1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: And we're back with this week's classic episode. I've been 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: no riddle me this. What's the most famous rhinoceros? 3 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 2: You know why? Clara the world's most famous rhinoceros? Man, 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 2: you know the answer to that? 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I don't know. 6 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 2: I love the name Clara because it is it evokes 7 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,959 Speaker 2: images of like a dainty Ballerina esque figure. I only 8 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 2: say that because of Clara. 9 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 3: From The Nutcracker and the idea of maybe that's what 10 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 3: they were going for, because the idea of a rhinoceros 11 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 3: being a huge lumbering beast also being able to kind 12 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 3: of tippytoe around and pirouette is a little funny. 13 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is This was a really interesting one for us. 14 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: Back in twenty nineteen, we learned the story of an 15 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: interprising I'll see enterprising see captain who got a hold 16 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: of an orphaned rhino and made friends and took the 17 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: rhino with him back home. And we're doing this, by 18 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: the way, with a special guest, our dear friend, Katie Golden, 19 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: the host of the podcast Creature Feature. 20 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 2: So let's jump right in and begin to unravel this 21 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 2: history mystery. 22 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome to the 23 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: show Ridiculous Historians. Quick question for you, what's the most 24 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: amazing animal that you have seen up close in real life? 25 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 2: Hi? 26 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: My name is Ben, my name is Nol. 27 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: I would say Ostrich if by amazing you mean terrifying, right, 28 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 2: because you're bird thing bird thing Ostrich in particular cause 29 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 2: I've got those gangly, weird necks and those really musculous talons, 30 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 2: and the the whole shape of the bird is just 31 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 2: rommed today. 32 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: Do you know if, for a relatively or comparatively brief 33 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: span of Earth's history, flightless birds large flightless birds with 34 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: a dominant species totally I. 35 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,239 Speaker 2: Mean, aren't like Jurassic Park dinosaurs meant to have had feathers. Yes, 36 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 2: that is true. That is true. 37 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 1: Spielberg did not back down. Another person does not back down, 38 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 1: is our super producer, Casey Pegram. 39 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. That Tom Petty song is about him. It is. 40 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: It is a lot of Tom Petty's catalog is actually 41 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: based on the life and times of Casey Pegram. 42 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. It didn't seem to work out age wise and 43 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 2: timeline wise, but trust us it does. Trust us. 44 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole thing's a concept album. I would say 45 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 1: the most amazing animal that I have seen up close 46 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: for entirely subjective reasons would be a tiger. The most 47 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: amazing animal I've seen up close in the wild was 48 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: a brown bear. Did I tell you that story? 49 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 2: No? 50 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: Were, I was not a survived at the end. I 51 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: was in boy Scouts and we were on a camping trip. 52 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: I had walked away from the campsite, and let me 53 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: put this delicately, I was peeing in a creek, which 54 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: you know, I probably shouldn't have been doing. And then 55 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: mid stream is the best way to put it. I 56 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: looked across the creek and I saw a bear on 57 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: the other side of the creek just chilling and staring 58 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: at me while I was midstream, and I didn't know 59 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,519 Speaker 1: what to do, so I just kept going and then 60 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: I backed away. I walked backwards back to the campsite, 61 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: and the bear just stared at me. 62 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 2: What you're describing, Ben, is the natural adaptation that was 63 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,839 Speaker 2: the inspiration for the care Bear stair with a care 64 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 2: bear stare. 65 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, as long as it wasn't the inspiration for that 66 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: Leonardo DiCaprio vehicle. What was that? 67 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 2: Where was he in a live action care Bears movie? 68 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: No, he was in a movie with a bear. 69 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 2: Oh where where he eats? There he eats raw meat 70 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 2: and animal carcass and I think they gave him the 71 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: oscar for it. 72 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, Casey, do you remember which one that was? That? 73 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 2: Was it? 74 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: Casey on the Case, Casey on the Case. Today's episode 75 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: is about several things. It is about an amazing animal 76 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: that very few of us get a chance to see 77 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: in the wild nowadays, and it's about the way fame 78 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 1: can affect people. And this is a very special episode 79 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: today because we are not entering into this fora alone 80 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: Well we're entering into it alone, but we're going to 81 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: exit it with company. Yes that's correct. Yes we do 82 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: have a surprise guest at the end. But our first guest, 83 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: at least in concept here spirit, in spirit, there we Go, 84 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: is actually not a person. Our first guest is a rhinoceros. 85 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 2: Sure not to be confused with the very depressing Smashing 86 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 2: Pumpkins song of the same name and actually, in retrospect, 87 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 2: highly pretentious. I was so in love with that stuff, 88 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 2: and I look, some of it holds up, but that song, 89 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 2: he's like, he's like planned a show. Trees and balloons. 90 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 2: What does that even mean? Billy Corgan, you know ice 91 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 2: cream Snow. 92 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I lump them in with a lot of bands 93 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: from that time period. Who if you don't pay attention 94 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 1: to the lyrics. I've said this before. I've had those 95 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: moments with Stone Temple Pilots as well, where I think, 96 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: you know, if I didn't understand English, I would love 97 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: this song. But that stuff like the fashion victims gnashed 98 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: their charcoal teeth. Oh that that's that's zero melancholi. 99 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 2: My beef with the song Rhinoceros, not one mention of 100 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 2: a rhinoceros and the entire so I guess it's maybe 101 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: just the feeling of a rhinoceros. It has sort of 102 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 2: a rhinoceros like melancholy to it, which you know that 103 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 2: interest into the story only it's interesting. We'll get to 104 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 2: we'll get to it. 105 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: It does. It does matter though, because for quite a 106 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: long time a rhinoceros was considered to be somewhat of 107 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 1: a mythical creature. 108 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 2: Right. There is a very famous etching by Albrecht Durer 109 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: that depicted a rhinoceros based on description alone in a 110 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 2: really cool way. 111 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, fifteen fifteen woodcut, and it shows a rhinoceros 112 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: in profile, and it looks like it's dressed for war. Yeah, 113 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: like it came to kick button, chew bubble gum and 114 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: it's all out of gum. 115 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 2: Looks like one of those ones from like one of 116 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 2: those ones from The Black Panther. That there's that tribe 117 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 2: and that comes into play pretty heavily in the big 118 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 2: battle structure of the film. They ride these rhinoceros like 119 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: creatures that aren't quite the rhinoceroses that we know. They're 120 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 2: a little bit of an augmented rhinoceros, which is this 121 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 2: this etching is very much the case. It has an 122 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 2: extra horn on its back, which makes it look even 123 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 2: more fierce. Yep. But overall, pretty damn good depiction of 124 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 2: a rhino based on just word of mouth, right, yeah, especially. 125 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:03,799 Speaker 1: Considering how how woefully inaccurate many depictions of this type 126 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: were at the time. Now, at this time in the 127 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: fifteen hundreds, many many people in Europe would place a 128 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: creature like the rhinoceros up there with a creature like 129 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: the griffin, the hippogriffis or the unicorns. You know, it's 130 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: a cool idea, but someone was a bit in their 131 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: cups or as are different Ben Franklin may have put 132 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: it they had been to speak with the King. 133 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 2: The King. Yeah, and Ben Well, last thing, this Albert 134 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 2: sure etching really reminds me of battle Cat from He 135 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: Man because it's a very large, muscular creature decked out 136 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 2: in some very bespoke like armor and kind of a 137 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 2: helmet that goes over the rhino head. 138 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: I remember that. 139 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, you were a battle Cat. Yeah, he was Cringer 140 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 2: and then he turned into battle Cat. 141 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, because he had to transform with he Man. 142 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: That's in one of the most creative names for any superhero. 143 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 2: You never heard of the band Man Man. Yes, I 144 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 2: wonder if that's sort of a of a jab at 145 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 2: he Man. I don't know. 146 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: I never understood why it was she Ra and she 147 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: Woman if it was he Man. 148 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 2: That's a good point. No one knows. What. I will 149 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 2: say that the new she Rack cartoon is supposed to 150 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 2: be incredible. It's being held up there along with like 151 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 2: shows like Stephen Universes being very inclusive and very well 152 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 2: written and interesting. 153 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: And handling trauma quite well. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, I really 154 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: want to check it out. Oh and speaking of checking 155 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: things out, Durer ultimately arrives at at least part of 156 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: this description via the courtesy of the first century Roman 157 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 1: author Plinny the Elder, And I love his description of 158 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 1: the rhinoceros knoll. He calls it fast, impetuous, and cunning, 159 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: the mortal enemy. 160 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 2: Of the elephants. 161 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, where is this covering for some nightman day man 162 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: stuff going on? 163 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 2: Time? No? And I think even like, what was what was? 164 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 2: What was he basing these observations on. Did plant? Were 165 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 2: there were there rhinoceroses in Rome? That's a good question. 166 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: What do you think? 167 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 2: I have a feeling it was probably more word of mouth, 168 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 2: and he probably did some research based on people that 169 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 2: were traveling too far oign lands and then maybe interviewed them. 170 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 2: But he didn't strike me as the type that was 171 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 2: going to go off to India or Africa or anything 172 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 2: that wasn't really in the cards. 173 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: Plenty also got plenty of things wrong, you know what 174 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: I mean. It's not as if he could hop on 175 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: the internet or even visit a particularly well stocked library. 176 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: So he most likely Plenty that is, was getting his 177 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: accounts from Greek and Roman forays into India, and he 178 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 1: was describing an Indian rhinoceros. 179 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 2: Which is the subject of our story today actually, and 180 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 2: one last thing. Plenty was a naval commander earlier in 181 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 2: his life before he became like, you know, a well 182 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 2: known no at. 183 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: All as in maritime, not belly button, that's right, that's right. 184 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 2: So I don't know that he experienced these things firsthand, 185 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 2: but I think he definitely had the opportunity possibly to have, 186 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 2: but more likely been that he heard it from someone else. 187 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: And this is where we meet Clara. Let's fast forward 188 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: to the seventeen hundreds. Is a rhinoceros, and in seventeen 189 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: thirty eight, her mother is tragically killed in India Bambi style, 190 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: Bamby style dude, and she becomes a house pet of 191 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 1: one Jan Albert Sikderman, director of the Dutch East India Company, 192 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: and he kept her. He raised her in his estate 193 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: in Kolkata until she got too big. Now, apparently she's 194 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: very well behaved. People loved her. She loved people. But 195 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: a rhinoceros is a huge creature, and eventually, as she 196 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: grew into adulthood, she was just, despite her best intentions, 197 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: too big to walk around inside without wrecking the place. 198 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 2: What do you call a baby rhinoceros? Ben? Is it? 199 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: A pup Thomas Janine Clara Clara a calf like a hippo. 200 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe that's the case. This is so cool though, 201 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 2: because it's this is one of those stories where anytime 202 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 2: you have animals taken out of their natural habitat and 203 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 2: kind of trotted around and for human amusement, there's it's 204 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: easy to do an eye roll and be like, oh, 205 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 2: that is not what this animal was meant for. But again, 206 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 2: left to her own devices, Clara may will have perished 207 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 2: in the harsh wilderness of the Indian jungles, right, But this, 208 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 2: this kindly gentleman took her in and you know, would 209 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 2: trot her out for guests, apparently demonstrating her quote table manners. 210 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: Right. 211 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 2: This is coming from an article from getty dot edu. 212 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 2: They curated a very cool exhibit at the Getty Museum 213 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 2: in New York about Clara. And we'll get to what 214 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 2: might have been contained in such an exhibit in just 215 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 2: a bit. But for one particular dinner, let's say, just 216 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 2: for editorial purposes. Jan Albert Sickdermann, Clara's caretaker had a guest, 217 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 2: a kindly Dutch sea captain. I'm gonna let you attempt 218 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:54,599 Speaker 2: this pronunciation ben. 219 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 1: Daoomote Vandermere very good. And Clara at this time is 220 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: about three years old. So she spends the first to 221 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: and change years of her life living with Sickderman. But 222 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: then she is acquired by Vandermere and he takes her 223 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: on a seven month sea voyage around the African continent, 224 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: eventually arriving in Rotterdam in July seventeen forty one. 225 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 2: And let's make no mistake, Clara was not full grown 226 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 2: at this point, but three years that's a big creature 227 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: right there. I want to say somewhere probably in the 228 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 2: range of two thousand pounds, because by no, that's not 229 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 2: true because by the age of eight she was five thousand. 230 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 2: So what do we conjecture that she was at the 231 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 2: age of three somewhere between that? Yeah, okay, somewhere between 232 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 2: zero pounds and five thousand pounds. 233 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: That sounds acurate. 234 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 2: I'm going to say a three year old rhino calf, 235 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 2: I'm going to estimate about one thousand pounds. So just 236 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 2: to get her loaded up onto the ship, not to 237 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 2: mention a six month journey where this creature would need 238 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 2: to be cared for and fed, no small task. This 239 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 2: is kindly sea captain did have a soft spot. He 240 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 2: was impressed and very taken in by this gentle giant 241 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 2: as she was described. 242 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: And she was a little bit high maintenance because she 243 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: was not designed to live life on a boat. So 244 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: during her travels from India to Rotterdam, she acquired some 245 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: favorite human things, namely orange peels, beer, and tobacco smoke. 246 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think people would like blow her shotguns or something, 247 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 2: and also give her a little sip of their beer, 248 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 2: probably as a gag at first, but I think she 249 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 2: really did develop a taste for it and would have 250 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 2: a little nip throughout the rest of her existence. 251 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 1: A lot of mammals do. 252 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. 253 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: And also Clara's skin required special moisturizers so she didn't 254 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: dry out, and that's why historians conjecture that the captain 255 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: may have used fish oil, may have massaged her flesh 256 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: with fish oil to keep her moisturized. 257 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. I saw a really adorable YouTube video. I think 258 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 2: it was. This is like sort of a fable almost 259 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 2: This has been recreated in picture books and like lore 260 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 2: or whatever because it is a really cute story. And 261 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 2: I saw kind of a pictorial animated recreation of this 262 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 2: and that they suggested that he thought, oh, she's trying out, 263 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 2: what do we have in abundance of we're in the 264 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 2: sea fish, Let's do fish oil. And as you can imagine, 265 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 2: it probably wasn't the most pleasant smell, but it did 266 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 2: keep her skin from drying out and cracking like the 267 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 2: under the sun. Yeah. 268 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: Absolutely, this is first off, we have to commend the 269 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: captain and their crew because they would realistically have been 270 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: figuring this out on the fly. What does a rhinoceros seat? 271 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: How much food does it need? How much water does 272 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: it need? So this was trial and error. Unfortunately for Clara, 273 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: they persevered and it worked. When they arrive in Rotterdam, 274 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: she gets a temporary home in Laden and then in Amsterdam, 275 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: and she's exhibited around the Netherlands for several years before 276 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: she makes her next trip abroad to Germany, and that 277 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: was in seventeen forty four. At the time, she was 278 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: called the Dutch Rhino because that's where that's what people 279 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: associated her with. They wouldn't say it would be an 280 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: unnecessarily long explanation to say, well, you've heard of India. 281 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 2: Right, sure, I mean, let's think about the way we've 282 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 2: viewed circuses today. You know, we know circuses are problematic, 283 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 2: and then the way animals are treated in circuses has 284 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 2: historically been proven to be kind of gross. But think 285 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 2: about the fascination even to the top of the show, 286 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 2: Ben you had with your pal the grizzly Bear, and 287 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 2: my abject horror slash fascination with the ostrich things that 288 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 2: we have seen in various forms, whether printed or in 289 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 2: movies or whatever. But this is a thing that people 290 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 2: had no notion of even existing. As far as some 291 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 2: of the people that were seeing this, this rhino was 292 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 2: concerned it was a dragon of some kind, right, or 293 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 2: some kind of mythical creature. So it was like rhino hysteria, 294 00:15:55,560 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 2: the rhino craze, rhino craze, rhinomania, as the ermania. 295 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: This is also the heaviest land animal on the planet. 296 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: There is an excellent book called Clara's Grand Tour, Travels 297 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: with a Rhinoceros in eighteenth century Europe by Glennis Ridley, 298 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: which describes in the most accurate detail possible Clara's journey. 299 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: You see, vandermir did a lot of great things for Clara. 300 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: I kept her alive much longer than the normal rhino 301 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: lifespan and captivity. But he didn't keep a journal, so 302 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: some of this stuff is conjecture on Ridley's part. And 303 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: one of the things that Ridley points out is that 304 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: there was an earlier attempted transport of a rhino in 305 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: seventeen seventy in France, and for a single check this out, 306 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: for a single journey transporting this male rhino to Versailles, 307 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: the French government paid for two days of work by carpenters, 308 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: thirty six days of work by locksmith's, fifty seven days 309 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: of work by blacksmiths, in seventy two days of work 310 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: by a team of wheelwrights, and the wagon still collapses. 311 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:08,959 Speaker 2: Jeez, And wouldn't that have been like at the request 312 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 2: of a monarchy. So this is just like a dude, 313 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 2: like a sea captain who's having to like, you know, 314 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 2: pull this stuff together and figure it out. And not 315 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 2: to mention that in that same book you're talking about 316 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 2: by the time Clara was basically full grown around eight 317 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 2: years old, we're talking five thou pounds of creature that 318 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 2: eats about sixty pounds of hay, twenty pounds of bread, 319 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 2: and fourteen buckets of water a day, not counting the beer. No, 320 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 2: not counting the trip. That's just like for a treat, 321 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 2: you know. But rhino Mania was a real thing. I 322 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 2: mean it swept the cl nation Europe, you know. Clara 323 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 2: made trips to Switzerland, Berlin, Vienna, Munich, Strasburg, Augsburg, all 324 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 2: over Germany, Vertzport where I was born actually, and Onsbach, Italy, 325 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 2: London several times and inspired like all of these aristocratic 326 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 2: kind are members of these aristocratic courts, who are like 327 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 2: poets and painters. 328 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: Right right, She had private audiences with royalty, aristocracy and 329 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 1: people may This is very clever of vandermir He understands 330 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: the value of merchandising, you know, so he actively encourages 331 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,959 Speaker 1: these different pieces of memorabilia and souvenirs commemorating Clara the Rhino. 332 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:31,199 Speaker 1: There are bronze sculptures, they're porcelain curios. There are you know, 333 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: life sized portraits of her. One in seventeen forty nine 334 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: by Jean Baptiste Adri She stands in this like rustic landscape. 335 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: They're etchings of her. There's another painting in seventeen fifty 336 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: one that's currently at the National Gallery in London by 337 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: Pietro Longhi, and this entire thing impacts society as a whole. 338 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 1: It is rhinomania. She is a craze. Now most people 339 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: probably cannot afford the opportunity to see her in person. 340 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: Vandermir anticipates that it makes some different memorabilia for different 341 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: budget levels. 342 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, like the equivalent of like a commemorative circus cup 343 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 2: or something like that, you know, exactly one of those 344 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 2: light up swords. 345 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: And during her heyday, during the heyday of her tour 346 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: for a season, things that were fashionable in the world 347 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,400 Speaker 1: of style and dress were referred to as ala rhinoceros. 348 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think there was even a hairdo that got 349 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:28,640 Speaker 2: popular in France. If we can picture some of those 350 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 2: big billowy boufont hairstyles in France, one of them was, 351 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 2: I believe, called the rhinoceros. 352 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they decorated horses with that as well, with 353 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: like little rhino ears and rhino little rhino tales. 354 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 2: Yeah. It was like, I mean, it was an absolute sensation. 355 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 2: And I know you mentioned private audiences with certain monarchs, 356 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 2: but I haven't confirmed this, but I did see in 357 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 2: one source that Louis the fifteenth actually offered to buy 358 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:59,479 Speaker 2: Clara from our kindly sea captain and or or at 359 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 2: least breast that he very much wanted this creature, to 360 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 2: which Vandermere said, I'll give her to you for some 361 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 2: exorbitant price, to which Louis turned his nose up because 362 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 2: he was expecting it to be gifted to him. But 363 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 2: now Vandermere was very very much this was like a companion, 364 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 2: even though he was, you know, cleaning up making bank. Obviously, 365 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 2: with this rhino, it really does seem like he loved her. 366 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and she was inspiring songs and poems dedicated to Clara. 367 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: And I think you already mentioned that when she toured 368 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: Italy she met the same fanfare. That's where this wonderful 369 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: painting comes from, with some Venetians and masked staring at 370 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: the rhinoceros, very very eyes wide shut. That one's for you, Casey. 371 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 2: And speaking of we check out Casey Pegrim's recurring guest 372 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 2: spot on our buddy Chuck's podcast movie Crush, which I 373 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 2: appear on occasionally as well, doing a series about Kubrick's 374 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 2: eyesweat shut and I believe you also by Linden and 375 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 2: the Shining as well, Right, yeah, those three and we 376 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 2: got it's passive Laura kind of soon. I love pass Laura. 377 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 2: It's fantastic, such a good one. So it's sort of 378 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 2: a let think of people. Don't think of it as 379 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 2: like top Kubrick. It's one of my favorites. Yeah, I 380 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 2: agree completely. 381 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: Why you may ask, well, you'll have to tune into 382 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: movie Crush to find out along the way. Both as 383 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: a animal and as an increasingly relevant cultural icon, it 384 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 1: seems that vandermir and Clara really do have this bond, 385 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: and she lives what we said, she lived longer than 386 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 1: any rhino in captivity beforehand had. She lived around twenty years. 387 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: She went to London three times. You know there are 388 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: I haven't been to London three times? What am I 389 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: doing with my life? 390 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 2: Dude? I mean I went to I think I have 391 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 2: all the cool European destinations I've been to. I went 392 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 2: when I was too young to remember, when I traveled 393 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 2: with my mom when she was doing opera stuff. So 394 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 2: I really hope to remedy that. But yes, seriously, this 395 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 2: rhino lived large. And think about all the voyages and 396 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 2: the hoisting onto a ship and all of this. 397 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: So yeah, the coach itself, she had to be pulled 398 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: by six horses in a specially reinforced coach. And again 399 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: with the whole trivia about the French government's attempts to 400 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: do this thing. This dude cracked the code, and I 401 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,479 Speaker 1: guess he must have parlayed all of that Clara money 402 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: into ways of keeping her comfortable. You know, we don't 403 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: really read a lot about him living in the absolute 404 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: lap of luxury. I even heard that read that early on, 405 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: when she was still growing and he hadn't quite cracked 406 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,479 Speaker 1: this racket yet, he would go hungry in order to 407 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: feed Clara the rhino again this again, this has sort 408 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,719 Speaker 1: of taken the form of a bit of a fairy 409 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: tale the way it's written in some places. But that's 410 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: interesting detail to have survived, you know. And so spoiler alert, 411 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: Clara is no longer with us. If we assume that 412 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,919 Speaker 1: she was approximately two years old when purchased by VanderMeer 413 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: and brought to Leyden in seventeen forty one, would have 414 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 1: been twenty and seventeen fifty eight, and that is when 415 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: on her third visit to London she passed away. Unfortunately, 416 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: there are no contemporary reports from visitors who saw Clara 417 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: of any visible signs of illness, and to this day 418 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: her death seems sudden, unexpected, and we don't have a 419 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: clear cause of death either. 420 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,719 Speaker 2: No, we don't. From what I've seen, it just sounds 421 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 2: like it was her time. I mean, it was sort 422 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 2: of an old age thing, given that she exceeded the 423 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 2: lifespan of a typical rhino. Yeah. I saw one one 424 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,719 Speaker 2: version of the story that she lost her horn or 425 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 2: her horn fell off earlier before she passed away, and 426 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 2: that vandermir was concerned for her. But then he continued 427 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 2: to he felt that she enjoyed this life and that 428 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 2: she was like, this was the life for her, that 429 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 2: she got pleasure out of being paraded around and being 430 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 2: admired and you know, sort of anthropomorphizing I guess, which 431 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 2: we'll get to in a little bit. But apparently the 432 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,239 Speaker 2: horn grew back and she had another couple of good 433 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 2: years in her of this life. 434 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's see. There's one theory that I thought was 435 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: interesting that comes again from that book I mentioned earlier, 436 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: Clara's Grand Tour. There's one theory that says it's possible 437 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 1: that she just had a natural disease that would have 438 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: led to her death in the wild regardless. And there's 439 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,239 Speaker 1: another theory that says the vast quantities of bread she 440 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: ate while on display in London may be a clue 441 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 1: to her death, since any fungal growth in the weak could, 442 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 1: if consumed in large enough quantities, have a severe effect 443 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 1: on the digestive system. But this is all speculation, and 444 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: the main point is that this gentle, gigantic, beautiful creature 445 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 1: single hornedly. I'm going to keep that bad Yeah, very well, 446 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: I'm going to keep it. She changed the way that 447 00:24:52,240 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 1: Europe understood the world beyond the edges of their maps. 448 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 1: While we're speculating, no this leads us to our segue. 449 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: It's often said that fame can change people. Right, a 450 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: sudden rise to fame and you can't remember who your 451 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: real friends are, you win the lottery or something like that. Right, 452 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: how does it affect you psychologically? Well, Claire of the 453 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:25,719 Speaker 1: Rhinoceros had a sudden stratospheric rise to fame. Is it 454 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: possible that this rise to fame could have affected her 455 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: the same way it affects a human being? Admittedly, Noel, 456 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 1: this is a pretty great question, but I think we 457 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: could use a little bit of help exploring it. 458 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 2: What are you say, I think we have to because 459 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 2: we set up a special guest at the beginning of 460 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 2: the show, and if we don't follow through with that, 461 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 2: people will think we're liars. 462 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: There'll be chaos in the streets. My friend. Luckily that 463 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: wasn't just a bunch of smoke and mirrors of fellow 464 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: ridiculous historians. We are delighted to introduce you to today's guest, 465 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: peer podcaster of ours, a big friend of the show, 466 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 1: Katie Golden, the host of Creature feature. 467 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:07,880 Speaker 4: Key Guys, Happy to be here. 468 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 2: We are so happy to have you. And you might 469 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 2: remember Katie because an episode of her amazing show snuck 470 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 2: into our feed and then obviously you subscribe to her 471 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 2: show immediately, and now you're huge fans, so we're all 472 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:19,400 Speaker 2: family here. 473 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, so we were very curious to hear your take 474 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: on this, Katie. We set up earlier that question of 475 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: how sudden fame could impact a human being psychologically. We 476 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: were hoping to learn if there's whether there's any analog 477 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: to that in the world or in the mind rather 478 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: of the rhinoceros. 479 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 480 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,479 Speaker 4: I think that's a really interesting question because there is 481 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 4: so there's a lot of research into animals in captivity 482 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 4: and their psychology, especially these larger animals like elephants and 483 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 4: rhinos and tigers, you know, where they they require a 484 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,239 Speaker 4: lot of territory and a lot their natural environment is 485 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 4: just so expensive that when you put them in captivity 486 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:10,919 Speaker 4: and you put them in a different environment, it is 487 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 4: a drastic psychological shift for them. So I think, like 488 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 4: to explore the question of fame, like first you kind 489 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 4: of have to know a little bit about animals and captivity. 490 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 4: So like, even when animals are really well looked after 491 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 4: and cared for and the zoo keepers really love them, 492 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 4: say it like the San Diego Zoo, where it's just 493 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 4: a it's a fantastic zoo, but they still have these 494 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 4: issues of what are called stereotypees, which are like these 495 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 4: kind of like obsessive, compulsive behaviors that animals do when 496 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 4: they're in captivity, like polar bears or elephants, and they'll 497 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 4: do things like repeated tics movements, obsessive grooming, pacing, and 498 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 4: for rhinos, one of the things they do is they 499 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 4: have these awesome prehensile upper lips or their semi prehensile 500 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 4: and that's how they can like grasp twigs or stocks 501 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 4: of grass and chew those up. They'll kind of fidget 502 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 4: with that upper lip and do these repeated motions with 503 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 4: that as a sign of stress. And so there is 504 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 4: something in terms of captivity that can really stress out animals, 505 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 4: and especially the large ones. But there's evidence that increased 506 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 4: enrichment helps them out. It helps destress them. So things 507 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 4: like having to work through puzzles to get through their food, 508 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 4: like games and toys, and positive interactions with their trainers, 509 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 4: so allowing them to One thing that I think people 510 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 4: might not know about rhinos is you can actually train 511 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 4: their trainable. They're fairly intelligent. You can give them. There's 512 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 4: one rhino that has learned how to paint using its 513 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 4: upper lip. So the so the keeper applies a dab 514 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 4: of paint to its upper lip and then it just 515 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 4: kind of The paintings are I gotta say they aren't great, 516 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 4: a little abstract perhaps, I mean, I know it's it's 517 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 4: easy to be a critic, but they I mean there's 518 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 4: a certain genes sequa that's lacking in them. 519 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 2: But saying like gorilla paintings are superior elephant, I. 520 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 4: Think they might be. Even elephant paintings I think are 521 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 4: a little better. I'm really sorry to say, but I 522 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 4: mean the rhino paintings, they put in a real good 523 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 4: effort there. I'd put it on my fridge. 524 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, a lip isn't quite the same as 525 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 2: like a trunk or like, you know, hands. 526 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: I know, I'm waiting for the octopus paintings. 527 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 2: I have a quick question for you, because this is 528 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 2: all super fascinating already, but one thing we maybe didn't 529 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 2: mention is that Clara lost her mother as a as 530 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 2: a baby, like Bambi style, and was always kind of 531 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 2: taken care of by humans from the age of like 532 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 2: two or three. Do you think that would make this 533 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 2: transition into captivity or whatever version of captivity you could 534 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 2: call being paraded around in this way. I mean, it 535 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 2: wasn't in one place. It was a lot of traveling, 536 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 2: which probably was even more traumatic now that I think 537 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 2: about it. But do you think having been exposed to 538 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 2: that kind of life from such an early age would 539 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: make a difference in developing those tics or any kind 540 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 2: of negative attributes. 541 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 4: I mean, it is interesting because there is kind of 542 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 4: a precedent of a polar bear being separated from its 543 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 4: parents and then developing these tics and then like being 544 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 4: reunited with its parents and still having the tics, so 545 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 4: it's not necessarily clear that that parental separation would make 546 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 4: it worse or better. It could trigger some stress, for sure, 547 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 4: But then also being raised from such a young age 548 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 4: by humans would probably allow her to see them more 549 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 4: as peers, especially if they're interacting with her in a 550 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 4: real positive way, and if the training is very it 551 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 4: takes the approach of being encouraging rather than punitive, that 552 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 4: I think that would have a potentially positive effect on 553 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 4: her psychology. Obviously, none of this is ideal, like the 554 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 4: ideal thing is for her to be in her natural 555 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 4: environment and have a social life with other rhinos. Although 556 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 4: I have to say rhinos aren't the most social of animals, 557 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 4: they definitely do display a lot of friendly behaviors with 558 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 4: each other. They're not very aggressive with other rhinos. Only 559 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 4: male rhinos can be a little bit territorial and aggressive 560 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 4: with other males, and when they are it's pretty catastrophic, 561 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 4: but typically they're not in Females will sometimes be in 562 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 4: groups in the wild, so like with usually it's with 563 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 4: their infants or young or even young males can sometimes 564 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 4: be tolerated by females as they're sort of learning to 565 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 4: make it on their own, and sometimes they'll have like 566 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 4: playdates with other females where all their calves will get 567 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 4: together and kind of ramp around. So I think for 568 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 4: a female rhino like Clara, she would tolerate social interaction 569 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 4: and expect it, although it must be very bizarre for 570 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 4: her because no matter how kind her or well intentioned 571 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 4: her owners are, they are not going to know rhino 572 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 4: body language. They're not going to be able to flap 573 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 4: their ears back and forth and kind of like bob 574 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 4: their head in a way that's going to communicate to 575 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 4: her that they're playful or friendly. So she might I'd 576 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 4: imagine it'd be confusing, probably a little better since she 577 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 4: was raised since she was a calf, but still kind 578 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 4: of like, you know, imagine being stuck with these aliens 579 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 4: who seem to care for you, but they just are 580 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 4: so weird. They're just these blobs that have no expression, 581 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 4: no show, no emotion, and kind of just give you 582 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 4: food and sometimes soothe you in certain ways. And so 583 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 4: you could maybe sometimes infer some care, but it would 584 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 4: be hard for you to totally feel like you're actually socializing. 585 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 2: Oh that's a fantastic way. 586 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: They can't even paint with their lips, you know what 587 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: I mean. Yeah, I had some follow up questions here. 588 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: Do female rhinos specifically experience any kind of like fertility 589 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: cycle that would change their behavior in adulthood? 590 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 4: That is interesting because typically like the only sort of 591 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 4: adult interactions that female rhinos are going to have are 592 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 4: when they're an estress, so like they're when they're going 593 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 4: to mate with a male. So I would assume it's 594 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,719 Speaker 4: hard for me to say definitively how that would translate 595 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 4: to interactions with humans, but there's certainly periods of time 596 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 4: where you know, they'll be more receptive to males, and 597 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 4: they're also when they're mothers, they are more receptive to 598 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 4: company from females with calves and juvenile males. So yeah, 599 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 4: I would think that perhaps her kind of she might 600 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 4: even have sort of a longing for certain rhinos social 601 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 4: events that she's missing out on without really understanding what 602 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 4: they are or why she feels that way, because I 603 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 4: don't you know, like she may have that urge to 604 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,359 Speaker 4: do some kind of like socializing with her own young 605 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 4: but if she didn't, she didn't have any calves, right, 606 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 4: So it's it's kind of It's an interesting thing. I 607 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 4: wonder if she sensed something was missing but probably couldn't 608 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 4: underst and why she felt that way or what that 609 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 4: would be. So I don't think they're intelligent, but not 610 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 4: intelligent enough to know like, oh, I want to have 611 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 4: a baby or I want to mate with a male rhino, 612 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 4: but maybe just sort of a vague anxiety. 613 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:20,760 Speaker 1: Could they feel loneliness perhaps? Or and also additionally, would 614 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: over time a rhinoceros be able to learn, for the 615 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: lack of a better word, learn to read human body 616 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:29,760 Speaker 1: language or physical. 617 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 4: Cues, I think to some extent. Well, first of all, 618 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 4: I mean it's hard to say how, especially an animal 619 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 4: like a rhino that is not as social as other animals. 620 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 4: So I would be a lot more confident to say, 621 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 4: like an elephant or a dog is going to feel lonely. 622 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 4: Rhinos are solitary enough that I don't know. I think 623 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 4: that maybe I think that, you know, because they do 624 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 4: have some positive social interactions, and although they're infrequent, they 625 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 4: do happen, and especially the females have a longer period 626 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,399 Speaker 4: of time where they're with their young. I think it's 627 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 4: certainly possible she felt loneliness, but probably couldn't you know, 628 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 4: it would be a very different experience for an animal 629 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 4: like a rhino versus a human or even a more 630 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 4: social animal like a primate. And then in terms of 631 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 4: understanding human body language, yes, I do think because rhinos 632 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,840 Speaker 4: are trainable, I think they could start to understand certain 633 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 4: cues and body language is meaning certain things. It's hard 634 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 4: to know how emotionally salient that would be though to 635 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,319 Speaker 4: a rhino, So like there's a difference between understanding a 636 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 4: certain que means they're about to get food or praise 637 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 4: and actually making the connection to it being a meaningful 638 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,720 Speaker 4: social interaction. So I think it's possible though for sure. 639 00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 2: I think that's a really interesting angle to the story too, 640 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,919 Speaker 2: because the sea captain who kept her didn't we don't 641 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 2: have any journals of his, so a lot of this 642 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 2: is like second third hand, and it almost has taken 643 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 2: on the quality of like a fable or a fairy 644 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 2: tale or something, and it feels very disneyfied, like all 645 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 2: of the accounts are very much like he and he 646 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 2: cad for Clara the young rye know, and she was 647 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 2: like his very own child, and blah blah blah and 648 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,240 Speaker 2: this very anthropomorphized kind of version of this wild animal, 649 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,280 Speaker 2: and I think that holds true with what you're saying. 650 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,439 Speaker 2: But I'm just wondering, do you feel like I feel 651 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 2: like what we're doing here talking to you is kind 652 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:34,839 Speaker 2: of arriving at more of the reality of the thing 653 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 2: as opposed to the fable side. I don't really have 654 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 2: a question. I'm just kind of commenting. It's just interesting 655 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 2: because you know, I initially I was like, Oh, this 656 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 2: sea captain is such a nice kind man, and I'm 657 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 2: sure he was, and I'm sure there's some truth to it. 658 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: But he made a lot of money. 659 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 2: He made a lot of money, and also I bet 660 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,759 Speaker 2: Clara wasn't as down for it as he maybe made 661 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 2: her out to be. 662 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,479 Speaker 1: You know, yeah, I think up to Clara, she would 663 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: have probably, given the choice, opted to hang with rhinos. 664 00:37:59,760 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 2: Yep. 665 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's not an ideal scenario. I think 666 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 4: no real like captive situation for a wild animal, especially 667 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 4: the size of a rhino, is going to be ideal. 668 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 4: If it's true that she was without her mother. You know, 669 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 4: now we do kind of have the understanding of how 670 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:25,839 Speaker 4: to potentially rehabilitate young calves in captivity. But then kind 671 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,799 Speaker 4: of socialize them so they understand how to succeed out 672 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 4: in the wild. But maybe back then they didn't understand 673 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 4: that as well, so there may not have been much 674 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 4: of an alternative. 675 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,320 Speaker 2: So you think left to her own devices, she probably 676 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 2: would have like perished, like left alone. 677 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 4: Oh yeah's if she's a yacht like a calf, it's 678 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 4: unlikely without her mother she would survive. I guess it 679 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 4: depends on how young she was. But you know, rhinos 680 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 4: don't have that many natural predators as adults, but the 681 00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 4: calves certainly can get taken down by tigers, and and 682 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 4: she was a I think she was an Indian, that's correct. Yeah, yeah, 683 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 4: so like tigers and humans would be her main threats, 684 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 4: and tiger could certainly take down a young calf. 685 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 2: Well, then maybe I'll give the kindly sea captain a 686 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 2: bit of a pass because the alternative probably not not 687 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 2: a good thing. 688 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:19,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't want sea captains to get the idea 689 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 4: that you should be just like taking rhinos out of 690 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:22,720 Speaker 4: the wild. 691 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: Though, Oh my gosh, our sea captain audience, Katie. 692 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,919 Speaker 2: They just they just turned on, They just turned really tough. 693 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 4: That also, you've lost the coveted Sea captain democrats like our. 694 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 2: Main demo, the Merchants. 695 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: Well, also that that goes for any any animal that's similar, right. 696 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: We we see these these QT stories, for instance, about 697 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 1: a couple in South Africa that has a hippo, right 698 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 1: that lives in their house. But it's very important to 699 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:58,280 Speaker 1: remember that as much as we want to anthropomorphize these things, 700 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: these creatures are fundamentally different animals and there's not a 701 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 1: really compelling reason to take one out of the wild 702 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,319 Speaker 1: other than conserving the species, right, And I think that's 703 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,800 Speaker 1: something that we hit on a lot with these stories. 704 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I completely agree, and I think this 705 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 2: is a really awesome way to take this out of 706 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 2: that kind of fairy tale realm and do a little 707 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 2: bit of a reality check. So thanks again for giving 708 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:27,720 Speaker 2: us that, Katie. 709 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 1: I have one more question. This is purely for my 710 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: curiosity and probably for our listeners as well. Do you yourself 711 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:36,920 Speaker 1: have any pets? 712 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 4: I do? Yeah, so I have a dog named Cookie. 713 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 4: She's a pretty good girl. 714 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 1: It's fantastic. I was going on the off chance that 715 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 1: you might say I actually do have a rhino. But 716 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 1: but let me explain, Well, please say hello to Cookie 717 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 1: for us thank you, as as Minko said, thank you 718 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 1: so much for coming on the show and shedding some 719 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:07,760 Speaker 1: light on the enigma of rhino intelligence and the life 720 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 1: the inner life of animals and captivity. Yeah, for sure. 721 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:12,400 Speaker 2: And this is the thing that you do on the 722 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,239 Speaker 2: regular on your incredible podcast, Creature Feature. Can you tell 723 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,319 Speaker 2: us a little bit about that and where folks can 724 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:18,399 Speaker 2: find you and it. 725 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, So we talk about human behavior and also animal 726 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 4: behavior and sort of the crossroads of these two seemingly 727 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 4: different worlds. And I think as we have these discussions, 728 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:35,759 Speaker 4: we find out that even though you can't necessarily completely 729 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 4: anthropomorphize animals, there's a lot of interesting crossover and behaviors 730 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,400 Speaker 4: that you'll find in animals that are kind of eerily 731 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 4: similar to our own. And we look at it from 732 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:53,720 Speaker 4: the perspective of evolutionary biology and research and clinical psychology. 733 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 4: And so you can find us. Our podcast is called 734 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:04,480 Speaker 4: Creature Feature and it's on iTunes wherever you get your podcasts, 735 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 4: and also the iHeartRadio app, and also you could follow 736 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 4: us on Twitter at Creature Feet pods not feet like 737 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:18,279 Speaker 4: you know and shoes, but feet as an feat. 738 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 1: As in a great accomplishment, I do want to exactly. 739 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,839 Speaker 1: I do want to thank you in particular for an 740 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 1: episode that came out in December, Extrasensory Posception. I appreciate 741 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:36,240 Speaker 1: that episode, in particular exploring the uncanny ways that animals 742 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,880 Speaker 1: are able to perceive the world. So this this stuff 743 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,759 Speaker 1: is great. Of course, I and probably Noel as well, 744 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 1: really enjoy the Dark Tetrat episode. Not just because we're on. 745 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 2: It, no, but it was just like, it was so 746 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 2: cool the way you had a song where we really 747 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 2: didn't do much leg work ahead of time. Oh, it 748 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,600 Speaker 2: just kind of came in and we're able to have 749 00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,960 Speaker 2: a cool conversation with you about animal psychopaths. So yeah, I. 750 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 4: Mean, true crime is the thing now, and I. 751 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 1: Feel like animals. 752 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:06,879 Speaker 2: You gotta get a piece of that true crime pie, 753 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 2: no question. And don't you also run a Twitter account 754 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,759 Speaker 2: where you like are the persona of a bird bird 755 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 2: rights activist? 756 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,879 Speaker 4: Okay, yes, so I'm allegedly the author of at pro 757 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,840 Speaker 4: bird rights bird rights activists, and I am totally a 758 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,320 Speaker 4: real human person and not haven't been paid by birds 759 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:26,960 Speaker 4: to pretend to be. 760 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,040 Speaker 2: Well, that's totally and I gotta I gotta tell you 761 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,239 Speaker 2: real quick, and then knows this everybody who knows me 762 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 2: knows this. I am terrified of birds. I don't like 763 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:39,480 Speaker 2: their weird, little creepy, beady eyes and their unpredictable movements, 764 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 2: and they absolutely give me the creeps and always have. 765 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 2: But I think your account is hilarious and actually you 766 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:46,120 Speaker 2: kind of play into some of the things that I 767 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,319 Speaker 2: find creepy and untrustworthy about birds. 768 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:50,000 Speaker 1: Amazing. 769 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:50,800 Speaker 2: I appreciate that. 770 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 4: Well, they're direct descendants of the t Rex. They're little, little, 771 00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:57,719 Speaker 4: tiny dinosaurs. 772 00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:58,200 Speaker 2: That must be what does it? 773 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:02,360 Speaker 1: And jackdaws core It's in general are just brilliant. You 774 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,680 Speaker 1: can befriend them and they'll teach their young. Oh that's 775 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,640 Speaker 1: a different I would prefer not to dose. You can 776 00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,279 Speaker 1: have all the corvids, you can have them all. But yeah, 777 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,120 Speaker 1: thanks again Katie for coming on the show. Thanks to 778 00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,200 Speaker 1: our super producer Casey Pegram, Thanks to Alex Williams who 779 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:20,920 Speaker 1: composed our theme. Thanks to our research associate Gabe. Katie, 780 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: Thank you again. We hope that you have enjoyed this episode. 781 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 1: We hope that you tune in for our next episode, 782 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,919 Speaker 1: which is going to examine the story of someone who 783 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 1: may indeed be the highest paid athlete in history. Who 784 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,200 Speaker 1: is it? The answer will surprise you. There are several 785 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,080 Speaker 1: ways to find out. We have a way that we 786 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:43,840 Speaker 1: would like you to find out, which is to tune 787 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,400 Speaker 1: into our show. In the meantime, you could say hello 788 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 1: to the best part of our show, your fellow listeners 789 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 1: on our Facebook page, Ridiculous Historians. 790 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. You can check me out on Instagram at Embryonic Insider. 791 00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: I am Ben Bollen in a burst of creativity. That's 792 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 1: the name I chose on Instagram and see pictures of 793 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 1: my pets and my various weird adventures. Did I tell 794 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:05,439 Speaker 1: you I'm ended up in Korea again? 795 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,399 Speaker 2: Yeah? No, you did. You wouldn't tell me. You said 796 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,320 Speaker 2: you had a thing you weren't able to record. Yeah, 797 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:11,600 Speaker 2: it's okay, okay, Well, thanks for thanks for the infat 798 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:22,280 Speaker 2: but we'll see you next time. Folks. For more podcasts 799 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,800 Speaker 2: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 800 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:27,480 Speaker 2: you listen to your favorite shows.