Speaker 1: Hey, guys, welcome to I've never said this before with
Speaker 1: me Tommy Diderio. Today's guest is the brilliant Matthew Lopez.
Speaker 1: He's a director, a screenwriter, and a Tony Award winning playwright.
Speaker 1: And on top of that, Tony add on maybe six
Speaker 1: or seven other noteworthy awards for his play The Inheritance,
Speaker 1: which I was lucky enough to see on Broadway, and
Speaker 1: I was so incredibly moved by, and being the theater
Speaker 1: geek that I am, I also saw another show he
Speaker 1: co wrote, which was the musical adaptation for Some Like
Speaker 1: It Hot, also fantastic. But today we are diving into
Speaker 1: Red White and Royal Blue, one of the most anticipated
Speaker 1: movies of the year that Matthew co wrote and directed. Now,
Speaker 1: this film is an adaptation of the best selling novel
Speaker 1: by Casey mcquisten, and I would say it's arguably one
Speaker 1: of the most popular books ever written. So here's the story.
Speaker 1: Alex is the son of the American President, and he
Speaker 1: is in a feud with Prince Henry of Britain and
Speaker 1: at one event that they both are attending, that few
Speaker 1: becomes pretty public when it comes to a head. So
Speaker 1: to prevent a wedge from being driven into the US
Speaker 1: and British relations, Alex and Prince Henry are forced to
Speaker 1: stage a truce that well it, you know, sparks something
Speaker 1: unexpected and deeper than anyone could have imagined. And I
Speaker 1: think you can guess some love ensues. Matthew brings this
Speaker 1: queer love story from the pages to the screen in
Speaker 1: the most beautiful way. And let's just say, while watching this, yeah,
Speaker 1: I shed quite a few tears. I know, I know,
Speaker 1: I am a sucker for love. What can I say?
Speaker 1: So let's see if today we can get Matthew to
Speaker 1: say something that he's never said before. Matthew, how are you,
Speaker 1: my friend?
Speaker 2: I'm doing really well.
Speaker 1: Thanks good. I'm so happy you're here. I know you've
Speaker 1: had a crazy few days. You've been on a whirlwind
Speaker 1: tour for this movie, which but we're going to get
Speaker 1: all into I have to tell you, Ah, what can
Speaker 1: I say that will truly convey what it felt like
Speaker 1: watching this movie in that theater on Monday night at
Speaker 1: the screening, I mean, my husband and I went crazy
Speaker 1: over it. We laughed, we cried, we cheered, all the
Speaker 1: things and more. You did such a brilliant job with
Speaker 1: this movie. Congratulations, Thank you, thank you. I know it's
Speaker 1: your first film. Why did you want to make Red, White,
Speaker 1: and Royal Blue?
Speaker 3: It was about February, February twenty twenty and my agent
Speaker 3: sent me the book, and I had just opened Inheritance
Speaker 3: on Broadway, and I was looking to do something new.
Speaker 3: I wanted to start looking for a film to make,
Speaker 3: and then this book came along, and I just knew
Speaker 3: about page fifty, I kind of knew that this was
Speaker 3: the thing I wanted to do, and it was. And
Speaker 3: then the rest of the book was essentially me already
Speaker 3: starting to figure out how I might be able to
Speaker 3: make a film work out of this book. And I
Speaker 3: found out that Greg Burlanti, who was one of the
Speaker 3: producers of The Inheritance, had acquired the Riots, and I
Speaker 3: lobbied him and Sarah Schechter, his business partner, and eventually,
Speaker 3: you know, they came to me and said, yeah, let's
Speaker 3: do this. And I then that became the last two
Speaker 3: and a half years of my life. I really really
Speaker 3: responded so so much to the optimism of the book.
Speaker 3: I really loved the fact that it was this queer
Speaker 3: romance with a happy ending and with really idiosyncratic vibrant characters.
Speaker 3: I love that there was a latinae bisexual, Southern boy
Speaker 3: in the lead.
Speaker 2: You know, there's so much I could relate to in
Speaker 2: this book.
Speaker 3: And you know, when you contemplate spending two years working
Speaker 3: on something.
Speaker 2: You had better really like it, and you better really
Speaker 2: be excited about it, or you better really be excit.
Speaker 3: I did about the paycheck, I guess, But for me,
Speaker 3: I really needed my first film to be something that
Speaker 3: I was passionate about, that I was going to sacrifice
Speaker 3: sleep for.
Speaker 2: And this was it for sure.
Speaker 1: So you said you were reading it and then fifty
Speaker 1: pages in you knew you had to make this a movie.
Speaker 1: What was that defining moment for you?
Speaker 3: I probably the fans of the book will tell me
Speaker 3: how wrong I am at this, So it's probably not
Speaker 3: at page fifty.
Speaker 2: But their first kiss.
Speaker 3: I think the way the gway Casey described the first
Speaker 3: kiss was so cinematic.
Speaker 2: I could see the movie. The movie was just unschooling.
Speaker 3: In my head as I was reading it, And I
Speaker 3: love that it was this you know, a kid, a
Speaker 3: New Year's even snowy white house grounds.
Speaker 2: I thought there was something.
Speaker 3: Just inherently cinematic about about so much of the book,
Speaker 3: and I really kind of fell for the swoony, romantic
Speaker 3: quality of Casey's writing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the two leads bring this story to life brilliantly.
Speaker 1: I know you spent five or six months auditioning hundreds
Speaker 1: of different actors. You found Taylor, you found Nicholas. Why
Speaker 1: were they the right guys to play these roles?
Speaker 2: It's funny, after having made the film with them, it's
Speaker 2: almost becomes really difficult to explain why they're the most
Speaker 2: the perfect guys in the roles because they are just
Speaker 2: simply now the roles. You forget what the casting process
Speaker 2: was like.
Speaker 3: And I've had to really go back and actually watched
Speaker 3: some of their auditions recently, and I remember watching Nick
Speaker 3: audition and working with Nick. He really convinced me that
Speaker 3: what Henry needed was a caretaker, and what Nick was
Speaker 3: able to do as the actor playing the role was
Speaker 3: less inhabit him than care for him.
Speaker 2: He really really protected Henry. He really felt very protective
Speaker 2: of Henry.
Speaker 3: I think as an actor saw his job as being
Speaker 3: someone who had to just sort of create a roll
Speaker 3: around Henry and keep bad things from happening to him.
Speaker 3: And there was such an enormous well of compassion for.
Speaker 2: Henry, and I knew that with Nick, I was leaving.
Speaker 3: This character in very good hands, and I could I
Speaker 3: could I didn't need to worry about Henry, and I
Speaker 3: could worry.
Speaker 2: I could focus on of the things.
Speaker 4: And with Taylor, Taylor has this ability to transform himself,
Speaker 4: both his body and his energy into something else.
Speaker 1: He's a real.
Speaker 2: Chameleon and he's a shape shifter.
Speaker 3: And when I started reading him for this role, I
Speaker 3: could see Alex just sort of springing to life. And
Speaker 3: and so there's it's funny. There's this very complimentary energy
Speaker 3: that they have as actors, at least on this film,
Speaker 3: that Nick was very sort of internal and Taylor was
Speaker 3: very external. There was some sort of inward energy coming
Speaker 3: toward Nick and there was some outward energy coming from Taylor,
Speaker 3: and so that independently of each other, they were already
Speaker 3: without having met, we're creating these very complimentary performances, just
Speaker 3: even in the auditions.
Speaker 2: And then I put them in on a zoom.
Speaker 3: Together to do a chemistry read and just sort of
Speaker 3: like praying and hoping that oh my God, you know, please,
Speaker 3: please please.
Speaker 5: Just if it's not true, give me enough that I
Speaker 5: can fake it, you know, and they didn't need I
Speaker 5: didn't need to fake anything and neither today.
Speaker 3: It was just there from the beginning. It was it
Speaker 3: was I mean, it's gonna sound stupid to say it,
Speaker 3: but it just sounded like fate. It just was so perfect.
Speaker 3: They were the characters, They became the characters more and
Speaker 3: more throughout the audition process, and then when we got
Speaker 3: into this chemistry read they just clicked instantly. So the
Speaker 3: one hand, it was incredibly thorough this process, both on
Speaker 3: my part and theirs, I would say, and then it
Speaker 3: just clicked and became incredibly easy and simple and straightforward.
Speaker 1: Wow wow, Yeah, their chemistry is incredible in the film.
Speaker 1: And I know you guys spent about two weeks rehearsing
Speaker 1: and prepping prior to shooting, which I know isn't always common,
Speaker 1: and I think that's really cool you took the time
Speaker 1: to do that. Was there anything that happened in those
Speaker 1: rehearsals that maybe influenced to change then, you know, from
Speaker 1: something you originally thought that it was going to be
Speaker 1: a certain way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I you know, on a film like this
Speaker 3: with these two leads, I knew that there was going
Speaker 3: to be a point in which I needed to be
Speaker 3: the boss or sometimes just sort of sort of have
Speaker 3: a firm hand on things. And I knew that these
Speaker 3: two weeks were really invaluable for us, both in terms
Speaker 3: for the two of them to really get to know
Speaker 3: each other and to really feel comfortable with one another,
Speaker 3: but then also for me to give them an opportunity
Speaker 3: to challenge anything that was in the script, anything that
Speaker 3: was part of the plan for the shooting of the film.
Speaker 3: I needed to give them a lot of agency, because
Speaker 3: I needed then to take it away from them once
Speaker 3: we started building it anyway, and this was an opportunity
Speaker 3: for us to sort of like it was almost like
Speaker 3: the whole thing was like an open source code. And
Speaker 3: for two weeks, the three of us really worked together
Speaker 3: to devise what this thing was going to be. We
Speaker 3: tried different avenues, we tried different ways of doing it.
Speaker 3: We blocked scenes, we ran scenes. There are a few
Speaker 3: scenes in the movie that are as filmed and as edited,
Speaker 3: are exactly how we rehearsed them in terms of the blocking,
Speaker 3: in terms of what this thing is about.
Speaker 2: This this lovely, tiny.
Speaker 3: Little moment in the scene where in Alex's bedroom, which
Speaker 3: is one of my favorite scenes in the movie for them,
Speaker 3: and it's in Alex's bedroom after they hook up for
Speaker 3: the first time.
Speaker 2: In the blocking in in the movie that you see
Speaker 2: is precisely what we did.
Speaker 3: It was the very last day of rehearsals and this
Speaker 3: little sort of moment where they talk over each other
Speaker 3: near the end of it and it's kind of suddenly
Speaker 3: gets awkward again. That just happened one day in rehearsal,
Speaker 3: and I remember clocking that and on set I actually was.
Speaker 3: I had a video of the rehearsal and they did it.
Speaker 3: I showed it to them before we shot the scene.
Speaker 3: I'm like, do you remember this from nine weeks ago?
Speaker 2: And so I come from theater.
Speaker 3: I you know, rehearsals are invaluable for creating, for inventing.
Speaker 3: There's some there's there are times, and especially on a
Speaker 3: film like this, where your ability to invent on set
Speaker 3: is very limited, And I needed to get their imaginations firing,
Speaker 3: and I needed that to allow my imagination to fire too.
Speaker 2: So I think it's what made that.
Speaker 3: Those two weeks are absolutely what made what is special
Speaker 3: on screen between them possible.
Speaker 1: And what I love about you is I could feel
Speaker 1: it through the screen. You have so much pride in
Speaker 1: the work that they did. Your beaming when you talk
Speaker 1: about it, which I think, I.
Speaker 3: Feel like a proud parent, I really do, because I mean,
Speaker 3: the thing is is that this movie is only as good.
Speaker 3: This movie would only ever been as good as my
Speaker 3: ability to get natural, easy performances out of them. And
Speaker 3: one of the things that I'm really really proud of
Speaker 3: in this film across the board is how relaxed everybody is.
Speaker 3: And it starts with Taylor and Nick. There is such
Speaker 3: an ease about them that really just permeates every scene
Speaker 3: of the film. And Yeah, I'm incredibly proud, I think,
Speaker 3: you know, one of the one of the great pleasures
Speaker 3: and challenges of this process was editing the film because
Speaker 3: it was a wealth of options, you know, and and
Speaker 3: there's a whole other version of this movie which I
Speaker 3: could assemble out of alternate takes, and and it would
Speaker 3: be it would be a different movie, you know.
Speaker 2: Absolutely very proud of those two.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a lot of people want to see
Speaker 1: those deleted scenes.
Speaker 3: Let's get the non deleted scenes out into the world first,
Speaker 3: and then we'll see what happens.
Speaker 1: Fair enough, fair enough. There was a moment in the
Speaker 1: film for me that that blew me away between between
Speaker 1: Nick and Taylor. For you, I'm sure this is such
Speaker 1: a tough question. There were many, But is there one
Speaker 1: moment that you're just so blown away by?
Speaker 2: There are so many.
Speaker 3: I did give the example of that scene in the bedroom,
Speaker 3: which is just for me in terms of their chemistry
Speaker 3: is so is so beautiful. I have to say that
Speaker 3: the confrontation scene in Henry's bedroom was I think it
Speaker 3: was something that we were all dreading at filming because
Speaker 3: we knew what it was going to cost all of us.
Speaker 3: And I knew that, I mean practically speaking the filmmaker,
Speaker 3: and as a filmmaker, I knew I had other things
Speaker 3: to do that day, so I also couldn't like indulge
Speaker 3: in too long a process on set for that scene.
Speaker 3: But I also knew I couldn't leave until I got
Speaker 3: what I needed. And we did it maybe two thirds
Speaker 3: of the way through the shoot, and it's longer than
Speaker 3: we expected it to and I actually there there's a
Speaker 3: couple of things that I didn't shoot that day because
Speaker 3: I just just cut them right out and we had
Speaker 3: to break for lunch and I was and we hadn't
Speaker 3: finished the scene and I was really really worried that
Speaker 3: we were going to come back from lunch and all
Speaker 3: I was just gonna have lost them, you know, and
Speaker 3: we would never recapture what was happening on set before lunch.
Speaker 2: And and it was the move, It.
Speaker 3: Was the pivotal part of the scene is the end
Speaker 3: when they're when the sort of when Alex Nix's ultimatum
Speaker 3: to Henry.
Speaker 6: And we got back on set and we got we.
Speaker 3: Started filming again, and instantly in the first take after lunch,
Speaker 3: Taylor started crying and Nick was facing away from him
Speaker 3: and he heard Taylor and Nick started crying, and and
Speaker 3: the back half of that scene is so beautiful because
Speaker 3: they're doing such great work. And I really had a
Speaker 3: difficult time cutting it because there was such beautiful, nuanced
Speaker 3: work from all from both of them. But what to
Speaker 3: me it was so remarkable about it is they had
Speaker 3: just had lunch, They just and they came right back
Speaker 3: into it and they were more dialed in and they
Speaker 3: were more in touch with each other than before, and
Speaker 3: it was truly it was.
Speaker 2: It was pretty remarkable. And I have to say that
Speaker 2: was the moment.
Speaker 3: I knew that whatever happened with this movie these those
Speaker 3: two actors would be fine in their career.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that was the scene I was thinking of
Speaker 1: as well. It was It was pretty remarkable. I can't
Speaker 1: wait for people to see that one. Was there a
Speaker 1: scene or two from the book that you thought, okay, man,
Speaker 1: I better get this just right.
Speaker 2: There was well, the case scene, of course, you know,
Speaker 2: I think that for many reasons. It's the opening of
Speaker 2: the film.
Speaker 3: It really establishes the characters so much. But it's also
Speaker 3: just the most iconic moment in the book, one of
Speaker 3: the most iconic moments of the book, And so there
Speaker 3: were a million reasons why I knew I needed to
Speaker 3: get it right. And it was also the most technical
Speaker 3: thing I had filmed up to that point. It was
Speaker 3: I think we shot it in our second week, and
Speaker 3: you know, the first few days of filming were pretty
Speaker 3: gentle on me and ever buddy, and then we had.
Speaker 2: This two day shoot inside the ballroom with this cake,
Speaker 2: with these extras, with all of these other scene elements
Speaker 2: that were happening, and then on day two we had
Speaker 2: to drop this cake had get them all mucky, and
Speaker 2: it had to be funny and it had to be
Speaker 2: technically accurate. That was the one that I was really
Speaker 2: really uptied about because there was.
Speaker 3: No margin for error and there were lots of opportunities
Speaker 3: for air. So, you know, that was that was the
Speaker 3: most technical filmmaking we did on it. And the funny
Speaker 3: thing is is that when it came to the actual
Speaker 3: shot of the cake going into their faces, because that
Speaker 3: whole cake was was was was not. It was foam,
Speaker 3: rubber and latex, and so for the most part, the
Speaker 3: cake is phony and it's just.
Speaker 2: It's just, you know, it's it's it's a fake cake.
Speaker 3: And so we could do a lot with it and
Speaker 3: drop it and it just bounced and then you could
Speaker 3: drop it again. But when it came to getting them dirty,
Speaker 3: we had a couple of duplicate costumes for them, and
Speaker 3: there was a plan to get them showered and hair
Speaker 3: and make up redone as fast as possible, but I
Speaker 3: just knew that I was going to lose too much
Speaker 3: time and I needed to just get it done in
Speaker 3: as few takes as possible. And it was me and
Speaker 3: my production designer off camera, and we were, you know,
Speaker 3: at the count three, we threw the cake and the
Speaker 3: icing into their faces and it was a bullseye.
Speaker 2: Wow, it was an absolute bullseye, and we watched it
Speaker 2: and we.
Speaker 3: Just decided to keep moving on and we had it,
Speaker 3: so I lecked out.
Speaker 2: That was the luckiest break on this entire.
Speaker 3: Film was getting the cake in their faces the first take,
Speaker 3: the first and only take.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was it. And then the one that I
Speaker 2: was really excited to do was the VNA scene at
Speaker 2: the Victoria and Albert Museum. Scene at night in the museum.
Speaker 1: It just beautiful, was the scene.
Speaker 2: That's my favorite scene in the book.
Speaker 1: And when he clicked that music on, come on, come on, Yeah, yeah, that.
Speaker 2: Was that was That was That was the one I
Speaker 2: was most looking forward to.
Speaker 3: That was that was we were locked into the v
Speaker 3: N a overnight.
Speaker 2: We we we had it all to ourselves.
Speaker 3: It was pretty magical, and it was just the two
Speaker 3: of them, you know, there were no there were no extras.
Speaker 2: There was a very you know, the crew had you know,
Speaker 2: the crew.
Speaker 3: We were just all like a family at that point.
Speaker 3: And so it was a real night at the museum.
Speaker 3: And then you know, picking up music because I know
Speaker 3: in the book it's Elton John's your song, and which
Speaker 3: I knew and instinctively wasn't gonna work for us.
Speaker 2: In the film.
Speaker 3: It just wasn't the right sound, uh, And so we
Speaker 3: auditioned a lot of different songs, and on set we
Speaker 3: used that one. We used the Perfect Genius and had
Speaker 3: my Perfect.
Speaker 2: Genius was gonna do a new cover of an older.
Speaker 3: Song for us that we really were excited about. And
Speaker 3: then I cut together the assembly of the film and
Speaker 3: we watched the scene with Perfect Geniuses Can Help falling
Speaker 3: in Love, and we knew it was the right song
Speaker 3: and it was perfect. And so that was another lucky
Speaker 3: break because the song that we just decided to use
Speaker 3: on set was the song we ended up using the film.
Speaker 1: I think that song is gonna sore to number one.
Speaker 2: So it's a beautiful recording. It's an absolutely.
Speaker 1: Beautiful, absolutely beautiful. And I have to tell you when
Speaker 1: I put up a story on Monday night saying that
Speaker 1: I saw the movie and I screened it in and
Speaker 1: it was great, I had so many people message me,
Speaker 1: people I haven't even spoken to him forever, and I
Speaker 1: was shocked at how many of those people were straight.
Speaker 1: This story, this book has such a built in fandom
Speaker 1: from all areas and walks of life. I don't feel
Speaker 1: like you're the type of person that lets that pressure
Speaker 1: sneak in when you making your art, when you're making
Speaker 1: your project, when you made the movie. But how do
Speaker 1: you kind of not let that cloud your mind when
Speaker 1: you are creating this movie, knowing that there's so many
Speaker 1: people who are waiting and wanting and loving this.
Speaker 2: I learned I.
Speaker 3: Think I learned in theater that worrying about what other
Speaker 3: people think is just really a pointless exercise. You really
Speaker 3: you only have, especially on a film, you only have
Speaker 3: one chance to get it right. You're only in that
Speaker 3: you're only on that set one day. You got to
Speaker 3: move on to the next scene. You're always just moving forward.
Speaker 3: And so you really on a film set, you are
Speaker 3: living in the present. There's no past, there's no future,
Speaker 3: and that is actually incredibly helpful.
Speaker 2: For focus, you know, and I need that. I think
Speaker 2: it's just sort of the typrote thing. If you look down,
Speaker 2: you're gonna fall.
Speaker 3: I didn't think about ultimately what anybody would think of
Speaker 3: the film.
Speaker 2: I just kept following my gut and following my instincts.
Speaker 2: I knew, I knew this story. I knew and look,
Speaker 2: it's my version of red, white, and moral blue. Right,
Speaker 2: It's it's not anybody else's.
Speaker 3: It's not case It's not even Casey's, and Casey will
Speaker 3: be the first two minute Casey's. Casey's book is Casey's book,
Speaker 3: and my movie is my movie. It's my movie based
Speaker 3: on Casey's book, and it is my reaction to Casey's book.
Speaker 3: And the things that I love about Casey's book are
Speaker 3: what I put into the movie. And I knew that
Speaker 3: I would own it regardless, so I might as well
Speaker 3: do it in exactly the way that my instinct tells
Speaker 3: me to do and not worry about what other people
Speaker 3: would it.
Speaker 1: Man, that must be incredibly freeing. And I read a
Speaker 1: quote you gave in a different interview and you said,
Speaker 1: love it or hate it, it's the movie I set
Speaker 1: out to make. That doesn't always happen. I love that quote.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. I look.
Speaker 3: The one thing that is really true about this process
Speaker 3: is that I was surrounded by incredibly talented people across
Speaker 3: the board.
Speaker 2: This cast is a dream cast.
Speaker 3: I worked with one of the legendary cinematographers in the business.
Speaker 3: I mean, Stephen Goldblatt was this cinematographer Angels in America,
Speaker 3: and in addition to the Cotton Club, which is a
Speaker 3: forgotten gem of Francis Coppola's.
Speaker 2: But I never ever felt.
Speaker 3: As if I had to do this on my own,
Speaker 3: and I never felt that I did not have my
Speaker 3: It was really remarkable that every single idea I have
Speaker 3: was executed perfectly. And you know, look, the things that
Speaker 3: we knew weren't going to work physically or within budget,
Speaker 3: we adjusted because that's just filmmaking. But it really the
Speaker 3: movie I dreamed of in my head when I started
Speaker 3: working on this film is largely up there on the screen.
Speaker 1: Well. And one thing I love that you chose to do,
Speaker 1: I imagine pretty strategically, is this movie doesn't shy away from
Speaker 1: being sexy. You have these intimate scenes and they're beautiful,
Speaker 1: and you actually feel like you're watching a couple having
Speaker 1: a loving moment. And sometimes I feel like in content
Speaker 1: that's for the queer community, you kind of get the
Speaker 1: water down version of that and you don't always get
Speaker 1: to see those moments of true, deep passionate love. Was
Speaker 1: that something important for you to show between the two
Speaker 1: gentlemen deeply deeply?
Speaker 3: I think you know one or two things usually ends
Speaker 3: up being true, not always, And those other movies and
Speaker 3: those other scenes stand out as a result. But either
Speaker 3: it's a scene that is you can tell it's a
Speaker 3: straight filmmaker making the scene, or you know that it's
Speaker 3: a straight audience for whom the scene is being ultimately considered.
Speaker 3: And it's sort of like generally, I think in the past,
Speaker 3: a lot of it has, especially in studio movie, a
Speaker 3: lot of it is, you know, don't scare the straits,
Speaker 3: and there was none of that on this film.
Speaker 2: And I don't know if it was because I.
Speaker 3: Don't know, I don't know why, but I did not
Speaker 3: get any resistance to my plans for this thing.
Speaker 2: I also made it very clear at the beginning. I said,
Speaker 2: you know, if you hire me, this is going to
Speaker 2: be in the movie.
Speaker 3: So if you don't want it to be in the movie,
Speaker 3: you should find somebody else to make this film. And
Speaker 3: I was very upfront about it because I didn't want
Speaker 3: to have any arguments later.
Speaker 2: And what was really important.
Speaker 7: To me is is I really wanted to I really
Speaker 7: wanted to do two things which I'd never I hadn't
Speaker 7: seen much of in film. I wanted to show two
Speaker 7: men having sex in a way that is loving, that
Speaker 7: is connected, that is that is pleasurable, and that is
Speaker 7: is beautiful, and I also wanted to film a sex
Speaker 7: whose geography and whose physical execution of makes sense to
Speaker 7: people who know.
Speaker 2: How to have gay sex. So I needed it.
Speaker 3: To both be incredibly accurate physically, and I also needed
Speaker 3: it to be incredibly to the point where we are
Speaker 3: in the story. I needed it to be focused on
Speaker 3: the characters. I needed it to be focused on their journey.
Speaker 3: And so we applied both seemingly oppositional desires.
Speaker 2: To the scene and it ended up being the scene
Speaker 2: that's in the film.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, they're beautiful scenes. I'm happy you suck to
Speaker 1: your instinct and your guts on that. I was surprised
Speaker 1: that the movie and I know you share the same sentiment.
Speaker 1: Got to rate it, are, I guess because of the
Speaker 1: sex scenes. But that surprised me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I say it surprised me. And then
Speaker 2: also it didn't surprise me.
Speaker 3: You know, it's sort of like, you know, I think
Speaker 3: in the perfect world that maybe sometimes still exists in
Speaker 3: my head, it surprised me.
Speaker 2: And then in the reality that I live in, it didn't.
Speaker 2: It's like not surprising at all. It's I think that
Speaker 2: it's just it's two things it's.
Speaker 3: I just if it had been a man and a woman,
Speaker 3: if it hadn't been a gay couple, I really don't
Speaker 3: think that scene would have garnered the R rating, But
Speaker 3: let's even pretend that that that maybe it would have.
Speaker 2: What is more depressing to.
Speaker 3: Me actually is the fact that it is sexuality that
Speaker 3: got us the R rating. And you you can name
Speaker 3: a dozen movies that are incredibly violent, far more violent
Speaker 3: movies than my film is sexual that RPG thirteen. So
Speaker 3: I think even if you set aside latent homophobia or
Speaker 3: over homophobia, you're still left with the problem that the
Speaker 3: NPAA favors violence over sexuality. They prefer American audiences see
Speaker 3: acts of violence than acts of love, and that's really
Speaker 3: fucked up. Yeah, and I think that it's it may
Speaker 3: be overdue for a reassessment of the use of the NPAA.
Speaker 3: I don't know what its function is anymore, and I
Speaker 3: think it might be a little outdated.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, which is all the more reason why
Speaker 1: a movie like this is important with the choices you
Speaker 1: made artistically, because it's going to show people that this
Speaker 1: is content people want to see, and they're going to
Speaker 1: line up to see it, and there's no problem with it. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, you are.
Speaker 3: Living in the same country that we did when the
Speaker 3: NPAA was over right, right, I feel like the.
Speaker 2: Standards are still being applied to the.
Speaker 3: Probably I would imagine the nineteen sixties or early seventies
Speaker 3: is when the MPAA was probably founded. I don't know
Speaker 3: that off the top of my head, but you know,
Speaker 3: we're not living in that world anymore. And I don't
Speaker 3: see anything in this film that actually anybody who isn't
Speaker 3: at least thirteen, couldn't couldn't.
Speaker 2: Watch, you know. Yeah, so but hey, that's me. What
Speaker 2: do I know?
Speaker 1: No, I agree. I think it's a film for everybody.
Speaker 1: And like I said, I'm glad you made the choices
Speaker 1: you made, Matthew. I imagine doing a movie like this is
Speaker 1: so gratifying on a million different levels and in a
Speaker 1: million different ways. But personally, what do you learn about
Speaker 1: yourself through making your very first movie like this?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 3: I learned that I could get by on a lot
Speaker 3: less sleep than I ever imagined.
Speaker 2: I look. I think that.
Speaker 3: Hollywood has for the last several years been going through
Speaker 3: a reassessment of what is acceptable behavior for people with power,
Speaker 3: And there is no person in Hollywood at a certain
Speaker 3: point in any filmmaking process, more powerful on any given
Speaker 3: day than the director of a film. And my two
Speaker 3: mentors in this business were Stephen Daldry and Tom Fontana
Speaker 3: is one of the great TV showrunners. And they both
Speaker 3: operate in the world from a place of kindness, and
Speaker 3: they operate in this world from the place of really
Speaker 3: wanting to help people do their best work. And when
Speaker 3: you're on when you're working with Stephen or you're working with.
Speaker 2: Tom, you're working, but you're always.
Speaker 3: Valued, you're always asked how you're doing, and you're always
Speaker 3: having fun. And it was something that I I think
Speaker 3: I maybe unconsciously brought with me into the process of
Speaker 3: doing this. And there were days when I was frustrated.
Speaker 3: There are days when I got angry. There were days
Speaker 3: when something didn't work and it was somebody's fault and
Speaker 3: you could actually find someone.
Speaker 2: To blame for it.
Speaker 3: And my instincts always in the time of stress or
Speaker 3: to get angry. But my actions, I learned, were much
Speaker 3: more effective if I didn't.
Speaker 2: And it's so easy to be.
Speaker 3: Awful, and it is so hard sometimes to be kind,
Speaker 3: And yet I discovered through exercising the lessons that I
Speaker 3: learned from Stephen and Tom on hopefully a daily basis
Speaker 3: that you really really do get the best work out
Speaker 3: of people. If you create a warm, loving, safe environment
Speaker 3: for them. You can push them harder to do scarier things.
Speaker 3: You can make something that is seemingly impossible possible. Weirdly,
Speaker 3: I also think it saves your time. So I learned
Speaker 3: about myself that my mentors were right, and that I
Speaker 3: also learned about myself that I have more of a
Speaker 3: capacity to be understanding of people than I ever imagined.
Speaker 3: And I know that sounds like I'm in some ways
Speaker 3: boasting or tuning my own horn or whatever.
Speaker 2: But I think if.
Speaker 3: Anybody knows me, knows that I'm I'm pretty driven and
Speaker 3: I can be tough, and I can be tough on myself.
Speaker 3: But I hope also that people know that I that I.
Speaker 3: I hope I have a reputation for being loving and
Speaker 3: kind and caring and that battle within anybody between those
Speaker 3: two instincts. I sort of wage that internally on this
Speaker 3: movie and love love always wins.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 1: That's beautiful. I love that I do. What a great
Speaker 1: realization to have through through doing your work. That's so cool.
Speaker 1: And I think man, we all need to tap into
Speaker 1: more of the kindness thing in this world, in society.
Speaker 1: It's very important.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be nice. It would be really nice.
Speaker 3: And it applies in all things, in all ways, and
Speaker 3: not just in this business. And it applies to our
Speaker 3: discourse and the way we treat other people on social media,
Speaker 3: the way we treat other people.
Speaker 2: At the supermarket, right everywhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right on with that, Matthew. The last question for
Speaker 1: you is off the title of the show, which is
Speaker 1: I've never said this before, So I would love to
Speaker 1: know something that you have never said before that you
Speaker 1: would like to share. It can be deep, it can
Speaker 1: be silly, it can be anything you want.
Speaker 3: I've never said this before, but I used to want
Speaker 3: to be president of the United States, Do you really?
Speaker 2: I really did.
Speaker 3: When I was about between the ages of about fifteen
Speaker 3: and seventeen, maybe eighteen, I just fell so passionately in
Speaker 3: love with politics, and I was a big We've read
Speaker 3: the New York Times at that age, and I watched
Speaker 3: CNN constantly, and I just wanted to be if not
Speaker 3: president then like proximal to the president, or maybe a
Speaker 3: senator or a congressman.
Speaker 2: I just wanted to be in politics.
Speaker 6: And then I discovered that I liked kissing guys. I
Speaker 6: at that time in my life and that time, in
Speaker 6: this kind of she's life, I knew, well, I could
Speaker 6: either I could either kiss guys or run for president.
Speaker 2: And and the boys won. What can I say?
Speaker 3: So it's funny because when I was thinking about that question,
Speaker 3: I was trying to figure out what's how to answer,
Speaker 3: and and I remember giving an interview about being on
Speaker 3: the Oval Office set, and I just I remember actually
Speaker 3: sitting behind the desk, you know, before work one day,
Speaker 3: and just thinking. I remembered in that moment how I
Speaker 3: had these dreams of like I wanted to go to Loss.
Speaker 2: I planned it all.
Speaker 3: I was going to get into politics, and then you know,
Speaker 3: summer of ninety five, I just.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean never say never, though, right, you know?
Speaker 2: I mean sure, never say never.
Speaker 3: I'd rather maybe make donations to queer candidates and let
Speaker 3: other people.
Speaker 2: Do that themselves.
Speaker 1: Fair enough, that's an awesome answer. So were you geeking
Speaker 1: extra hard at Uma Thurman as president?
Speaker 2: God? Are you kidding me?
Speaker 3: It was like I think Uma and I were both
Speaker 3: geeking together about it. Like people would never say this,
Speaker 3: but I saw her sit behind that desk and she's
Speaker 3: sort of like she had an idea or two about
Speaker 3: what she could do after this movie. I think that
Speaker 3: you what I absolutely can say, even on a sound
Speaker 3: stage in London, you walk into even an approximation of
Speaker 3: the Oval Office and you really do feel this immense
Speaker 3: sense of power, this immense sense of history. And I
Speaker 3: mean it was like pol I would and like fake,
Speaker 3: like really cheap carpeting, and yet still you can't.
Speaker 2: Help but be on, you know.
Speaker 3: But I do think that Ellen has a much better
Speaker 3: sense of style than Joe Biden.
Speaker 1: I would agree. Well, listen, if in a few years
Speaker 1: from now, ten years, twenty years, I see your name
Speaker 1: on the race, I'm going to pull this interview and say,
Speaker 1: see see you do you do?
Speaker 2: And then I'm going to come to you for big donations.
Speaker 1: All right, Matthew, this was awesome. I like I said,
Speaker 1: I love the movie. You did a fantastic job. I
Speaker 1: think you're such a brilliant artist. As we close out
Speaker 1: the episode, tell people when, how where? How to watch
Speaker 1: this film All the things.
Speaker 3: Red, White, and World Blue on Amazon Prime starting August eleventh,
Speaker 3: everywhere in the world.
Speaker 1: Amazing, Thank you, my friend. This was so much fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really appreciate talking to you. Thank you.
Speaker 1: I've Never Said This Before is hosted by me, Tommy Diderio.
Speaker 1: This podcast is produced and edited by Mike Coscarelli, and
Speaker 1: executive producers are Andrew Piglisi and Katrina Norvel at iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1: I've Never Said This Before is part of the Elvis
Speaker 1: Durant podcast Network on iHeart Podcasts. For more rate review
Speaker 1: and subscribe to our show and if you liked this episode,
Speaker 1: tell your friends. Until next time, I'm Tommy Diderio.