1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily, and you're listening to Stuffed Mom 2 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 1: Never told you Today. We are so excited to be 3 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: joined virtually by one of my favorite authors, Jill Filipovic, 4 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: who's tuning in with us from Nairobi, Kenya, to talk 5 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: through what it means to have slash Is it possible 6 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: that there is such a thing as a feminist marriage? So, Jill, 7 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here, Thank you so 8 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: much for having me so Bridge and I have some 9 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: wildly different experiences that we're bringing to the table on 10 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: this one. Uh. In case our listeners didn't already preempt 11 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: that some of you might have seen on Instagram at 12 00:00:57,760 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: the start of the year that Brad the Boo and 13 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: I have just decided to hop into the institution of 14 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: marriage later this year, a decision that didn't we didn't 15 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: come to very easily or quickly by any means, especially 16 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,839 Speaker 1: as I wrestled with this topic from a feminist perspective 17 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: page by page right along with you, Jill, UH, and 18 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: I want to start by asking what caused you to 19 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: initially set out to write this book and explore that 20 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: intersection of feminism and marriage in your amazing book called 21 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: The h Spot the feminist pursuit of happiness. Well, I've 22 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: been writing about feminism for a long time, mostly on 23 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 1: the Internet, but for a variety of magazines and newspapers, 24 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: and kind of kept hitting up this, hitting up against 25 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: the same issues over and over again. And obviously, you know, 26 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: the feminist I believe in equality. That seems like an 27 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: important goal for the feminist movement. But it became pretty 28 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: clear eventually that what seemed to be holding women back 29 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:02,639 Speaker 1: on a broader scale wasn't necessarily that women weren't equal 30 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: to men um you know which, of course, it's still 31 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: not true, we still are not quite equal yet, but 32 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: that the world was set up in a way to 33 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: make men's lives easier according to sort of men's preferences 34 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,239 Speaker 1: and lifestyles. And you know anything, we see this everywhere 35 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: from our workplaces to our laws and our policies and 36 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: our debates over basic things when reproductive freedom, um. And 37 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: so to me, the question then sort of became, okay, well, 38 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: a feminist shouldn't be looking for equality, then what should 39 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: we be looking for? And you know, the answer, I 40 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: think was a world that was that is built taking 41 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: into account what it is that women want, and you 42 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: know what women want. I think that's what most people want, 43 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: which is a happy and contented life. Um. And so 44 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,239 Speaker 1: the book was looking at what it would look like 45 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: if we began to structure our universe around that goal 46 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: instead of just trying to become equal to men. Um 47 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: And marriage obviously is one of the institutions that I 48 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: found it fruitful to look at through that lens. So 49 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: I'm curious. I find that so interesting. What would that 50 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: look like? What would it look like if be structured 51 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: marriage and all these other social constructs around what women 52 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: want and what makes women happy. Yeah, So, I mean 53 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: one of the things that's challenging is kind of inventing 54 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: a universe that doesn't yet exist, right, So that was 55 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: that was the hardest part of the book. Um and 56 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: looking at marriage, I mean, there are a few things 57 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: that I was sort of fascinated to find in the research. Um. 58 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: You know, one is that women who are married tend 59 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: to be happier than women who aren't, um, which was 60 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: a little bit surprising to me, but sort of explained 61 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: by one of two things. You know. One of them 62 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: is perhaps people that are happier are more likely to 63 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: get married in the first place, And maybe the causation 64 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: goes in the other direction. UM. And then the just 65 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: being socially connected makes us happy. And so people that 66 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: you know are partnered, UM tend to have a greater 67 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: social universe and that contributes quite a bit to their 68 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: well being. UM. You know that said women who get 69 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: married later and so you know, have more dating experience, UM, 70 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: tend to have more financial resources, are a little bit 71 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: you know, more independent for a variety of reasons, those 72 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: women tend to have longer lasting marriages and better marriages 73 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: and more feminist marriages. UM. Women who continue working after 74 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: they have kids tend to be happier than those who don't. 75 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:31,919 Speaker 1: So you know, while marriage is this fairly traditional, not 76 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,799 Speaker 1: particularly in my opinion, feminist institution, these sort of feminist 77 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: ization of marriage has made people in marriages happier, which 78 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: I found really fascinating. That is really fascinating, and I 79 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: think it's important for our listeners and all of us 80 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:54,239 Speaker 1: here today to separate out marriage from wedding, right because 81 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: we could. Your two weeks out from your wedding in 82 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 1: Nairobi is so clearly you've got on board, uh with 83 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: the institution as a strident feminist that you are, and 84 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: you know, today's conversation just for all of our Sminthy 85 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: listeners who have been chatting with me on Instagram about 86 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: doing an episode around this when Brad Boo and I 87 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 1: announced our engagement. Yes, I would love to do a 88 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: whole series unpacking weddings and the wedding industrial complex and 89 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: feminism and marriage in so many ways if I had 90 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: more time, quite frankly, which we'll talk a little bit 91 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: more about in the episodes that follow, But today's conversation 92 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: is really about the institution and whether or not the 93 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: institution of marriage itself can be feminist. There's a quote 94 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 1: in your book, Jill, in a chapter that you call 95 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: wife that I found so profound or sort of so 96 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: it spoke straight to my experience as someone who, like you, 97 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: had pretty much accepted the idea that being single is 98 00:05:57,800 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: not a bad thing. And that's not what we're trying 99 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,799 Speaker 1: to say either. Right, despite the research around happiness and marriage, 100 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that being single resigns you to a 101 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: life of dissatisfaction. Right. And I don't know about you, 102 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: bridget if your thoughts on this, if you want to 103 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: chime in with your perspective here as a non engaged, 104 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 1: non married person. Um, I think it's an interesting conversation. 105 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 1: You may have gleaned that I have ambivalent feelings around marriage. 106 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: I'm not super excited about the idea of marriage. I've 107 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: never sort of thought of myself as someone who was like, 108 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: very very very happy to be married and wanted to 109 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: be a wife badly. And I think it's one of 110 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: those things where in popular culture were told that women 111 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 1: who don't get married are spinsters, are sad, or this 112 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: or that. And I think why Jill's work is so 113 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: interesting is that it can present a different model for 114 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: what marriage can be. Instead of this binary that like, oh, 115 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: cool girls don't want to get married, and if you 116 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: get married, you're so basic and this, and that you're 117 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: not really a feminist. I think Jill's work really opens 118 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: up a space where we can and you know, not 119 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: fall along those buyinarias well. That's exactly what this quote 120 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 1: from her chapter Wife is all about. So if you'll 121 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: indulge me, Jail, I'd love to read just a couple 122 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: of paragraphs here for a second. You wrote quote, I 123 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: had settled comfortably into my identity as a single woman, 124 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: and all the freedom and room for folly it brings 125 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: with it when getting married obscure this person an individual 126 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: who defines herself in large part by her autonomy and 127 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: self sovereignty. It's with this frame that I entered this 128 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: project wondering whether marriage actually makes women happy, or if 129 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: by its nature it subsumes women into their male partners, 130 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: and whether any of that changed when we expanded marriage 131 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: to include same sex couples. Can marriage ever be good 132 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: for women? And can marriage be feminist? And I think 133 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,679 Speaker 1: that's the question, right, that's really the question at hand. 134 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: What is the space between that binary that Bridget was 135 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: talking about that you sort of found in writing this book, Jail. Yeah, So, 136 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: I mean I think what Bridget raises is a really 137 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: interesting and important point. Um. Yes, we have these kind 138 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: of large scale studies on marriage and happiness, but obviously 139 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: there's quite a bit of individual variability within those numbers, right. 140 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: And you know one thing that folks who have researched, 141 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: who have done longevity studies so looked at, um a 142 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: particular group of people and kind of what brought them 143 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: satisfaction throughout the course of their lives. Women who led 144 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: unconventional and interesting lives, you know who didn't decide to 145 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: kind of go along with the norms of their time. 146 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: We're also some of the most content and the happiest 147 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: towards the end of their lives. Um, So there isn't 148 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: kind of one, you know, one size fits all model. 149 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: And I think feminism has done a really incredible job 150 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: of opening up, you know, the sort of universe of 151 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: opportunities for women. You know, that said the sort of 152 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: question I posed in the book, You know, can marriage 153 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: be feminists? Are? Are we living in an era where 154 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,599 Speaker 1: marriages are a feminist I think that we are slowly 155 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: getting there, Um, but I really don't think we are 156 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: there yet. I don't think most marriages are a feminist. 157 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: I don't think marriage and in itself is a feminist institution. Um, 158 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: you know, I'm entering into it anyway. I also don't 159 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: really think high heels are feminist, but I wear those, 160 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 1: like we all have to live our lives and do 161 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: things that are gonna bring us sort of contentment and 162 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: satisfaction and happiness, even if they don't completely fall in 163 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: line with our political ideals. Um but I do think 164 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: really engaging, you know, the questions of why we enter 165 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: into these institutions and what these institutions are and how 166 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: we can shift and change them to be better aligned 167 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: with our vision for what a good world looks like. 168 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: UM is a really crucial feminist project. So, Jill, I 169 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: just want to tease out something that you said just 170 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 1: a moment ago. So women who live unconventional lives, perhaps 171 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: dedicated to their craft, their art, their passion, who don't 172 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: get married, you're saying that they actually also report being 173 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: happy towards the end of their life. So if I 174 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: decide to go the root of being the single cookie 175 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: aunt who travels and writes and lives alone and has 176 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: a life full of other things that do not include 177 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: a spouse, I could be just as happy as my 178 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: married friends. Is that what you're saying? Definitely? I'm look, 179 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: if there was like a recipe for human happiness and 180 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: if we could all just kind of fit ourselves into 181 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: it and do it, we would have figured out it 182 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: a while ago. Um. You know that unfortunately doesn't exist. 183 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,559 Speaker 1: But you know, folks who have a deep sense of self, 184 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: who have a deep sense of purpose and who follow 185 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: that in their lives. You know, whatever form that takes, UM, 186 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: they do tend to be people who who are happier 187 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: than you know, folks who kind of just go with 188 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: the flow. I think that's so real because I know 189 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: so many people that and this speaks to I think 190 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: a good section of your book, so many people that 191 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: get married because they're sort of finished with dating. They've 192 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: reached a certain age in their in their life and 193 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: they're like, I need to settle down and I'm done 194 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 1: with the dating scene. I'm with someone who is fine, 195 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: I'm gonna marry them. And that seems like exactly what 196 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: you're talking about. This will go with the flow, as 197 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: if dating is musical shares and the music has stopped, 198 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: and the one that you're in front of that's the 199 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,239 Speaker 1: one that you have to pair up with for life. 200 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: And it does seem like this way of sort of 201 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: giving into a cultural shift and just going with the 202 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: flow and saying, I'm not thinking about what would actually 203 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: make me happy, and I'm not thinking about what actually 204 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: would ensure that my life is full of more of 205 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: what makes me happy. I am doing this because it 206 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: is a choice I'm making to sort you know, to 207 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 1: go with this well, Jill. In your book, you write 208 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: about that exact model of marriage, which is perfectly reasonable 209 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: and risk averse in terms of a choice for a 210 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 1: lot of people. Um, but it's this idea of I've 211 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 1: gotten to this point in my life, this is who 212 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,079 Speaker 1: I'm with. Their their dependable, they're kind. And you call 213 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: that the responsible partner marriage model a perfectly sensible thing, 214 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: but not quite for you. You You went on to write, 215 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: following that section quote, I would rather have a string 216 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: of loves and heartbreaks than marry someone fundamentally decent but 217 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: about whom I feel the least bit tepid. Bridget and 218 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: I may may not have read that exact quote over 219 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: one cocktail that we share last night after a long 220 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: day in the studio, as we talked about and sort 221 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: of wrestled with that concept of Mr orm is good enough. 222 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: And I guess my question for everybody here on the 223 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: podcast is how did you decide to get married h 224 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: and know that it wasn't because they were Mr good Enough? 225 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: I'm curious, Jill, And then Bridget about your opinions here. Yeah, 226 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: I mean for myself. You know, like I said in 227 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: the book, I don't think that this responsible marriage model 228 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: is a bad idea if what you want is a 229 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: partnership and a nuclear family and children and you know, 230 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: marriage is kind of a vehicle to that. You know, 231 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 1: I think that's a perfectly reasonable choice that a lot 232 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: of women make. Um, that was not appealing for me 233 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: for my life, and I fell especially as I got 234 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: into you know, kind of my late twenties and early thirties, 235 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: Not that there was a lot of social pressure on 236 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: me to get married, because I frankly didn't feel that 237 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: from either my family or my peer group, but that 238 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: there did seem to be a pressure to view relationships 239 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:19,599 Speaker 1: through the frame of is this person marriage material? Um? 240 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: You know am I And I sort of found myself 241 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: and you know, within my group of friends, um, sort 242 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: of not without intending to using that as a way 243 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: to evaluate people I was dating, and I think it 244 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: did sort of, you know, short circuit my ability to 245 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: really be kind of fully present and there in my 246 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: dating life as opposed to thinking, you know, eight steps ahead. Um. 247 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: So at some point I just totally took marriage off 248 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:48,839 Speaker 1: the table and you know, decided, look, this is is 249 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: something I'm that interested in. I doubt I'm going to 250 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: meet some you know, the chances that I meet somebody 251 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: that I actually want to marry are sort of so 252 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: so teeny tiny and small. Um, it's as impossible. So 253 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 1: I'm gonna just not look at men through this lens 254 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,719 Speaker 1: and then instead I will do what seems like it's enjoyable, 255 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: you know, until it's no longer enjoyable, and then I'll 256 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: move on. Um. And that works for a long time. 257 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 1: And you know, the sort of imperfect, not very good 258 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: dating advice answers that I got extraordinarily lucky. Um, And 259 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: I did happen to meet somebody that, you know, was 260 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: that kind of once in a lifetime if you're very 261 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: lucky kind of connection. Um. And and that changed my 262 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: thought process. And you know, but it was that specific relationship. 263 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: It wasn't you know, hitting a certain point in my life, 264 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: or wanting kids or kind of any of those other 265 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: kind of normal calculus. Is what you're saying is that 266 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: if you had not met your current partner, you wouldn't 267 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: have just picked somebody because of social pressure because you 268 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: wanted to have kids or this or that. You would 269 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: have continued what you were doing, which is like dating 270 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: and you know, having your heartbroken and feeling really into 271 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: people and you know, going through those those processes and 272 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: cycles until that didn't feel good anymore. Exactly. I mean, 273 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: if I hadn't met my current partner, I don't think 274 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: I probably would have ever gotten married. Who knows, not 275 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: to mention. In the book, you describe the fact that 276 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: he's the one who really expressed that marriage was important 277 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: to him about a year into your relationship, right right, exactly. 278 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: That's very similar to what happened to me. Just kind 279 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: of curiosity, how do you make that case? Because knowing Emily, 280 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: I know that your book kind of sold her on 281 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: the idea of marriage. So I'm gonna curious if we 282 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: follow that threadback. How did your partner sell you on 283 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: that idea? Yeah, I mean it was something we talked 284 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: about for a long time. You know. It was definitely 285 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: not like a decision that was made overnight. There was 286 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: no like surprise, you know, proposal. It was. It was 287 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: a very much like very talky, um kind of thing. 288 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: And you know, I think the way that we sort 289 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: of eventually came to the decision to do it was 290 00:15:55,680 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: this idea that this relationship is really extraordinary, really special, 291 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: and that we wanted to be family. Um. You know 292 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: that he certainly already felt like my family, but marriage 293 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: is kind of the pathway to formal recognition that we 294 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: have in the culture that we live in. UM. And 295 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: then you know, the relationship felt special enough that we 296 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: wanted we wanted it to be sort of socially distinguished 297 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: from you know, sort of other girlfriends and boyfriends we 298 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: had had before. And you know, again, perhaps marriage is 299 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: an imperfect vehicle for that, UM, but it's what we have. 300 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: And you know, the idea of getting to choose someone 301 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: to create this deep lifelong commitment with UM, you know, 302 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: it's totally terrifying, but you know, when it's someone who 303 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: who you want to kind of take that leap with UM, 304 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: it's also really exciting. And you know, after several months 305 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: of talking about it, you know, that got to a 306 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: point where I think we both felt really excited and 307 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: really good about you know, this exciting challenge. It's so 308 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: funny how we think of sort of quote unquote dream 309 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: engagement as he had a ring and this and that, 310 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: and it was so such a surprise what you described 311 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: as so much more pragmatic, as we had a lot 312 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: of serious conversations and came to an agreement that felt 313 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: right for us both. It wasn't Oh, he surprised me 314 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: at a red SOX game in front of everybody. Yeah, 315 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 1: that's that's one of the freakiest parts of the whole 316 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: marriage tradition, that we were not into it all. And Jill, 317 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: I'm like feverishly nodding over here as I was while 318 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: reading your book, because your experience spoke to me in 319 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: that you didn't have much trepidation about thinking about your 320 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: life with this person, which is kind of how I 321 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: felt about Brad the boo. We just sort of calmly 322 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: knew that this was a amazing partnership that we wanted 323 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: to keep leveling up together, you know, keep winning life 324 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: together like teammates. And I remember him stating, you know, 325 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: I really don't like it one of my friends get 326 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: married and say, well, it was no big deal, Like 327 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: there's nothing changed, nothing different about us now that we're married, 328 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: because marriage meant something really meaningful to him. And I 329 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 1: was like, whoa, what do you mean by that? And 330 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,959 Speaker 1: you know, that spun out year's worth of conversation to 331 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 1: the point where I wrestled with the institution because it 332 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: does have a pretty patriarchal past um and said, okay, 333 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: can we come up with an alternative? And I think 334 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: over the course of the last year. I read many 335 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: books actually, and had lots of conversations, but yours was 336 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: kind of the straw that broke the camel's back because 337 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 1: I couldn't come up with a good alternative, Like, we 338 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: could not figure out any other way to demarcate how 339 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: we felt about this relationship. So, like you, you know, 340 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 1: we're making it our own, We're retrofitting it to work 341 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 1: for us. Um But I want, I want to talk 342 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: more about the history behind marriage that makes that process 343 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: feel a little bit tortured for a feminist, or feel 344 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: a little challenging for a feminist. When we come right 345 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 1: back after this quick break and we are back and 346 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 1: we're talking through the question, can there be such a 347 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 1: thing as a feminist marriage? We're certainly hoping so, at 348 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: least the two of us who are preparing to walk 349 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: down the aisle this year. Jill, in your book, one 350 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 1: of the things I love the most is how much 351 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: of a history buff you are. The whole concept of 352 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: the American foundation in those inalienable rights to life, liberty, 353 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: and the pursuit of happiness come up time and again 354 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:43,199 Speaker 1: as you write about the history of how our country 355 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: thinks about women and happiness, and as it pertains to marriage. 356 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: I found it really interesting when you quoted Elizabeth Katie Stanton, 357 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: a legendary suffragette and overall badass woman of history, who 358 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: wrote to her friend in eighteen fifty five quote, did 359 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: it ever enter into the mind of a man that 360 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: a woman too had an inalienable right to life, liberty 361 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: and the pursuit of her individual happiness? And she proclaimed 362 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: at that point that the institution of marriage itself was 363 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: the primary feminist battleground upon which our independence must be 364 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: fought and one, So, how far has marriage as an 365 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: institution come in terms of pursuing gender equality or getting 366 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: more egalitarian? Yeah, I mean it's coming incredibly far. There's 367 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: a good reason why marriage was the locus of kind 368 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 1: of early feminist ire. Um. When a woman entered into 369 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: a marriage, she essentially ceased to be an individual person. Um, 370 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: you know, she became more or less under the cover 371 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 1: of a man. So she could not own her own property. Um. 372 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: You know, once once credit cards existed, which was obviously 373 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: after after Elizabeth Katie Stanton's time, Um, she couldn't get 374 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: a credit card under her own name. When women couldn't 375 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: open their own bank accounts, Um, marital rape was largely legal. 376 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: Domestic violence was some thing that the police kind of 377 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,360 Speaker 1: looked the other way on. UM. So you know, as 378 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: soon as a woman got married, she essentially ceded most 379 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: of her rights to be a person. Um. And so 380 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: that's what a lot of the early feminists were really 381 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,479 Speaker 1: focused on and they made They did incredible work in 382 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 1: changing a lot of not just the laws, but also 383 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: the kind of social norms around marriage. UM. You know. 384 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: And so today it's it's illegal to rape your wife. 385 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 1: Obviously it's illegal to beat your wife. UM. Men and 386 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: women have equal rights to shared property. Women can have 387 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: their own bank accounts. Um. You know, a marital status 388 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:41,479 Speaker 1: doesn't render you at least legally dependent on your husband. UM. 389 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 1: So we have made great strides, you know. That said, 390 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 1: I don't think we are yet to a place who 391 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: are marriage is truly egalitarian, or where most marriages are egalitarian. Um. 392 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: You know within and I think this gets exacerbated when 393 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,360 Speaker 1: you have kids. But you know, for most women who 394 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: are bread or partnered, it is women who still end 395 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: up doing more work around the house. It is women 396 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: who take on more of you know, the kind of 397 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: both physical and psychological labor of running a household, and 398 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: you know, those things are they're harder to change. You 399 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: can't legislate that. That that has to come from kind 400 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 1: of profound cultural shifts about what we think men are 401 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: and what we think women are. Um and that's a 402 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: very slow process totally. That reminds me so much of 403 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 1: one of the role Overload episodes we did with Tiffany DOOFU, 404 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: and she talks about how the little ways that in 405 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 1: her marriage they have these almost sort of radical acts 406 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: where they're helping others outside of their marriage rethink the 407 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: cultural expectations of who does what. And so one of 408 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: the examples that she gave in that interview was that 409 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: when one of her children's classmates has a party or something, 410 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 1: they usually call her and to make the arrangements of 411 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 1: you know, as your kid gonna come, and she'll say, actually, 412 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: my husband, he's in charge of the social schedule of 413 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: our kids, please talk to him. And that, even though 414 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: that seems like a release small thing, that even just 415 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 1: sort of punting the question and saying the proper person 416 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: to talk to is actually my husband, not me, because 417 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: I'm the woman, actually helps people rethink and they go, oh, 418 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: they have they have really built these models for what 419 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 1: works for them within their marriage, not along what culture 420 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,360 Speaker 1: and society say should be. You know, the man's job, 421 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 1: the woman's job, etcetera. Yeah, good luck doing that with 422 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: wedding vendors too, because I've heard from women who are like, 423 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: I cannot get this wedding vendor. This is actually one 424 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: of my best friends who's also getting married this year, 425 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 1: can't get the wedding vendors. She's talking you to see 426 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 1: see her fiancee who happens to be a dude, And 427 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: it's like they can't fathom that a guy could be 428 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: in charge of any of this labor. And it's frustrating 429 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: not even just be in charge, give a crap about it. 430 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: But I think that the and I know this is 431 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 1: not an episode about weddings, but I think the expectation 432 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: is that men don't care, they don't don't don't want 433 00:23:57,960 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: an active part in this, and that you need to 434 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: talk to the woman because she's the only person who's 435 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 1: going to care. In a heterosexual pairing. Yeah, I mean, 436 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 1: we clearly have room to grow in terms of equality 437 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: in a marriage. The weird thing is, and you go 438 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: on to write about this further on in the book Jill. 439 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: One of the traditions that troubles me the most, I 440 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: think causes a lot of feminist angst amongst my friends 441 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: is the question of surnames, last names. You know, I 442 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 1: like you at one point thought, okay, it's there must 443 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: be tons of women who are keeping their name after 444 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: getting married, or there must be tons of men who 445 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 1: are taking on their wives names. And that is not 446 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: what you found, Isn't that right? Right? I mean, there's 447 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: the overwhelming majority of women. Do you still take their 448 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 1: husband's names? Um? That number sort of decreased in the nineties, 449 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: and now it's actually been creeping back up. Um. And 450 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 1: the number of men who take their wives names is 451 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: like so small that researchers don't even really count it. UM. 452 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: So you know this kind of language around oh well, 453 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: it's a choice. I mean sure, but it's a choice 454 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: only women are really faced with, UM. And it's definitely 455 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: you know, men overwhelmingly only don't I mean don't even 456 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: think about it, and so they're not having to make 457 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: the choice. UM. And I mean to me that the 458 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: sort of like, oh, you know, we can all choose 459 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 1: our choices totally obscures you know, history and social pressure 460 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: and what these norms say about what marriage means for 461 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 1: women about you, versus what it means for men. Um. 462 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: You know, and I was saying earlier that you know, 463 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty years ago, a marriage meant totally seating 464 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 1: your identity to a man. Your name is the word 465 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 1: for your identity. You know. We know a chair is 466 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 1: a chair because we call it a chair. Um. We 467 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: know that I'm Jill Flipovich because my name is Jill Filipovic. 468 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: And the idea that when women marry that gets obscured, 469 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: that you know, you then become your identity shifts into 470 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: being a part of your male partner. Um. I mean 471 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: to me, it is kind of one of the most 472 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 1: obvious and sort of troubling incarnations of patriarchal authority out there, 473 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: and you know, sort of stunning to experience. It's always 474 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,160 Speaker 1: shocking to me, um, that that women do still take 475 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: their husband's names, and that men get you know, not 476 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: obviously not the person I'm marrying, and not a lot 477 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 1: of men that I know, but that you know, there 478 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: are a not insignificant number of men get really bent 479 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: out of shape about it if if their future wife 480 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: says she doesn't want to take their last name. Yeah, 481 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: I mean in your book you quote men saying like, 482 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: I would question my wife's commitment to being faithful if 483 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: she wouldn't take my last name, because you might be 484 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 1: holding onto this identity of her as a single woman, 485 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 1: to which I laughed out loud and also thought, this 486 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 1: person has deep seated insecurities and run away from marrying 487 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,439 Speaker 1: that person. I mean, it's a weird issue because there 488 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: are plenty of self identified feminists who take on their 489 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: their husband's name. Um, what are you planning on doing. 490 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: I'm planning on keeping my name my last name, especially 491 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: in the age of Google, which is another argument that 492 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: Jill makes in the book. My name is associated with 493 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 1: all of my professional accomplishments thus far, and I have 494 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: no interest in rebranding myself. But I'll give I'll be 495 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:19,880 Speaker 1: completely candid here and say Brad has expressed like this invitation. 496 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 1: He said, I would love to invite you to become 497 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: um part of his family's last name. There's definitely conversations 498 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: happening about how we can find a way to share 499 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: in each other's identity. But if I'm adopting his last 500 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: name into my middle name, perhaps, which is something we're 501 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 1: talking about. He's adopting my last name into his middle name. 502 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: That's what Yoko ono and John Lynney why I Um. 503 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: What's funny is that I had a very early model 504 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: for this in my life, which is my mother. Many 505 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: of you know I've talked about her before because she's 506 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: the best. She's a doctor, and her professional name is 507 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: her maiden name. So my mom in a professional setting 508 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: is doctor care Lynn Boone. In her personal life and 509 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: other capacities, she's Carolyn Todd. And when I asked her, Mom, 510 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: why do you have you know? Why are you basically 511 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,919 Speaker 1: two people? She always says, well, your father didn't have 512 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: anything to do with me going to medical school. He 513 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: didn't earn a medical degree. That was me, Because that 514 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: before I even really knew in he's not gonna he's 515 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: not gonna be doctor Todd. I'm the ductor, not him. 516 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 1: And I loved that because she really underscored for me 517 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: at an early age that her professional accomplishments were linked 518 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: with her name, and those professional achievements started when she 519 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: was Carolyn Boone, not when she was Carolyn Todd. And 520 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: so that it has caused some confusion in our in 521 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: our in our world. But she sticks by it, and 522 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: I think it's a cool thing to own that identity. 523 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: It's interesting. I mean, I wonder, Jill, can you shine 524 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: any more light on a bright spot? I know. One 525 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: of the most interesting parts of the book is when 526 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: you featured a couple, Howard and Mary Beth, who you say, 527 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: amongst opposite sex couples, many of whom you like, searched 528 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: for the most egalitarian marriage, you could find that they 529 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: were sort of it. What did you see Howard and 530 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: Mary Beth doing in their family to really strive for 531 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: equality in marriage? Well, and what I saw them doing 532 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: was being really communicative about who was taking on what 533 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: and the thing. The reason that I decided to go 534 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: in profile how already married Beth is because Howard is 535 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: one of the few men, frankly, the only man I 536 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: could find who had himself scaled back on work when 537 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: they had kids. Um. You know, it's very easy to 538 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: find women who once they have kids, you know, decide 539 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: they want more balance and take on fewer hours, or 540 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: take on part time work, um, you know, or go 541 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: to the eleven million panel on women and work life balance. Um. 542 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: And it's much harder to find men who even think 543 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: about those things. I think the best changing. You know, 544 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: I think men increasingly say that they do want better 545 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: balance in their lives. Um. But that has very traditionally 546 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: been and you know, kind of a women in the 547 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: workplace issue. And so I was trying to find a 548 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: couple where they had had children, and a man had said, 549 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: you know what, I want my life to look different 550 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: than it does. And that was Howard Um. You know, 551 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: and he's uh in talking to him. You know, it's 552 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: very funny because he sort of jokes that, you know, 553 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: he was basically put on the mommy track at work. Um. 554 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: And he's a consultant and in sort of his uh 555 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: universe at the office, it's all women and him, um, 556 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: kind of in his department. UM. And that he's you know, 557 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: been sort of criticized, not often but sometimes by colleagues 558 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: who are kind of like, you know, why are you 559 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: not trying to climb the corporate letter while you're not 560 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: trying to make more money? Um? And you know, his 561 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: take is like these people are all crazy. Like I 562 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: get to go coach my daughter's soccer team on Saturday, 563 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: you know, I get to make dinner with my wife 564 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: and kids. Every night, I get to stake the dog 565 00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: for a walk in the morning. Like, that's that's a life. 566 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: You know, Why would I want to be spending that 567 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: time in the office, you know, even if it was 568 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: even if it was in exchange for a little bit 569 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: more money. Um, you know that said how a wounded 570 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: Marybeth or you know, upper middle class like callar professionals, 571 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: and so there's certainly, you know, a lot of privilege 572 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: inherent to being able to make that choice. Um, that's 573 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: not a choice that many working class families have on offer. 574 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: That's such a good point. I want to talk more 575 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: about class and marriage after this quick break and we're 576 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,479 Speaker 1: back now, Jill, you're just making an excellent point around 577 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: what marriage looks like along class lines. Can you speak 578 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: more to that. Sure. So one of the things that 579 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: makes marriages and just sort of like generally more stable 580 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: is economic stability. Um. So we know that educated couples 581 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: tend to get married later, tend to have happier marriages, 582 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: and tend to divorce less often. Um. You know that 583 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: it's not because the educated or the kind of elites 584 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: are better at marriage. It's because economic stress puts a 585 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: lot of stress on marriage itself. Um, And so it's something, 586 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: you know, especially when we're sort of trying to think 587 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: about in our very politically polarized universe, how we can 588 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: work across the aisle. I mean, to me, it's sort 589 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: of a big glaring hole that you don't see the 590 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: religious right in the United States really pushing for the 591 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: kind of policies that would enable stable marriages. Um. You know, 592 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: those policies would be things like increasing the social safety net, um, 593 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: improving the education system, you know, and essentially giving more 594 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: couples opportunities both to be financially independent on their own 595 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: and also to have kind of more fruitful egalitarian partnerships. 596 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: I mean, that seems to be missing from our political conversation. 597 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: Isn't that interesting in terms of the strange bedfellows that 598 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,719 Speaker 1: might be involved in that kind of a platform. Because 599 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: there's a whole host of hardcore right wing folks who 600 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: want to bring back marriage and sort of force marriage 601 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: upon people as though marriage is the cause behind economic stability. 602 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: And then of course there's a whole bunch of liberals 603 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: and economists who would say we need to give people 604 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: a stronger social safety net so that marriages can flourish 605 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 1: with less economic anxiety. That makes I don't know, marrying 606 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: a man who was displaced economically in the Great Recession, 607 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: who you know, for whom trucking and logging and all 608 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: kinds of industries like mining is are no longer pathways 609 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: to a stable middle class life anymore. For whom, uh 610 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: you know, their economic stress becomes a burden on a 611 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: lot of women who are weighing whether or not to 612 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: marry this person who might be a financial drain on 613 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: their families. Right, Like, it's a weird crossover from very 614 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: right wing family values. I put that in air quotes 615 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: politicians who want to sort of push marriage and the 616 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: economists who would say, yeah, but in order for marriages 617 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: to flourish, we need people to have stronger stability and 618 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: access to a safe middle class life, right. And I mean, 619 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: we've seen this played out many times over, you know, 620 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: with kind of religious marriage promotion programs that overwhelmingly don't work. 621 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,399 Speaker 1: UM and in actually one case, made marriage is less 622 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: successful versus For example, there was a program I believe 623 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: in Minnesota and I want to say it was in 624 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: the late nineties, UM that essentially would let people keep 625 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,399 Speaker 1: most of their welfare benefits even if they got married. So, 626 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 1: as it stands, a lot of low income folks who 627 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,319 Speaker 1: are dependent on welfare don't get married because then you 628 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,879 Speaker 1: have a combined household income that will put you over 629 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: you know, the sort of cut off through Recitas benefits, 630 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: so it really disincentivizes marriage. So this program allowed couples 631 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: to retain most of their benefits even if they married. 632 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: And what they' sound was not only were couples obviously 633 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 1: more likely than to get married, but their relationships for 634 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 1: more stable and actually women ended up being more likely 635 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: to leave abusive relationships under that program than they were otherwise. 636 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: And you know, then, of course welfare reform ended up 637 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 1: gutting it in Minnesota got rid of it um and 638 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 1: you know, it was certainly not something that was championed 639 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: by the right. But you know, I think that that 640 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: tells us a lot about what people need, as you know, 641 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: a kind of basic foundation to grow a stable and 642 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: happy relationship on It's also a reminder that personal choice 643 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 1: is not the only thing that impacts marriages in this country. Yeah, 644 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: I think we so often, until you've alluded to this 645 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: in this interviewed in your book, I think we so 646 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: often think that these things are just choices and it's 647 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: all personal, and it's just do you whatever you want 648 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: to do, and we obscure the fact that oftentimes they 649 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:02,720 Speaker 1: have very real, non personal grounding, whether it's you know, legislation, law, economics, 650 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: these aren't just personal choices, as much as we like 651 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: to think that they are. Yeah, it's it's easy to 652 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 1: forget how much public policy influences marriage. And it's also 653 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 1: easy to forget that, you know, the changing choices and 654 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: constrained choices around marriage don't all fall on women's shoulders either. 655 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: It seems like there's a lot that men can do 656 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: uh in order to help make marriages more egalitarian too, 657 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: And in fact, there seems to be this sort of 658 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 1: tension you allude to throughout the book when you write 659 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 1: the feminist marriage revolution is a stalled one, and you say, 660 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: while most women today exist in a marital landscape that 661 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: is far preferable to the options of a century ago, 662 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,280 Speaker 1: they're still in a strange limbo where men's actions haven't 663 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: totally caught up to women's expectations. What do you mean 664 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: by that, Joel, Well, there there remains a pretty significant gap, 665 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:02,360 Speaker 1: um and who feminism has really influenced. Um. So, for example, 666 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 1: there's been several studies out of Harvard Business School looking 667 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 1: at what business school students expect their relationships to look like. 668 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 1: And you know, what they find is that men and women, 669 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: you know, pretty much both say that they expect of 670 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 1: equal partnerships. But then when there's a follow up question 671 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 1: of you know, well, what if that isn't possible, you know, 672 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 1: whose whose career takes a back seat? Men mostly say 673 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: my wife's career takes a back seat. Um, and you know, 674 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:37,439 Speaker 1: whereas women are more likely to basically say, well, we'll we'll, 675 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: we'll have to figure out some way to work that out, 676 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: will trade off, you know, we we'll do something, and 677 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: it ends up being men who are right. Um, it 678 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: is overwhelmingly women's careers to take a back seat, even 679 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 1: when the couple kind of goes into the marriage intending 680 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 1: it to be egalitarian. And those choices, you know, can 681 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: can feel very personal, and they certainly are, but obviously 682 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: they're also influenced, you know, both by public policy and 683 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: also my workplace discrimination. And you know the fact that 684 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 1: there's a reason that you know, perhaps ten years into 685 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: a marriage, your husband is making more money than you, 686 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 1: and you know holds a higher position, um, and you 687 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: kind of feel like you're treading water, and so it 688 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 1: just makes more sense for you to be the one 689 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,760 Speaker 1: to scale back. I've heard that story so many times 690 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: from friends who say things like, Oh, we have a 691 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 1: child now, and my job was just paying for child care, 692 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 1: so it just didn't make financial sense for me to 693 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: keep working. Don't you hate that argument though, because and 694 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,839 Speaker 1: I think you address this directly in your book, Jill, 695 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: the argument like suspends the potential for any future career 696 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 1: of that woman, as though that's the earnings cap on 697 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,760 Speaker 1: her entire career, not to mention her potential for future 698 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: promotions or what opportunity she's going to be missing out 699 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: on by not staying in the workforce or underestimating the 700 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 1: very challenging on ramp back into the workforce exactly. I 701 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,319 Speaker 1: also want to highlight something else from what you just said, Jill, 702 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,799 Speaker 1: which is this idea that I think a lot of 703 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: men go into marriage is thinking I'm this awesome feminist 704 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 1: ally and I'm gonna have an equal partnership marriage blah 705 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,399 Speaker 1: blah blah. But then when you actually look at what 706 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: that entails, whether it's making a career sacrifice so that 707 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,800 Speaker 1: your your partner can work, or doing more abound the house. 708 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 1: Sometimes they're not actually prepared to take on the actual 709 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: responsibilities that come along with an equal partnership, whether that's 710 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 1: you know, sacrificing your career for your partners, doing more 711 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,399 Speaker 1: around the house, whatever that looks like. Oftentimes, I think 712 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 1: people can just say they want to have an equal partnership, 713 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 1: but not actually have an equal partnership or put the 714 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,879 Speaker 1: work in to make an equal partnership possible, right, Yeah. 715 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:43,879 Speaker 1: I mean I think a lot of a lot of men, 716 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: you know, will say I want an equal partnership, and 717 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:48,880 Speaker 1: what they mean is I'm perfectly happy to marry somebody 718 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: who works outside the home, you know, who pulls her 719 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: own weight, you know who sort of she does the 720 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,319 Speaker 1: work to make herself equal to me. Um, I don't 721 00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 1: know that. There's always a lot of self reflection on 722 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: you know, what do I have to do to make 723 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,759 Speaker 1: this relationship function, you know, including scaling back at work, 724 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: you know, including Emily. One thing that you were saying 725 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: about childcare, even the idea that childcare expenses are measured 726 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:18,240 Speaker 1: against a women's income right and not the whole family's income. Um, 727 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of indicative. I mean, I hear 728 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 1: that all the time to like, you know, daycare is 729 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 1: almost as much as I was making. Well, I've never 730 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: heard a man say daycare was almost as much as 731 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 1: I was making, So I quit my job. Um, you know, 732 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:32,919 Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a family expense, and the kids 733 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,400 Speaker 1: are both of yours, So it does seem a little absurd. 734 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,800 Speaker 1: You know that even in quote unquote e gualitarian marriages, 735 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: it's still a women who are either kind of financially 736 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 1: or physically charged with taking care of the children. And 737 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 1: it also just brings us back to underscore the critical 738 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: importance of public policy and how our public institutions could 739 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,360 Speaker 1: eliminate the need for that conversation for a lot of couples. 740 00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: If we had, uh, like every other industrialized nation in 741 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: the world, any semblance of a federal paid parental leave 742 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 1: policy or affordable childcare reform in this country, there will 743 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:13,320 Speaker 1: be fewer partners, regardless of gender, who are raising children 744 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 1: who would be forced into making that kind of a decision. So, again, 745 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 1: these are choices, but there are constrained choices. I really 746 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 1: hope we can see the institution of marriage itself continue 747 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,799 Speaker 1: to evolve in an egalitarian way with federal support, with 748 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: with public policy nudging it along. So, Joe, I'm curious, 749 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 1: how has same sex marriage changed how we think about 750 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:40,439 Speaker 1: the institution of marriage. How does that enter into this conversation. So, 751 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,239 Speaker 1: I think same sex marriage it's still so new that 752 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: there isn't a lot of great research yet on kind 753 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 1: of on same sex couples and marital happiness, and this 754 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:54,359 Speaker 1: sort of wealth of information we have on opposite sex couples, um, 755 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,800 Speaker 1: doesn't exist yet for same sex couples. That said, I 756 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 1: do you think that the Supreme Court case really reflected 757 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court case legalizing same sex marriage throughout the 758 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:08,839 Speaker 1: United States really reflected how much marriage has changed and 759 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 1: how much same sex couples have been really instrumental in 760 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,360 Speaker 1: pushing that change. Um. The sort of foundation of the 761 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: argument against same sex marriage, and you know, brief after 762 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:22,279 Speaker 1: brief filed by religious groups was that marriage must be 763 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 1: between a man and a woman because men and women 764 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 1: are inherently different and necessarily complementary for a marriage to 765 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,280 Speaker 1: even be by definition of marriage. You know that men protected, 766 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: women are protected, that women nurture and men are nurtured 767 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,840 Speaker 1: this kind of opposite view um of what makes marriage marriage, 768 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,400 Speaker 1: And the Supreme Court rejected that. And the Supreme Court 769 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 1: is not exactly one of the most like feminist institutions 770 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,360 Speaker 1: on the planet. Um. And what the majority opinion said, 771 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,600 Speaker 1: you know, it was basically that gender roles have changed 772 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,640 Speaker 1: so much that this idea, you know, that marriage must 773 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,560 Speaker 1: be between a man and a woman because of these 774 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,920 Speaker 1: kind of opposite afteristics, it's just not true of marriage 775 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,920 Speaker 1: generally anymore. And you know, so how can we say 776 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: the same sex couples shouldn't be able to partake in it? 777 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 1: You know that that is discrimination And so that's me 778 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,839 Speaker 1: is a really powerful moment that both reflects how far 779 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 1: we've come and also shows how the LGBT rights movement 780 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,840 Speaker 1: has really been kind of pushing forward and leading the 781 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 1: way on making marriage more egalitarian and better for all 782 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:29,400 Speaker 1: of the rest of us. Absolutely, So, last question for 783 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,720 Speaker 1: for everyone here rapid fire style, what are your hopes 784 00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 1: for your marriage, Jill or the institution of marriage more broadly, 785 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,640 Speaker 1: for the institution, I mean, I hope we keep moving 786 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 1: in a feminist direction. I I hope that you know 787 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 1: the sort of gender of the participants um increasingly ceases 788 00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,719 Speaker 1: to matter, and I frankly hope that marriage becomes less 789 00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,759 Speaker 1: of a sort of guiding social institution, that we have 790 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:58,280 Speaker 1: more options for partnerships and romantic relationships and recognize platonic 791 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 1: relationships um other than marriage, that marriage is no longer 792 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,319 Speaker 1: the only game in town. I would say, I just 793 00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 1: hope that anybody getting married is doing so because they're 794 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 1: really really excited to be married, and that they're super 795 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,239 Speaker 1: super happy about it, and they're not feeling pressured by 796 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 1: anything other than their own internal wants and happiness. Oh, 797 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,200 Speaker 1: I love that. And I would say I hope we 798 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,279 Speaker 1: cease to think of marriage as an achievement. I think 799 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 1: it's perfectly natural and well intentioned to congratulate folks for 800 00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 1: getting engaged and to congratulate folks for getting married, But 801 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,680 Speaker 1: to misconstrue marriage as some kind of a like entering 802 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,080 Speaker 1: the institution of marriage as some crowning achievement, to me 803 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:45,320 Speaker 1: like confuses that's hard work that we put in our careers. 804 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,959 Speaker 1: In some ways, I think maintaining a marriage, like having 805 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:52,320 Speaker 1: a fiftieth wedding anniversary, is an achievement, But getting married 806 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,279 Speaker 1: is not like a crowning achievement, and I wish we 807 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 1: could change the language around that. Well. Thank you so 808 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:03,239 Speaker 1: much Jill for joining us today. If you haven't already 809 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:05,799 Speaker 1: gotten a copy of her book The h Spot, The 810 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,360 Speaker 1: Feminist Pursuit of Happiness, you need to rectify that problem 811 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,560 Speaker 1: in your life right now and get you some more 812 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,600 Speaker 1: feminist happiness in your life in the meantime. Jill is 813 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,959 Speaker 1: a frequent writer on all kinds of great topics. Jill, 814 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,840 Speaker 1: where can our listeners keep up with you? So you 815 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 1: can follow me on Twitter at at Jill Filipovic um 816 00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:27,759 Speaker 1: or I have a public Facebook page where I post 817 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,480 Speaker 1: most of my work, which is Facebook dot com slash 818 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:35,640 Speaker 1: Jill Filipovic page. Awesome and listeners, we want to hear 819 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,960 Speaker 1: from you. Have you toyed around with the idea of marriage? 820 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:44,200 Speaker 1: Have you entered the institution yourself? Have you, like many 821 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:48,160 Speaker 1: of us, sort of intrinsically rebelled against the concept of 822 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,839 Speaker 1: marriage entirely? We want to hear from you. All your 823 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,759 Speaker 1: fraud feminist feelings are welcome. So let us know how 824 00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 1: you felt about today's episode and the idea of a 825 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:03,080 Speaker 1: feminist marriage in general. On Twitter at mom Stuff podcast 826 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,360 Speaker 1: on Instagram at stuff Mom Never Told You, And as always, 827 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,680 Speaker 1: our inbox is open at mom Stuff at how stuff 828 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:21,400 Speaker 1: works dot com.