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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease, the so called Long Island

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Speaker 1: serial killer. The headlines just keep pouring from leaks and

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Speaker 1: various news outlets. We are learning that his very first

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Speaker 1: question to jailhouse awardens is quote, is it in the news.

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Speaker 1: That's what he's worried about. Apparently so this as we

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Speaker 1: also learned that two storage units, not one, but two.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if his wife knew about those being searched meticulously.

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Speaker 1: As it comes to light that a secret basement room

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Speaker 1: was padlocked and heavily guarded by the so called Long

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Speaker 1: Island serial killer, Rex Sheerman. I'm Nacy Grace. This is

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at

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Speaker 1: Foxination and Serious XM one eleven. First of all, take

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Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at crimeonline dot com.

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Speaker 2: Interior designer Catherine Shepherd worked with suspected serial killer Rex

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Speaker 2: Harriman over a period of five years. She had become

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Speaker 2: friends with the architect and he even took her to

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Speaker 2: a firing range in Brooklyn and taught her how to

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Speaker 2: fire a nine millimeter handgun. In two thousand and five,

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Speaker 2: Shepherd was called to help Harriman with renovation project at

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Speaker 2: his home in Massive Eakleod Park. He was planning to

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Speaker 2: renovate the kitchen, but he wanted precise measurements of the

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Speaker 2: entire home. Harriman followed her from room to room as

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Speaker 2: she measured, and followed her downstairs. Shepherd told The Daily

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Speaker 2: Mail that quote in the basement there was this one

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Speaker 2: room that was locked, and he said, I couldn't go

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Speaker 2: into that room.

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Speaker 3: Couldn't go into that room.

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Speaker 1: Why you've asked people to come in redo your home,

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Speaker 1: but you refuse adamantly not to allow them into one

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Speaker 1: room just to get the specs. You know, how high

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Speaker 1: the door is, how why the room is, how long

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Speaker 1: the room is?

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Speaker 3: Why?

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Speaker 1: What did he keep in that room? He wanted no

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Speaker 1: one to ever see again. Thanks for being with us

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Speaker 1: here at Phlox Nation series six sem one eleven with

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Speaker 1: me an all star panel to make sense of what

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Speaker 1: we are learning literally by the minute, but for a

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Speaker 1: straight out to Kristin Thorne, investigative reporter with WABC Channel

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Speaker 1: seven Eyewitness News. She's also the star of Hulu's true

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Speaker 1: crime show Missing Kristin, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 3: What's the latest?

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Speaker 4: So you talked about the storage units, they'd say that's

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Speaker 4: one of the biggest things that we saw yesterday. There

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Speaker 4: was an additional unit that they responded to law enforcement.

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Speaker 4: These units are about too maybe a seven minute drive

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Speaker 4: from his house. There a massive Peopua park, so we're

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Speaker 4: seeing them pull a lot of things still out of

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Speaker 4: the house. We saw them take out a childlike doll

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Speaker 4: that was in this glass case and that a lot

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Speaker 4: of people have been focusing in on that. We certainly

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Speaker 4: want to know more about that two hundred done.

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Speaker 1: Hold on, Kristin, I want to follow up on something

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Speaker 1: you just said. Kristen Thorn is with me investigative reporter,

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Speaker 1: very well respected, I might add, from WABC and star

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Speaker 1: off missing on Hulu. Doctor Bethany Marshall, I can't believe

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Speaker 1: you didn't just jump on Kristen's back and just ride

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Speaker 1: her around the studio when you heard this about that

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Speaker 1: life size doll. Guys, Doctor Bethany Marshall is with me

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Speaker 1: psychoanalyst out of Beverly Hills at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany, you heard what Kristin Thorne just said about

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Speaker 1: that life size doll and it was encased in glass

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Speaker 1: and a wooden type frame. Who cares? I care and

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you why, because of all of his searches

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Speaker 1: up to the time. He was arrested for child porn.

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Speaker 1: And I don't mean just child porn. I mean child

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Speaker 1: porn where the little girls have like black eyes and

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Speaker 1: they're crying.

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Speaker 3: It's awful.

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Speaker 1: And then he has this life sized doll of a

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Speaker 1: little girl, a replica doll Nancy.

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Speaker 5: This is so creepy. It reminds me of PTK killer

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Speaker 5: because remember she took so many pictures of himself drest

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Speaker 5: in lee text with high heeled can you stick.

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Speaker 1: I'm not judging doctor Bathony, but I draw the line

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Speaker 1: when he puts on the victims close or.

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Speaker 5: What was the killer who actually up put makeup on

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Speaker 5: the victim dead?

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Speaker 3: Bundy.

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Speaker 1: They would bathe them, do their hair and put on

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Speaker 1: their makeup after they're dead.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 5: But also the girl that worked at the coffee shop,

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Speaker 5: remember the coffee keyp Oh.

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Speaker 1: You're referring to Israel Keys and Samantha Koenig. Yeah, she

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Speaker 1: had her eyes stitched open, makeup and hair done.

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Speaker 6: That's right.

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Speaker 5: So what I see in all these crimes, and I

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Speaker 5: think what happened with Irman Hermann is that sometimes the

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Speaker 5: setishized sexual interest in the victim persists long after the

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Speaker 5: victim is dead. They continue to toy with the victim,

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Speaker 5: maybe masturbate on the victim a cost the victim, sexually

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Speaker 5: put makeup on the victim. But what happens when they

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Speaker 5: don't have a victim, because you may not always have.

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Speaker 4: Access to one.

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Speaker 5: Maybe they're trying to find one, or they want one

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Speaker 5: to photograph, toy with, have sex with. The dolls seem

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Speaker 5: to be some kind of a substitute, I think for

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Speaker 5: this fetishized interest in children. And remember we've been talking

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Speaker 5: about the fact that his sexual proclivities seem to become

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Speaker 5: more and more and more extreme. And if we think

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Speaker 5: about all of this as a part of the masturbatory ritual.

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Speaker 1: You know what, doctor Arbeth and eight, you're concerned about

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Speaker 1: him masturbating. If that's my concern, I'd be worried about

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Speaker 1: every man in the United States and worldwide.

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Speaker 3: Forget the US.

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Speaker 1: I'm more worried about his trail of dead bodies. And

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Speaker 1: you know what else, Kristin Thorn with me from WABC.

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Speaker 1: I didn't even let you sor get through all the knees,

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Speaker 1: but I certainly want to circle back, Kristen whenever you're

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Speaker 1: ready to talk about his very extensive property portfolio across

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Speaker 1: several states that is bordering on a one million dollar portfolio.

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Speaker 1: And I know that he owns property in South Carolina

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Speaker 1: and Vegas. In fact, Jackie and I immediately said, oh,

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Speaker 1: South Carolina, that is a place you could hide a

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Speaker 1: dead body and nobody would ever find it. But then

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Speaker 1: Jackie pointed out Vegas because there's so many transients, there's tourists,

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Speaker 1: there's hookers, there's models. People could go missing there and

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Speaker 1: completely get lost in the sauce. And it's so close

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Speaker 1: to the desert. He's going to go look in the

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Speaker 1: desert for a dead body nobody.

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Speaker 4: So she's right, And Nancy, the aerial view of the

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Speaker 4: South Carolina property is massive. It's surrounded by wood. Las Vegas.

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Speaker 4: I actually reached out to their police department yesterday on

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Speaker 4: the phone and said, are you researching whether he may

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Speaker 4: be involved with anything there? He has a property there.

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Speaker 4: And Nancy, I have to tell you about this deposition

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Speaker 4: that I found from him from twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 1: Okay, White a minute, hold on, there's a twenty seventeen deposition.

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Speaker 3: I'm so happy, go ahead. I don't even know what

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Speaker 3: it is yet, Go ahead.

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Speaker 4: He has a series of four civil lawsuits that he

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Speaker 4: filed in twenty fourteen. Two of those are related to

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Speaker 4: an accident that people hit him, he says, with their cars,

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Speaker 4: and two are involving people that he says hit them

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Speaker 4: him as he was walking, as he was a pedestrian.

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Speaker 4: In one of those depositions, which is just great from

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Speaker 4: twenty seventeen, he starts to detail a lot about his

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Speaker 4: family that he lived at that house and has lived

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Speaker 4: there his whole life, that he lived there with his

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Speaker 4: wife and his daughter and his step son. But another

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Speaker 4: thing that's very interesting. At the end of the deposition,

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Speaker 4: the deposer asked him when was the last time you traveled,

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Speaker 4: and he talks about going to Las Vegas, and the

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Speaker 4: diposer asks him what were you doing there? Were you

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Speaker 4: going to see friends, college friends? And he says, well,

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Speaker 4: I just know some people out there. And the deposer

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Speaker 4: continues because they're trying to ask him about his injuries

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Speaker 4: that he suffered from this accident from getting hit by

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Speaker 4: a car, and he says, well, what exactly were you

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Speaker 4: doing out there? And he says the deposer says, was

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Speaker 4: it a pleasure trip, and he said you could put

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Speaker 4: it that way. And when I read that, I almost

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Speaker 4: immediately got off what I was reading this document and

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Speaker 4: called the Las Vegas Police Department, because we know.

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Speaker 5: What happens in Las Vegas.

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Speaker 4: We know why many people enjoy going.

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Speaker 7: To Las Vegas, and.

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Speaker 4: I think that for someone like Rex Sherman, who we

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Speaker 4: have now developed a sense of who he may be,

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Speaker 4: it does raise questions about what may have happened in

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Speaker 4: Las Vegas. He's had that property there since two thousand

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Speaker 4: and five. He bought it with his wife. But he

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Speaker 4: also says in the deposition Nancy that his wife did

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Speaker 4: not come with him to Law Vegas, and the deposer

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Speaker 4: asked him that specifically.

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Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace, everybody on the panel, let's

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Speaker 1: brainstorm about this. First to Chris mcdunna joining me. I

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Speaker 1: found him on his YouTube channel, The Interview Room. But

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Speaker 1: he's also the director of the Cold Case Foundation at

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Speaker 1: Colcase Foundation dot org. Former homicide detective, over three hundred

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Speaker 1: homicides under his belt. Chris, when she first said pleasure

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Speaker 1: trip to Vegas, my fingertips actually now my legs are

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Speaker 1: doing it got tingles and I'm telling you when I

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Speaker 1: know doctor Bethany, just dtor Bethany, just hold on one minute.

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Speaker 1: When you are obsessed and fixated on something, that is

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Speaker 1: what you take pleasure. And Bethany and I were talking yesterday.

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Speaker 1: My thing is unsolved homicides, missing people, and first and

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Speaker 1: foremost my twins, John David Lucy. That gives me so

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Speaker 1: much pleasure. When I feel that I've advanced a case

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Speaker 1: that gives me pleasure, I'm happy that I can do

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Speaker 1: that in any way help people take pleasure in that

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Speaker 1: with which they are obsessed.

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Speaker 3: Chris, You've dealt with so many killers.

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Speaker 1: Let's just compare it to Brianger, because that's an easy example.

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Speaker 1: He not only we believe commit and murder. He obsessed

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Speaker 1: on it. He emailed them, he stalked them, he spied

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Speaker 1: on them. His whole life was centered around deriving pleasure

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Speaker 1: from the stalking and then ultimately the murders of these

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Speaker 1: four beautiful Idaho University students.

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Speaker 3: It consumes your life.

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Speaker 1: So when he says, ah, that's just say it's pleasure,

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Speaker 1: that can only mean one thing.

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Speaker 8: You know, Nancy, in this situation with him, the guy

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Speaker 8: from New York, he's obviously a sexual statist, and he's

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Speaker 8: on the hunt. And with Coberger, he was in you know,

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Speaker 8: he was evolving, and so here and here has you know,

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Speaker 8: obviously evolved quite extensively. And what's happening on an investigative

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Speaker 8: side here, Let's take Las Vegas in consideration. As we

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Speaker 8: all know, uh, you know, DNA is is really an

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Speaker 8: important piece of this puzzle here, So everybody's pushing into

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Speaker 8: codis real quickly. There are rapid DNA machines around the

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Speaker 8: country that they're rushing. I can guarantee you there are

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Speaker 8: machines theres that you can get a DNA at least

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Speaker 8: a partial hit.

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Speaker 1: Well, I certainly hope they're rushing to do it, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because you know this, this investigation stalled for so many

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Speaker 1: years for a number of races, which is a whole

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Speaker 1: other can of worms. But that said, I certainly hope

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Speaker 1: you're right they're rushing to make DNA comparisons.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, And it just shows you the power of a

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Speaker 8: new set of eyes, right, I mean, they take another

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Speaker 8: look at this with a new team and long and behold,

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Speaker 8: within a couple of weeks, you know, they're talking about

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Speaker 8: this guy, and so what's happening I think in the

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Speaker 8: bigger picture here is this guy's living out his hunt

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Speaker 8: fantasy in relationship to his next victimology. And so he's

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Speaker 8: traveled around the country and he literally is, you know,

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Speaker 8: looking for that next victim, and you know, we're we're

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Speaker 8: it's going to be interesting to learn about how he

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Speaker 8: does it because he's a compartmentalized type of personality, and

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Speaker 8: the doc can talk about that all day. Evidence of

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Speaker 8: the fact that that room underneath his house in the basement,

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Speaker 8: I think it's going to end up being, you know,

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Speaker 8: some significant torture arena of some sort. And then you

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Speaker 8: look at the fixation of his house that you know,

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Speaker 8: it's stuck in time, and so there's going to be

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Speaker 8: a lot of interesting psychological work and relationship to what

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Speaker 8: we're triggers. And then is there's time patterns that trigger

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Speaker 8: him in relationship to those events, perhaps even when he

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Speaker 8: lost his father at twelve years old, you know, what

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Speaker 8: were those things that he was fixated on during his

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Speaker 8: early adolescens.

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Speaker 1: Me is bernardat Villanova. She is a renowned New York

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Speaker 1: criminal defense attorney. But what I like about her is

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Speaker 1: she is a former prosecutor and you can find her

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Speaker 1: at villainonalaw dot com. BERNARDA, you are hearing Chris McDonough,

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Speaker 1: who really knows what he's talking about, describing what triggered heureman.

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Speaker 1: I don't care what triggered him. I don't care. All

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Speaker 1: day long I hear defendants talk about boohoo, this is

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Speaker 1: why I did it.

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Speaker 3: Don't care.

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Speaker 1: The only remote interest I have and why he did

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Speaker 1: it is it may help me find more crime victims,

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Speaker 1: and I may be able to use that in front

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Speaker 1: of a jury so that the pieces fit together perfectly

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Speaker 1: until they can see the full puzzle picture. That's the

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Speaker 1: only reason I care, because motive doesn't matter. I only

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Speaker 1: care if it will show me some evidence.

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Speaker 6: Exactly, Nancy, I'm one hundred percent with you.

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Speaker 7: Of course.

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Speaker 6: You know, even at a trial, you don't have to

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Speaker 6: prove motive. I don't care his reasons.

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Speaker 4: Why he did it.

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Speaker 6: All the prosecution has to show that he is the

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Speaker 6: person that actually did it, so in terms of his

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Speaker 6: upbringing and what happened in the past. Yes, crime a river.

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Speaker 6: They can probably use that at the time of sentencing

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Speaker 6: for mitigation, but it doesn't matter when it comes to

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Speaker 6: murdering the first degree. He is facing life without the

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Speaker 6: possibility of parole. Here we're talking about three dead women,

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Speaker 6: possibly another woman that he may be charged with, and

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Speaker 6: who knows about the other people that were found dead

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Speaker 6: in that same area.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, BERNARDA another thing that you just brought up.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to jump in before I lose the thought.

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Speaker 1: They're he's charged with six counts, which is three felony

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Speaker 1: murdered counts on three victims and three murder two counts

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Speaker 1: on the same victims.

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Speaker 3: There are a lot more dead bodies.

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Speaker 1: One thing I find very intriguing is that, in his

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Speaker 1: many disgusting I had to even say I had to

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Speaker 1: wash my mouth out with peroxil yesterday after I read

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Speaker 1: his Google searches all about beating women and beating little

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Speaker 1: girls and raping them and sodomizing them. It just like

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Speaker 1: little girls with bruised up and crying. Anyway, one of

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Speaker 1: those searches was Jackie Sidney. Wasn't one of the searches

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Speaker 1: Asian twink? Yes, okay, And one of the victims is

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Speaker 1: a young male. And hey, Christian Thorn, jump in if

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Speaker 1: you know more than we do. But I'm wondering if

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Speaker 1: that search preceded the murder of the young male.

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Speaker 4: See what I'm saying, Nancy, Even more importantly, transgender male,

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Speaker 4: Asian male.

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Speaker 3: Is this BERNARDA. Or is this Kristin?

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Speaker 4: That's Kristin?

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Speaker 3: Okay, did you say transgender Asian male.

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Speaker 4: Yes, the victim was found in women's clothes.

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Speaker 3: That's right, You're right. I recall that.

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Speaker 1: So BERNARDA. His search is so critical because what if

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Speaker 1: that search was done, let's just say, twenty four hours

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Speaker 1: before this young Asian transgender male was found. Yes, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: that's just not just a coincidence.

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Speaker 6: Bernarda exactly. And Nancy, what I've been telling people is

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Speaker 6: that just because there's an indictment having to deal with

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Speaker 6: three of the women, that does not mean that there

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Speaker 6: are not going to be future charges for the other

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Speaker 6: people that were found along that beach. A lot of

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Speaker 6: what we're finding out all gifts of pieces of circumstantial evidence.

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Speaker 6: Once the circumstantial evidence starts mounting and mountain where you

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Speaker 6: can't get over it, you'll probably see charges in those

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Speaker 6: cases because that little piece right there of him searching

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Speaker 6: about the Asian twinks, and then all of a sudden

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Speaker 6: you see from the discovery of the bodies that there

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Speaker 6: is someone who is Asian? Huh, just makes you think

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Speaker 6: could this be related? Could it be tied? Could you

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Speaker 6: be responsible? Could you have been involved? Were you there?

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Speaker 6: What contact did you have with this person? Those are

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Speaker 6: all questions that will have to be answered.

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Speaker 1: Beautifully put and so concise. Guys, I have somehow let

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Speaker 1: us down a rabbit hole. Actually a rabbit hole infers

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Speaker 1: that it's not probative.

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Speaker 3: That's not true.

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Speaker 1: All of this is probative. And this is exactly what happens.

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Speaker 3: When you're preparing a case.

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Speaker 1: You go down every avenue, You think of every piece

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Speaker 1: of evidence, any significance, What all you can prove from

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Speaker 1: one piece of evidence? Like that Google search? Where was

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Speaker 1: he when he searched it? Can I identify that? Did

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Speaker 1: he immediately go on Craigslist after that? Did he start

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Speaker 1: making calls with his burner phones trying to find a

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Speaker 1: young Asian transgender male? Just so many questions that when

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Speaker 1: was the mail the young male's body found?

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Speaker 3: Can I get a time of day? Hey?

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Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle Dupree is joining us for now Forensic pathologists,

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Speaker 1: medical examiner, and former detective. She literally wrote the book

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Speaker 1: Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Doctor Dupre shot to the forefront

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Speaker 1: of the public consciousness during the Alex and Murdock trial,

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Speaker 1: Doctor dupri, what do you make this young Asian male's

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Speaker 1: body and as far as all of the other bodies go,

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Speaker 1: nearly a dozen. Can we date the time of death?

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Speaker 9: Well, Nancy, as you know, time of death is a range,

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Speaker 9: it is an estimate, and so we can get fairly close.

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Speaker 9: What I guess interests me about this case is that

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Speaker 9: this killer, he is a very bright person. He is

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Speaker 9: an organized killer, so he thinks about every move and

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Speaker 9: so finding additional evidence is wonderful, and I'm sure that

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Speaker 9: we're going to and hopefully we'll be able to tie

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Speaker 9: that directly back to him, especially this Asian mail and

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Speaker 9: that computer search that we're talking talking about there very well,

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Speaker 9: maybe some information there that's going to lead us to him.

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Speaker 1: So you're referring to extrinsic evidence that medical examiners often

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Speaker 1: used to determine. Is this For the longest time, before

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Speaker 1: I actually started trying homicide, I thought that the medical

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Speaker 1: examiner would base their findings strictly on what was derived.

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Speaker 3: From the body.

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Speaker 1: But they also take into account extrinsic evidence, such as

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Speaker 1: the victimated phone call at ten ten PM. Our body

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Speaker 1: is found at one am, so we know the time

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Speaker 1: of death is between ten and one.

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Speaker 9: You're exactly right, And of course we look at that

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Speaker 9: totality of circumstances. We look at that crime scene, We

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Speaker 9: look for any scene markers that might be there, anything

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Speaker 9: that might tie him to the victim or the victim

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Speaker 9: to him, So all of that becomes important, not just

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Speaker 9: what's on the body. Of course, you know, we like

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Speaker 9: everything that's on the body because that's what we really

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Speaker 9: deal in, but we deal with with all the other

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Speaker 9: extrinsic stuff as well.

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Speaker 3: You really do.

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Speaker 1: I can't wait to hear your thoughts after you examine

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Speaker 1: very carefully what we learned from the autopsies of all

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Speaker 1: of these nearly a dozen victims. Hey, Kristin Thorne, investigative

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Speaker 1: reporter WABC. Have you seen his Vegas Heidi holl Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's pretty lux I'm looking at a giant kidney shape.

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Speaker 1: It's got to be an Olympic sized pool. It's only

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Speaker 1: three stories tall. It's kind of an intimate setting. There's

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Speaker 1: a pool house, there's a huge hot tub. And when

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Speaker 1: he says he just went out for a pleasure trip,

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Speaker 1: he knows quote some people what people sex workers.

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Speaker 4: Well, you know that's where the question is. And Nancy,

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Speaker 4: as I'm thinking about it, and I'm thinking about the

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Speaker 4: picture of his luxury condo in Vegas in my head

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Speaker 4: right now, and you contrast that to the home. We

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Speaker 4: see a massive people at Park. I was there, so

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Speaker 4: I've seen it with my own eyes the difference, right,

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Speaker 4: So maybe when we talk about a double life, I

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Speaker 4: mean this really may have been one. The property and

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Speaker 4: massive people with Park. I'm sure people seen pictures. It

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Speaker 4: is the last created. It's the one house on that

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Speaker 4: street and that whole neighborhood that if you walk down

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Speaker 4: the street, you would say, some one strange lives at

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Speaker 4: that house, do you know what I mean? Every other

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Speaker 4: house is viewed meticulous landscaping. That house is falling apart,

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Speaker 4: and then you look at this luxury Las Vegas condo

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Speaker 4: and so you start to question or wonder maybe this

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Speaker 4: really was some sort of double life.

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Speaker 3: What do you know about the South Carolina property?

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Speaker 4: Kristen So he bought the South Carolina property to be

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Speaker 4: near his brother who lives down there. The aerial photos

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Speaker 4: that I've seen, and that's all that I've seen so far,

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Speaker 4: I think that's all that's out there actually are aerial photos.

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Speaker 4: It's a small house, but it's surrounded by woods. And

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Speaker 4: he said he purchased that property to be near his brother,

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Speaker 4: and we do know that his brother exists. In fact,

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Speaker 4: I've reached out to the brother a number of times

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Speaker 4: to try to get him on the phone, and you

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Speaker 4: can imagine he's not picking.

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Speaker 9: Up his phone.

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Speaker 4: But that's why he says he bought that property.

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Speaker 1: This place in Vegas is called Club Dislay. And of

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Speaker 1: course they declined to comment when they were when attempts

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Speaker 1: were made to reach them back to that secret room.

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Speaker 1: And again I'm struck. I can't wait for doctor Bethany

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Speaker 1: to tear this apart. The first thing he says to

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Speaker 1: the warden upon arrest is, hey, is it in the news.

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Speaker 1: I want to circle back to this room, this room

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Speaker 1: that he kept padlock in his basement. Take a listen

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Speaker 1: at our cut seventy one our friends at crimeonline dot Com.

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Speaker 2: Katherine Sheppard told The Daily Mail that Rex Harriman started

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Speaker 2: acting all weird when he told her she couldn't go

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Speaker 2: into a locked room in the basement. Since he brought

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Speaker 2: the interior designer to the home to make precise measurements.

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Speaker 2: It was more than just odd. But she tells The

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Speaker 2: Daily Mail that Harriman acted like he was kind of joking, like, Oh,

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Speaker 2: you can't go in there because there's things in there,

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Speaker 2: and then he said, I've got a bunch of guns.

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Speaker 2: Shepard told the Daily Email he was acting weird about it,

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Speaker 2: and she finally just said she could measure around it.

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Speaker 2: Eighteen years later, Rex Harriman is arrested and charged with murder,

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Speaker 2: and his former friend and sometimes coworker is left to

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Speaker 2: wonder what was really behind the locked door in the basement.

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Speaker 1: Joining me right now, Toby Wolson, forensic consultant specializing in

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Speaker 1: DNA zerology bloodstain analysis at no Slow Forensic dot com. Toby,

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Speaker 1: what would you be doing right now in that secret,

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Speaker 1: padlocked room in human's basement if you had access to it?

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Speaker 10: Well, you know, it's a room in the house. You're

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Speaker 10: going to process it just like all the other rooms,

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Speaker 10: but you're going to focus potentially more heavily on that

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Speaker 10: one because it is locked. But you don't want to

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Speaker 10: let it bias you that you don't properly handle the

431
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Speaker 10: whole house. So you're going to be in there searching

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Speaker 10: for the forensic evidence that can potentially connect him with

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Speaker 10: the victims, because low courage principle is based on the

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Speaker 10: idea that anytime you enter an area, you take something

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Speaker 10: with you when you leave, but you leave something behind.

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Speaker 10: So they would be looking for anything that could be

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Speaker 10: used to directly connect any of the victims to him,

438
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 10: or that house to any of the victims, or or

439
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 10: just like when they look at the victims as something

440
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 10: that would connect them to the killer. So it's the

441
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 10: same type of processing, but you may be inclined to.

442
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 6: Depending what's in there, be.

443
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 10: Extra thorough on it though, but you're still going to

444
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 10: be looking for all the same evidence regardless of if

445
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,639
Speaker 10: it's locked room or not. Here you want that direct contact.

446
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: So, Chris mcjohn, I think what I would be doing

447
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: if I were the forensic tech is first of all.

448
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 3: Not let anybody in there.

449
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,360
Speaker 1: You need to be in there with one other person

450
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 1: as your witness, just like you don't want to talk

451
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: to it by themselves, because then later they'll claim I

452
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 1: didn't say that, or you tortured me, or you hit

453
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: me or whatever. You need somebody else in there with

454
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 1: you or at the door watching you. They don't have

455
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: to come in, you need to fully suit up, including

456
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: footies like surgeons wear, so you don't transfer anything.

457
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 3: From the outside in. You would immediately.

458
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: I think the first thing I would do is look

459
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 1: for fibers and hair, because that's so easily disturbed. The

460
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 1: next thing I would do is, of course look for

461
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 1: prints fingerprints, and you have to dust with a dark powder,

462
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: but also I would go in there with aluminol and

463
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 1: try to find if there were any blood pattern bloodstain

464
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: patterns left, even speck because the naked eye can't see.

465
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 3: What's left behind.

466
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 10: Yeah, exactly.

467
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,439
Speaker 3: You know, it reminds me of something.

468
00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:00,040
Speaker 1: I recently took the twins on a mission trip to

469
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: Appellation and one of the things I was doing we

470
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: painted a bathroom and it was in a church, and

471
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: then I was going over the floor to get off

472
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 1: any little paint drops that we had dropped in there.

473
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: And I did it, and then I went back in

474
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: saw Moore. I finally did each block of tile individually

475
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: because I kept seeing paint that I missed the first time.

476
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: Can you imagine in a room down in a basement

477
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: with those lighting conditions, how much evidence could still be

478
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 1: in there?

479
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, Nancy in and so you're going to approach this

480
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 8: very carefully in relationship to a couple of things. Number one,

481
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 8: and depending on the type of room it is, if

482
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 8: it's a room set up to where he brings his

483
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 8: victim and then he uses that room you know to

484
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 8: as a torture tramber hypothetically, or the second is it

485
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 8: a collector's room, meaning is this a place where he's

486
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 8: keeping eyes items from the particular crimes. And then of

487
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 8: course the third is just where he's keeping some of

488
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 8: those guns that were utilized in those crimes. So there's

489
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 8: there's three type of avenues that potentially could go on here.

490
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 3: Maybe even more trophies can be in there too.

491
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: Trophies, Yeah, somewhere where his wife wouldn't say, for instance,

492
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 1: jewelry or driver's licenses.

493
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 8: Absolutely, this is a room where he visits often evident

494
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 8: of the fact that he locks that door. So he

495
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 8: is the controller of that room, i ease, the controller

496
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 8: of the victims and everything inside of that room. That's

497
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 8: part of his secret life. That particular room. If in

498
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 8: fact it's a place where they get in there, they

499
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 8: can hit it with like you said, luminol blue star

500
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 8: alternate light sources that are going to bring all that

501
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 8: you know forensics evidence to the surface. But if it's

502
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 8: a collector's room, that is going to be really fascinating

503
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 8: because that's going to tell us about his trips, because

504
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 8: this is going to be like a museum to him

505
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 8: for him to relive those potential fantasies. Let's say he's

506
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 8: doing things in Vegas, South Carolina. If this guy is

507
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 8: traveling and then committing these crimes, he's bringing those items

508
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 8: back to potentially this room.

509
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 3: Tund to Bethony Marshall, why save an airs Well.

510
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 5: Nancy, if we think about this crime, these crime serial

511
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 5: killing is motivated by sex and power, right that the

512
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 5: two are sort of joined or fused together in his mind,

513
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 5: and he's going to have to take more and more

514
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 5: extreme measures to achieve the sexual satisfaction. So what does

515
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 5: that mean when you think about that, and what do

516
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 5: those extra properties mean to me? It means that the

517
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 5: souvenant mears no longer hold the satisfaction that they used to,

518
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 5: and he's going to have to graduate from souvenirs to

519
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 5: a real person being the souvenir. See remember there was

520
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 5: one victim that he called I think sixteen times right

521
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 5: on his burner phone, so he was getting some satisfaction

522
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 5: by having contact with her, stalking her. So how does

523
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 5: someone start when they graduate sexually. Maybe they're just looking

524
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 5: at images online and then they're stalking a woman, Then

525
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 5: they raped a woman, then they kill a woman. But

526
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 5: the next step, I think is holding someone captive for

527
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 5: a period of time so you can do whatever you

528
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 5: want with them. So I think of this room not

529
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 5: so much as holding souvenirs, because I think that's.

530
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 9: A part of it, but I think of it as.

531
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 5: Holding a live person so you can do whatever you

532
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,959
Speaker 5: want with them. And these properties where he's bought the

533
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 5: properties is where he thinks they're sexual availability, right, like

534
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 5: sex workers maybe going to strip clubs and things like that.

535
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 5: But if you find someone who's transient, who's not really

536
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 5: connected to their family, then there's the potential that he

537
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 5: could hold that person for extended periods of time to

538
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 5: do things to them.

539
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: And that's not unreasonable since many of these attacks occurred

540
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: while his wife and children were out of state, just

541
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: as the way that Kristin Thorn from WABC Channel seven

542
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: has pointed out that he would go to Vegas without

543
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: his wife and children, which makes it's like a perfect

544
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: storm happening.

545
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 3: Time Stories with Nancy Grace.

546
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: You know, I'm looking at the South Carolina property Kristin Thorne.

547
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: It's like out of a Halloween movie. The sign is

548
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: an old weather beaten fence, really weather beaten wooden fence,

549
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: and it's got all these signs. Don't come in, keep out,

550
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: no trespassing. There's litter, some litter around it.

551
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 4: Is that a skull a stolen bone?

552
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: Yes, there's a skull of crossbones. Skull and crossbones. No warrant,

553
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: no entry, no warrant as in search warrant, no entry,

554
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 1: keep out, no trespassing. That is on the front of

555
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: his property. It's owned by human and his brother in Chester.

556
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: They're barely visible from an unpaved road, surrounded by no

557
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: trespassing signs.

558
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 3: The local state.

559
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: That the back of the lots meet onto a series

560
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: of connecting ponds where some people keep boats. Now, he

561
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: went to go cut the grass on one Sunday and

562
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: when a neighbor approached him, apparently they were met with

563
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: a steel pole out of nowhere. I don't know if

564
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 1: that was him or the brother. And the neighbor actually

565
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: called police. So they're serious about no trespassing. They don't

566
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: want anybody on that property.

567
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 4: Kristen, Yeah, I mean Nancy, looking at these pictures, I

568
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 4: mean it's right out of a movie. I mean it's

569
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 4: almost like, Ken, this is this real. It's exactly what

570
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 4: you would think. And again, but I go back to

571
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 4: how different this all is. You know, I wonder if

572
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 4: the wife and the children went to the South Carolina property.

573
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 4: I'm certainly curious about that. We haven't. I haven't read

574
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 4: anywhere if they went to that property.

575
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: No, the property in South Carolina was searched, but I

576
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: think they need a thorough search where they use cadaver

577
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: dogs and ground penetrating radar as well.

578
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 3: What do you think about that?

579
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I mean you look at the scale of this property.

580
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 4: I'm just looking at it now, with the woods. I

581
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 4: mean absolutely could never. Dogs would not be out of question,

582
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 4: And I don't think that that's unreasonable.

583
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 5: Nancy.

584
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 8: I think this could also be, you know, to Dovetail

585
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 8: and doctor Bethany's thought earlier about you know, this is

586
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 8: maybe an escalation and relationship to his control. I mean,

587
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 8: he's trying to isolate himself on that piece of property,

588
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 8: much different than obviously the inner city you know place,

589
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 8: but in here, in this piece of property, it could

590
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 8: have been in play in terms of what's the next

591
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 8: level that he was going to go to. You know,

592
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 8: he's exhausted, you know, some of the problems up in

593
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 8: New York, and now he's got this isolation down here

594
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 8: in South Carolina. And so it's going to be really

595
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 8: interesting how they're going to connect those two pieces in

596
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 8: relationship to his progression.

597
00:34:55,440 --> 00:35:03,919
Speaker 1: Isolation in South Carolina and virtual anonymity in Vegas. Hey,

598
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:10,280
Speaker 1: another thing, Christen, I'm just learning that apparently Hureerman planned

599
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: to quote by everybody out according to one of the

600
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: neighbors who spoke to Fox News, and basically make a big,

601
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 1: inaccessible compound.

602
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 3: Wow. I wonder what he was going to do there.

603
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 4: You know, Nancy, when these when these things come out,

604
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:33,240
Speaker 4: and anytime we cover cases like this, you hindsight's always

605
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 4: twenty twenty, right, But we hear these stories of these

606
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 4: little these little nuggets and these little details that were

607
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 4: being dropped along the way to people. And I have

608
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 4: to tell you, Nancy, even in reading that deposition I

609
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 4: was talking to you about from twenty seventeen, Heureman says

610
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,359
Speaker 4: in it that he drives a Chevy Avalanche and here

611
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 4: it is in a public deposition from twenty seventeen. He

612
00:35:54,840 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 4: was not hiding these facts that ended up leading to

613
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 4: him being arrested. And so again, I am not a

614
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 4: forensic psychologist, not like your experts that are very, very

615
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 4: professional and know what they're talking about here on this podcast.

616
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 4: But you know, it does make you think, was he's

617
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 4: so sure that he was not going to get caught

618
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 4: that he was he pursued this civil litigation and he

619
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 4: went to depositions and he did not hide these facts

620
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 4: about his life that ended up being potentially connected to

621
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 4: these crimes.

622
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: I can't wait to read the depots you've just told

623
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: me about, Kristin. I really appreciate you telling me about that. Hey, BERNARDA. Villaanona,

624
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: high profile on New York criminal defense attorney and former

625
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 1: prosecutor at Villa Loona dot Law, What do you make

626
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: of what you're hearing?

627
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 6: Nancy, There's so much going on. I just want to

628
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 6: like screat Jesus talking about the pieces on the board.

629
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 1: Do you did you actually just say did she actually

630
00:36:58,800 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: just say the lord's name in vain?

631
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 3: Did she actually say Jesus?

632
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: Please please please don't get him mad at me.

633
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 3: Oh that's what I don't need.

634
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,720
Speaker 1: So what do you make I mean when I'm starting

635
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 1: to think about his so called real estate portfolios and

636
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: a secret chamber in his basement, this is straight out

637
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 1: of a.

638
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 6: Horn a more absolutely Nancy.

639
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 7: And this is why there's been so many shows and

640
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 7: documentaries about this, And imagine how many more are going

641
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 7: to come out now. But you gotta think that this

642
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 7: man Humorman, he was living and playing slide. The thing

643
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 7: is is that he never thought he was going to

644
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 7: be caught. Remember, he was vigilant.

645
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 6: He was constantly searching on the incident on Google to

646
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,399
Speaker 6: see what is the status of this investigation? Has there

647
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 6: been any suspects? What are these two? Are these people?

648
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 6: And he was basing that And he was doing that

649
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,839
Speaker 6: because he wanted to see if he can perceive how

650
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 6: we should proceed. Is anyone on his Where can I go?

651
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 6: What should I do? Where should I hide?

652
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 7: What's my next step?

653
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 6: He was always he always thought that he was two

654
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 6: steps ahead of everyone, and that's why the DA miss

655
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 6: the tyranny. He was very very strategic in the sense

656
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 6: that he put it in a grand jury and he

657
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 6: said he wanted to keep this investigation on the hush

658
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 6: because he doesn't want to tip anyone to this investigation,

659
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 6: because he thought that the person that was responsible, hence

660
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 6: this man could be listening and watching to see law enforcements.

661
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: Next move, Banana, You are so correct, because I'm now

662
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: learning that there is evidence that Hureman was in fact

663
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 1: monitoring and trying to find out all the moves inside

664
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: moves of the investigators. What say started this new task

665
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 1: force to find the Long Island serial killer? They were right,

666
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,320
Speaker 1: and you're right, hey, doctor Bethany Marshall.

667
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:02,319
Speaker 5: The possibility is that place was organized around his perversion,

668
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 5: and it's his perversion was having power over people, and

669
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 5: that was sexually exciting.

670
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 3: Doctor Bethany.

671
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: As much as I want to talk about human sexual excitement,

672
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 1: can I ask you a question?

673
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 5: Sure.

674
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: This first came to my mind when I was prosecuting

675
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: a child molestation. Two little sisters were both molested full

676
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 1: on rate when was three one was seven by mommy's

677
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: boyfriend who happened to be really wealthy.

678
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 3: I started looking into him.

679
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 1: He had attacks, I think he had thirty plus and

680
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: his words natural children by many women, and he started.

681
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 3: Raping and beating his own.

682
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: Natural daughters, bio daughters, twenty five years before I got

683
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: ahold of him.

684
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:51,760
Speaker 3: I'm happy to report he got put away for life.

685
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: But when I got him, he was near seventy and

686
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: still at it. This guy's fifty and he wants to

687
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: retire to South Carolina. You don't think he still got

688
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 1: it in him? You're wrong, You are wrong. Sex offenders

689
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: continue offending until they're not breathing.

690
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 6: That's right.

691
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 9: They don't age out.

692
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 11: Because it's not really sex per se. It's about achieving

693
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 11: that next sexual high by doing something more and more extreme,

694
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 11: and so you know, beating might be a part of it.

695
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 11: Having more and more children so that you can have

696
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 11: power over them, so you can corral them in some way.

697
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 11: I was just thinking about the FLDS cult, and the

698
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 11: leader of that cult didn't just stop at having sex

699
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:47,280
Speaker 11: with one child.

700
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,879
Speaker 5: He wanted more and more and more children, more.

701
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,800
Speaker 3: And more and more children to molest. It was endless quickly,

702
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 3: Doctor Duprey. Where is Chester, South Carolina?

703
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 9: Chester is actually a very very rural town and county,

704
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 9: and it's up in the north sort of east, near

705
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 9: the Charlotte border.

706
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 1: Gotcha, because when I look at the areaal that Kristen

707
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 1: Thorne was describing. It looks like where I grew up,

708
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 1: out in the middle of nowhere.

709
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 9: That's about right.

710
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, Toby Wilson, very quickly, what should authorities be doing

711
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 1: in Vegas Manchester?

712
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 10: They need to be looking for similar homicides and disappearances

713
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 10: that match the New York ones because THEMO develops over time,

714
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 10: but it stays essentially similar from beginning to end, and

715
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 10: so they need to see if they have homicides or

716
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 10: disappearances in those areas that match the MO of the

717
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 10: New York cases. And then once they do that, then

718
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 10: they need to start processing those properties to see if

719
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 10: they can find some connection between the missing or dead person.

720
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: Man, you're not kidding, Kristen Thorne with us very quickly,

721
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: what comes next?

722
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 4: I think today we're really and it's we we're going

723
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 4: to see. I want to see what's coming out of

724
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 4: his home out of these storage units. I have a

725
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 4: lot of curiosity around these storage units, right because the

726
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 4: home we know that his wife and his children were

727
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 4: living there, and so it may not have the trophies

728
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 4: that we would see in a storage unit. So to me,

729
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 4: I'm very interested in seeing that I'm also going to

730
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 4: be following up with Las Vegas, absolutely South Carolina. I

731
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 4: think that there's a lot coming out of there, and

732
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 4: I think we also should talk about, like you know,

733
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 4: police law enforcement said yesterday that they talked to his

734
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 4: family and that they were quote shocked, embarrassed, and disgusted

735
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 4: that they had no idea they say that any of

736
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 4: this was happening, but police are going to continue to

737
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 4: look at them and they will be looking at their

738
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 4: phone records as well.

739
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: Guys, if you know or think you know anything about

740
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: this investigation, be it in Massapequa, South Carolina, Vegas, please

741
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 1: call one eight hundred two to zero Tips one eight

742
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: hundred two two zero t I P S.

743
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 3: Goodbye, friend,