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Speaker 1: Hi, Steve Fishman here, creator of The Burden as well

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Speaker 1: as the number one true crime podcast, My Friend The

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Speaker 1: Serial Killer. For those of you who liked The Burden,

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Speaker 1: I have good news. Season two starts August seventh. It's

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Speaker 1: a series called The Burden Empire on Blood and it's

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Speaker 1: the director's cut of the true crime classic Empire on Blood,

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Speaker 1: which reached number one on the charts when it debuted

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Speaker 1: half a dozen years ago. Then the fat cat funders

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Speaker 1: abandon it. I wrangled it back and now I'm thrilled

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Speaker 1: to share this story of a man who fought the

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Speaker 1: law for two decades, fought against the Bronx's top homicide

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Speaker 1: prosecutor and a detective sometimes known as the Louis Scarcela

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Speaker 1: of the Bronx. It's all coming to you August seventh.

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Speaker 1: Wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Everyone seems you're guilty. If you're at that defense stive.

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Speaker 2: Reasonable doubt is a fucking fictional term. The presumption of

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Speaker 2: innocence is a fictional term.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another bonus episode of the Burden.

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Speaker 3: I'm Steve Fishman and I'm Dax s Devlin Ross and

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Speaker 3: that was justin Bonas a passionate young lawyer. You might

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Speaker 3: remember from episode eight.

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Speaker 2: Justin bones on Behead and Nelson CRUs Good Morning office you.

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Speaker 1: Justin represented Nelson Cruz, one of the members of the

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Speaker 1: actual Innocence Team, at a hearing to try to win

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Speaker 1: his freedom. You might also remember that Justin had a

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Speaker 1: little trouble that day, and he knew it.

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Speaker 2: I'm a young guy, you know what I mean. I

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Speaker 2: gotta work out some of my kinks.

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Speaker 3: And then when Nelson Cruz's motion was denied, we witnessed

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Speaker 3: another side of Justin. He leaped to his feet at

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Speaker 3: the defense.

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Speaker 1: Table, outraged and well, I was in the courtroom and

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Speaker 1: it looked to me like he was on the verge

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Speaker 1: of tears.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna believe that on the day of his birthday

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Speaker 2: he kills somebody. Let's think about that for a second.

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Speaker 2: He's sixteen.

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Speaker 1: It's been a little over three years since that hearing,

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Speaker 1: and Justin has come up in the world. He and

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Speaker 1: his mentor, that's Derrick Hamilton, have pursued cases of wrongful

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Speaker 1: conviction around the country. In Louisiana, Justin got a wrongfully

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Speaker 1: convicted man out of prison after forty four years.

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Speaker 2: But you know what this case is about this was

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Speaker 2: a legal lynching.

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Speaker 3: That's what this was. That's what this was. For this episode,

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Speaker 3: we wanted to understand Justin's unusual passion, like where does

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Speaker 3: it come from? So on today's very special episode, Justin

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Speaker 3: bonus for the Fence. In his own words, where.

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Speaker 2: Are you from Jersey? Right outside of Trent. I'm from

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Speaker 2: like the suburban. Yeah, I'm definitely from the suburbs. Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: I grew up in New Jersey. I was born and

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Speaker 2: raised in New Jersey. Was a good student in high school.

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Speaker 2: I got over four point zero. I graduated from NYU

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Speaker 2: with like a three to two. You know. It was

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Speaker 2: a philosophy major at NYU. Philostity was very difficult as

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Speaker 2: NYU a lot of very hot competition. I guess I

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Speaker 2: didn't take enough asst to do well enough there. But

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Speaker 2: like whatever, my roommate was doing videos for Acinelly, he

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Speaker 2: used to come stay in her dorm room. Kanelli Adams rapper.

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Speaker 3: Okinelly Ocinelli was an underground wrapper, best known for his

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Speaker 3: nineteen ninety six hit put It in Your Mouth.

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Speaker 2: We shoot videos from And he said, bones what he did,

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Speaker 2: That's what my nickname is. Bones. What are you doing

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Speaker 2: for the summer, I said, I'm working at the fitness

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Speaker 2: center at NYU.

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Speaker 3: But Oconelly had another idea. Bones He thought should work

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Speaker 3: for the legal side of the rat business.

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Speaker 2: Literally, I walk in. I talked to his attorney, Scott Felterer.

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Speaker 2: He talk about a guy that I represented, like on

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Speaker 2: oz Acnelly, large professor on. He got me the job there,

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Speaker 2: and then that's how I ended up meeting the rappers.

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Speaker 2: I ended up working with these guys named bowen Villa.

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Speaker 2: We started a record label called Deebo Status. But I

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Speaker 2: also I basically kind of managed them. One was from

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Speaker 2: Browns with the others from East New York, and that

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Speaker 2: started bringing me out there.

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Speaker 3: In fact, Justin actually wound up moving into the projects.

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Speaker 2: I lived in Brookline houses out in East New York

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Speaker 2: or Canarsie, whatever you want to call that, and then

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Speaker 2: I lived on Colonial Uptown. In all of them they

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Speaker 2: called him the t all those wrangle houses. Now why

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Speaker 2: was this? Was this because of your connection with the raffers?

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Speaker 2: They brought you in there or what I mean? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And then I wasn't making enough money like it. Let

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Speaker 2: me tell you something. I was like a three hundred

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Speaker 2: dollars a week working at an entertainment law firm doing

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Speaker 2: contracts for big, big, big name people, big name people.

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Speaker 2: But I wasn't a lawyer. I was basically a glorified intern.

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Speaker 2: But are you going to afford making three hundred dollars

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Speaker 2: a week? Was in the project? It's horrible, horrible. Don't

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Speaker 2: take the elevator, man, I mean, shit happens in elevators.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about like aggressiveness of people. You understand what

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Speaker 2: I'm saying. Like New York has that real New York.

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Speaker 2: I'm not talking about these hypsos over here, you know,

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Speaker 2: supreme puffs, these soft people. You know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: Were you the only white guy in the team? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: where do you fit in?

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Speaker 3: Or you're not in a cream puff? But what do

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Speaker 3: you mean by I mean?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I can handle myself, but I'm not a tough guy.

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Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 3: Life in the projects also gave Justin an up close

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Speaker 3: peak at the real, mean, the real criminal justice system.

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Speaker 2: No one knows what it's like when you get drug

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Speaker 2: out of your car with a gun to your head

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Speaker 2: by a cop until you've actually been there. I've been there.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing you could say to them that will convince

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Speaker 2: them that you're not doing anything wrong.

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Speaker 3: When did that? When?

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Speaker 2: When? How many times? How many times have I been

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Speaker 2: brought out of my car by a bullhorn with two

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Speaker 2: black men in the car and the police doesn't matter

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Speaker 2: whether they're black white is? It doesn't matter? Said, with

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Speaker 2: the fucking spotlight on me? Why are you hanging with

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Speaker 2: these people? Why are you in this neighborhood?

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Speaker 3: Well, anyway, the record label it didn't work out.

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Speaker 2: Everybody was young, and we made a bunch of bad

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Speaker 2: decisions and it wasn't my proudest moment. Rappers were really

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Speaker 2: they were all over the place and people wanted to

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Speaker 2: work with them, but we just we were just a

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Speaker 2: punch and knucklehead. A street element was too heavy with everybody,

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Speaker 2: not me, for save, but there were other people. And

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Speaker 2: then it was just a lot of I ad decisions.

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Speaker 2: I was doing a lot of shit I shouldn't. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that's why I fell out of law school. You were

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Speaker 2: in law schooling at the same time. Yeah, I was

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Speaker 2: going to tourel out in long Own. Oh okay, I

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Speaker 2: was sleeping in my car, sleeping in my car. Wait,

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Speaker 2: why are we sleeping in your car? Because I didn't

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Speaker 2: really have an apartment at the time, from like most

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Speaker 2: of most of two thousand and five, I didn't have

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Speaker 2: a place to live and I got a victim from

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Speaker 2: the projects and I got into Toro probably two years

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Speaker 2: after I graduated, and it was like like a culture shock,

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Speaker 2: because you like, law school is that much work? It

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Speaker 2: really is. I'm not a good test taker and all

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Speaker 2: it is in law school is in the final. That's it.

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Speaker 3: Well, Justin at lyon in his case at least it

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Speaker 3: didn't go well.

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Speaker 2: I hate the fucking rock bottom man. When I felt

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Speaker 2: out of law school, fell out of law school, you

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Speaker 2: just blew sixty grand and student loans and it's not pleasant.

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Speaker 1: Justin worked as a paralegal for a couple of years,

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Speaker 1: then went back to law school, this time in Rhode Island,

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't long before he started to hear from

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Speaker 1: some of his old contacts in the hip hop world.

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Speaker 2: They knew that, you know, I was going to end

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Speaker 2: up being a lawyer. So you know, everybody thinks, well,

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Speaker 2: because you're a lawyer, you know all law, which is

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Speaker 2: not true. I attempted to help people and going into

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Speaker 2: the second time I was in law school, I probably

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Speaker 2: at this point knew about five or six people doing

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Speaker 2: a lot of time for homicides, and you know bribery,

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Speaker 2: you know drug conspiracies in the sets.

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Speaker 3: And that's how Justin wound up meeting Derek Hamilton, the

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Speaker 3: towering jail house lawyer in our series.

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Speaker 2: One Guy I wrote a brief for and a portion

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Speaker 2: of the brief was about insufficiency the evidence on bribery

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Speaker 2: count and Derek Court went into that and got a

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Speaker 2: chance to read it. And then he read my directed

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Speaker 2: research project in law school, which was about accomplished witnesses

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Speaker 2: about how they're unreliable and they really should never be

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Speaker 2: used because of their inherent unreliability, and then that's kind

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Speaker 2: of reached out to me.

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Speaker 3: Justin was smitten.

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Speaker 2: It's impressive, to say the least. He is very very

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Speaker 2: good at what he does.

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Speaker 3: Remember Justin's nickname for Derek Google Legal.

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Speaker 2: He's worth his weight in goals. I don't know if

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Speaker 2: this a more expensive commodity, but he's like, I'm not

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Speaker 2: a human being. He's very intelligent. He's a fucking good writer.

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Speaker 2: He's a better writer than I am. Very good writer,

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Speaker 2: very good writer. He knows the law pretty much better

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Speaker 2: than anybody else does. And he comes with this knowledge

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Speaker 2: base that nobody else hans. Nobody it's a real advantage

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Speaker 2: to have in.

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Speaker 3: Him, and Derek in turn believes it's a real advantage

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Speaker 3: having Justin. He knows Justin is still not the most

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Speaker 3: experienced lawyer, to say the least, but he sees something

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Speaker 3: else than Justin.

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Speaker 2: Justin would stand up in front of a judge and say, Judge,

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Speaker 2: you're wrong, and be upset and angry and argue.

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Speaker 3: And he's young enough to be bothered by now. Derek

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Speaker 3: and Justin have worked on a lot of legal challenges

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Speaker 3: and appeals together all over the United States, and Justin

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Speaker 3: says there's a big difference between New York and everywhere else,

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Speaker 3: which gets this excitable Justin well excited.

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Speaker 2: I will tell you I've handled cases in Maine, I've

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Speaker 2: handled cases in Georgia. I've handed cases in North Carolina.

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Speaker 2: They want to wrap a motherfucker in not just through testimony,

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Speaker 2: they want to do it through forensics and everything. You

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Speaker 2: don't see that in the NYPD, and it's not because

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Speaker 2: they're not capable of that.

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Speaker 3: And the DA's what about their.

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Speaker 2: Outlook, das really is they don't really play too fair.

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Speaker 2: It's the problem. They don't believe defendants are ever innocent

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Speaker 2: to take a hard line stance across the board.

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Speaker 3: How does Justin think Scarcela fits into all of this?

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Speaker 2: It's that he is a fucking tip of Iceberg. Now

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Speaker 2: got two cases in me, now, single eyewitness cases right

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Speaker 2: now that I almost positive I can prove that the

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Speaker 2: witnesses didn't see how the person got shot through recreating

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Speaker 2: the crime scene. But the DA's office and the medical

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Speaker 2: examiner won't let me get the pictures of the victim.

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Speaker 2: I got one guy who says that my guy shot

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Speaker 2: this guy in the back of his head, but the

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Speaker 2: autopsy report shows that the guy was shot in the

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Speaker 2: front of his head and the bullet went out his back.

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Speaker 2: And he says, my guy is five foot eleven. It

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Speaker 2: just happens to be that my guy could have been

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Speaker 2: fucking Latreull's free. Well, he's six foot five.

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Speaker 3: So Justin and Derek have become a magnet for hopeless cases.

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Speaker 2: I have eighty cases, eighty eighty, and I got probably

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Speaker 2: thirty guys that were at the very least, at the

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Speaker 2: very least they didn't receive a fair trial. Most of

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Speaker 2: those men are innocent. I would say, over twenty guys

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Speaker 2: in New York. Yes, are innocent that I can pools

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Speaker 2: their innocence. Well, these fans are looking and having bones

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Speaker 2: in their corner. Well, Jesus, don't get crazy. They're still

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Speaker 2: in prison.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're fighting.

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Speaker 2: Oh I'm trying.

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Speaker 3: So just one last question for Justin. Let's see if

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Speaker 3: we can rile them up. What does he think of

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Speaker 3: the cops and prosecutors?

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Speaker 2: Listen? I mean, you really want to know how I feel.

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Speaker 2: I fucking hate all these people, but I have to

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Speaker 2: be professional.

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Speaker 3: Justin. Bonus everyone. By the way, Nelson Cruz will be

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Speaker 3: back in court soon and Justin file the federal appeal

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Speaker 3: and he wont to hear it. This episode was produced

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Speaker 3: by Drew Nellis. Our associate producer and production coordinator is

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Speaker 3: Austin Smith. Sound isigned by Bianca Salinas, Steve Fishman and

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Speaker 3: myself Dax Devin Ross. We're your hosts. The Burden is

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Speaker 3: a production of Orbit Media.

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Speaker 1: Season two of The Burden Empire on Blood will be

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Speaker 1: available everywhere you get your podcasts on August seventh. All

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Speaker 1: episodes will be available early and ad free, along with

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Speaker 1: exclusive bonus content on Orbit's newly launched True Crime Clubhouse,

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Speaker 1: our subscription channel on Apple Podcasts. It's only two ninety

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Speaker 1: nine a month.