allowed, and and then you like to change your behavior, 2:45:44.080 --> 2:45:45.760 and it kind of ruins it for you after that 2:45:45.800 --> 2:45:47.760 because you thought, you know, you're perfectly fine, and this 2:45:47.879 --> 2:45:49.880 is one of those issues for me. And so I 2:45:49.959 --> 2:45:51.760 did a little digging into this. I didn't look at 2:45:51.800 --> 2:45:54.360 a lot of states. Um so this is how I 2:45:54.440 --> 2:45:57.200 understand one Wyoming, and there's state law. This is a 2:45:57.240 --> 2:46:02.760 state law stuff. There's state law cifically prohibits. Let me ask, 2:46:02.920 --> 2:46:05.240 why is it not because there's no federal oversight of 2:46:05.280 --> 2:46:08.480 the highway system, Like there's no federal enforcement on a 2:46:08.560 --> 2:46:11.920 highway system, right is Yeah, state placed and I don't 2:46:11.959 --> 2:46:14.000 pull you over for speeding on an interest not usually 2:46:14.120 --> 2:46:17.400 now depends on what you did. Yeah, that is true. 2:46:18.400 --> 2:46:23.199 Uh So the state of Wyoming, there's state laws specifically 2:46:23.280 --> 2:46:27.600 prohibits stopping along a controlled access highway. I feel like 2:46:27.600 --> 2:46:30.800 a Montana there's actually no laws saying you can't stop. 2:46:31.520 --> 2:46:34.120 Um so, actually stopping there is perfectly legal as I 2:46:34.240 --> 2:46:36.600 read it. What's illegal as it says you cannot go 2:46:36.760 --> 2:46:40.080 outside of the lines and that you must enter and 2:46:40.280 --> 2:46:43.720 exit the interstate it designated spots. And so when you 2:46:43.760 --> 2:46:46.480 see somebody in talking about Honting, they're just talking about whatever. 2:46:46.640 --> 2:46:49.119 Just whatever. And so you know when you're driving along 2:46:49.160 --> 2:46:51.240 the road and you accidentally sort of swerve over and 2:46:51.320 --> 2:46:53.440 hit the rumble strip, like you are breaking the law 2:46:53.520 --> 2:46:55.400 the same way somebody is when they pull over in 2:46:55.480 --> 2:46:58.720 park to go hunting. As I read the law, um 2:46:59.360 --> 2:47:02.879 new can its special special permits for um on and off, 2:47:02.959 --> 2:47:05.240 like you've got to get permission to do that. But 2:47:05.440 --> 2:47:08.240 but here's the thing, is I actually if you look 2:47:08.280 --> 2:47:10.520 at the Montana Access Guide, you look at the Montana 2:47:10.560 --> 2:47:13.160 Fish Walife from Parks Regulations, it says nothing about this. 2:47:13.280 --> 2:47:16.880 There's nowhere stated anywhere that I can find because it 2:47:16.920 --> 2:47:19.360 would be redundant because it's already covered in just the 2:47:19.440 --> 2:47:21.520 general highway law. Now you've you've got to go in 2:47:21.560 --> 2:47:23.600 and read statute to find it. And it took me 2:47:24.440 --> 2:47:27.440 forty minutes to find it. And uh, I don't I 2:47:27.480 --> 2:47:30.600 mean from what I understand, like I think it's it's 2:47:30.720 --> 2:47:32.320 I think it's a traffic law first off, not a 2:47:32.400 --> 2:47:35.760 game violation. And so it's like getting a speeding ticket 2:47:35.920 --> 2:47:40.400 versus being a poacher. Right, Um, But as as I 2:47:40.480 --> 2:47:43.400 understand it, like, it's not really all that you know, 2:47:43.640 --> 2:47:46.680 unless it's like actual sort of no no parking signs 2:47:46.720 --> 2:47:50.440 along the interstate. It's really not advertised anywhere that you 2:47:50.520 --> 2:47:52.320 can't do this. And so I've always assumed this look 2:47:52.440 --> 2:47:54.120 because people do it all the time, and I've never 2:47:54.200 --> 2:47:56.680 heard of anybody getting cotton. In fact, I actually know 2:47:56.720 --> 2:47:59.640 of a block management area where a portion of it. 2:48:00.000 --> 2:48:01.320 The only way I know how to get to it 2:48:01.480 --> 2:48:04.800 is by parking along the interstate UM in Montana, So 2:48:05.000 --> 2:48:06.960 which is kind of bizarre now that I know this, 2:48:07.400 --> 2:48:11.480 but that's my understanding of controlled access highways. And I 2:48:11.920 --> 2:48:14.960 would assume that there are some requirements placed upon the 2:48:15.000 --> 2:48:16.800 state in order to get federal money that they have to, 2:48:17.080 --> 2:48:19.160 you know, have these types of rules, but they're different 2:48:19.480 --> 2:48:21.920 for each state. Okay, now we're gonna move on to 2:48:22.080 --> 2:48:24.680 the on x TRC report. And I asked the question 2:48:24.840 --> 2:48:29.000 why was it important to investigate the issue of landlocked 2:48:29.280 --> 2:48:32.400 state lands in the first place. Here's Eric. Our whole 2:48:32.400 --> 2:48:35.000 team is passionate about helping people get outside. So it's 2:48:35.040 --> 2:48:37.320 just like in our DNA. So we look at these 2:48:37.560 --> 2:48:40.240 landlocked lands and we want at least make the public 2:48:40.280 --> 2:48:42.600 aware of what's out there, and we do see them 2:48:42.600 --> 2:48:46.440 as opportunities to help the public get outdoors more so 2:48:46.600 --> 2:48:49.920 that's really in our DNA and that's why we're interested. Okay, 2:48:50.000 --> 2:48:51.520 from here, I think it's important to move on to 2:48:51.800 --> 2:48:54.960 to the next thing. Um, let's get clear on what 2:48:55.160 --> 2:48:59.680 is meant by landlocked land, Like, what does that look like, 2:49:00.000 --> 2:49:04.959 what does that mean? How does someone go and determine that, Yes, 2:49:05.080 --> 2:49:09.720 in fact, a piece of public land is inaccessible or 2:49:09.959 --> 2:49:14.600 as we keep saying, landlocked. Here's Lisa explaining that and 2:49:14.680 --> 2:49:17.800 also talking a little bit about how on X obtained 2:49:18.000 --> 2:49:21.960 and analyzed the necessary data. So there's a lot of 2:49:22.080 --> 2:49:25.360 different ways to define landlocked. But what we went with 2:49:25.680 --> 2:49:29.760 for this report was public land that cannot be accessed 2:49:29.840 --> 2:49:34.360 from a public road or uh cannot be access from 2:49:34.400 --> 2:49:38.000 an adjoining piece of public land. I mean, even if 2:49:38.000 --> 2:49:41.120 you are willing to walk in, you walk forever. So 2:49:41.160 --> 2:49:44.080 if there's a ten acre parcel and there's one road 2:49:44.160 --> 2:49:46.920 that cuts through just a little corner of it, we 2:49:47.080 --> 2:49:52.520 consider that entire ten tho acre parcel as being accessible. Um, 2:49:53.200 --> 2:49:57.160 even if you have to cross topography and rivers. Um. 2:49:57.400 --> 2:50:01.240 This was just talking about legal access as opposed to 2:50:01.440 --> 2:50:04.320 logistical within the g i S department. G i S 2:50:04.400 --> 2:50:09.480 is Geographic information Systems UM or Geographic information science, and 2:50:10.240 --> 2:50:13.240 basically it's a compilation of data sets that all have 2:50:13.400 --> 2:50:17.520 a location component to them, and they're all stored into 2:50:18.160 --> 2:50:21.400 a big database UH, so that you can make maps 2:50:21.680 --> 2:50:25.920 or you can run different analyzes and understand how maybe 2:50:25.959 --> 2:50:30.000 one feature on landscape interacts or impacts another type of 2:50:30.040 --> 2:50:33.200 feature on the landscape. So UM, not only do we 2:50:33.440 --> 2:50:36.480 take the government lands data sets and the private land 2:50:36.560 --> 2:50:40.000 data sets and reconcile them with each other, UM, we 2:50:40.240 --> 2:50:44.640 also are classifying all of the government lands data so 2:50:44.879 --> 2:50:47.120 that was really key in this analysis as well. So 2:50:47.200 --> 2:50:50.920 we were able to zero in on all of the 2:50:51.360 --> 2:50:54.960 lands that had you know, the the state land ownership 2:50:55.080 --> 2:50:58.240 type attached to them UM, and then basically we were 2:50:58.320 --> 2:51:05.000 able to compare those against our extensive road database UM 2:51:05.240 --> 2:51:09.800 and figure out which parcels of state land did not 2:51:10.120 --> 2:51:14.400 have road access, and each parcel that did not have 2:51:14.600 --> 2:51:18.160 road access got flagged in a big database and then 2:51:18.920 --> 2:51:22.199 UM we basically ran through and calculated all those acreages 2:51:22.240 --> 2:51:24.840 together to get the numbers. The big challenge here is 2:51:25.360 --> 2:51:29.360 that there is no public versus private road data set 2:51:29.400 --> 2:51:32.400 available in the United States, and so we did have 2:51:32.600 --> 2:51:35.440 to kind of come up with our own definition of 2:51:35.480 --> 2:51:37.720 what a public road is based upon the data that 2:51:38.000 --> 2:51:41.879 is available. So we said anything at the county level 2:51:42.000 --> 2:51:45.000 or higher plus certain classifications of four service roads and 2:51:45.040 --> 2:51:49.640 certain classifications of BLM roads. UM. So there's a lot 2:51:49.760 --> 2:51:52.160 of areas where there's these two tracks that were like, 2:51:52.800 --> 2:51:55.080 we don't know, we can't tell if they're open or 2:51:55.120 --> 2:51:58.959 closed to the public, and so um. After we went 2:51:59.120 --> 2:52:02.680 through and had results from the federal analysis last year, 2:52:03.560 --> 2:52:05.920 some folks with t RCP actually went out to some 2:52:06.040 --> 2:52:08.040 areas where we're like, we don't know, Like we can't 2:52:08.440 --> 2:52:11.360 really tell in these specific places, like there's two tracks 2:52:11.400 --> 2:52:14.600 going out to these large areas, but we can't tell 2:52:14.640 --> 2:52:16.000 if there's a way to get to them. And I 2:52:16.040 --> 2:52:18.280 would say, what was it in like eighty or ninety 2:52:18.400 --> 2:52:21.680 percent of those those are the largest ones. So those 2:52:21.680 --> 2:52:24.320 are like edge cases. I was gonna say, we had, 2:52:24.400 --> 2:52:25.920 I mean that we were going out to some of 2:52:25.959 --> 2:52:30.280 the bigger parcels and even flying around on like Google Earth. 2:52:30.560 --> 2:52:32.360 If you go to street view, you can sort of 2:52:32.440 --> 2:52:34.240 look at what the road looks like and see if 2:52:34.280 --> 2:52:38.240 there's a private road sign UM so on X is 2:52:38.320 --> 2:52:40.160 doing some of that, but we we literally had people 2:52:40.280 --> 2:52:43.760 driving up to gates and seeing how it was marked. 2:52:44.120 --> 2:52:47.920 Most of them didn't have we're not public. Yeah, And 2:52:48.080 --> 2:52:50.879 we also worked with the BLM and Forest Service at 2:52:50.959 --> 2:52:53.400 the lands and realty level. They actually looked up the 2:52:53.480 --> 2:52:56.279 records for us well to find pieces that were gating 2:52:56.320 --> 2:52:58.800 shouldn't have been looking up just to see if there 2:52:58.840 --> 2:53:02.560 were recorded Eastman's Across because that's one of the funny 2:53:02.600 --> 2:53:05.400 things is driving around um, especially in the eastern half 2:53:05.440 --> 2:53:06.959 of this state. In other areas in the west too, 2:53:07.080 --> 2:53:10.400 is like where you'll have public roads, but ranches will 2:53:10.440 --> 2:53:13.840 kind of grow up around them, so that when you 2:53:13.879 --> 2:53:15.400 start feeling like there's no way I can be on 2:53:15.520 --> 2:53:19.960 this road where you're sort of like five yards off 2:53:20.040 --> 2:53:22.400 a guy's front step, his barns on one side of 2:53:22.440 --> 2:53:25.080 the road, his dogs are running around in the road. 2:53:26.280 --> 2:53:29.080 You can almost look in and they're eating dinner. It's 2:53:29.120 --> 2:53:31.000 like you're on the two track, but on the map 2:53:31.120 --> 2:53:34.160 it's like that's a road. And the fact that no 2:53:34.200 --> 2:53:36.400 one comes out and shoots at you, you realize like, wow, 2:53:36.520 --> 2:53:39.440 this is like a road. This two track is a 2:53:39.520 --> 2:53:43.600 public Eastman. Well, part of the problem is that most 2:53:43.959 --> 2:53:47.280 Eastman files, most Eastman documents are still on paper file. 2:53:47.320 --> 2:53:50.360 They have been digitized yet that's actually something that we're 2:53:50.360 --> 2:53:53.680 working on, UM, is to try and get the federal 2:53:53.720 --> 2:53:58.720 agencies the resources they need to turn Eastman recorded Eastmans 2:53:58.760 --> 2:54:01.400 that are still in file cabinet at local ranger districts 2:54:01.840 --> 2:54:03.920 actually into a computer system and so you can just 2:54:04.480 --> 2:54:06.280 click on them and it says this is a public 2:54:06.400 --> 2:54:09.480 road or it's not. UM. It was obviously the county side, 2:54:09.520 --> 2:54:12.360 which is a whole another nuts crack. But UM, the 2:54:12.440 --> 2:54:17.080 Forest Service nationally estimates it has thirty seven thousand easements 2:54:17.440 --> 2:54:18.920 UM some of the road he has sum or not, 2:54:19.040 --> 2:54:22.240 and only five thousand of them have been digitized. So 2:54:23.040 --> 2:54:24.920 the rest of them are sitting in file cabinets and 2:54:25.040 --> 2:54:28.640 local offices and hoping that the office doesn't burn down UM, 2:54:28.760 --> 2:54:30.920 which would be terrible if something like that to occur. 2:54:31.120 --> 2:54:35.440 But that's a real challenge with this type of work UM, 2:54:35.720 --> 2:54:36.840 and so we've had to do a lot of the 2:54:36.840 --> 2:54:38.920 work ourselves by actually trying to run down whether or 2:54:38.959 --> 2:54:41.880 not some of these places are open or closed. And 2:54:41.959 --> 2:54:44.720 again here's eric We're unique in that fact that we 2:54:44.840 --> 2:54:47.240 brought the public land data together in the private land data, 2:54:47.240 --> 2:54:50.560 and we've made this more accurate mesh. You can imagine 2:54:50.560 --> 2:54:53.600 a fabric of these parcels in the US. Really only 2:54:53.640 --> 2:54:57.080 one who has that complete meshed network, which is key 2:54:57.200 --> 2:54:59.720 to doing that analysis when you're looking having an algorithm 2:54:59.760 --> 2:55:02.520 look the corners and everything we're cross over. So we've 2:55:02.560 --> 2:55:04.840 got done that for public lands, and we've done that 2:55:04.959 --> 2:55:07.240 for roads. So the fact that we've brought all the 2:55:07.320 --> 2:55:10.880 roads data together and the landownership data together uniquely positions 2:55:10.959 --> 2:55:13.240 us to be able to do this. And this is 2:55:13.640 --> 2:55:17.560 Randall Williams chiming in. I think there's some people who 2:55:17.680 --> 2:55:21.080 probably have exclusive access to these lands, a bunch of 2:55:21.120 --> 2:55:24.280 people because this, But there's also some people that are 2:55:24.320 --> 2:55:25.960 great and they allow the public in and so it 2:55:26.040 --> 2:55:28.040 all depends on the let me let me rephrase it. 2:55:28.560 --> 2:55:30.480 I would be if I lived on the edge of 2:55:30.520 --> 2:55:34.280 that place, I would be like, um, I'd be sweating it. 2:55:35.959 --> 2:55:37.360 I would kind of want I'd be like, man, I 2:55:37.400 --> 2:55:40.000 hope people don't get worked up about how I got 2:55:40.040 --> 2:55:44.160 all this land. It's not mine. Personally. I think you'd 2:55:44.200 --> 2:55:47.240 be arranging for when you died that your your land 2:55:47.320 --> 2:55:49.840 would go to the public absolutely once I'm dead, I 2:55:49.879 --> 2:55:53.240 wouldn't care. I wouldn't care anymore. As it turns out, 2:55:53.320 --> 2:55:58.920 the volume of landlocked state public lands is pretty shocking. 2:55:59.320 --> 2:56:02.600 Joel and Lee to describe the scope and distribution of 2:56:02.720 --> 2:56:07.000 that western land as in exactly where is it and 2:56:07.160 --> 2:56:09.840 how much is it? I actually am a bit shocked 2:56:10.040 --> 2:56:13.680 about the fact that there's only forty nine. We looked 2:56:13.680 --> 2:56:15.880 at the eleven western states this time. So just the 2:56:15.959 --> 2:56:19.000 public land states, um, and why are they called the 2:56:19.080 --> 2:56:21.360 public lands because they're the states in the West that 2:56:21.440 --> 2:56:26.400 have the most public land and so um, you know, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, 2:56:26.600 --> 2:56:32.400 New Mexico, Arizona, um Idaho, Nevada, California, organ in Washington 2:56:32.720 --> 2:56:36.400 and what state am I miss in like Utah, um 2:56:36.640 --> 2:56:39.040 and so those those lands generally have just sort of 2:56:39.080 --> 2:56:42.240 a higher proportion of federal public lands than anywhere else 2:56:42.360 --> 2:56:45.160 in the country outside of Alaska, which is its own beast. 2:56:45.720 --> 2:56:48.520 It's interesting. So even the Dakotas don't come anywhere close 2:56:48.600 --> 2:56:52.120 to the Dakotas have quite a bit of public land 2:56:52.160 --> 2:56:57.600 on that western edge where there touching the public land states, 2:56:57.800 --> 2:57:00.160 But the eastern side of the coatas are more are 2:57:00.480 --> 2:57:03.360 sort of that those Great Plains type states where it's 2:57:03.400 --> 2:57:07.080 you know, corn, soybeans. Most things are privatized, um, which 2:57:07.080 --> 2:57:08.360 a lot of it has to do with just how 2:57:08.440 --> 2:57:10.480 good a farm land it is. And so it went 2:57:10.520 --> 2:57:14.320 into private lands and stayed there, private hands and stayed there. Um. 2:57:14.640 --> 2:57:17.560 But yeah, I mean, so there's only forty nine million 2:57:17.640 --> 2:57:22.480 acres of state land and there's here's the number, six 2:57:22.560 --> 2:57:26.320 point three five million acres of landlocked state lands across 2:57:26.360 --> 2:57:29.920 these eleven Western states. Um, how many total lakers of 2:57:29.959 --> 2:57:32.360 state land are there in these eleven Western states? There's 2:57:32.400 --> 2:57:37.360 forty nine million, and so six point three five million 2:57:37.520 --> 2:57:42.520 of those. So it's wasn't it yet? Six point three 2:57:42.640 --> 2:57:44.879 nine million acres? We can't get to six point three 2:57:44.959 --> 2:57:47.480 five three five million acres? We can't get that's right? 2:57:47.640 --> 2:57:51.160 And we found four of those states have over a 2:57:51.280 --> 2:57:57.080 million acres. And those are Montana again, which has one 2:57:57.160 --> 2:58:00.600 and a half million, really one point five million acres 2:58:00.640 --> 2:58:02.640 of inaccessible state that's at least do you want to 2:58:02.680 --> 2:58:07.520 run through this? Sure? So Arizona has one point three, 2:58:07.720 --> 2:58:11.680 Montana has one point five, uh, New Mexico one point 2:58:11.760 --> 2:58:15.320 three again, and Wyoming one point one million acres. Those 2:58:15.320 --> 2:58:19.680 are all the plus million states. Yeah exactly. Okay, so 2:58:20.200 --> 2:58:22.560 we know where these landlocked state lands are and we 2:58:22.640 --> 2:58:25.000 know how much of it there is, but you might 2:58:25.040 --> 2:58:27.240 be asking these questions next, like how did this come 2:58:27.280 --> 2:58:30.920 to be? What are state lands? How did states get land, 2:58:31.400 --> 2:58:34.520 what do they have the land for, and in some cases, 2:58:34.600 --> 2:58:37.000 what the hell happened to all that land. It all 2:58:37.080 --> 2:58:42.240 started back in seve um with the General Land Ordinance, 2:58:42.360 --> 2:58:44.959 which was a law passed that established the grid system. 2:58:45.040 --> 2:58:48.800 And so township UM six by six square miles is 2:58:48.920 --> 2:58:53.039 right square miles, Yeah, but six six miles by six 2:58:53.160 --> 2:58:57.400 miles um individual sections thirty six seven within each township. 2:58:57.560 --> 2:58:59.960 So that basically the whole western side of the country 2:59:00.000 --> 2:59:04.480 three um was divided up into these this grid system 2:59:05.320 --> 2:59:08.640 UM and a lot of other states as well. Yeah, 2:59:08.720 --> 2:59:12.320 but it's I mean, so I started has a township 2:59:12.400 --> 2:59:14.400 like a township system that was the West back in 2:59:14.440 --> 2:59:16.440 the day. Yeah, they have a township system and they 2:59:16.480 --> 2:59:18.920 have and they have like school trust lands that sit 2:59:19.040 --> 2:59:22.160 on that township system. It's even like a specified number. 2:59:22.560 --> 2:59:25.680 So yeah, it's the the old Northwest Territory. So it's 2:59:25.920 --> 2:59:29.040 you know, how do you bring order and pose order 2:59:29.160 --> 2:59:31.600 on a territory landscape that you really don't have any 2:59:32.840 --> 2:59:37.880 understanding of familiarity with. UM. So yeah, it kind of 2:59:38.000 --> 2:59:40.480 rolls westward as the country does, and it's what makes 2:59:40.560 --> 2:59:44.440 corner crossing so fun to talk about. Yeah. UM. But 2:59:44.760 --> 2:59:47.359 so it started in eighteen o three, was the first state, Ohio, 2:59:47.680 --> 2:59:49.840 to get a land grant. And so what the federal 2:59:49.879 --> 2:59:53.480 government did is they passed these enabling acts UM where 2:59:53.480 --> 2:59:58.320 they actually gave individual states UM starting with just one 2:59:58.400 --> 3:00:01.760 section per township, so one out every thirty six acres 3:00:01.879 --> 3:00:05.040 in that state, UM would get a section, starting with 3:00:05.080 --> 3:00:08.480 Ohio in eighteen o three. And so the Feds say, like, 3:00:08.520 --> 3:00:10.480 you guys are gonna become a state. You're like a 3:00:10.520 --> 3:00:13.440 little state, You're Ohio. Now you're gonna become a state, 3:00:13.520 --> 3:00:18.119 and we're going to gift to you the state one 3:00:18.320 --> 3:00:22.640 out of every thirty six square miles that you own. 3:00:22.760 --> 3:00:26.200 That's right, That's how it started, and for the purpose 3:00:26.320 --> 3:00:33.039 of supporting public institutions, generally schools. And so they started 3:00:33.080 --> 3:00:36.160 with Ohio and there's I think twenty nine states got 3:00:37.240 --> 3:00:42.039 their lands this way, and early on there were very 3:00:42.080 --> 3:00:44.920 few restrictions on how that money would be used and 3:00:45.120 --> 3:00:48.000 so most of the states just sort of sold off 3:00:48.080 --> 3:00:51.400 the lands really states before in eighteen fifty, But was 3:00:51.480 --> 3:00:53.480 that the intent when they gave him the land? Was 3:00:53.520 --> 3:00:56.280 the intent like here go sell it? Well intent think 3:00:56.360 --> 3:01:00.200 the intent evolved. But there's some states like Mississippi that 3:01:00.320 --> 3:01:02.120 held on to their state lands. I guess sort of 3:01:02.440 --> 3:01:04.240 early on, like we're gonna hold onto these and we're 3:01:04.240 --> 3:01:06.080 going to generate revenue over the long term. And they 3:01:06.080 --> 3:01:07.920 actually had a commitment to that. They played the smart 3:01:08.000 --> 3:01:10.400 they played the smart thing, and like Ohio has, from 3:01:10.440 --> 3:01:13.720 what I can tell, nothing left um. At least there's 3:01:13.760 --> 3:01:15.760 not enough acres there that I can find any record 3:01:15.800 --> 3:01:19.480 of there being anything left UM. And a lot of 3:01:19.560 --> 3:01:21.600 states just went and sold it along the way, however, 3:01:22.040 --> 3:01:23.800 and as a result of that, they were sort of 3:01:23.879 --> 3:01:27.800 misusing the money. So here's an example Alabama, UM, you know, 3:01:28.080 --> 3:01:31.760 near Mississippi. Mississippi held onto their lands. Alabama sold off 3:01:31.800 --> 3:01:35.120 their lands and like they invested in stuff. Really like 3:01:35.920 --> 3:01:37.400 you find that there's sort of a theme and a 3:01:37.520 --> 3:01:40.680 state that's right, even like these neighboring states that two 3:01:40.720 --> 3:01:42.400 sort of different approaches. And we find that in the 3:01:42.480 --> 3:01:46.040 West today, and we'll get into that. Um, but so 3:01:46.160 --> 3:01:48.640 the state of Alabama like invest they sold off a 3:01:48.680 --> 3:01:51.240 bunch of their lands. They invested the money and stuff 3:01:51.320 --> 3:01:54.440 that failed, and so they had basically nothing to show 3:01:54.560 --> 3:01:57.280 for it. But also what they would do in Alabama 3:01:57.800 --> 3:02:00.320 is um, so if you lived within the town ship 3:02:01.120 --> 3:02:03.720 where that section was, you were the ones that decided 3:02:03.720 --> 3:02:06.280 whether or not to be sold. And so, which is 3:02:06.400 --> 3:02:09.080 totally corrupt, right you have like does my neighbor sell 3:02:09.120 --> 3:02:11.840 their property or not? Yes, so I can buy it, um. 3:02:12.400 --> 3:02:14.400 But then they also would give out that's like the 3:02:14.720 --> 3:02:17.200 that's like where local control kind of goes a little off, now, 3:02:17.680 --> 3:02:20.280 that's right. And they'd also give out personal loans. They 3:02:20.320 --> 3:02:22.520 had a school fund that they created, but it's kind 3:02:22.520 --> 3:02:24.880 of like an endowment with the idea that the interest 3:02:24.959 --> 3:02:28.320 would go towards um those schools. And they give out 3:02:28.400 --> 3:02:31.560 personal loans to people in Alabama with never actually make 3:02:31.680 --> 3:02:34.520 them pay them back. Um. And then they also did 3:02:34.560 --> 3:02:37.800 like nine year leases and so if you were had 3:02:37.840 --> 3:02:39.080 a grazing lease or whatever, you can do it for 3:02:39.160 --> 3:02:41.560 ninety nine years and probably I don't know if the 3:02:41.680 --> 3:02:43.800 terms were fixed, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were. 3:02:43.879 --> 3:02:46.920 And so like in the eighteen forties, they were making 3:02:47.640 --> 3:02:50.640 year leases that didn't expire until the nineteen forties, which 3:02:50.840 --> 3:02:53.000 is a long time, right, And so that's sort of 3:02:53.040 --> 3:02:56.240 an example of how states sort of got rid of 3:02:56.280 --> 3:02:59.160 their lands UM. And then in the West, so where 3:02:59.200 --> 3:03:04.280 this report is the eleven Western states UM. Starting well, 3:03:04.320 --> 3:03:06.959 California is the first Western state to get become a state, 3:03:07.000 --> 3:03:09.840 and they actually got section sixteen again. But after that 3:03:10.120 --> 3:03:12.800 they started getting sections sixteen and thirty six, and so 3:03:12.879 --> 3:03:16.720 they got two square miles per township UM. And so 3:03:16.959 --> 3:03:21.600 like Oregon, Montana, Idaho UM, a number of states got 3:03:21.920 --> 3:03:24.640 two sections per township. And then at the very end 3:03:24.680 --> 3:03:27.760 they got even more generous and they gave Utah, Arizona, 3:03:27.840 --> 3:03:32.680 New Mexico four sections. So how does this system work 3:03:32.800 --> 3:03:37.840 out If there's already someone occupying the designated land that's 3:03:37.879 --> 3:03:41.080 supposed to go to the state, what does the state do? 3:03:41.280 --> 3:03:45.160 Then they had this thing called in lieu selections, And 3:03:45.320 --> 3:03:48.320 so if it was down in New Mexico, right, which 3:03:48.360 --> 3:03:50.320 is a very late state to become a part of 3:03:50.400 --> 3:03:52.520 the Union, if it was you know, let's see a 3:03:52.560 --> 3:03:55.600 Mexican land grant for example, or an Indian reservation, or 3:03:55.640 --> 3:03:58.120 it was already private um. They were not able to 3:03:58.160 --> 3:04:00.080 select those lands that then were able to select. They 3:04:00.120 --> 3:04:02.440 were not they were not giving those um In that 3:04:02.560 --> 3:04:05.039 case it was six sixteen, thirty two, and thirty six 3:04:05.120 --> 3:04:07.040 and those later ones they got four those four sections 3:04:07.200 --> 3:04:09.240 really like the deal kept getting better, it keep getting 3:04:09.240 --> 3:04:11.160 met it, but they were still like spaced apart, and 3:04:11.280 --> 3:04:14.200 so they're all separated, which is still creates the same 3:04:14.320 --> 3:04:17.160 arbitrary it scattered pick does. But then they were able 3:04:17.200 --> 3:04:20.920 to correct select these in lieu of areas. And that's 3:04:20.959 --> 3:04:24.200 where we get some of these big chunks of landlocked land. 3:04:24.240 --> 3:04:26.400 And so they'd be like, well, we can't have any 3:04:26.440 --> 3:04:29.560 of there's like this big you know, eight acre land 3:04:29.600 --> 3:04:32.160 grand or whatever. We can't have any of those lands 3:04:32.200 --> 3:04:34.480 inside of there. And so they go select some really 3:04:34.520 --> 3:04:36.560 big areas somewhere else. And then they might be like that, 3:04:36.600 --> 3:04:39.080 I'm gonna take all four of my my sections, my 3:04:39.160 --> 3:04:41.160 square miles, I want them all together. That's right. So 3:04:41.200 --> 3:04:44.039 I got a sweet little chunk, were thirty sections together 3:04:44.160 --> 3:04:46.040 or whatever, And and so you get some really some 3:04:46.160 --> 3:04:49.320 significant holdings. Maybe not, And so that's that's going to 3:04:49.400 --> 3:04:51.760 how that worked, which has left as legacy of all 3:04:51.800 --> 3:04:57.760 these isolated parcels um and then states took to either 3:04:57.879 --> 3:05:00.800 hung on them or sold them off. That's right. Now 3:05:00.840 --> 3:05:03.000 we'll get into something you might have heard about, which 3:05:03.120 --> 3:05:08.680 is the political and social push to transfer federally managed 3:05:08.800 --> 3:05:12.600 lands over to the states. Why is that idea so 3:05:13.080 --> 3:05:18.480 distasteful to so many hunters, anglers and conservationists, Like what 3:05:18.560 --> 3:05:21.199 are they so afraid of? Basically, there's a whole idea 3:05:21.280 --> 3:05:23.640 that the federal government should transfer their lands to the states. Right, 3:05:23.640 --> 3:05:25.080 A couple of years ago, there was a big push 3:05:25.160 --> 3:05:27.440 for it coming out of Utah. It comes up now 3:05:27.520 --> 3:05:34.280 and then yeah, and and and um and and a 3:05:34.360 --> 3:05:36.280 lot of us pointing to the history of state lands 3:05:36.320 --> 3:05:38.200 for why that's the terrible idea, because some states have 3:05:38.320 --> 3:05:42.600 been really bad about selling their lands and it was 3:05:42.640 --> 3:05:44.840 such a bad there was such a bad history with it. 3:05:44.959 --> 3:05:49.160 That's the federal government actually started to impose restrictions on 3:05:49.360 --> 3:05:52.720 land sales towards the end of westward expansion because the 3:05:52.800 --> 3:05:56.880 system was being so abused by the Western states as 3:05:56.920 --> 3:06:00.200 part of the terms of the land grant. That's right, Yeah, yeah, 3:06:00.200 --> 3:06:02.240 I can see to be like if you left your 3:06:02.879 --> 3:06:05.800 like you have like a wayward kid and you leave him. 3:06:06.080 --> 3:06:08.120 That's why we have trust trust fund kids. Yeah, I 3:06:08.120 --> 3:06:09.840 mean this is like they couldn't trust the kids to 3:06:09.840 --> 3:06:11.480 give them all the money. Well, this is like because 3:06:11.520 --> 3:06:13.320 you'll just blow it if you're give them a little 3:06:13.320 --> 3:06:15.720 to your kids graduating from high school, right and you 3:06:16.040 --> 3:06:17.920 you like give him a used car or something to 3:06:17.959 --> 3:06:20.040 get started. And that's sort of how I mean. The 3:06:20.120 --> 3:06:23.560 intention of it is to bring these other states up. Uh, 3:06:24.240 --> 3:06:26.880 what's your equal footing? Equal footing, bring them up on 3:06:26.959 --> 3:06:31.800 equal footing with the current existing states. So they had 3:06:31.800 --> 3:06:33.920 to treat like children, but some of those kids, yeah, 3:06:34.080 --> 3:06:35.920 and so like here's you know, so it's so you're 3:06:35.959 --> 3:06:38.640 not it's sort of to break that dependency on the 3:06:38.680 --> 3:06:42.320 federal government for public services, and also not to put 3:06:42.360 --> 3:06:45.200 them at a disadvantage with the thirteen colonies, plus the 3:06:45.280 --> 3:06:48.560 three states that had already and become states, Like they 3:06:48.640 --> 3:06:52.240 already had institutions in place, and so you know New 3:06:52.360 --> 3:06:54.680 York or Massachusetts for example, they've been around a while, 3:06:54.720 --> 3:06:57.000 they had institutions, and so when they're creating these new states, 3:06:57.400 --> 3:06:59.320 they didn't want them to be at such a disadvantage 3:06:59.400 --> 3:07:01.680 that they created this thing called the equal footing doctrine, 3:07:01.720 --> 3:07:03.000 and this was part of it where they gave him 3:07:03.040 --> 3:07:06.360 these these these state lands, these trust lands. At the 3:07:06.400 --> 3:07:09.200 time they were just called school lands, um with the 3:07:09.280 --> 3:07:11.400 thinking that they could raise money off of those too, 3:07:11.480 --> 3:07:13.760 to establish these institutions that would put them on equal 3:07:13.800 --> 3:07:16.480 footing with the early States. When we were young, we 3:07:16.560 --> 3:07:19.040 would use we would go down I didn't have a 3:07:19.120 --> 3:07:21.320 Platt book, but you could go down to the township 3:07:21.440 --> 3:07:26.720 office in photo copy the Plat books at the township's 3:07:26.760 --> 3:07:28.600 office to find out who own what. Then you'd go 3:07:28.879 --> 3:07:31.440 talking to the column or whatever and ours would even 3:07:31.520 --> 3:07:34.920 our ours were labeled on these maps just school trust 3:07:35.040 --> 3:07:37.800 land in Michigan, and it had like a different color 3:07:37.840 --> 3:07:40.640 in Michigan has some It is interesting to see how 3:07:41.040 --> 3:07:44.080 states actually learned from other states over time their mistakes. 3:07:44.720 --> 3:07:47.840 And you can tell that Congress obviously learned and they 3:07:47.879 --> 3:07:51.160 started making these rules as it went on. So give 3:07:51.200 --> 3:07:53.240 it to you, but you can't just run out and 3:07:53.280 --> 3:07:55.400 sell it. It's like after the first three kids sell 3:07:55.480 --> 3:07:57.760 those used cars and just blow it on booze and 3:07:58.200 --> 3:08:02.080 whatever else. You know. They could sell it, but they 3:08:02.320 --> 3:08:05.040 put conditions around the sale and so that they had 3:08:05.040 --> 3:08:06.840 to have a permanent fund, and then only the interest 3:08:06.920 --> 3:08:10.200 from that permanent fund could be used to support the schools. 3:08:10.200 --> 3:08:13.440 And they also set minimum sale prices so much like 3:08:13.480 --> 3:08:15.800 trust fund killing. So they were these states were like 3:08:15.879 --> 3:08:18.440 selling these things to their buddies, you know, for nothing, 3:08:19.200 --> 3:08:22.119 and and so then they you know, they set minimum 3:08:22.160 --> 3:08:24.360 prices to make it so they wouldn't you know, they 3:08:24.400 --> 3:08:27.199 wouldn't have the incentive to do that. Okay, So here's 3:08:27.200 --> 3:08:31.000 what's next. The crew at on X and t RCP, 3:08:31.160 --> 3:08:33.600 they're not really comfortable and it's not really their job 3:08:33.800 --> 3:08:36.360 to sort of like, uh, talk about who should be 3:08:36.400 --> 3:08:39.280 ashamed of themselves and who historically did a good job 3:08:39.400 --> 3:08:41.520 and who did a bad job through here to help. 3:08:41.640 --> 3:08:44.000 But you might ask who are the good apples? I mean, 3:08:44.480 --> 3:08:47.600 which states do a good job of retaining their lands 3:08:47.640 --> 3:08:50.880 in a way that serves the public, or to do 3:08:51.000 --> 3:08:55.680 a good job of managing access on their lands. State 3:08:55.760 --> 3:08:58.680 trust lands were given to these states to generate revenue 3:08:59.040 --> 3:09:03.000 for beneficiary, okay, And so they're not multiple use lands. 3:09:03.040 --> 3:09:05.760 They're not like national forest lands or BLM lands where 3:09:06.520 --> 3:09:11.959 wildlife and recreation are supposed to have equal consideration with development. 3:09:12.000 --> 3:09:13.600 And so you could actually say we're not going to 3:09:13.760 --> 3:09:17.160 develop a lot of these lands because of these other values. 3:09:17.200 --> 3:09:19.360 That's not how trust lands are managed. They do need 3:09:19.400 --> 3:09:26.040 to generate profit. However, some states have decided most states 3:09:26.120 --> 3:09:28.640 in the West, actually almost all states in the West 3:09:29.080 --> 3:09:34.760 have decided that recreation UM can be a part of 3:09:35.520 --> 3:09:39.320 that management approach for generating profit or it's compatle compatible 3:09:39.600 --> 3:09:42.120 with the idea that these lands that be managed to 3:09:42.160 --> 3:09:44.440 generate profit. Right, and so the idea that the public 3:09:44.520 --> 3:09:46.240 be a part of it, that they serve some sort 3:09:46.240 --> 3:09:49.200 of larger public good is compatible with the idea that 3:09:49.280 --> 3:09:52.000 these lands generate profit. There's another side to it, which 3:09:52.040 --> 3:09:54.880 is a much more sort of dollars and cents and 3:09:55.520 --> 3:09:59.480 you know, the state because it is considered more of 3:10:00.480 --> 3:10:03.760 something they have to deal with. And I think when 3:10:03.800 --> 3:10:07.360 you look at if a state um is doing a 3:10:07.440 --> 3:10:10.600 really good job from the perspective of hunters and anglers 3:10:11.160 --> 3:10:14.720 in terms of how they manage their state trust slans UM, 3:10:15.120 --> 3:10:16.400 the ones to do a really good job have more 3:10:16.400 --> 3:10:20.800 of a welcome at versus um a you can't welcome 3:10:20.840 --> 3:10:23.039 at versus you can't find anything about it, or it's 3:10:23.040 --> 3:10:25.680 a no trespassing sign. And a couple of states that 3:10:25.720 --> 3:10:29.440 have done a really good job. UM our Montana for example, 3:10:29.760 --> 3:10:33.160 where UM in the state, nearly all the lands are 3:10:33.240 --> 3:10:36.640 open and available for the public. UM. They have some 3:10:36.760 --> 3:10:39.520 basic rules about you can't shoot within a quarter mile 3:10:39.600 --> 3:10:43.200 of an occupied structure. UM. You know, you can only 3:10:43.320 --> 3:10:46.640 drive on routes that are open, and things like that. UM. 3:10:46.840 --> 3:10:50.280 And Montana Fishwife and Parks. UM. When you buy your 3:10:50.640 --> 3:10:53.160 conservation license to hunt for hunting and fishing, you spend 3:10:53.200 --> 3:10:55.680 two dollars in the state of Montana, and that money 3:10:55.879 --> 3:10:58.840 goes to support the schools in the state. They generate 3:10:59.040 --> 3:11:01.960 about a million dollars a year through that UM and 3:11:02.040 --> 3:11:05.240 and and as a result, it's actually benefit benefiting those 3:11:05.320 --> 3:11:09.080 schools UM in a way that also supports public recreation. 3:11:09.240 --> 3:11:12.280 And also the state of Montana has been great in 3:11:12.360 --> 3:11:15.840 the fact that I'm talking about landlocked lands. You know, 3:11:15.959 --> 3:11:19.400 they're being about a million and a half federal landlocked 3:11:19.480 --> 3:11:21.640 lands and a million and a half state landlocked lands 3:11:21.800 --> 3:11:24.880 in the state of Montana. UM. The state has actually 3:11:24.879 --> 3:11:28.959 created programs. UM. There's one called the mt Plan, which 3:11:29.040 --> 3:11:31.920 actually is a grants program where they can give out 3:11:32.000 --> 3:11:34.320 grants to create easements across private land that would open 3:11:34.400 --> 3:11:37.840 up these public lands. UM. Montana Fish Wife and Parks 3:11:37.879 --> 3:11:40.160 has a couple of programs. One again is a brand 3:11:40.200 --> 3:11:43.240 new one they just passed UM that again would enable 3:11:43.280 --> 3:11:45.480 the state to spend money on establishing easements. Another one 3:11:45.480 --> 3:11:48.560 who provide tax incentives for landowners who allow the public 3:11:48.600 --> 3:11:51.920 across their private land to access these state lands. And also, yeah, 3:11:52.240 --> 3:11:54.400 it's really cool stuff and this is something that's bipartisan's 3:11:54.400 --> 3:11:56.920 coming out of the legislature. Montana's is just sort of 3:11:56.920 --> 3:12:00.800 a shining example. Um. You know, wash intends another state 3:12:00.879 --> 3:12:04.400 that's doing a really good job. Um. They you you 3:12:04.520 --> 3:12:07.920 buy an an access pass US thirty dollars a year, 3:12:08.040 --> 3:12:10.320 which supports part of that go to supporting that that 3:12:10.480 --> 3:12:14.160 state trust revenue. Um. But those lands are open and 3:12:14.240 --> 3:12:16.640 accessible and you know they've got good signage like that. 3:12:16.680 --> 3:12:19.480 You go to their website, it's very welcoming. Um. And 3:12:19.520 --> 3:12:21.440 so that's something that they've done. You know, New Mexico 3:12:21.720 --> 3:12:24.840 and Arizona are two other states that actually charge of 3:12:24.959 --> 3:12:28.320 fee um for the public to use these trust lands, 3:12:28.360 --> 3:12:31.200 which because they're multiple use lands, I think is just fine. 3:12:31.280 --> 3:12:33.520 That's the way to support the trust responsibilities that also 3:12:33.600 --> 3:12:36.879 support the public. And now we'll get into what al 3:12:37.000 --> 3:12:40.520 call the bad apples at least bad from my perspective, 3:12:40.600 --> 3:12:43.600 as you know, like a general outdoorsman who likes a 3:12:43.680 --> 3:12:45.840 roam around outside a whole bunch. The sort of flip 3:12:45.920 --> 3:12:50.879 side to that are states that um would would manage 3:12:50.959 --> 3:12:54.880 state trust lands for exclusive use, and so you'd lease 3:12:55.000 --> 3:12:58.840 them to an individual who basically would control access to 3:12:58.920 --> 3:13:03.200 those lands. And Colorado is the only state in the 3:13:03.280 --> 3:13:05.480 Mountain West. What are the eleven western states that we 3:13:05.560 --> 3:13:09.160 looked at that actually does not allow public access to 3:13:09.760 --> 3:13:12.960 the vast majority of its trust holdings. It's so Oncolorado, 3:13:13.120 --> 3:13:17.520 Like you know what John Denver Blissen, any it just 3:13:17.600 --> 3:13:19.440 doesn't doesn't it feel on you you loose to live 3:13:19.480 --> 3:13:21.600 in Colorado? You know, he doesn't feel on Colorado. Like 3:13:21.879 --> 3:13:24.200 I agree. I wasn't really aware of it when I 3:13:24.280 --> 3:13:27.240 lived there, and it just never came across. Yeah. But yeah, 3:13:27.280 --> 3:13:29.760 you remember, like the outdoor retailers, they got all mad 3:13:29.840 --> 3:13:32.080 at the state of Utah. They're like, my god, We're 3:13:32.120 --> 3:13:37.160 going down to Colorado because they do it right. Mm hmm. Yeah. No, 3:13:37.280 --> 3:13:39.720 it doesn't seem to fall in line with the way 3:13:39.760 --> 3:13:45.040 they act normally. And so Colorado has almost two point 3:13:45.280 --> 3:13:48.879 eight million acres of state trust lands, how many landlocked? 3:13:50.040 --> 3:13:55.119 Four and thirty five thousand acres are landlocked, but one 3:13:55.360 --> 3:14:00.560 point seven eight million acres of accessible land are closed 3:14:00.600 --> 3:14:04.080 to the public by state policy. God, that just seems 3:14:04.760 --> 3:14:06.440 And also if you think, I said, you did a 3:14:06.480 --> 3:14:08.000 great job of land out how it came to be, 3:14:08.200 --> 3:14:10.280 and you pointed out the intent was not that people 3:14:10.320 --> 3:14:13.040 could go run around messing around, I understand it. It 3:14:13.240 --> 3:14:17.160 just feels as though, what a missed opportunity. Well, so 3:14:18.760 --> 3:14:21.360 I want to point out that Colorado, so they do 3:14:21.560 --> 3:14:24.280 have a program where the State Landboard in Colorado, Parks 3:14:24.320 --> 3:14:28.280 and Wildlife are partnering to make lands accessible. Um And 3:14:28.800 --> 3:14:32.480 up until this hunting season there were um they have 3:14:32.480 --> 3:14:34.959 a hunter program like a sportsman's program. Plus there's also 3:14:35.000 --> 3:14:37.000 there's some lands that they leave for state parks in 3:14:37.120 --> 3:14:41.039 wildlife management areas that are open to the public. It's 3:14:41.040 --> 3:14:44.280 about five hundred and fifty eight thousand acres total there 3:14:44.280 --> 3:14:46.240 and this year they're actually gonna open up another hundred 3:14:46.280 --> 3:14:49.520 thousand acres through that program, with the intent that they 3:14:49.600 --> 3:14:54.240 opened up another four thousand acres in the next two years, 3:14:54.520 --> 3:14:58.120 which would bring the state total to write around a 3:14:58.280 --> 3:15:03.280 million acres U of land accessible to sportsman, and so 3:15:03.400 --> 3:15:06.000 I think that you know, they deserve a pat on 3:15:06.120 --> 3:15:09.160 the back for that. You take a step back and 3:15:09.240 --> 3:15:11.800 you compare them to all the other states in the West. 3:15:12.000 --> 3:15:15.320 They're still the only state that will have less than 3:15:15.760 --> 3:15:19.320 half of their land accessible to the public. And one 3:15:19.360 --> 3:15:22.000 of the things too, even if it's sitting there not 3:15:22.200 --> 3:15:25.520 actively being used. Yeah, if even it doesn't have a 3:15:25.600 --> 3:15:28.200 lease on it for recreation, you can't use it unless 3:15:28.240 --> 3:15:31.400 there's it's unless it's at least two CPW Colorado Parks 3:15:31.520 --> 3:15:35.560 wild Life in that state real quick, and that state, 3:15:35.600 --> 3:15:38.680 let's say there's a Colorado, you find a you guys 3:15:38.720 --> 3:15:42.120 do your report, and you find a landlocked state section 3:15:42.160 --> 3:15:47.880 in Colorado surrounded by a cattle ranch. Okay, Um, is 3:15:48.000 --> 3:15:56.039 that operator of that cattle ranch prohibited? Like he doesn't 3:15:56.080 --> 3:15:58.279 necessarily have rights to go mess around there's like anybody 3:15:58.280 --> 3:16:00.840 else does. Right, It's theoretically he could have this chunk 3:16:00.879 --> 3:16:02.360 of land and his thing that he's not supposed to 3:16:02.400 --> 3:16:04.200 walk across. I think they would have to at least 3:16:04.280 --> 3:16:07.640 that for recreation if they wanted to. Okay, so it's 3:16:07.640 --> 3:16:10.440 not de fact or his land. He might if he was. 3:16:10.520 --> 3:16:13.680 If he's like super law abiding, there could feasibly be 3:16:13.760 --> 3:16:15.720 a situation in which he's like, I can't even go 3:16:15.840 --> 3:16:19.760 on it, and I own the periphery of it. And 3:16:20.040 --> 3:16:23.160 here's something that you know, we uncovered sort of done 3:16:23.200 --> 3:16:25.880 some research that makes this all a little bit more 3:16:26.280 --> 3:16:32.800 bothersome is that the people of Colorado change the Colorado 3:16:32.920 --> 3:16:36.720 Constitution to require that state trust lands, in addition to 3:16:36.800 --> 3:16:40.640 being managed for sort of sustainable profit, not maximum profit, 3:16:41.120 --> 3:16:44.840 that they also be managed for wildlife and aesthetic values 3:16:45.080 --> 3:16:48.119 for the long term and sort of for future generations 3:16:48.160 --> 3:16:50.200 of Colorado's And I'm sort of paraphrasing there, but that 3:16:50.280 --> 3:16:52.280 actually has stated in their constitution, and that was a 3:16:52.400 --> 3:16:55.320 change that was made by the people of Colorado. But 3:16:55.440 --> 3:16:58.400 yet it's and that's something that I'm not aware of 3:16:58.480 --> 3:17:00.520 any other state in the way to having. And so 3:17:00.560 --> 3:17:03.200 you could theoretically said their constitution is the most public 3:17:03.240 --> 3:17:06.320 access friendly of any state with state trust lands, but 3:17:06.440 --> 3:17:10.920 yet they're sort of management of recreation is the least friendly. 3:17:11.040 --> 3:17:13.000 And so I want to give him an a for 3:17:13.120 --> 3:17:18.119 this recent sort of project UM to help expand access UM, 3:17:18.520 --> 3:17:20.960 but they have to do it three more times to 3:17:21.120 --> 3:17:25.800 be sort of in parody with like Montana. It's like 3:17:25.879 --> 3:17:27.800 a super bad kid who all of a sudden, like 3:17:28.240 --> 3:17:30.760 isn't quite so bad. Well, it's good, they did it good, 3:17:30.800 --> 3:17:33.520 they did the right things. Great. Yeah, but if you'd 3:17:33.520 --> 3:17:36.400 like But if you if you compare it to other 3:17:36.560 --> 3:17:39.840 states based on what lands are open, what lands are not, 3:17:40.879 --> 3:17:43.879 it is the one outlier. And there's a couple other 3:17:44.000 --> 3:17:47.760 states outside of the sort of Mountain West that least 3:17:47.800 --> 3:17:52.120 their state trust lands, UM, just for sort of private use. 3:17:52.160 --> 3:17:55.880 And those are Mississippi, Oklahoma, and Nebraska. Those are the 3:17:55.959 --> 3:17:59.200 ones I'm aware of. But UM, state trust lanes in 3:17:59.240 --> 3:18:01.160 Alabama open. They don't have a lot left, like twenty 3:18:01.200 --> 3:18:04.600 eight thousand or something like that. UM, Minnesota, those lands 3:18:04.640 --> 3:18:08.960 are open. How about Texas? Texas didn't get land grants 3:18:09.000 --> 3:18:11.640 the same way, neither in Alaska because they came into 3:18:12.280 --> 3:18:14.680 well it's just a different state. I don't know the 3:18:14.800 --> 3:18:16.760 history of Texas. I do know that they did not 3:18:17.080 --> 3:18:20.800 get their grants the same way. UM, and they're probably 3:18:20.840 --> 3:18:23.200 I don't want to know handouts. I don't There was 3:18:23.280 --> 3:18:26.920 no federal land in Texas for the way, there was 3:18:26.959 --> 3:18:28.920 no federal lands, So that was one reason the feds 3:18:28.959 --> 3:18:30.920 were doing. That was like, instead of being taxed on 3:18:31.000 --> 3:18:34.640 this federal land, we're gonna give you these state lands 3:18:34.720 --> 3:18:39.080 to help you. But I think Texas did get some 3:18:39.240 --> 3:18:41.280 sort of land grants, but it was just a whole 3:18:41.360 --> 3:18:47.800 different deal. Um, Hawaii, Texas, Alaska, they all they're kind 3:18:47.840 --> 3:18:52.959 of unique. Then there's a different category of bad apples. 3:18:53.280 --> 3:18:57.160 States that sold off their public state lands and don't 3:18:57.280 --> 3:18:59.880 have it anymore. I think we need to talk about 3:19:00.440 --> 3:19:02.840 the oldest kids. Those are the ones that might be 3:19:02.959 --> 3:19:05.440 even worse than some of the ones we just talked about. 3:19:06.440 --> 3:19:10.080 They were granted over a million, maybe sometimes two million 3:19:10.160 --> 3:19:13.440 acres of state tress lands, and they don't really have 3:19:13.600 --> 3:19:16.880 any right now, So it could be all these are 3:19:16.920 --> 3:19:19.080 mainly in the Midwest. As you go east to west, 3:19:19.240 --> 3:19:23.000 you're basically going from oldest kids to the youngest. So 3:19:23.400 --> 3:19:25.320 I mean, those are probably the worst. It could be 3:19:25.360 --> 3:19:30.039 a completely different game in Iowa or Kansas doesn't have any. 3:19:30.080 --> 3:19:32.680 They sold them off if I mean they were granted 3:19:35.480 --> 3:19:37.520 Yeah in Kansas, man, like they had two point nine 3:19:37.560 --> 3:19:40.560 million acres. Could you imagine Kansas got good hunting like 3:19:40.640 --> 3:19:42.760 if they had retained those if they were open to 3:19:42.840 --> 3:19:46.360 the public, My question is now out of those states, 3:19:46.480 --> 3:19:48.240 these like they're the worst of the kids, because we 3:19:48.280 --> 3:19:50.200 feel like they sold off all the lands, but did 3:19:50.280 --> 3:19:53.640 any of them then sort of shine because they have 3:19:53.840 --> 3:19:56.279 something to show for it. Although they don't have these lands, 3:19:56.680 --> 3:19:58.920 they didn't sell them off to their bodies and and 3:19:59.280 --> 3:20:02.240 then squad of the money on wine and song as 3:20:02.240 --> 3:20:04.840 to you said, but they do have the best institutions 3:20:04.879 --> 3:20:09.000 across the country. Or people spend money on song, like 3:20:09.120 --> 3:20:12.000 in the same wine women in song like you gather 3:20:12.120 --> 3:20:16.240 You mean like they bought alcohol, like they took the 3:20:16.320 --> 3:20:19.160 engagement prostitution or took women out to eat. But what's 3:20:19.160 --> 3:20:23.360 the song part live like concert tickets? Yeah, it must 3:20:23.400 --> 3:20:28.480 have been the opera karaoke machine, you know, karaoke machine 3:20:30.360 --> 3:20:33.320 in karaoke eyes might have not looked into that, right. 3:20:33.480 --> 3:20:36.160 I do not know the size of every state's permanent fund, 3:20:36.240 --> 3:20:38.880 their endowment for their schools. I do know that states 3:20:39.080 --> 3:20:42.560 like Arizona, New Mexico have done quite well, and they've 3:20:42.640 --> 3:20:45.280 retained the vast majority of their states. They've monetized their 3:20:45.320 --> 3:20:48.400 lands without selling them. That's right, um, And well, one thing, 3:20:48.440 --> 3:20:51.680 Arizona has been very selective about what they sell and 3:20:51.879 --> 3:20:54.280 so like they have lands in like Merria County down 3:20:54.360 --> 3:20:56.600 where Phoenix is, and so they've been able to sell 3:20:56.640 --> 3:20:58.640 that money for it's an absolute toime that that land 3:20:58.680 --> 3:21:01.040 for an absolute ton of money, UM, but it's a 3:21:01.120 --> 3:21:04.240 general policy they've really refrained from selling lands and so 3:21:04.280 --> 3:21:06.560 they've been able to generate a lot of revenue New Mexico, 3:21:07.400 --> 3:21:09.880 I mean, the Premian basins down there, UM, oil and 3:21:09.920 --> 3:21:11.680 gas is a big issue, and so they've leased a 3:21:11.720 --> 3:21:13.200 lot of their lands for oil and gas and that's 3:21:13.240 --> 3:21:17.040 really um more of a factor of just having a 3:21:17.160 --> 3:21:19.320 resource that's very valuable, and so they've been able to 3:21:19.440 --> 3:21:21.400 I mean just sort of annual profits. I know New 3:21:21.440 --> 3:21:24.119 Mexico makes a lot of money um off of their 3:21:24.240 --> 3:21:26.200 state trust and so you might have certain states that 3:21:26.280 --> 3:21:29.640 squander right UM, and that's not the right way to 3:21:29.680 --> 3:21:31.440 go about it, where the money is not going to 3:21:31.800 --> 3:21:34.199 the institution. But then you have the other side where 3:21:34.640 --> 3:21:38.600 they're so focused on the business that um that they're 3:21:38.640 --> 3:21:41.520 not thinking about the resource or the public in other ways. 3:21:42.240 --> 3:21:45.400 So to what degree are people aware as in is 3:21:45.440 --> 3:21:51.039 it like common knowledge that there are landlocked public lands 3:21:51.160 --> 3:21:55.000 all around us in the American West? I found um 3:21:55.320 --> 3:21:57.200 like last year, when we're trying to verify some of 3:21:57.240 --> 3:22:00.280 the larger federal parcels, it was most useful to talk 3:22:00.360 --> 3:22:03.160 to like a game warden in the area because they 3:22:03.240 --> 3:22:07.840 knew exactly where they're busting people for being on inaccessible land. 3:22:08.280 --> 3:22:10.080 And so I feel like a lot of this knowledge 3:22:10.160 --> 3:22:11.840 is at the local level, and that's a lot of 3:22:11.920 --> 3:22:15.039 what this project is is trying to compile it all 3:22:15.600 --> 3:22:18.600 to actually wrap your head around the issue. Have you 3:22:18.680 --> 3:22:21.440 have you have you thought about taking the analysis and 3:22:21.520 --> 3:22:24.680 then looking at the pieces of land that are sort 3:22:24.720 --> 3:22:28.040 of I don't want I'll use the word offending, though 3:22:28.040 --> 3:22:30.160 I shouldn't, that's not the right word. Like where you 3:22:30.200 --> 3:22:32.120 look at these like big chunks land people can't get to, 3:22:33.080 --> 3:22:34.959 and then you look at the easiest way to solve 3:22:35.080 --> 3:22:39.480 that puzzle, and then you look into what is going 3:22:39.680 --> 3:22:42.560 on with that chunk of land? Does that chunk of 3:22:42.640 --> 3:22:46.720 land for sale with the person wish to sell it? Uh? 3:22:47.040 --> 3:22:50.160 Like what is the status of that thing? That's generally 3:22:50.600 --> 3:22:53.560 what land trusts do, where you have groups like the 3:22:53.680 --> 3:22:57.240 Rocky Mountainknock Foundation where they've got folks actually out there 3:22:57.320 --> 3:23:01.000 drinking coffee with landowners and talking about how to transfer 3:23:01.560 --> 3:23:03.640 or sell a piece of land to open it up, 3:23:03.760 --> 3:23:06.360 you know, for the public. And so there's actually groups 3:23:06.400 --> 3:23:08.760 out there, a lot of them that that is their 3:23:08.840 --> 3:23:12.320 purpose is to work cooperative landowners identify these opportunities, but 3:23:12.400 --> 3:23:16.680 they don't have always the best information about um where 3:23:16.720 --> 3:23:18.920 those inaccessible lands are. And that's really where this project 3:23:19.000 --> 3:23:21.080 comes in. It's always actually does two things that helps 3:23:21.240 --> 3:23:24.959 inform um where those inaccessible lands are. To help people 3:23:25.040 --> 3:23:26.800 sort of be like, hey, there's an opportunity here and 3:23:26.840 --> 3:23:28.760 then you start then and then those folks can look 3:23:28.840 --> 3:23:32.040 at around that landlocked parcel where there might be you know, 3:23:32.200 --> 3:23:34.280 five different private holdings and a couple of them are 3:23:34.320 --> 3:23:36.440 close to a road, and they can be like, you know, 3:23:36.879 --> 3:23:38.840 is build a good you know what's that person like? 3:23:39.120 --> 3:23:41.840 They you know, pretty public friendly and public access friendly 3:23:41.920 --> 3:23:43.960 and and sort of have a conversation and sometimes it 3:23:44.040 --> 3:23:46.240 takes you know, several years to sort of work something 3:23:46.320 --> 3:23:49.760 out with a landowner. But also, um the other side 3:23:49.800 --> 3:23:53.680 of this is state policies and and federal policies and 3:23:53.720 --> 3:23:56.039 actually having programs in place that help provide the money. 3:23:56.800 --> 3:23:58.600 And you know, at the federal level, they've got like 3:23:58.680 --> 3:24:02.120 the land and water conservation and in three of that 3:24:02.520 --> 3:24:06.480 fund is dedicated for access. Between fifteen and million dollars 3:24:06.480 --> 3:24:10.600 a year must be used for access. UM. You know, 3:24:10.600 --> 3:24:13.080 at the state level, they can actually use state side 3:24:13.120 --> 3:24:18.840 FUNDINGWCF dollars must go UM too. States and they have 3:24:18.920 --> 3:24:21.680 the ability if they wanted to to use UM some 3:24:21.760 --> 3:24:23.920 of those dollars for access, but they may not realize that, 3:24:24.200 --> 3:24:28.000 and this report helps them see that. Also, UM there's 3:24:28.000 --> 3:24:31.400 certain states that just really recreations isn't a thing for them, 3:24:31.720 --> 3:24:34.320 well UM, and they're not thinking about it. And so 3:24:34.520 --> 3:24:36.840 that's we're hopeful that this information will also be used 3:24:36.879 --> 3:24:39.600 that way where UM people be like, hey, look at 3:24:39.640 --> 3:24:41.640 what Montana is doing or New Mexico they've got this 3:24:41.879 --> 3:24:44.920 this new council where they've actually pulled together this group 3:24:44.959 --> 3:24:47.160 and they're trying to figure out like how to open 3:24:47.280 --> 3:24:49.040 some of these lands up and also what are some 3:24:49.120 --> 3:24:50.840 of the restrictions on these state lands that maybe we 3:24:50.879 --> 3:24:53.680 could change a little bit um to make it more 3:24:53.720 --> 3:24:58.080 sort of recreation friendly and uh. And so maybe we 3:24:58.200 --> 3:25:00.480 can help bring attention to that through the this work. 3:25:00.560 --> 3:25:03.600 And so states like Wyoming, who has a lot of 3:25:03.680 --> 3:25:05.920 landlocked lands, might be like, hey, you know, what we 3:25:06.000 --> 3:25:09.360 could create an access program that will help create easements 3:25:09.400 --> 3:25:11.440 to these state parcels. And you know what, it's not 3:25:11.520 --> 3:25:13.879 only going to increase recreation to these lands, but it's 3:25:13.879 --> 3:25:15.560 also gonna make it easier for us to manage them 3:25:15.959 --> 3:25:18.280 to generate revenue for a beneficiary because we'll have access 3:25:18.320 --> 3:25:20.720 for these other reasons too. So, now that the report 3:25:20.920 --> 3:25:25.720 is out, what's next We're gonna be looking at nationwide. 3:25:25.840 --> 3:25:28.800 We'd love to, like I said, our main goal would 3:25:28.800 --> 3:25:32.040 be to get to this landlocked data set that's nationwide. 3:25:32.160 --> 3:25:35.920 Keep working with local land Trust BLM, everybody to make 3:25:35.959 --> 3:25:38.160 sure we have a solid data set that has all 3:25:38.160 --> 3:25:40.840 those easements in there and we know for sure, yes 3:25:40.920 --> 3:25:43.920 this one's accessible, this one isn't. We'd love to get 3:25:43.920 --> 3:25:45.959 to that point in because there's there are some real 3:25:46.080 --> 3:25:51.200 contested easements out there. Those are prescriptive easeman steve, which 3:25:51.240 --> 3:25:54.360 are different than recorded easeman so and that's a state 3:25:54.480 --> 3:25:57.680 law issue. But if they're and so it's different from state. 3:25:57.760 --> 3:26:00.520 But you think it like the crazy amount. I mean, 3:26:00.560 --> 3:26:02.760 you just hear various ones like well, I mean I've 3:26:02.800 --> 3:26:05.279 heard of some down in Colorado to like tested easement. 3:26:05.520 --> 3:26:08.119 So if there's the tested rule. I shouldn't say easments 3:26:08.720 --> 3:26:12.840 contested access points, roads and things that were historically regarded 3:26:12.879 --> 3:26:14.840 as a county road. But someone wants to argue that 3:26:14.879 --> 3:26:17.520 they're not, in fact the county road, that's right. But 3:26:17.640 --> 3:26:19.960 with the easements, if it's written in paper that there's 3:26:19.959 --> 3:26:22.640 an eazement there, it's not contested. But there's some places, 3:26:22.840 --> 3:26:26.840 because of continuous use um that you can get a 3:26:26.879 --> 3:26:29.200 prescriptive easement by going in front of a judge. It's 3:26:29.240 --> 3:26:31.240 a very contentious way to go about it, and it 3:26:31.320 --> 3:26:33.920 doesn't make a lot of friends, um, but there are 3:26:33.959 --> 3:26:35.800 places where that's happening, and that's why we want to 3:26:35.800 --> 3:26:37.720 get in front of that and try and get cooperative 3:26:37.800 --> 3:26:41.760 work done that brings landowners and hunters and anglers and 3:26:41.800 --> 3:26:43.800 other folks together to actually open lands up in a 3:26:43.840 --> 3:26:46.120 way that works to everybody. And that's the preferred the 3:26:46.200 --> 3:26:48.600 way to go about this. Okay, guys, you heard all that. 3:26:49.320 --> 3:26:52.080 If you care about getting state public lands that we 3:26:52.280 --> 3:26:56.800 all own opened up for us, there is definitely something 3:26:56.959 --> 3:27:01.880 we as American citizens can do right now. You can 3:27:01.920 --> 3:27:05.200 go send a message to your lawmakers. There's a website 3:27:05.240 --> 3:27:07.760 that t RCP has helped facilitate that for you. Now, 3:27:07.840 --> 3:27:10.680 you can just go to ww dot TRCP dot org 3:27:10.800 --> 3:27:12.800 and scrounge all around and find it. Or you can 3:27:12.840 --> 3:27:16.280 go to this not entirely handy website address which I'm 3:27:16.280 --> 3:27:20.000 gonna lay out for you. Www dot t r CP 3:27:20.800 --> 3:27:29.280 dot org slash unlocking, dash public dash lands. That's right 3:27:29.360 --> 3:27:34.560 as and gentlemen, trcp dot org slash unlocking, and you 3:27:34.600 --> 3:27:38.400 do a little dash mark public, another little dash mark lands. 3:27:38.480 --> 3:27:40.680 The hell of the website. Scroll down to where it 3:27:40.760 --> 3:27:44.760 says the key to unlocking public lands. Read all about 3:27:44.840 --> 3:27:47.560 the Land and Water Conservation Fund, which is a fund 3:27:47.640 --> 3:27:51.720 that helps unlock inaccessible lands, and send your message to 3:27:51.800 --> 3:27:57.400 your elected official right there. L w CF money is 3:27:57.560 --> 3:28:01.960 there to help on facilitating access to our public land. 3:28:02.120 --> 3:28:06.000 Make your voice heard, take action and help unlock public 3:28:06.120 --> 3:28:08.480 lands for us all. Thank you,