1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We are on vacation, but that doesn't 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: mean we don't have a great show for you Today. 5 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: The New Yorker's own John Cebrook stops by to talk 6 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: about his new book, The Spinach King, The Rise and 7 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: Fall of an American Dynasty. But first we have MSNBC's 8 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: The Weekend anchor Jonathan k Part to talk about his 9 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: new book, Yet Here I Am Lessons from a Black 10 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: Man Search for Home. Welcome to Vast Politics, Jonathan cape. 11 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 2: Part, Hey, Molly, thank you for having me. 12 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: I'm so excited to have you. 13 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm a little horse. 14 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: Let's start with this book. I want to know sort 15 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: of how you decided to write this, what the way was, 16 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,160 Speaker 1: And I want to know for my own ratification, how 17 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: scary it is to write about ourselves. 18 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 2: You know, during the Trump years, the first years in 19 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen, as a way of escaping sort of the 20 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 2: mayhem of the first Trump years, I decided, you know what, 21 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 2: all these stories that I've had in my head about 22 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: my summers as a kid at my grandparents A's in 23 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: North Carolina. I need to write these down. They're very 24 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 2: vivid memories, very formative in terms of how I see 25 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,960 Speaker 2: the world, how I see the country, how I view race, 26 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 2: and so I just wrote them down. They became the 27 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 2: shorthand was the down South chapter, all about going Jehovah's 28 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 2: witnessing with my grandmother and the people and who we 29 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 2: talked to and relatives, and I sent it around to friends. 30 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 2: I sent it around to three specific people, April, Ryan, 31 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 2: Tammeron Hall, and Joy Read, and I asked, what do 32 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 2: you think of this? Each one individually said this is incredible. 33 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 2: Keep going, And so I kept going. I didn't have 34 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 2: a publisher or anything. I just wrote and would send 35 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 2: them and other people like, yeah, here's another story, here's 36 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 2: some more pages, and they just encourage me to keep going. 37 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 2: And so when I got the book contract years later, 38 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 2: I had two particular books in mind that formed how 39 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: I would go about writing this very personal book. The 40 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 2: first one was by Katherine Graham, her By Autobiography, personal history. 41 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 2: If anyone listening hasn't read it, you should pick it 42 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 2: up because it is raw, honest. Katherine Graham was the 43 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 2: most powerful woman in journalism in her time, and one 44 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 2: of the most powerful women in the country, and yet 45 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 2: in her book she talks about her fraught relationship with 46 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 2: her mother, She talks about her own insecurities being publisher 47 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 2: of The Washington Post. It was really when I read 48 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 2: it in the late nineties early two thousands, it was 49 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: incredibly refreshing to read something so powerful and honest from 50 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 2: someone so important. And then fast forward twenty years to 51 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 2: Charles Blow's memoir Fire Shut Up in My Bones and 52 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 2: again raw, honest, candid, introspective, and it was wonderful to 53 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 2: read because it put into perspective and context the passion 54 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 2: that fueled Charles's columns in the New York Times. And 55 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 2: so I thought, if I were to ever get a 56 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 2: book contract, that's the way I will write my book. 57 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 2: I will be raw, I will be honest about my 58 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 2: successes but also my failures, absolutely honest about my failures 59 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 2: and shortcomings. And when I got the contract, that's exactly 60 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 2: what I did. Oh and our mutual friend Richie Jackson, 61 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 2: when I really started writing, gave me the best piece 62 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 2: of advice because he had just finished writing Gay Like Me, 63 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 2: and he said, Jonathan, put yourself on every page, be 64 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: sure to do that. That's what I did, so, with 65 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 2: Katherine Graham on one side, Charles Blow on the other side, 66 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 2: and Richie Jackson sitting on my head, I went about 67 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: putting myself on every page so that when people read 68 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 2: the book, yet here I am, they will understand that 69 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 2: perhaps maybe the image they have of me all buttoned 70 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 2: up and looking rather nice and everything. You know. My 71 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 2: hope is that they will see that that's just their 72 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 2: image of me. It's not fully who I am. 73 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: We both have written these very personal memoirs, and I 74 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: feel like one of the things that is sort of 75 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: the hallmark of the Trump administration is that they kind 76 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: of go after you for anything they can. I mean, 77 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: we've seen that. I think of like Eugene, they were, 78 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 1: you know, trolling him for just any number of things 79 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: one of the things. And they've certainly told me endlessly. 80 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: And I was always very careful about my public information 81 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: because of my mother. She had a stalker, and so 82 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: we were always very careful because we always knew that 83 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: guy was coming for us. But I just wonder, here 84 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: we are writing these very personal thinkes I am having 85 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: the same experience in some ways for me, is very scary. 86 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 2: I did not grow up in the way that you did, 87 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 2: and so for you, safety and security is ever present. 88 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 2: You know that wasn't my upbringing. So as you know 89 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 2: I'm writing this, I'm not thinking about that. I'm thinking 90 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 2: about who am I going to help by being this honest? 91 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 2: And by that I mean, yes, I'm an outgay black man, 92 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 2: But there are pieces of my story and experience that 93 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 2: are universal. And my hope is when people read this 94 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 2: that they will see parts of themselves, pieces of themselves, 95 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 2: or if they don't, an experience that I've got that 96 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 2: I've written about that maybe they're going through now or 97 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 2: they went through and it gets them to think about 98 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 2: it in a different way. That has been my goal 99 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 2: the other goal. One goal is here, get to know 100 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 2: me better, and the other goal is, Hey, through these 101 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 2: experiences I you will take to heart some of the 102 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 2: lessons that are you know, sprinkled throughout the book. 103 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 1: It's funny because it's like the experience of being able 104 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: to be who you are in the world is pretty 105 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: new phenomenon. I mean, one hundred years ago, it wasn't that. 106 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: Why for example, I talk about being sober all the 107 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: time because I want to destigmatize alcoholism. I want to say, 108 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 1: you don't have to be ashamed. You can get sober, 109 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 1: you can go to AI, nobody's judging you, and you 110 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,239 Speaker 1: can have this amazing life. So I do wonder how 111 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: important it is for us just by the sheer facts 112 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: of being an out gay man, being someone who's an 113 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: alcoholic who got sober when they were teenager, Like, how 114 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 1: important that just that is in the world. 115 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 2: It's very important. I'll speak for myself, you know, I've 116 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 2: always wanted to be a journalist. Becoming an opinion writer. 117 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 2: An opinion columnist was not, you know, in the life plan. 118 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 2: But when I realized that this platform that I'd been given, 119 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 2: when my editor said, hey, you should write columns, and 120 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 2: I started, you know, putting more and more of myself 121 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 2: in the columns, is when I started hearing from people. 122 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 2: When I started hearing you know, hey, I never thought 123 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 2: of it that way, especially on matters of race. When 124 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: I started realizing that my audience was you know, heavily 125 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: African American, but it was also non people of color, 126 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 2: and for many of them, I was their gateway. I 127 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 2: was there entree to understanding stuff that was happening. So 128 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 2: when Trayvon Martin was killed, and I wrote the column 129 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 2: that talked about the talk and the rules that I 130 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: was told, you know, don't run in public, definitely, don't 131 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 2: run with anything in your hands in public. All the 132 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 2: things that I do, the number of people I heard 133 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 2: from who said I never knew this. I had one 134 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: colleague at MSNBC come up to me in the weeks 135 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,119 Speaker 2: after tears in her eye and he said, she said, 136 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 2: I never knew that those conversations were happening. She said 137 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 2: her son's best friend was black, and that he was 138 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 2: over their house all the time. She knew his parents 139 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 2: and everything, but she never knew that when he left 140 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 2: their home, the conversations that were happening. And so once 141 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 2: you understand that, the responsibility that comes with that. I 142 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 2: looked at that as Okay, I see people are looking 143 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:39,359 Speaker 2: to me to guide them, and it's not my responsibility personally, 144 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 2: but professionally sure. And the more I hear from people 145 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 2: who say, you know, you helped me, the more you realize, Wow, 146 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,559 Speaker 2: with this platform comes responsibility and so how am I 147 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 2: going to use that? And so I've been using it, 148 00:08:54,920 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 2: putting it in service of helping move the dialogue, help 149 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 2: people I don't know, get beyond their pretty conceived notions 150 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 2: or their hard fast beliefs because they trust me. That's 151 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 2: the hope I. 152 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 3: Have found for me. 153 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: That it's been a very destabilizing time in American life. 154 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: You know, we have gone from backlash to backlash to backlash. 155 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 1: Have you found it destabilizing? 156 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 2: Destabilizing in the sense that the world as we knew 157 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 2: it has been completely. 158 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: Upended again and again and again. 159 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 2: Right, and so the shock and trauma of twenty seventeen 160 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 2: now looks quaint compared to what we're going through. And 161 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 2: so you know, with his reelection, I knew right away 162 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 2: that I needed to protect my own inner piece, my 163 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 2: own sanity, And so you know, I don't. I mean, 164 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 2: I pay attention to the news and watch the news, 165 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 2: but I make sure that I have breaks, and I'm 166 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: make sure that by protecting my inner piece, I don't 167 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 2: burn myself out. Because of what I was saying before, 168 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 2: there are lots of people who are looking to me, 169 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 2: looking to you, looking to many of our colleagues to 170 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 2: help guide them through this really tough time. 171 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's right. When you're talking about this, 172 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: I think so much about how we have I mean, 173 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: there's so much disruption, such short intervals. And I think 174 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 1: a lot about this interview I did with this tech 175 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: billionaire who I was interviewing, and I was like mad 176 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: at him because I think he's a bad guy pretending 177 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: to be a good guy. He was saying that the 178 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: level of disruption that has happened because of I mean, 179 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: I didn't grow up with the phone. We didn't have 180 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: phone that they're just this with, Like the world that 181 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: I grew. 182 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 3: Up in is gone. You know. 183 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: I come from nineteen nineties magazine like everything that I 184 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: was taught to believe. I mean, it's so funny for 185 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: me to go back to writing a book because I 186 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: come from writing books, so that you know, I've seen 187 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: the magazine rule just appended in every different way. But 188 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: books are, in its own way, the same terrible business 189 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:20,719 Speaker 1: that they've always been. 190 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 2: I will, I will take your word for it, because 191 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,719 Speaker 2: this is my first book, and it has been an 192 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 2: interesting process. Writing the book is actually what was fun. 193 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 2: You know. I look at writing as you know, putting 194 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 2: together a jigsaw puzzle. Writing the column is a five 195 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 2: hundred piece puzzle. Writing this book was a ten thousand 196 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 2: piece puzzle of blue sky, green trees and sand and 197 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,439 Speaker 2: trying to figure that out was fun. But then afterwards, 198 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 2: no one told me that I had to read more 199 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 2: than one you know, edited draft of the book. By 200 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 2: the time I read the fourth you know, final pass through, 201 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 2: I was like, God, damn it, I'm bored. So it's 202 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 2: going to read this book and then have to do that. 203 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 2: It's the whole build up to lunch, and then there's 204 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 2: the lunch. I mean, you've been through this, not. 205 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: For ten years, not for a long time, so I 206 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: mean it's a little bit different than it used to be, 207 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: and the fact that everything has changed, the fact that 208 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: the entire world has changed. But I do think when 209 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: you have to read, when you're reading the book again 210 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: and again, what I find for me that's hard is 211 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: and why I'm not a good editor of my own work, 212 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 1: which is actually something that's important and it's good to 213 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,839 Speaker 1: be good at, is because when I read things too 214 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: many times, I sort of fall in love with the 215 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: worst parts of it. You know, I love very flowery writing. 216 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with pros. I've gotten worse about that in 217 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: my older age, so especially in the world of AI, 218 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: I just am so delighted when things are beautiful and 219 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: feel like Diddy and that even if they don't move 220 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: this story along, I don't give a fuck, which you know, 221 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: it's not actually what anyone wants. I wonder if we 222 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: could talk for a minute about kind of staying sane 223 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: in a crazy world. And during the election, I was 224 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: on television at the very I was on for the 225 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 1: coveted three am to six Am spot. When I went 226 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: to go sit down at the desk, I saw Rachel 227 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: Matta and I sat to her like, oh my god, 228 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: how the fuck are we going to survive this? And 229 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: she said, You're going to get up tomorrow morning. You're 230 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: going to go on Morning Joe, and you're going to 231 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: help these people because you know this idea that we're 232 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: going to get up there and just tell people the 233 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: news and help them get through it. Is that what 234 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: drives you? And how do you do it? 235 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 2: As you were asking that question, I was pulling out 236 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 2: my book because I know I have the perfect answer. 237 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 2: You know, during Trump one, I was just trying to 238 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 2: cope with the torrent of news. I was reading David 239 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:06,239 Speaker 2: Blight's Mammoth biography of Frederick Douglas, and in the introduction 240 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 2: there was this paragraph that was so sweeping in its 241 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 2: scope that it gave me perspective, the perspective I needed 242 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 2: to give me hope. I want to read it if 243 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 2: you don't mind. This is from David Blite. He's writing 244 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 2: about Frederick Douglas. He writes, the orator and writer lived 245 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 2: to see an interpret black emancipation, to work actively for 246 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 2: women's rights long before they were achieved, to realize the 247 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 2: civil rights triumphs and tragedies of reconstruction, and to witness 248 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 2: and contribute to America's economic and international expansion in the 249 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 2: Gilded Age. He lived to the age of lynching and 250 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 2: Jim Crow laws, when America collapsed into retreat from the 251 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 2: very victories and revolutions in race relations he helped to win, 252 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 2: and I go on to write. What gave me hope, 253 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 2: in Blite's words, was the sweep of Douglas's life. A 254 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 2: man who was born a slave and escaped, who was 255 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 2: a celebrated orator against the sin of slavery and saw 256 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 2: the end of that evil institution. Douglas played a part 257 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 2: in the nation reaching toward its founding ideals during Reconstruction, 258 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 2: and then the great man lived long enough to see 259 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 2: all the gains he fought for the reverse by Congress, 260 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 2: the courts, and the President during the terror of the 261 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 2: Jim Crow era. My story is proof that Douglas's fight 262 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 2: was not lost, that as bad as things are, they 263 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 2: won't stay that way. I am a descendant of slaves 264 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 2: whose parents were born and raised in the segregated Jim 265 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 2: Crow South. My cousins and I are the first generation 266 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 2: in our family who didn't have to pick cotton. My 267 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: story is the story of an only child, mama's boy, 268 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 2: who had dreams of being a journalist and no roadmap 269 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 2: for how to achieve them. I'm a black man who 270 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: writes for the Washington Post, anchors a show on MSNBC, 271 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 2: and serves as a political analyst on PBS News Hour. 272 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 2: And I'm an out gay man who was able to 273 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 2: marry the man I love and have the ceremony officiated 274 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 2: by the Attorney General of the United States, who made 275 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 2: a key determination that made it possible. Think about that 276 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 2: the sweep of Douglas's life. What that showed me was 277 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 2: history happens in a cycle. We go in a cycle. 278 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 2: History is not linear. It whins, and for every step forward, 279 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 2: there might be three steps back. And so for me 280 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 2: to read those words about Frederick Douglas in that year 281 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen, how could I not look at that and think, Wow, 282 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 2: I should remain hopeful. It put for me everything into perspective. 283 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 2: You know what I like in it too, what I 284 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 2: tell people, think of it as being on a really bad, 285 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 2: turbulent flight. It's uncomfortable, you hate it, You palms are sweaty, 286 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 2: your heart's racing. You think you're gonna die, but you don't. 287 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 2: You literally get through it. It is my hope that 288 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 2: as bad as these times are, as turbulent as these 289 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 2: times are, that we will get through it on the 290 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 2: other side. But no one should fool themselves into thinking 291 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 2: that it's not going to be rough. You know, it's 292 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 2: sort of like the pilot has already come on and said, 293 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 2: flight attendants and beverage service get back in your seats. 294 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 2: We're going to go. We're going through some rough air, 295 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 2: and the pilot doesn't tell you how long it's going 296 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 2: to last. 297 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, Thank you. 298 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 2: Jonathan Gabar, Thanks Molly. 299 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: John Seabrook is a contributor to the New Yorker and 300 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: the author of The Spinach King, The Rise and Fall 301 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: of an American Dynasty. Welcome to Fast Politics. 302 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 3: John Seabrook, thank you Molly for having me on your show. 303 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: We both have memoirs that are about to come out 304 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: and ergo, we must talk to each other. 305 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 2: It is the law. 306 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: And also we must talk about your book, which comes out. 307 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: We have the exact same pub date. This it's kismett. 308 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: You write for The New Yorker. I write for Baddy Fair. 309 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 3: It's all the Conday thing. 310 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 1: Yes, we both worked for the Conde Nast Empire. The 311 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 1: book is called The Spinach King. It's funny because when 312 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: we were talking about it, I said, what's your book called? 313 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 1: And you said The Spanish King? And I thought, oh, 314 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 1: it doesn't make any sense. The Spinach King, the Rise 315 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,719 Speaker 1: and Fall of an American Dynasty. It's funny because it's 316 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: like my family writers, but also a lot of like 317 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: herring merchants and people who didn't accumulate any wealth. Explain 318 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: to us sort of your family story and how you 319 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: got here. 320 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 3: So yeah, the book is about my family who emigrated 321 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 3: to America in eighteen fifty nine. My great great grandfather 322 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 3: was that man. He was just a working class English guy. 323 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 3: The Industrial Revolution kind of forced out. He arrived in 324 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 3: New York in eighteen fifty nine with his two children 325 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 3: and his wife, and he ended up down in the 326 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 3: very southern part of New Jersey on a small farm. 327 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 3: He didn't live that much longer, but his son, whose 328 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 3: name is Arthur, with my great grandfather. He was apprenticed 329 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 3: to a local farmer and learned the kind of high 330 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 3: end vegetable growing business, which there used to be a 331 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 3: lot of farms around New York that grew vegetables. People 332 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 3: needed them. As the city developed, they got pushed further out, 333 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 3: and by that time they were sort of you know, 334 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 3: out in Connecticut or New Jersey, but they supplied the 335 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 3: cities with you know, high end produce, kind of a 336 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 3: farm to table operation. Really, he had a small farm, 337 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 3: and my grandfather was born on that farm in eighteen 338 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 3: eighty one, and so he kind of came of age 339 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 3: in the Gilded Age, and his heroes were robber barons, 340 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 3: you know, who did everything they could to make money 341 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 3: and disregarded the law at almost every turn they could 342 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 3: get away with. And he formed his idea of who 343 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 3: he wanted to be during that era and from those men. 344 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 3: And even though he was just a picky, you little 345 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 3: farmer down in South Jersey. You know, he had these 346 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 3: big ambitions and what he was going to do was 347 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 3: industrialize the vegetable growing and packaging business, you know, because 348 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 3: that was what he started with. Henry Ford was kind 349 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 3: of his role model. So he wanted to create a 350 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 3: factory that would produce vegetables on a very large scale, 351 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 3: and he managed to do that and eventually created a 352 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 3: frozen vegetable factory called Sebra Farms, which some of your 353 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 3: listeners actually may know. It was quite a popular brand 354 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 3: in the fifties and you can still find the frozen 355 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 3: Queen spinach in some places, even though my family doesn't 356 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 3: make anymore. So he became this kind of late Robber 357 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 3: Baron style industrialist, and because it was an agricultural business, 358 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 3: it required thousands of workers, and over the twentieth century, 359 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 3: those workers were harder and harder to find because it 360 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 3: was farm work, so he had to look further and 361 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 3: further afield. So waves and waves of immigrants came down 362 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 3: to South Jersey and lived in a town that he built. 363 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 3: It was like a pullman town. It was actually called Seabrook, 364 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 3: and he owned all the housing. 365 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: So like Elon Musk. 366 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 3: If you wanted to make America great again and say 367 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 3: this is the America that we're thinking of, you couldn't 368 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 3: do better than look at Seabrook Farms as a model 369 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 3: for what that looks like. 370 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 2: It was. 371 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 3: It was run entirely by white Protestant men. Women had 372 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 3: no role in upper management, people of color were not 373 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 3: treated the same way as white people. There was corruption throughout, 374 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 3: and yet it was all sort of represented as this 375 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 3: kind of bootstrapping American dream, rags to riches kind of 376 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 3: story that became a big part of the brand, and 377 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 3: the brand story really became kind of who we all were. 378 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 3: You know, I was born in nineteen fifty nine, so 379 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 3: the business was kind of declining by that point. But 380 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 3: the brand and the story of how the Seabrooks became 381 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 3: who they were was all sort of manipulated for commercial reasons. 382 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 3: And I think if the family, if I said, one 383 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 3: reason why it all fell apart is that the family 384 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 3: and the brand became so confused that people didn't know 385 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 3: what whether their value was as a family member or 386 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 3: as kind of like a brand member. And it led 387 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 3: to enormous conflict between my father and his father and 388 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 3: Eventually it was a succession battle that brought the company 389 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 3: down and my father was disowned and we moved away 390 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 3: to another place. So it's the story of all of that. 391 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 3: And I would say, my just to one the thing 392 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,880 Speaker 3: that I mean, many families maybe have a narrative somewhat 393 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 3: like that. But it's interesting in this case because my 394 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 3: father and my grandfather were born forty years apart. My 395 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 3: grandfather was sort of, you know, born in the age 396 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 3: of the Robber Bearents. My father came of age in 397 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 3: the New Deal era, and so his attitude toward workers' 398 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 3: rights and unionization and women in the workplace were formed 399 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,959 Speaker 3: during the sort of birth of the liberal tradition that 400 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 3: we kind of grew up with, whereas my grandfather came 401 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 3: out of this kind of make America Great McKinley tradition. 402 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 3: So in their conflict, you see a conflict that our 403 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 3: country has faced and continues to face, between a kind 404 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 3: of liberal tradition and an illiberal tradition, if you want 405 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 3: to call it, that represented by my father and my grandfather. 406 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, so interesting. 407 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: So there's a generational divide here. 408 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 3: There's a generational divide that's that also kind of frames 409 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 3: a national divide in how we think of our country, 410 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 3: how we go about creating corporations, and what we think 411 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 3: of capitalism and how free a hand capitalists should have. 412 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 3: And you know, I think the tech burrows of today 413 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 3: were very much like a hand like my grandfather had 414 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 3: in you know, nineteen twenty to do what he wanted. 415 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 3: And maybe they're going. 416 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 2: To get it. 417 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 3: But you know, it's interesting to see how that played 418 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 3: out and how corruption and lies and secrets and tests 419 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 3: of loyalty until no one could really be loyal enough 420 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 3: to my grandfather. How all that played out, and think 421 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 3: about how other autocracies, authoritarian regimes have played out and 422 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 3: find the common ground there. That's one way to read it, 423 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 3: you know, as a kind of a parable of an 424 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 3: autocracy and what brings them down. 425 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: When you're in this sort of famelial struggle when it 426 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: comes to familial wealth, is there a lot of bad 427 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: blood still in the family? And also where does this 428 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: book fall in that. 429 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 3: When I started researching the book, I mean, so I 430 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 3: grew up with you know, the brand story basically, and 431 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 3: my image of my grandfather was a positive one, and 432 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 3: it really wasn't until I started researching the book that 433 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 3: I discovered all this sort of horrifying stuff that my 434 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 3: family had done to preserve their power, particularly during the 435 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 3: thirties when there was a massive strike at Seabrook Farms 436 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 3: that led by African American workers, which was extraordinarily courageous 437 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 3: at the time, and it was crushed with violence vigilantes. 438 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 3: Even the KKK, the New Jersey KKK, which was actually 439 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 3: kind of prevalent in those days, were brought in to 440 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 3: put down this strike. You know, my image of my 441 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 3: family changed as I, you know, discovered more and more 442 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 3: of this stuff. And by the way, I I wouldn't 443 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 3: have probably known this stuff, except that all these regional 444 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 3: newspapers that used to exist that no longer exists ended 445 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 3: up getting digitized and put on newspapers dot Com so 446 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 3: you could search them, so I could find these kind 447 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 3: of daily stories of what happened, and you know, on 448 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 3: a particular day in nineteen thirty four that I never 449 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 3: would have known anyway. So then I had all this 450 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 3: information and it was like, Okay, I'm writing kind of 451 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 3: an expost say of my family. Now I'm investigating my family. 452 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 3: I'm taking my journalistic skills which I learned, you know, 453 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 3: apart from my family working for The New Yorker, and 454 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 3: now I'm actually bringing them to bear my family, and 455 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 3: that actually was a very difficult thing to deal with. 456 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 3: I mean, I think one of the unique things maybe 457 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 3: about this book is you don't really read like insider 458 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 3: expos days of wealthy families written by one of the 459 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 3: family members who are willing to tell the truth and 460 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 3: who have decided to tell the truth and are willing 461 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 3: to risk alienating family members because the truth is more important. 462 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 3: And in this case, because all these workers whose stories 463 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 3: weren't really being told truly, who had contributed their lives 464 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 3: to Seabrooke Farms and were treated badly by my grandfather 465 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 3: and my uncles and maybe my father too, I felt 466 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 3: I was kind of doing it for them, partly too, 467 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 3: to sort of you know, there's a a social justice 468 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 3: piece of this because of the nature of my family's 469 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 3: agricultural work and the things they had done. So I 470 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 3: did have a decision to make, you know, should I 471 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 3: should I tell? Should I if this really is going 472 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 3: to damage my family? Should I do this? I don't know. 473 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 3: In the end, maybe I didn't really have a choice. 474 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,640 Speaker 3: I had to do it, you know, I had to do. 475 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 2: It right because the truth is what matters. Right. 476 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,719 Speaker 1: I mean, that's you know, speaking to someone who in 477 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 1: this book writes about my own family. I mean, doesn't 478 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 1: it feel like there's just no other choices, Like why 479 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: even bother going on if we're not going to tell 480 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: the truth. 481 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 3: And I think it helps us understand our families better. 482 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 3: And in your case, your mother and your relationship with 483 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 3: your mother. In my case, it was my father, although 484 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,959 Speaker 3: my mother is also in the book, But I had 485 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 3: a difficult relationship with my father. And part of the 486 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 3: reason I realized that was so was because he had 487 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 3: a very difficult relationship with his father that I didn't 488 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 3: really know the details of until I started researching this book. 489 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 3: And then when I discovered all this shit that he 490 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 3: had to deal with and what he put up with 491 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 3: from his father and who'd really tried to destroy him, 492 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 3: I felt like, oh, now I get it. This is 493 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 3: why you had such difficulty as a father because you 494 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 3: didn't have a role model for a father, and under 495 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 3: in that context, you actually did really well. This was 496 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 3: after he was gone, so it was it was, you know, 497 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 3: sort of all reconcili after he was dead, But it 498 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 3: actually meant a lot to me to come to that 499 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 3: place through that work. 500 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that the big question is why it 501 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: is sort of why write about your family and why 502 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: and sort of what the lessons are there in the end, 503 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: you know, we cannot be held responsible for the crimes 504 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: of our parents, but we certainly can learn from them. 505 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 3: The thing about this story is that there were thousands 506 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 3: and thousands of immigrants whose life stories are immeshed with 507 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 3: my story, with my family story, beginning with early twentieth 508 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 3: century with Italian immigrants. And during the Second World War, 509 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 3: two thousand Japanese internees came from the concentration camps to 510 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 3: Seabrook farms and reinvented their lives there and many of 511 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 3: them remained. And then after the war, hundreds of Estonian 512 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 3: displaced persons came from the DP camps in Eastern Europe 513 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 3: and they were sponsored my by grandfather, who who you know, 514 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 3: was always looking for labor that he could control. But 515 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 3: they see my grandfather as their savior, right wows as 516 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 3: the person who like the American that reaffirmed their belief 517 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,239 Speaker 3: in America, particularly for the Japanese Americans after you know, 518 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 3: the people that they thought were their protectors had actually 519 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 3: rounded them up and thrown them into these camps. But 520 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 3: of course with my grandfather, it was like an ideal 521 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 3: employment situation. I think he got these people they had 522 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 3: to stay, and there was no place for them to 523 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 3: go anyway, And then they lived in houses that he 524 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 3: rented to them. He was getting tenants who could easily 525 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 3: be evicted if they didn't work or they didn't pay 526 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 3: their rent or and their rents were taken out of 527 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 3: their salaries. So and the housing was completely segregated by color. 528 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 3: It was a bizarre situation that still resonates today and 529 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 3: in those families and their children. You know, I'm going 530 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 3: to present the book down there at the big reunion 531 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 3: of the Japanese Americans who their descendants who came this summer. 532 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 3: You know, I'm not really sure how it's going to 533 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 3: go down because it's it's really challenging a lot of 534 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 3: assumptions they made about my family as this kind of 535 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 3: the good Americans. So it's not just me, you know, 536 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 3: it's their stories too that intersect with my story. But 537 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 3: I feel like the narrative has to be corrected. We 538 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 3: can't live with the because the people who control the 539 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,479 Speaker 3: past control the present, right, And if we know this 540 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 3: from our current day, and if the people, if the 541 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 3: past is portrayed as this kind of wonderful, utopian, nostalgic, 542 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 3: you know, crime free, stress free, you know, gender not 543 00:31:54,160 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 3: free world, then that is going to be the world 544 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 3: that politicians try to create for us today. But it's 545 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 3: a lie. And in my case, certainly in our case, 546 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 3: it's a lie. And I think in the MAGA case 547 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 3: it's also a lie, but I know that it's a 548 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 3: lie in my case. 549 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: What is so meaningful about this story is that we 550 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: can see how important it is to the MAGA to control, 551 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: to try and control them, right, Like they're banning books. 552 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: Our literacy rate is what, like before than thirty percent 553 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: of Americans can't read at a fourth grade level. So 554 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: these are people can't even read these books, but they're 555 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: banning them. And there's a reason for that, and that's 556 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: because they know that history is i mean, the whole 557 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: endless discourse on the books about American history. That is 558 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: because they know this is such a central data. 559 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 3: Absolutely, you know, and when he talks about like making 560 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 3: America great again, like what is this place where it 561 00:32:59,280 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 3: was great? 562 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 2: Always? 563 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 3: Very sort of fuzzy and vague, and because it's fuzzy 564 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 3: and vague, you think, oh, well, maybe that was kind 565 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 3: of nice. But when you see an actual example of that, 566 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 3: which is what Seabrook Farms was, and you know how 567 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 3: it began, how it was sustained, and how it ended, 568 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 3: it's very educational. This is one possible outcome of where 569 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 3: we're going. If we don't change directions, and it ends 570 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 3: very badly. It ends very badly. If they don't ban 571 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 3: this book, maybe somebody will. We'll get that out of it. 572 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, so important and interesting in the question of whether 573 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: or not you can ever kind of go back to 574 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: your family's history and what that looks like. Thank you, 575 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: Thank you, John. 576 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 3: I haven't read your book yet, Molly, but I'm super 577 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 3: excited to read your book. 578 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 579 00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and to hear the best minds 580 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: and politics make sense of all this chaos. If you 581 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 1: enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend and 582 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.