WEBVTT - ‘Don’t Be Creepy’ with Elizabeth Williams 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.120 Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where after two 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:06.520 days spent at the luxurious O High Valley in We've 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:09.760 decided to move permanently to OHI, raise some horses and 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:10.600 make olive oil. 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:12.680 Somebody ship my dogs and husband. 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:15.160 On today's show, we talked to Chicago Sky Center and 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:18.040 WNBA Players Association Executive Committee. 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:19.639 Member Elizabeth Williams about what's. 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:21.880 At stake in the next CBA, why the union decided 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:24.720 to opt out, and what players expect from journalists who 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:26.880 covered the league. We'll get you caught up on all 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:29.920 the latest headlines tomorrow, but today is all about our 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:30.800 Elizabeth interview. 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:41.559 It's coming up right after this joining us now. 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:43.920 She's a forward for the Chicago Sky of the WNBA. 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:46.720 After immigrating from England, she played college ball at Duke. 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:49.160 Was drafted by the Connecticut Sun fourth overall in twenty 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:51.360 fifteen and was traded to Atlanta the next year. She 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:53.760 played for the Dream from twenty sixteen to twenty twenty one, 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:56.000 spent a season with the Mystics, then joined the Sky 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:58.760 in twenty twenty three. She was the twenty sixteen WNBA 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:01.440 Most Improved Player and an All start in twenty seventeen. 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:05.039 She's the secretary of the WNBA Players Association Executive Committee. 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:07.440 She's played in Turkey, China and Russia. 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.040 She helped kick Kelly Loaffler's butt to the curb, elect 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:12.640 Raphaele Warnock and flip the freak and said it it's 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:13.800 Elizabeth Williams. 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:15.200 What's up, Elizabeth, what's up. 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:16.640 That's quite the intro, Thank you. 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:19.880 It's quite the resume, especially that last part. 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:22.520 I want to get to that later, but I want 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:25.679 to start with an impressive ten years in the w 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:28.840 Now you have seen it change dramatically from your rookie 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:30.479 season to this year, and I'm really excited to pick 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:32.320 your brain about a whole bunch of stuff. But I 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:33.920 want to start with the biggest news of the week, 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:37.919 besides the liberty winning at all, of course, the WNBA 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:40.720 electing to opt out of the current CBA. I want 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:43.119 you to take us behind the scenes of the executive committee. 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:46.040 When did the conversations about opting out really get going 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:47.039 in earnest. 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:52.960 Yeah, I mean, honestly, those conversations start pretty early. I mean, 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:56.680 coming into last season, we started having some of the 0:01:56.720 --> 0:02:00.400 conversations because you know, you're saying, okay, at the end 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:03.320 of next season, a decision has to be made, and 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.800 then I would probably just say, you know, after All 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:10.200 Star break is when we really like rep the engine 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:14.120 as far as having more conversations and more phone calls. 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:19.120 We also met with advisors at All Stars, so also 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:21.720 was a good opportunity when all the players were around 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:24.880 for us to communicate about, you know, what an opt 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:28.240 out could look like, what our advisory team could look like. 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:30.960 And so, you know, after All Star Break, I think 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:34.280 that's when you know, the real conversations were at. 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:36.079 What are some of the priorities for the players when 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:37.440 you're heading into negotiations. 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:42.840 Salary is probably the biggest one, just because when you 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:46.200 think about the growth of our league, you know, the 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:51.880 viewership has grown, Jersey sales have grown, all of those things, 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:55.800 ticket sales, all that stuff, but the salaries haven't grown 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:59.760 as well. So that's probably the first, like big ticket item. 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:05.240 But in general, just you know, improving and having minimum 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:09.880 standards for practice facilities, game facilities, and charter flights is 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:12.840 another big one. I think a lot of people you know, 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:15.480 saw that we got charter flights this year, but you 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:18.120 know that's not currently in our CBA. It's nothing on paper. 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:21.200 It's really just Kathy saying, you know, we've allocated these 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:23.799 funds to charters, and it's like, okay, well we need 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:26.280 to see that in writing if we're going to keep 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:29.119 very smart forward. So, yeah, those are probably the top three, 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:33.200 but I mean there are so many others, and yeah, 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:36.160 so there's there's a lot of conversations we had. 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:39.840 I think for the most part, barring trolls and morons, 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:45.160 we've gotten past the idiotic conversation around WNBA players asking 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:49.200 for the same dollars as NBA players. Everybody understands that's 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:51.680 not a financial reality for the league. Yet we've gotten 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:55.400 to revenue share, which is usually what we're pointing to 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.080 now when the players are asking for a larger percentage 0:03:58.080 --> 0:03:59.200 of what the league is making. 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:00.800 There's a cop iplication. 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.280 There, and that the WNBA controls forty two percent of 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:06.480 its cap table, the NBA controls forty two percent, and 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:08.760 then an investment group that was part of this capital 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.160 race a couple of years ago owns the remaining sixteen percent. 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:13.160 So less than half of the revenue of the league 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:15.920 doesn't flow directly back to the league itself. How does 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:18.799 that impact the w's ability to increase the revenue percentage 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.280 that goes to players even if they want to. Are 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:23.560 they limited in their ability to give the players what 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:26.000 they want sometimes as a result of that structure. 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:27.520 Oh slightly. 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:31.799 But fortunately with negotiating a new CBA, you can also 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:34.320 change that structure. Like, we have a lot of flexibility 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:37.760 in negotiating what that structure looks like. Now you know 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:43.919 we can model based on other cbas. So I think, 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:47.440 you know, we're cautiously optimistic in what that new revenue 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:51.800 model could look like. And I think it's important to, 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:55.719 you know, realize, for a league to be in existence 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:59.000 for almost thirty years, like everything can't be failing, right, 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:02.560 everything can't be gone I's wrong. So there are things 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:06.200 that are increasing and there are ways that we can 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:07.400 maximize that as players. 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:09.840 Yeah, I mean, I think it's hard that we're constantly 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.719 talking about WNBA teams losing money and we completely ignore 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:20.200 that NBA teams report losses regularly. The NETS loss fifty 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:22.080 to one hundred million dollars in twenty twenty two. And 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:24.640 the reason I have those generic numbers that are fifty 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:27.320 million dollars up or down is because there's not a 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:30.640 lot of transparency how difficult is it for y'all when 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:33.560 there isn't a lot of transparency, at least publicly for 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:35.920 us to really understand dollars in and out. 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:39.760 It is very difficult. It's hard for us, hard for 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:44.720 the advisors, and we're obviously going to ask for transparency 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:48.760 for this negotiation process to go well. And I think 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:53.880 when it comes to like yearly losses, it's it's funny 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:57.240 that people consider it for us and not for you know, 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:01.680 the MBA teams because in reality, you know, these owners 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:05.120 of NBA teams are still owning those teams, which means, 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:07.159 you know, the franchise values are going up. Like those 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:11.160 are things that the millionaires and billionaires are considering that 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:13.680 I think a lot of like the layperson doesn't consider 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.080 when it comes to owning sports teams. And so we 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.400 have all of these things in our mind in you know, 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:22.799 trying to make sure that we're negotiating on our behalf. 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:23.919 Yeah. 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:26.400 Part of the reason the current CBA is no longer 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:28.920 a fit and needs to be renegotiated a couple years 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:31.279 in advance is because of the tremendous growth in recent 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:36.040 years and especially this season, record attendance, viewership, merch sales. 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.440 Interest in the league is exploding, which is positive, but 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:41.960 with that comes from growing pains. How much of the 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:47.320 increase in toxicity, the unhinged comments and unhinged commentary did 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:49.279 you expect coming to this season, and how much of 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:50.239 it came as a surprise. 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.560 I mean, it's like how I see it, Like we've 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:57.599 always kind of had the trolls, but I think it's 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:00.920 changed from like stay in the kitchen. Now you guys 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.440 are asking for too much, So it's like, Okay, well 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:07.680 now you're watching. I guess you know, like like the 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:11.920 trolls have always existed, but yeah, it's it's been way 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:17.440 more intense, way more misogynistic, racist, like all those things. 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:20.320 I mean, I think any player in this league could 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:22.960 show you their DMS and people would be very surprised 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:25.840 by the stuff they see. And I mean part of 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:29.520 it is like just you know, the narratives around the 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:33.800 rookie class. Part of it is the intense sports betting 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:37.560 and how people just like bet with no sense and 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:41.280 no regard for the humanity of players or. 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:44.040 Their own bank accounts or their own bank accounts, like 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:45.960 those are very problematic things. 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:51.080 So that entire combination was not ideal, but at the 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:54.640 end of the day, the numb like having you know, 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:57.880 an increase in viewership is important, and I mean, I 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:00.880 think there are some people that did consider the league 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:04.480 before that have become true fans, and so you know, 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:06.920 we try to focus on those people and not let 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:10.160 the negativity, you know, drive the narrative, because at the 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:13.400 end of the day, there's I mean, amazing players that 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:16.320 are in now, amazing players that are going to come in, 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:19.600 and you know, as someone who's part of the ec like, 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:23.600 that's what you anticipate in negotiating, you're negotiating for the 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:24.320 future as well. 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.000 We got to take a quick break. Don't move a muscle. 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:36.840 You know. 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:39.559 It's interesting the beginning of the league, there were high 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:43.160 profiles men predominantly in sports that were used in the 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.720 WNBA as a punchline. Then the league settled in and 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:49.200 they started to just sort of ignore it, which wasn't good, 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:52.040 but at least didn't contribute. And then this year it's 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:54.520 like these high profile voices came back around to pay 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:57.360 attention but didn't do the work to understand the league, 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:01.160 didn't contribute to conversations a lot of meaningful ways, and 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:04.480 actually contributed to some of the toxicity. So you've got 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:06.920 what you said, which is like, we've always had trolls, 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:09.720 but now we've got these super high profile voices with 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:15.880 a big audience that were elevating and repeating narratives that 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:18.320 were created by the trolls because they weren't doing the 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:20.480 work and they weren't understanding the nuance. So they were 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:24.360 creating or building off of stories that weren't vetted or 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:27.080 coming from the right place. And I think that's what 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:30.480 made it really challenging. I wonder we talked about on 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:33.360 this show a couple different times how in the past, 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:37.920 when the league itself or society wasn't getting something right, 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:40.200 oftentimes the players of the W were the ones that 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:42.560 came together and said, let's put our heads together and 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:45.960 do something about it. I talked about kicking Kelly Loffler 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:49.720 to the curb and helping change the Senate. That was 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:53.440 like something that the W players came together, you included 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:53.680 to do. 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:56.480 I was a little bit surprised. 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:01.240 That this season the league or the player didn't have 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:05.000 more of a plan in advance, seeing the Caitlin Clark 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:08.040 Angelry stuff coming down the pike and anticipating how that 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:11.640 might continue to build and grow in snowball during the season. 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:16.400 Have the players spoken behind the scenes about changing this 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:19.760 season's environment or being able to change things going toward 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:20.240 next year. 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:21.319 Yeah, it's tough. 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:24.280 I mean, I think we anticipated some of it, but 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:29.040 not all of it. And I think they're the media 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:34.240 has a duty, especially you know, the higher profile people 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:36.880 in the media that hadn't necessarily covered the league before. 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:41.760 I think they do have an obligation to report fairly. 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:44.720 Like that's part of, you know, the integrity of being 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:48.240 in the media space. And I don't think that always happened, 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.280 And so for us, I think as players, it's like 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:54.920 what can we do? I mean, we have to answer questions, 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:58.160 like we have to be available and we can be as. 0:10:58.040 --> 0:10:59.240 Respectful as possible. 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:04.679 I think there was definitely a disconnect in you know, 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:09.680 how we communicate that we're frustrated and bothered by some 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:13.160 of the things that are happening, but also, you know, 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:16.160 we still want to show who we are and be 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:16.760 you know. 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:20.000 Respectful athletes. But yeah, I also. 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:23.440 Think that things snowballed in a way that players didn't 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:25.760 really have a lot of control over. And I think 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:28.000 that that is where the league kind of had more 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:31.680 of the duty than us, Like, realistically, our duty is 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:34.840 to play and to put a good product out and 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:36.319 other people write the stories. 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:36.520 You know. 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:39.679 The reason we had that conversation was actually because we 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:43.240 were just so used to oftentimes players being failed by 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:45.320 the teams and leagues and having to step up. It 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:48.640 was really after Kathy Engelbert's sort of fumbling of the 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:54.439 question about the increase in toxicity and sort of spinning 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:57.400 it into a positive around a rivalry, that we started 0:11:57.440 --> 0:11:59.640 to think, if leadership isn't going to be able to 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:02.240 handle the enormity of this situation, it might come down 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.400 to the players. So absolutely, your job is to play 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:07.800 and not to have to deal with all that. You've 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:11.240 just got such a good resume of doing the big 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:12.640 things and handling the big things. 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:14.280 And I think that's why we were all like, the 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:15.800 players will fix it, they'll. 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:16.120 Bigure something out. 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:18.560 But I also think that's why we ended up with 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:21.440 that statement towards the end of the season that Terry 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:25.280 put out like that was absolutely backed by player leadership. 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:27.480 She was just, you know, the person who signed off 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:30.640 on it. But it was kind of like the Christine 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:34.040 Brennan situation was kind of the last straw. It wasn't 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:36.800 solely about her, but it just, you know, happened to 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:39.400 be her in this situation and how things had gone 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:42.960 on over the season, and that was I mean, but 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:46.360 as to what you're saying, it probably came too late, 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:49.319 and so I think that's why that situation got the 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:51.800 feedback that it did, because it's like, why didn't this 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:55.199 come sooner? But it's also like it shouldn't have had 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:59.040 to come period, but players still felt like something had 0:12:59.040 --> 0:12:59.520 to be said. 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:02.599 Yeah, the PA issued a statement about the work of 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:05.880 Christine Brennan, particularly the interview with Djna Carrington about the 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:08.560 incidental conduct she had with Kitlyn Clark in a playoff game. 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:12.320 I'm wondering, you know, when the PA decided to put 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:15.199 out that statement specifically Abrett Brennan. Were there also other 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:18.040 outlets or journalists that contributed to these larger issues that 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:20.840 you felt you wanted to speak on and felt like 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:24.000 you couldn't before or My impression was that there was 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.720 an expectation of Christine that you wouldn't have for some 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:28.800 other outlets who will not be named on this show 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:31.000 because I don't want anyone giving them clicks or going 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:32.880 to look at them, but ones that you sort of 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.160 expect that are shit posting that it never respected women, 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:38.840 will never respect women, aren't attempting to do a good coverage, 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:41.240 and in my opinion, is always best to ignore them 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:44.360 and let them yell at the wall or the five 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:47.640 people that they have paying attention. Is that why Christine 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:50.520 was centered, because I imagine there's plenty of other outlets 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:53.880 or people that kind of didn't do right by the 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:55.920 work that was required to cover the team and the 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:56.719 league this year too. 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:01.440 Yeah, definitely, I think that was the bigger issue, you know, 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:04.960 like you have expectations for certain people in the media, 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:08.840 and I think just because of how everything was handled, 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:11.760 we were bothered that it came from her, because, like 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:13.680 we mentioned earlier in the show, there are people that 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:19.000 haven't necessarily watched or covered women's basketball extensively and use 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:22.280 us as punchlines before and are now trying to spin 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.760 the block, whereas she's someone who's kind of seen it 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:29.640 all and got caught up in narratives, you know, and 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.520 it's like, Okay, this is someone that we should be 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:33.720 trusting to cover as. 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:36.800 Properly right and there's a weight to what she says. 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:40.200 Because of her tenure speaking for women and fighting for women, 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:42.680 people will assume that it's coming from a place that's 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:45.840 educated and informed, and so when it furthers certain narratives, 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:48.080 it hits different than someone that you're sort of. 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.040 Like, Ah, he doesn't know what he's talking about. 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:52.040 He just got here. Yeah. 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:53.600 You know, you and I spoke a couple of weeks ago, 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.360 and you said that the players can handle tough journalism. 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.560 You can handle professional questions, you can handle being challenged. 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.280 You don't want reporters to be fans or sick of fans. 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:05.280 You understand that the growth of the league and growing 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:09.200 women's sports means covering them like sports and not just cheerleading. 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:12.080 Do you think that some folks have the wrong idea 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:15.440 about what players are asking for when it comes to coverage. 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:19.840 Yeah, so I think that people do generally have the 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:24.800 wrong idea on how we respond to criticism and proper journalism. 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:27.040 I think for us in twenty twenty, to. 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:32.120 Literally wear vote warn oct shirts and influence an election, 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:36.000 we're pretty much built for anything. Because that's kind of 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:41.480 the highest level of influence and controls and of difficult conversations. 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:45.000 So yeah, I think we're open to all of it, 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:47.280 and you know, growth definitely comes with that. 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.280 Yeah. I mean at espnW, which I've been working on 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:54.560 for fourteen years, we understood that a pivot was necessary. 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:57.880 At the beginning of our work, it was really about supporting, spotlighting, 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.200 highlighting women athletes, and there was a moment where we said, Okay, 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:04.800 we got to really start to be covering these athletes 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:06.680 in these leagues and these teams with the same critical 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:07.600 eye that we do mends. 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:08.640 That's how you advance it. 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:11.200 And it feels like the w players understand that this 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:15.000 exponential growth is huge and with it will come more criticism, 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:17.320 more eyeballs, more people call in for someone to get 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:19.960 benched or fired or whatever it is. And that's fine 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:23.240 if it's done with an understanding and a nuanced respect 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:26.200 for the players in the league itself. And I would 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:29.680 assume that a lot of you, very very very smart, 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:33.920 multifaceted people would actually welcome that. I actually think it's 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.200 interesting to see the league covered in a way that 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:37.239 feels more professional. 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.760 Yeah, definitely, and I think the discourse would for the 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:43.960 most part reflect that. I think Briana Turner has the 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:49.040 funniest tweets, and she made a joke like because somebody 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.000 was talking about her minutes or something, and she's like, 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:53.280 at least this is the conversation I'd rather have, is 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:55.200 an he's talking about you know what I look at 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.400 like her, you know, So it's like we'll welcome those 0:16:58.520 --> 0:16:58.960 for sure. 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:01.840 That's what I always I'm like, if someone disagrees with 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:04.200 my sports takes, bring it on. It's like, why does 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:06.280 it always come back to like you're ugly, you're fat 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:09.119 or whatever, you shouldn't even be here, Like, let's just 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:12.920 argue about the shit I'm talking about. Yeah, have there 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:18.840 been you know, conversations about how over the years access 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:21.920 has changed and whether that's impacted the relationships you can 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:25.160 have with reporters to make those conversations more informed and better, 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:27.680 because I know the w move journalists out of locker 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:30.399 rooms and into other spaces for interviews. 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:32.720 We had a long time baseball. 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:34.840 Journalist on the show, Melissa Lucky, helped fight for women 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.280 to actually get access to locker rooms, and we asked 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:39.240 her about some of that in the changing space, and 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:41.919 she said she understands the desire to give athletes their 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:45.960 own space understands that there's you know, that sort of 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:49.480 special space just for the athletes, but she also said 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:51.639 there's nowhere like a locker room to get the good stuff, 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:55.359 the relationships, the vibes, the honesty, and to truly tell 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:56.320 the story of a team. 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:57.639 What's your response to that. 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.000 Yeah, So I've been been in the league a while, 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:04.520 so I remember when the locker room was open, and 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:08.719 I remember when it was closed, and I think just 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:11.720 the changing dynamic of players as well and what they're 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:16.800 comfortable with, you might not see the same results of 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:18.679 opening the locker room as you did in the past. 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.520 And so I think we have done a good job of, 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:26.760 you know, making ourselves available to media. Just outside the 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:32.800 locker room, we're available, you know, pregame shoot around, Like 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:36.400 there are more times that were available that weren't before. 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:39.600 So I could see how before it's like, oh yeah, 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:41.119 I definitely need to get in the locker room, whereas 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.880 now it's like I have so many different opportunities to 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:46.720 see the players on the court, you know, last fifteen 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:48.840 minutes to shoot around and then talk to them, not 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:53.240 necessarily in our space. So yeah, I'm definitely a fan 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:55.879 of keeping the locker room closed and still having a 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:58.720 good line of communication with with our reporters. 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.920 Yeah, and it's it's slightly different when newspapers ruled the 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:05.440 day and that's where you had to go to get information. 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:08.679 It was so based on deadline and really you almost 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:11.520 had to hold players captive immediately after the game ended 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:14.600 and as quickly as possible get folks in. That still 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:16.240 exists and a lot of people want to turn their 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:19.080 nose about that, but newspapers still have a pretty big role. 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:21.800 And same with television. Television wanting to get in there 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:24.120 and then immediately be able to have an after show 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:27.000 or a post show where they're showing pressers, they're doing interviews, 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:29.240 they're turning around clips. So as someone who's been in 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:32.000 locker rooms, I totally get that. I also covered teams 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.000 like the Chicago Cubs when Milton Bradley was on the team, 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:37.320 and he would try to hide in the shower and 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:40.280 stay in there until the time had passed and not 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:43.200 talk to anyone. So like, it didn't fix all the problems, 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:45.679 but it did fix a little bit people who were 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:48.720 reticent to speak or would try to get around the. 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:50.800 Necessity of engaging with journalists. 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:53.040 And I know a lot of people who don't like 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:56.639 the media will say that's their prerogative, but I always say, like, 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:58.400 part of the reason that you get to be paid 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:00.480 a lot as a pro athlete is that your stuff 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:03.040 is covered by TV and TV rights deals and so 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:05.199 like that's part of the game, is like, you know, 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:08.080 being in a relationship with journalists. So I'm torn on 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:09.919 this because there's also a lot of creepers in the 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:12.679 WNBA and women's sports in general. There are people, and 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.479