Speaker 1: On the beck dol Cast, the questions asked if movies
Speaker 1: have women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends
Speaker 1: and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Ze
Speaker 1: invest start changing it with the Beckdel Cast. Hello, thank
Speaker 1: you for coming. Athang Hi, Hi, what's a good one?
Speaker 1: I am Caitlin Torante. I am one of the hosts
Speaker 1: of the Beckdel Cast. I'm Jamie Lopsis. I'm the other one.
Speaker 1: By a round of applause, who has listened to the
Speaker 1: show before? Oh cool, you're right. That's so funny because
Speaker 1: do you remember the first time we did a live
Speaker 1: shows maybe a year and a half ago now, and
Speaker 1: we're like, hey, is anyone putting her through the show before?
Speaker 1: And someone was like, what did not know where they
Speaker 1: were or what they were doing? Does that apply to
Speaker 1: anyone here? Has anyone not heard the show before? Don't
Speaker 1: be shy? Okay, we got we got what We thank
Speaker 1: you so much, so you just get Your friends were like,
Speaker 1: come on, great, well welcome, sorry for what's about to happen?
Speaker 1: Oh man, well we should uh for you, We'll tell
Speaker 1: you what the show is about. So this is our
Speaker 1: podcast about the role of women in movies. Um, so
Speaker 1: we analyze it through the lens of the Bechdel test,
Speaker 1: which is what well, Jamie. The Bectel test is a
Speaker 1: test that you apply to media, usually movies. It requires
Speaker 1: that a movie has two named, female identifying characters I
Speaker 1: know grows. They have to speak to each other, and
Speaker 1: their conversation cannot be about a man. Can we demo it?
Speaker 1: Let's demo it? If the lives how can we them
Speaker 1: on it? And stand? I want to do that? Everyone
Speaker 1: needs to see my costume? Yes, um, hey, Caitlin, Hey Jamie,
Speaker 1: do you stretch a lot? I? Actually no, I don't
Speaker 1: stretch enough. I would say, would you like to stretch
Speaker 1: with me? Um? Do I have a choice? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: would love to stress. Still typically have a choice? Does
Speaker 1: can pass? All right? So that's kind of how great
Speaker 1: there's That's one of our more problematic passes. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: pose another question to the audience, which probably won't pass,
Speaker 1: depending on who answers. But another fun thing happens during
Speaker 1: our live shows sometimes where people have come and haven't
Speaker 1: seen the movie we're discussing. Has anyone here not seen
Speaker 1: Edward scissor hands? Wow? Okay, we got to too great?
Speaker 1: They just raised their scissors into their I think that
Speaker 1: was funny. I always forgot I was gonna bring Okay,
Speaker 1: because Caitlin is cosplaying, is Edward is going to bring
Speaker 1: a handful of tacks and be like, I'm Jamie handful attacks.
Speaker 1: I don't think that would have translated very well on stage,
Speaker 1: you know what. I think you're wrong, but I do
Speaker 1: think that it wouldn't have been fun for an hour.
Speaker 1: So here we are talking about the portrayal of women
Speaker 1: in a specific movie. But before we get into that,
Speaker 1: we're going to introduce our guests. She's a gem. She's
Speaker 1: such a gem. She's absolutely wonderful. She's a talented writer,
Speaker 1: she's a talented actor. She has an incredible series of
Speaker 1: video essays, one of which is on this exact movie.
Speaker 1: Please everyone give a warm welcome to Maggie may Fish.
Speaker 1: That was great. You nailed it. Okay, you nailed it. Now, Maggie,
Speaker 1: you are cosplaying as the houses in the movie. Yeah, yeah, houses,
Speaker 1: and then the very bottom is the sexy housewife. Wow. Okay,
Speaker 1: so it's kind of a two for two. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: I was almost gonna dress up as the bully who
Speaker 1: gets stabbed by the hands, but I had no idea
Speaker 1: that that was Anthony Michael Hall. That his name, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: like like jacked Anthony Michael You're like, why is he
Speaker 1: so puffy? I can never that name of that actor
Speaker 1: in his face. I can never, And to this day,
Speaker 1: like you say Anthony Michael Hall, and I'm picturing like
Speaker 1: Rick moranis because I can't place his name with his face.
Speaker 1: He's like the nerd in all of the eighties John
Speaker 1: Hughes movies, and he does. He's the one who in
Speaker 1: is it Sixteen Candles where he has a passed out girl,
Speaker 1: like thrown over and everyone's like whoo, and we're like,
Speaker 1: what is happening. We're like, oh, that's rape. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: also he has one of my least favorite qualities in
Speaker 1: a man, would just flesh colored hair. Yeah, blonde adult
Speaker 1: man is scary. All right, So let's talk about Maggie.
Speaker 1: What is your history your relationship with Edward scissor Hands
Speaker 1: the film and never dated? Uh? Yeah, I actually hadn't
Speaker 1: seen it until I was doing research for the Tim
Speaker 1: Burton video. I've seen a lot of other Tim Burton films, men,
Speaker 1: this one I just kind of skid past. I think
Speaker 1: because I got I get I got it. Like I
Speaker 1: saw the cover of the video and I was like,
Speaker 1: I know this whole story. I know what happens, and
Speaker 1: so when I was watching it for research, I was right,
Speaker 1: I got it and I knew what happened. So this
Speaker 1: is like my third time seeing it, I think, getting
Speaker 1: ready for this. Yeah, all right, Jamie, what about you?
Speaker 1: This was one of my movies. This is my I know,
Speaker 1: this is I was this is okay. I would say
Speaker 1: that this qualifies as a very not like the Other
Speaker 1: Girls kind of movie, you know, like when you're thirteen
Speaker 1: and you're just like, actually, I'm a little different. I
Speaker 1: didn't watch High School Musical. I'm home like flicking it
Speaker 1: to Mr Mr Sharps, like fully psychotic, purchasing the mergent
Speaker 1: hot topic, waiting for like my back bace to come off.
Speaker 1: That was like the vibe mine was like Danny Phantom,
Speaker 1: I think that was my Like, I would say, same category,
Speaker 1: the same category. Yeah, dark ghosts man, I think I
Speaker 1: just love the idea of a man who appears dead. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're like, okay, I'm not gonna talk for a long time.
Speaker 1: Come to mamma. He's a little bit shy, but he's
Speaker 1: also a little bit. He could kill you in a second.
Speaker 1: Like there's what a fun what a fun dichotomy? No,
Speaker 1: I had, I mean I had a and my mom.
Speaker 1: This was one of the movies. My mom was like
Speaker 1: frothing for like she like the second I turned thirteen
Speaker 1: for some for some reason, but she was just like,
Speaker 1: we have to watch it together, and like she like
Speaker 1: the whole time, She's like, look at him, is any handsome?
Speaker 1: Look look at his pointy hand that happens in the movie.
Speaker 1: Like you have to suspend your disbelief a lot to
Speaker 1: appreciate the events of this story. But the thing you
Speaker 1: have to suspend your disbelief for the most is the
Speaker 1: fact that so many like horny housewives, are so turned
Speaker 1: on by sharp by murder, sharp weapons. It's just a
Speaker 1: kinky community. Maybe I I don't want to kink shame
Speaker 1: anyone who's into weapons as a kink, but I did
Speaker 1: find that interesting at least. What is your history with this?
Speaker 1: I don't think I had quite the same relationship as you, Jamie,
Speaker 1: but very rare relationship. I don't think that you weren't
Speaker 1: blinking it. I think I probably thought maybe once or
Speaker 1: twice as a kid enjoyed it more as a teen,
Speaker 1: and then in college when I was like, I'm studying film,
Speaker 1: tim Burton is what an odd tour? Right? So I
Speaker 1: appreciated his films more about a decade ago, and didn't
Speaker 1: we all? Yeah? I didn't we all? And then do
Speaker 1: you remember how the one day where Tim Burton was like,
Speaker 1: I think movies should be all white people, And we
Speaker 1: all woke up all at once and we're like, wait,
Speaker 1: does this guy suck? Like? And then we all went
Speaker 1: back and watched and stuff. We're like, wait, this guy
Speaker 1: Sun It's terrible. Yikes. Yeah, I really blew it. He really,
Speaker 1: but he'd been blowing it for his whole career so
Speaker 1: long that we all just you know, took it in stride.
Speaker 1: The narrative of the mediocre man oh man. Twenty five
Speaker 1: years on, he's like, jokes on you. Yeah, he's directing
Speaker 1: the next five d Alls in Wonderlands and has five
Speaker 1: billion dollars. So I'm tired. Well shall I do Caitlin's
Speaker 1: famous recap Well response starting up in response started to
Speaker 1: got to a seven. Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you so much. Okay,
Speaker 1: So the story of Edwards Scissor Hands, Well, first, I
Speaker 1: want to say, how today my notes page count, which
Speaker 1: is color coded for anyone who is curious, is we're
Speaker 1: only at five today. It's gone up to eight, so
Speaker 1: no one cares. There's a there's a table. There's a table. Okay,
Speaker 1: there's charts, there's a map, is a pigraph an oil painting. Damn,
Speaker 1: that's wild. Holy sh it. First, I just want to
Speaker 1: say a movie about a young, naive, soft spoken non
Speaker 1: human who gets adopted into a nuclear family. He struggles
Speaker 1: to fit in and some of the neighbors don't like him.
Speaker 1: What is this Paddington? Okay, thank you, thank you for
Speaker 1: indulging me. Alright, So the story of ed Her Hands.
Speaker 1: There's a framing device. At the very beginning we eat,
Speaker 1: we meet an older woman who tells granddaughter where snow
Speaker 1: comes from. I'm interrupting, Um, did we have to make
Speaker 1: one not to rider the old lady? Does she have
Speaker 1: to be an old makeup every time? I'm like, why
Speaker 1: was that choice? Just so we could see how ugly
Speaker 1: she gets when she gets older? To set up at
Speaker 1: the end where she is where they're like, why don't
Speaker 1: you go see Mr? Sharp? And she's like, because I
Speaker 1: look like ship and also I guess I'm interrupting the interrupter,
Speaker 1: But it is wild to have a framing device of
Speaker 1: like a you know, like a grandma talking to her daughter,
Speaker 1: and then the movie is not at all about her.
Speaker 1: She's telling a story, just this one man story. I
Speaker 1: think that they're like, hey, for the Princess Bride, did this,
Speaker 1: let's try it? Yeah? Oh yeah, that thing do that.
Speaker 1: Mr Tim was like, yeah, let's give it a shot,
Speaker 1: all right. So this older man starts to tell the
Speaker 1: story of what ends up being her family. Peg is
Speaker 1: her mom. She's a very sweet avon lady in a
Speaker 1: suburban community. One morning, she is trying to sell her
Speaker 1: Avon's and she's having a hard time, and she's like, wait,
Speaker 1: I think everyone's struggling with Avon's. They're stuck in we
Speaker 1: can't move past this perfectly clear, Yeah, read a book
Speaker 1: singular avon plural Avon's, right, Okay. She's trying to tell
Speaker 1: her cosmetics and she's having a hard time. So she's like, hey,
Speaker 1: how about this haunted castle on the hill. They're gonna
Speaker 1: want my Avon's. And so she goes up there and
Speaker 1: she discovers Edward, who is sharp, a sharp dress man,
Speaker 1: he's leather. He's in leather. He's in all leather. He's
Speaker 1: a never nude. Oh my god, he's full of never nude.
Speaker 1: He puts on clothes over his leather clothes. He may
Speaker 1: not have a body. They don't really say, because he's
Speaker 1: not human. They're not might not. Is he just like
Speaker 1: soup in there is? They're just oh, he's just more scissors. Oh,
Speaker 1: he's so shy. And throughout the movie we learn about
Speaker 1: his sort of origin story, which is that an inventor
Speaker 1: played by Vincent Price creates him basically but doesn't finish
Speaker 1: him because the step that you have to get before
Speaker 1: you get to the finished man a scissor that I
Speaker 1: didn't realize that until this viewing. It's seen as like
Speaker 1: wait a second, Like this scene where there's like these
Speaker 1: flashbags and the inventor presents him with hands, and I
Speaker 1: was like, why does he have three hundred pairs of
Speaker 1: shears in for hands? And then he immediately skewers the
Speaker 1: new hands as his creator dies. But he it's weird.
Speaker 1: Is he a bad inventor? Like, yeah, it's a shitty inventor. Well,
Speaker 1: he's playing god, that's for sure. It doesn't seem to
Speaker 1: care very much about what do we see that he's invented,
Speaker 1: because from what I could tell, it was a way
Speaker 1: to make cookies and reiss hands. Yeah yeah, and something's chopping,
Speaker 1: uh salary in the background for like a second. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like there's something it's attached to your man. It's
Speaker 1: it's a scissor, it's it's a blade. What a fucking idiot.
Speaker 1: And all right, So we learned about Edward's history and
Speaker 1: he hasn't been socialized, like he's only ever lived in
Speaker 1: this castle. He's Tim Burton. He's Tim Burton. He's Tim Burton.
Speaker 1: It's like I love and directors they were like, okay,
Speaker 1: this person is like me, but like really hot. Okay,
Speaker 1: um lots. Me's basically me. That's my Impressionive's great. So
Speaker 1: Peg is like, I'll just I'll take you home. You'll
Speaker 1: come and live with us in the community. So she
Speaker 1: brings him into her home where she lives with her husband, Bill,
Speaker 1: who I also as a teen did not realize was
Speaker 1: Alan Arkins. So that's exciting. So she's got her husband
Speaker 1: Bill and her two kids, Kevin and Kim. And then
Speaker 1: when Edwards sees a picture of Kim, which is one
Speaker 1: on a writer's character. He's like he gets turned on
Speaker 1: all of his scissors, all his scissors inside his leather
Speaker 1: suits start to shift around. Well, he had he must
Speaker 1: have a circulatory system because he's always nicking his face bleed.
Speaker 1: You're being too nice. I don't think is there. I
Speaker 1: don't know. Look, I'm not a woman in stem but
Speaker 1: I do think he's got regular insights. But I don't know.
Speaker 1: We can discuss it. Did you see that inventor? You're
Speaker 1: probably full of like Celery, He's just a garbage disposal. Okay,
Speaker 1: So then yeah, Edwards all like, oh my god, I
Speaker 1: love Kim. She's cute. And then whenever Kim meets Edwards,
Speaker 1: she's not too sure about him at first Fair he's scary.
Speaker 1: She has a boyfriend named Jim, who is a jerk. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but she's an I mean, she's like in an extremely
Speaker 1: toxic relationship. And you know that from like moment one
Speaker 1: moment one. Yeah, it's I feel like he's like because
Speaker 1: this movie came out and I feel it's like a
Speaker 1: leftover of like the eighties kind of bully trope where
Speaker 1: it's bullying to the point where it doesn't even make sense,
Speaker 1: and it's grounded and nothing. He gets a gun, not
Speaker 1: to jump ahead, but he gets gun where he like hot.
Speaker 1: He screams at his friend to drive drunk for no reason.
Speaker 1: He's like like, like what it feels like? And again
Speaker 1: this is I guess jumping head. But it seems like
Speaker 1: the only way to justify, like Tim Burton's like, I
Speaker 1: hate bullies is to have the bully have a gun,
Speaker 1: like shooting at the weirdo so that the bird can
Speaker 1: kill the bully. Oh, I've got a hole. I've got
Speaker 1: a whole little snip to snip with them. Anyways, Kim
Speaker 1: has a piece of ship boyfriend, right yeah, and now
Speaker 1: pretty soon all the desperate housewives of the neighborhood of
Speaker 1: are This movie is Paddington plus Desperate Housewives with also
Speaker 1: a little bit of beauty and the beast. Um. I
Speaker 1: think that sounds like a way better movie than the
Speaker 1: one that. So the women of the neighborhood are like,
Speaker 1: who's this new guy? And they're very excited about him
Speaker 1: because he's like disrupting the monoton He's a disuburban life.
Speaker 1: He's like, uber, we can go anywhere now, Karen. So
Speaker 1: then he's like trimming their hedges. He's cutting the dogs furs,
Speaker 1: he's cutting women and the water. He's poking and snipping
Speaker 1: at everything. You name a fun neighborhood item, he snips it.
Speaker 1: But then things start to take a turn whenever Jim,
Speaker 1: the shitty boyfriend convinces Edward to rob his own house,
Speaker 1: Jim's own house, and then he Edward is the only
Speaker 1: one who gets caught. So everyone's like, oh, this Edward guy,
Speaker 1: he's he's a bad guy. Actually we were wrong about him.
Speaker 1: And then they turn into the mob from Beauty and
Speaker 1: the Beast and seconds and then everyone forgets he's hot.
Speaker 1: Forget he's hot, but I went through the movie we
Speaker 1: were trying to fund Mr Sharp yesterday, like what far.
Speaker 1: But Kim doesn't forget because now she's starting to fall
Speaker 1: in love with him, so she basically, I guess he's
Speaker 1: sharp and around he's somehow less threatening with his knife
Speaker 1: hands than her shitty boyfriend, so she's like, I choose you.
Speaker 1: And then the angry mob like cast him back up
Speaker 1: into the castle, and then Kim goes and like protects
Speaker 1: him basically by saying, oh, he died. Because there is
Speaker 1: a gunfight and the police are like, cool, we're not
Speaker 1: going to check ye peace. Cool. But now so Edward
Speaker 1: is back into seclusion. What did you say? He kills Anthony,
Speaker 1: he kills the shitty boyfriend and then immediately kisses Kim,
Speaker 1: and Kim was like, wow, that was awesome. I didn't
Speaker 1: just see a man. Thought it was death. Oh God.
Speaker 1: And now it snows because he's all by himself and
Speaker 1: he's making ice sculptures. So sure. And then and then
Speaker 1: at the ending of like, why don't you see your grandma? Well,
Speaker 1: I look bad for you all. It's like an actual
Speaker 1: old woman wouldn't have looked bad. You just happened to
Speaker 1: be twenty year old when on a rider in a
Speaker 1: rubber suit, so you do look bad. Just take off
Speaker 1: the suit. I imagine shuffle up the hill when we're
Speaker 1: on A writer like actually gets to that age, and
Speaker 1: then you're going to be able to compare the two
Speaker 1: of like the makeup they put on her versus actual
Speaker 1: old a writer. Why not forever? It's going to be
Speaker 1: hot forever. She's yeah, yeah, she's never going to get
Speaker 1: to that. I feel like they put her in old
Speaker 1: makeup in one of the Star Trek movies. To anyone know,
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, she's probably a hot second, she's what's the
Speaker 1: faces Mama's bock? Is this a kink that people have?
Speaker 1: I want to see the writer, but it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: like in her forties, no video. So that's the story
Speaker 1: of Edward scissor Hands. Yeah, let's take a quick break
Speaker 1: and we will be right back. Let's jump into the discussion,
Speaker 1: Wow Saturday Night discourse. Let's start with the fact that
Speaker 1: there are a lot of female characters in this movie,
Speaker 1: more than I remember. I sort of was just remembering
Speaker 1: Pegan Kim and I. I hadn't seen this movie in
Speaker 1: a couple of years, and I sort of forgot the
Speaker 1: horny housewife subplot, and so there there were more women
Speaker 1: than I remembered in this movie. Yeah. I found it
Speaker 1: hard to remember the women only because most the characters
Speaker 1: in this film are like stereotypes, very trophy, very trophy,
Speaker 1: very like, which makes sense because it's like a fairytale.
Speaker 1: She's retelling it, so it's more like, you know, memory
Speaker 1: and distance. But everyone is a stereotype. So it's like
Speaker 1: including Kim in like the you know, because when you
Speaker 1: see that beginning shot of her, it's like she's a cheerleader,
Speaker 1: she's you know, and she's like with the jock who
Speaker 1: is drunk. And the last outfit she wears is actually
Speaker 1: this I only noticed it the last time, but it's uh,
Speaker 1: it's an angel outfit. It like flares out, so her
Speaker 1: silhouette is of an angel as Edward scissor Hands is
Speaker 1: making the statute of I would love to see, okay,
Speaker 1: that that famous shot where Everard scissor Hands is doing
Speaker 1: his sharp thing and uh when on a rider wanders
Speaker 1: out and she's like no, no, no, and then it's
Speaker 1: snowing on her and do we know the shot? Okay,
Speaker 1: I would love to see that shot from like, I
Speaker 1: want to see a wide shot of because I think
Speaker 1: it would look fully psychic, like across the street they're like,
Speaker 1: what is it over there? I'm sure it feels meaningful
Speaker 1: to them, looking kind of weird from over here. And
Speaker 1: then also during that scene, are we to believe that
Speaker 1: Alan Arkin is on the roof dude in the Christmas
Speaker 1: lights and then it's like there's a meaningful twirl happening
Speaker 1: on his own lawn. Maybe it be hot or if
Speaker 1: that was an old Manona writer dancing out in the street.
Speaker 1: She'll never go she's too insecure. She does say at
Speaker 1: the end of the movie that you can still catch
Speaker 1: her dancing sometimes in the snow. But it's like if
Speaker 1: you throw an ice cube off a mountain, it doesn't
Speaker 1: get to the village, Like that's that's my weather. Burbank,
Speaker 1: which is yeah, Timburn based like this town off of
Speaker 1: the way. He felt like growing up in Burbank. Frank
Speaker 1: What what an awesome guy? Oh yeah. So there are
Speaker 1: quite a few female characters. Many of them are very trophy,
Speaker 1: you know, because you've got like the housewives, the religious
Speaker 1: zealot lady. But the female characters are by and large
Speaker 1: way more active than any of the male characters, including Edward,
Speaker 1: who is supposed to be the protect of the movie.
Speaker 1: Things are happening to Edward, Yeah, and you react the
Speaker 1: very the very first time we see him in like
Speaker 1: a suburban setting, he hits his head on a car window,
Speaker 1: like in the first minute in a car, it's cue,
Speaker 1: I guess what I watched? Like there's no word to
Speaker 1: go up from here, Like he doesn't know what windows are,
Speaker 1: what that's our main character or what that's what we
Speaker 1: speaking of cars? If the narrative is a car, he
Speaker 1: is not the driver. He is the passenger. That's a
Speaker 1: little thing I learned from the screenwriting, but I don't
Speaker 1: like to bring it up. Yeah, all the all the
Speaker 1: major choices in the movie are made by women, with
Speaker 1: maybe the exception of a few things that happened towards
Speaker 1: the end with the boyfriend character. That. Yeah, the the
Speaker 1: how the movie ends is weird, right, did we have
Speaker 1: to kill I am not upset that we kill Anthony
Speaker 1: Michael Hall, but it just doesn't seem like it's that
Speaker 1: seems like a very abrupt change of pace for Edward
Speaker 1: where he's so gentle the whole movie, and then well,
Speaker 1: I mean, Anthony Michael Hall does have a gun. I
Speaker 1: don't know. Again, it's almost like it's it is weird
Speaker 1: he has a gun. It's like he Tim Burton, the
Speaker 1: film is very like not much happens throughout most of
Speaker 1: it because of the way he writes it. And like
Speaker 1: the comedy that Tim Burton thinks is like funny, which
Speaker 1: is funny, is like this fish out of water and
Speaker 1: people don't really react to them. They kind of like
Speaker 1: accept to him. And like even when he gets called
Speaker 1: into the police, the next scene is the father just
Speaker 1: calmly explaining how we don't steal, like that's the biggest consequence. Uh,
Speaker 1: like the midpoint of the film. So then the last
Speaker 1: like third feels crazy. I like, I like the okay.
Speaker 1: Another moment that is very dissonant is when he and
Speaker 1: Kim are standing at the window and then you know,
Speaker 1: she's like hold me and he's like I can't. I
Speaker 1: love the way, and then so much he's scared. Anyways,
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that part. But then for some reason,
Speaker 1: his like spiky sense goes off and he's like, Kevin's
Speaker 1: about to get hit by a car. You're like what,
Speaker 1: And then he runs outside and Kevin's about to get
Speaker 1: hit by a car, and then he like saves Kevin
Speaker 1: and then goes it starts to like like I don't
Speaker 1: like Hibachi's Kevin's face so weird. I mean, well, first
Speaker 1: of all, Tim Burton has a story by credit for
Speaker 1: this movie, but the screenplay was written by a woman,
Speaker 1: Caroline Thompson, who also has a story by credit. So
Speaker 1: it stands to reason that there are, you know, so
Speaker 1: many female characters, and even though this is Edwards story,
Speaker 1: it's really the women driving it, making all the main
Speaker 1: decisions because between like Peg choosing to go to the
Speaker 1: castle and then choosing to introduce this person into the community,
Speaker 1: and then and that the way the story ends is like, hey,
Speaker 1: let's try to integrate this other person into the community.
Speaker 1: And it starts to work, and then the second it
Speaker 1: goes a little wrong, they're like, well, let's stop trying.
Speaker 1: Get this this weirdo back up into his house. The
Speaker 1: lesson is like, well, I guess if you don't feel accepted,
Speaker 1: you should just stay where you are forever. Homes move home.
Speaker 1: You know what movie does not have that assage? Paddington.
Speaker 1: And then like Kim is making a lot of active
Speaker 1: choices towards the end, like when she stands up for
Speaker 1: him and then protects him, helps him at the very end. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so then he still gets I guess what we're supposed
Speaker 1: to believe is like the hero moment of killing Anthony Michael, Right,
Speaker 1: he kills someone at the end, everyone is like time
Speaker 1: to kiss yea a seventeen year old. He kills a
Speaker 1: sevent legally a child? Yeah, yeah, childhood seems like you
Speaker 1: had some pretty serious issues to work. Yeah, got a
Speaker 1: flesh colored head to start, gets worse from there. I
Speaker 1: feel like though, even though a lot of the characters
Speaker 1: we see are very trophy like, very archetypal, I would
Speaker 1: argue that Peg and Kim are less so, and I
Speaker 1: appreciate their like relationship. I like that you see them
Speaker 1: generally getting a lot. You don't see what you like
Speaker 1: for a typical like cheerleader, popular girl, teen girl character.
Speaker 1: You know, she can't get along with anyone. She hates
Speaker 1: all other women, some big beef right, So it's nicely,
Speaker 1: I guess you see representation of a positive Yeah, Peg
Speaker 1: is my favorite character. I love Peg. So it's so
Speaker 1: hard to get a movie mom done well, Like I
Speaker 1: feel like moms are always you know, kind of getting
Speaker 1: you know, they're either not getting enough story or but
Speaker 1: the fact that the movie starts out with her in
Speaker 1: a series of choices like you're saying that she makes
Speaker 1: and her character is like more consistent than the protagonist
Speaker 1: for sure, where she's like she's all her instinct is
Speaker 1: to always take care of people. She's one of the
Speaker 1: only women we see who has a job like she's
Speaker 1: Pegs type. She is. She really cares like she's when
Speaker 1: I whenever I rewatched this, she's the only one that
Speaker 1: I really PEG's back. Yeah, I hope back. I hope
Speaker 1: Arkin is like generous to her, like lover w Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: Arkin goes down on Peg because she works hard and
Speaker 1: she's not she's good to everyone and so you know,
Speaker 1: pay you forward's Yeah. One thing I want to say
Speaker 1: about that character, Alan Arkin. Let me just read a
Speaker 1: monologue that he gives, if you'll allow me. He's talking
Speaker 1: to Edward. He's like, you've been in that castle too long.
Speaker 1: You don't know anything about the wonderful world of teenage girls.
Speaker 1: They're all crazy. I don't know what it is. They
Speaker 1: reach a certain age, they developed these gland things, their
Speaker 1: bodies swell up, they go crazy. I try not to
Speaker 1: think about it. It seems like a good dad. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: it seems like he's just there for her daughter in
Speaker 1: every hard turn. The only thing that I will defend
Speaker 1: that monologue is is it is supposed to be silly.
Speaker 1: That character is supposed to look And that scene ends
Speaker 1: with the dad giving Edward a Mike hard. He says
Speaker 1: it's not really, but he says it's lemonade. Whiskey's either way,
Speaker 1: it's hard. Mike's hard, lemonade blood orange flavors and He's like,
Speaker 1: I know, Deadpools on the camp, but try to try
Speaker 1: to grit your teeth through that and enjoy the Mike's hard.
Speaker 1: It's a good beverage. Don't hold Deadpool, you know whatever.
Speaker 1: Even in they were gritting their teeth through the Deadpool franchise.
Speaker 1: It's been going on. One thing I wanted to bring
Speaker 1: up was the scissor Hands as a disability. Basically, I
Speaker 1: just want to say that there is almost no visibility
Speaker 1: of people with disabilities in mainstream movies. Edwards scissor hands
Speaker 1: are presented as a disability of sorts. We see him
Speaker 1: struggling to do different tasks. We have different characters being like, hey,
Speaker 1: don't let anyone tell you you're handicapped, you know. They're like,
Speaker 1: I have a doctor friend, who can you know, help
Speaker 1: you out and fix this. While it's interesting and important
Speaker 1: to show and represent, you know, the types of obstacles
Speaker 1: and or microaggressions that people with disabilities might have to
Speaker 1: deal with, it's frustrating that one of the few movies
Speaker 1: that portrays a character with a disability does not have
Speaker 1: a real disability to give visibility to. And also like
Speaker 1: ends up with the person with the disability being excommunicated.
Speaker 1: But and then before that it's highly fetishized where so well,
Speaker 1: it's a tricky thing because I mean, I don't know
Speaker 1: what everyone's experienced with this movie is, but I feel
Speaker 1: like Edward Scissorhands is one of those characters that, like
Speaker 1: kids would an adults would plug themselves into because you
Speaker 1: can't like especially when you're like a kid that feels
Speaker 1: different like that's of course, it's a character that before
Speaker 1: you realize that you shouldn't kill Anthony Michael Hall, they
Speaker 1: here before we learn that lesson that you would connect to.
Speaker 1: And so the places where it misses, especially I don't
Speaker 1: know him being told to funk off forever, really bothered
Speaker 1: me because thinking of the context of how people view
Speaker 1: that character, the takeaway is like, then then you kill
Speaker 1: someone and then you can never have a friend. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and the girl you love will never talk to you again,
Speaker 1: she'll marry someone else, they'll have a kid, and then
Speaker 1: she'll talk about you behind your back for the rest
Speaker 1: of your life. Yeah. Yeah, here's onto the next fun topic.
Speaker 1: So this movie does a harmful thing where a woman
Speaker 1: I think Joyce is her name, comes on to Edward
Speaker 1: tries to seduce him, tries to kiss him, He's not
Speaker 1: having it. He runs away. Yeah, but then after the
Speaker 1: towns people start to turn on him after she retaliatestated
Speaker 1: by telling people that he tried to rape her. Right,
Speaker 1: I mean that spreads a number of bad messages, which
Speaker 1: one where you going to bring up first? The first
Speaker 1: thing is that it feeds into the idea that when
Speaker 1: women are victims of assault come forward, they're lying up,
Speaker 1: they made its chit chatting on their phones, and they're
Speaker 1: painting their nails, and that is I mean, that is
Speaker 1: like a dead giveaway of like, yeah, man Rode at
Speaker 1: least part of this, because yeah, like the fact that
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, a woman who is reporting a rape
Speaker 1: is a lying and be doing it because she felt
Speaker 1: somehow rejected or scorned yes by a man that she
Speaker 1: basically assaulted herself. So that I mean, and and that
Speaker 1: whole scene too with them where the consent is confused
Speaker 1: using in that scene, because there is one point where
Speaker 1: Edward is like, oh, but then he's scared, and also
Speaker 1: he doesn't know what windows are and it's like the
Speaker 1: baby not the baby, don't have sex with it. And
Speaker 1: during that scene there's like a comedic song in the background.
Speaker 1: It's like upbeat, like Doo Doo Doo do do Seinfeld
Speaker 1: theme song. Yes, yeah, but it is clearly played as
Speaker 1: isn't this funny that this like sexy housewife. There's like
Speaker 1: a so into Edward that she would do this, and
Speaker 1: no matter what way you view Edward, that just does
Speaker 1: not track at all, because there are like a number
Speaker 1: of things that are supposed to indicate to us that
Speaker 1: he is a literal baby, like he's a young child.
Speaker 1: We have we even see that like mirror moment that
Speaker 1: he has in Kim's room that is like the I
Speaker 1: don't know that I've only I've only been to college once,
Speaker 1: so I don't know what the name for it is,
Speaker 1: but it's there's a moment where were mirror stage, the
Speaker 1: mirror stage there you got, but he walks into you know,
Speaker 1: Kim's room and sees his reflection for the first time
Speaker 1: and knows what he looks like for the first time,
Speaker 1: which is something that babies do. Anyways, he's a baby,
Speaker 1: don't have sex with him. Pretty simple rule. Well, uh,
Speaker 1: we've talked about this really quickly before we started recording,
Speaker 1: but I think we both thought of the born sexy
Speaker 1: Yesterday trope, which we bring up there. Yeah who no, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I I'm not sure where I land on that, because,
Speaker 1: like we were talking about the born sexy Yesterday trope
Speaker 1: is uh conventioned typically found in sci fi movies, usually
Speaker 1: where it's like a hot woman, uh you know, is
Speaker 1: an alien and she's hot and she falls in love
Speaker 1: with the first man she meets who teaches her how
Speaker 1: the world works, and she's very naive. It's a very
Speaker 1: common trope. And so I first was thinking, oh, maybe
Speaker 1: Edwards sort of falls into this because although he hasn't
Speaker 1: never knude, he is a a by and you know,
Speaker 1: there are women showing him, mostly women showing him what
Speaker 1: the world around him is. Um, but I didn't. I
Speaker 1: don't know. It's not quite that. It's not quite that.
Speaker 1: What I think is a more appropriate, like kind of
Speaker 1: movie trend to apply to this movie is the and
Speaker 1: I don't have a name for it, but the people
Speaker 1: falling in love with non humans. Oh so this is
Speaker 1: there's a great Lindsayellois video about this. Yeah, why do
Speaker 1: we like monsters? I also wrote an essay about this
Speaker 1: two months ago. Oh my goodness, I didn't read it.
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. Well I'm calling you out. Oh my god, audience. So,
Speaker 1: when it happens when a woman falls in love with
Speaker 1: a non human, it's usually a beast, a creature, fish,
Speaker 1: a fish, uh, someone who's disfigured. Any lives at the
Speaker 1: basement of an opera house, the Baba Duke hot hot Hot,
Speaker 1: that was. Other examples are any beauty and the beast
Speaker 1: adaptation Shape of Water, Phantom of the Opera. Apparently this
Speaker 1: happens in Howard the Duck, which I haven't seen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a whole Yeah, King Kong is kind of an
Speaker 1: example this, I would argue, like Tarzan is kind of
Speaker 1: an example. I love Godzilla, you would be mine, Okay,
Speaker 1: if I had to pick, it would be Godzilla. So.
Speaker 1: And then on another end of the spectrum of this
Speaker 1: is whenever men fall in love in movies with non humans,
Speaker 1: it's usually a very hot robot and or alien like
Speaker 1: blanks like literal blank the girlfriend experience. Yeah, yeah, a
Speaker 1: sexy blank slate. There's a lot of I mean, there's
Speaker 1: a there's a lot of When it comes to like
Speaker 1: the beast trope, A lot of the tropes involved with
Speaker 1: that are racist. A lot of the tropes involved with that. Uh.
Speaker 1: In the in the case of the Shape of Water
Speaker 1: hot Fish Alert. Uh, that is like more of a
Speaker 1: gentle telling of that where it's like, this is the
Speaker 1: other creature, King Kong is hell a racist? And I
Speaker 1: think you had a great point with that where Dessert
Speaker 1: hands of like this sort of fetishizing a disabled character. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: because in most of these examples, when it's a woman
Speaker 1: loving a creature or some other you know, other non human,
Speaker 1: she's usually very conventionally attractive and he is not. Isn't
Speaker 1: that why I wonder give Tim Burton a chance? I guess,
Speaker 1: state nerds, State Nerds. It's almost as if women's value
Speaker 1: in society is based on her appearance, and how there's
Speaker 1: a ridiculous standard of beauty that we have to uphold
Speaker 1: and maintain well. And in both of these relationships. In
Speaker 1: in the Born Sexy Yesterday trope, the man teaches the
Speaker 1: woman everything she knows. He's in complete control of shaping
Speaker 1: her as a person, which is wow, what a fantasy. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then and and then the the you know, the
Speaker 1: female character in the in the Beast trope still also
Speaker 1: kind of loses because very often the beast will retaliate
Speaker 1: on her will like first behave violently or toxic, and
Speaker 1: and then she has to be the one to tame
Speaker 1: him bend over backwards to make it work. Yeah, a
Speaker 1: lot of emotional labor in the Beast mad sometimes kidnapping,
Speaker 1: like right, because in both there's usually like a situation
Speaker 1: where the human has to teach humanity to the hot
Speaker 1: robot or the beast, But yeah, the context is entirely different.
Speaker 1: So yeah, good point, Caitlin. Uh Okay, anyway, what else
Speaker 1: did you want to One thing we could mention is
Speaker 1: the baldest Woman in Charge happens because Peg keeps getting
Speaker 1: her hair cut shorter and shorter gets as she gets
Speaker 1: more powerful, she gets snipped more. It's there there, on
Speaker 1: board with the Baldest Woman in Charge narrative. Another quick
Speaker 1: thing is the scene where Edward is like a guest
Speaker 1: on a talk show with Peg, and a woman in
Speaker 1: the audience says like, oh, have you ever thought about
Speaker 1: having corrective surgery or prosthetics? I know a doctor who
Speaker 1: might be able to help, And then Edward says, I'd
Speaker 1: like to meet him. Yeah, what if the doctor wasn't
Speaker 1: to him Edward, but he just assumed because it was
Speaker 1: a doctor that it would well, he lived up in
Speaker 1: a castle and he still had that sexism like ingrained in.
Speaker 1: He didn't even learn that. He I think have another
Speaker 1: strike against the inventor. Yeah, the inventor is just sitting
Speaker 1: around and being like, hey, if you ever happened to
Speaker 1: meet a woman, she's dumb, do you do? Kind of
Speaker 1: see the inventor teaching him like etiquette, but it is
Speaker 1: like very stuffy, old fashioned etiquette stuff. So he yeah,
Speaker 1: he was the little that he was socialized was like
Speaker 1: very archaic stuff. Yeah, And there is that crazy moment
Speaker 1: in the this I do remember when I was a
Speaker 1: kid of like what whoa in the talk show scene
Speaker 1: where one of the girls and this would be me
Speaker 1: in any contexts, like do you have a girlfriend? And
Speaker 1: then we're just because he just stares and it's like
Speaker 1: for ten seconds, he stairs and we cut out to
Speaker 1: Kim wanting the interview, and he's still he's just like
Speaker 1: and no one says anything of like this is just
Speaker 1: say no, and then he himself and then and then
Speaker 1: he's like I have to snip something, and he's something, hey,
Speaker 1: let's take another quick break and then we'll be right
Speaker 1: back here's the fun thing we can talk about is
Speaker 1: Tim Burton being a racist. Okay, that's fun. Let's do it.
Speaker 1: Rape timber being a racists topics. Um, so, as we know,
Speaker 1: Tim Burton's movies are painfully white. He does not care
Speaker 1: like many white directors in Hollywood, does not care about
Speaker 1: being inclusive, unlike most white directors in Hollywood. He later
Speaker 1: went on to say it was very intentional that everything was. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he likes it that way. Yeah, He's like, um, what
Speaker 1: else would I do? And it's like, sir, you want
Speaker 1: to take that again? And no, okay, I'm writing this
Speaker 1: down right here that you're you said this, and he
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, he needs to be you know. It's
Speaker 1: like if I had scissor hands, I swear to God. Well,
Speaker 1: allow me to read a quote from Tim Burton I
Speaker 1: think from two thousand and sixteen. Uh. He says, I
Speaker 1: remember back when I was a child watching The Britty
Speaker 1: Bunch and they started to get all politically correct, like okay,
Speaker 1: let's have an Asian child and a black a black,
Speaker 1: he says, all black. And then he interrupted himself and
Speaker 1: he was like, I used to get more offended by
Speaker 1: that than just and then he interrupts himself again and says,
Speaker 1: I grew up watching black exploitation movies, right, and I
Speaker 1: said that's great. I didn't go like, Okay, there should
Speaker 1: be more white people in these movies. End quote. Do
Speaker 1: you I think in this quote he's realizing he's very
Speaker 1: raisist in real time. Yes, yeah, yeah. There are literal
Speaker 1: dashes in the quote where he like, he's like, talk
Speaker 1: about black splitation, let's talk about it. You've talked up
Speaker 1: at it. And then he's like and I and every
Speaker 1: pause and he got more braceis he like paused and
Speaker 1: like dull doubles down, and then he's like, anyways, I've
Speaker 1: seen a black explanation movie. And then he walks into
Speaker 1: the ocean goodbye. Because I think there's only one character
Speaker 1: who's a person of color in Edward Scissor Hands, and
Speaker 1: it's one of the police officers. And other than that,
Speaker 1: it's the whitest movie you've ever seen. Yes, And it's
Speaker 1: crazy because it's, you know, fiction, so there's no excuse.
Speaker 1: All his work is fiction. It's all fantasy land. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a white fantasy land. Yeah. Yeah, we see Alice in
Speaker 1: Wonderland five hundred. Yeah, I do think like Tim Burton
Speaker 1: is a He's an interesting case for a director because
Speaker 1: he started out as an artist. Specifically he loved drawing,
Speaker 1: so that's why his films are so visual, which is
Speaker 1: up plus. But also he like doesn't have this like
Speaker 1: story minded. It's all about the visual. So he likes
Speaker 1: white people and big eyes because he likes paleness and
Speaker 1: it reminds him of himself or something. Wes Anderson has
Speaker 1: a version of this syndrome where he needs everything to
Speaker 1: look nice and then he like it's an all white
Speaker 1: cast and then if there's not white people, they're using
Speaker 1: set dressing in his weird painting that he's making and
Speaker 1: it's not like thinking yeah about things. Um, like, your
Speaker 1: work is a part of the world. Except Tim Burton.
Speaker 1: I think his ideal world is him on top of
Speaker 1: a mountain in his own little mansion alone, when they're
Speaker 1: making statues at ice. I guess with everyone at the
Speaker 1: bottom being like that. He was awesome. It was awesome
Speaker 1: when he was here. He was really cool. We all
Speaker 1: wanted to it was hot. Oh boy, I think that
Speaker 1: was all that I have. Oh man, I know I've
Speaker 1: gotten through my five pages. I did I did want
Speaker 1: to say in in praise of the character Edward scissor Hands.
Speaker 1: It is very unusual to have a male protagonist that
Speaker 1: is not traditionally macho. It is kind of unusual to
Speaker 1: have a movie where the only really traditionally macho character
Speaker 1: in the movie is you know, literally killed. But I
Speaker 1: think that there are there are pluses to that character,
Speaker 1: because that's not something that you see especially in like
Speaker 1: if you were a young boy who did not you know,
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, connected to those like action heroes
Speaker 1: who are like I'm gonna punch every woman. I see, uh,
Speaker 1: in a way like Edward is like somewhat feminineine like
Speaker 1: here and there, Like uh, yeah, I think that's a
Speaker 1: big plus. He cuts hair, he like does our you know,
Speaker 1: and he's he does like domestic stuff. He's chop and lettuce,
Speaker 1: he's chopping. He was made in a cookie factory. He
Speaker 1: connects with almost all women. And I don't know, I mean,
Speaker 1: there there are elements to that character that I think
Speaker 1: are good, especially for for its time. Yeah, I would agree,
Speaker 1: And I think that's actually probably I think that's a
Speaker 1: trend across a lot of Tim Burton's work, where most
Speaker 1: of his characters are his protagonists are male identifying, but
Speaker 1: they are usually like very soft spoken. They're usually Johnny Depp. Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: they're usually Johnny Depp, who is an awesome guy. I've
Speaker 1: heard nothing but good things, what a cool man. Okay.
Speaker 1: To be fair, though, when I, you know, was watching
Speaker 1: this movie a lot and other of Tim Burton's Johnny
Speaker 1: Depp movies, I was a big fan of Johnny Depp
Speaker 1: back then. And yeah, you're legally required if you didn't
Speaker 1: like Johnny Depp, you had to reggie your stir yourself
Speaker 1: with the government. It was like a thing, uh there,
Speaker 1: and and uh, just just continuing that with that a
Speaker 1: little bit. Even though a bracissor Hands is a soft
Speaker 1: spoken male character who thinks sort of happened to he
Speaker 1: doesn't do that much. He usually lets women just show
Speaker 1: him like hey, you're doing this now, and he's like okay,
Speaker 1: and it's like, okay, this is great. But he doesn't
Speaker 1: fall into like the nerd toxicity zone. Uh that a
Speaker 1: lot of like Anthony Michael Hall movies fall into of
Speaker 1: like the nerd feeling entitled to things from women, usually
Speaker 1: especially because they feel rejected and you know, there's no
Speaker 1: there's no element of that in Edward. He's very polite,
Speaker 1: he's very grateful. He is so I don't like Paddington,
Speaker 1: but not a hood. Paddington is way better. I have
Speaker 1: not seen you know, I really have to, but yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. There's that character specifically could have fallen
Speaker 1: into a lot of traps, doesn't Yeah, not to give
Speaker 1: Tim Burton more credit than he deserves. Yeah, well, does
Speaker 1: anyone have any other final thoughts? Just? Yeah, I guess,
Speaker 1: just to reiterate what Jamie said, like the ending of
Speaker 1: the movie is the weirdest, and the fact that she
Speaker 1: can't be with a guy who has scissors for hands
Speaker 1: because she's ugly now is so weird. And not that
Speaker 1: she can't be with a guy because she literally saw
Speaker 1: him murder someone. Yeah, like that's a legit reason to
Speaker 1: not date someone feel someone that would you know, make
Speaker 1: sexy time a little having flashbacks off you abbing that person,
Speaker 1: I'm letting him fall out a window. Yeah, we Does
Speaker 1: anyone have any questions or comments that they want to share? Yeah,
Speaker 1: come on down to we can come mind. I just
Speaker 1: wanted to point out the Titanic similarity. And then you
Speaker 1: have an old woman telling her grandchild that is not
Speaker 1: related to the man that she loved in the story. Wow,
Speaker 1: this person apause, Thank you so much. Yes, I'm one
Speaker 1: of the people who has not seen the movie, but
Speaker 1: I've read the Wikipedia. You've seen the movie, then basically
Speaker 1: you've seen it. But the one part I can't remember,
Speaker 1: and I feel like it might be actually pretty significant
Speaker 1: because of the Princess Bride reference is old Winona writer
Speaker 1: telling the story to her grand daughter, grandson, granddaughter, and
Speaker 1: in the Princess Bride it was the grandson, right, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: the story that had more fighting and action and romance
Speaker 1: kind of what I was leading to. Okay, whoa so
Speaker 1: yes dropped them. It was like, anyway, looks like you
Speaker 1: forgot something awesome, so good. So to recap, this story
Speaker 1: that's being retold to the young girl is a is
Speaker 1: a romance story. It's a love story, whereas the story
Speaker 1: and the Princess Bride that's being told to a young
Speaker 1: boy is about there's action and there's fighting, and he
Speaker 1: s at the love. He makes the grandpa skip over that,
Speaker 1: at least at first. He warns up to it eventually,
Speaker 1: but yeah, there is a distinct difference. Thank you for
Speaker 1: pointing it out. And also I don't I forget if
Speaker 1: we said this, really, the framing device does not need
Speaker 1: to be there. They could also just start. Do you
Speaker 1: guys think you're gonna tell your grandchildren people you almost
Speaker 1: had sex with. I'm gonna be like, so, Okay, there's
Speaker 1: this guy who's in a Lunchables commercial, but he's really nice.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to have any children, so that that
Speaker 1: won't happen for me. You can tell you can tell
Speaker 1: my grandchildren. Okay, yeah, couple like, Hey, so there's this guy.
Speaker 1: I just want to add really quick. I think, as
Speaker 1: you know, Alan Arkin does a good job in this movie,
Speaker 1: but I could think of one man who could have
Speaker 1: done a better job. Uh. Well, his nickname is Freddie,
Speaker 1: but his full name is Mr Alfred Molina. I think
Speaker 1: he would have been a great thick daddy in this movie.
Speaker 1: And he Okay, if Alfred Molina was playing the god,
Speaker 1: I can't even say his name. You just I saw
Speaker 1: goose bumps go up and down your arm. Sorry, i've
Speaker 1: activated your scissors in your body a shifting. Uh. If
Speaker 1: Alfred Molina was playing the Alan Arkin character, there would
Speaker 1: be no doubt in our minds that Peg was like
Speaker 1: getting head because Molina characters, and we're like, he takes
Speaker 1: care of business. He even dot Cock, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: especially dot Cock. He belongs in this universe, Dock and
Speaker 1: somebody is as he was. Yeah, those there other questions
Speaker 1: I thought. I wanted the back. Yeah, come on, come
Speaker 1: on down. So I love this movie. And one of
Speaker 1: the things that I always noticed was so weird about
Speaker 1: it that they just like have popped in and then
Speaker 1: never address again, is that one like crazy woman who's
Speaker 1: in her dark house, like playing her piano, and she's
Speaker 1: like that guy's trouble, Like where does what? What? Can
Speaker 1: we just talk about her? Totally? Totally, We kind of
Speaker 1: skipped over church Lady a little bit. I think that
Speaker 1: church Lady, I mean, she's another very trophy character in
Speaker 1: the neighborhood. But I think this is also like tim
Speaker 1: Burton's weak sauce attempt to be like the suburbs are
Speaker 1: evil like and she and and you know, like, I
Speaker 1: think he's just taking every element of the suburbs and
Speaker 1: demonizing it in this very like eighties and nineties way
Speaker 1: where there were so many movies win the writers in
Speaker 1: a lot of them that is like, you know, my
Speaker 1: parents who loved me fuck them. That is the theme
Speaker 1: of so many movies. It's like teenagers who are very
Speaker 1: privileged being like, hey mom and Dad, I know you
Speaker 1: worked hard your entire fucking life to give me anything
Speaker 1: I want, but score you horrible or I think that
Speaker 1: was how I interpreted church Lady. It's like a little
Speaker 1: Timmy in the back room, like, hey, you know you're
Speaker 1: a little church It's stupid. Yeah, that is what he
Speaker 1: thinks he was doing with that character. That was Mr
Speaker 1: tim making his big point. Yeah, it also seemed like
Speaker 1: because I grew up in a very small town, and
Speaker 1: it seems like someone who wasn't born in a small
Speaker 1: town like being like, oh I know what that's all about.
Speaker 1: Oh you got this person. Oh you've got the crazy
Speaker 1: church lady. Oh and you got the housewife. Like I
Speaker 1: heard that ticky taggy song. I think I got it.
Speaker 1: That's all the rest to do. Okay, does my script anyways?
Speaker 1: It's a guy with sharp hands. Well we think, what
Speaker 1: a worry? Any other questions or comments? Yeah, I just
Speaker 1: went to flash back to when Jamie said if Alfred
Speaker 1: Molina was Elan Arkin, there will be no doubt that
Speaker 1: he was going down. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, Anyways,
Speaker 1: let's a doubt. So this is a two part episode.
Speaker 1: There aren't any cats. There's a lot of dogs in
Speaker 1: this movie, but there are sadly no cats, so I
Speaker 1: can't bring up cat facts. Oh there's a Backstreet boy
Speaker 1: in this movie. Yes, there's a bat boy. So when
Speaker 1: they were driving into the suburbs for the first time
Speaker 1: and you see a man doing a slipping slide, that's yeah,
Speaker 1: dude White Well, I don't know, but it's on his IMDb.
Speaker 1: He credits himself as being in Edwards hands. Nick, good
Speaker 1: for you, So there's not they're no cats. But if
Speaker 1: there's nipples to the Carters have, I'm gonna speculate and
Speaker 1: say too. So Nick Carter has two nipples. That's Carter
Speaker 1: facts with Caitlin. Any other questions on the speculation of
Speaker 1: whether or not Edward scissor him has a circulatory system.
Speaker 1: We clearly know that his entire insights are made of scissors,
Speaker 1: So if his blood, why not can't his blood just
Speaker 1: not be smaller red scissors? Oh my god, you cracked it.
Speaker 1: I think that's probably what it is. That's one of
Speaker 1: those ones where we're like, oh, yeah, it's tiny red scissors.
Speaker 1: I thought you were going to ask a question that
Speaker 1: Caitlin hates when people bring up about our beetle juice
Speaker 1: episode where I at up what I think is the
Speaker 1: question of the century, and now that's Halloween season again,
Speaker 1: we have to ask ourselves does beetle juice come scabs?
Speaker 1: And if so, are they dry or are they wet? Uh?
Speaker 1: This has been your annual reminder of wondering what beetle
Speaker 1: juice comes. They're drying? Okay, we have a hardened That's worse.
Speaker 1: That's a way worse. Because then I think I've said
Speaker 1: this before too. It would sound like a shuffle like
Speaker 1: a deck of cards. Does that mean then, does Edward
Speaker 1: scissor hands come tiny little scissors? Yeah? Why does there
Speaker 1: always have to be a sound effect? What ifs just
Speaker 1: like and that there was like n scams in the ground,
Speaker 1: I have to go home any other Yeah, I just
Speaker 1: wanted to mention that at the end, like the big
Speaker 1: gun fights, saying where he has a gun for some reason,
Speaker 1: when my gold when he slaps and then like Donkey
Speaker 1: kicks Kim, I felt like that was really excessive because
Speaker 1: he already has a gun, you have a reason to
Speaker 1: kill him, but he still has to get the violence
Speaker 1: towards women in there for some reason when he's been
Speaker 1: like pulling on her and kind of like you know,
Speaker 1: bossing her around the whole time. That's a great point. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that that sounds like another like in the
Speaker 1: way that they go way out of the way to
Speaker 1: demonize this job character in a way that is cartoonist
Speaker 1: for this movie. Uh yeah, it's like, let's get in
Speaker 1: a few lat because I what I would guess is
Speaker 1: like some sort of studio note of like, please remind
Speaker 1: everyone why we hate this guy because he's about to
Speaker 1: get murdered. Yeah, just once again, let's really justify this murder. Ye,
Speaker 1: not getting rid of murder. So let's just make sure
Speaker 1: we write to justify killing Anthony Michael Hall, non negotiable
Speaker 1: everything around it. Yeah yeah, but absolutely like getting in
Speaker 1: because there's not like that's not an element of this
Speaker 1: movie at all up until that moment. I think we
Speaker 1: talked about this in the point break episode. This happens
Speaker 1: all the time in movies where the bad guys will
Speaker 1: inflict violence on women more so than anyone else because
Speaker 1: it like ups the stakes and it makes it same.
Speaker 1: Oh that look how bad these guys are woman. A
Speaker 1: lot of men, yeah, a lot of men, and just
Speaker 1: like the whole uh you know, lazy writing trope of
Speaker 1: making abusers of women very cartoonish where you can literally
Speaker 1: see you're like, oh, yeah, he's gonna hit a lady.
Speaker 1: That's not Men in the audience can think to themselves exactly,
Speaker 1: so that you know, when there's predatory characters like this,
Speaker 1: men who may have many of those qualities themselves can
Speaker 1: feel comfortable and be like, well, I don't I'm not
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not screaming, and I'm not screaming
Speaker 1: at my friend a drunk drive for no reason, you know.
Speaker 1: And so I'm bringing a gun to an abandoned castle,
Speaker 1: So I'm good. I don't need Yeah, so that's unfortunate.
Speaker 1: Thanks for bringing that up. I think we have time
Speaker 1: for one more question. Yeah, okay. First, I want to
Speaker 1: say that I'm the end of the movie made me
Speaker 1: really sad, But what made me happy was I'm new
Speaker 1: to the podcast thanks to my fiance. I don't know
Speaker 1: the rules with the test, but I did notice that
Speaker 1: in the beginning is it peg, the mom is talking
Speaker 1: to Berta from Two and a half Man, The main Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then they both said names, and so I'm like,
Speaker 1: does that I got? We got really excited. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I think that passes the test? Right? This is the
Speaker 1: perfect God, It's literally like this podcast, Yes, I think
Speaker 1: what that is the smoothest transition we've ever had podcast ever.
Speaker 1: As a fan of Segways, I am pro God. That
Speaker 1: was I like, who It was like, oh, are we
Speaker 1: getting a gifted to I'm about to come scabs? That
Speaker 1: was so WHOA Like anyways, uh, Segway to what we
Speaker 1: were going to end the show on. Right, So let's
Speaker 1: talk about whether or not this movie passes the Bechdel test. Uh.
Speaker 1: The scene said I think you're calling into question is
Speaker 1: when Peg is going kind of door to door at
Speaker 1: the very beginning of the movie and trying to sell
Speaker 1: her Avon's m because it's not as funny the second
Speaker 1: time around. Okay, but she is talking to we learned
Speaker 1: the other woman's name is Helen at the end of
Speaker 1: that scene, and she comes back for several times and
Speaker 1: she's like, oh, you can buy your you know, your
Speaker 1: creams and your shadows, and she does her presentation with her.
Speaker 1: She does a really good job, is really proud of her.
Speaker 1: Every time I see that scene. She sells it really
Speaker 1: hard of my mom's avon Lady Bev Bev Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: And then Helen's like, I never buy anything from you producers.
Speaker 1: Sophie's just shaking your head. We left bev On examined
Speaker 1: for another show. Yeah, let's start a whole new podcast
Speaker 1: about it. Let's talk about my oly neighbor Bev. So anyway,
Speaker 1: so that conversation, I would say passes because they we
Speaker 1: learned both of their names, and they don't talk about
Speaker 1: men at all. They're talking about a failed cosmetic purchase,
Speaker 1: and it's really that's when that's still one of the
Speaker 1: funniest moments in the movie, too, so charming. Would she
Speaker 1: just they know because that she's like okay, goodbye. So funny.
Speaker 1: And then the scene right after that, Peg is talking
Speaker 1: to Joyce and Joyce is all like, oh, there's a
Speaker 1: vehicle in my driveway. I'm very busy trying to suck
Speaker 1: this dishwasher repair man. Yeah, she's chaotic Corney. Yeah. She
Speaker 1: never mentioned explicitly that she's busy with a man. The
Speaker 1: subtext of that conversation is revolving around a man. There's
Speaker 1: a few different phone conversations where that's the case where
Speaker 1: sometimes there's a lot of you know, like neighborhood phone
Speaker 1: calls and you know, tim, Timmy's over in the corner,
Speaker 1: like this is dumb, But yeah, there are somewhere it's
Speaker 1: like there's an exchange inside of the phone call that passes.
Speaker 1: But the subtext has to do with like, what's what's Edward? Snipping? Yeah,
Speaker 1: because I would say most of the conversations between women
Speaker 1: after those first few scenes always about Edward. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: there are quite a few of them. They're quite a
Speaker 1: few moments where it's like a group of only women talking,
Speaker 1: but they're always yeah, it's like what's Edward? What'sward? There
Speaker 1: is there very good impression the film. It was a
Speaker 1: very offensive portrayal of women. Oh my god, you know
Speaker 1: women like well, I think the movie does an offensive
Speaker 1: portrayal of character. Once Edward enters the picture, they all
Speaker 1: just forget their lives and it's about Edward. Yeah, they're gossiping,
Speaker 1: you know church. Yea, that's true. God's a man, so
Speaker 1: she was talking about it's not true. But yeah, I
Speaker 1: would say at least those first couple of scenes in
Speaker 1: the beginning do pass the test also the framing device
Speaker 1: at the very beginning of the movie, when old Wrinkley
Speaker 1: went on a rider, is all like, hey, let me
Speaker 1: tell you how snow was invented. That would pass, except
Speaker 1: that we never learned that granddaughter's name. Does it pass
Speaker 1: the vaxillent test? Winona riders talking to her own rubbers Yes,
Speaker 1: and the rubber suit creaks and response, I would say yes,
Speaker 1: throwing it out there. Yeah, well does the rubber suit
Speaker 1: have a name? Does the rebersuit? Yes? Note writer's rubber suits. Sorry. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So to answer your question, the movie does pass the
Speaker 1: Bechtel test. It does, but many of the conversations between
Speaker 1: women do not. So it is one of those movies
Speaker 1: where there are more female cast members in general than
Speaker 1: there are male cast members, at least in terms of
Speaker 1: people who have impact on what happens in the movie.
Speaker 1: So it should pass by way more than it does, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And also I wish that Kim had a female friend. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's very easy. She's like the head cheerleader, you would think,
Speaker 1: I know. And also I'm like, where I hope that,
Speaker 1: you know? I almost was like, I hope she doesn't
Speaker 1: have friends because if not, like, why aren't they like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you just dump this guy. It's horrible hair. Yeah, scary
Speaker 1: and have you seen the scissor dude who just moved in?
Speaker 1: Come on? Yeah, I think we could really we should
Speaker 1: re edit that movie with us as friends. Yeah, just
Speaker 1: be like yo, Kim, you see the sharp guy? Yeah? Anyways,
Speaker 1: dun't bad thinking my go Hall. That wouldn't pass it
Speaker 1: back toil testing. So well, goodbye, nobody's perfect. Shall we
Speaker 1: write the movie on our nipple scale? It right? As
Speaker 1: you know, our nipple scale zero to five nipples. Based
Speaker 1: on the movie's portrayal of women. Oh, I'm gonna give it,
Speaker 1: I think too, because the female characters we see in
Speaker 1: the movie trophy though they may be, they are certainly
Speaker 1: way more active than nearly every male character in the story.
Speaker 1: So it's largely women driving the narrative. I would say
Speaker 1: that it gets a lot of nipples docked off for
Speaker 1: being excessively white, for fetishizing and treating disappelite and in
Speaker 1: a very strange way. But it's also like, as we
Speaker 1: also talked about, the like main male character is not
Speaker 1: like a gross toxic dude. He's I mean, he's bare,
Speaker 1: he's done a baby, baby, he says like seven words
Speaker 1: in the whole story. His first line is talking about
Speaker 1: his dad. How he thinks his dad. He's like, he
Speaker 1: didn't wake up, right, what's it's dad died in front
Speaker 1: of him. You're right, And he's never seen a window.
Speaker 1: You're right. You know that when, the when, the when?
Speaker 1: The not magician, but you know, the terrible inventor, the
Speaker 1: sexist inventor who made two things. Ever is like handing
Speaker 1: him his hands and he's like, here's everything you've ever wanted.
Speaker 1: I'm dead. I just feel like that's going to happen
Speaker 1: to me something. Yeah, well, anyway, nipples because it's not
Speaker 1: like the most regressive story we've ever seen. It's certainly
Speaker 1: not progressive, but I think it hands right. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give it two nipples, and I will give
Speaker 1: one to Edward. And because Edward is just made of scissors,
Speaker 1: his nipples are also scissors. N doesn't have a fighting chance. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so one nipple scissor to Edward, and I'll give my
Speaker 1: other nipple to Joyce because I appreciate how horny she
Speaker 1: was throughout the film. I'm going to go to as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree that this movie avoids doing something's wrong that
Speaker 1: it could and fully capitalized doing other things wrong that
Speaker 1: it could very on board with with what you're saying,
Speaker 1: and and just like rewatching most Timburton movies now is
Speaker 1: just going to leave a bad taste in your mouth
Speaker 1: because now he is just laid the cards out of
Speaker 1: the table, you know what he's about, and giving him
Speaker 1: money is letting that continue to happen. So you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a bummer because it's hard. It's
Speaker 1: hard to rewatch a movie that you you used to
Speaker 1: really love and that you made, you made your mommy froth.
Speaker 1: So with that in mind, it's like it's unfortunate. However,
Speaker 1: you know, Doubt is still a movie that's out in
Speaker 1: the world, and so we have that to feel good about.
Speaker 1: And uh, yeah, I agree with the two nipple rating.
Speaker 1: I'm going to give both of my nipples to Nick
Speaker 1: Carter day. He's gonna need them for that slipper slide.
Speaker 1: That's two slippy nips her, Nick Carter. Well boy, Uh,
Speaker 1: if it was just it was PEG's movie, oh that
Speaker 1: would be five nipples out of five. That's really what
Speaker 1: I crave every time I watched this movie. Just more peg.
Speaker 1: She's a delight. It should have been a movie, but
Speaker 1: because that's not the movie and that's not Tim Burton. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna go to for all stated reasons above. Y'all.
Speaker 1: You give me your nippies too. Oh the doggies because
Speaker 1: those are real haircuts. They really had to give those
Speaker 1: dogs haircuts. And uh yeah, I can't believe we got
Speaker 1: through all the way through this without saying one of
Speaker 1: my favorite words, topiari. Anyways, topiari is in this movie,
Speaker 1: and it's a you know, it's a dinosaur bush thing.
Speaker 1: It's when you make a bush look like a thing
Speaker 1: it's not supposed to. You see a bush, you're like, hey,
Speaker 1: what if something else? And then you get your snippy
Speaker 1: hand friend and he does this little thing and then
Speaker 1: it's you get a topiari. I do that in the shower. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: every woman is a topiari. Well with that, Maggie, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for being our guest. We've had so
Speaker 1: much fun. To our audience for coming to the show.
Speaker 1: Hey it's Caitlin. I am back in the studio and
Speaker 1: on behalf of the back dol cast. We just wanted
Speaker 1: to give a few more shout outs. Thank you to
Speaker 1: the Ruby for having us at the live show. If
Speaker 1: you're in l A, check out this venue. It's really cool.
Speaker 1: Go to the Ruby l A dot com for more info.
Speaker 1: Thank you to our producers Sophie and Aristotle for being
Speaker 1: the best and most supportive producers in the world. Thank
Speaker 1: you to Sammy Junio for recording the live show for us.
Speaker 1: Thanks again to everyone who came out to watch the
Speaker 1: live show. You were the best audience we could have
Speaker 1: asked for. A big thanks again to our guest Maggie
Speaker 1: may Fish, who you can follow on Twitter at Maggie
Speaker 1: may Fish May spelled m a E. You can subscribe
Speaker 1: to her YouTube channel at Maggie may Fish, where she
Speaker 1: makes great video essays about film, including one entitled looking
Speaker 1: for Meaning in Tim Burton's Movies, which you should definitely
Speaker 1: check out. And as always, you can follow us at
Speaker 1: Bechtel Cast on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. You can give
Speaker 1: us a five nipple rating on iTunes. You can subscribe
Speaker 1: to our matren by going to patreon dot com slash
Speaker 1: Bechtel Cast and that gets you too bonus episodes every
Speaker 1: single month for only five dollars a month. You can
Speaker 1: go to our merch store at t public dot com
Speaker 1: slash the Bechtel Cast and you can grab our shirts, mugs, pillows,
Speaker 1: notebooks and all sorts of other goodies let's say feminist icon,
Speaker 1: queer icon and other cool stuff. We are going to
Speaker 1: do more live shows in the future, so keep your
Speaker 1: eyes peeled and hopefully we come to a city near
Speaker 1: you soon. Thank you so much for listening. Thing. You
Speaker 1: all get five nips from us and we will see
Speaker 1: you next time. Bye bye,