1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,240 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of the Mark 2 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Moa Show, where we talk about the decentralized revolution, the 3 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: way the world is changing right before our very eyes, 4 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: moving from centralization to decentralization. We look at it through 5 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: the lens of politics, finance, and technology. Of course, that 6 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: technology is bitcoin. It's given us the decentralized technology to 7 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: transition the world. I'd like to bring to you some 8 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: education to change the way you think about these things. 9 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: Some of the latest breaking news each and every week, 10 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: so we're up to date on what's going on, and 11 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: I try to bring some interesting guests. You don't have 12 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: to listen to me all the time, and that is 13 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 1: exactly what we have for you in store. Right now, 14 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: I'm joined in the studio by Pete Rizzo. He is 15 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: the editor at Bitcoin magazine and he's also a contributor 16 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: of Forbes as well. Um, anyway, Pete, thanks so much 17 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: for joining me today. Mark Awsome gonna be here excited 18 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: to chat. Yeah, man, that was so cool. Uh. We 19 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: did the Bitcoin two conference and work the news desk 20 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: there and you hosted the desk. I gotta sit on 21 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: the desk with you. Those super funds and now we're 22 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,119 Speaker 1: going to reverse the roles. I guess, yeah, roll roll reverse, 23 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: and I love it. Yeah. So you know, UM, I 24 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: talked about the way this world is changing. Um, I 25 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: talked about it through the lens, like I said, of politics, finance, technology, 26 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: the technology. In my opinion, I was on a spaces 27 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: the other day and someone asked I was asking about 28 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 1: Radialio's new book and the Changing World Order, and UM 29 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: asked me to comment on what he got right and 30 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: what he got wrong. And I said, Man, the book's amazing. 31 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: He had his like whole hedge fund, you know, research 32 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: team do it, and there's more data in there you 33 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: could ever ever see. And I love the book and 34 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 1: everyone should read the book. But in my opinion, there's 35 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: this glaring omission where he talked about from a two 36 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: or fifty year political cycle and how democracies rise and fall, 37 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: empires rise and fall. I talked about the financial markets, 38 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: long term debt cycles, eighty year dat cycles, etcetera. But 39 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: he missed the technology piece. And I'm like, man, all 40 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: of history, it's technology that changes the world more than anything, 41 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: whether it was the stirrup or the gunpowder revolution, or 42 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: the printing press or whatever. Right, UM, and so he 43 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: missed that, and so I like to focus on bitcoin 44 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: being that that that that piece that can change the world. 45 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: Do you see it the same way? Definitely? I mean 46 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 1: I like to consider myself a bit of a bitcoin 47 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: historian for people who follow me on Twitter. And and 48 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 1: something that I always say as bitcoin is an invention. Right, 49 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: So we're used to living in this world where were 50 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: saturated with technology and this idea of innovation, and really 51 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 1: I love to, you know, just separate those two words 52 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: for people, right, Uh, you know, an innovation, you know 53 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: your iPhone fourteen, that's not what happened with bitcoin. Bitcoin 54 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: was an invention, and so you know what is that, right? 55 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: And an invention to me, as I thought about in 56 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: the context the bitcoin is really you know, you're invalidating 57 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: a law of the world. Right. So before bitcoin existed, 58 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: it was literally impossible for you to send an electronic 59 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: peer to peer financial transaction. It just did not exist. 60 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: There was no tools for that for that to happen. Right, 61 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: money did not exist in a digital set, right. We 62 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: had data, we had data transfer, we had the web, 63 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: we had all these ways which information moved. And with 64 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: bitcoin you have economics and a digital setting and uh, 65 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 1: you know that invention. You know, really what we're talking 66 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: about now is how does that invention impact the world? 67 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: And right, I think as Mark as you talked about, 68 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: you know, the narrative of history is often, you know, 69 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: how inventions changed cultures, changed countries. You know, if even 70 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: if you go back to America, um, you know the 71 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: you're thinking about the Right Brothers right invented flights. Right 72 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: before they took off in North Carolina. It was true 73 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: that man could not fly. It was it was a 74 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: technological impossibility. And from the point where they leave the ground, 75 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: that is inaccurate, right, Like, they actually changed the world, 76 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: and and it is possible for men to fly. And 77 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: and you know, I love to draw on that example 78 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: because you know, people might not know the scientific community 79 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: for ten years, you know, refuse to acknowledge the Right 80 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: brothers achievement of flight. Right, So this weeks to kind 81 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: of the dissonance that real invention causes. Right when you 82 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: actually invent something, usually what you see as a backlash, 83 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: a an aggression against this. Right, this can't be done, 84 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: it was impossible. And I think bitcoin right now is 85 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 1: like very much in that era, right, it is still 86 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: being fought for we saw today the White House come 87 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: out and speak about it, and you know they're you know, 88 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: not as technologically literate as they could be on the subject. Right, 89 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: We're in this period where this invention and this change 90 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: of the world is being priced in happening in real time. 91 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: And you know, that's to me what makes it so exciting. 92 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: But I think you're absolutely right, right this is that 93 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: this is a this is a something that could change 94 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: the course of where we're going as a country, where 95 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: history is going, where people are going. I love that. 96 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: I haven't I haven't really thought about in those terms, 97 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: but I talked about it kind of similar where I 98 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: talk about the difference of new technologies versus technological revolutions. 99 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: And so there's a book written that I reference all 100 00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: the time. It's the Technological Revolutions in Capital or some 101 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: and like that, and they cover there's basically been five 102 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: technological revolutions. And so there's industrial revolution, steam engines and railways, 103 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: um steel, steel, electricity, oil, automobiles, microprocessors, and they happened 104 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 1: about every fifty years, and so night the microprocessor plus 105 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: fifty years is like right now today. And the way 106 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: I look at it is like the difference between a 107 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: new technology. You reference the iPhone. The iPhone was like 108 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: an improvement. We took a phone in a computer, we 109 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: put them together. Like that's cool. Um, but a technological 110 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: revolution changes the course of humanity and it drives financial 111 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: markets and so like obviously like, uh, the Industrial revolution, 112 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 1: we had a machine that could do the work of 113 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: five thousand men. It changed the course of humanity. Um, 114 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: the you know steam engines, now we could move stuff 115 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 1: across continents electricity. Right, we don't have to go into 116 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: all that automobiles. For all of humanity, people walked and 117 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: road horses. And now we maybe say one that I love, 118 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: maybe that you wouldn't think of as the telegraph, and 119 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 1: I love this in the context of bitcoine, we're really 120 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 1: prior to digital information being sent at all. You know, 121 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: people were sending financial markets data via pigeons. Actually, if 122 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: you understand, if you ever go back into like the 123 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: sixteen seventeen hundreds, how financial markets interoperated between European states. 124 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: You know, you you think of the stock ticker, they 125 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: were actually writing down trades, putting them on carrier pigeons. 126 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: And the telegraph is really that zero to one, right, 127 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: So where where are you getting a you know, you're 128 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: talking about invention. Where where's that real step change? Right? 129 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: And the step change in that context with the telegraph 130 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: is you're going from actually using pack animals to move 131 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: information to you sending sound on a wire. And I 132 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: think that's a great one because it just really illustrates 133 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: just like, how dramatic is that leap? Well, it's it's 134 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: it's it's huge. Right, You're really going from just like 135 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: a whole other paradigm to a new paradigm. And I 136 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: think that's what's so challenging. I think about about bitcoin, right, 137 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: as people aren't used to that change, as you were saying, right, 138 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: we're used to incremental improvements, Like the iPhone four teen 139 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: comes out yesterday. What's the difference. It's got a nicer camera, 140 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: it's a little bit faster. That's not that's not an invention, right, 141 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: it's a it's a small sweek and improvements and innovation, 142 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: but really not even in the same category. What about um? 143 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: When we have a new invention come out, a new 144 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: invention or technological revolution, however you want to call it, um, 145 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: we don't know what it is. Humans are horrible at 146 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: imagine in the future and so we try to understand 147 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: it based off of what we know today. We try 148 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: to describe it. Well, it's sort of like this, sort 149 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: of like that. So when electricity was first invented, the 150 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: killer app was a light bulb, So like, what is 151 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: this electricity thing? Well, it's sort of like a digital candle. 152 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: What do we need that for? Candles have been light 153 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: for five thousand years and look they're portable. It's so 154 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: much better and it and it was that, but it 155 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: became so much more because it was like a new 156 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: building block, right, and like steel, what's steel? Well, it's 157 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: like a harder metal. But we didn't know we'd have 158 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: a space shuttle one day because of steel. So when 159 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: I think about that in terms of bitcoin, you mentioned earlier, 160 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: we didn't have like a digital cash before, and sometimes 161 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: I think that, like always referring to it as money 162 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: money money, money is the first killer application, and like 163 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: the light bulb was the first killer application. But do 164 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: you think it could becomes a lot more, just as 165 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: electricity became more than a digital candle. Absolutely, I mean, 166 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: because I think what you're talking about here is, uh, 167 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: you know, going back to the communications example of the telegraph, right, 168 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: what did the telegraph allow well, as soon as you 169 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: can transport sound by wire, you know, really you think 170 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: about the hundreds of years that innovation that came off 171 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: of that. You know, when people talk about the Internet, 172 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: you know, they'll go back to our bonnet, and you know, 173 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: my question was always like why stop there? That's actually 174 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: you know, our Purnett was a you know, you're talking 175 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: about network computers, which goes back to the computer, which 176 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: goes back to really what's the core innovation. The core 177 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: thing is you actually being able to send data in 178 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: any context, across any distance. And and really, so you 179 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: know you think about that communications revolution, it was actually 180 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: a lot longer. Right, we've kind of taught ourselves. You know, 181 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: people are used to the nineties, two thousands. You know, 182 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: the internet was such a mature technology was disrupting all 183 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: these industries. I think with bitcoin, you know, that's the future. 184 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: We're definitely you know, we're approaching that, but you know 185 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: it's going to be a journey, right, we're really actually 186 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: at the early stages of that kind of transition. So 187 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: what does it look like. I mean, it looks like 188 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: money and markets you know, kind of moving, uh at 189 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: the speed of of the Internet and with the mobility 190 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: of the Internet and hopefully with more Let's let's let's 191 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: come back to that minute. I gotta take a break. 192 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: You listen to the Mark Moa Show. We're talking about 193 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: the decentralized Revolution. We're talking about technology and how it's 194 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: changed through history. I got a whole lot to cover 195 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,199 Speaker 1: with Pete Rizzo. When we come back, you don't want 196 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,959 Speaker 1: to miss it. We'll be right back. Don't go away, Hello, 197 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: welcome back. You were listening to the Mark Moa Show 198 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: where we talk about the decentralized revolution, the way the 199 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: world is changing right before our very eyes. Uh, and 200 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: we look at it through the lens of politics, finance, 201 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: and technology. Of course, that technology is bitcoin. And today 202 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: I'm in the studio with Pete Rizzo. He is the 203 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: editor at Bitcoin Magazine and contributor for Forbes as well. 204 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: And before the break, we're getting into this really cool 205 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: conversation that I didn't really expect, but it's one that 206 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: I enjoy. And we're just talking about the way UM 207 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: new technology, or specifically UM I call them technological revolutions, 208 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: Pete calling them inventions going from zero to one, something 209 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: that didn't exist before and now it's here, and how 210 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 1: that changes things. And I was really liking that conversation 211 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: that we were in pete um for a minute. Uh 212 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: and and before the break we were talking about how 213 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: how um because we can't imagine the future as humans, 214 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: we just imagine better versions of what we have today 215 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: because we don't have the building blocks needed to build 216 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: those new things, right. And so also the way we 217 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: view things changes. So like one thing, I think about 218 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: the Internet, like pre Internet, if if if people thought 219 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: about information, you would think probably about the morning newspaper 220 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 1: of the nightly news. But today, like a kid in 221 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: Indonesia could post a picture at the beach and now 222 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: there's all this information. I see what the weather's like, 223 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: I see what the waves are like, I see what 224 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:51,959 Speaker 1: the trees are like, like you know what I mean. 225 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: Like the way we think of information has changed. And 226 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: and so back to kind of bitcoin, like we look 227 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: at it as money, but um, it's really it's a 228 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: I think the zero to one is like this decentralization. 229 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: And I don't think the whole world needs everything doesn't 230 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: need to be decentralized. Money does, right, but almost like 231 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: maybe the way we view money might change, and maybe 232 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: it's a different set of building blocks that gives us 233 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: other things we didn't think of. Well, certainly, a bitcoin, 234 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: you know, is a technology, right, so people who are 235 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: new to bitcoin as as a subject matter, right, it 236 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: is a software. It's an open source software. It's constantly 237 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: growing and changing. Because of that, you know, there's always 238 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: people kind of trying to figure out where the edge 239 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: cases are and what and how they can push the 240 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: boundaries of bitcoin. Right, I wrote in one of my 241 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: recent articles for for the Bitcoin is, you know theoretically 242 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: only limited by human invention. Right. So one of the 243 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,719 Speaker 1: exciting things that's going on at the edge bleeding edge 244 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: of the development community. You know, they're actually looking at 245 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: ways to send US dollars or kind of you know, 246 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: uh stable coins they're called, or you know, US dollars 247 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: over the bitcoin network. Right. You're actually kind of taking 248 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: a certain amount of the data in bitcoin is certain 249 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 1: out of bits of bitcoin, and you're using that to 250 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: kind of back something like a dollar. And now you know, 251 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: you have the decentralization of bitcoin, right, you kind of 252 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: have the hardness of the monetary policy at the base layer, 253 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: but now we're actually kind of inventing kind of the 254 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: ability to launch and new types of applications right where 255 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: you can have new types of assets that travel on 256 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: the same network. Right. So, um, kind of what you 257 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: were saying. The thing about bitcoin is it's a technology. 258 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,439 Speaker 1: It's being built in layers, it's being built by innovators. 259 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,959 Speaker 1: And you know, again there's different kind of areas where 260 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: this is emerging, right the lightning Now we're kind of 261 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: doing the same thing for payments, right, so we're seeing 262 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,359 Speaker 1: now kind of uh. You know, bitcoin was the inventions 263 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 1: Tocio Nakamoto created in two thousand nine. It's become this 264 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: kind of global sensation for you know, it being a 265 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: sound money that people are adopting, and now the developers 266 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: are kind of pushing the limits of that. You know, 267 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: where is that? And I think that's one of the 268 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: most interesting kind of narratives and fault lines in the 269 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: industry is you know, how much more is bitcoin going 270 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: to change? How much more innovator is gonna push it? 271 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: And then how much you know, our bitcoin holders you know, 272 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: going to go along with that process. You know, are 273 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: they going to like and use these and support these 274 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: inventions or are they going to push back on them? 275 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: And I think you know, being someone who watched the 276 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: space really closely. You know, those are often kind of 277 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: the month to month, a year to year things that 278 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: I'm really looking at as you know, how how are 279 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: these kind of new technologies, these new emerging use cases 280 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: for bitcoin performing and uh, you know what kind of 281 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: data we're getting. You recently put an article on Forbes 282 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: about how to be a Bitcoin maximalist, which I want 283 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: to dig into. But before we get there, something that 284 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: you were just kind of saying. So you're talking about 285 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: some of this development and a lot of times one 286 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: of you know, one of the one of the biggest 287 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: uh you know, pieces of fund or whatever that objections 288 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: that we'd hear to bitcoin is it's old technology, right, um, 289 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: but yet we find that it's constantly Uh. I think 290 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: new things are being built on top of it. One 291 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: of the things you alluded to, I think was like 292 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: this new Taro upgrade that's that's coming, or this new 293 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: Taro layer two where you could have other types of 294 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: assets being built on top of bitcoin, and so you 295 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: could transfer other assets like a able coin to your 296 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: point um and even like um, potentially if we can 297 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: get rid of the laws in the way like uh 298 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: could be uh, like equities like stock certificates for example. 299 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,079 Speaker 1: And I think about like pre internet days, Um, when 300 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: you used to have stock, you would actually get a 301 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: stock certificate, it would be a bearer instrument, and then 302 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: I could give you that bearer instrument and then you 303 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: would have it, and then custody is who has it, 304 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: And you could almost have like a stock being back 305 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: to like a bearer instrument and trade across like that 306 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: tarot Um network. Now um, and and it's back to 307 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: a bear instrument. And I guess at the end of 308 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: the day, the company that issued the stock could cancel 309 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: or whatever, but at least I have that bear instrument. 310 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: A lot of people in the bitcoin space, though, seem 311 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: to think that any other asset besides bitcoin is uh, 312 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to say the word on 313 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: our radio, but is a scam or whatever? Right, And 314 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: it's like, but um, so many what's your overall thought 315 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: on that? Well? I think this is one of the 316 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: great tensions and dramas of the space, right. I think, obviously, um, 317 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: you know, bitcoin is an exciting technology, but again, like 318 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: we're talking about kind of where are the limits? Right? 319 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: And I think one of the fascinating things about people 320 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: who are even hardcore bitcoiners, you know, we call them 321 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: bitcoin maximis. Is you know, they don't live the entirety 322 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: of their financial lives currently on bitcoin, right, so many 323 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: of them. You know, I joked on a recent podcast that, uh, 324 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: you know, I went to a conference that weekend and 325 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: it sure looked like everybody was using Uber, right, So 326 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: this is a this is an application that does not 327 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: accept bitcoin as a payment method. You know, they're not 328 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: plugged into the new financial rails, right, So there is 329 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: this disconnect. And that's where why I said, you know, yes, 330 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: bitcoin is this invention. Yes, theoretically there are no bounds 331 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: for bitcoin, right. I think one of the tenants of 332 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: bitcoin maximism is that Bitcoin is only limited by human invention. 333 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: But you know, I think, um, bitcoin is also a 334 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: consensus system. And this is a really hard concept I 335 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: think for for new people to kind of understand, which 336 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: is the Bitcoin is a pure to pure network, right, 337 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: So when you run the Bitcoin software, when you actually 338 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: join it, you are a note on the network. You're 339 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: you know, an operator that is equal to everybody. It's 340 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: everyone else. And that's a very interesting architecture because what 341 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: it requires is that you know, the upgrades then kind 342 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: of take place in a way where that architecture is 343 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: respected without creating any hierarchy. Right. So you mentioned kind 344 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: of the other cryptocurrencies. You know, why are people more 345 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: barish on those worlds. It's precisely because they traffic in 346 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: these kind of hierarchies, right, they kind of move away 347 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: from this peer to peer structure that's the centralization that 348 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: you're talking about, uh, into something else right where there's 349 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: kind of a built in hierarchy. Or you know, they'll 350 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: kind of say that they're adding features or they're adding 351 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: adding specialization, but you know, they're moving away from the 352 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: data structure the bitcoin has. And I think you know, um, 353 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: but that said, bitcoin ers or people who are using bitcoin, 354 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: we do have to support and further these different networks 355 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: on top of bitcoin if we want them to continue. So, 356 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: you know, I wrote this piece on bitcoin maximism, which 357 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: I think laid out you know what I consider the 358 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: principles of bitcoin, you know, and I think one of 359 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: them is this idea at um. You know, we should 360 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: want to continue to advance bitcoin, right, we should want 361 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 1: to continue to bring ideas that we see elsewhere, uh 362 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: and bring them into the into the bitcoin economy. Um. 363 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: But you know, again this is uh a consensus system. Right. 364 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: So some people like the fact that bitcoin is hard money. 365 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: They like the fact that it's censorship resistant, they like 366 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: the fact that no one can sees it, and they 367 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: like the fact that because you know, as the number 368 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: of users goes up, uh, you know, their bitcoin is 369 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: going to become more valuable. Right. So, um, in some 370 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: some ways these people are a bit disincentivized from these 371 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: new things, right, So there is this natural tension, right 372 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: And as as a storyteller, somebody who is you know, 373 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: more of a journalist, I think one of the more 374 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: fascinating subjects in the space is really this fault line, right, 375 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: you know, if bitcoin, if it is true bitcoin and 376 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: expand to do all these things, and if you know, 377 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: we are the ones who are essentially limiting it, you 378 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: know how far, how farbably we want to push it? 379 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: And you know, I think you're alluding to it's that. Um. Yeah, 380 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: there's a group of people who I think, you know, 381 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: they like what bitcoin is today. Let's let's let's let's 382 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: take a break right there. I gotta I gotta take 383 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: take a break with a good conversation. You listen to 384 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: the Markmas Show. We're talking about the decentralized Revolution. I'm 385 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 1: in the student of Pete Rizzo. We've got a lot 386 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 1: more to go. We can barely stop, so don't go away. 387 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: We're gonna be right back. All right, welcome back. You 388 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: are listening to the Mark Mos Show. We're talking about 389 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: the decentralized revolution, and we're looking at the lens of politics, finance, 390 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: and technology. Of course that technology being Bitcoin, which is 391 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: the decentralized technology, censorship resistant technology. I'll say that's I'm 392 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: in the studio with Pete Rizzo, editor at Bitcoin Magazine, 393 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: contributor for his magazine. You can find them on Twitter 394 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: at Pete Underscore, Rizzo Underscore and Pete. Right before the break, 395 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: before we almost ran out of time, you were talking 396 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 1: about how bitcoin and these bitcoin maximis and like it 397 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 1: because of certain features it has UM and so to me, 398 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: I think about that, right, like I think BI, I 399 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: like Bitcoin. I think I think. To me, the revolution 400 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: or the invention in your words, is we have technology 401 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: that's um centralized, so nobody controls it, US permission lists, etcetera. 402 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: UM and its censorship resistance, so now I can hold 403 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: something that can't be manipulated and nobody can seize it 404 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 1: or steal it from me. But then that's just a 405 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: set of building blocks. If I had if I had 406 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 1: a deck of cards, I can build like a TP 407 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: or like a card house of cards. But if I 408 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: have a set of legos, I can build away different things. 409 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: And so now we have this new building block. We 410 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: can build all types of things, but um the one, 411 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: and I want to protect that. And that's why to me, 412 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: bitcoin is the only um. You know, we we like 413 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: to say, you know, bitcoin not cryptocurrency. None of the 414 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: other cryptocurrencies really have that same level of decentralization or 415 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: censorship resistance that we have with Bitcoin. You were talking 416 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,199 Speaker 1: about like some of these upgrades that happened, and so 417 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: like with other ones like Ethereum, for example, they're going 418 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,120 Speaker 1: to upgrade the network and everyone is forced into that upgrade, 419 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: whereas like with Bitcoin, when they put upgrades into it, 420 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 1: those are soft forks and you're not forced to run 421 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: that new line of code. You could still operate without that. 422 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: So I think that's one difference there. Um yeah, I 423 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: think you know, I just I'll rip off of that. 424 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: I think the fact that bitcoin is a software economy 425 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 1: and a digital economy in which you know, you as 426 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: the user are are you know, it's it's a dine 427 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: in such a way where you can consent into these agreements, right, 428 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: And I think you hit the nail on the head. Uh, 429 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: you know, ethereum going through a big upgrade coming up, 430 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: and you know the reality of of that is, you know, 431 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: whatever kind of new features a upgrade they're promising. You know, 432 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: at the point that they launched that new software, that 433 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 1: is the theorem, right, you have to be running that 434 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: software and if you are not, you effectively don't exist 435 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: from the network, right, anything that you might invested in, 436 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: if you don't go along with that upgrade, Um, you know, again, 437 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: you don't really exist. So again, the I think the 438 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: Bitcoin view is that this kind of amounts to, you know, 439 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,479 Speaker 1: essentially coercion, right. The developers are kind of putting something forward, 440 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: you know, obsensively in the best entrance of users. Uh, 441 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: you know, but Bitcoin kind of confronted this moral crisis 442 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,959 Speaker 1: earlier on essentially took you know, what I thought was, 443 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 1: you know, the longer road and the more legitimate road. 444 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: And it's kind of one of the key building blocks 445 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 1: of why I became someone who was aligned to bitcoin 446 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: because I originally kind of came to the whole industry, 447 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: you know, as a journalist of somebody who was skeptical. Right, 448 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: it was kind of kind of maintained an objective lens. 449 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: I think when I saw that, you know, that was 450 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: a big you know, differentiator to me. Right, it was okay, well, 451 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: you know, not only do we have this technological capability, 452 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: but we're actually going to ask kind of deep philosophical 453 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 1: and moral questions and kind of bake that in the 454 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: foundational layer of bitcoin. Right. But there is a trade off. Right. 455 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,959 Speaker 1: So the trade off is that you know, if you 456 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: want those more advanced technical things like you know, you 457 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: were saying, trading of kind of stocks or like you know, 458 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: kind of equity type assets, you know, those do exist 459 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: in other cryptocurrencies today, right, they just exist in such 460 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: a way where you know, you could say that those 461 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: users you know, do not have the same level of freedom, 462 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: they don't have the same level of you know, rights, 463 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: I guess within that part of protocol. Uh. And I 464 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: think for people who are bitcoiners, people who you know, 465 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: support the idea that you know, we should want economies 466 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 1: in the future to be free from that coercion. They 467 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: look very skeptically at these at these models, right. So 468 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: I'll just say one more thing from the article. You 469 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,199 Speaker 1: know kind of said here the you know, principles of 470 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: bitcoin maximalism, and the first and foremost was, you know, 471 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 1: a commitment to safeguarding bitcoin for future generations. This is 472 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: something that I think a lot of people who are 473 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: new to bitcoin, even the crypto world, it takes them 474 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: so long to grock. There is this understanding and bitcoin 475 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: among the Bitcoin developers that the Bitcoin software is going 476 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 1: to be run in a hundred years time, that we 477 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: expect the people who are operating and running the Bitcoin 478 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: software today will still be able to access that in 479 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: the future. Uh. The other cryptocurrencies, they take a dramatically 480 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,479 Speaker 1: different approach, you know, something like the merge with the Theoryum, 481 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: you don't know that the technology is going to be 482 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: live tomorrow, right, So it speaks to have values disagreement. 483 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: I think it part of partly what I was trying 484 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: to achieve in writing this piece is that, you know, 485 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: I think bitcoin errors, especially peopleho are new and maybe 486 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: don't understand this value set, you know, I think they'll 487 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 1: you know, maybe kind of be more defensive about these things. 488 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: And I say, as somebody who's kind of come to 489 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: the bitcoin perspective, this is just a principal objection. Right, 490 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: There's just no scenario in which Bitcoin would ever be 491 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,199 Speaker 1: kind of facing this situation because our north star, the 492 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,719 Speaker 1: bitcoin north star. Right, we can't assume who is going 493 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: to use bitcoin for what purpose the extremity of their situation. 494 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: You're kidnapped or in a coma, whatever, you want access 495 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: to your money. Right. So Bitcoin treats the design of 496 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: its procol the availability of its software with that level 497 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: of scrutiny. Right. The other cryptocurrencies don't so full stop, 498 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: even just off the bat, no matter what they're adding 499 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: in terms of technical complexity. You know, there is a 500 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: value misalignment where you know, I can say, as somebody 501 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: who keeps the majority of their value and their wealth 502 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 1: within bitcoin. Uh, you know, I wouldn't support a protocol 503 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: that was making those decisions. Um. And I think you 504 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 1: know this is it's important that when we talk about these, 505 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: you know, decisions, that we talked about it from a 506 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: principal first standpoint, because I think otherwise we end up 507 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: kind of looking negative, We end up looking like we're 508 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: rooting for these things to fail. And uh, you know 509 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: I don't come at it from that perspective. I just say, 510 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 1: you know, these are Bitcoin's principles. These are kind of 511 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: the people who I know, like, these are the values 512 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: that they've told me. And you know, you can look 513 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: at these values and then you can look at what 514 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: these other protocols are doing, and you can you should 515 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: be able to see the disconnect. Yeah, I would agree. 516 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: I would agree on that. I mean, well, I think 517 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 1: I think one big thing, so you talk about safeguarding 518 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: bitcoin for a future generations. When I think about bitcoin maximalism, 519 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: I think about trying to keep the message pure, and 520 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: I think, um, so many people are blind because they're 521 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: chasing money and what do you mean, card anals a scam? 522 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 1: Look how much money I made. Okay, so as an 523 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: investment it worked. I mean people make money and ponds 524 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 1: all the time, but they look at it from that lens, 525 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: and I think it blinds them to the actual invention 526 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: that's going on right now. Yeah, this was the one 527 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: as a as a journalist who is trying to be objective, 528 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: I think this is of the things that I encourage 529 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: other journalists to look at right, and I try to 530 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: get them to look at this on the face value 531 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: and the example you just explained, Right, you're having people 532 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: who are investing in something that is pretending to be 533 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: a new currency, and they're telling you that they think 534 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: it is useful because it's worth more in dollars to them, right, 535 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: And and you should be able to see the logical 536 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 1: contradiction in that line of thinking, right. And that was 537 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 1: something that stuck out to me very early on and 538 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: dealing with the bitcoin developers against who came at it 539 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: from this principal approach is that they never asked that. 540 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: They were never valuing bitcoin in those terms. Even you know, 541 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: you talk about the memes and the culture around bitcoin 542 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: and the number go up the people who were safeguarding 543 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: the protocol, that's not how they behaved. They behaved as 544 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: if you know, bitcoin was the most important thing, Safeguarding 545 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: it for the future was most important. They knew that 546 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: it was going to be more valuable in the future, 547 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: and so they took it from that approach. Yeah, And 548 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: I would say, um, you really see that more and 549 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: more with the Bitcoin MAXIMU list, so people that would 550 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: self identify with that, I have a hard time with labels. 551 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 1: But I mean, I guess I would put myself in 552 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: that camp for a couple of reasons. One to your 553 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: point about ideologies, the old you know cliche, if you 554 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: stand for nothing, you fall for anything. So it's like 555 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: they're very they're very principled. But the other thing is 556 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: something that I've been actually we talked to Alex Jones 557 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: about UM, and I've been kind of something I pound 558 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: the table on all the time is the need to 559 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: build these parallel economies. UM. That's really I think when 560 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: I study history, that's really how the USSR came down. 561 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: Everybody left the main economies to build parallel economies. When 562 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 1: it collapsed, it cushioned the blow because now there's these 563 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: you know, black markets set up, and I think, um, 564 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: we can do that, but we need we can set 565 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: up at different education systems, media systems, food systems, health systems, 566 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: but we need a payment technology that allows to do that. 567 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: So bitcoin enables all of that. Without the freedom of payments, 568 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: there's no freedom. And so if you look at bitcoin 569 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: as a parallel monetary system and forget trying to measure 570 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: it in dollars all the time, UM, and I think 571 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: most of the people that would probably identify as a 572 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: Bitcoin maximus have kind of made that leap forward. And 573 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: whether bitcoin sixty eight thousand U S dollars or eight 574 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 1: thousand U S dollars, the censorship resistant payment technology still works. Um. Anyway, 575 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: you're listening to the Markmas Show. We're talking about the 576 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 1: decentralized revolution. Each and every week, we look at it 577 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 1: through the lens of politics, finance, and technology. Today we're 578 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 1: really hitting on the technology, which of course is bitcoin. 579 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: I'm in the studio with Pete Rizzo. He is the 580 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: editor at Bitcoin Magazine, contributor at Forbes as well. He 581 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: just brought an article on Forbes and it's titled how 582 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,159 Speaker 1: to be a Bitcoin Maximalist, and we're digging into that. 583 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: What does that mean? UM? Are you that? Are you 584 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: somebody who's repulsed by that? We'll be back with that 585 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: and more in a minute. You don't want to miss it, 586 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: don't go away. I'll be right back, all right, Welcome back. 587 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: You are listening to the markma Show. We talk about 588 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: the decentralized revolution each and every week, looking at it 589 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: always through the lens of politics, finance, and technology. So 590 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: you can understand you have better context to what's going 591 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 1: on in the world today. Of course, the technology piece 592 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: being bitcoin and the decentralized technology, censorship resistant technology that 593 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: gives us. I mean this dudio with Pete Rizzo Eder 594 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,360 Speaker 1: a bitcoin magazine and contributor at Forbes magazine, and we're 595 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: talking about an article he just put on Forbes. You 596 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,199 Speaker 1: should go check it out. It's titled how to be 597 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: a Bitcoin Maximalist, which is sure to um rub a 598 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 1: lot of people in a bunch of different directions for 599 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,680 Speaker 1: a bunch of different reasons. But he kind of breaks 600 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: it down and what it is. And one of the 601 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 1: things we're just talking about is people who want to 602 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: safeguard bitcoin for future generations. Um talking about safeguarding you 603 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: had mentioned earlier, um what the White House was talking 604 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: about today and this the new Biden's Executive Order on 605 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: Energy and um Man, they really want to be coming 606 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: for proof of work, it seems like, um which of 607 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: course is directly an attack on bitcoin. And so do 608 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: you think two point number one safeguarding bitcoin like bitcoin 609 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: maximalist would be the ones then going and kind of 610 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: trying to educate politicians and challenge that, trying to uphold that. Yeah. Absolutely, 611 00:28:58,320 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: And I put as one of the principles you know, 612 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: is upholding you know, advocating for bitcoin mining by any 613 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: and all means. Right, So people who are bitcoin maximus 614 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: to me, right, there are people who are going to uh, 615 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,719 Speaker 1: you know, essentially understand that proof of work is essential 616 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: to the operation of the bitcoin network. Right. We know 617 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: of no alternatives you know that can can currently uh 618 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: you know, operate an economy and the way that proof 619 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: of work allows, right, it's the only consensus method that 620 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,719 Speaker 1: exists by with which anyone, uh you know in the world, 621 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: you know, can you know, compete for the new currency 622 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: issues within that economy in a free market where there 623 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: isn't barriers to entry imposed by any other group. And 624 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: I think this is one of the biggest differentiations, you know, 625 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: especially as the White House looks at this, and I 626 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: hope they explore more. Is essentially, you know, if you 627 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: look at kind of the other approaches within cryptocurrency or 628 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: even in fiat economies, right, essentially, you know, access to 629 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: new money printing, you know, there's always some barriers that 630 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: by someone right in the fiat system, you know, essentially 631 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: banks are printing money and that's being they're being sent 632 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,959 Speaker 1: to banks to be issued as a low to consumers. Right, 633 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: that is how new money enters that economy. In the 634 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: kind of other new cryptocurrency networks, you know, often they're 635 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: kind of setting a barrier where within the protocol itself, 636 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: so within the actual software, you know, you need to 637 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: hold a certain amount of the currency. You have, need 638 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: to have a certain amount of capital, you know, to 639 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: be to be able to compete or to be able 640 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: to kind of win a share of this new issue one. 641 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: So again kind of going back to kind of square one, 642 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:26,959 Speaker 1: the bitcoin maximums. The person who comes at it from 643 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: a Bitcoin perspective, you know, they're going to advocate for 644 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: the system, you know, whereby anyone anywhere in the world 645 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: who is capable of generating electricity and or empowering that 646 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: and adding that to the bitcoin network can compete for 647 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: the issues. Right, that's the breakthrough here, right there just 648 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: isn't another system by which you can potentially distribute new 649 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: money and economy into an economy, into anyone in the 650 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: world anywhere, without knowing anything about them, without restricting them 651 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: in any way. So I think people focus on the 652 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: energy component, when really that's the wrong way to look 653 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: at it. The right way to look at it is 654 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: through this lens of you know, what kind of economy 655 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: do you want to have? Do you want to have 656 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: an economy where some people are advantaged or do you 657 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,719 Speaker 1: want to have an economy where everyone can compete, everyone 658 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: has the ability to. You might be saying, oh, well, hey, 659 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: I don't mind bitcoin, but look, the reality is you can. 660 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: You could. You could go out and buy a mining machine, 661 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: buy a mining plug it in uh and the price 662 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: that you pay for that minor and the price that 663 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: you pay for that electricity, both of those factors are 664 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: going to be set by the market, just people buying 665 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: and selling goods within the market. Right. In every other 666 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: instance where you where you would try to do that 667 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: in an economy, that same structure does not work. You 668 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: know you're gonna go out and buy another mining rig 669 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: for another type of cryptocurrency, well, good luck. There might 670 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: be a set of rules or barriers imposed on you 671 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: by that protocol. So again, I think they're fundamentally different 672 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: types of systems. And with proof of work, I always 673 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: think it goes back to the distribution, right and that 674 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: and people I think in bitcoin they like to draw 675 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: this connotation with you know, work and fairness, and if 676 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: you're the one who is able to do the work, 677 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: you should be able to reap the awards. And that 678 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: couldn't contrast more with the kind of capitalist system we 679 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: have right now, whereas it is your proximity to the 680 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 1: institutions that that determines, you know, your ability to get 681 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: the new issuments within the economy. Yeah. I the more 682 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: that we talked about talk through this, the more I 683 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: just kind of keep going back to the difference of 684 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: a bitcoin maximalist versus a crypto enthusiast is just the ideology. 685 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: I just kind of keep going back to that, right, 686 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: Like I get all these different emails in my inbox 687 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: every day, and I constantly get these ones like, oh, 688 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: the next bitcoin. You know, I'm selling all my bitcoin 689 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: because I found this another, this next one that's going 690 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: to do better for me. But they all approach it 691 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: from an investment angle. They're all trying to approach these 692 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: other cryptocurrencies as to how much money they can make. UM. 693 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: I went to a consensus in UM Austin this year. UM. 694 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: I didn't actually attend the event, but I was in 695 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: Austin and I went to some of the after events 696 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,239 Speaker 1: and whatnot. And when you're at a bitcoin event, you know, 697 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 1: like everybody's there's like freedom minded. They're there for you know, 698 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: censorship reasis in these these types of things. Um. And 699 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: I was at this after event and I'm like looking 700 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: around all these people, I'm like, who are all these people? 701 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: Like why are they here? You know? And I decided 702 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: I was going to ask a couple of them, you know, 703 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: and I was like, what do you think is like, 704 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: what's the most technologically advanced thing that you saw here? 705 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: And someone's like, oh, well, you know. The one guy asked, 706 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: he said, you know, we could do deeds. I'm like, 707 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: what do you mean deeds? He's like, well, I could 708 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: put my mortgage on a blockchain. I was like okay. 709 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: And then like another person is like, oh well video games. 710 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: I'm like, do video games need to be like censorship resistant? 711 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Um? And So it's really 712 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: that ideology. Well, I think for me as a journalist 713 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: coming into the space, you know, and I tried to 714 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: use this experience, is like we were so overwhelmingly biased 715 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: and encouraged towards a bias. We were looking at it 716 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: as a frame through technology. So you mentioned census, you know, 717 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: I happened to be one of the original journalists over 718 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: at coined Desk and really even just the founding mission 719 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: of coined US, but puts on the consensus conference was 720 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: essentially like b Tech Crunch for bitcoin. That was essentially 721 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: kind of the motto. There was this idea that you know, 722 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 1: we were covering kind of this exciting new technology, this 723 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: technology was going to do all these things, was about startups, 724 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 1: it was about growth. It was kind of applying these 725 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: old ideologies to bitcoin, and people totally missed the values conversation, right. 726 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 1: And I think that's why bitcoin maximalism really always always 727 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 1: appealed to me, is because I was somebody who was 728 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: the same vortex you're talking about of these you know, 729 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: gross cryptocurrency conferences where there's investors kind of shilling this 730 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 1: or that and founders shilling this or that. Um, you know, 731 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 1: I became very disconnected with this, and you know, you 732 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 1: think about, you know, what our journalists trying to do. Ultimately, 733 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: journalists are people who are biased towards trying to inform 734 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 1: the public for the greater good, right, And essentially, you know, 735 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: once I understood bitcoin and the value system that it had, 736 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 1: and of course you know that that took a great 737 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: deal of you know, my own kind of personal time 738 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: and attention to kind of kind of tease this out right. 739 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are coming to the 740 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: industry today. It's a lot easier for you to understand 741 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: why bitcoin is a different values to the other cryptocurrencies. 742 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: It wasn't always the case, right, But again for me, 743 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 1: it was kind of really trying to dig in there. 744 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,280 Speaker 1: And you know, often you see that the value system 745 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 1: within these other cryptocurrencies is you know, oh well, I 746 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 1: just want to build the next big app. I want 747 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: to have the big next startup. I want to have 748 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: the next big thing that exits. Right. There isn't an 749 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: actual fundamental you know, value there, whereas with the bitcoine 750 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: Maximus that I remember, you know, the old developers are 751 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,919 Speaker 1: talking to the court developers. It was I remember, there's 752 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: a there's a famous pitcoin developer. I only had had 753 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,359 Speaker 1: a chance to ask him one question. I only met 754 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: him one time, Greg Maxwell. He's probably one of the 755 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 1: most legendary developers, and I, you know, I asked him, 756 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,439 Speaker 1: I said, hey, you know, do you do you uh, 757 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: you know, does it matter to you if bitcoin succeeds 758 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 1: within your lifetime, right, And what I was really trying 759 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: to get forward with that question was, you know, this 760 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: was kind of at a time of upheaval and uncertainty 761 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: and kind of change in the industry. He just said 762 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 1: one word answer was just no. Right. He basically looked 763 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: at me and said, you know, and and it it 764 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: told me everything that I think I was looking for 765 00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: that answer. You know, I wanted someone to kind of 766 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,840 Speaker 1: affirm kind of what I knew already. But you know, 767 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: in that moment, I think what I got from that 768 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: interaction was essentially, this is an individual who really understands 769 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: and is so committed to kind of the bedrock ideology 770 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: of this. You know, we need a non state money system. 771 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 1: This is something that's so worthy of being created that 772 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: you know, any sacrifice is worth it in order to 773 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: and started to ensure you know that this creation, this invention, uh, 774 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: you know, reaches its full potential um And I just 775 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 1: such an a powerful and important moment for me. I think, Yeah, 776 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: what a good point that you make. And you know, 777 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: you look back at some of the greatest things that 778 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,360 Speaker 1: have been built in the world, from the pyramids to 779 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: the castle's cathedrals, those things could take two, three, four, 780 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,479 Speaker 1: five hundred years, which could spend multiple generations of people 781 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: who would never see their work completed. And so as 782 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: we continue to build that time preference where we want 783 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: to work till there's higher value things like bitcoin, maybe 784 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 1: we can return to that that period of greatness again. 785 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 1: And I think as you come into bitcoin um, eventually 786 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: the ideology will change you and it starts to change 787 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: age all areas of your life. We see that over 788 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: and over. You've been listening to the Mark Moa show. 789 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,399 Speaker 1: We talk about the decentralized revolution, the way the world 790 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: is changing before our very eyes through the lens of politics, finance, 791 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: and technology in the studio with Pete Rizzo. Give him 792 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: a follow on Twitter at Pete Underscore, Rizzo Underscore and 793 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: check them out at Bitcoy Magazine and Forbes. That's what 794 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 1: we got. Thanks for listening,