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Speaker 1: What's hurting my ears my new Zoom. This meeting is

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Speaker 1: being recorded. Boys. I'm Robert Evans, host behind the Bastards.

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Speaker 1: And if you are a user of Zoom, which hopefully

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Speaker 1: less people are, because the world is in some well

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Speaker 1: parts of the world are slightly better than they were

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Speaker 1: a couple of months ago. I don't know. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how to phrase this adequately. Um, but fucking Zoom

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Speaker 1: just put in a new change where this horrible woman

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Speaker 1: tells you that you're being recorded in a voice that

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Speaker 1: makes me want to either die or do violence. UM.

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Speaker 1: And I don't like it. I don't prefer it. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then the next thing she says is she's like

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Speaker 1: blue lives matter, and then she definitely talking about white

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Speaker 1: farmers in South Africa, And yeah, it gets like really weird,

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Speaker 1: how blonde people are going extinct. It's it's bizarre. I

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Speaker 1: don't understand why Zoom put all that in. She asked

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Speaker 1: me if I knew how to spell eugenics the last

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Speaker 1: it seems out of place. Yeah, she actually poses the

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Speaker 1: old s s racial heritage questions to make sure that

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Speaker 1: you're legally allowed to be in a relationship with your

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Speaker 1: significant other. Um. That's zoom that's the zoom Lady, actual Nazi,

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Speaker 1: the zoom Lady, the urban legend of this, the biggest

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Speaker 1: Karen of them all. We have to see Sophia, We

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Speaker 1: have we have you. This is a podcast about bad people,

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Speaker 1: the worst in all of history. Uh. And we have

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Speaker 1: an especially dark episode today. Today we're gonna be talking

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Speaker 1: about one of the darkest chapters in Irish history. Now,

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Speaker 1: if you know anything about the Irish you know that

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Speaker 1: that's saying thing when you're like, this is one of

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Speaker 1: the worst things that ever happened in Ireland. Like you're already,

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Speaker 1: you're already, you're getting You're on the top of a mountain,

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Speaker 1: and maybe there's like two or three other mountains. There's

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Speaker 1: like there's a indigenous American history, there's like Ukrainian history,

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Speaker 1: you know, one or two other mountains that you can

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Speaker 1: see peaks above you when you're on top of the

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Speaker 1: Irish history mountain. Um, so this is gonna be a

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Speaker 1: bad one today, gonna be a real bad one today.

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Speaker 1: Um And I know that since I am here it

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Speaker 1: is there's gonna be piles and yeah, siles of and

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Speaker 1: piles of babies who are diseased. Yeah, that is my

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Speaker 1: calling card. The working title for this episode is how

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Speaker 1: the Catholic Church killed all of Ireland's babies. Um, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're we're, we're, We're gonna fucking zoom in on that,

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Speaker 1: and obviously, as that probably keeps you in on the

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Speaker 1: villain of today's episode is primarily the Catholic Church. Um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's how the Catholic Church we got a deal with

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Speaker 1: all these fucking kids. I am starting to think I'm

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Speaker 1: misunderstanding who we're cheering for in this pos This is

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Speaker 1: a very pro killing babies podcast. This is Behind the

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Speaker 1: Baby Killers, a podcast that celebrates reducing the surplus population.

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Speaker 1: Look as I signed to get drunk at two in

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Speaker 1: the afternoon, that's the behind the bastards here. Yeah, Sophie

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Speaker 1: is getting drunk and I'm yelling about are there no workhouses?

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Speaker 1: Are there no prisons? I'm Benezer Scrooge. That's the long

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Speaker 1: frame of the show. Are you married to the zoom lady?

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Speaker 1: I am, I am. You're very happy. We're having our

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Speaker 1: wedding at a plantation. Several plantations were plantation hopping for

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Speaker 1: the wedding. May I ask the color of the skin

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Speaker 1: of the people that will be attending your wedding. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean servers are attending, right, Yeah, that's what I meant,

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Speaker 1: attend to your white guests. Yeah, Sophia, what do you

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Speaker 1: what do you? What do you? What do you? What

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Speaker 1: do you know about Ireland? Well, um, I do consider

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Speaker 1: them a sister country to my Eastern your because we

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Speaker 1: do worship the potato as well worship and you also

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Speaker 1: worship hardcore drinking, So hardcore drinking, and they very close

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Speaker 1: to my heart. Ireland, and in both Ukraine and Ireland,

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Speaker 1: the hardcore drinking is driven in part by the fact

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Speaker 1: that you are the two most colonized countries within Europe.

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Speaker 1: Both both Ukraine and Ireland were victims of colonization. Look,

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Speaker 1: oppression will drive you to drink, It absolutely does. And

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Speaker 1: there's some you know, we had everything exploding in Gaza,

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Speaker 1: in in in in Palestine recently, and some reminders that,

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Speaker 1: like the Irish, are some of the most within sort

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Speaker 1: of the Western world, probably the most consistent allies of

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Speaker 1: the Palestinian cause, as they were consistent allies as a

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Speaker 1: nation of the you know, indigenous American cause. Um, because

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Speaker 1: they've you know, they've been through some of the same

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Speaker 1: ship and a story that's dropping that's just dropped this

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Speaker 1: week is about the residential schools in Canada, which we covered.

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Speaker 1: One of them was found to have a mass grave

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Speaker 1: with two hundred and fifteen children in it. And we're

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Speaker 1: talking about a very similar story today, but it's of

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Speaker 1: course within the context of Ireland. Um. Now, before we

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Speaker 1: get into what exactly happened that led to the mass graves,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about today mass baby graves. Good times. Um,

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Speaker 1: we have to talk about about roughly thirteen hundred years

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Speaker 1: of Irish history, um, which we're gonna do in like

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Speaker 1: a page, which is I think responsible and good. Um.

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Speaker 1: So so strap in here's here's th hundred years of Ireland. So.

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Speaker 1: Ireland's history of foreign domination started around the seven hundreds,

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Speaker 1: when Scandinavian vikings started to raid monastery and towns for

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Speaker 1: precious gold. Over the next two hundred years, they settled

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Speaker 1: in several cities, including Dublin, and dominated the island until

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Speaker 1: ten fourteen, when an Irish king named Brian Buru beat

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Speaker 1: a Viking army in battle. Now, this only brought the

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Speaker 1: Irish about a century of independence, because in eleven sixties,

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Speaker 1: six war between two Irish kings ended when the defeated

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Speaker 1: king invited the Normans to invade. The Normans who had

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Speaker 1: took it, taken over what is today like England. This

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Speaker 1: Irish king who loses a war invites them to invade

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Speaker 1: Ireland in eleven sixty nine, and his plan is like,

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Speaker 1: this is gonna lead to me being in charge. Of

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Speaker 1: course it doesn't. It backfires and the Norman's takeover Ireland,

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Speaker 1: and this begins seven hundred years of direct domination, uh

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Speaker 1: of Ireland. Yeah, just a bunch of It's just Norm McDonald,

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Speaker 1: thousands of Norm McDonald's with axes, just taking Ireland, of course.

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Speaker 1: And I think Norm McDonald is probably Irish or Scottish,

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Speaker 1: I don't know whatever. Fuck him, he's an assholes what

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Speaker 1: he is. There's the mascot of Beverly Hills High School,

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Speaker 1: That's what That's what I was picturing, which is also right,

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Speaker 1: which is very colonizer as ship. Yeah, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what the origin is, but I'm assuming it's not great.

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Speaker 1: It's not great. Um. Now, over the following centuries there

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Speaker 1: were a bunch of different like subsequent English invasions of Ireland,

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Speaker 1: and people will quibble that, like, oh, I shouldn't call

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Speaker 1: them whatever. It's people who live in where the English.

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Speaker 1: Fuck it, they're the English. I don't care. In even

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Speaker 1: seventy one, King Henry the Second land of a huge

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Speaker 1: army at Waterford to funk up some of his own

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Speaker 1: nobles who had taken over chunks of Ireland. And we're

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Speaker 1: getting too rich oppressing oppressing the Irish without him, so

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Speaker 1: like other English people are oppressing the Irish, and the

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Speaker 1: King is like, but I'm not getting enough money from

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Speaker 1: sucking up the Irish, so he and never want to

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Speaker 1: be left out on other people. Know why why would

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Speaker 1: you look like that? You're just leaving money and blodies

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Speaker 1: on the table. I found out Sophie was oppressing you

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Speaker 1: without me. You know, you you you, I know that's why.

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Speaker 1: That's why you both have access to the to the

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Speaker 1: online trigger for the shot caller that I wear constantly

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Speaker 1: in order to stop me from doing bad things. Um,

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Speaker 1: that's only partly a joke, because Twitter is kind of

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Speaker 1: a shot caller now in the fifteen thirties, King Henry

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Speaker 1: the Eighth, you know this guy? Have you heard of

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Speaker 1: this guy? Hey? Hey, Mark Marin boys, who are your guy? So?

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Speaker 1: King Henry the eighth real piece of ship. He's the

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Speaker 1: guy who invented the Church of England and like made

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Speaker 1: his country leave the Catholic Church because he wanted to

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Speaker 1: funck more ladies. But that meant divorcing and marrying more ladies.

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Speaker 1: It was a whole thing. There's a song about it,

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Speaker 1: um anyway. Uh, well, it's not about that, but it

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Speaker 1: has the named Henry the Eighth. Anyway, it's very funny.

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Speaker 1: So he decides the Church England is going to be

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Speaker 1: a thing now because I want to be able to

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Speaker 1: get divorced and marry new women. The Irish were committed Catholics, um,

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Speaker 1: and some of their commitment to Catholicism came from the

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Speaker 1: fact that the English, who they hated, were like, we're

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Speaker 1: not Catholics anymore. This led to a series of what

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Speaker 1: you might call um race kerfuffles with the English that

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Speaker 1: ended with the Irish population population devastated and the mass

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Speaker 1: confiscation of Irish land by English colonists. Um. Now in

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Speaker 1: the sixteenth century, the Spanish. Near the end of the

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Speaker 1: sixteenth century, the Spanish briefly show up to help the

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Speaker 1: Irish rebel against their masters, but that ended disastrously. This

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Speaker 1: happens a couple of times in history. The Spanish and

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Speaker 1: the Germans on a number of occasions try to help

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Speaker 1: the Irish for their own purposes, and it never really

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Speaker 1: works out for the Irish. Um. In sixteen forty nine,

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Speaker 1: noted piece of ship Oliver Cromwell invaded Ireland yet again

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Speaker 1: to destroy Catholic Irish power. By sixteen fifty two, he

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Speaker 1: held most of the country and he launched a vicious

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Speaker 1: counterinsurgency to wipe out the remaining guerilla resistance to his reign.

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Speaker 1: Cromwell's campaign in Ireland was absolutely an act of genocide.

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Speaker 1: He may have wiped out fully fifty percent of the

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Speaker 1: population um, which is again the Holocaust and Europe kills

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Speaker 1: about fifty percent of the Jewish population. That's a pretty

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Speaker 1: pretty pretty genocidey genocide, right, Like when we talk about

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Speaker 1: the Irish is genocide victims, we're not we're not exaggerating here, um.

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Speaker 1: And around fifty thousand Irish laborers were also deported as

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Speaker 1: indentured laborers to the Caribbean, which was a step up

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Speaker 1: from slavery, but not as not a giant step. It's bad, um.

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Speaker 1: So we could do a whole podcast on the Mountains

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Speaker 1: of Ship the Irish have had to endure over the

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Speaker 1: last three quarters of millennia um. In particular, probably the

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Speaker 1: best known chapter in the ship history was the Irish

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Speaker 1: Potato Famine, or the Great Hunger. This kicked off in

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Speaker 1: ety five when a fungus killed half the year's potato crop,

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Speaker 1: and then three quarters of the crop over the next

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Speaker 1: seven years. Because the Irish were a colony of England,

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Speaker 1: the whole population were tenant farmers. All power on the

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Speaker 1: island came from English landowners. Catholics were prohibited from owning

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Speaker 1: or leasing land, voting or holding elected office until eighteen

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Speaker 1: twenty nine, so this is an apartheid state as well.

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Speaker 1: So by the time the famine started, the island's politics

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Speaker 1: were still dominated by absentee British Church of England landlords.

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Speaker 1: Tenant farmers owed food as rent to their landlords, and

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Speaker 1: potatoes were supposed to help them subsist, but when the

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Speaker 1: crops started failing, they didn't have enough food to pay

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Speaker 1: their debts to their landlords, who again didn't live in

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Speaker 1: Ireland generally, and to also eat. Roughly one million Irish

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Speaker 1: people starved to death during the famine. Another million were

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Speaker 1: forced to flee their homeland, often leaving for the United States.

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Speaker 1: This was out of a population of a little over

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Speaker 1: eight millions, so between death so they lose half their

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Speaker 1: population the six hundreds of their Cromwell and then in

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Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds um a quarter of the population either

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Speaker 1: is killed or forced out of the country by famine. UM.

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Speaker 1: Pretty rough millennia for the Irish all things told. So

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Speaker 1: given all this, it's not hard to understand why the

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Speaker 1: Irish wanted independence from Great Britain. In nineteen sixteen, with

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Speaker 1: World War One and media rez a group of Irish

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Speaker 1: revolutionaries tried to overthrow their colonial oppressor. They succeeded in

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Speaker 1: taking over a chunk of Dublin and declaring an Irish

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Speaker 1: Republic for like a couple of days before the British

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Speaker 1: sailed in a battleship and pounded the city with naval

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Speaker 1: guns from the sea. As tragic as the Easter Rising was,

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Speaker 1: it played a key role in leading to the Treaty

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Speaker 1: Settlement in nineteen twenty one that brought the Irish some

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Speaker 1: manner of independence. Basically, it's carved into you got your

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Speaker 1: Northern Ireland, which is still a part of the UK,

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Speaker 1: but you've got your Republic of Ireland now, which is

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Speaker 1: you know, the capitals in Dublin, and it's like the

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Speaker 1: bulk of the island, which is not Again, still a

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Speaker 1: lot of people angry about the partitioning of Ireland, but

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Speaker 1: it's a better situation than had existed before. Um So

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Speaker 1: the modern Republic of Ireland comes about as a result

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Speaker 1: of this process, and in nineteen thirties seven, the Irish

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Speaker 1: government drafts a constitution. Now, if you've been paying attention

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Speaker 1: through this very reef overview of Irish history, you'll note

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Speaker 1: that the Catholic Church pretty important to the Irish who

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Speaker 1: want independence, right, kind of a big, big deal for them,

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Speaker 1: and for most of the his the history of like

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Speaker 1: the Irish independence movement, the Catholic Church has been kind

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Speaker 1: of a countercultural and liberatory force. Being Catholic was a

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Speaker 1: symbol of resistance to the Crown. Now in nineteen you know,

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Speaker 1: thirty seven, when they're making this new constitution, the Republic

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Speaker 1: of Ireland is completely fucking broke. They've got no goddamn

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Speaker 1: money because the English had spent seven hundred years or

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Speaker 1: so robbing them blind, uh, and they especially did not

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Speaker 1: have money for social services. What they had was the

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Speaker 1: goodwill of the Catholic Church, who they wrote into their

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Speaker 1: first Constitution as the primary provider of social services, particularly

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Speaker 1: education for children. Now, that constitution did note that the

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Speaker 1: rights of children were quote inalienable and imprescribable. But the

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Speaker 1: rights of children were also subsumed within the rights of

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Speaker 1: the family, which is not necessarily the best thing because

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Speaker 1: it means kids don't have independent rights on their own.

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Speaker 1: That's generally how this was was translated. So I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: quote from a write up in the Child Abuse Review

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Speaker 1: by Claire mcluon Richards quote it. It being the Catholic

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Speaker 1: Church's major role in the education of children was accepted,

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Speaker 1: and the acknowledgement of the good works of the religious

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Speaker 1: orders in the care of the sick, poor and needy

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Speaker 1: was considered to be of benefit to wider Catholic society,

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Speaker 1: which was the dominant sector of the population. The opportunity

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Speaker 1: to formalize and secure the power of the Catholic Church

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Speaker 1: over its people without the impediment of British rule was critical.

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Speaker 1: The Church is the true religion of the people, would

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Speaker 1: exercise its authority and status and negotiations in agreements with

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Speaker 1: the state. Um the expectations of the state were to quote,

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Speaker 1: safeguard and uphold religious interests. It is bound to extend

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Speaker 1: protection and all reasonable assistance to the Catholic Church in

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Speaker 1: the exercise of her own proper functions. So you see

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Speaker 1: the budding issue here, right, Ireland is finally a free state.

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Speaker 1: Uh And since Catholic Catholicism has been punished for so long,

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Speaker 1: it was seen as inextricable from Irishness, which leads to

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Speaker 1: the enshrining and law of the Catholic Church dominance in

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Speaker 1: social services, particularly childcare. It was believed that Ireland, as

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Speaker 1: an independent nation, should be a holy and pure state,

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Speaker 1: and part of ensuring that purity was punishing people who

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Speaker 1: violated Catholic morality. You see, we're gonna have a problem here.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what you mean, because I feel like

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Speaker 1: deciding who's moral or not it's always great. It's always great.

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Speaker 1: I really think it ever leads to any problem. Absolutely

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Speaker 1: think I have the right to decide whether you're moral

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Speaker 1: or not. I I agree, and I think even better

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Speaker 1: than you, Sophia is a completely unaccountable group of old

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Speaker 1: Richmond who never fuck. That's who I want deciding how

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Speaker 1: how we get to live our lives is a bunch

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Speaker 1: of weirdos in Italy who don't fuck. But that's also

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Speaker 1: essentially uh, you know, our government to you, don't they fuck?

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Speaker 1: Look at Matt Gates, it's not consensual. Well well, I

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Speaker 1: guess you know. You know that that image Macro of

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Speaker 1: the two hands clasping in the middle, it's like Matt

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Speaker 1: dates the Catholic Church fucking children right in the middle.

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Speaker 1: Look at Mac's yeah, and I think there's I'm not enough.

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Speaker 1: I'm an expert. I'm not an expert at all in

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Speaker 1: Irish history. I wonder how much of kind of the

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Speaker 1: Catholic Church's dominance after has to do with the fact

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Speaker 1: that so a lot of these Irish revolutionaries in nineteen sixteen,

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Speaker 1: these guys are socialists, these guys are anti colonial, their

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Speaker 1: left wing, they have a their idea for how the

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Speaker 1: government should be as kind of a radical and socialist

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Speaker 1: one for the time they'll get massacred by the British um.

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Speaker 1: I wonder how much that had to do with kind

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Speaker 1: of the fact that that, I mean, honestly just based

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Speaker 1: on sort of culturally where the Church was probably still

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Speaker 1: would have owned up dominant I don't know. Um, it's

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Speaker 1: it's probably something someone with more knowledge of the history

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Speaker 1: than I could could could weigh in on. The easter

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Speaker 1: Rye thing is an interesting bit of history. Those guys

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Speaker 1: were fucking rad for the most part. Um So anyway,

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Speaker 1: the Catholic Church gets the gig in the Constitution basically

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Speaker 1: of legislating morality, particularly when it involves children. Now, when

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Speaker 1: Ireland was founded, the age of criminal responsibility was seven

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Speaker 1: years old. So that's when you're capable of being so

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Speaker 1: you can get the chair. Well I don't. I don't

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Speaker 1: think they're doing the chair, but you can you can

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Speaker 1: go to prison. Yeah, you can go to prison for crimes.

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Speaker 1: And it's actually much worse than that, Sophia, much worse

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Speaker 1: than than a normal prison system. Well, we're about to detail.

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Speaker 1: I feel like the normal prison system is already inappropriate

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Speaker 1: for people, so for children, when I say this is

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Speaker 1: worse than our prison system in a lot of ways, um,

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Speaker 1: I mean it. Um, it's bad not not to minimize ours.

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Speaker 1: But so at the start of the Irish Republic, age

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Speaker 1: of criminal responsibility is seven. It eventually rose to twelve.

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Speaker 1: You want to guess what year they increased the age

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Speaker 1: of criminal responsibility to twelve. No two thousand six, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, which I think is also when Ireland legalized

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Speaker 1: the blow job. Like, I'm not joking about that. It

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Speaker 1: was illegal to give blow jobs in Ireland until more

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Speaker 1: recently than you'd expect. Hey, everybody, I actually got this wrong.

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Speaker 1: It was not two thousand six. It was ninete three

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Speaker 1: when Ireland made sodomy, which included like oral sex and

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Speaker 1: stuff that wasn't you know procreative heterosexual sex was made legal.

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Speaker 1: Uh so Ireland nineteen three, not two thousand six. Apologies

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Speaker 1: for slandering the Emerald Isle. So children convicted of crimes

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Speaker 1: in this period became the responsibility of the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 1: So the good thing is they're not putting them in

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Speaker 1: adult prisons. They're not trying them as adults. There if

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Speaker 1: you're a seven, an eight, or a nine or a

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Speaker 1: tin or whatever. If you're a child who commits a crime,

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Speaker 1: you're handed over to the Catholic Church in a lot

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Speaker 1: of cases. Judge how hot children are? Okay, Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so this is important for for the science now the

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Speaker 1: average No, I'm not that's not a joke. That's not

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Speaker 1: a choke lane. We should go down. We're in a

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Speaker 1: Matt Gates territory here. Um, we're into average Catholic priest territory. Here,

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Speaker 1: We're into Dennis Haster, longest serving Republican Speaker of the

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Speaker 1: House territory. Here, we're into probably Bill Clinton territory here. Um, anyway,

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Speaker 1: that's Keith. Yeah, we're definitely in Raneer reneeratory. Um. So

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Speaker 1: so despite all the like all the d Anglish anglicization

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Speaker 1: sentiment reformatory schools, you know, the anti British sentiment or

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Speaker 1: whatever anti English sentiment. I don't know, fuck it, Like

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Speaker 1: everybody keeps yelling at me about that. To hell with

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Speaker 1: all of them, I say, um, reformatory schools were still

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Speaker 1: based on a British model that had originally been established

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Speaker 1: to deal with all the thieving orphans and street urchins

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Speaker 1: that Charles Dickens novels harbor over. Um now back at

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Speaker 1: night again. If you consent children to prison, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're a healthy society that deserves to rule the entire world.

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Speaker 1: But if you have the laws on the books and

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Speaker 1: they're even just send them to prison. Send them to prison.

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Speaker 1: We'll send him to a reform school that is worse

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Speaker 1: than most prisons. Today, just send them to child prison,

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Speaker 1: all right, stop writing these novels about them, I mean

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Speaker 1: glorifying the orphans. Don't the orphans, Dickens, give them the chair. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: fucking noted leftist Charles you think should be fed? You cook?

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Speaker 1: Are you simping for kids? You fucking loser. So back

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Speaker 1: in nineteen o eight, when Perfidious Albion still ran things

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Speaker 1: in all of Ireland, the government had instituted a set

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Speaker 1: of laws designed to protect the well being of children.

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Speaker 1: Since this was at that moment the UK, protecting children

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Speaker 1: went meant incarcerating them if they were caught begging or homeless,

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Speaker 1: or if they were found to have been neglected skipping school,

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Speaker 1: or who had like stolen something as well. All of

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Speaker 1: these are all of these kids exactly. Well everyone's that's

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Speaker 1: that's the big Now that Biden's in charge, We're we're

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Speaker 1: just gonna criminalize being poor as hard as we can,

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Speaker 1: and people continue to go to brunch. It's gonna be great. Um.

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Speaker 1: So these kids, and this is back again we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: This is in the UK, this is in Ireland, this

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Speaker 1: is before independence. Kids are being sent to these these

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Speaker 1: English reformatory schools which are also called industrial schools um

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Speaker 1: now under the English government, under the Crown or whatever.

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Speaker 1: These schools are run independently. Most of them were religious

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Speaker 1: in nature, but they were monitored by the state. When

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Speaker 1: the UK left most of Ireland and the Republic took over,

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Speaker 1: these industrial schools were officially managed by the Department of

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Speaker 1: Local Government, and then by the Department of Justice and

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Speaker 1: then by the Department of Education, but the Church did

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Speaker 1: all of the actual work. Since the state was broke,

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Speaker 1: they were more than happy to let the church take

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Speaker 1: care of their social services. The church considered this a

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Speaker 1: worthwhile expense. Historian dicey okarrain, I'm so sorry. Gaelic is

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Speaker 1: a beautiful language. Irish is a beautiful language. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to butcher it every time I try to say one

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Speaker 1: of these names. It is BEAUTI yeah, it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: the it's gorgeous. I've spent a lot of Ireland's the

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Speaker 1: first place I ever trailed outside of the US. I've

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Speaker 1: been back seven or eight times. I love listening. I

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Speaker 1: take an Irish literature class in uh In College and

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Speaker 1: since then I've been like so in love and like

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Speaker 1: I said, a lot of the similarity of the depression,

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Speaker 1: the good writing, it's wonderful from Ireland. That's good. Um.

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Speaker 1: So this historian I've butchered explains quote that social service

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Speaker 1: provision is designed to propagate the Catholic faith. So that's

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Speaker 1: why the Catholic churches want to go out of pocket.

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Speaker 1: At least they're framing it as like, will pay since

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Speaker 1: the government's broke, will pay for your social services because

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Speaker 1: we see this as helping to expand the Catholic faith. Right,

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Speaker 1: that's why we're going to cover social services for the country. Um.

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Speaker 1: And while the wording of all these laws talked about

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Speaker 1: criminal children, it's worth noting that again most of them

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Speaker 1: had not committed anything we would recognize as a crime today.

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Speaker 1: In fact, the most common crime for which children were

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Speaker 1: put in these facilities was that they were born to

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Speaker 1: single mothers. Now no, me too. Yeah you're a crime

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Speaker 1: baby throwing you in baby prison. As one researcher wrote

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Speaker 1: in nine of the Church in Ireland, quote, the body

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Speaker 1: was seen as a major source of evil. This was

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Speaker 1: particularly true for women, whose proper role was to become

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Speaker 1: there's in a good Catholic family. Any alternatives to this

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Speaker 1: Catholic ideal were a threat to the status quo. As

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Speaker 1: a result, the Church and state worked together too heavily

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Speaker 1: police children born out of wedlock, unsupervised and unkimpt children,

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Speaker 1: poor children, and children in any other living situation that

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Speaker 1: didn't seem Catholic enough. So when I talk about criminal

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Speaker 1: behavior from children, this is what the Church considered criminal

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Speaker 1: being born to a single mother, having a d h D,

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Speaker 1: or something that made you misbehave in school, or coming

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Speaker 1: from a family without much money. Claire mcclun richards describes

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Speaker 1: this as pathologized Catholicism, basically religion that has turned any

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Speaker 1: behavior that dissents from the religious mainline into an illness

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Speaker 1: or a crime. When the British left the Church. When

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Speaker 1: the British left Ireland, Sorry, the Church saw that departure

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Speaker 1: of that state as a way to legislate Catholic ideas

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Speaker 1: about proper behavior. From a write up in the Child

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Speaker 1: Abuse Review quote, the children of poor or inadequate parenting

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Speaker 1: were deemed to be in moral danger as the abused

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Speaker 1: and neglected child was contaminated by adult knowledge. He argues

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Speaker 1: that children were responded to and treated by the Church

425
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: and state not in terms of what they were, but

426
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: what they were going to be. This may explain why

427
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 1: so many boys who had committed petty crime or who

428
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 1: were seeing at risk of committing crime, were placed in

429
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: reformatory schools, and why so many girls, although having committed

430
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: no crime, were placed in industrial schools because of the

431
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 1: perceived risk of their sexual immorality. The patholomy is criminal

432
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: a crime. It is that banksy drawing, but instead of

433
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 1: a dude, it's a girl in a dress. Instead of

434
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: throwing a malatov with like a flower in it, it's

435
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: a vulva, just tucking a volva? Is could is? Could

436
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: we just get like? So obviously we're making tiny handcuffs

437
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 1: for all the babies we're putting Oh no, no, no,

438
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: don't work. Are they also finding a tiny single handcuff

439
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 1: for the vulva for the services are throwing it over

440
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: the cervix? What are we doing? The good news they're not.

441
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: They're not handcuffing these kids. They're not putting them behind bars.

442
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: They're just putting them in what I might call a

443
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 1: rape factory. So that's good. Oh, they're not locking them up.

444
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: They're not locking them up though, you know, other than

445
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: they locked them inside the rape factory with the rapists anyway,

446
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: is like music factory. What what was that? Yeah, it's

447
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,679
Speaker 1: exactly That's actually what the C and C Music Factory

448
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 1: is based on, which is why they're banned in Ireland. Um, okay,

449
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 1: you know who is not banned in Ireland? I don't

450
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: think hopefully not maybe probably not the products and services

451
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:40,439
Speaker 1: and support this podcast services unless it's yeah, because the

452
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 1: EU has some laws and stuff, and I don't know,

453
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 1: we might get an advertisement from my favorite gun manufacturer,

454
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: sig Sour, in which case probably isn't legal in Ireland. Um,

455
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: dick pills might not be either, you know, they let

456
00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: us know. Yeah, here's ads did pills. All right, we're

457
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: back and we're thinking about the concept of dick pills

458
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: and the Irish who until fairly recently could not legally

459
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: perform or received blow jobs. Um. I'm going to continue

460
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: that quote from the Child Abuse Review, which is talking

461
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 1: about how children are being pathologized as a as a

462
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: thought that they might commit immoral, sexual or other type

463
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: of crimes. Quote. The pathologizing of these children may have

464
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: been may well have been because they were seen as

465
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: undesirable and uncomfortable, reminders of the lack of sexual control.

466
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: Or moral values of their parents, particularly their mothers, who

467
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: were deemed as sinful or unchaste. The rigors of discipline,

468
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,479
Speaker 1: enforcement and punishment under repressive practices driving Catholic doctrine at

469
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 1: that time may have granted an entitlement to cure the

470
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: social ills, problems, and products of sexual immorality as manifested

471
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: by the children in these institutions. This entitlement and authority,

472
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 1: which were endorsed by the silence and collusion of the

473
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: agents of the state, sealed the fate of thousands of children.

474
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: So that's so. Wait, it's kind of dope though that

475
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:14,400
Speaker 1: if you having sex with your Catholic wife, the children

476
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: that you have after somehow do not change the fact

477
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: that you're chased. But if you are not in a

478
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: Catholic marriage and you have a child, yeah, that is

479
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: evidence of you not being chased, even though any children

480
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: are evidence of you not being chased. Chased. Yeah, No,

481
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 1: if it's within a Catholic relationship, it's fine. If it's not,

482
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: the children are guilty and need to go to prison. Um.

483
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: So the question now becomes, as we've alluded to, what

484
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: were these schools like in practice? Well, if you know

485
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: anything about the Catholic church for the last I don't know,

486
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: two thousands of years. You've probably assumed that it involved

487
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: a lot of child molestation. So if you can we

488
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: get an air horn for child molestation. Yeah no, I

489
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: like that, like a solemn, mournful lairhorn. No no, no no,

490
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: you want like a sad tromboe and you want like more.

491
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: It actually seems more disrespectful to do the more more

492
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: more than Yeah, when we're talking about shout molestation, Um,

493
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 1: you are broken? Okay, Yeah, that's the theme of the show.

494
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: I think it should just be like one of those

495
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: like like crash sounds like you know what I mean?

496
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: What if we like sing a little? What if we're like,

497
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: let's talk about rape, baby, let's talk about the Catholic

498
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: Let's talk about rape. Let's talk about nuns and pretty rape,

499
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: Let's talk about rape. There we go. I think it works.

500
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: I think we got an I think we got an album.

501
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: I once again think I don't get paid enough. Wait,

502
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: how about this one. It's a cal flick summer. Don't

503
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: leave your kids with a priest. It's a kath kath

504
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: lick summer. I don't know how to continue it, but

505
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: you know, we've got we've got enough. This is the

506
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: start of the cruel Summer summer? Is that Jaylor Swift? No,

507
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: that's not Taylor. That's older than that. Okay, sorry, the

508
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: Cruel Summers? Are there a couple anyway? Let's talk about

509
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: one of the inmates in one of these industrial schools.

510
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 1: Des Murray, arrived at the Art and Industrial School in

511
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: Dublin when he was twelve and a half years old.

512
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: He'd been born in nineteen forty one, the son of

513
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: a Yeah, prime hard time, that's twel he's ready, a

514
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: twelve and a half year old man. Get him in here. Um.

515
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: He'd been born in nineteen forty one the son of

516
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: an unmarried mother and was almost immediately taken from her

517
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: and thrown into the system. We discussed in our Georgia

518
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: Tan episode how up until like the seventies in the US,

519
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: it was very common for single mothers to have their

520
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: children taken from them straight away without any kind of recourse.

521
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: That happened here to god knows how many women. And

522
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: then the Georgia Tan episodes, you were saying that they

523
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: were like a lot of fake signing the way like

524
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: you know, that's what you were signing, and that was

525
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: happening when like Carter was in office not that long ago.

526
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: Here in Ireland it was worse because not only were

527
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: children separated from their mothers, but both were put in

528
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: church run prisons. So here's Death's experience of this system

529
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: from a rite up in the Irish Examiner. Artaine was

530
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: a concentration camp. He says quietly. I was singled out

531
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: by two brothers to sadists. My biggest regret is that

532
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: I didn't kill those two bastards. One was particularly savage.

533
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 1: One fella I knew had a rheumatic heart, but brother

534
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: B used to make him fill a wheelbarrow with stones

535
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: and wheel it around the yard three or four times.

536
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: The Artan School was run by the Congregation of Christian Brothers,

537
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: a worldwide religious community founded in Waterford, Ireland in eighteen

538
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: o two. Their goal was to educate poor Catholic boys

539
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,719
Speaker 1: and ed you to expect. They have a long history

540
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: of allegations of sexual abuse, and a quote again from

541
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 1: the Irish Examine are here. Dez witnessed sexual abuse in Artaine,

542
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: but did not encounter it directly himself. I remember seeing

543
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: a brother on the landing and he was spotting the boys,

544
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: He says, they carefully chose their victims. You wouldn't see

545
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: the boys going into the brother's room, but sometimes you'd

546
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: see them running out screaming. They chose the vulnerable ones.

547
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: Valentine Walsh was not as fortunate, and he went to

548
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: St Joseph's Industrial School of Charlie, County Kerry. So while

549
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: des just witnessed sexual abuse, Valentine was sexually and physically

550
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: assaulted at St Joseph's from the ages of nine to thirteen. Valentine, Yeah,

551
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: and the article of Valentine shows a photograph of himself

552
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: as a little kid. He's seven, it's the day of

553
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: his first communion um. And yeah, he's a nice little

554
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: boy in a suit with his his hair and til

555
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: done up. But he's very much not smiling. From the article,

556
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: he doesn't ever remember a reason to smile. All Valentine

557
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: remembers is the terror, a locked door, a darkened room,

558
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: and three Christian brothers who sexually and physically abused him.

559
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: This is the world that lay in wait for the

560
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: little boy in the commune group of nineteen sixty and

561
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: Saint Joseph's Industrial School. The first memory I have of

562
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 1: being sexually abused by Brother D. Was when I was

563
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: nine or ten, says Valentine. He would take me into

564
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: his own classroom in the evening when it was empty,

565
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: he would lock the door behind me. He recalls how

566
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: it happened and how brother D prepared the room for

567
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: this hell. I remember the blackboard and the wind in

568
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: the classroom and used by Brother D to block off

569
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: the windows. Other clippings in newspaper were on the windows

570
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: and blocked off any site into the classroom. The clippings

571
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: in the blackboard prevented anyone from the outside looking in.

572
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: We were locked in and they were locked out. So

573
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: that's what happened to the boys in this was a

574
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: mix of physical abuse that kid recalls like a kid

575
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: with a bad heart being forced to wheelbarrow around rocks

576
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: just because one of the brothers of say this, and

577
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: like mass child rape. That's what happens to a lot

578
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: of the boys in these schools. Now, what happened to

579
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: Valentine and Deza's mothers. You know they're both taken from

580
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: their mothers, their single moms, at an early age. They

581
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 1: don't know, They have no idea where their mothers wound up.

582
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: Because the Catholic Church considered their mothers to be dangerous

583
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: criminal influences. There is a fairly decent chance, though, that

584
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: both mothers were sent to what we're called the Magdalene laundries,

585
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 1: now officially called them sisters. It's about to be. It's

586
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 1: about to be, and it's also about to involve the

587
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: game mouse trap oddly enough, so officially called yeah just

588
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: just just wait, Sophia. Oh, you're gonna have a good

589
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: time with this one. So officially called the Magdalene asylums.

590
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: These were essentially prisons for unwed mothers. They had their

591
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: roots in the mid seventeen hundreds in a campaign by

592
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: the church to put so called fallen women, who were

593
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 1: often sex workers to work. Um now, this was actually

594
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: a rare joint Catholic and Protestant Effrica. It's really quick though.

595
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: It's in the name sex workers. What do you mean

596
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 1: to put sex workers to work? Honest God fearing working? Yeah,

597
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: but not giving him another job. That's fucking rude. Yeah,

598
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: I mean this is a pretty rude religion. Um Now,

599
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: I should note that when the Magdalene asylums started, because

600
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 1: this kicks off in the seventeen hundreds, Ireland still under

601
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 1: the UK. This starts is actually a very rare joint

602
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 1: Protestant and Catholic effort, which tells you how much about

603
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: Irish society at all levels despised single mothers and English society.

604
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: The first of these institutions was actually run by the

605
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,280
Speaker 1: Protestant Church of Ireland, the Magdalene Asylum for Penitent Females

606
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,399
Speaker 1: in Dublin. Now, there was a worry on the time

607
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 1: that prostitution was on the rise. Wayward women who were

608
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: willing to have sex outside of marriage and get pregnant

609
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: outside of wedlock were thought to be in danger of

610
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: becoming sex workers. So when I say these fallen women

611
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: were sex workers, off and they were just women who

612
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: wanted to have sex with people they weren't married to,

613
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: that was the same thing at the time. Fearing this,

614
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: parents started sending their unwed daughters to the Magdalene asylums

615
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: because they were worried, like, your daughter looks at a boy,

616
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: you send her there, or your daughter gets pregnant, you

617
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,479
Speaker 1: send her there. Either way you're worried your daughter might fuck,

618
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,479
Speaker 1: you send her to the Magdalene Asylum. Now the goal

619
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: here was twofold. First, it was to hide the shameful

620
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 1: fact that a woman in the family had gotten pregnant

621
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: or had been having sex without a husband. And second,

622
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: it was hoped that time in the asylums would rehabilitate

623
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: sinful sex and baby havevers. Initially, inmates were only meant

624
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,919
Speaker 1: to be incarcerated for limited periods of time. They would

625
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,399
Speaker 1: be sentenced to several years, during which they would learn

626
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: a respectable profession so that when they left they'd be

627
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: able to avoid the horrific sin of having consensual sex

628
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,280
Speaker 1: for money. However, the work they did at the Magdalene

629
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: asylums made money for the church, and as decades and

630
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: eventually centuries passed, the Magdalene Asylums became institutions within the

631
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 1: Irish Catholic Church. From a write up and history dot

632
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: Com quote, the stints the prison sentences grew longer and

633
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: longer women were off sent there were often charged with

634
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 1: redeeming themselves through lace, making, needlework, or doing laundry. Though

635
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: most residents had not been convicted of any crime, conditions

636
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: inside were prison like. Redemption might sometimes involve a variety

637
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 1: of coercive measures, including shaven heads, institutional uniforms, bread and water, diets,

638
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 1: restricted visiting, supervised correspondence, solitary confinement, and even flogging writes

639
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: a story in Hell and j self. So that's good.

640
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: I love a casual flogging you didn't expect. Yeah yeah,

641
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: an adult tasks woman live in your life getting flogged

642
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: for not washing clothes fast enough because you winked at

643
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: a boy when you were fifteen. Yes, also like so

644
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: fucked up. You were just like maybe giving like blow

645
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 1: jobs and ship and now you have to learn how

646
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: to needle point. Yeah. Yeah, it's not great and I

647
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: don't want someone to force me to do that. Like,

648
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 1: those are really different skills. They are very different skills. Um,

649
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,959
Speaker 1: both can involve needles, but only if your partners into

650
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: sounding so initially honestly, I mean hand iye. A coordination

651
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 1: is important in both, it is, Yeah, but that's probably

652
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: where the similarity ends. They're like, they're both like basketball

653
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 1: in that both needle point and blow jobs a lot

654
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: of similarities to basketball, which is why NBA players give

655
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 1: such famously good blow jobs. Yeah, so that's why they

656
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 1: Paul Lebron King James King King James, because job, that's

657
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: what that documentary song My Milkshake brings all the Boys

658
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: to the Art was about Lebron James. I will not

659
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: be so good at blow jobs. And you know what else,

660
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,919
Speaker 1: that's the reason that you know he has a little

661
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 1: bit of a bald spot on the top of his head.

662
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: Job happen. Don't come for his hair line, I'm not.

663
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: But when he's blowing and he's on his knees, he's

664
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 1: so good. People literally rubbed the hair off his head. Yeah,

665
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: that's a compliment. That's yes, that's all I'm saying. That's

666
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: evidence of how skillful he will not. I will not

667
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: accept this slander of Lebron James. Famously, Jerry West hella jealous,

668
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 1: Hella jealous of lebron sucking skills. I just put it

669
00:38:55,200 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: out there, So, yeah, why I think you were just

670
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: talking about fun, consensual sex with an NBA slash blowjob star.

671
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: That's fine. Um, it's not children in prison, putting children

672
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: in their single mothers in prison slash rape factories. Now Sophia.

673
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: Initially most of the inmates at the Magdalene laundries. They

674
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: came to be known as that because doing laundry for

675
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: money was one of the most common things that they

676
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: would have these women do. Um, Initially, most of these

677
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: inmates went voluntarily and the focus was on rehabilitation, but

678
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: over time these grew into penal institutions. As this happened,

679
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: their scope change from providing rehabilitation to fallen women to

680
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: taking in women who had been admitted to psychiatric institutions,

681
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 1: women with special needs, victims of rape and assault, and

682
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: girls deemed too flirtatious or tempting to men. So if

683
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 1: you're a girl, who draw me out, my God exactly.

684
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 1: Pregnant teenagers continue to be sent to the laundries as well,

685
00:39:58,040 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: but by the early nineteen hundreds and that to come

686
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: of the Independent Republic of Ireland, things had reached a

687
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: point where large numbers of women were being incarcerated for

688
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 1: no clear reason at all. While the laundries were run

689
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 1: by various Catholic orders, they also received support from the

690
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: Irish government, who paid the Church for laundry fees. Since

691
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:18,280
Speaker 1: the Church didn't pay incarcerated women, this was basically free money.

692
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,919
Speaker 1: And what was it like to live in the Magdalene laundries, Well,

693
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 1: we don't have a whole lot in the way of

694
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: detailed testimony from the seventeen hundreds and eighteen hundreds but

695
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: we know a lot about how they were in the

696
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: middle of the twentieth century. I'm gonna quote again from

697
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: that rite up in history dot com. Nuns ruled the

698
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 1: laundries with impunity, sometimes beating inmates and enforcing strict rules

699
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: of silence. You didn't know when the next beating was

700
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:41,240
Speaker 1: going to come, said survivor Mary Smith in an oral history.

701
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,760
Speaker 1: Smith was incarcerated in the Sundays Well laundry and Cork

702
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: after being raped. Nuns told her it was in case

703
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 1: she got pregnant. Once there, she was forced to cut

704
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: her hair and take on a new name. She was

705
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 1: not allowed to talk and was assigned backbreaking work in

706
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: the laundry, where nuns regularly beat her for minor infractions

707
00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: and forced her to sleep in the cold. Due to

708
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: the rama she suffered, Smith doesn't remember exactly how long

709
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,359
Speaker 1: she spent in sundays Well. To me, it felt like

710
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 1: my lifetime, she said. Smith wasn't alone. Often women who

711
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: women's names were stripped from that. You survive rape and

712
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: then someone fucking puts you in prison for it, for life,

713
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: for life. Yeah, Smith wasn't alone. Often women's names were

714
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: stripped from them. They were referred to by numbers or

715
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 1: as child or penitent. Some inmates, often orphans, are victims

716
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,760
Speaker 1: of raper abuse, stayed there for a lifetime. Others escaped

717
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 1: and were brought back to the institutions. Another survivor, Marina Gambled,

718
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 1: was placed in a laundry by her local priest. She

719
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 1: recalls being forced to eat off the floor after breaking

720
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: a cup and getting locked outside in the cold for

721
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 1: a minor infraction. I was working in the laundry from

722
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 1: eight in the morning until about six in the evening,

723
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 1: she told the BBC in twos thirteen. I was starving

724
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 1: with the hunger. I was given bread and dripping for

725
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: my breakfast. So pretty bad ship. Yeah, pretty bad ship.

726
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,879
Speaker 1: Pretty not good ship. And the Magdalene laundries really came

727
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: into being their more into their modern form in the

728
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: nineteen twenties. This was the first decade of the Irish

729
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:09,879
Speaker 1: States existence, but it was also a time when rates

730
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: of illegitimate childbirths started to rise precipitously. This sparked panic

731
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 1: among moral ninnies like the Catholic clergy. Initially, they worried

732
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: that single mothers would become prostitutes somehow, locking these women

733
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 1: up hadn't stopped prostitution or unwed motherhood, so they decided

734
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 1: the solution to the very real struggles faced by poor

735
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: single mothers was to separate them from their children and

736
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 1: incarceerate them for life. Mother and child were kept together

737
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: until the moment it was possible to semi safely separate them.

738
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 1: Starting in the nineteen fifties, when adoption was legalized in Ireland,

739
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 1: that became the standard for newborn children who were in

740
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 1: reasonably good health. Historian diffy Or Karaine told the BBC

741
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 1: there was a viewpoint perhaps that by facilitating adoption or

742
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 1: putting them into an industrial school, that those children were

743
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: being given a chance at a better and more stable life. Uh,

744
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:05,879
Speaker 1: it's kind of um wild that these are named after

745
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: Mary Magdalene when the whole thing was told that Jesus

746
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 1: was like pretty good friends with her. Yeah, for sure,

747
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: wasn't punishing her for being a sex worker. That was

748
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 1: kind of the whole thing and pretty positive. The vibe

749
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: wasn't like fuck you. Mary Magdalene's absolutely part of these

750
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 1: places that were like fuck you women, and then they

751
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 1: named them after her, like the audacity. It's bizarre because like, yeah,

752
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: the whole if I am understanding that part of the Bible, right,

753
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 1: the whole thing is that like she was a quote

754
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: unquote fallen woman, but Jesus was like, I don't give

755
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 1: a funk. I'm Jesus. Like everybody's shit, I still love you.

756
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 1: Was his attitude, right, Yeah, I think his whole vibe

757
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: was like, I don't care. You're not any better than

758
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,720
Speaker 1: this woman just because she's a prostitute. You got shipped,

759
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: you're going on too. It's whatever, Like I'm Jesus, I

760
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: don't care, I think was his attitude. Um. But yeah,

761
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: they take this as like, let's make a prison for

762
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: women and their children. Um. And to be honest, the

763
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: fact that they were finally adopting these children in the

764
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 1: fifties is better than incarcerating them. But that said, as

765
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: we'll talk about, they were only adopting the marketable children.

766
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,839
Speaker 1: So a big part of this story is like kids

767
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 1: with physical disabilities, right, kids with mental disabilities, um, kids

768
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 1: who just aren't attractive as adoption candidates for whatever reason

769
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: by the standards of the time, those kids still stay

770
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 1: incarcerated because you can't you can't sell them, and it

771
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 1: is they're selling them. They're profiting off of the adoption

772
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 1: of these children. The Catholic Church is trafficking babies, is

773
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:43,399
Speaker 1: is what this turns into is a for profit baby

774
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 1: trafficking operation. Even when you're getting abused, do you have

775
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,959
Speaker 1: to be hot? So well? Yeah? I mean, like God,

776
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: can I just be ugly if you're gonna fucking like

777
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: steal my whole life? Anyway? Yep, it's good stuff. You

778
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: know what won't traffic chldren for profit? These goods down services.

779
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: That's the only promise we make about these goods and services.

780
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: They are not child traffickers as best as we know

781
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:26,839
Speaker 1: from googling them once. So far we're back, Oh yeah,

782
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 1: having a great time, just talking about cool and fun

783
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: things with my friends. So, from what I can tell,

784
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: some of the women incarcerated in the Magdalene asylums were

785
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: set free once their newborn child was taken from them,

786
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 1: And I don't have a clear rubric for when that

787
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: was done and when they were kept in It was

788
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 1: not that was not always what was done, it was

789
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 1: not even necessarily often what was done. A lot of

790
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 1: women were incarcerated for life, um and this seems to

791
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:54,479
Speaker 1: have been about money as much as it was about

792
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:57,359
Speaker 1: anything remember, the Irish state is too broke to fund

793
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,320
Speaker 1: any of their social services. If we can even like

794
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,439
Speaker 1: this is their calling this a social service. I would

795
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 1: argue kidnapping and trafficking children and their mothers is not

796
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 1: a service, But honest men can disagree. The Catholic Church um.

797
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 1: The way this was framed as like, we the church,

798
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: because we so love faithful Ireland and want to facilitate

799
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: the growth of our religion, will pay for the social

800
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 1: services you know ourselves. This is a service that will

801
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: provide to the state. The reality is that the Catholic

802
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 1: Church was rich as ship and could have provided excellent

803
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: social services to the entirety of the island of Ireland,

804
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 1: but instead made a profit um off of trafficking their bodies.

805
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: Um because they didn't get that rich by giving their

806
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,919
Speaker 1: money away to poor countries, I think is the gist

807
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: of the story. Estimates of the number of women who

808
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,359
Speaker 1: went through the Magdalene laundryes Ferry. Getting an accurate count

809
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: has been complicated by the fact that various the various

810
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: religious orders responsible for these particular crimes against humanity have

811
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: a vested interest in refusing to provide archival information to historians.

812
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: As best as anyone can guess, around three thousand men

813
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: were incarcerated in the laundries over a two hundred and

814
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 1: thirty one year period. At least ten thousand of those

815
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: inmates went through the system after nineteen The Magdalene laundries

816
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: operated without major criticism or controversy well into the nineteen nineties.

817
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 1: It is well worth asking why and how this was allowed.

818
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,320
Speaker 1: History dot Com rights to start with, Any talk of

819
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 1: hearts treatment at the Magdalene Laundries and Mother's homes tended

820
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: to be dismissed by the public, since the institutions were

821
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: run by religious orders. Survivors who told others what they

822
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,479
Speaker 1: had been through were often shamed or ignored. Other women

823
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 1: were too embarrassed to talk about their past and never

824
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 1: told anyone about their experiences. Details on both the inmates

825
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: and their lives are scant now. Healthcare was obviously not

826
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,359
Speaker 1: great in the laundries. The work was often unsanitary, as

827
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,760
Speaker 1: we've heard from some of the eyewitness accounts I read earlier.

828
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: Women were often starved and beaten. Some of them died

829
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: from illnesses or as a result of the physical abuse

830
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: they endured. We have no idea how many perished. But

831
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: we do know that in nineteen the Sisters of Our

832
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: Lady of Charity decided to sell some of their land.

833
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: Um Sisters of Lady of Charity sold their land anyway,

834
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 1: but also the whole name for a place that just

835
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 1: souses women. When the Sisters of Our Lady of Charity

836
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,280
Speaker 1: sold some of their land that they had operated laundries

837
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: on for profit, it was because they didn't need the

838
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: land anymore. The laundries were closing down at this point.

839
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 1: They weren't making money. Yeah, after we had beaten the

840
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 1: greatest number of women we could beat the vacation and

841
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: weren't allowed to beat anymore. We couldn't be more charity. Yeah.

842
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 1: And also like when you reach you know, iconic status,

843
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 1: it's like, maybe it's time to hang up the paddle,

844
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 1: you know, the Cat of nine Tales. Yeah, maybe you stop,

845
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,760
Speaker 1: you know, beating people for just a little bit to reset,

846
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 1: you know, find out who you really would rather be beating. Yeah. Yeah,

847
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: And the sisters they decided to do this. They decide

848
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 1: they got to clear out, you know, they sell this

849
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 1: land because they can't operate this laundry for profit anymore.

850
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 1: When they sell the property, they apply with the government

851
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: to have a hundred and thirty three bodies moved from

852
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 1: unmarked graves real sisters of our Lady of charity. Stuff

853
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 1: is unmarked Matt's graves. So thankfully this was the nineties,

854
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: and even though Ireland in the nineties little bit of

855
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 1: a ship show, still the government was like, wait a minute,

856
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:21,839
Speaker 1: how many bodies in a must grave are we talking

857
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: about here, and so that they were like, wait a minute,

858
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,879
Speaker 1: it's a lot of infants in an adult size grave.

859
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 1: You're not nearly enough babies in these graves. So the

860
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 1: government quickly realizes that actually there were much more people

861
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: in the unmarked grave than the sisters of our Lady

862
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 1: of Charity. It admitted. They find the remains of at

863
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: least a hundred and fifty five people there, and bonus

864
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: dead babies and hair that was an appropriate accent. Journalists

865
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 1: dig into the matter and find only seventy five death

866
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 1: certificates that can be traced to this grave with a

867
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,320
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty five dead people, which means the sisters

868
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: of our Lady of Charity, we're covering up an awful

869
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,400
Speaker 1: lot of dead people. That's a lot of dead people.

870
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,240
Speaker 1: It was a bogo sales. Yeah, it was a bogo

871
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 1: on corpses report one for the deaths of two yeah. Um.

872
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 1: Now the nuns claimed this was all just the result

873
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 1: of an administrative error. Then they burned the corpses and

874
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: reburied the ashes in a mass grave somewhere else. That's

875
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 1: a go administrative error, classic nuns. You know what they

876
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 1: always say, babies don't stay buried unless you do it twice.

877
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,280
Speaker 1: It's not nice. It's one of those things you talk about,

878
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: let's say the Spanish Civil War and the anarchists who

879
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 1: murdered a lot of priests and nuns in that war,

880
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 1: and who also would dig up graves of priests and

881
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 1: nuns and incinerate the corpses, and you're like, what a

882
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 1: horrible crime, And then you realize this ship was definitely

883
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 1: happening in Spain too, and maybe people just had the

884
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 1: church's fucking number, because most nuns and most priests in

885
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church have been fucking monsters. It's the SS

886
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,919
Speaker 1: with better branding is the fucking Catholic Church in most

887
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 1: of its history, in most of the places where it's operated. Um.

888
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,759
Speaker 1: With a notable exception of liberation theology, Catholicism in Latin

889
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,919
Speaker 1: America during this most recent century, which did some red ship.

890
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 1: It's a big church, right, but like this fucking ship

891
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 1: happened all over the place. It's not just Ireland. Ireland's

892
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 1: just where the documentation is best right now. It happened everywhere. Now.

893
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: The women who survived and escaped often did so only

894
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 1: after enduring profound abuse. Mary Merritt was incarcerated by the

895
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 1: Sisters of Mercy when she was sixteen. She had been

896
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: born in a workhouse to a single mother, and her

897
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: own entrance to the Magdalene laundries was assured when she

898
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: was caught stealing apples from an orchard. You gotta throw

899
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: that bitch in prison. She stay at apples, so the

900
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: nuns renamed her Attracta, and she was. She spent the

901
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:55,879
Speaker 1: next fourteen years of her life in a convent where

902
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 1: she was regularly beaten and abused. When she was thirty,

903
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: Mary managed to escape. Unfortunately, the first person she went

904
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 1: to for help was a Catholic priest who raped her.

905
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 1: She became pregnant and was taken back into the system

906
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 1: because now she's a sinful single mother. Her child was

907
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:13,760
Speaker 1: taken from her and given up for adoption without her consent.

908
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,280
Speaker 1: The good news is that Mary did eventually escape forever.

909
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 1: She found love and was married for more than fifty years.

910
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 1: Mary's story makes the peculiar dimensions of incarceration, and the

911
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: laundry is clear. She was repeatedly told you are free

912
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,359
Speaker 1: to leave at any time, and in the legal sense

913
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 1: of the word, that was probably true. She was not

914
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:36,839
Speaker 1: legally incarcerated for life, but she was kept there much

915
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: longer than she wanted to be because leaving was not

916
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: really an option for her most women. Not only was

917
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:44,319
Speaker 1: their physical coercion, there was the fact that a lot

918
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 1: of these women had no money, no family support, no

919
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 1: way of supporting themselves outside of the church. And if

920
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 1: you leave the church and you have no money and

921
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: you wind up on the street, where do you go

922
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 1: a facility operated by the Catholic Church. If you decide

923
00:52:57,600 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: the only way I can make money is by selling

924
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:01,760
Speaker 1: my body on the street because I have no other options,

925
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 1: where do you go? You go to the again, it's this,

926
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 1: you're free to leave. You're not free to leave? Now again?

927
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 1: About ten women, maybe much more, we don't know. There

928
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 1: is no escape. Well, I mean she did get out eventually,

929
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 1: but it took her thirty years, you know, yeah uh,

930
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 1: And thankfully, you know, she she seems to have found

931
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 1: true love and was married for fifty years and had

932
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 1: a good life after that, which is about the best

933
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: case scenario you get for someone who has to go

934
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 1: through this ship. She doesn't find her kid um. Now again,

935
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 1: about ten thousand women were run through the laundries from

936
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 1: about to the nineteen nineties, but that doesn't give the

937
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 1: whole story of the scale of church incarceration in Ireland.

938
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 1: The laundries were one set of institutions. There were also

939
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: workhouses for young boys and young adult men who had

940
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: been incarcerated as children. There were asylums for people with

941
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:58,320
Speaker 1: special needs. The Irish Times writes, quote in the nineteen fifties,

942
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 1: this country locked up one percent of its population. We

943
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 1: incarcerated more people per head of population than Stalin did

944
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 1: in Russia. The Catholic Church during the entirety of the

945
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 1: Cold War incarcerated a higher percentage of the Irish population

946
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:20,440
Speaker 1: for like stealing apples and ship than Stalin did in

947
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 1: the U s s R. Not to whitewash Stalin, but

948
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 1: let's let's let's keep in mind the scale of the

949
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 1: crimes of you know, organizations opposed to the Catholic Church. Yeah,

950
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 1: that's putting up some serious numbers, Like you come in

951
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 1: here with a triple double when no one even knew you.

952
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 1: Gotta like that. And one of the points a lot

953
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 1: of people will rightly make is that the Irish, the

954
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 1: Catholic Church and ire Ireland in its earliest decades of

955
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:53,959
Speaker 1: independence was a theocracy. It was not a free nation.

956
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:55,879
Speaker 1: They had fought so long for free and and again

957
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 1: that's why I started with the English. I don't want

958
00:54:57,680 --> 00:54:59,320
Speaker 1: to just be harping on the just be harping on

959
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 1: the Irish government the Catholic Church, because part of this

960
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 1: is inevitable just by how horrifically abused they are by

961
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 1: the English right. That's how abuse works in societies as

962
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 1: well as individuals. If you don't actively attempt to reform it,

963
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:15,320
Speaker 1: it gets perpetuated down through the generations. Yeah, but truly

964
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:22,320
Speaker 1: the only trickle down economics. Um, So it's important that

965
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:24,320
Speaker 1: we note that, Like, as much as we should be

966
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 1: blaming the Catholic Church and the Irish government in this period,

967
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 1: a decent amount of this is also on fucking Great Britain. Right,

968
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 1: they start a lot of the they start a lot

969
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,279
Speaker 1: of this cycle of trauma. Um. And in part they

970
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 1: start because the government has no money, has this need

971
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 1: for the church to provide services, and because being Catholic

972
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 1: had been oppressed for so much, it's become part of

973
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 1: the Irish identity of oppression, which led to people not

974
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,800
Speaker 1: being as sort of you know, and they've massacred a

975
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:50,320
Speaker 1: lot of the people who maybe would have fought for

976
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:52,280
Speaker 1: a more secular state. You know. All of this stuff

977
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:55,920
Speaker 1: factors into it. But Ireland is a fucking theocracy in

978
00:55:56,040 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 1: this period of time with a brutal car serrale state. Um.

979
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's it's it's cool, Um, it's cool and

980
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 1: good Sophia. And on Thursday we're going to talk about

981
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 1: how the most popular board game company in the world

982
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 1: tied into all of this. But Sophia, that's a story

983
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 1: for another day. May I wear my Monopoly Man out

984
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:25,280
Speaker 1: the next please dresses the Monopoly Man, stick your fingers

985
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 1: in the operation guy and trap mice for episode two

986
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:38,360
Speaker 1: of How the Catholic Church Murdered Ireland's babies. And anyway,

987
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:41,799
Speaker 1: let's get an air horn or two here, really buck

988
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:46,360
Speaker 1: us up. Thank you. Thank you, sad Air Horns Sofia

989
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 1: you've got any plugables to plug? Sure? Um, it's almost

990
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 1: a year since I released my album Father's Day. You

991
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 1: should definitely get it. It was number one on ITUE.

992
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:04,440
Speaker 1: It's stand up, it's fun and good. Uh. You can

993
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 1: get it anywhere that you get albums, but you can

994
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:11,440
Speaker 1: also get it at Sophia Alexandra dot com. And as always,

995
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:14,840
Speaker 1: you can catch me on my other podcasts for Fiance

996
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 1: with Miles Gray about and Private Parts Unknown about Love

997
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 1: and Sex Around the World with Courtney Kosak and We

998
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 1: Just Want to Believe. Hell yeah, so yeah, check that out?

999
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 1: Do it? You cowards? Listen? Do you do? Um? Well,

1000
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 1: I've been Robert Evans. This has been behind the bastards.

1001
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,760
Speaker 1: If you want to read a book that doesn't involve

1002
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:43,080
Speaker 1: mass rape by the Catholic Church, although it does involve

1003
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 1: Christian extremists, yeah, you can read my novel After the Revolution.

1004
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 1: It's available online at a t R book dot com. Uh.

1005
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 1: And it's also available wherever podcasts are found if you

1006
00:57:57,240 --> 00:57:59,120
Speaker 1: just look up After the Revolution, so you can find

1007
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 1: the text online line where there's both an in browser

1008
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 1: version and there's a free e pub no ads or anything.

1009
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 1: You can just get it for free, read it on

1010
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 1: your ear reader. And there's a podcast with sound effects

1011
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 1: and ship that's After the Revolution, So check it out

1012
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 1: every Monday, right and UM, I don't know, uh, tear

1013
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 1: up a picture of the Pope on Saturday Night Live

1014
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 1: if you get the chance. If you're on Saturday Night Live,

1015
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 1: do a send O'Connor based O'Connor. Um. All right, hey everybody.

1016
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 1: Initially I was going to plug the go fund me

1017
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 1: for the sequel to my book, UM After the Revolution,

1018
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 1: which you can find at a t r book dot com.

1019
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:44,840
Speaker 1: But um, here in the Pacific Northwest, we're having an

1020
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 1: unprecedented heat wave and it's causing disastrous conditions, life threatening

1021
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:51,800
Speaker 1: conditions for a lot of houseless people, a lot of

1022
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 1: people without air conditioning. UM, particularly in the city of Salem.

1023
00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:58,240
Speaker 1: UM activists everywhere have been kind of gathering to try

1024
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 1: and mitigate uh, set up cooling stations, hand out cold drinks,

1025
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:05,240
Speaker 1: to do things to help people get their temperature down. UM.

1026
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 1: I want to try and raise funds for the Free

1027
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 1: Fridge of Salem, UM, which are doing cooling stations in

1028
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 1: the capital of Oregon, Salem. So if you go to

1029
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:17,760
Speaker 1: venmo at Free Fridge Salem. That's venmo At Free Fridge

1030
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 1: Salem and send them a couple of bucks. They could

1031
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:23,520
Speaker 1: really use it. Um. Local government has destroyed a number

1032
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 1: like police particularly have destroyed a number of water and

1033
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 1: cooling stations they've set out. Um, it's you know, we're

1034
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 1: not going to be in triple digit heats for the

1035
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 1: next couple of days after I'm recording this on Monday,

1036
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 1: but it's still going to be very hot. People still

1037
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,800
Speaker 1: need this, So please venmo at Free Fridge Salem if

1038
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 1: you have the wherewithal and the financial resources to do

1039
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:46,920
Speaker 1: so one more time. The venemo is at Free Fridge Salem.

1040
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 1: Thanks