1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to The Piked and Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: and Katie Studios. I gotta tell you from kind of 3 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: a visceral standpoint, when I heard the news that this 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: kid had rolled over on this case, one thing that 5 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: kind of came to mind from me is, you know, 6 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: I kind of envisioned his mother in almost a mob 7 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: Barker kind of way, that she's kind of the puppet 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: master that's controlling everything. He's sitting there all along, and 9 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: suddenly he has this lucid moment where he's out from 10 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: under that though, and he realizes, I'm going to get 11 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: the needle for all of this. This is The Piked 12 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: and Massacre. Returned to Pike County Season two, Episode three, 13 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: Wagner Versus Wagner m Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at 14 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. On April 15 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: twenty second, twenty twenty one, Jake Wagner pleaded guilty to 16 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: eight aggravated murder charges in the Rodent family massacre. As 17 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: part of his plea deal, he implicated his mother, Angela Wagner, 18 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: father Billy Wagner, and brother George Wagner as co conspirators 19 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 1: in the killings. He's also agreeing to testify against his 20 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: parents and brother, who are also charged in these murders. 21 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: Here's reporter Anjeanette Levy. I don't believe anybody knew he 22 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: was going to do this, So it's it's a pretty 23 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: stunning development to see Jake Wagner, the youngest of the 24 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: entire family, who would you would think would be, you know, 25 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: maybe the most pliable in some respects because he is 26 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: the youngest. But to see him just break away from 27 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: his family, I don't know, it's it's pretty interesting. The 28 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: significance of Jake Wagner folding on his family cannot be overstated. 29 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: But what does it mean moving forward? Criminal defense attorney 30 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: Mike Allen told Stephanie that it could signal an impending 31 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: legal chess match. In terms of Jake Wagner's admission of guilt. 32 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 1: I'm just curious about what that means altogether. He's confessed 33 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: to killing five of the eight Rodents. Personally, is he 34 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: trying to save himself or trying to save his family? 35 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: You know, obviously, you know, if he did five out 36 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: of eight, you still have three left, and you know 37 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 1: it'll come out who who actually did the killing on 38 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: those other three, but it was probably a strategic move 39 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: on the prosecutor's part not to let that out yet. 40 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: And you know Proscue is not going to show his cards, 41 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: or in this case, she Angie when she's got three 42 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: other defendants to try, so they're still going to hold 43 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: it close to the vest I think. Stephanie asked reporter 44 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: James Pilcher if there were still moves left for Jake 45 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: to play. Is it possible that he'll say that Jacob 46 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: could say I was in a very controlling environment. My mother, 47 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner, controlled us, My father was a bully and 48 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: said I had to do these things, and we were 49 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: coerced into it. Is there any value in that even? 50 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: I mean, that's entirely possible, and some of the reporting 51 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: that's what we've heard Lee Coal. The other thing I 52 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: will say is that maybe they're going after bigger game 53 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: than Jake, and they figured we'll cut this deal. Now 54 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: he'll give us what we want and then we can 55 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,639 Speaker 1: go get the mom and the dad. But clearly they 56 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: were going after the people who plotted it. This was 57 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: not Jake's idea, right or at least not according to 58 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: the prosecutors. This was a family coming together. That's what 59 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: the prosecutors are after, is that, Okay, we get Jake 60 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: to help us, we get Jake to plead out. It 61 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: shows that this really did happen. Now we can go 62 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: after the people who actually planned it. On April twenty eighth, 63 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: just six days after Jake Wagner's hearing, his accused brother, 64 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: George Wagner, walked into the Pike County Courthouse. The first 65 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: court hearing since last week's surprise plea deal in the 66 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: Pike County murder trials took place today. This hearing for 67 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: George Wagner was supposed to center on a few defense 68 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: emotions involving discovery evidence. Anette Levy was on the scene 69 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: that day. She spoke to producer Chris Graves. He kind 70 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: of described the mood and what was going on. The 71 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: mood was a lot lighter than it had been in 72 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: the past. The Roden family is a little bit that 73 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: I saw of them. They just seemed happy for the 74 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 1: first time in a long time. And I think I 75 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 1: saw Hannah Gilly's mother and she actually seemed happy. And 76 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: they can start to finally look fitthered, So it was 77 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: just a much lighter mood. But you know George the Fourth, 78 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: obviously it wasn't a lighter mood for him. He looked 79 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 1: very stressed. He looked very thin. He doesn't look good. 80 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: You can see it on his face. In the aftermath 81 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 1: of Jake Wagner's shocking confession, many wondered how accused older 82 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: brother George Wagner's hearing would play out. We spoke at 83 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 1: length about George in the last two episodes. It was 84 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: at his wedding that the last known picture of the 85 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: Roden and Wagner families was taken. Also, George and his 86 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: ex wife dealt with eerily similar custody issues that would 87 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: foreshadow what would happen between victim Hannah Roden and Jake Wagner. 88 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: His lawyer, Rick Nash, has been very assertive and maintained 89 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: that George the Fourth there was no case against him, 90 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: that there was no evidence against him. But now he's 91 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: kind of having to swallow his pride a little bit, 92 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: I think and realize that there may be some really 93 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 1: good evidence tying his client to this and this emotion. 94 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: Hearing was for like all these boilerplate death penalty motions. 95 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: Death penalty is off the table now. People following the 96 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: case wondered would George Wagner strike a plea deal as well. 97 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: My opinion of George the fourth is that he's kind 98 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 1: of is the weakest link in this family because he's 99 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: got the most to lose. He has a son who 100 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: he loves dearly, and he wants to be with his son. 101 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: And so I was wondering, what's George going to do? 102 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: Instead of a guilty plead, the court heard something far 103 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: less dramatic. It took us in five minutes for George 104 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 1: wage to the fourth to ask for more time to 105 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: evaluate the situation. No, Judge, I don't think so. We 106 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: I think everybody's agreed that, given recent events, that everybody 107 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: needs to step back and reassess. The hearing concluded with 108 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 1: an agreement to reschedule the motion for June twenty first, 109 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: twenty one. Though there were no bombshell developments, it's clear 110 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: that the next few weeks will be pivotal. George Wagner 111 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: and his accused parents, Angela and Billy Wagner must now 112 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: decide how they will proceed. Do you think that it's 113 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: possible that now that Jake took the plea deal and 114 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: admitted to the murders that we may see Billy Angela 115 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: and or George doing this same thing. I think it's 116 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: possible that the others could plead out. But at the 117 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 1: same time, what's the point They have nothing to lose 118 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: by going to trial, because they either to plead out 119 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: get life in prison, or they roll the dice and 120 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: go to trial and maybe they can hang a jury. 121 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: As Mike Allen points out, there's no one case that 122 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: assures an Is there any version of this where one 123 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: of them is found guilty and the other are found innocent. 124 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: It's possible, Yeah, I mean, it just it all depends 125 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: on what the individual juries want to do. Yeah, I mean, 126 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: that's very possible, And it's happened on trials that where 127 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: they're two defendants that have been severed, where one has 128 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: found guilty and the other one is not. You know, 129 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: different juries are different and it'll be a different jury 130 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: for every one of these trials, and lawyers will tell you, 131 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: especially criminal lawyers, you never know what is going to 132 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: happen with the jury. And I've been at this for 133 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: forty years and juries are becoming even more unpredictable. I 134 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: don't know why, but they are. But in answer to 135 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: your question, yeah, that's a possibility. Last episode, we heard 136 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: Bureau of Criminal Investigation agent Ryan Scheiderer testify about the 137 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: Wagner's cult like family dynamic. They're very They lived together, 138 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: They've always lived together. Their finances are intermingled, the homeschool together, 139 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: they raise their kids together. Everything is done together. As 140 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,679 Speaker 1: well as we have an informat who says that every 141 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: decision within that family is made as a family decision. 142 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: Without any of the other Wagners coming forward with plea deals, 143 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: there are still a lot of questions that need to 144 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: be answered about the family that is alleged to have 145 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: carried out Ohio's most notorious crime. It's worth noting that 146 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: while Jake Wagner pleaded guilty, Angela Billy and George Wagner 147 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:36,239 Speaker 1: have pleaded not guilty. The state is kind of maintained 148 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: that each person in this conspiracy had their own role, 149 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,959 Speaker 1: They had their own kind of part to play, And 150 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: you know, it's going to be interesting to see how 151 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: strong the evidence is to support their assertion that each 152 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: person had a role in this conspiracy. At this point, 153 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: one thing is clear, Jake Wagner holds the fate of 154 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: his family in his hands, and the united front the 155 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: Wagner family has built is beginning to erode. How it 156 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: will all unfold is anyone's guess. Remember, we don't know 157 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: exactly what Jake said and how he said it. We 158 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: just know that he confessed and led them to evidence. 159 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: So there's still a lot we don't know based on 160 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 1: what the prosecution outlined in court. So let's take a 161 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: look at the evidence we know about based on what 162 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: we've heard through preliminary hearings over the past three years. 163 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: One of the most informative was a hearing for accused 164 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: brother George Wagner that took place on August thirty first, 165 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: twenty twenty. That day, George's attorneys requested that he be 166 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 1: allowed to post bail, arguing that there was no evidence 167 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: to tie him to the case, and Neette Levy was 168 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: at the Pike County courthouse that day. It was actually 169 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: a fool's errand because in the state of Ohio, someone 170 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: charged with aggravated murder in which the deaf count Vias thought, 171 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: can be held without bail automatically. There's really no question 172 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: about it. So they were kind of wanting to, I 173 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: think get some more information about the evidence in the 174 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: case and the BCI agent on the case. The lead agent, 175 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: Ryan Scheiterer, took the stand and answered a series of 176 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: questions about the evidence in the case that they have 177 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: against George. Swear or firm testimony were about gears true 178 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: the whole I see that special Agent Ryan Scheiderer of 179 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: the Bureau of Criminal Investigation taking his oath in court. 180 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: During the hearing, George Wagner's attorney tried to distance his 181 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: client from the crime and his accused family. His attorney 182 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: had set something to the effect of the evidence of 183 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 1: you know, if it tied anybody to this, it was 184 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: Jake and Angela, not George. What text or digital communications 185 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: did you find too or from him? If you think 186 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: is relevant specifically about text messages with George, I don't 187 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,359 Speaker 1: remember any. Did you collect a cell phone from George? 188 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: I don't believe we ever collected George celler What connection 189 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 1: does George had to do with that laptime? The device 190 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: was registered to Jake, specifically Angela, who seemed to be 191 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: the primary user of that laptop, but there was some 192 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: evidence that implicated George Wagner along with his brother Jake 193 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: and the crimes. One of the most striking parts of 194 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: Agent Scheider's testimony had to do with the type of 195 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 1: guns used in the homicides. We know the three calibers 196 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: of firearms that were used to convent these murders, and 197 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: they were a twenty two caliber long rifle, a forty 198 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 1: caliber and a thirty caliber. Scheiderer went on to make 199 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: a direct correlation between the twenty two caliber shell casings 200 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: found at victims Dana Rodin and Frankie Roden's homes and 201 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,359 Speaker 1: the property owned by the Wagner family. Here's Agent Scheiterer 202 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,439 Speaker 1: being questioned by Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa. We recovered twenty two 203 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: caliber shell casings and where we recovered those which at 204 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: two sixty Peterson Road, which was a property that was 205 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: owned by George Wager and his brother Jake. And were 206 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: those shell casings submitted to the lab or comparison to 207 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:04,599 Speaker 1: the shell casings that had been recovered from both Frankie's 208 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: and Dana's residences. Yes, and what was the opinion of 209 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: the The weapon that fired the shell casings at two 210 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: sixty Pierson Road also fired the shell casings at Anna's 211 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: and Dana's residence as well as Frankie and Anna Gillis residence. 212 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: So the same firearm had been suspired on the same properties. Okay, 213 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: So he eat exact same gun, not just the same 214 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: type of gun, the same firearms, okay. Forensic expert Joseph 215 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: Morgan explained the intricate science involved in tying a shell 216 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:46,319 Speaker 1: casing back to a specific gun. The inside of a 217 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: handgun like this has got rifling. That means it's got lands, 218 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: which are kind of flat plateau looking formations. And also 219 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: because these are soft metal brass casings that are being 220 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 1: ejected once the round is fired, you have what are 221 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: referred to as extraction marks. This spent case in it 222 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,479 Speaker 1: leaves these little marks that are unique to the interior 223 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: housing of this particular weapon. And even you can have 224 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: a weapon that rolls off the line with fifty other 225 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: weapons that are the same same model, but they're all 226 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 1: going to be unique at a microscopic level, and that's 227 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: how they tied back the projectile to a specific weapon. 228 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: Another suspicious item was found during a different search of 229 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: the same Wagner property. The police went back and they 230 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: found what the ATF says was likely used as a 231 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: homemade silencer for a gun. Agent Scheiderer elaborated recovered a 232 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: maglite flashlight turned into the suppressor. Yeah adapter at one 233 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: end that as a solid adapter, they closed in and 234 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: they at the other end you add a thread adapter 235 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: and it's designed to catch cleaning solvent when you're cleaning 236 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: your firearm, but it can easily be converted into a suppressor. 237 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: They determined that it was a suppressor as defined by 238 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: federal statue, been fired at least one time because they 239 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: could see a bull of striking inside the suppressor. Thing. 240 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: That was pretty interesting because that wasn't found. That was 241 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: found in I think October of twenty eighteen, right before 242 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: the indictments came out, and that property, the Peterson Road home, 243 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: had been searched in May of twenty seventeen. I mean, 244 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: when I hear that, it sounds like someone told them 245 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: about it. We know, but Jake led them to the guns, 246 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: the murder weapons, the car used purchased and news and 247 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: so who knows. Maybe. During cross examination by George Wagner's attorney, 248 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: Agent Scheiderer highlighted some of the other evidence the state 249 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: has on George, including wire tap surveillance. Could you approximate 250 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: to the nearest hundred many hours you have regarding this 251 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: recording of George Wagner hours? Not really, but I would 252 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: say over one hundred days, over agred days, Okay, And 253 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: so I want you to focus on those hundred days, 254 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: and maybe your answer is the same, but I'm going 255 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: to ask it a different way. Could you tell us 256 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: over that one hundred days of recording George Wagner what 257 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: statement he made that you recorded that ties him into 258 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: this case. I mean, he never confessed, if that's what 259 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: you're getting at, but he made incriminating statements. At a 260 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: different hearing, George Wagner appeared in court for an unusual 261 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: request to be put in solitary confinement. Here's Jeff speaking 262 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: with Mike Allen. What about George Wagner asking for solitary confinement? 263 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: What do you make of that? His stated reason was 264 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: that he wanted to be able to study the Bible 265 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: in peace. That's a little unusual when inmates ask for 266 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: solitary A lot of times, although they may not say it, 267 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: they're asking for that because they've been threatened, and you know, 268 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: they want to make sure that they're as safe as 269 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: they can be in jail. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard 270 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: to know what's going through his head. But I mean, 271 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: either he's immersing himself in the Holy Bible or somebody 272 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: saying that they're going to do something to him. Either way, 273 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: his mental state is probably not good. But when I 274 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: read that, I kind of wondered, is that the real reason? 275 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you just have to wonder what 276 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: the motivation is. Since his arrest in twenty eighteen, accused 277 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: father Billy Wagner has also staunchly maintained his innocence. Billy 278 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: Wagner's attorney has been very adamant that there's no evidence. 279 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: There's no case against Billy Wagner, but there's nothing. They have, 280 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: nothing that ties him to this. Last year, Billy Wagner 281 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: made an audacious move to separate himself from the other 282 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: members of his family and move his trial word. He 283 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: took it upon himself to file a motion in court. 284 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: It had to do with his right to what's referred 285 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: to as a speedy trial, an Ohio procedural rule stipulating 286 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: that anyone charged with a felony must be brought to 287 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,479 Speaker 1: trial within two hundred and seventy days of their arrest. 288 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: While accused father Billy Wagner, had initially waived his right 289 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: to a speedy trial, it seems he suddenly had a 290 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,239 Speaker 1: change of heart. The court received a handwritten motion from 291 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: Billy Wagner asking that his right to a speedy trial 292 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: be invoked and that he withdraw his waiver of this 293 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: speedy trial right. He was pretty frustrated. I guess that 294 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: he's sitting in jail. He says he's innocent and was 295 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: frustrated and submitted this or to the court. But it 296 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 1: was actually some fairly good jailhouse lawyering. I'm assuming he 297 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: had somebody in the jail can write this for him 298 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: and his attorneys. They became aware of it and talked 299 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: with him and withdrew it immediately. Mike Allen gave us 300 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 1: his professional opinion on Billy's homespun legal strategy. I don't 301 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 1: care how small your jail is, you're going to have 302 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: jail house lawyers and criminal defense attorneys instruct their clients. 303 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: Do not listen to the jail house lawyers. They don't 304 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: know what they're talking about. If they did, they wouldn't 305 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: be where they are. So that's every criminal defense lawyer's 306 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: worst nightmare is when your client files a motion without 307 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: consulting the attorney. It's a very stupid thing to do. 308 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: So Billy Wagner's lawyer, I'm sure, probably had some strong 309 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: words for him for doing that. Well, Billy and George 310 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: Wagner have been busy filing legal motions to help their cases. 311 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: The same camp be said about accused mother Angela Wagner. 312 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: Bob Craypence is what you would call, you know, the 313 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: first chair on this case for her defense team, and 314 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: he's been very it's been very quiet on that front. However, 315 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner has appeared in court for other reasons. At 316 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 1: a r in twenty nineteen, Judge Randy Deering revoked Angelo 317 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: Wagner's mail and phone privileges after she was caught trying 318 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: to discuss case strategy with her family. Here's her lawyer 319 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: speaking in court that day, which stipulated that Vita she 320 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 1: was in fact instructed she was having no contact with 321 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: the codefendants in this case. This team half presented as 322 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: was some information indicative of a violation of that stipulated 323 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: that she did in fact hilate that court or some 324 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: of Angelo Wagner's alleged orchestration was presented by Agent Scheiterer 325 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: at George's bail hearing last year. He testified about shoe 326 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: prints that were found at a few of the crime scenes. 327 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: This evidence points directly to Angelo Wagner's role in the conspiracy. 328 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: Exhibits eight and nine. These are the shoe impression prints 329 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: that were lifted from Chris Rogan Senior's residence, and those 330 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: are shoe impressons that are later determined to be from 331 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: a specific shoe that is determined to be sold by Walmart. Correct? 332 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: And then did you ultimately execute a search warrant up 333 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: on State out for you? One? Yes? And you described 334 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: to us what you were searching there there were two 335 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: pickup trucks and three trailers that were parked at that 336 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: location that belonged to the Wagoner family. Did you find 337 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: a receipt? Yes, we did. There was a Walmart receipt 338 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: resin Weird. The receipt was and Jake Wagner's okay, and 339 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: specifically in a tub marked important things or something correct, Okay, 340 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: what was the significance of that receipt? So this Walmart 341 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: receipt is for the Waverley Ohio walmart on Emma Avenue. 342 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: It is dated April seventh, twenty sixteen, time stamp at 343 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: sixteen fifty eight hours. On there there are the purchase 344 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 1: of two Athletic brand tennis shoes, which is consistent with 345 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: the shoes that we were looking for. And you indicated 346 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 1: that Angela told made a statement to your fellow agents 347 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: that she had purchased those shoes specifically for Jacob George. Correct. 348 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: And you were asked if you've recovered those shoes, if 349 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: you found those shoes, yes, and you did not correct. Correct, 350 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 1: And isn't it true that Angela said that she had 351 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: thrown those shoes away the very same day that she 352 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: bought them. Yes, because the boys didn't like the shoes. Correct, 353 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: But Jacob George told they denied knowledge of the shoes 354 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: ever seen. Correct. We're going to take a quick break here. 355 00:21:52,080 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. Altogether, it appears the 356 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: prosecution has amassed an overwhelming amount of evidence against the 357 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: Wagner family. Here is Agent Scheider telling George Wagner's attorney 358 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 1: just how much audio evidence the state has at their disposal. 359 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: What reportings do you have that you feel are relevant 360 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: for this or some evidence. Here. In these case, we 361 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: have you know, approximately eight thousand recordings primarily of the 362 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 1: Wagner individuals, the family. You know, we also have interviews where, 363 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: you know, I feel there was incriminating statements made within 364 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: the interviews. They've got wire taps in this case. They 365 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: have video surveillance evidence, they have, you know, countless interviews 366 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: with people. The prosecution has said, you know, this is 367 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 1: a voluminous file. They've said it takes up terabytes and terabytes. 368 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 1: A terabyte is a huge amount of space on a computer. 369 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 1: So like it kind of gives you an idea of 370 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: what they've gathered. The sheer volume of evidence shocked even 371 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: seasoned attorney Mike Allen. Here he is talking to Jeff 372 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: you as an expert. Is that a high amount? Is 373 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:17,360 Speaker 1: that a normal amount of evidence? No, that's just astronomical. 374 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: I would not have expected it to be that high. 375 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: It's not normal at all. According to investigative reporter Jodi Barr, 376 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: George and the other accused Wagners could have implicated each 377 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: other without even knowing. What we don't know is whether 378 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,880 Speaker 1: the Waggoners gave statements and what statements they made. Two 379 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: investigators before during or after the charge. We don't know 380 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: what the contents of any intercepted phone calls as they've 381 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: been in jail might be. Who knows what the state 382 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 1: of Ohio has as far as whether you know, statements 383 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: made by one Wagner could almost assure a conviction of another. 384 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: So how could we see the legal battles play out 385 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: in the courtroom if the Wagner's aside to go to trial. 386 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: As it stands, Billy Angela and George Wagner have all 387 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: been charged with eight counts of aggravated murder. If convicted, they, 388 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: like Jake, will spend the rest of their lives in prison. 389 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 1: Never have I seen anything even remotely close to this case. 390 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: I've been involved in some bad ones, but this one 391 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 1: is by far the worst. One of the many things 392 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: that's so unique about this offense is you do have 393 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: generations of family members just taken out completely excuse hard 394 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,400 Speaker 1: to imagine a fact scenario, you know, more bizarre than 395 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: this one. It's so unique in so many ways. One 396 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: of them is the enormous burden the trials will place 397 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 1: on the legal teams and the Ohio criminal justice system. 398 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,679 Speaker 1: You're trying the case in a small county with limited resources. 399 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 1: I don't know how they're going to do it. It's 400 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: just going to be a logistical nightmare. Can the Wagner 401 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: lawyers work together on the defense or does it all 402 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: have to be separate. They can work together, and that 403 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 1: happens sometimes when you have code defendants. I think at 404 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: some point you run into some strategy problems. But to 405 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 1: a certain extent they can. But the lawyer obviously has 406 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,439 Speaker 1: to zealously represent his client. But if it's in this 407 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: client's best interest to work with the other lawyers, yeah, 408 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: they definitely would. Witness testimony could also prove to be 409 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 1: a challenge. You're going to have witness burnout because many 410 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,719 Speaker 1: most probably of the witnesses in one trial will be 411 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: witnesses in the other. And you know that's a burden 412 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,919 Speaker 1: upon the witnesses, but the prosecution has no choice that 413 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: they have to go forward in that nature. Another obstacle 414 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: seating a jury of twelve impartial Pike County residence. Here's 415 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: Chris speaking to reporter James Pilcher. It's Ohio state law 416 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: that you initially have to try and seed a jury 417 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: in the county the crime was committed, correct, So Angela 418 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: Wagner has already requested that her trial be moved out 419 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: of Pike County, but under High I legal procedures, you 420 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 1: have to try to see the jury in the county 421 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,719 Speaker 1: where the crime was committed before you're allowed to move it. 422 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: So they've got a pull from a jury pool of 423 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 1: registered voters, will narrow it down to twelve plus a 424 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 1: couple of alternates, and that process can take anywhere from 425 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: three days to a week, depending on the complexity of 426 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: the case. I mean, that's going to be really difficult, 427 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: isn't it. I Mean there's only I think what twenty 428 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: seven twenty eight thousand residents in all of Pike County. 429 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: You have to pick jurors for cases out of a 430 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: jury pool that small. I would not be surprised to 431 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: see them have to move some of these trials to 432 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: another county. Again, here's Mike Allen. That's probably the judge's 433 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: the biggest headache in this case is to ultimately be 434 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 1: able to see separate juries that can be fair both 435 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: to the state and to the defense, because I think 436 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: you'd be hard pressed to find any county in the 437 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: stateable Ohio that just was not innundated with media coverage 438 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: about this. But it's important to keep this in mind. 439 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: If a potential juror says under own that, yes, I 440 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: have seen things in the media about this, but I 441 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: can divorce myself from those things and render a fair 442 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: and impartial verdict based upon the evidence that we see 443 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 1: from the witness stand, the testimony, and the instructions given 444 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: by the judge. That's then a good and acceptable juror. 445 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: And that's the only way that this case is going 446 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 1: to work. Because unless you're living in some kind of 447 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 1: a cave, I don't care who you are, you've heard 448 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 1: about it, and you know you're just not going to 449 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 1: be able to see a jury of twelve in any 450 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 1: of these cases where they've not heard anything about it. 451 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: How are each of the cases likely to affect the other? 452 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: Are there things that we should be keeping an eye 453 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: on The first one that goes I think as the 454 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 1: tougher road, and the guy going last or next to last, 455 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 1: they're going to have advantage by knowing which way the 456 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: judge will rule on evidentiary motions and things of that nature. 457 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: They'll have the benefit of watching the tape, so to speak, 458 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: like a like a football coach would. But there could 459 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: be one overlooked factor that determines the outcome of the cases, 460 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: the drive of the prosecuting attorneys. When you see a 461 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 1: case like this and see the position these young kids 462 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: have been put in, what does that make you feel? 463 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: When you see a case like this, it's just absolutely heartbreaking. 464 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: It just is because you just know that that is 465 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: going to permanently affect that child. There's no way that 466 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: it couldn't, but a prosecutors driven by justice for the 467 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: victim and the victim's family. But if you have a 468 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: particularly violent and hand this crime like you have here, 469 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: it's tough. But as a prosecutor, honestly, it makes you 470 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: want to work all the harder to get a conviction. 471 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: And yeah, it's just the way it is. We've heard 472 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: Special Agent Ryan Scheiderer mentioned witnesses who were close to 473 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: the Wagner's and excerpts of his testimony. Since Jake Wagner's confession, 474 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: we haven't heard anything from grandmother of the accused, Frederica Wagner. 475 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: Last season, we talked about how she was arrested on 476 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: obstruction of justice and perjury charges pertaining to bulletproof ESTs 477 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: she purchased for her son, Billy Wagner. Prosecutors believe she 478 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: purchased the best for him to use in the killings. 479 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: Her charges were dropped after a hearing in twenty nineteen, 480 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: as the prosecution feared not being able to try the 481 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: case before the two hundred and seventy days Speedy Trial statute. 482 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: But her case isn't closed yet, Frederica. They've indicated in 483 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: court documents that they may charge her again with obstruction. 484 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: Frederica Wagner has vehemently defended her family's innocence, but is 485 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: it possible that she knows more about what happened the 486 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: night of April twenty first, twenty sixteen than she's let on. 487 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: Depending on what Jake wagen her nose and reveals, it's 488 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: possible that grandmother Frederica Wagner could be looking at new charges. 489 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: Do you know what Jake pleading guilty, how that will 490 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: impact his grandmother? Well, they can always be reindicted if 491 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: there's additional new evidence. He kind of seems to be 492 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: like he's the key to this entire case. So yeah, 493 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: I suppose it's possible. To our knowledge, Frederica Wagner has 494 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: not been implicated in any other crimes, nor has she 495 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: made any plea deals with the prosecution, but the same 496 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: camp he said for the other grandmother who was charged 497 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: in the case, Rita Newcome, Angela Wagner's mother, had initially 498 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: told investigators that she had notarized and signed some custody 499 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,719 Speaker 1: documents for the child that Jake and Hannah shared in 500 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: the event that they died. But then later as her 501 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: trial approached, on the day of trial, all of the sudden, 502 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: we were all out there ready to go, and the 503 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: trial was canceled. And then a short time later she 504 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: pleaded guilty, and in court the prosecution and outlined how 505 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: they said that Rita admitted that she had lied and 506 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: that her daughter Angela, had asked her to lie about 507 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: signing and notarizing those custody documents. Here's a statement read 508 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: a newcommade during her plea deal, as anyone promised you 509 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: anything at all, or threatened you in any way at all, 510 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: in order to induce you to withdraw your former plea 511 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: of not guilty entered to the original charge of obstructing justice, 512 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: a fifth degree felony in count four, and to enter 513 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: a plea of guilty to the amended charge of obstructing 514 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: official business a misdemeanor of the second degree. No, I 515 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: just feel that it's not a good Christian thing to 516 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: line and I couldn't input it in the more. This 517 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: is all despite Angela Wagner's repeated attempts to further manipulate 518 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: her mother. During court hearings for Angela's mother, Rita Newcome, 519 00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: it was stated that Angela Wagner was on jail calls 520 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: telling her mother, you don't have to testify against us. 521 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: Mike Allen told Stephanie about the challenges Rita Newcomb's testimony 522 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: could present if the trials move forward. If it's obvious 523 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: to the trial judge that she doesn't want to be 524 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: testifying to the state, the judge can and probably would, 525 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: designate her as a hostile witness. What is a hostile 526 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: witness If the prosecution has to call a witness to 527 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: establish or help establish one of the elements of the offense, 528 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: and that witnesses someone who's more sympathetic with the defense 529 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: in all likelihood than the judge would designate that person 530 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: a hostile witness, giving the prosecutor the opportunity to ask 531 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,959 Speaker 1: leading questions. So it's not a matter whether they get 532 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: up on the stand and act at crazy or act 533 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: like an idiot. It's a matter of is this person 534 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: going to cooperate with whoever is calling them. Another possibility 535 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: is hearing from one of the long rumored informants we 536 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: discussed last season. Mike Allen discussed the role in formants 537 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: usually play in cases like the Wagner's. Are you able to, Mike, 538 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: just tell us what an informant is. It usually is 539 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: a situation where they go to the police with some information. 540 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: I mean, police can seek out people too, and you know, 541 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: just say hey, you know, you tell us what you 542 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: know about this, And I mean it happens both ways, 543 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: but more often than not, it's it's the police know 544 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: that somebody there's a good chance somebody would know something, 545 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: and they seek that person out. But the thing of 546 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: it is, it's a confidential and reliable informant. So it 547 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: has to be someone that you can build a case 548 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: that they are reliable. At George Wagner's bond hearing last year, 549 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: agent Ryan Scheidier told the court that one informant had 550 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: disclosed a deadly plot that the Wagner family was planning 551 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: on carrying out. It included then Attorney General Mike Dwine, 552 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader, and Scheiderer himself. There is 553 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: a witness that testified that she was present when Sure, 554 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: his brother, Jake, his mom, and his dad were basically 555 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: organizing a retaliation plan should they get arrested and charged, 556 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: specifically targeting myself and the wine and Share for a year. Okay, 557 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 1: And according to the person who gave you this information, 558 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:27,320 Speaker 1: when was that stage summer of twenty eighteen. Anjanette Levy 559 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: heard Agent Scheiderer's testimony that day. I think there's supposed 560 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 1: to be a couple of informants in this case, and 561 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: one of them, which is very interesting, happens to be 562 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: a woman who married Jake Wagner when the family went 563 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 1: to Alaska. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll 564 00:34:49,840 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: be back in a moment. Last season, we talked about 565 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: the Wagner suspicious move to Alaska in June of twenty seventeen, 566 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: at the height of the rod and murder investigation. They 567 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: said this had been planned for some time. The boys 568 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: were looking for good jobs up there, and then Jake 569 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 1: met a woman at church. They became married, and in 570 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: the discovery documents that detail what was handed over by 571 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: the state to the Wagner attorneys. It states that there 572 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: are several interviews between a Bureau of Criminal Investigations agent 573 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 1: and the woman that Jake Wagner married while he was 574 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,800 Speaker 1: living in Alaska. So there are a number of interviews 575 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: with her and recorded phone calls between this woman and 576 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner. What about the witnesses who were left alive 577 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: at the scene the rod and children who were spared 578 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: that fateful night in twenty sixteen. One of the kids 579 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 1: was a three year old toddler. If that child witnessed 580 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: the murder, I don't know if he's said something when 581 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: the investors came in that pointed to possibly someone in 582 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: the Wagner family, because they would have all known each other. 583 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 1: You know, he's eight now, if he had any memory 584 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: or had said something at the time when they found him, 585 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: is there any potential that he might be called as 586 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: a witness? Although eight now, in Ohio the rule is 587 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,839 Speaker 1: a child under the age of ten is presumed incompetent 588 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 1: to testify. Now, if a judge does what they call 589 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: a border of that potential witness and determines that the 590 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,760 Speaker 1: young person does know the difference between telling the truth 591 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: and telling a lie. It's possible that the judge could 592 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 1: permit the testimony, but boy, any defense attorney are going 593 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: to fight like crazy to keep something like that out. 594 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 1: It comes down to the reliability. Is it a reliable statement? 595 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: Can you rely on something that a three year old 596 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,359 Speaker 1: saw and something that an eight year old years after 597 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: the fact is trying to explain. It's tough, not impossible 598 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: to get a statement like that in, but I think 599 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: highly unlikely. Mike Allen points it out a compelling entry 600 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,360 Speaker 1: in one of the discovery documents that implies another piece 601 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: of the evidentiary puzzle. Is there one piece of evidence 602 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: just based on what you've seen in terms of the 603 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:22,280 Speaker 1: discovery list, that is the AHA or something that really 604 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,280 Speaker 1: surprised you. Yeah, there's definitely one thing, says trash poll 605 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: from June eighth, twenty and seventeen, and that can only 606 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: mean one thing that DNA is involved in this case. 607 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,439 Speaker 1: What a trash poll is is when somebody sets their 608 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,399 Speaker 1: trash out at the curb, they do not have a 609 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:47,760 Speaker 1: privacy interest anymore in that trash. So it's open season 610 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: for the police if they want to go rooting through 611 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: somebody's trash and that's how in many instances, that's how 612 00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:00,439 Speaker 1: law enforcement gets DNA evidence is from trash polls. That's 613 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 1: the thing that closes the deal, right, that that like 614 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: closes the case essentially, that's the part of the CSI 615 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: thing that you know, jurors watch and that's one thing 616 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,399 Speaker 1: that's accurate. I mean, if it gets into evidence, it's 617 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:19,839 Speaker 1: it's just devastating. Another revelation we're likely to witness at 618 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,360 Speaker 1: the trial is more information about the rodents autopsy reports. 619 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: Though the documents were released months after the murders in 620 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, they were heavily redacted due to a gag 621 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: order imposed by the judge on the case. This is 622 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,280 Speaker 1: just a situation where, you know, the trial judge, who 623 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: has to shepherd these trials through fairly doesn't want the 624 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 1: public getting this information before trial. One of the reasons 625 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 1: being you don't want a tainted jury pool, and of 626 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,399 Speaker 1: course the prosecution they don't want to telegraph anything from 627 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: that autopsy with respect of their strategy. Reporter James Pilcher 628 00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,319 Speaker 1: told us what journalists were able to glean from the 629 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,240 Speaker 1: initial really he basically laid out where they were found, 630 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 1: how many times they were shot. You know, where they 631 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:09,399 Speaker 1: were shot, and you know they did list specifically where 632 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: the kids, the young kids were found. So what can 633 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,399 Speaker 1: we expect from the full reports. A good autopsy, I'll 634 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: tell you a lot about how the victim lived and 635 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 1: how they died and gets a pivotal critical piece of 636 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 1: the investigation and possibly reveal information that maybe only the 637 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: killer would know. But the most powerful part of the 638 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: state's case could come from the prosecutor's recreation of the 639 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: events of April twenty first, twenty sixteen. According to forensics 640 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 1: expert Joseph Morgan, this narrative helps give a voice to 641 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 1: each member of the slain family. It's something that we'll 642 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,840 Speaker 1: be revealing in real time as the trials for Billy 643 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 1: Angela and George Wagner proceed. In the case of the 644 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: Masker in Piked and every single human remain every body 645 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:09,280 Speaker 1: that was there has an individual tale to be told. 646 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,279 Speaker 1: The prosecution is trying to paint a picture here, and 647 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 1: they're going to do that through these bodies there. That's 648 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 1: going to be the vessel they're going to travel through here. 649 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: And the more vibrant that the prosecution can make that picture, 650 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:26,760 Speaker 1: the more effective it shocks the conscience of just people 651 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 1: that go about their normal day life. They don't expect 652 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: this type of thing to happen and it is pure. 653 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:43,319 Speaker 1: More on that next time. For more information on the 654 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,840 Speaker 1: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie 655 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: Underscore Studios. The Pikedon Massacre Returned to Pike County is 656 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:55,240 Speaker 1: executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing 657 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:59,320 Speaker 1: and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional producing 658 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: by Jeff Andrew Becker and Chris Graves. The piked In 659 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 1: Massacre Returned to Pike County is a production of iHeartRadio 660 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 1: and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the 661 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 662 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:14,240 Speaker 1: favorite shows.