1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: Podcast playground Taking a Walk with Buzz Night. Well, Hi, 2 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: this is Buzznight and I'm the host of the Taking 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: a Walk podcast series. Welcome to our special Greenwich Village series. Now, 4 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: when we think of the term musical range, I think 5 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: you really do have to think of Greenwich Village in 6 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: the sense that in the sixties the village was such 7 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: a hotbed of styles and personalities. There was a core backbone, 8 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: certainly around singer songwriting and folks singing, but it was 9 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: really this incredible range. There were poets and it was 10 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: just this a live feeling that was going on. You 11 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: still feel it to this day, but definitely different in 12 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: the sixties. So it's rather fitting that our guest on 13 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: Taking a Walk is no stranger himself to musical range. 14 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: Richard Baron is our guest that as a recording artist 15 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: with the band The Bomb Goes, he has demonstrated that. 16 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: Also as a producer, he's demonstrated his range. As a professor, 17 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: he has demonstrated his range, and as an author he 18 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:17,279 Speaker 1: also demonstrates his musical range and his passion for music. 19 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:22,960 Speaker 1: He spans decades navigating the musical nuances of the village. 20 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: With his great new book music and revolution, and it's 21 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: about Frentwage Village in the sixties. And by the end 22 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: you will be transported in time. You will feel like, 23 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: through a meditation, that you were part of it. So, Richard, 24 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: it's so awesome to meet you, and thank you for 25 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: taking a walk. Thank you. I love taking a walk. 26 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: It's great to meet you. And what made you write 27 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: the book. It was a long process and like you said, 28 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: it was a meditation and it was a growing obsession 29 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: for me living in the village, wanting to know what 30 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: made it the village, what made it such a hotbed 31 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: of creative styles. And you know, it's a big story. 32 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: It's a big story, almost too big for one. It's 33 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: rarely put in one place, and you put it that 34 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: way because it really starts with this community that grew 35 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: over a long period of time that was not part 36 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: of New York City yet that was a little apart 37 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: from what Manhattan was much lower Manhattan. This was sort 38 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 1: of this was a tobacco field or whatever. It was 39 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: always a unique landscape. And with the Native American, the 40 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,519 Speaker 1: Lenape tribe that was here, the pads that were built 41 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: are really the streets of the village still. So if 42 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: you look on any map of New York, you'll see 43 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: a grid. You'll see a grid for most of Manhattan 44 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: except for Greenwich Village and a few areas to below 45 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: Greenwich Village in which the streets are winding because they're 46 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: paths based on Dutch traders paths and Native American paths. 47 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: And when the grid was built, the residence of Greenwich 48 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: Village refused to be on the grid. And that's symbolic, 49 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: I mean, just simply one element of what makes Greenwich Village. 50 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: It's just always unique. It's not on the grid. I 51 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: mean that's simpol just that is such a metaphor. It 52 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: sure is. And can you talk about the Save the Village? 53 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: Oh well, sure those you know there was actually there 54 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: was more than one. There's one that we see signs 55 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: of the photos if you look online Save the Village. 56 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: There was always a chance to get rid of the village. 57 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: There is now. I was talking to my students yesterday 58 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: at the New School and they were talking about how 59 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: some of them were complaining that this is not in classroom, 60 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: this was just in a lobby area where I was 61 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: visiting it and saying hello. They were talking about how 62 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: musicians are being arrested now for playing music in Washington 63 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: Square Park. This is something that was resolved really in 64 00:03:57,640 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one with what they call the Beatnik riots 65 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: that I cover in the book, in which musicians stood 66 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: up to authorities and said we do have every right 67 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: to play music here. So it's but yet still in 68 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, some musicians for playing guitar or bungo 69 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: drum in the park are being arrested. So there's always 70 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:21,679 Speaker 1: this kind of trying to it's futile because the village 71 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: is always hello, thank you. The village is always going 72 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: to be the village no matter what. No matter what 73 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: authorities says you can't play music here, or you can't 74 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: do this, or you can't have this kind of nightclub 75 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: or whatever, it's going to be defied by the villagers, 76 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: by the people that live here and people that come here. Now, 77 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: if we were here on a Sunday in the summer 78 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: in the sixties and the fifties, in the fifties, or 79 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: Sundays in the Square, as you describe, what would we 80 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: be seeing and feeling and sensing a fantastic gathering of 81 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: musicians of not every style but of many. Put it 82 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: that way, flamenco guitarists in one corner, bluegrass banjo players 83 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: in another corner, Folks singing, folk traditionalists in the center 84 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: might be by the fountain, trading folk songs. You know, 85 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 1: you mentioned we were talking earlier, you mentioned the singer 86 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: songwriter movement with that evolved because at first it was 87 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: not about writing your own songs. It was retaining and 88 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: like almost like musicology in a way of studying and 89 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: interpreting very old songs. So you'd be at Washington Square 90 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: Park and you'd hear some really old folk songs, you know, 91 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: people trading them say have you heard this? And have 92 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 1: you heard that? And then and then the thing that 93 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: happened that was magical is that these styles merged so 94 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: that the folk singers would hear the bluegrass banjo in 95 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: the next corner, or hear the flamenco guitar or hear 96 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: the blues guitar players, and the styles started emerging. Because 97 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: they're in a park, in the same park. It's not 98 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: that big of a park, and yet every sort of 99 00:05:57,640 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: every faction of music had a pocket in it, you know. 100 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: But the music started to merge because they would notice, wow, 101 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 1: that's pretty cool. That's pretty nice, and they would, so 102 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: you've got a lot of mixing of styles. It could 103 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: only happen here, it seems, well, it seems like it 104 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: could only happen here. New York especially had such an 105 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: influx of different types of people and immigrants and everything 106 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: that the park was a meeting place for all those 107 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: different things, you know, So that's why the music came 108 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: together in that way. Yeah, there's a great picture in 109 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: the book of which really lays it out to me. 110 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: And I'm sure there's other, you know, examples of it 111 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: where there's this picture of Patty Smith. Oh yeah, I 112 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: love it, Eric Anderson love it. I mean, you know, 113 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 1: two people coming at the world definitely from a different yes, 114 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: a different space. Wasn't Patty doing poultreat that she was 115 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: doing poetry, but you know, slowly putting music into her 116 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: posty and that was that was really there was a 117 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: precedent for that in the late fifties when the beat 118 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,559 Speaker 1: poets were performing here in the village on that street, 119 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: at the gas Life for instance, and other places. That 120 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: was really a poetry club. It was the Gaslight Poetry 121 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: Club and they have musical interludes. So a poet would 122 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: read or recite, and then they'd take a fifteen minute 123 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: break and there would be a musician. So that kind 124 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: of that came together there too, the idea of the 125 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: music and poetry, and of course Jack Harrouac and other 126 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: beat writers befriended David Amram. Do you know who David Amram? 127 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: So David Amram who's performing with me? It does often. 128 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: I love him, and he's ninety in his nineties. He's 129 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: just he's to me, he's a teenager, but he's a 130 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: ninety one year old teenager. He played with Jack, he 131 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: composed music for Jack Carouac's writings, and they did a 132 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: very famous beatnik movie called poem My Daisy. That's quite fascinating. 133 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: I saw it when I was in film school, and 134 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: it was just a thrill to later meet David Amram. 135 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: Like many of the artists that I have met in 136 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: my life and career, I studied them. First. Jonas Mekus, 137 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: who I write about in the book with the avant 138 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: garde film movement of the sixties. I had already studied 139 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: his work and then ended up being his being mentored 140 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: by him and Pete Seeger, who I adored on television 141 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: as a child and seeing him, you know, perform his 142 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: songs that really moved me. I got to produce his 143 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: last record, his last single, Wow Love. So I've been 144 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: blessed with that and I was able to use some 145 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 1: of this these friendships in the book in different ways. 146 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: Their voices come through me throughout the story. Well, yeah, 147 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 1: I love it how Donovan's voice comes from Donovan's voice 148 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: in Tiny Tim. Yeah, don't forget Tiny Tim. And he 149 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: was he was a great early mentor when I was 150 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:56,839 Speaker 1: a teenager now. And also happy Tramp, Happy Traum is great. 151 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: Happy Trump, you know, has the last scene in the 152 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: book book too. Yeah, I think I too. Well, you know, 153 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: it was my I love that part of the book. 154 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: I didn't know how to end the story because it 155 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: is a story. When people read music and a Revolution, 156 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: they're going to find it as almost like a novel, 157 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 1: I think, in some ways, except that it happens to 158 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 1: be all true. Right, it's a non fiction novel, and 159 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: I didn't know how it ended. To me, it doesn't end, 160 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: because the village continues. I'm here, we're here now. But 161 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: the ending hat to me from my students. We were 162 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: studying the Beatnik Riot, in which the musicians had an 163 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,079 Speaker 1: uprising to It was not really a riot, by the way, 164 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,599 Speaker 1: It was just a protest to allow music to be 165 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: played in Washington Square Park. But my students, one student 166 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: raised her hand and said, you know, you know, professor, 167 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: can we go there? And I'm going to go For 168 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:48,959 Speaker 1: a moment there was like go where go to the park? 169 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: And I said okay, and she said, and play music 170 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: on a Sunday, And I thought, yes, let's do it. 171 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: So Happy Trump happened to be our guest that day 172 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: in the classroom. It's on zoom because of the pandemic. 173 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: He was on zoom, but he was in our classroom 174 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: and so I said, Happy, we so like to join 175 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 1: us there so that so he did. So we we 176 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: got together on a Sunday in the park and it 177 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: was just a beautiful, well meeting of generations. Also, my 178 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: young students, they're like, they're roughly twenty years old and 179 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: happy there. You know. As you know, he was here 180 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 1: in sixty one. He was at this. He was nearly 181 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: arrested at the riots. He was roughed up by cops. 182 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: It's in a film called Sundays people can find on YouTube. 183 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: The film is called Sunday by Dan Dresen. I believe 184 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: it's the correct pronunciation and was listening. We even had 185 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: Dan Drayson on the on FaceTime on the phone while 186 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: this is while we re met on that Sunday in 187 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. Oh wow. So and Happy Traum was 188 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: there and I handed him my guitar and it just 189 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 1: felt such like a it would have had it could 190 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 1: have happened fifty years ago or whatever whatever the time 191 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 1: frame is. It was timeless, a timeless moment. And that 192 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: andy came to me from my students because as we 193 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: met in the park, it just seemed to wrap up 194 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: my story. Yeah, it did beautiful than I love the 195 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 1: lunch that you described with Barry Cornfeld. That was here 196 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 1: right where we're right we are right now, right where 197 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 1: sitting talk well Barry Cornfeld. You know, people kept mentioning 198 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,959 Speaker 1: to me, oh, I should interview him. I did eighty 199 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: interviews for the book, but not eighty different people. Some 200 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 1: of them were multiple interviews. As the book progressed over 201 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: a period of a year, I would call them at 202 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: all hours of the day and night to say, wait 203 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: a minute, what is that, or wait a minute, what 204 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: did you say about this? Help me understand this because 205 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: some scenes were hard for me to really get my 206 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: head around. Some competitions between artists, some romance cities. It's like, 207 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 1: but wait, I mean, how does this? How did this work? 208 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: Or Terry Dahl as an interviewee who managed Bob Dylan 209 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 1: and others, was a wealth of information. But she recommended 210 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: I speak to Barry Cornfeld. Now I knew his name 211 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: from records because on Simon and Garfunkal records, I think 212 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 1: Bob Dylan on some recordings with Bob Dylan, I believe, 213 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: but other records I always saw Barry Cornfell's name, so 214 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: I thought I should meet him, and I really had 215 00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: a fantastic talk with him the way that we're talking now. 216 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: But he opened up about just how how I got 217 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: a great sense of how it felt to be there, 218 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: and also to be not a celebrity, but to be 219 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,959 Speaker 1: the accompanist two celebrities. He really the story comes through 220 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: him in a beautiful way. It was Donovan who told 221 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: me speak to the ones who no one knows, who 222 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: know the names that are not known, because that's where 223 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 1: the story is. That's where your story is. That's what 224 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 1: Donovan telling me. I love that well, so let's talk. 225 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: There's so many names that, Yeah, what I think is 226 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: so beautiful about the book. There's names that people may know, 227 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 1: and then there's names that may not. There's some obviously 228 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,839 Speaker 1: that are alive, there's many many have passed. So maybe 229 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: we can touch on a few of these. These names 230 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: absolutely resonate in my heart. Richard and Mimi Forna, well, 231 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:03,839 Speaker 1: it's one of them that story has an elements of 232 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: scandal because Richard was married to Carolyn Hester and at 233 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: the time. Now that's another name who some people may 234 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: not know, but she was I think a superstar of 235 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,679 Speaker 1: folk music. She was on the cover of magazines Saturday 236 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: Evening post rather ravishing, a beautiful, beautiful and known as 237 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: the Texas songbird. She was had a ravishing voice as 238 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: well as her physical appearance. She was beautiful and she 239 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: had a great look with you know, folks who were 240 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: wearing high heels. She was a very sexy gal still 241 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: is beautiful, a fabulous singer personality and you know, an 242 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: archetype of the female singer songwriter of the early sixties. 243 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: I think who created a template that was then copied 244 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 1: by others. I don't want to say Joan Bias imitated her, 245 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: but Joan Biaz does sometimes really sound like her, and 246 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: she did come after I can say that. And I 247 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: didn't interview Joan for this book. For some characters, especially 248 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: once you did not live in Dunage Village, I went 249 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 1: to other sources, for instance, footage of other of interviews 250 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: they did, especially if it was contemporaneous to the book 251 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: where sixties interviews, but even if it was more recent. 252 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: For jo and I got some wonderful footage from BBC 253 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: Television and they had done a special on her and 254 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: when she really opened up and certain things were so personal, 255 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: I don't think I could have asked, but she did 256 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: talk about them in that program, So that is in 257 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: the book. I was able to use some wonderful sources 258 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: besides my own interviews, and I interviewed almost every day, 259 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: so was I did a lot of talking during the 260 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: writing of this book, and a lot more listening. But yes, 261 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: you were asking about we talked about Barry Cornfeld, but 262 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: you were asking about I'm sorry because you oh Richard 263 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: and me me of course. So Carolyn has to was 264 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: married to Richard, and he blew into town a while 265 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: kind of a wild man, a wild gy, you know, 266 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: and he was. She met him at an Irish pub, 267 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: hi Irish legendary tavern called the white Horse Tavern. Now 268 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: that was a hangout. Dylan would be there and soaking 269 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: in a lot of the Irish folk songs that then 270 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: became his familiar songs, to be honest. And Richard Farina 271 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: was there, the Clancy brothers who were very very important 272 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: figures in this green in the early Greenish Village scene 273 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: in the sixties. Clancy brothers were an Irish bunch of 274 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: brothers who were actually actors. They were actors and they 275 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: had set up camp at the Cherry Lane Theater in 276 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: the village, which is still there, in a great theater, 277 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: and they were trying to bring Irish plays. But they 278 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: also loved music. They were musicians as well, and they 279 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: started doing shows at night to raise money for to 280 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: fund their theater, to fund their theatore rental and fun 281 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: putting on plays and so that they were important. And 282 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: they were often at the white Horse Tavern. It was 283 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: an Irish pub, and Richard was hanging out there, met 284 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: Carolyn Hester, swept her off her feet, off her high heels, 285 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: and they had a whirlwind romance and a marriage. They 286 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: got married, but you know, it was troubled, and the 287 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: book lays it out. I did a lot of interviews 288 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: with Carolyn. I adore her and her stories were just 289 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: so colorful and fantastic. But she had a whirlwind romance 290 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: in marriage. But you know, he had his ways. He 291 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: was very he wanted to be part of the act. 292 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 1: Now Carolyn was already established. It's quite a fantastic solo 293 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: folks singer, yes, but he kind of found his way 294 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: on stage with there, and I think it was there 295 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: was some awkward There was something awkward about it. Also, 296 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: he wasn't really a folk singer. She didn't consider him 297 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: a full teer. She's from the tradition where you really 298 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: learn the songs you play. Who nannies if the listeners 299 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: don't know who nannies are like the equivalent of a 300 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: jazz jam session, but for folk music and people just 301 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: pick up an instrument and play and everybody trade songs. Well, 302 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: you know, he did all that, but he didn't pay 303 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: his dues, let's put it that way. So it wasn't 304 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 1: appropriate for her in her mind, and maybe in my mind, 305 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: that he would join her on stage so much and 306 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: become her manager and agent. It was just too much. 307 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: It became troubled. But then she was rolling with that. 308 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 1: But it was then some somehow. Then in friends on 309 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 1: a trip he met Mimi Farina, who I believe was sixteen. 310 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: Oh my god, i'm'm telling you. And that's the sister 311 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: of Joan Bias. So it's Memi Bias and you know, 312 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: she's adorable. In fact, other people I interviewed, and I'm 313 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: not sure if I put this in the book, because 314 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: there's you know, I couldn't write everything. I only have 315 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: three hundred pages to work with. So John Sebastian and 316 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 1: others told me that he let me just say he 317 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: would be speechless in me, Me Bias, his presence, because 318 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: of her beauty and charm. Speechless and John John Sebastian 319 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 1: is rarely speechless. Well, and you know, obviously Joan Baez 320 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:02,239 Speaker 1: rather fat. It was just commanding, commanding right, and her 321 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: sister in a different way also. So anyway, Richard fell 322 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: for me me, and you know, they had a whirlwind marriage. 323 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: They had a whirlwind marriage and ended in a tragedy 324 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: on Mimi's twenty first birthday. You know, it's it was 325 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 1: a whirlwind, but the but I do think, and this 326 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 1: is where I may be in disagreement maybe with Carolyn Hester, 327 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: even though I do love her. Is I think he 328 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 1: did some amazing music and I play it for my students. 329 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: He was able to We talked about the poetry. He 330 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 1: was very poetic in his lyrics. He was a writer 331 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: and had written a novel which Carolyn had to type 332 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 1: most of it up for him. Really, yes, wow, she 333 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: had She had a rough time I think with him. 334 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: But yes, he his his songs were interesting and I 335 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: mean he was I think, and I say in the 336 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: book that I think he was giving Bob Dylan a 337 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 1: run for his money during a certain period. I think 338 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah, I think it was a certain moment 339 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: of his timing maybe, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they 340 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: were they weren't you know, they weren't the Columbia Records. 341 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: Dylan was signed to Columbia, Yes, they had, he had 342 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: the cloud of Columbia Records. Richard and Mimi were on 343 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 1: like was it Vanguard or some other label which would 344 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: not have had the facilities to promote in the same way. 345 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: I'm just saying that as an aside. Sure, that's not 346 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: to say any quality and that's not about the quality 347 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 1: or anything, but I do think they made some wonderful 348 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: records and it's such a charm charming presence as to 349 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: do as the husband and wife, Richard and Mimi. I 350 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: couldn't help thinking about them. Maybe a little bit with 351 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: some of the characters, and the Cohen Brothers inside Lewin 352 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: Davis a little bit more t Yeah, and especially with them, 353 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,880 Speaker 1: I see them reflect that in the movie A Mighty Wind. 354 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 1: Definitely exactly. Actually on a earlier version of the Take 355 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: Out a Walk podcast, uh At Begley Junior, he was 356 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: part of it. Yeah, Yes, it's part of that whole true. Yeah, 357 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 1: a few of the names Ian Janis Ian what a story. 358 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: And I love her too. I've worked with her and 359 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 1: have sang I believe, I believe we've been sung together 360 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: at the bottom line here in the village Wow, because 361 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: we wrote songs for a woman named Marty Jones in 362 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: the eighties. We both wrote for her, and then we 363 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 1: had a concert in which we sang them. The songs 364 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: that we wrote were Marty John's together. It was really cool. 365 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: But Janice Is was because now she's an adult, so 366 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: we can't call her a prodigy, but she was a prodigy. 367 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: I think she was thirteen when she first performed in 368 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: British hillais Yeah, and I believe she was thirteen when 369 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 1: she started writing Society's Child. Oh no, kidd. But you know, 370 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: of course the thing was quite a story about how 371 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 1: the song then the difficulty it had been played on 372 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,479 Speaker 1: the radio because it was about interracial romance between teenagers, right, 373 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: and she you know, say fourteen ish fourteen. You know, 374 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: it came out when she was fifteen, but she had 375 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 1: already had the song we've written and had gotten a producer. 376 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,959 Speaker 1: They just couldn't land a record deal. And when they 377 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: finally did, then they had it was almost blacklisted. That 378 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: can be played until Leonard Burns Stein Bernstein, Bernstein, Bernstein, 379 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: Leonard Bernstein. Let's say that I like either They're both great. 380 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: It's a great name, and he's just his name is 381 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: so weighty. Yeah, right, but you know, to some to me, 382 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: i'd never actually met him. He I met his daughter 383 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 1: many times, Jamie. But uh. But Leonard had a television 384 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: special about pop music and presented Ian as a then 385 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: fourteen or fifteen year old on his show, and he 386 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 1: analyzed the song musically and lyrically and explained it to 387 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: the country. This was on a CBS or NBC television 388 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 1: special and so when he did that that then people 389 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: had to accept it because you know, they had to 390 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 1: sign sign of approval, the Seal of Approval of Leonard 391 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,360 Speaker 1: and it became it was to be then a hit 392 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 1: record for Jenna's at a young age, so she was 393 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: by fifteen. Then she was touring in large, you know, 394 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: good venues promoting it. So she took a lot of 395 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: backlaunch on the stage because of this subject matter. Interesting, yeah, 396 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: and it was just it was something and I write 397 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: about it in the book. It came out of a 398 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: personal experience at her own school that she witnessed and 399 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: that was the beginning certainly of FM radio, which allowed 400 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: for some of the handcuffs to be taken off, right, 401 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: So a lot of this music that a part of 402 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: the the reason the scene took off. Now, one thing 403 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: about the Grandness Philip scene that's very, very important that 404 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: we should not miss out on saying on the show 405 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: is that this was the not just singer songwriters. This 406 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: was the origin of the singer songwriter movement. I believe 407 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 1: here because it was a folk scene. You know, there's 408 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,880 Speaker 1: jazz in the neighborhood, and they were musicians, were always 409 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: listening to jazz. Some of these folksingers, they get off 410 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: stage and go right to a jazz club. And then 411 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: when they made records, the musicians that are backing them 412 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: are jazz musicians like Bill Lee who was a Spike. 413 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: Lee's father and other musicians who were jazz players were 414 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: the backing bands. But it was folk music. Carolyn Ester 415 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: had Bill Ley on her albums. He's a great bass player, 416 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 1: but jazz, you know what I mean. Yeah, well also too, 417 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: I mean you talk about this, I mean, you know, 418 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 1: the Chambers brothers breaking up in terms of what you know, 419 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: their music signified. It was really this explosion of different things, fantastic, 420 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 1: all coming together. So this, yeah, everything was really cranking 421 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: here in terms of this, you know influences, you know, 422 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 1: like you said earlier, Yeah, yeah, colliding Jose Feliciano, well 423 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: well he blew people away. Yeah, he was just blind kid. 424 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: Puerto Rican comes in and again different, we do all different, 425 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: you know, we don't think of it, but all these 426 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: people are different ethnic backgrounds. I mean, you know, Richie 427 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: Haven's on the scene. There are a few African Americans. 428 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: There's not so many, but there's like Native Americans with 429 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: several Patrick's Guy and of course Buffy, Saint Marie and 430 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: you know in the you just mentioned was Jose, you know, 431 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: let's you know, and he is blind and he is 432 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: we're gonna flying on the guitar people. John Sebastian always 433 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: has the quote he was like you, oh no, Actually 434 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 1: this quote might come from Dave van Ronk, where you 435 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 1: can't do that with a guitar. It's impossible, you know, 436 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 1: But of course he did. He was, he is still 437 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: a fantastic player, and he was a wonderful interview. I've 438 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: got to a lot of these artists I got to 439 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 1: meet when I produced a concert in Central Park in 440 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, also called Music and Revolution, and I had 441 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: John Sebastian, I had Jesse, Colin Young, I had oh 442 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: many nj Jose Feliciano and Melanie and a lot of 443 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: the artists that I write about or at least mentioned. 444 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: Melanie came a little bit later in the scene, so 445 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: she's not part of the story of Grande's Village that 446 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: I write, but she's there and she appears in the 447 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 1: later part. But they performed together on stage. Some of 448 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: these little tiny bits of interviews sometimes happened during the 449 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: concert because we would talk and I was on stage 450 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: announcing and I was playing with them playing baseball. Many 451 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 1: of the artists oh wow, And I would say, well, John, 452 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: what about this? And yeah, I don't like that, you know, 453 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: he would Some of these little mini quotes that are 454 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 1: in the book sometimes came from what happened on stage 455 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: with me with them. Yeah, Fred Neil, Fred Neil, Oh wow. 456 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 1: With Neil. Fred Neil was a very not just a talent. 457 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: He was also a great host of the Cafe Wall 458 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 1: afternoon shows, which was the first Bob Dylan performance in 459 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: this in the city, playing harmonica for Fred Neil. Because 460 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: he had these afternoon they became a little scene, afternoon scene. 461 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: It wasn't it was twenty four hour circus here. It 462 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: wasn't just nighttime. So by the afternoons, after breakfast, our lunch, 463 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: there was already the club scene happening at the Cafe 464 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: Wall and Fred Neil was the host. So he was 465 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: a fantastic songwriter, but also took his I believe took 466 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: that job as being the host of the afternoon shows 467 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: and the ringmaster as a serious He took seriously. So 468 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: he was bringing it. He brought an artist like Dylan 469 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,959 Speaker 1: or allowed them to be and Karen Dalton's and they 470 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 1: are now nearly forgotten but fantastic artists. There's a recent 471 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: documentary about Karen Dalton. She's like Billie Holliday or something. 472 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: She sings in this scorched earth kind of expressionistic vocal 473 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: style that's now modern. Wow. Interesting. Yeah, I mean think 474 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: Amy Winehouse or you know some other artists that have 475 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: this very stylized way of singing. Well, Karen Dalton was 476 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: doing that as well in the early sixties, and she 477 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: was Fred Neil brought her into the scene was she 478 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: would sing with him. You know. Fred Neil was a 479 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 1: great what's the word like a conduit as well as 480 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: being a fantastic songwriter, not just everybody's talkings. But the 481 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 1: unique thing about him, and I wrote about it in 482 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: the book, is that many of his songs are about 483 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 1: leaving New York, where other people were quite other people 484 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: on the scene were quite thrilled to be especially like 485 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: Van Ronk, who said, why would I go to New 486 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: or else? I'm already here right he Fred Neil is 487 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: always talking about, you know, going where the sun keeps 488 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: shining through the poring rain, and he was going he 489 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 1: wanted to go to Florida or something, you know what 490 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 1: I mean. And his songs are fantastic and they'd last 491 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: for they'll last forever. How great is it that David 492 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: Chase and his musical advisors for the Sopranos. Yeah, that 493 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,439 Speaker 1: scene that the dolphins. Yes, yeah, because he was so 494 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 1: interested in the dolphins and he gave all his money 495 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 1: to dolphin protection. Yeah. Yeah, I mean that's just so beautiful. Yeah. 496 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:35,360 Speaker 1: People get to you know, rediscover or discover an artist. Yeah, 497 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: for the first time. I love that. And one last 498 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: thing about bred Neil this interesting too, is that his 499 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: songs became known not by his own performances so much, 500 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: but by the cover versions. Also because even the Jefferson 501 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: Airplane did his song on the Other Side to This Life, 502 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 1: that's the that's the correct title. They might have they 503 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 1: might have messed it up. It the other Side to 504 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: This Life, which is about being a musician in the city. 505 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: It's very specific. It's about the it's not an easy life, 506 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: you know, it's not as glamorous. It made right and 507 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:02,959 Speaker 1: they took it and they made like a jam at 508 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: San Francisco style jam session out of it, but it 509 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,719 Speaker 1: actually was written by bred Neil. Yeah, well I love it. Yeah. 510 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: And then there's somebody else that I mentioned when we 511 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: spoke on the phone that I love how you told 512 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: the story of Phil Oakes. Oh yeah, what a brilliant performer, singer, songwriter, 513 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: obviously tremendously tortured in his own regard as well, but 514 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: a brilliant musician. And talk about him and in particular 515 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: his view of the world, which led to certainly you know, 516 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: protest songs that he wrote and led the way on. 517 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: And he also wrote many other types of songs, and 518 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: he was very poetic, but he was People know him 519 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: for his political songs because he was the most political 520 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: on the scene, the most outwardly political. Now why do 521 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: I say that, because other ones, Buffy Saint Marie was too. Well, 522 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: Hill was visibly on the front lines many of the 523 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: Vietnam protests and other Phil was always there in the 524 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: front lines visibly as a protester. And his songs he 525 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: wrote sometimes he wrote anthems that would just where there 526 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,719 Speaker 1: I think their time is now. Some people say, well, 527 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: that's just suited for the Vietnam War era, but they're 528 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: not like, I ain't marching anymore, doesn't mention Vietnam once. 529 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: It just says, I ain't marching anymore, I'm not going 530 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: to war. And he did, you know, he was in 531 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: the r OTC when he was in high school or 532 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: early the years of college. He got out of it, 533 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: but he did march right, and he became you know, 534 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: one he didn't he didn't believe in the war machinery 535 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: and the what is the word the industrial the military 536 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: industrial complex. I think that's the phrase. You know, he 537 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: really was against that. Now, his his all of that 538 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: was it was painful when his message didn't maybe he 539 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: felt it wasn't always coming through. And secondly, there's an 540 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: he folds to this drama. Secondly that he wasn't also 541 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: taken seriously as a poet, because I think he saw 542 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: himself as a writer, not just a protests but of poetry. 543 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: Like his song, for instance, Changes is really one of 544 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,239 Speaker 1: the most beautifully poetic songs of that era is And 545 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: you wrote that, I mean, I think, you know, sometimes 546 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: I performed that as a mashup with Blowing in the Wind. 547 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: I do it as a conversation between Bob Dylan and Phillips. Oh, 548 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: because in heaven of course, Phil and heaven Bill here, 549 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: I mean Bob here, you know, because why because they 550 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: were at odds with each other. Often, Phillips deeply admired 551 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: Bob Dylan and thought he was the best. He said 552 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: that because when Phillips arrived in New York, he said, 553 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: my first goal was to be the best songwriter in 554 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: the world. A couple of ferraris. But so Phillips arrived 555 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: in the vill wanting to be the best songwriter. I think, 556 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: he said, in the world. I don't think he's it 557 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: justin Greenwich Village or in New York. I think he's 558 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: in the world. And then he met Bob Dylan and said, okay, 559 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: I'll be the second best. So he was. He gave 560 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,959 Speaker 1: credit where credit was due, sure, but Bob gave him 561 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: a hard time. Bob Dylan, I shouldn't say first name 562 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: so that I don't know him. But Dylan gave him 563 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: a hard time and often said, you're not really a poet, 564 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: You're just a journalist. Now, It's true that Phillips was 565 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: a journalist student and a journalist who wrote for many magazines. 566 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: Did you know that he wrote for many magazines? He 567 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: wrote for a lot of these. I guess you call 568 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: him fanzines of the folk music scene. He wrote reviews 569 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: of the albums he was He was a journalist, he 570 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: was a writer. So Bob Dylan wasn't really wrong. I 571 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: had to I had to qualify that in the book. Wow, 572 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: is this the loudest corner ever? Yeah? Well, everything happens, 573 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: all hell breaks this I about the far end of 574 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: Waverley the last block said, it's much quieter. But I 575 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: do live on the street. But yeah, I think Phil 576 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: never believed. I didn't. I never felt he got the 577 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: was given the credit he deserved. And I think that's true. 578 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: I think that's accurate. I do so. In closing, Yeah, 579 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: I think about certainly somebody like Phil Oaks. Yeah, and 580 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: I think about the times that we live in today. Yes, 581 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: And are you surprised that at such a crazy time 582 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: that we're living in, that we're not seeing a bubbling 583 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: under of music. I'm not saying it would be identical 584 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: as the sixties, but in its own form in twenty 585 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: twenty two and beyond. Does this surprise you? It stuns me. 586 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: It stuns me that people aren't using their voice, that 587 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: musicians are not using their voices more to protest in 588 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: a poetic way or in any way more. When I 589 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: say this to my students, they say, yeah, but there's 590 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: this rapper who does I know, but I've never heard 591 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: it like you know. There's One of the differences is 592 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: that in the sixties there were only three television networks 593 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: and a certain limited number of radio stations in each town, 594 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: and everyone was hearing the same music, more so than 595 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: today because now everyone has their own private channels and 596 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: streaming services. There's so many or networks, there's so many 597 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: on cable that we're not all hearing the same messaging 598 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,239 Speaker 1: and the same songs, so that it's you really have 599 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: to go seek everything out. So it spread us. There 600 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: are artists doing music with messages, but we don't. We're 601 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: not all experiencing them together. We're not really experiencing any 602 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: music together anymore. I mean, think of it this way. 603 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: When the doors went on, and this is not a 604 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: Greenwich village group, but it's at the same era. It's 605 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: during the same time when the doors will go on 606 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: the Sullivan Show or something, so many people of different 607 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: ages and and locations would see that the same they 608 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: see them at the same or the Beatles that's really 609 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: in the book would see them at the same time, 610 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: so they would reach the message would reach so many people. Uh, 611 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: and now we don't have that. We don't have that. 612 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: We have we don't have that concentration of media. It's 613 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: so spread out that it's hard to get a message 614 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: through in the same way. I think that's part of it. 615 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 1: But again I don't see that many artists. I hear 616 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: a lot of music. My students play music from you 617 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 1: like friends, I hear. I hear new stuff daily, and 618 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: I haven't heard much. I've heard very few songs that 619 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: really address anything. Well, maybe things will come around. Well 620 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 1: that's my one of my dedications of the book, and 621 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 1: it's from to my mother and to my students. And 622 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: I say, you know, for my students made their music 623 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,439 Speaker 1: create a revolution of its own. I mean, I really 624 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: want this book. I I want this to be a 625 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: call to arms as well as a historical book. I 626 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,760 Speaker 1: wanted to be an inspiration that we can't that things 627 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: can change, and that you can make things happen. I mean, 628 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: this era that we're talking about in this book did 629 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: change history. Yeah, it opened up a lot of freedom 630 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 1: for young people. It changed the way songwriters to write 631 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 1: their own songs without record company inter interference as much, 632 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,439 Speaker 1: because before that you were given music to say, and 633 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: our people will go choose your songs and then you 634 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: just sing them. Yep. And this made it, This this 635 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: era in the village, change that dynamic forever. I think, Yep, 636 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: it's beautifully done. It's all about the passion for music, 637 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: which is what I love about it as well, and 638 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: I totally believe others will love it. Richard Baron, thank 639 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: you so much. Thank you, keep jamming, keep rocket We'll do. 640 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you so much for having me. Taking 641 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: a Walk with Buzznight is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, 642 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.