WEBVTT - How To Be a Bitcoin Maximalist with Pete Rizzo 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.240 Hello, and welcome back to another episode of the Mark 0:00:02.360 --> 0:00:05.040 Moa Show, where we talk about the decentralized revolution, the 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:07.360 way the world is changing right before our very eyes, 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:11.080 moving from centralization to decentralization. We look at it through 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:14.680 the lens of politics, finance, and technology. Of course, that 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:18.520 technology is bitcoin. It's given us the decentralized technology to 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:21.640 transition the world. I'd like to bring to you some 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:24.400 education to change the way you think about these things. 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:26.400 Some of the latest breaking news each and every week, 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:29.120 so we're up to date on what's going on, and 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:31.600 I try to bring some interesting guests. You don't have 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:33.360 to listen to me all the time, and that is 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:35.880 exactly what we have for you in store. Right now, 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.640 I'm joined in the studio by Pete Rizzo. He is 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:42.640 the editor at Bitcoin magazine and he's also a contributor 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:45.879 of Forbes as well. Um, anyway, Pete, thanks so much 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.440 for joining me today. Mark Awsome gonna be here excited 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:53.880 to chat. Yeah, man, that was so cool. Uh. We 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:57.360 did the Bitcoin two conference and work the news desk 0:00:57.440 --> 0:00:59.480 there and you hosted the desk. I gotta sit on 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:01.040 the desk with you. Those super funds and now we're 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:04.119 going to reverse the roles. I guess, yeah, roll roll reverse, 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:07.640 and I love it. Yeah. So you know, UM, I 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:11.080 talked about the way this world is changing. Um, I 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:13.920 talked about it through the lens, like I said, of politics, finance, technology, 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:18.039 the technology. In my opinion, I was on a spaces 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:20.560 the other day and someone asked I was asking about 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:23.680 Radialio's new book and the Changing World Order, and UM 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:25.440 asked me to comment on what he got right and 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:27.959 what he got wrong. And I said, Man, the book's amazing. 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:30.280 He had his like whole hedge fund, you know, research 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:32.240 team do it, and there's more data in there you 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:34.160 could ever ever see. And I love the book and 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:36.479 everyone should read the book. But in my opinion, there's 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:40.920 this glaring omission where he talked about from a two 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:43.960 or fifty year political cycle and how democracies rise and fall, 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:46.800 empires rise and fall. I talked about the financial markets, 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:49.760 long term debt cycles, eighty year dat cycles, etcetera. But 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:52.800 he missed the technology piece. And I'm like, man, all 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:56.120 of history, it's technology that changes the world more than anything, 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:59.640 whether it was the stirrup or the gunpowder revolution, or 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:02.920 the printing press or whatever. Right, UM, and so he 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:05.480 missed that, and so I like to focus on bitcoin 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:09.200 being that that that that piece that can change the world. 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:12.560 Do you see it the same way? Definitely? I mean 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:14.919 I like to consider myself a bit of a bitcoin 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:17.200 historian for people who follow me on Twitter. And and 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:19.799 something that I always say as bitcoin is an invention. Right, 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:22.160 So we're used to living in this world where were 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:26.800 saturated with technology and this idea of innovation, and really 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:29.239 I love to, you know, just separate those two words 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:31.600 for people, right, Uh, you know, an innovation, you know 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:34.560 your iPhone fourteen, that's not what happened with bitcoin. Bitcoin 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:37.280 was an invention, and so you know what is that, right? 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:39.920 And an invention to me, as I thought about in 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:42.880 the context the bitcoin is really you know, you're invalidating 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:46.440 a law of the world. Right. So before bitcoin existed, 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:50.880 it was literally impossible for you to send an electronic 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:53.840 peer to peer financial transaction. It just did not exist. 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:57.240 There was no tools for that for that to happen. Right, 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:00.400 money did not exist in a digital set, right. We 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:02.760 had data, we had data transfer, we had the web, 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:05.920 we had all these ways which information moved. And with 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:10.440 bitcoin you have economics and a digital setting and uh, 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:13.239 you know that invention. You know, really what we're talking 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:15.800 about now is how does that invention impact the world? 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:17.720 And right, I think as Mark as you talked about, 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:21.080 you know, the narrative of history is often, you know, 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:25.400 how inventions changed cultures, changed countries. You know, if even 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:28.160 if you go back to America, um, you know the 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:31.760 you're thinking about the Right Brothers right invented flights. Right 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:35.880 before they took off in North Carolina. It was true 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:38.520 that man could not fly. It was it was a 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:42.600 technological impossibility. And from the point where they leave the ground, 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.920 that is inaccurate, right, Like, they actually changed the world, 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:49.840 and and it is possible for men to fly. And 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:51.840 and you know, I love to draw on that example 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:55.240 because you know, people might not know the scientific community 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:57.920 for ten years, you know, refuse to acknowledge the Right 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:00.560 brothers achievement of flight. Right, So this weeks to kind 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.560 of the dissonance that real invention causes. Right when you 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:07.480 actually invent something, usually what you see as a backlash, 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:11.200 a an aggression against this. Right, this can't be done, 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:13.560 it was impossible. And I think bitcoin right now is 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:16.840 like very much in that era, right, it is still 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:20.120 being fought for we saw today the White House come 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:22.360 out and speak about it, and you know they're you know, 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:25.880 not as technologically literate as they could be on the subject. Right, 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:29.520 We're in this period where this invention and this change 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:33.640 of the world is being priced in happening in real time. 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:35.920 And you know, that's to me what makes it so exciting. 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:37.680 But I think you're absolutely right, right this is that 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:40.839 this is a this is a something that could change 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:42.720 the course of where we're going as a country, where 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:45.279 history is going, where people are going. I love that. 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:47.240 I haven't I haven't really thought about in those terms, 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:50.000 but I talked about it kind of similar where I 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:54.640 talk about the difference of new technologies versus technological revolutions. 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:57.479 And so there's a book written that I reference all 0:04:57.520 --> 0:04:59.920 the time. It's the Technological Revolutions in Capital or some 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:02.200 and like that, and they cover there's basically been five 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:06.960 technological revolutions. And so there's industrial revolution, steam engines and railways, 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:12.839 um steel, steel, electricity, oil, automobiles, microprocessors, and they happened 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:17.279 about every fifty years, and so night the microprocessor plus 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:19.400 fifty years is like right now today. And the way 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:20.920 I look at it is like the difference between a 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:23.720 new technology. You reference the iPhone. The iPhone was like 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:25.760 an improvement. We took a phone in a computer, we 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:28.640 put them together. Like that's cool. Um, but a technological 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:32.680 revolution changes the course of humanity and it drives financial 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:37.400 markets and so like obviously like, uh, the Industrial revolution, 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:38.600 we had a machine that could do the work of 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.440 five thousand men. It changed the course of humanity. Um, 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:44.240 the you know steam engines, now we could move stuff 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:47.279 across continents electricity. Right, we don't have to go into 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:49.880 all that automobiles. For all of humanity, people walked and 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:52.800 road horses. And now we maybe say one that I love, 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:55.400 maybe that you wouldn't think of as the telegraph, and 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:57.479 I love this in the context of bitcoine, we're really 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:00.719 prior to digital information being sent at all. You know, 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:05.040 people were sending financial markets data via pigeons. Actually, if 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:06.800 you understand, if you ever go back into like the 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:11.159 sixteen seventeen hundreds, how financial markets interoperated between European states. 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:13.520 You know, you you think of the stock ticker, they 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:17.200 were actually writing down trades, putting them on carrier pigeons. 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:19.600 And the telegraph is really that zero to one, right, 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:21.520 So where where are you getting a you know, you're 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:25.360 talking about invention. Where where's that real step change? Right? 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:27.279 And the step change in that context with the telegraph 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:30.279 is you're going from actually using pack animals to move 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:34.440 information to you sending sound on a wire. And I 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:36.520 think that's a great one because it just really illustrates 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:39.080 just like, how dramatic is that leap? Well, it's it's 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:41.520 it's it's huge. Right, You're really going from just like 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:44.440 a whole other paradigm to a new paradigm. And I 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:47.560 think that's what's so challenging. I think about about bitcoin, right, 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.080 as people aren't used to that change, as you were saying, right, 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.200 we're used to incremental improvements, Like the iPhone four teen 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:57.080 comes out yesterday. What's the difference. It's got a nicer camera, 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:00.760 it's a little bit faster. That's not that's not an invention, right, 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:04.320 it's a it's a small sweek and improvements and innovation, 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:10.040 but really not even in the same category. What about um? 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:12.880 When we have a new invention come out, a new 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:15.640 invention or technological revolution, however you want to call it, um, 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:17.720 we don't know what it is. Humans are horrible at 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:20.920 imagine in the future and so we try to understand 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:22.920 it based off of what we know today. We try 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:24.600 to describe it. Well, it's sort of like this, sort 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:27.600 of like that. So when electricity was first invented, the 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:30.640 killer app was a light bulb, So like, what is 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:33.520 this electricity thing? Well, it's sort of like a digital candle. 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:35.400 What do we need that for? Candles have been light 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:37.360 for five thousand years and look they're portable. It's so 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:40.320 much better and it and it was that, but it 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:42.600 became so much more because it was like a new 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:45.760 building block, right, and like steel, what's steel? Well, it's 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:47.280 like a harder metal. But we didn't know we'd have 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:49.640 a space shuttle one day because of steel. So when 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:52.600 I think about that in terms of bitcoin, you mentioned earlier, 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:55.000 we didn't have like a digital cash before, and sometimes 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:57.080 I think that, like always referring to it as money 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:01.040 money money, money is the first killer application, and like 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:03.920 the light bulb was the first killer application. But do 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:06.600 you think it could becomes a lot more, just as 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:10.760 electricity became more than a digital candle. Absolutely, I mean, 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:12.800 because I think what you're talking about here is, uh, 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:15.800 you know, going back to the communications example of the telegraph, right, 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.120 what did the telegraph allow well, as soon as you 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:21.160 can transport sound by wire, you know, really you think 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:23.840 about the hundreds of years that innovation that came off 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:25.840 of that. You know, when people talk about the Internet, 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:28.320 you know, they'll go back to our bonnet, and you know, 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:30.920 my question was always like why stop there? That's actually 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:33.480 you know, our Purnett was a you know, you're talking 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:36.560 about network computers, which goes back to the computer, which 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:39.120 goes back to really what's the core innovation. The core 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:42.120 thing is you actually being able to send data in 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:45.640 any context, across any distance. And and really, so you 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:48.680 know you think about that communications revolution, it was actually 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:50.960 a lot longer. Right, we've kind of taught ourselves. You know, 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.480 people are used to the nineties, two thousands. You know, 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:56.080 the internet was such a mature technology was disrupting all 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:59.800 these industries. I think with bitcoin, you know, that's the future. 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:04.000 We're definitely you know, we're approaching that, but you know 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:06.200 it's going to be a journey, right, we're really actually 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:08.480 at the early stages of that kind of transition. So 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:10.480 what does it look like. I mean, it looks like 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:14.360 money and markets you know, kind of moving, uh at 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:16.920 the speed of of the Internet and with the mobility 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:20.760 of the Internet and hopefully with more Let's let's let's 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:22.400 come back to that minute. I gotta take a break. 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:24.240 You listen to the Mark Moa Show. We're talking about 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:27.600 the decentralized Revolution. We're talking about technology and how it's 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:29.480 changed through history. I got a whole lot to cover 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:31.199 with Pete Rizzo. When we come back, you don't want 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:33.959 to miss it. We'll be right back. Don't go away, Hello, 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:35.960 welcome back. You were listening to the Mark Moa Show 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:38.520 where we talk about the decentralized revolution, the way the 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.480 world is changing right before our very eyes. Uh, and 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:43.280 we look at it through the lens of politics, finance, 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:47.200 and technology. Of course, that technology is bitcoin. And today 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:49.640 I'm in the studio with Pete Rizzo. He is the 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:52.920 editor at Bitcoin Magazine and contributor for Forbes as well. 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:55.560 And before the break, we're getting into this really cool 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:57.480 conversation that I didn't really expect, but it's one that 0:09:57.520 --> 0:09:59.640 I enjoy. And we're just talking about the way UM 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:03.920 new technology, or specifically UM I call them technological revolutions, 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:07.240 Pete calling them inventions going from zero to one, something 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:10.120 that didn't exist before and now it's here, and how 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:13.079 that changes things. And I was really liking that conversation 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:15.280 that we were in pete um for a minute. Uh 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:17.120 and and before the break we were talking about how 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:21.720 how um because we can't imagine the future as humans, 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:24.440 we just imagine better versions of what we have today 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:28.000 because we don't have the building blocks needed to build 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:31.800 those new things, right. And so also the way we 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:34.280 view things changes. So like one thing, I think about 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:37.280 the Internet, like pre Internet, if if if people thought 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:40.320 about information, you would think probably about the morning newspaper 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:43.440 of the nightly news. But today, like a kid in 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:46.000 Indonesia could post a picture at the beach and now 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:48.920 there's all this information. I see what the weather's like, 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:50.600 I see what the waves are like, I see what 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:51.959 the trees are like, like you know what I mean. 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:55.760 Like the way we think of information has changed. And 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:57.600 and so back to kind of bitcoin, like we look 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:01.400 at it as money, but um, it's really it's a 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:05.280 I think the zero to one is like this decentralization. 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:08.680 And I don't think the whole world needs everything doesn't 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:11.760 need to be decentralized. Money does, right, but almost like 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:14.680 maybe the way we view money might change, and maybe 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:17.800 it's a different set of building blocks that gives us 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:21.920 other things we didn't think of. Well, certainly, a bitcoin, 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:24.440 you know, is a technology, right, so people who are 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:26.640 new to bitcoin as as a subject matter, right, it 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:29.280 is a software. It's an open source software. It's constantly 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:32.480 growing and changing. Because of that, you know, there's always 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:34.960 people kind of trying to figure out where the edge 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:36.760 cases are and what and how they can push the 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:38.560 boundaries of bitcoin. Right, I wrote in one of my 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:41.840 recent articles for for the Bitcoin is, you know theoretically 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:44.360 only limited by human invention. Right. So one of the 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:46.719 exciting things that's going on at the edge bleeding edge 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:49.320 of the development community. You know, they're actually looking at 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:52.880 ways to send US dollars or kind of you know, 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:56.240 uh stable coins they're called, or you know, US dollars 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:59.160 over the bitcoin network. Right. You're actually kind of taking 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:01.240 a certain amount of the data in bitcoin is certain 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:03.199 out of bits of bitcoin, and you're using that to 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:05.880 kind of back something like a dollar. And now you know, 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:08.720 you have the decentralization of bitcoin, right, you kind of 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:11.400 have the hardness of the monetary policy at the base layer, 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:13.920 but now we're actually kind of inventing kind of the 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:16.160 ability to launch and new types of applications right where 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:18.680 you can have new types of assets that travel on 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:21.360 the same network. Right. So, um, kind of what you 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:23.560 were saying. The thing about bitcoin is it's a technology. 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:26.439 It's being built in layers, it's being built by innovators. 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:29.959 And you know, again there's different kind of areas where 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:32.120 this is emerging, right the lightning Now we're kind of 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:34.400 doing the same thing for payments, right, so we're seeing 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:37.359 now kind of uh. You know, bitcoin was the inventions 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:40.439 Tocio Nakamoto created in two thousand nine. It's become this 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:42.920 kind of global sensation for you know, it being a 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:45.360 sound money that people are adopting, and now the developers 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:46.960 are kind of pushing the limits of that. You know, 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:48.360 where is that? And I think that's one of the 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:51.160 most interesting kind of narratives and fault lines in the 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:54.400 industry is you know, how much more is bitcoin going 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:57.000 to change? How much more innovator is gonna push it? 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.120 And then how much you know, our bitcoin holders you know, 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:02.600 going to go along with that process. You know, are 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:04.480 they going to like and use these and support these 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:06.520 inventions or are they going to push back on them? 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:08.120 And I think you know, being someone who watched the 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:11.200 space really closely. You know, those are often kind of 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:13.000 the month to month, a year to year things that 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:16.120 I'm really looking at as you know, how how are 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:19.600 these kind of new technologies, these new emerging use cases 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:22.400 for bitcoin performing and uh, you know what kind of 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.840 data we're getting. You recently put an article on Forbes 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:28.360 about how to be a Bitcoin maximalist, which I want 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:30.720 to dig into. But before we get there, something that 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:32.200 you were just kind of saying. So you're talking about 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:34.160 some of this development and a lot of times one 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:36.040 of you know, one of the one of the biggest 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:38.880 uh you know, pieces of fund or whatever that objections 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:42.160 that we'd hear to bitcoin is it's old technology, right, um, 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.320 but yet we find that it's constantly Uh. I think 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:46.960 new things are being built on top of it. One 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:48.760 of the things you alluded to, I think was like 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:51.480 this new Taro upgrade that's that's coming, or this new 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:54.480 Taro layer two where you could have other types of 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:58.320 assets being built on top of bitcoin, and so you 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:00.760 could transfer other assets like a able coin to your 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:05.280 point um and even like um, potentially if we can 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:07.120 get rid of the laws in the way like uh 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:11.160 could be uh, like equities like stock certificates for example. 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:15.079 And I think about like pre internet days, Um, when 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:16.960 you used to have stock, you would actually get a 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:20.680 stock certificate, it would be a bearer instrument, and then 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:23.200 I could give you that bearer instrument and then you 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:25.720 would have it, and then custody is who has it, 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:28.840 And you could almost have like a stock being back 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:31.360 to like a bearer instrument and trade across like that 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:36.600 tarot Um network. Now um, and and it's back to 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:38.160 a bear instrument. And I guess at the end of 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:40.760 the day, the company that issued the stock could cancel 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:43.120 or whatever, but at least I have that bear instrument. 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:45.600 A lot of people in the bitcoin space, though, seem 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:50.200 to think that any other asset besides bitcoin is uh, 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:51.400 you know, I don't want to say the word on 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:54.440 our radio, but is a scam or whatever? Right, And 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:58.120 it's like, but um, so many what's your overall thought 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:00.720 on that? Well? I think this is one of the 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:04.400 great tensions and dramas of the space, right. I think, obviously, um, 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:07.120 you know, bitcoin is an exciting technology, but again, like 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:09.360 we're talking about kind of where are the limits? Right? 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.320 And I think one of the fascinating things about people 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:13.560 who are even hardcore bitcoiners, you know, we call them 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:16.120 bitcoin maximis. Is you know, they don't live the entirety 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:19.200 of their financial lives currently on bitcoin, right, so many 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:22.640 of them. You know, I joked on a recent podcast that, uh, 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:24.400 you know, I went to a conference that weekend and 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:27.040 it sure looked like everybody was using Uber, right, So 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:29.560 this is a this is an application that does not 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:32.040 accept bitcoin as a payment method. You know, they're not 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:35.560 plugged into the new financial rails, right, So there is 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:38.560 this disconnect. And that's where why I said, you know, yes, 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:41.760 bitcoin is this invention. Yes, theoretically there are no bounds 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:43.680 for bitcoin, right. I think one of the tenants of 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:47.240 bitcoin maximism is that Bitcoin is only limited by human invention. 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:50.080 But you know, I think, um, bitcoin is also a 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:52.800 consensus system. And this is a really hard concept I 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.240 think for for new people to kind of understand, which 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:57.120 is the Bitcoin is a pure to pure network, right, 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:59.960 So when you run the Bitcoin software, when you actually 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.120 join it, you are a note on the network. You're 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:05.760 you know, an operator that is equal to everybody. It's 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.960 everyone else. And that's a very interesting architecture because what 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.880 it requires is that you know, the upgrades then kind 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:14.400 of take place in a way where that architecture is 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:17.760 respected without creating any hierarchy. Right. So you mentioned kind 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:20.440 of the other cryptocurrencies. You know, why are people more 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:23.280 barish on those worlds. It's precisely because they traffic in 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:25.520 these kind of hierarchies, right, they kind of move away 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:28.120 from this peer to peer structure that's the centralization that 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:30.920 you're talking about, uh, into something else right where there's 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:33.760 kind of a built in hierarchy. Or you know, they'll 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:36.360 kind of say that they're adding features or they're adding 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:39.400 adding specialization, but you know, they're moving away from the 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:43.040 data structure the bitcoin has. And I think you know, um, 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:46.160 but that said, bitcoin ers or people who are using bitcoin, 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.520 we do have to support and further these different networks 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:51.880 on top of bitcoin if we want them to continue. So, 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:54.120 you know, I wrote this piece on bitcoin maximism, which 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:56.400 I think laid out you know what I consider the 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:58.920 principles of bitcoin, you know, and I think one of 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.320 them is this idea at um. You know, we should 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:04.320 want to continue to advance bitcoin, right, we should want 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:07.160 to continue to bring ideas that we see elsewhere, uh 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:10.639 and bring them into the into the bitcoin economy. Um. 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:13.760 But you know, again this is uh a consensus system. Right. 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:17.040 So some people like the fact that bitcoin is hard money. 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:19.520 They like the fact that it's censorship resistant, they like 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:21.800 the fact that no one can sees it, and they 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:23.800 like the fact that because you know, as the number 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:27.359 of users goes up, uh, you know, their bitcoin is 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:30.320 going to become more valuable. Right. So, um, in some 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:34.000 some ways these people are a bit disincentivized from these 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:37.040 new things, right, So there is this natural tension, right 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:39.040 And as as a storyteller, somebody who is you know, 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:41.240 more of a journalist, I think one of the more 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.480 fascinating subjects in the space is really this fault line, right, 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:47.040 you know, if bitcoin, if it is true bitcoin and 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:48.840 expand to do all these things, and if you know, 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:51.960 we are the ones who are essentially limiting it, you 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.440 know how far, how farbably we want to push it? 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.600 And you know, I think you're alluding to it's that. Um. Yeah, 0:17:57.640 --> 0:17:59.800 there's a group of people who I think, you know, 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.080 they like what bitcoin is today. Let's let's let's let's 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:04.679 take a break right there. I gotta I gotta take 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:06.480 take a break with a good conversation. You listen to 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.000 the Markmas Show. We're talking about the decentralized Revolution. I'm 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:10.880 in the student of Pete Rizzo. We've got a lot 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:12.880 more to go. We can barely stop, so don't go away. 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:15.600 We're gonna be right back. All right, welcome back. You 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:17.600 are listening to the Mark Mos Show. We're talking about 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:21.600 the decentralized revolution, and we're looking at the lens of politics, finance, 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:24.840 and technology. Of course that technology being Bitcoin, which is 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:31.200 the decentralized technology, censorship resistant technology. I'll say that's I'm 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:34.359 in the studio with Pete Rizzo, editor at Bitcoin Magazine, 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:36.320 contributor for his magazine. You can find them on Twitter 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:40.880 at Pete Underscore, Rizzo Underscore and Pete. Right before the break, 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:42.960 before we almost ran out of time, you were talking 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:45.399 about how bitcoin and these bitcoin maximis and like it 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.920 because of certain features it has UM and so to me, 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:51.840 I think about that, right, like I think BI, I 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:54.840 like Bitcoin. I think I think. To me, the revolution 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:59.000 or the invention in your words, is we have technology 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:03.960