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Speaker 1: Hey, Matt, hey Ben, who killed Fred Hampton?

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Speaker 2: Oh? You don't want me to answer that. I kind

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Speaker 2: of do the cops.

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, this is our classic episode, folks. The Black

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Speaker 1: Panther Party for Self Defense was founded in Oakland, California,

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Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty six, and things went horribly wrong on

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Speaker 1: December fourth, just a few years later.

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Speaker 3: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is

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Speaker 3: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 3: learn this stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 2: Oh, hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Nola.

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Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined with our super

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Speaker 1: producer of Paul, Mission Control decad. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. It's twenty nineteen, and if you

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Speaker 1: are remotely aware of the news, you understand.

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Speaker 2: That the government is still shut down.

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Speaker 1: The government is this is the longest shutdown in modern

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Speaker 1: US history.

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Speaker 4: So presumably they're not assassinating any political activists at the moment.

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Speaker 1: Well, the assassins aren't getting paid at least that's whole

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Speaker 1: there's back pay right load. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: a divisive time in the country. But that's something people

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Speaker 1: always say, you know, how like older people are always like, oh,

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Speaker 1: new music sucks, but old music's good. And people are

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Speaker 1: always like, ah, this is the most divisive time ever.

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Speaker 1: It's always been a real there's a phrase Nol stumbled

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Speaker 1: upon that I really like. It's always been a real

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Speaker 1: ship show. It's true because we're a families show.

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Speaker 2: There was a p just everyone.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's sort of like a trade show for boats

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Speaker 4: in a show right up on stilts you get to

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Speaker 4: look at their undercarriages.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's like that, but with with rampant want

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Speaker 1: and have it politically with quite real danger to many people.

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Speaker 1: And we're not we're not going to do some AM

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Speaker 1: or FM political talking points show. We're not going to

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Speaker 1: pair it out some headlines at you. We want to

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Speaker 1: establish that context because it's often said that history is cyclical. Right,

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Speaker 1: it may maybe it doesn't repeat, but it rhymes. And

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Speaker 1: the reason that cliche is a cliche is because it's true.

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Speaker 1: That's the reason most cliches are cliches. It's because they're true.

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Speaker 1: Everyone knows it. It's such an eye roll when people

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Speaker 1: say it. Today we are taking a journey into a

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Speaker 1: into an event that may be familiar to some of

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Speaker 1: us and maybe brand new to others. And it may

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Speaker 1: be something that you just remember from one line in

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Speaker 1: a Rage against the Machine song down Rodeo. Right, we

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Speaker 1: were talking about this off air listening to Rage against

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Speaker 1: the Machine, and the three of us. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you agreed, Paul, but the three of us, at

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Speaker 1: least here in the booth thought, you know, rage against

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Speaker 1: the Machine holds up well.

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Speaker 4: The thing too about not to me, there's all of

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Speaker 4: a sudden the critique about Rage against the Machine and

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Speaker 4: their cultural significance. But the thing that stands up to

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Speaker 4: me is that all of the other like rap metal

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Speaker 4: bands or whatever, they sound completely cliche and hackney now,

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Speaker 4: but Rage against the Machine just sounds like Rage against

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Speaker 4: the Machine. Nobody else really copied them so exactly that

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Speaker 4: they sound like a tired, you know, copy of themselves.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, good on them, Yeah, yeah, for being innovative.

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Speaker 2: Just another thing that I was reminded of. My wife

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Speaker 2: is always trying to get me to listen to newer

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Speaker 2: music and back in the day, jay Z and who's

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Speaker 2: that guy? Is the other guy? Jay Z? And Kanye I'm.

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Speaker 1: Just joking, Tonye, give me a direction here.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure. I think it's if you're looking at

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Speaker 2: a map, I think it's still to the left.

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Speaker 1: Kanye north by Northwest.

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Speaker 2: Something like that. No, but they had they had a

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Speaker 2: song that mentioned the person we're talking about today, and

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Speaker 2: it it just reminded me of that too, just putting

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Speaker 2: that out.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, So specifically that line in

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Speaker 1: down Rodeo is they ain't gonna send me camping like

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Speaker 1: they did my Manfred Hampton, right, And that is a

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Speaker 1: real person. Yes, this is common knowledge to some of us.

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Speaker 1: This is maybe a an Easter egg for some people.

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Speaker 1: But today we are exploring the life and times and

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Speaker 1: untimely end of a very young man named Fred Hampton. Today,

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Speaker 1: most people would not be able to point out may Would,

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Speaker 1: Illinois on a map. It's relatively small. It's a community

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Speaker 1: of at the closes estimate, a little more than twenty

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Speaker 1: three five hundred people in Cook County's Proviso township. Shortly

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Speaker 1: after World War Two, there was this kid. His name's

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Speaker 1: Fred Hampton. He was born in Summit, Illinois. He went

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Speaker 1: to a high school in Maywood in the area. He

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Speaker 1: was great at math, he was a great athlete, and

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Speaker 1: for a time he was a pre law student. He

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Speaker 1: died spoiler alert when he was twenty one years old.

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Speaker 4: As bonkers to me every time I look back at these,

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Speaker 4: whether it's like musicians that dies at an early age

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Speaker 4: like Kurt Kobain and I forget they're like twenty three

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Speaker 4: and twenty four years old. I still think of myself

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Speaker 4: as a relatively young man. But it really makes you

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Speaker 4: puts things in perspective, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when just getting started, Fred Hampton was.

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Speaker 1: So what happened? To look at this, we will have

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Speaker 1: to start with some social context, some backgrounds. So here

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Speaker 1: are the facts. Fred Hampton is today most widely known

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Speaker 1: for his association with the Black Panther Party or BPP,

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Speaker 1: officially the Black Panther Party for Self Defense. This was

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Speaker 1: founded in Oakland, California in nineteen sixty six by Huey

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Speaker 1: Newton and Bobby Seal. Originally, these guys wanted to protect

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Speaker 1: local residents of the Oaklands community from police brutality and

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Speaker 1: this is.

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Speaker 2: And from other crime and just like as a like

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Speaker 2: a local defense force essentially.

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Speaker 1: Right, a self governing community. Right, we don't need we

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Speaker 1: don't need the law enforcement industry as they saw it,

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Speaker 1: to further repress our community. There's so many things that

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Speaker 1: could be solved. The reasoning goes by just talking to kids,

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Speaker 1: because these are teenagers, just saying hey, don't cause trouble

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Speaker 1: or you know. It's it's like you hear the stories

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Speaker 1: of young kids who maybe get pulled over for something,

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Speaker 1: or they get caught drinking underage or smoking pot, and

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Speaker 1: then the officers, up to their discretion, they can they

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Speaker 1: can book a kid and take them to juvie, or

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Speaker 1: they can do something that is scarier and more frightening

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Speaker 1: for some of them, which is called their mother. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting.

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Speaker 4: In the movie Black Clansman, I don't know if you

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Speaker 4: guys have seen that yet, but it's got some I

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Speaker 4: think Spikeley finally got his first Best Picture and Best

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Speaker 4: Director Oscar nomination.

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Speaker 1: First nomination in thirty years since Do the Right.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: I watched it on the plane. Yeah, that's good.

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Speaker 4: But there's a scene where at Stokeley Carmichael, who's the

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Speaker 4: leader of the Black Panther Party, is speaking at a

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Speaker 4: university and one of the organizers, who's a college student

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Speaker 4: who's got this you know, college group that organizes this

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Speaker 4: event is very abusively pulled over by the very racist

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Speaker 4: local police. And just for being the person that brought

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Speaker 4: these people to this town, I believe in Colorado, the

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Speaker 4: city in Colorado, So that kind of stuff was happening

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Speaker 4: all the time, and that was the name. There was

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Speaker 4: absolutely a need to have some kind of protection within

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Speaker 4: this specific community to keep stuff like that from happening.

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Speaker 1: And need is key. These people weren't making these decisions

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Speaker 1: for fun, right. They weren't like, hey, should we go

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Speaker 1: bowling or should we should we start a political party

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Speaker 1: and then rock paper scissors for it. They saw a

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Speaker 1: need and as the BPP evolved its goals expanded, they

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Speaker 1: recognized this was not something that needed to exist only

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Speaker 1: in Oakland, California, but in the continent entire right, especially

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Speaker 1: the US, but also also Canada, and the group eventually

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Speaker 1: called for nationwide changes meant to combat the racial inequality

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Speaker 1: in the US which still exists today. Yeah, by the

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Speaker 1: late nineteen sixties, this organization had over two thousand members,

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Speaker 1: two thousand admitted members. There were probably many many more sympathizers, right,

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Speaker 1: or people who said, I see what you're doing tacitly,

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Speaker 1: if not explicitly supported. Critics of the party, including the FBI,

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Speaker 1: saw this organization as a They saw it as a

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Speaker 1: hate group. They saw it as a on the level

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Speaker 1: of racial supremacy group, you know, like the KKKVE.

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Speaker 4: And they also saw it as primed to explode in

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Speaker 4: some sort of like massive uprising or riot kind of situation,

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Speaker 4: when in fact, they were building schools in inner city

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Speaker 4: areas of Oakland, and they had like clinics and supply

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Speaker 4: free launch co ops and all of this really incredible

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Speaker 4: community building stuff, breakfast programs for kids and clothing drives

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Speaker 4: and all of this stuff. And the thing I mentioned

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Speaker 4: earlier about the you know, protecting themselves against you know,

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Speaker 4: racial profiling, it's certainly wasn't. It was much more of

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Speaker 4: an awareness thing and of like, let's stick together and

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Speaker 4: make people aware that they can't mess with us because

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Speaker 4: we are of one mind and we will you know,

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Speaker 4: look out for each other, yes, and draw attention to

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Speaker 4: the fact that this stuff is happening.

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Speaker 1: And know your rights. That's also big proponents of the

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Speaker 1: Second Amendment, which you know, the right to bear arms,

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Speaker 1: not the animal bear arms. Yes, I feel like we

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Speaker 1: always have to say that now, but the right to

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Speaker 1: hold a firearm.

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Speaker 2: I think this is a good place to mention that

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Speaker 2: the Black Panther Party is one of numerous organizations that

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Speaker 2: find their origins in this time period. Oh yes, where

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Speaker 2: And these are somewhat splintered groups where members of one,

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Speaker 2: like chapter of the Black Panther Party, would go and

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Speaker 2: form their own group. And this was this was happening

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Speaker 2: throughout the United States. So there are there. Basically you

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Speaker 2: have to imagine if you look on a map, there

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Speaker 2: are there are smaller groups all over the place rather

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Speaker 2: than one unified group.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely, And that's an excellent point because not everybody

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Speaker 1: agreed on every facet of the of the ideology.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: There would be people who agree with the push for equality,

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Speaker 1: but they would say, hey, this is antagonistic work within

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Speaker 1: the system. And there we're other people who said, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, the system is built to destroy you, so

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Speaker 1: you are destroying yourself and us if you play along

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Speaker 1: with these games.

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Speaker 2: And if you look closely enough, it's interesting how you

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Speaker 2: can see the rationality for almost all of the groups

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Speaker 2: like because it almost makes complete sense in every scenario

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Speaker 2: with these groups that are coming together, it's all about philosophy.

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Speaker 1: Sure, and philosophy is ultimately only as valuable as the

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Speaker 1: actions and inspires which I just made up. But I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna stick by that. That uh turn of phrase.

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Speaker 4: Oh think it belongs on a bumper sticker and or

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Speaker 4: a plaque of.

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Speaker 2: Some kind or a T shirt.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I really do think so.

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Speaker 4: But this is totally true because the biggest thing that

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Speaker 4: Fred Hampton was known for was being like an organizer.

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Speaker 4: He was a great speaker, He could bring people together,

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Speaker 4: and he pushed for this idea that the people in

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Speaker 4: charge were using tools, using racism as a tool to

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Speaker 4: control people that were not in their club. You know,

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Speaker 4: which is that's the conspiracy theory.

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Speaker 1: That's just absolutely looking at it, and some conspiracy theories,

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Speaker 1: for the record, are true. But he is right. There's

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Speaker 1: an active conspiracy the federal government at this time as

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Speaker 1: the Panthers expand, the federal government considers this group and

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Speaker 1: associated groups terrorists and they lump them in with the

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Speaker 1: various other separatists or status quot challenging groups that you

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Speaker 1: alluded to earlier, Matt. In the FBI's estimation, the BPP

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Speaker 1: was an extremist group that quote advocated the use of

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Speaker 1: violence and guerrilla tactics to overthrow the US government. That's

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Speaker 1: that's a heavy phrase to drop.

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 1: That's there's whether or not you largely agree with the

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Speaker 1: idea of let's just pick one thing, whether or not

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Speaker 1: you agree with the Second Amendment. Uh, it's it's a

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Speaker 1: hell of a leap to say that people attempting to

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Speaker 1: police their own communities are automatically going to the White

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Speaker 1: House to burn down the Oval office. That's that's that's

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Speaker 1: a logical leap. And it's when the FBI bought.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's absolute they didn't so they sold it exactly.

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Speaker 1: It's absolute hyperbole.

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Speaker 4: And it's like we're saying, it's this idea of selling

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Speaker 4: to the public, this notion that this group of organized

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Speaker 4: African American people are somehow a threat to you in

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Speaker 4: your white communities or in your you know, way of

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Speaker 4: life and your job and all of this stuff and

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Speaker 4: your safety.

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Speaker 1: Really they accept whatever they need to do to.

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Speaker 2: Get rid of it. It really is propaganda. But we

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Speaker 2: cannot discount that some of these splintered off groups were

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Speaker 2: using extreme vice, extreme violence as Weatherman. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 2: think it's a Symbionese liberation.

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Speaker 4: Front sure like these other much more extreme could even

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Speaker 4: now be classified as terrorist groups.

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Speaker 1: Right. This is during the this is during the Vietnam era,

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Speaker 1: meaning that the I have a great metaphor for this.

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Speaker 1: I want to save it for the end. But the

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Speaker 1: idea here was one of an existential threat. So the

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Speaker 1: Federal Bureau of Investigation deals with things like, you know,

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Speaker 1: human trafficking, drugs, murders across state lines, that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: And they said, back burner, back burner, back burner, dissidents,

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Speaker 1: extremist terrorist people who want the US to be less racist,

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Speaker 1: them too, And.

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Speaker 2: And that's our number one priority.

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Speaker 1: That's our priority. They said, like, you know, drugs, human trafficking,

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Speaker 1: interstate murder, that's stuff happens, you know, omelets, eggs. But

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what, buddy, these hippies, these black panthers,

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Speaker 1: this injustice shall not stand. Only our injustice shall stand,

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Speaker 1: one might imagine. So let's with that context, let's look

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Speaker 1: at Fred Hampton. It's a name that's familiar to people,

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Speaker 1: but it's also an This is the name of a

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Speaker 1: real person, not just a symbol. Right, he's a smart kid.

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Speaker 1: We mentioned that he was born in Summit, Illinois. That

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Speaker 1: was on August thirtieth, nineteen forty eight, so like us,

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Speaker 1: he's an August kid. He was raised in Maywood and

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Speaker 1: he graduated from the high school there with honors in

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Speaker 1: sixty six, nineteen sixty six. From high school, he first

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Speaker 1: went to the Developmental Institute at the YMCA Community College

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Speaker 1: in Chicago, and then he attended Triton Junior College in

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Speaker 1: River Grove, Illinois. He majored in pre law because he

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Speaker 1: planned to familiarize himself with the legal system to Noah's rights,

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Speaker 1: with the aim of better protecting his community against what

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Speaker 1: he saw as the threat of the police. And there's

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Speaker 1: an interesting confluence of contrasting views here because Hampton saw

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Speaker 1: the police as an existential threat to his community and

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Speaker 1: the FBI eventually sold the Black Panthers as an existential

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Speaker 1: threat to their community. Yeah. So originally, and he's a

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Speaker 1: very young kid at this time. Originally Fred organized for

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Speaker 1: the NAACP.

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Speaker 2: Yes, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People,

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Speaker 2: just to put that back in there, and then he

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Speaker 2: ended up joining the Black Panther Party in nineteen sixty eight,

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Speaker 2: which was headquartered at the time in Oakland, California. And

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Speaker 2: you know, after he joins up with them. He moves

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Speaker 2: to Chicago, and he basically develops an Illinois chapter of

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Speaker 2: the Black Panther Party.

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Speaker 1: He gets in on the ground floor, and over the

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Speaker 1: next year in Chicago, Hampton and other members of the

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Speaker 1: chapter and people associated with it achieved some pretty impressive stuff,

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Speaker 1: you know, like Noel said earlier, they are supplying clothing,

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Speaker 1: they're supplying food, they're organizing, their educating. The most notable

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Speaker 1: achievement on the one people remember the most often now,

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Speaker 1: was that Hampton brokered a deal between some of Chicago's

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Speaker 1: most powerful street gangs by saying, look, we are in

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Speaker 1: a system that wants you to fight. It wants you

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Speaker 1: to kill one another because then you won't vote. It

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Speaker 1: wants you to kill one another because then you won't

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Speaker 1: get old enough, maybe dive into your thirties. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: you have to be in your thirties to be president, right.

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Speaker 2: And if you're finding each other, you can't see the

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Speaker 2: real enemy essentially exactly. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And this message resonated with these gangs, and so

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Speaker 1: he televised this multi racial, class conscious alliance between the BPP,

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Speaker 1: the Young Patriots Organization, and the Young Lords.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: This was technically a non aggression pact. And because he said,

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Speaker 1: you know this, this is what the system wants. It

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Speaker 1: wants to keep you poor, it wants to keep you

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Speaker 1: dying young h or put you in prison.

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Speaker 2: And he was, you know, we said this was televised.

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Speaker 2: Fred Hampton was somebody if you listen to he is

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Speaker 2: very convincing. And if you listen to him, I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's just one of the there's sometimes comes along a speaker,

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Speaker 2: a public speaker who can in a way and I

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Speaker 2: don't know if this is the right word, but almost

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Speaker 2: entrance you where you're just listening and you're like, okay, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I hear what you're saying. The way you're speaking, what

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Speaker 2: you're saying, it's speaking to me. It's not you're not

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Speaker 2: speaking at me, you're speaking to me. And since it

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Speaker 2: was on television, the right, I guess and wrong people

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Speaker 2: were noticing.

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Speaker 1: Ah, excellent point, Matt. Yes, yes, because this is a

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Speaker 1: moment that can be propagated before it can be censored. Right, yes,

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Speaker 1: So after this watershed event, after this watershed year, during

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Speaker 1: this year, fred Hampton also coins a phrase that will

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Speaker 1: be familiar with a lot of people who may not

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Speaker 1: have heard of fred Hampton, which is the phrase Rainbow Coalition,

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Speaker 1: arguing again for a multiracial cooperative to address the entrenched

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Speaker 1: poverty of lower working class Chicago and more importantly, the

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Speaker 1: country as a whole. This was later taken up by

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Speaker 1: successive political pundits.

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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, it was really used. It morphed over time.

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Speaker 2: Let's say it did. It did.

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Speaker 1: And one thing I like about what you're pointing out

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Speaker 1: with the televised, with the televised, let's all get together,

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Speaker 1: cooperate overthrow the system, right, forget the g rides on

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Speaker 1: what the machines that are making them this. The BPP

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Speaker 1: did have a maoist or communists tinge to its ideology,

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Speaker 1: you know, and this made the idea of the Black

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Speaker 1: Panther Party a compounding threat, right, because we're still we're

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Speaker 1: in Cold War era at this point, and they were

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Speaker 1: essentially messing with the money. What happened this year, well,

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Speaker 1: at the very end of nineteen sixty nine, according to

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Speaker 1: the official story, Fred Hampton died in an apartment raid

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Speaker 1: searching for illegal weapons in the early hours of December fourth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen six sixty nine. The FBI saw themselves as protecting

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Speaker 1: the population, protecting the innocent population of Chicago, and officially

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Speaker 1: they were raiding a dangerous group that possessed ostensibly illegal weapons.

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Speaker 1: One more time, officially, that's what they were doing. It

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Speaker 1: should go without saying, but I'll say it not everyone

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Speaker 1: believes the story.

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Speaker 2: And we'll get into that story after a quick word

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Speaker 2: from our sponsor and we're back. And I just want

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Speaker 2: to point this out here. This is when Fred Hampton died.

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Speaker 2: Just as a fun fact. It was. It's not fun.

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Speaker 2: It was two months after the last confirmed Zodiac killing. Okay,

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Speaker 2: let's keep going.

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Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. So the federal government sees

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Speaker 1: this and associated groups as a threat. They are terror

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Speaker 1: five of the idea of anything challenging the solvency of

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Speaker 1: the government, the breaking of the rule of law. So

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Speaker 1: the question becomes how far would the US government go

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Speaker 1: to prevent what they saw as the spread of subversive elements?

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Speaker 1: Would they, in fact MI five style CIA style, break

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Speaker 1: the laws they were supposed to enforce in pursuit of

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Speaker 1: what they saw as a greater good. Evidence overwhelmingly indicates yes,

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Speaker 1: the FBI essentially engineered and assassination.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's tough to look past the evidence, especially

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Speaker 2: if you look at the full picture here with something

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Speaker 2: we're about to get into a specific program.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeap, yep, yep, which will be familiar to fellow

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Speaker 1: longtime listeners. Let's start with a guy named Mark O'Neil.

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Speaker 1: Will we'll go into detail about him in a moment.

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Speaker 1: What you need to know about Mark is that he

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Speaker 1: was in the BPP and associated with it, but he

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Speaker 1: was also for a part of the time an FBI infemant.

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Speaker 1: And on the night of December third, after a political

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Speaker 1: education session, Hampton and his girlfriend, who was pregnant, and

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Speaker 1: several of their associates went to this apartment where they

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Speaker 1: were going to spend the.

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Speaker 2: Night, and this guy, Mark O'Neill was functioning as security.

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Speaker 1: He also made dinner. Yeah, he made dinner, and he

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Speaker 1: drugged Fred Hampton with barbituates which prevented him from waking

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Speaker 1: up at all. Okay, yeah, yeah, he slept peacefully in

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Speaker 1: this bedroom with his girlfriend and the police when they

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Speaker 1: conducted the raid around four am or so, they came in,

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Speaker 1: guns blazing, right, and there was was it mark O'Neill?

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Speaker 1: Was he the one holding the shotgun?

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Speaker 2: Mark O'Neill was there, or at least for a time, yeah,

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Speaker 2: because again he set the entire thing up.

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Speaker 1: So the police shot security. Who was one guy with

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Speaker 1: a shotgun. They just shot him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was not Mark Neil.

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Speaker 1: That was not Mark O'Neil. No, they just shot the

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Speaker 1: guy as he's dying. Shotgun discharges. It's the only shot

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Speaker 1: the BPP fired that night. And then they aimed their

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Speaker 1: fire on the bedroom where Hampton and his again pregnant girlfriend,

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Speaker 1: and again these people are in their twenties, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: where they shot a twenty one year old kid asleep

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Speaker 1: in a room. And you could claim fog of war.

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Speaker 1: You could claim best of intentions, or that the road

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Speaker 1: to Hell is paved with those kinds of tiles, or

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Speaker 1: you could claim this was part of something called co

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Speaker 1: intel pro, which it was. Just for the record, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want to put that out.

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Speaker 2: There, co intel pro. And you may be most familiar

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Speaker 2: with this word unfortunately slash kind of fortunately through the

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Speaker 2: work of Alex Jones, and you'll hear him yelling about

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Speaker 2: it on the internet sometimes. But yeah, co intel pro

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Speaker 2: it's an actual thing.

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Speaker 4: I was founded by the FBI in nineteen fifty six,

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Speaker 4: and it was just kind of a catch all term

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Speaker 4: for a counterintelligence program. Well, that's what was short for

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Speaker 4: a counter intelligence program that was designed to stop the

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Speaker 4: Communist Party initially, and then it began to kind of

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Speaker 4: branch off and attack some of these more domestic groups

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Speaker 4: that we talked about, including the Socialist Worker Party of course,

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Speaker 4: the Black Panthers, and any of the other splinter groups

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Speaker 4: that we've been talking about throughout, some of which were

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Speaker 4: quite dangerous and did pose a.

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Speaker 1: Threat also in their defense, the klu Klux Klan. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they were hunting anything they saw as subversive. It's a

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Speaker 1: very bad time to be a vegan, just to give

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Speaker 1: you a sense of how rigid their ideology was. On

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Speaker 1: Uncle Sam's side.

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Speaker 2: Or an animal rights activist, oh.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, or an animal rights activist.

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Speaker 2: By the way, I watched Oh it's not animal rights. Sorry,

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Speaker 2: I watched this movie called Edge of Darkness last night.

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Speaker 2: It just happened to be on HBO when I was

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Speaker 2: just flipping through, and it was activists who were trying

435
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 2: to expose a nuclear weapons program. But it felt very

436
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 2: similar like the off the grade groups you know that

437
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: are functioning for a higher purpose.

438
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: Sure sure sure no credit cards, right, no credit card usage?

439
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: Watch out for your phone. It as GPS it's not

440
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: about the money. It's about sending a message. Okay, sorry,

441
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: I know I'm making crazy eyes at you. I just

442
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: I get it.

443
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

444
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 1: So the Panther Party wasn't originally part of the co

445
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,919
Speaker 1: Intel pro targets, right, part of the FBI targets, but

446
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:10,640
Speaker 1: by nineteen sixty eight, j Edgar Hoover himself considered them

447
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: to be quote the greatest threat to the internal security

448
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: of the country because he saw them as commis, right,

449
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: as communists, and additionally as people stirring up the pot,

450
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 1: you know, almost as insurgents. He saw it as a

451
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: potential insurgency.

452
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it goes back to that existential threat to

453
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 2: the United States because some of the philosophy and some

454
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 2: of the some of the truth that is being spoken

455
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 2: within these groups and being televised speaks to some of

456
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 2: the biggest problems that exist in the country at this

457
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 2: time from an inequality standpoint, and that's dangerous if you

458
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: get enough people to truly follow and believe, especially if

459
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 2: you have main parts of this group that are armed. Right,

460
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: I can imagine why jodgre Hoover and some of his

461
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 2: groups were terrified of this type of organization.

462
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, and by nineteen sixty nine, the Panthers were, you know,

463
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: one of the primary targets steered by Hoover, and the

464
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 1: FBI attempted a number of nefarious strategies to weaken the group.

465
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: The FBI was primarily concerned with a sort of a

466
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 1: domino effect or an accretion, you know of similar groups

467
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 1: that got together and said, hey, you're on the same page.

468
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: You also understand the idea or you agree with us

469
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 1: with his idea. The proletariat right and the class struggle.

470
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's all work together. That's dangerous for.

471
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: As long as it lasts. Yeah, yeah, I mean human

472
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: beings have been saying let's work together until one of

473
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: them stabs the other one in the back, like before

474
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: recorded history, probably before Homo sapiens. It's just sort of

475
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: our thing. So the fact that Fred Hampton was, as

476
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: you pointed out, Matt, this enormously compelling, brilliant speaker, this

477
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: unifying force. The fact that he had these capabilities made

478
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: him a target. It put the target on his back

479
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: as far as Uncle Sam was concerned, and especially the

480
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 1: age of twenty one, Yeah, especially being so young, like

481
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: you said, he's just beginning. And to prevent this growth

482
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: to stop him short, the FBI started surveilling Hampton and

483
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: his associates to the best of their ability. Wire tapping,

484
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: which listening to phone calls, infiltration, They were stealing the

485
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: guy's mail, they were reading his stuff. They attempted extortion,

486
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: they did more. I mean, this is an era of

487
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: domestic security where in this same government agency, the FBI

488
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: wrote letters to doctor Martin Luther King trying to convince

489
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: him to kill himself.

490
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, who, by the way, was assassinated just the

491
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 2: year prior to when Fred Hampton was killed.

492
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly. There's an escalation. And at the time this

493
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: may sound like common knowledge to a lot of us

494
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: listening today. At the time, cointelpro was classified.

495
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 2: Nobody knew what was happening.

496
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: Nobody knew these operations were not public until nineteen seventy one.

497
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: And that's important because it means that during the early

498
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: morning hours December fourth, nineteen sixty nine, there was no

499
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: public scrutiny of the actions that the FBI and its

500
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:50,719
Speaker 1: proxies local law enforcement chose to take. There was definitely

501
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: not congressional oversight.

502
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and even then, this is terrible to even think,

503
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 2: but even then, at the time if you look at Congress,

504
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't, I can't say this is my opinion,

505
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 2: but I don't. I feel like congressional oversight wouldn't do

506
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 2: much for something like this unfortunately. Yeah, that's just that's

507
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 2: just my completely my opinion.

508
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 1: I agree with you. And one thing that this touches

509
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: on is something that's occurred in this government and other

510
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: governments quite often, which is the conflict between elected and

511
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: unelected officials. Right. You know, if you live in this

512
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: country and you are able to vote, you can vote

513
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: for a representative, you can vote for a president. You

514
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: cannot vote for a Supreme Court justice, those nine creepy

515
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: ring rates that run this place, and everybody still pretends

516
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: that's normal. Excuse me, different episodes, Yeah, or like you know,

517
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: people who are on the Federal reserve, people on the

518
00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 1: federal reserve. Yeah, excellent point. So you, you and I

519
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: and anyone listening cannot directly vote for the heads of

520
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: intelligence agencies. That's never going to be on your ballot.

521
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: And presidents can come and go, but that is a different.

522
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 2: Game, you know what I mean. I'm getting creeped out.

523
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: You know, I'm passionate about this. I feel like I'm

524
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: preaching to the choir here, but it's true. And the

525
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 1: reason we bring that up is because I want to

526
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: be very clear that there are people in Congress but

527
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: the best of intentions, who had no idea what was

528
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: going on. Yes, you know what I mean. They were

529
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: concerned about their constituency, they were probably they were probably

530
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: mainly concerned with being re elected, if we're being honest,

531
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: but they would not have co signed these sorts of actions,

532
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: right because now, looking back, we have to ask ourselves

533
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: who were the terrorists who was engaging in guerrilla tactics

534
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: who successfully assassinated more people? Oh? I know, I know,

535
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: dang well, I'm just asking. I'm just asking this. This

536
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: stuff comes to a head in nineteen seventy six the

537
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations, which is something you

538
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: hip me to years and years ago, Matt, the Church Committee.

539
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, they finally realize in seventy six that the

540
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 2: FBI was violating the law and had been violating the

541
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 2: law in several operations under co intel pro. Pretty rough stuff.

542
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 2: So the stated aim right of co intel pro when

543
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 2: they go into an office and they're like, okay, well

544
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 2: this is what contel pro is gonna do. We're going

545
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: to prevent violence, and that's really what it is. But

546
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 2: some of these the actions that they took during this

547
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 2: it arguably promoted violence between not not between the FBI

548
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 2: and other groups, but between the groups that the FBI

549
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 2: is surveilling under co intel Pro, specifically the Black Panthers

550
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:01,239
Speaker 2: and several other rival organizations. We mentioned this in our

551
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 2: video that we made god years ago, I don't even

552
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 2: know when that was, but we talk about two other groups,

553
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 2: the United Slaves and the Blackstone Rangers, who are two

554
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: other I say similar groups, but they're very different in

555
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 2: many ways. But it's these two other groups were then

556
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 2: having major conflicts with the Black Panthers because of the

557
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:23,720
Speaker 2: actions taken by the FBI.

558
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: Yes, and the FBI did not want these groups to

559
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: unify in the eyes of the In the eyes of

560
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,720
Speaker 1: the bureau, these groups were similar enough that they should

561
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: be kept apart. They were considered trouble makers right and

562
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: the FBI also worked ardently to prevent prominent BPP members

563
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: from making public appearances. According to Noam Chompsky, who I

564
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,320
Speaker 1: know it can be a controversial author for some people.

565
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: Cointelpro eventually expanded to include political assassinations. The reason we say,

566
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: according to nom Chomski, is because even today you will

567
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: quickly go down a rabbit hole of various you know what,

568
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: I'm going to call them apologetics. I'm gonna call them

569
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 1: various attempts at rationalization. Okay, of assassination. Okay, the official

570
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,439
Speaker 1: story right here, we can just give you the blow

571
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: by blow back to the death of Fred Hampton. Supporters

572
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: of the party claimed Hampton was assassinated, and that the

573
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: government assassinated Hampton because they feared he could become a visible,

574
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: unifying leader and icon, a figurehead of the black power movement.

575
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: So how did he actually die?

576
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 2: We'll get to that right after a word from our sponsor.

577
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: And we're back.

578
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 2: In the early.

579
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 4: Morning hours of December fourth, nineteen sixty nine, eight Cook

580
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 4: County Police officers, who were acting under instructions from the

581
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 4: Cook County States Attorney's Office, approached the West Side Chicago

582
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 4: headquarters of the Black Panthers. As you might imagine in

583
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 4: a raid type situation, there was another group of officers

584
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 4: that approached from the back. Everyone inside was still asleep,

585
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 4: including Fred Hampton. Inside what was you say headquarters? And

586
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 4: it was really it was an apartment. It was a flat.

587
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 4: There were nine people still asleep. This is in the

588
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 4: very early morning hours before the sun had even risen.

589
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:38,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crowded apartment, first floor. Nineteen guns in the apartment,

590
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: more than a thousand rounds of ammunition. The way that

591
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: the Tribune reported the series of events was that this

592
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 1: was a national hate group known for their revolutionary politics,

593
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: more importantly for shooting police officers. There were cop killers.

594
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 1: That's how this was reported.

595
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 4: Right, Is there any sand to that, Like I mean,

596
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 4: is there maybe some kind of conflict between police and

597
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 4: Black Panthers that resulted and a police officer being killed,

598
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 4: and they spun it into these are cop murdering savages.

599
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 2: You know, I don't have the reporting right here with

600
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 2: me or the police reporting, but into my mind, for

601
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 2: the Chicago Tribune to print that for killing cops, I

602
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 2: would say that at least a few instances occurred.

603
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are claims that there were thirty five police

604
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: officers who were murdered by the Black Panthers and the

605
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 1: subsequent Black Liberation Army across the sixties, seventies, and eighties.

606
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: So there were cops who did die. They were shot,

607
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 1: and it's important that we mentioned this. People were dying.

608
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:56,280
Speaker 1: It's easy and tempting, perhaps for some people to get

609
00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 1: caught in the game of equivocation. Yeah, or to forget

610
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 1: that there are actual human lives at stake, you know

611
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: what I mean. So we can only imagine that of

612
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: the six officers in the back door and the eight

613
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,919
Speaker 1: officers in the front, several of them may have thought

614
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: they were on a mission of dare I say, vengeance? Right, So,

615
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 1: at about four forty five am, a sergeant Daniel Growth

616
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: knocked on the front door of the apartment. There was

617
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: no answer, so he knocked with his gun and presumably

618
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 1: shouted yeah. Presumably shouted yeah. Then they busted in the door.

619
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 1: The next seven minutes of gunfire become one of the

620
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 1: most intensely debated and disputed incidents of the entire decade.

621
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, there was a federal grand jury instigation that found

622
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 4: that the police fired in the neighborhood of ranging between

623
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 4: eighty three to ninety shots.

624
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, into this apartment.

625
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 4: And this is a small again, this is an apartment

626
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 4: in Chicago. This is gonna that would just be chaos.

627
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 4: I would fear for the lives of the neighbors.

628
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 1: And again the one of the nineteen guns in the

629
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: apartment owned by the VPP. One shotgun discharged once there

630
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:27,320
Speaker 1: was one shot fired.

631
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty it's pretty rough, pretty damning.

632
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 1: Actually, after the shooting stopped, Fred Hampton was dead at

633
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 1: twenty one and a party leader from Peoria named Mark

634
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,240
Speaker 1: Clark twenty two was also shot fatally.

635
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 4: And I believe the grand jury found that he was

636
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 4: the one who who discharged that one shotgun blast.

637
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 1: Right, he was as he was set to be security, right,

638
00:39:55,480 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: And now we returned to William O'Neill, Panther and informant.

639
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: People didn't originally know the extent of his involvement with

640
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: the FBI, isn't that.

641
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it wasn't until so this occurred. The death

642
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 2: occurred in nineteen sixty nine, and his role wasn't revealed

643
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:22,760
Speaker 2: until nineteen seventy three. And yeah, it's pretty rough actually.

644
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 2: So we mentioned that he was a member of the

645
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,240
Speaker 2: Black Panther Party. He was on the inside working closely

646
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 2: with Fred Hampton as well as Mark Clark, and he

647
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 2: was simultaneously serving as an informant for the FBI. He

648
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 2: would send information to the FBI. And by the way,

649
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 2: he's a teenager at this time. He's a young guy

650
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 2: when he's starting out working with these guys.

651
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: It's a tragedy. These people were so young.

652
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Among the things that he sent to the FBI,

653
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 2: the primary thing I guess that people focus on is

654
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,720
Speaker 2: a floor plan for this apartment that was eventually raided.

655
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 2: His cover was blown and at one point there I

656
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,439
Speaker 2: believe it was I believe it was seventy three when

657
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 2: his cover was blown, but I am not completely positive.

658
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 2: It might have been earlier than that. I do not, unfortunately,

659
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 2: have that specific information. But he ended up going into

660
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 2: the Federal Witness Protection Program. We can say it here.

661
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 2: His name at the time or when he went into

662
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 2: the program was William Hart, and he moved out to California,

663
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 2: and then eventually he moved back to Chicago in nineteen

664
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 2: eighty four. And the reason we're talking about O'Neil in

665
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 2: this way is because in January of nineteen ninety, on

666
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 2: Martin Luther King Junior Day, he actually took his own

667
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 2: life by running out into traffic. And we know this

668
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 2: because he had an uncle named Ben Hurd who was

669
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 2: with him that day. And his story is told by

670
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 2: the Chicago Reader and that's what we're reading about here,

671
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 2: and specifically, this guy ben Heard has some insight into

672
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 2: O'Neill's life.

673
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 1: Yes, he learned of O'Neill's work with the FBI shortly

674
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: after the death of Fred Hampton in nineteen sixty nine,

675
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 1: and per ben Heard, O'Neil denied everything that he was

676
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: asked about, and Heard says, I thought about some of

677
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: the things he did and said I asked him, but

678
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: he denied it. And then later O'Neil opened up, told

679
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 1: his uncle he'd been in trouble for everything from car

680
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 1: theft to kidnapping and torture and so on and listen,

681
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 1: pretty heavy things, pretty heavy things. Heard says that his

682
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: nephew told him they had tied someone up and were

683
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: pouring hot water over his head. They're trying to get

684
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: him to do something. So an FBI agent told O'Neil

685
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: he would take care of all of it if he

686
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: turned if he infiltrated the panthers, and Heard believe that

687
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: O'Neill had regrets, right.

688
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:03,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's pretty safe to say.

689
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 4: So he went on to say he was sorry that

690
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 4: he did what he ended up doing and that he

691
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 4: it was his impression that this was an FBI raid

692
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 4: of the house, But the FBI gave it over to

693
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 4: the state's attorney and then state police local law enforcement

694
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 4: took the reins. From there, they killed Fred Hampton and

695
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 4: in this person's estimation, and made sure that he was dead.

696
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a crucial point here. O'Neil, according to his

697
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: own statements before his death, O'Neill thought this was just going.

698
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:42,879
Speaker 2: To be a raid.

699
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: Maybe people would get arrested for possession of firearms or

700
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 1: some sort of violation of possession laws. Right, Maybe it

701
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: would have been a drug possession possibly, right. Heck, you know,

702
00:43:58,040 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 1: if they were looking for something, maybe it would have

703
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,359
Speaker 1: been violation of the fire code. Yeah, I don't know.

704
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 2: I mean, the biggest thing is the firearms charges. You

705
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:09,720
Speaker 2: probably have sent them to prison on just firearm charges.

706
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 2: But that's not how it went down.

707
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: Right, So from O'Neill's perspective. Now, as far as we

708
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: know today, O'Neill did not say that the FBI on

709
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 1: records say that the FBI lied to him, but they

710
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 1: did say originally that this was simply going to be

711
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: a raid. And he was with his nephew the morning

712
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 1: after the raid in Hampton's apartment and he saw the

713
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:46,839
Speaker 1: he saw the aftermath.

714
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so there were papers strown all over the floor,

715
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 2: blood all over. There was a trail of blood from

716
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 2: where they the police had dragged Fred's body and William

717
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 2: O'Neil in this case, Bill, he says, just stood there

718
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 2: in shock and he never thought it would come to this,

719
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 2: like all of his involvement with the FBI, like we

720
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 2: keep saying, he didn't think it would be a massacre.

721
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 2: And that's only to speak to this person who has

722
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 2: been i guess reviled throughout history now at this point

723
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 2: as being the guy that set up Fred Hampton painted

724
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 2: as Judas. Yeah, and you know, there's two sides of it.

725
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 2: In a way, he was, but in another way, he

726
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: didn't understand.

727
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 1: And to be very clear, to be crystal clear, the

728
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: FBI actively conspired to assassinate, or to neutralize, at the

729
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: very least a twenty one year old boy for his

730
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: political beliefs because they saw it as a threat to

731
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 1: both the economic and the racial or social status quo

732
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 1: of the United States. This also occurred during the Vietnam era,

733
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,320
Speaker 1: wherein Hampton and many others like him would be lumped

734
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: together as potentially existential threats to the solvency of the nation, right,

735
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 1: because this is again this stuff sounds so crazy. It

736
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: sounds like people getting in a bubble and getting carried away.

737
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 1: This bubble was real.

738
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:18,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there was something in the outline here,

739
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,280
Speaker 4: Ben that you didn't end up saying. But our buddies,

740
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 4: the culture Kings, have a phrase they use where it's

741
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 4: talking about messing with the money. And that's when the

742
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 4: government starts really paying attention, you know, when I get

743
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 4: upsetting the apple cart in a way that affects economics.

744
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: I did put that in and yes, in a shout

745
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 1: out to Jaikis and Edgar. I didn't originally say it

746
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,479
Speaker 1: because I think we still owe them a song.

747
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 4: We do, and I'm gonna I'm going to at least

748
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 4: make the track for this next one. I don't claim

749
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,720
Speaker 4: to be see, but I can definitely make some beats.

750
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 4: So let's yes, let's I commit to that. You're great

751
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 4: at that too, Thanks for the gift, fantastic.

752
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 2: MC, I say put out in twenty twenty just to

753
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 2: surprise amount of nowhere. Yeah.

754
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: Oh, and call it hindsight.

755
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we know they don't listen to the show,

756
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 4: so it's gonna be abo.

757
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: We should have them back on. I had a lot

758
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,320
Speaker 1: of fun in the Michael Jordan episode.

759
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 4: Oh I wasn't around for that one, that's right. I

760
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 4: forgot they were on. Maybe they did listen to the show.

761
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 4: What am I saying?

762
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 2: Hey, guys, I was gonna say, you missed out. It

763
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 2: was actually really great. I'm sure it was.

764
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 1: They're great people as far as we know. They are

765
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:29,359
Speaker 1: not elements of co Intel Pro. True, and hopefully either

766
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 1: of you guys. But it's like witch hunt rules, right, Like,

767
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 1: if you tell me you're not, that's more evidence that

768
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: you are.

769
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you'd have to say no.

770
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 4: And it's also, I'm sure we've said this before, a

771
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 4: complete myth that if you ask an undercover cop, if

772
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 4: they're an undercover cop, they don't have to tell you.

773
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 1: It's a total myth. They can commit crimes with you. Yeah,

774
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:53,479
Speaker 1: it's in my five rules for sure. And people would

775
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 1: say that's for greater good, And that's the argument, right

776
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: that I'm succeeded in pitching co Intel pro and in

777
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: violating the laws and the rights of US citizens.

778
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 5: And taking the lives and taking the lives taking the

779
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 5: one thing that cannot be returned, and to this day,

780
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 5: officially the FBI, the Justice Department, the Chicago Police Force,

781
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 5: they reject claims of political skullduggery.

782
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: They say that the raid was unfortunate, it was not

783
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 1: the ideal outcome, but on their side, it was conducted

784
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 1: correctly into the letter of the law. We're conducting a

785
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: raid to find illegal firearms to neutralize a threat. In

786
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,800
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one, however, an activist group called the Citizens

787
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: Commissioned to Investigate the FBI stole co intel Pro documents.

788
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:52,439
Speaker 1: They stole the paperwork from a field office. And this

789
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: is how, this is how co intel Pro became a

790
00:48:55,640 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 1: public thing. Had they not conducted that raid, you see

791
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 1: the parallels here. Have they not conducted that illegal raid,

792
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:08,720
Speaker 1: then it is possible, if not plausible, that co intel

793
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 1: Pro would remain a myth and.

794
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:16,240
Speaker 2: A rumor and a conspiracy theory, an unproven conspiracy theory

795
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 2: even today.

796
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 1: Yes, in April of the same year. By the way,

797
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy one, the FBI officially terminated cointel Pro.

798
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: Yet numerous critics of the US government believe that programs

799
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 1: like this never really go away. The name's change. But

800
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 1: like Doctor Manhattan says in Watchmen, nothing nothing ever ends.

801
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,800
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, have you guys seen there's a Watchman series

802
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 4: that's coming to HBO. It looks a lot less shiny

803
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 4: than the Zack Snyder movie.

804
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 2: Less shiny.

805
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:46,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I felt like the Zach.

806
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 4: Snyder movie was a little like overly.

807
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 1: Polished every scene of painting.

808
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, kind of this one, like what's his name? Rorschach's

809
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 4: mask is literally just like a sack with kind of

810
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 4: like you know, well, their prequels, right, I think maybe no,

811
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:02,320
Speaker 4: I think it's the I don't I don't know. I

812
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 4: don't think it's.

813
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 2: Right.

814
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 1: I don't know that it is.

815
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 4: I think it's I think it might even be either

816
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,320
Speaker 4: a deeper exploration of the series with more of that,

817
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 4: because come on, you need more than a movie to

818
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 4: really like go deep into that book, right, there's so

819
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 4: much stuff.

820
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 1: In there that they couldn't put in.

821
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 2: Dude, I just rewatched it, and he holds up.

822
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 1: I didn't like it.

823
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 2: I don't know. I loved it, like it?

824
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 1: Love it?

825
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 2: You love this, okay, all right? I don't know, And

826
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 2: maybe it is just a nostalgia.

827
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 4: I think the reason for me was that that was

828
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 4: such a formative graphic. That was the first graphic novel

829
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 4: I ever read where I was like, oh, I see

830
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 4: what graphic novels can accomplish, And it was just like

831
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 4: mind blowing to me. So I felt like it was

832
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 4: very sacred to me and to see someone try to

833
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:41,800
Speaker 4: do I felt like it was a valiant effort. But

834
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 4: I also didn't really care for Zack Snyder's style anyway.

835
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 1: Alan Moore hated it. Yeah, yeah, Alan Moore is like,

836
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:48,720
Speaker 1: I don't think he watched.

837
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 4: He probably didn't even know he he he he uh

838
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 4: does write excellent comics for fun, but I think it's.

839
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:01,319
Speaker 1: To support his main hobby is me passion, which is

840
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 1: just hating stuff.

841
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 2: Oh geez. It's just interestingly enough here in this show

842
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 2: is not brought to you by Watchman or HBO. Just

843
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 2: so you know that if you go to HBO dot

844
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,360
Speaker 2: com slash Watchman, the first thing you see is nothing

845
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 2: ever ends.

846
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the little blurb. Oh and Trent Reznor and

847
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 4: Atticus Ross doing the music. That's pretty dope. And it's

848
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 4: a show run by Damon Lindeloff, who I believe did Lost.

849
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: That's correct, along with jj Abrams and unlike doctor Manhattan's quote,

850
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 1: unlike his observation in the fictional world of Watchman, this

851
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 1: love it or hate it is the reality in which

852
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 1: we have collectively lived for the span of this episode,

853
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 1: and some things do end, namely this episode, but not

854
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 1: our show. We hope that you enjoyed this cursory journey

855
00:51:56,719 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 1: into the murky murky, morally problematic, ethically bankrupt world of

856
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 1: domestic intelligence. We hope that, regardless of whether or not

857
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 1: you agree with the views of various groups mentioned in

858
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: this show, we hope that you can agree that the

859
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 1: loss of any human life is a tragedy. We also

860
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:27,359
Speaker 1: want to know if you think Cointelpro really ended, do

861
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 1: you think it's still around, and if so, in what iteration?

862
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:37,720
Speaker 1: Do you have a story or a particularly suspicious death

863
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 1: that you think deserves more attention. Let us know. You

864
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 1: can find us on Facebook, you can find us on Instagram,

865
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:47,280
Speaker 1: you can find us on Twitter. We are conspiracy stuff

866
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: at any number of those, and you can meet the

867
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,959
Speaker 1: best part of the show, your fellow listeners on our

868
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 1: Facebook community page. Here's where it gets crazy. Matt will not,

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00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 1: for various reasons, on sketchy reasons, reveal his personal Instagram Noel,

870
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 1: and I will I am at Ben.

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00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 4: Bowling and I'm at Embryonic Insider. And if I'm not mistaken, Matt,

872
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 4: you sort of dropped a few clues last time. You're

873
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:11,759
Speaker 4: gonna keep it on the DL like that.

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00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 2: I am at an egg shaped object, the Twitter egg.

875
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 1: You're just the Twitter me, the whole anonymous Twitter user.

876
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:24,839
Speaker 1: But what if somebody doesn't care for the Internet, you guys.

877
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 4: Well then I don't know how you're getting by in

878
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 4: life these days.

879
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: But no, you know what, that's not true.

880
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 4: There are ways you can there's telephony telophany to tellophany, remember.

881
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 2: You guys know, telophany, telophany, telophany jones, that's what.

882
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 1: They used to call it.

883
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 4: You guys back in the day, remember when, like the

884
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 4: early days of the Internet, where there would be like

885
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 4: a telephone teleophony suite in a like Prodigy or something

886
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 4: where you can make phone calls through the computer.

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00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:56,359
Speaker 1: It was crazy phony literally phony web.

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00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 2: And that's the end of this classic episode. If you

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00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 2: have any any thoughts or questions about this episode, you

890
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 2: can get into contact with us in a number of

891
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:07,839
Speaker 2: different ways. One of the best is to give us

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00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 2: a call. Our number is one eight three three STDWYTK.

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00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 2: If you don't want to do that, you can send

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00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 2: us a good old fashioned email.

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00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 3: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

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00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:22,720
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

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00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:27,359
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:30,320
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.