Speaker 1: Did you know that on the day Doctor King was shot,
Speaker 1: the all block security detail normally assigned to him was
Speaker 1: called off. They're the ones who would not allow him
Speaker 1: to stay at any hotel with balconies. This was all about.
Speaker 1: This is the MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now.
Speaker 1: Listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. The Gangster Chronicles podcast is
Speaker 1: a weekly conversation that revolves around the underworld and criminals
Speaker 1: and entertainers to victims, crime and law enforcement. We cover
Speaker 1: all facets of the game. Gainster Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify
Speaker 1: from modilicit activities. We just discussed the ramifications and repercussions
Speaker 1: of these activities because after all, she played gamester games.
Speaker 1: You are ultimately rewarded with Gangster prizes. Our Heart radio
Speaker 1: is number one for podcasts, but don't take our award
Speaker 1: for it. Find against the Animal's podcast and my Heart
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Speaker 1: left out, and for people who moved to this country,
Speaker 1: that feeling lasts more than a moment. We can change that.
Speaker 1: Learn how it Belonging begins with us dot Org brought
Speaker 1: to you by the Ad Council. I'm Stephen Merchant. I
Speaker 1: was the co creator of the British version of the Office,
Speaker 1: and I'm an executive producer on the American version. Hello,
Speaker 1: dear listeners, and welcome to another installment of The Office
Speaker 1: Deep Dive. I am your host, Brian bom Gartner. Now
Speaker 1: today I am thrilled to present you with a guest
Speaker 1: from across the pond over in jolly old England, Mr
Speaker 1: Stephen Merchant. Steve In was the co creator of the
Speaker 1: original British version of the Office. He along with Ricky Gervaise. Now,
Speaker 1: what the two of them did with that show was
Speaker 1: truly groundbreaking and obviously was the inspiration and basis of
Speaker 1: our show, but they have also had a huge influence
Speaker 1: on comedy in general, both here in the US and
Speaker 1: in the UK, where based on their accents I'm guessing
Speaker 1: they are from. So you know, when we were setting
Speaker 1: up these interviews, I was kind of thinking, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I might get a free trip to London out of this, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, I've I've got to meet with Ricky and
Speaker 1: Stephen in person. Of course I gotta go to London.
Speaker 1: And then a global pandemic happened. So sadly that was
Speaker 1: not going to happen. But I feel very lucky, uh
Speaker 1: that we got to speak by phone from our respective homes.
Speaker 1: I think you guys are going to love this one. So,
Speaker 1: without further ado, my tallest friend, Stephen Merchant, Bubble and squeak,
Speaker 1: I love it. Bubble and squeaker, Bubble and squeaker cookie
Speaker 1: every month left over from the NATT before. Yeah, how
Speaker 1: are you doing? You know, I mean as well as
Speaker 1: anyone can be expected to, you know, given the crazy circumstances. Yes,
Speaker 1: you're you're in London, I mean London, and same lockdown
Speaker 1: rules apply here as they apply restaurant. And yeah, just
Speaker 1: you know, porting around, I mean in quite a relax outfit.
Speaker 1: I think the demarcation between my sleepwear and my daywear
Speaker 1: is very, very blurred. Ka. I know the people who
Speaker 1: get dressed up to go to work at home, I
Speaker 1: don't understand those people. I do encourage at least showering
Speaker 1: before you start working. Really, Yeah, that's a good idea.
Speaker 1: It's a good rule of thumb. Yeah, it's probably good. Um,
Speaker 1: how did you know Ricky before you guys started the office,
Speaker 1: or how did that come about? Well, so I met
Speaker 1: Ricky Gervaise at radio station here in London. I had
Speaker 1: wanted to get into radio. I always thought that being
Speaker 1: like a radio DJ seemed like a very easy job.
Speaker 1: You could do maybe two hours a day, and then
Speaker 1: you would give you a lot of free time to
Speaker 1: do other stuff, whether it was writing or stand up
Speaker 1: or whatever other aspirations I had. So I was keen
Speaker 1: to get into radio, and I am I was quite young,
Speaker 1: I was in my early twenties, and I sent my
Speaker 1: resume to various radio stations and no one cared. But
Speaker 1: a new radio station was launching in London, and one
Speaker 1: of the guys who happened to read my resume was Ricky,
Speaker 1: who was just got a job there. And he had
Speaker 1: never had any experience in radio. And it's not how
Speaker 1: sweet talked his way into a job to air as
Speaker 1: get this that the head of speech, the head of
Speaker 1: job title, the head of speech. I mean, if you've
Speaker 1: ever heard Ricky string of sentence together, often it's incoherent.
Speaker 1: So I don't know how he got that gig. So
Speaker 1: he immediately decided he needed an assistance. And so I
Speaker 1: was available and keen and eager, and and so he
Speaker 1: called me for an interview, and we hit it off,
Speaker 1: and and I started working at this radio station together. Right,
Speaker 1: he needed an assistant, but really he needed someone to
Speaker 1: actually teach him speech. Oh and also someone who, as
Speaker 1: he himself admitted during the interview, someone who will do
Speaker 1: all the work for me. Um. And I was kind
Speaker 1: of eager, and I didn't have a job, and I
Speaker 1: had done a little bit of sort of amateur radio
Speaker 1: and student radio, so I had a little bit of
Speaker 1: an understanding of it. And so, you know, we we
Speaker 1: hit it off very quickly, similar sense of humor, and
Speaker 1: within short while we were sort of actually hosting a
Speaker 1: radio show together on on the air, and just had
Speaker 1: a good easy rapport, you know, and and a similar
Speaker 1: sensibility and and we sort of very quickly realized we
Speaker 1: you know, we had sort of a chemistry, right. And
Speaker 1: then you obviously you you started working together. What were
Speaker 1: the influences for you at the time to create the
Speaker 1: UK Office. Well, at the time in the UK, there
Speaker 1: had been a number of shows on the BBC and
Speaker 1: other networks that were fly on the wall documentaries about
Speaker 1: very everyday subject like there was there was one about
Speaker 1: a driving school, driving school, Yes, and it was, yeah,
Speaker 1: and so you know, it was just following normal people
Speaker 1: doing driving lessons and driving tests and this kind of
Speaker 1: a wave of popularity in the UK. And so when
Speaker 1: we did our version, we had those sorts of shows
Speaker 1: in our mind. And one of the unusual things about
Speaker 1: those shows was that often partinking when they returned for
Speaker 1: like a second season, the people within them had sort
Speaker 1: of become moderate, moderately famous, right, So they were those
Speaker 1: first kind of reality TV stars, and and they started
Speaker 1: to act differently in front of the cameras or they
Speaker 1: were aware of the cameras, and so I think that
Speaker 1: was something that was always informing us, you know, the
Speaker 1: idea that this documentary team, we're following this person in
Speaker 1: the in the case of David Brent Ricky, who who
Speaker 1: was also aware that he was being filmed and so
Speaker 1: therefore was trying to give over a version of himself
Speaker 1: that he thought the world would love to see. And
Speaker 1: of course what he didn't realize was they are actually
Speaker 1: looking at him and finding interesting different reasons than those
Speaker 1: that he intended, right right, Yeah, that's very interesting. I mean,
Speaker 1: now the skips ahead like you know, fifteen years or whatever,
Speaker 1: but it's very interesting you know. That's one of the
Speaker 1: things that Greg Daniels always said was that for the
Speaker 1: characters on the American version of The Office, if they
Speaker 1: ever saw themselves, like if it was ever really least,
Speaker 1: it would change everything right. Well, in the in the
Speaker 1: British version, we did, because the British version has fewer seasons.
Speaker 1: We did when we returned for some Christmas specials towards
Speaker 1: the end of the run, we did actually play with
Speaker 1: the idea that the characters had seen the documentary it
Speaker 1: aired and that they had various or particularly the case
Speaker 1: of Ricky's character, had disgruntlements about the way they've been portrayed,
Speaker 1: which is often the complaint you'd hear from real reality people,
Speaker 1: right that, you know, and they kind of in a
Speaker 1: certain way they maybe look like And so we were
Speaker 1: playing with that idea, and I guess you had it
Speaker 1: with sort of MTV is the real world, I guess did.
Speaker 1: It was one of the pioneers. And in the UK
Speaker 1: there was that show Big Brother, which I know is
Speaker 1: still on in various versions all over the world, and
Speaker 1: that just kind of hit the airwaves as well, and
Speaker 1: those people were coming out of this this house as
Speaker 1: reality TV stars so it was a big cultural thing
Speaker 1: at the time. Right. Were there specific comedies or other
Speaker 1: television that sort of informed the sense of bility, do
Speaker 1: you or the sense of humor that you were looking
Speaker 1: at at the time. Well, certainly This is Final Tap
Speaker 1: was a big influence, and the Larry Sanders Show was
Speaker 1: something that we often referenced. And there's actually been quite
Speaker 1: a few if you had fake documentaries in movies over
Speaker 1: the years, but there had been fewer of them on TV,
Speaker 1: it seemed to us. And and you know, in a
Speaker 1: way because it sort of originated because I happened to
Speaker 1: get a job at the BBC. I was worried in
Speaker 1: my radio job with Ricky that we might end up
Speaker 1: getting fired rich I think we did. So I had
Speaker 1: jumped ship and I joined the BBC, and while I
Speaker 1: was there, I had a training exercise and they gave
Speaker 1: me a camera team for a day and they said,
Speaker 1: you want to go to film something? And I went
Speaker 1: off and went to Ricky and I said, let's film something.
Speaker 1: And what we filmed sort of became a prototype of
Speaker 1: the office. And one of the reasons we did that
Speaker 1: in a documentary style was because it was quick and easy,
Speaker 1: you know, it didn't. It didn't need to have all
Speaker 1: the kind of polish and refinement that you get on
Speaker 1: regular TV. So in a way, we we you fell
Speaker 1: into this format through circumstance, but because we pursued that,
Speaker 1: and we became very obsessive about the reality of this
Speaker 1: world and wherever the cameras being. How would the people
Speaker 1: act in front of the cameras they knew it was
Speaker 1: watching them. Would they be honest? Would Kim states at dawn?
Speaker 1: Jim and Pam? Would they would they be honest with
Speaker 1: each other about their feelings? For one, Well, of course not,
Speaker 1: because the cameras are in their face and they don't
Speaker 1: want to reveal their hidden secrets. And so it sort
Speaker 1: of started becoming its own thing, which I think felt
Speaker 1: at the time quite new on TV. But it wasn't
Speaker 1: sort of like a you know, a grand design, and
Speaker 1: we didn't sort of sit there and think what's fresh
Speaker 1: and new. It just all these things kept suggesting themselves
Speaker 1: to us because we were trying to make you feel
Speaker 1: as realistic as possible, as though you could stumble on
Speaker 1: the TV network and you'd find out and you might
Speaker 1: think it was a real documentary. In fact, funny enough,
Speaker 1: after the first episode aired, I was on a train
Speaker 1: and obviously people have no idea who I was. I
Speaker 1: was just a writer. And these two women were talking
Speaker 1: on the train and I was sat next to them
Speaker 1: and they said. One of them said, or did you
Speaker 1: see that documentary on TV last night about this crazy
Speaker 1: guy in this office? It was hilarious, And the other
Speaker 1: woman said, well, no, I think I think that was
Speaker 1: a new comedy and the first woman said, oh, well,
Speaker 1: it wasn't very funny. Then I didn't understand. But but
Speaker 1: what was interesting was that she had been fooled for
Speaker 1: a second into thinking it was the real thing, which
Speaker 1: was the biggest compliment that we could we could hope for, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember hearing that a lot over here.
Speaker 1: Did how was it received early on? I think he
Speaker 1: was sort of had very low viewership initially. Um. I
Speaker 1: think there's been some good critical notices here and there,
Speaker 1: but no one was really watching. I think it went
Speaker 1: on in the summer, which is not a prime TV
Speaker 1: time in the UK. And I remember they had done it.
Speaker 1: We found this out many years later, but they had
Speaker 1: done a test screening for the general public and it
Speaker 1: had got the lowest test score ever The only thing
Speaker 1: that beat him, that got the lowest test score was
Speaker 1: women's lawn bowls, a very specific game played by I
Speaker 1: guess women in the UK and they roll balls along
Speaker 1: the lawn and that was the only thing that I
Speaker 1: didn't even though that was on TV, but it scored
Speaker 1: lower in the Office. And yet what happened was it
Speaker 1: just started to pick up steam. It got word of
Speaker 1: mouth recommendations from people, It started to win some awards.
Speaker 1: It was rerun in the in the winter, and more
Speaker 1: people started watching it. And then there was the moment
Speaker 1: in time when DVDs were really big and was started
Speaker 1: buying DVD players, and so I think that it started
Speaker 1: selling a lot of DVDs because I think people were like, oh,
Speaker 1: I can buy that guy I know in the office
Speaker 1: that show called The Office. And so solely we sold
Speaker 1: so many DVDs because he was called the Office and
Speaker 1: people have a lot of work colleagues they need to
Speaker 1: buy gifts for. It's a and then it and then
Speaker 1: it just became a kind of here in the UK.
Speaker 1: It became a little mini phenomenon. Yes, well in the
Speaker 1: States too, we were getting I remember there were DVDs
Speaker 1: coming over. But the DVDs in the UK were different
Speaker 1: than so you had to make sure you've got an
Speaker 1: America one that would play an American player. Yes, of course, yes,
Speaker 1: my sister had an early one who was over there.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I, um, did you think that adapting the
Speaker 1: show when you started to first hear about this guy
Speaker 1: Ben Silverman maybe wanting to adapt it for the U S,
Speaker 1: did you think that was a good idea? Well, I remember, Ricky,
Speaker 1: I was we must have been editing something because Ricky,
Speaker 1: remember cam in the editing stree you said, I just
Speaker 1: ran into this guy called Ben Silverman or Ben silver
Speaker 1: gonna track him down and then pulled him and he
Speaker 1: had this initial meeting about doing a version for the
Speaker 1: United States, and I remember saying at the time, oh, well,
Speaker 1: that would be great, but the chances of that working
Speaker 1: are very slim. I when I was a kid, I
Speaker 1: was a real fan of TV and Comma read a
Speaker 1: lot about it, and I knew a lot about American comedy,
Speaker 1: and I knew that they had tried to adapt very
Speaker 1: successful British shows for America, and any of them had
Speaker 1: failed for one reason or another, and so I was
Speaker 1: aware that the success rate was very low and that
Speaker 1: and that we shouldn't get too excited about this as
Speaker 1: a sort of potential next phase of our careers because
Speaker 1: I just I just thought, well, it's probably not going
Speaker 1: to work out, even with the best will in the world,
Speaker 1: So why not let's let them do it, and you know,
Speaker 1: good luck to them, and it would be fun. And
Speaker 1: I was a big fan, and I'm a big fan
Speaker 1: of American comedy, and you know, certainly a big influence
Speaker 1: on us was like Cheers and the idea of you know,
Speaker 1: the Cheers bar is this kind of surrogut family, which
Speaker 1: is very much what the Office is, I guess in anyways,
Speaker 1: And so we were excited about the idea of it
Speaker 1: being on American TV and having an American version, but
Speaker 1: but also very realistic that it seemed unlikely it would
Speaker 1: it would succeed for whatever reason. Yeah, it's a hard
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Speaker 1: money laundering business. The best fakes are still hanging off
Speaker 1: people's walls. You know they don't even know or suspect
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Speaker 1: podcast about deception, greed and forgery in the art world.
Speaker 1: You knew the painting was fake. Um, Listen to Art
Speaker 1: Fraud on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. The Gangster Chronicles podcast is
Speaker 1: a weekly conversation that revolves around the underworld, the criminals
Speaker 1: and entertainers to victims, crime and law enforcement. We cover
Speaker 1: all facets of the game. Gainster Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify
Speaker 1: promotilist of activities. We just discussed the ramifications and repercussions
Speaker 1: of these activities because after all, you played gamester games.
Speaker 1: You are ultimately rewarded with Gangster prizes. Our Heart Radios
Speaker 1: number one for podcasts, but don't take our award for it.
Speaker 1: Find against the Chronicles podcast and my Heart radio app
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcast. So that Silverman approaches
Speaker 1: you about adapting the series for America, do you remember
Speaker 1: the first time you met Bend. I don't think anyone
Speaker 1: can forget. The first time they meet Ben Silverman. You know,
Speaker 1: he isn't sort of as you well know, a kind
Speaker 1: of force of nature. Um, just yeah, it's like a
Speaker 1: man who has drunk, you know, fifteen espresso's just directly
Speaker 1: before the meeting to just really get himself awake. And
Speaker 1: he's often running, and he's whenever they do movies about Hollywood,
Speaker 1: they always have like a producer character. It was like
Speaker 1: a talk talk about a minute. You know what we're
Speaker 1: gonna make, You're gonna starts kid, And he's kind of
Speaker 1: like that. You know, Benny is like the kind of
Speaker 1: Hollywood producer cliche that you see in movies. And yet listen,
Speaker 1: it works. You know, he's dynamic and he and he
Speaker 1: got the thing moving and it seemed like, you know,
Speaker 1: before we knew it, we were having meetings in the US,
Speaker 1: sitting down to talk with potential show runners and and
Speaker 1: we were off to the races. Did you so, you know,
Speaker 1: you you trust this guy Ben, and you meet Greg
Speaker 1: and you feel like he understands it. Was there a
Speaker 1: certain point that you thought that it might work for
Speaker 1: American audiences or were you still being sort of realists
Speaker 1: and skeptical that it would translate. You know, we were
Speaker 1: very infused by Greg and Gregg came to London and
Speaker 1: he sat with us and we kind of dissected the
Speaker 1: British version and we tried to explain, you know what,
Speaker 1: you know, the kind of socio economics standing of all
Speaker 1: the characters, so he could kind of get his head
Speaker 1: around where they would be equivalent in the US. Where
Speaker 1: would you know, Scranton replace his slough and all these
Speaker 1: other things which he had to kind of understand. And
Speaker 1: he was very sensitive and thoughtful about that stuff, which
Speaker 1: is exciting for us. But then it was obviously then
Speaker 1: he's casting and could they find the guy that would
Speaker 1: replace Ricky? And so I just remember each step of
Speaker 1: the way we were kind of not suspicious or nervous,
Speaker 1: but just thinking, oh, they still probably evaporate right well,
Speaker 1: and the show struggled, you know, early on for you know,
Speaker 1: people didn't get it, and it was so unlike anything
Speaker 1: that was on television and in America we didn't have.
Speaker 1: Also the shows that you were sort of directly mocking,
Speaker 1: right there was like you know, MTV is the real world, right,
Speaker 1: but those were all about sexy young people. There wasn't
Speaker 1: driving school or shows like that that that you know,
Speaker 1: it was sort of directly mocking. And I heard a
Speaker 1: story as well that, you know, when we came back
Speaker 1: and we were going to come back for a season
Speaker 1: two and they only offered six more episodes, and it
Speaker 1: certainly looked like they were, you know, because Steve had
Speaker 1: four year old version. They were sort of keeping us
Speaker 1: on life support because they didn't want to look like idiots,
Speaker 1: but they still didn't believe in it. That NBC said, Okay,
Speaker 1: you can do six, but you have to cut the
Speaker 1: budget and everybody has to take less. And Ben went
Speaker 1: first to you and Ricky and thought you guys would
Speaker 1: say like no, like this is this was the deal
Speaker 1: that we made, but that you were egg Ricky, everybody
Speaker 1: said no, let's give it a shot. I mean, do
Speaker 1: you remember was that just based on you wanting the
Speaker 1: show to go on, or did you at that point
Speaker 1: think that there was something that was brewing there. I
Speaker 1: definitely remember thinking I was very pleased with what Greg
Speaker 1: and everyone had done in that first season, but I
Speaker 1: do remember thinking that I actually wanted them to break
Speaker 1: away from the British version more. I still felt there
Speaker 1: was a little bit of a feeling of like clinging
Speaker 1: onto some of the vibes or elements, or or trying
Speaker 1: to be a little too faithful to us. And what
Speaker 1: was exciting was the more that the show was moving
Speaker 1: away from the British version. And I think whether it
Speaker 1: was a conversation with greg Or, but I certainly felt
Speaker 1: that that was a plan that was starting to brew
Speaker 1: for this second season, and I was very keen, and
Speaker 1: I know Ricky was just to kind of you know,
Speaker 1: we we liked everybody and we wanted to show to
Speaker 1: do well, and whatever we could do to help and
Speaker 1: keep it on the air was important to us. I mean,
Speaker 1: the funny thing for us, you remember, is that we
Speaker 1: were here in the UK, so this was before streaming services,
Speaker 1: so we only saw the episodes on like DVDs because
Speaker 1: they had to mail over to us and we would
Speaker 1: watch them. And you know, what was weird to me
Speaker 1: was that when we did our version, we were so
Speaker 1: involved that obviously we never got to kind of enjoy
Speaker 1: it as a viewer. You know, we only ever enjoyed it,
Speaker 1: you know, in little fragments here and there. But when
Speaker 1: we got sent these DVDs from America, it was like
Speaker 1: someone had designed this show that was like on our prototype,
Speaker 1: and we were getting to enjoy it as fans, you know,
Speaker 1: we would just sit there and laugh and enjoy it,
Speaker 1: and and it was weird. It was like some kind
Speaker 1: of weird competition where you write in, hey, would you
Speaker 1: make a show about this? And they sort of mail
Speaker 1: into you every week, you know, And so we were
Speaker 1: very keen just as fans. We were keen to have
Speaker 1: it keep on the air. So you liked it, you
Speaker 1: like you like I liked it? Yeah? Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1: I thought everyone was gray and honestly I was. I
Speaker 1: was all in. Yeah. In season two, you know, one
Speaker 1: of the things that you know was done. You talk
Speaker 1: about veering from the British show, and I think a
Speaker 1: major thing that happened there in season two was the
Speaker 1: decision to soften Michael Scott, right, to not make him
Speaker 1: exactly like David Brynn. I mean, David Brent to me
Speaker 1: is a genius character that had a shelf life, right,
Speaker 1: like after twelve episodes, it's hard for him to still
Speaker 1: have a job, right and to have the show, to
Speaker 1: have the show continue, you know, softening and bringing out
Speaker 1: more of the humanity of Michael Scott. Were you in
Speaker 1: support of that. Well, it's funny because I think again
Speaker 1: it goes to what the traditions are in our two
Speaker 1: countries in terms of comedy, and I think for years
Speaker 1: in the U came in particular, there's been this long
Speaker 1: tradition of TV comedies celebrating losers and sort of laughing
Speaker 1: and losers often losers who have a slightly malevolent quality
Speaker 1: or a selfishness to them. So I think back to
Speaker 1: in the in the sixties, but the biggest TV star
Speaker 1: in the UK was a guy called Tony Hancock whose
Speaker 1: character was a kind of sort of failed actor who
Speaker 1: was kind of snobbish and would happily, you know, screw
Speaker 1: someone over for an opportunity, and that was that was
Speaker 1: a show that cleared the streets when that was on,
Speaker 1: you know. And then John Ketu's Basil Faulty in the seventies,
Speaker 1: the kind of sort of obnoxious hotel manager. So there's
Speaker 1: a long tradition in the UK of slightly unlikable leading
Speaker 1: characters in comedy. A plus combined with the fact that
Speaker 1: somehow in the UK we tolerated that bitter sweetness, that melancholy.
Speaker 1: I mean, there was a show on that was a
Speaker 1: big show in the UK when I was growing up
Speaker 1: called Whatever Happened to the Likely Lads? And it had
Speaker 1: a theme chong and the opening lyrics of the theme
Speaker 1: song of this this is a sitcom? Remember where was? Oh?
Speaker 1: What happened to you? Whatever happened to me? What became
Speaker 1: of the people we used to be? I mean it
Speaker 1: was all about failed opportunities and and miss chances and
Speaker 1: lives a life that could have been lived and everyone.
Speaker 1: So there's that sort of tradition in the UK, and
Speaker 1: I think traditionally in the US that has not been
Speaker 1: so much the case in network TV. And when you
Speaker 1: think of friends, the friends teemed true for instances very different.
Speaker 1: You know, I'll be there for you, You'll be there
Speaker 1: for So I think it seems sensible to me that
Speaker 1: if they could rewire the Office at all, it would
Speaker 1: just be to maybe downplay some of those more sort
Speaker 1: of cynical, sour British elements and just start up a
Speaker 1: bit more of that American can do right optimism, which
Speaker 1: I felt they did without I think losing the fundamental
Speaker 1: DNA of what makes the show work right. Mike Sure
Speaker 1: specifically talked about Greg mentioning the show in season two
Speaker 1: could exist exactly the same as as in the season one.
Speaker 1: The episode could be exactly the same, but just at
Speaker 1: you know, of just a little bit of hope, just
Speaker 1: a little bit of positivity for Michael Scott to make
Speaker 1: people at least potentially see some good in m whether
Speaker 1: it's giving him a love interest, you know, you're finding
Speaker 1: out he's actually he's actually good at his job in
Speaker 1: a way, you know, like those kinds of things. Well.
Speaker 1: I also think what both of the characters have in common, though,
Speaker 1: is that behind all of the things which make them
Speaker 1: kind of dislikable unlikable, they're not bad people. They're sort
Speaker 1: of just a needy people, right, And that's their great
Speaker 1: weakness is that they want to be your friend, but
Speaker 1: they also want to be your boss. And that's the
Speaker 1: thing which I think is what you when you dial
Speaker 1: into that. I think what you know, Steve Corral managed
Speaker 1: to do and the writers did was kind of bring
Speaker 1: that out more, bring out that kind of that he's
Speaker 1: a little boy really in a world of adults. And
Speaker 1: once you die into that and you see that there
Speaker 1: is a kind of lonely sweetness behind it all, then
Speaker 1: I think you start to kind of really root for
Speaker 1: the character. And I think Steve in particular has such
Speaker 1: a likable quality. But the more they could being into
Speaker 1: that part of Steve, the more popular thing of the
Speaker 1: character be well you you know, you co wrote The Convict,
Speaker 1: you directed Customer Survey, and in both of those episodes
Speaker 1: actually that we see a very vulnerable side to Michael Scott.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting that those two episodes were two that
Speaker 1: you worked on a lot. That in The Convict that
Speaker 1: he's upset that his employees think that prison is better
Speaker 1: than his office, and you start to feel, isn't it
Speaker 1: ironic that I mean, I know, I don't want to
Speaker 1: sort of play you know, partisan politics, but I mean
Speaker 1: I think whatever side of the political spectrum you're on,
Speaker 1: you'd have to admit that there is a great deal
Speaker 1: of that in in the current president of the United States,
Speaker 1: and you know, Trump has this weird neediness to be
Speaker 1: loved but also feared and respected, right, and it's a
Speaker 1: very weird mix, and it never leads to happiness because
Speaker 1: there's such a dark well, however much validation you get,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how many good with you you get,
Speaker 1: They're only obsessed about the one bad with you. And
Speaker 1: I think that's sort of what Michael Scott and Donald
Speaker 1: Trump share. And you know, and I think that's the
Speaker 1: thing which always has made me find him so funny
Speaker 1: as a character, because there's this never ending well of
Speaker 1: neediness and you just keep you can keep traveling in
Speaker 1: the compliments and the praise and the laughter, and it
Speaker 1: will never be enough. And for whatever reason, I just
Speaker 1: find that both adorable and hilarious at the same time
Speaker 1: less iforable in the case of Donald Trump. But say
Speaker 1: my point, um, well, I mean talking about politics, but
Speaker 1: not talking about politics. I mean, the British Office itself
Speaker 1: started with the premise of redundancy, right like, it's something
Speaker 1: that's a serious issue for people. I mean, the idea
Speaker 1: of of not having a job, and you know, the
Speaker 1: American Office in the end examined that as well, but
Speaker 1: also took on serious social topics, gay issues, healthcare, race relations,
Speaker 1: that small businesses going under corporate greed. You know, by
Speaker 1: by the end of our run, looking at the financial
Speaker 1: crisis was looking at real issues. How did you feel
Speaker 1: like that played out in the American version. I think
Speaker 1: our starting point had always been just being true, making
Speaker 1: true observations about our experience of office life, and we
Speaker 1: had virgin offices, so we were trying to kind of
Speaker 1: be particularly accurate about that, the way people interact with
Speaker 1: the behaviors, the strange little training exercises you had to do,
Speaker 1: and the and the sort of bureaucracy of it, and
Speaker 1: the fact that this group of people were just arbitrarily
Speaker 1: brought together and were then forced to sort of get on.
Speaker 1: And as we said in that one of our episodes,
Speaker 1: you know, you spend more time with those people than
Speaker 1: you do your own friends and family. And so that
Speaker 1: was I think the jumping off point for us was like,
Speaker 1: could we make something that felt very truthful and people
Speaker 1: recognized their working life in the show. And I think
Speaker 1: what you guys were able to do because of the
Speaker 1: share run of your show was just broaden that observation
Speaker 1: out beyond the sort of parameters of the office into
Speaker 1: those bigger ideas of you know, of relationships and and
Speaker 1: marriage and career and how the bigger world impacts on
Speaker 1: the smaller world. And you know, and obviously they were
Speaker 1: able to expand the repertoire of the characters and so
Speaker 1: you know, all of the characters, including your own, we're
Speaker 1: sort of able to be explored and deepen. So it's
Speaker 1: just I mean, one of the things I've always loved
Speaker 1: about American shows is you just have so much more
Speaker 1: reading space than air time. Just really delve into everything. Hi,
Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton and I'm excited to be back with
Speaker 1: a new season of You and Need both. You know,
Speaker 1: when we started this podcast, we were going through some
Speaker 1: tough times, and let's face it, we still are. But
Speaker 1: I am a firm believer we're stronger together. So please
Speaker 1: join me for more conversations with people who will make
Speaker 1: you think, make you laugh, and help us find a
Speaker 1: path forward. Listen to you and me both on the
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. From Cavalry Audio, the studio that brought you
Speaker 1: The Devil Within and The Shadow Grows, comes a new
Speaker 1: true crime podcast, The Pink Moon Murders. The local sheriff
Speaker 1: believes there may be more than one killer. It's been
Speaker 1: four days since those bodies were found and there's no
Speaker 1: arrest as it this morning. They were afraid it's face
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Speaker 1: or whatever. It scared me to death, Like it scared me,
Speaker 1: I was very, very intimidating to live here, crazy to
Speaker 1: think you go to sleep one night, maybe snuggling with
Speaker 1: your loved one, and or wake up, or maybe you
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Speaker 1: Joint host David Raderman as he explores one fateful night
Speaker 1: when evil descended upon small town, Ohio killed eight members
Speaker 1: of an Ohio family in a pre planned execution. The
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Speaker 1: The Pink Moon Murders is available on February twenty second,
Speaker 1: and you can follow The Pink Moon Murders on the
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. Hi. I'm Glory Adam, host of Well Read
Speaker 1: Black Girl. Each week, I sit in close conversation with
Speaker 1: one of my favorite authors of color and share stories
Speaker 1: about how they found their voice, hone their craft, and
Speaker 1: navigated the publishing worlds, and composed some of the most
Speaker 1: beautiful and meaningful words I've ever read. We journey together
Speaker 1: through the cultural moment where art, culture and literature collide
Speaker 1: and pay homage to the women whose books we grew
Speaker 1: up reading. And of course, I check in with members
Speaker 1: of the Well Read Black Girl Book Club. It's a
Speaker 1: literary kickback you never knew you needed. And you're all
Speaker 1: invited to join the club. So tell your friends, tell
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Speaker 1: Listen to Well Read Black Girl on the I Heart
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Speaker 1: The office you know as you created might be the
Speaker 1: greatest example in television history of cringe comedy. How would
Speaker 1: you define cringe comedy? I think one of my great
Speaker 1: flows is I it never occurred to me in a
Speaker 1: way that this, this cringe comedy thing would would be
Speaker 1: a label. It was not an intention to make people squirm.
Speaker 1: It was it was just that for us, it was
Speaker 1: so much funnier when someone who was trying to be funny,
Speaker 1: for instance, said a joke and then you just heard
Speaker 1: the silence, and then you just sat in the silence
Speaker 1: for as long as possible. That I don't know why,
Speaker 1: Ricky and I just found that so funny. And like,
Speaker 1: for instance, there was a thing we used to say.
Speaker 1: There was often if you come back to old episodes
Speaker 1: of The Simpsons, you'll see like one of the Simpsons
Speaker 1: characters will give a speech in front of the town
Speaker 1: and the speech will bomb and it will just cut
Speaker 1: to all the townsfolk and you'll just here, huh and
Speaker 1: to whats that was so funny and so are our
Speaker 1: attempt After all, the kind of David Brent's bad chokes
Speaker 1: was just to sit in that uncomfortable silence, and that
Speaker 1: just made us die with laughter. And it was only
Speaker 1: when we started hearing from people, oh that made me
Speaker 1: feel really uncomfortable, or I had to watch it through
Speaker 1: my fingers. Only then did it occur to us or
Speaker 1: maybe this is not always as enjoyable for people as
Speaker 1: it is for us. And I think maybe it was
Speaker 1: like I think if you work on a horror movie,
Speaker 1: because you know the blood is faith and the knife
Speaker 1: is not real, you can just keep adding more violence
Speaker 1: and more bloodshed, right, and this is great, and then
Speaker 1: when you watch it with an audience and it was
Speaker 1: just horrible. And I think for us it was a
Speaker 1: bit like that, like we just it was so funny
Speaker 1: to us and just keep turning the screw and making
Speaker 1: this world uncomfortable that we didn't occur to us that
Speaker 1: people would find it cringeworthy until they started telling you to.
Speaker 1: And then of course we just doubled down and then
Speaker 1: we're like, oh, well, now, well now we're going to
Speaker 1: really lay it off. Well, right, like there is I
Speaker 1: mean just calling a spade a spade, right Like, there
Speaker 1: is a difference between trying to tell a joke that
Speaker 1: bombs or the Simpsons speech and you know, like a joke.
Speaker 1: I can't remember the character, but I just heard this recently.
Speaker 1: It was pulled up. But like a character telling David
Speaker 1: Brent she's going on holiday and he says, exploring yourself,
Speaker 1: like that is more just that is well, I guess
Speaker 1: I guess that. I think it was just it was
Speaker 1: just stay true to the character and this kind of
Speaker 1: this neediness and this attempt to be liked in this
Speaker 1: attempt to make connections, but also like slightly lastivious or
Speaker 1: I mean the big problem for him, for the Dif
Speaker 1: Brent character to some degree, Michal Scotts, they just didn't
Speaker 1: know when to shut up, right or they just didn't
Speaker 1: know what to say. And they were all but they
Speaker 1: always had to be talking. You know, sometimes silence is golden,
Speaker 1: but not for them. They just have to speak. And
Speaker 1: they think they are great joke tellers. They think they're
Speaker 1: great in conversation. They think they have great personalities. They
Speaker 1: want to show off for the cameras that are filming them,
Speaker 1: and so they never shut up. And it's one of
Speaker 1: the great disparities between people who are like that. They
Speaker 1: just don't realize how they're coming across to the world. Right. So, again,
Speaker 1: to go back to Trump, Trump thinks he's killing it.
Speaker 1: Every time he opens his mouth, he thinks he's crushing it.
Speaker 1: He never goes back thinks, oh, man, I some of
Speaker 1: what I said there was really garbled and doubloky, and
Speaker 1: that didn't make much sense. He's not thinking that, he's thinking,
Speaker 1: why didn't they love that? That was a great speech?
Speaker 1: What's wrong with it? That's the weird gap between those people.
Speaker 1: They said they can't see themselves as the rest of
Speaker 1: the world season. So to me, it makes perfect sense
Speaker 1: that those people would would say those things. And yes,
Speaker 1: it is uncomfortable, I guess because those people are on
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. Maybe it's that in real
Speaker 1: life we just sort of tolerate them, or we walk
Speaker 1: away or we ignore them, and in the TV world,
Speaker 1: we just forced you to sit and watch this person, right, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, it goes to the idea that they just
Speaker 1: that both characters are truly just misguided in their approach,
Speaker 1: and certainly, you know, Michael Scott is played by Steve
Speaker 1: korrell Is. It was one of my favorite jo I've
Speaker 1: told people, one of my favorite jokes that we ever
Speaker 1: did on the Office was Michael Scott really trying to
Speaker 1: have a bonding moment with Oscar and really wanting to understand,
Speaker 1: you know, his way of life, and and asking him
Speaker 1: what term would be less offensive than Mexican than calling
Speaker 1: him Mexican, and Oscar saying there's nothing offensive about Mexican.
Speaker 1: He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, sure, but like, what's
Speaker 1: something less offensive than to call you Mexican? And to me,
Speaker 1: that is like like he truly just doesn't understand. He's
Speaker 1: not trying to be he's trying to be woke right
Speaker 1: or PC, and he just doesn't get it. But that
Speaker 1: moment of cringe is like, but I think, you know,
Speaker 1: in some ways predated this conversation that everyone has now
Speaker 1: about sort of foke culture and appropriational those other things.
Speaker 1: And at the time, certainly when we began Average and
Speaker 1: it was the beginning of sort of political correctness in
Speaker 1: the workplace and political critics being a very big buzzword,
Speaker 1: and people there are certain terms that supposedly you weren't
Speaker 1: like to use anymore, and the you know, in schools,
Speaker 1: you couldn't refer to the board, you have to refer
Speaker 1: to the chalkboard, and you know, and then the only
Speaker 1: system rules that manhole cover had couldn't be called they
Speaker 1: had to be called maintenance cover. And there was a
Speaker 1: lot of sort of reaction to that and people saying, well,
Speaker 1: you're you're policing us, and you're policing the way we speak.
Speaker 1: And so there were a lot of people trying to
Speaker 1: be woke before they that term was existing and just
Speaker 1: not understanding and failing. And the reason they failed was
Speaker 1: because you shouldn't have to try. You should just hold
Speaker 1: someone like a person, and you shouldn't see their color
Speaker 1: or their sexuality or anything else. And that was the problem.
Speaker 1: That was why they were hung up, is they couldn't
Speaker 1: they couldn't see them as anything other than a gay person,
Speaker 1: a Mexican person, you know, personal color, whatever. They couldn't
Speaker 1: see beyond that that was and so they their heart
Speaker 1: may have been in the right place, but they were
Speaker 1: they were still treating people as other right and as
Speaker 1: long as you do that you do. Yes, I heard
Speaker 1: something recently that I did not know that before. Greg
Speaker 1: decided to oversee and come back for the last season,
Speaker 1: and he asked you to show run. Is that true?
Speaker 1: I remember, Yes, I remember him talking to me about
Speaker 1: the idea of being involved with those latest seasons or
Speaker 1: that last season. Yes, and I and I was very flattered,
Speaker 1: And that would have it would have been enormous fun.
Speaker 1: I think for me it was probably like it would
Speaker 1: have been going back to the well of something you know,
Speaker 1: perhaps you know too late, or I moved on in
Speaker 1: my head, or for whatever reason. I think I just
Speaker 1: felt like it would it would just be weird, or
Speaker 1: I just wouldn't I didn't feel like it would be
Speaker 1: the right move for me. But my god, it would
Speaker 1: have been a blast. Yeah. I mean directing that episode
Speaker 1: of Customer Survey was one of the most fun I've
Speaker 1: had in in all of my career. I mean I
Speaker 1: was only really around for a handful of weeks, but
Speaker 1: just being in the writer's room for the first couple
Speaker 1: of weeks and then on the splore with you guys,
Speaker 1: I mean it was just so much fun. I mean
Speaker 1: it really was. But in a weird way. I didn't
Speaker 1: have the kind of responsibility that you'd have if you
Speaker 1: were show running. You know, I could kind of dip
Speaker 1: in and and just part of the fun without as
Speaker 1: much of the responsibility. How is the writer's room different
Speaker 1: than like, say, the writer's room in the UK, or
Speaker 1: or how was that experience different? Well, of course, in
Speaker 1: the UK traditionally, you know, British comedies are normally written
Speaker 1: by one or two people. There's very rarely a big
Speaker 1: writer's room. We don't do as many episodes, so there
Speaker 1: isn't the need. So the British version of the office
Speaker 1: was just me and Ricky sitting in a room for
Speaker 1: six months, you know, hammering out the episodes, whereas you know,
Speaker 1: coming to the US it was Graham and you've got
Speaker 1: twelve or fifteen brilliant minds all throwing ideas around, these jokes,
Speaker 1: sort of pinging around. And I mean, to me, as
Speaker 1: a sort of fan of comedy and student of comedy,
Speaker 1: particularly American comedy, just being in that environment and seeing
Speaker 1: a different way of working and it was such a
Speaker 1: thrill to me. In fact, I remember I was sharing
Speaker 1: some stories from my own experience when I first started
Speaker 1: working and I had thought about how I worked at
Speaker 1: a call center and I've done training, and the guy
Speaker 1: who was doing the training assigned us. He would send
Speaker 1: us into one room and we'd have to make pretend
Speaker 1: be a customer, and we would call one of the
Speaker 1: other trainees he was another room, and they would be
Speaker 1: the person at the call center, and we, as the
Speaker 1: fake customers, would have to try and sort of practice
Speaker 1: with them on how they could answer a call. And
Speaker 1: I remember that the guy wouldn't let me do it
Speaker 1: anymore because I was I was too nasty a customer,
Speaker 1: because I really just I just kept on improvising as
Speaker 1: just the worst person to have because I figured, if
Speaker 1: I'm going to do customer training, I better deal with
Speaker 1: the assholes. I'm gonna need that information. And so I
Speaker 1: remembered selling that in the writer's room, and Lee and Jeans,
Speaker 1: who the writers, went off and wrote a version of
Speaker 1: that and gave it to Jim and to Dwight and Michael,
Speaker 1: and they put that in the show, and so that
Speaker 1: was that. I remember that being a real highlight of
Speaker 1: sort of this weird old fragment of my life suddenly
Speaker 1: being transposed onto ev. Did you like the way that
Speaker 1: the American Office ended that the story ended, I thought,
Speaker 1: I thought it was wonderful. I thought it was lovely. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought it was really satisfying. And you know, no
Speaker 1: one was machine gunned down. There was something and I think,
Speaker 1: I think so stressing. I also thought that, you know,
Speaker 1: when when Michael Scott left, I thought that was a
Speaker 1: beautiful episode as well. I thought there was some really
Speaker 1: fine episodes, you know, when when characters were leaving or
Speaker 1: when the show was really playing on the emotions. And
Speaker 1: I think again, that's one of the things I loved
Speaker 1: about American shows was that at their best, they're like
Speaker 1: soap operas with laughs. And I don't mean soap opera disparagingly.
Speaker 1: I mean in the sense that you are so invested
Speaker 1: in these characters in this world, and you keep coming back,
Speaker 1: and you care about them and you love them, and
Speaker 1: you want the best for them, and you have opinions
Speaker 1: about them, and and that was what you know, those
Speaker 1: nine seasons did so sweetly and so successfully, I think.
Speaker 1: And so by the time the show leaves the air,
Speaker 1: it's like these friends of yours have all moved away.
Speaker 1: I mean it's sort of it's sad. What are you
Speaker 1: most proud of in terms of its legacy. Honestly, you
Speaker 1: can't begin to understand. When I was growing up America
Speaker 1: and American TV was so remote to me, so distant,
Speaker 1: it was something I I adored. I mean, I watched
Speaker 1: shows that I loved, American shows I love religiously and
Speaker 1: pickly sitcoms like the ones I've mentioned, Mash and Roseanne
Speaker 1: and Frazier and Cheers and Friends. I mean I never
Speaker 1: missed an episode, you know. I was there when the
Speaker 1: new ones started airing in the UK. I remember watching
Speaker 1: the first episode of Friends that the evening it aired
Speaker 1: in the UK. I was with it from the beginning.
Speaker 1: I watched every episode I was in, you know. And
Speaker 1: so to me to have been involved with the show,
Speaker 1: which which is that for American audiences and for worldwide
Speaker 1: audiences and is and it's taken to their heart in
Speaker 1: the same way that I took shows like that to mine.
Speaker 1: That's the biggest thrill for me. It's to be part
Speaker 1: of that family of American TV comedy, you know, and
Speaker 1: put in the lineage of those other shows is such
Speaker 1: an overwhelming thrill for me. That's awesome. One last question,
Speaker 1: very final thing that's said In the American version of
Speaker 1: the Office is the talking Head by Pam To paraphray,
Speaker 1: she basically says that she thought it was weird when
Speaker 1: somebody came and wanted to do a documentary on these
Speaker 1: people who worked in a paper company. But she says,
Speaker 1: in the end, I think it was a good idea
Speaker 1: because there's beauty in ordinary things, and isn't that kind
Speaker 1: of the point. And I think that, you know, Greg
Speaker 1: Daniels wrote that and to him that was the point.
Speaker 1: Do you have an idea of what was the point? Well?
Speaker 1: I think you know, like with any good any good arts,
Speaker 1: if you can call TV sitcoms art, any good comedy,
Speaker 1: and any kind of art, it's about making us feel
Speaker 1: connected as people and and reminding us of the things
Speaker 1: which connects us and the and the similarities we have.
Speaker 1: And that's that's the great joy. That's the pleasure it
Speaker 1: brings that the connectivity that it provides, and that's why
Speaker 1: people love to laugh in a group in a comedy
Speaker 1: club or in a movie there because they want the
Speaker 1: shared experience of laughter is unifying. So to me, that's
Speaker 1: what the show does is people they relate to the characters,
Speaker 1: or they see a version of themselves or a version
Speaker 1: of the person they could have been, or they say,
Speaker 1: that's just like my brother in law, that's just like
Speaker 1: the guy I work with. That stuff makes you feel
Speaker 1: like there's other people that think like you, you know,
Speaker 1: and they're living in the world and experiencing the world
Speaker 1: like you, And it makes you feel less alone. And
Speaker 1: that's that's why I'm a fan of stuff, and I
Speaker 1: think hopefully that's why people are a fan of this show. Steven,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking the time to talk
Speaker 1: to me for real. I really appreciate it. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: hope you stay safe over there and stay home and
Speaker 1: I don't know, sometimes soon we'll go to another Clippers game. Great.
Speaker 1: H that's all for this week, everybody. I hope you
Speaker 1: enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. I mean,
Speaker 1: is it just me or do British people sound way
Speaker 1: smarter than other people? I feel smarter after hearing that conversation. Anyhow,
Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Stephen for joining me. I
Speaker 1: truly appreciate it, And to the rest of you. Tune
Speaker 1: in next week to hear my conversation with the other
Speaker 1: half of this dynamic duo, This comedic genius duo Ricky Gervais.
Speaker 1: You won't want to miss that. And if you're liking
Speaker 1: this podcast, well don't forget to subscribe or follow in
Speaker 1: whatever podcast app you were using. I don't know, maybe
Speaker 1: even leave us a review, rate us highlight if you're
Speaker 1: feeling inspired. But until next time, everybody, please have a
Speaker 1: great week. The Office. Deep Dive is hosted and executive
Speaker 1: produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Langley.
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our producer is Emily Carr,
Speaker 1: and our assistant editor is die Go Tapia. My main
Speaker 1: man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song
Speaker 1: Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton,
Speaker 1: and the episode was mixed by seth Olanski. Hello, this
Speaker 1: is Christina Hutchinson and Karin Fisher. We're thrilled to announce
Speaker 1: that our show, guys, We the Anti flut Schaming Podcast,
Speaker 1: is returning to wide release. That's right, every Friday we
Speaker 1: talked to one of our favorite comedians or an expert
Speaker 1: in the field of sexuality, love and relationships to hear
Speaker 1: what all the fos are about. Subscribe now and listen
Speaker 1: to the Luminary original podcast. Guys, We've starting January one
Speaker 1: on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever
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