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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Throughout our lives, we

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Speaker 1: we face health issues off and on, and you never

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Speaker 1: know what's really going to kind of finally knock you

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Speaker 1: to your knees. But the beauty part of that is

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Speaker 1: it sometimes when we're struggling with our health, we have

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Speaker 1: an unintended angel that kind of enters into our life

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Speaker 1: and promises to be with us to the day that

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Speaker 1: we die. Well, that was the case with Reggie and

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Speaker 1: Carrol Summer. They found one another. They found one another,

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Speaker 1: and they held onto one another very very tightly, and

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Speaker 1: they were enjoying their retirement. But they were both faced

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Speaker 1: with great obstacles and the greatest top school was yet

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Speaker 1: to come. It ended in their deaths. Today we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about the double homicide of Reggie and Carol Sumner.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs. Jackie Howard,

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Speaker 1: executive producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, is joining

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Speaker 1: me today. Jackie, what can you tell us about Reggie

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Speaker 1: and Carol. Carol and Reggie Simner reportedly met in high

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Speaker 1: school and rekindled their relationship later in life. They found

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Speaker 1: each other, they wanted the same things out of the

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Speaker 1: rest of their life, and they wanted to spend time together.

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Speaker 1: Yet this couple was suffering through some health issues. Reggie

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Speaker 1: had diabetes and he had also had some injuries to

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Speaker 1: his ankle which required him to need the assistance of

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Speaker 1: a wheelchair or a cane on occasion. However, Carol was

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Speaker 1: suffering through liver cancer as well as happatitis as a result.

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Speaker 1: It's this combination of health issues that will come into

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Speaker 1: play a little later, Joe, So let's talk about how

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Speaker 1: their health issues are impacting their life right now. Their

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Speaker 1: quality of life, cancer, health injuries, and diabetes. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: a horrible set of circumstances to be faced with. You know,

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Speaker 1: they were not like really really elderly people. This couple

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Speaker 1: was only sixty one years old and they had a

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Speaker 1: lot of years in front of mine. I think that

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Speaker 1: that's what they thought. At one point in time. They

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Speaker 1: had made this really, this really warm promise to one another.

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Speaker 1: It really struck me when I was doing the research

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Speaker 1: on this case, how they would be with one another

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Speaker 1: until the day they died, that they had promised to

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Speaker 1: take care of one another, and you know, they they

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Speaker 1: had gotten together back up in South Carolina, and they

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Speaker 1: felt strong enough about the relationship that they had together

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Speaker 1: up there despite their health issues, that they decided to

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Speaker 1: sell everything they had up in South Carolina and moved

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Speaker 1: down to Jacksonville, Florida, you know, just southbound on and

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Speaker 1: set up a home down there, and that they would

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Speaker 1: spend the rest of their days down there. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I think that one of the thoughts that came to

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Speaker 1: mind someone who had quoted Reggie at one point time

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Speaker 1: as having said that the doctors felt like that the

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Speaker 1: environment down in Jacksonville, near the near the beach would

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Speaker 1: be good for his condition, and he was. You know,

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Speaker 1: they hadn't just said that he had diabetes. People have

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Speaker 1: stated over and over and over again, relative to to

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Speaker 1: his history that he had severe diabetes, which means he

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Speaker 1: was obviously insulin dependent. It's not some kind of pre

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Speaker 1: diabetic state. That means his sugars were probably out of

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Speaker 1: whack and he had to have constant monitoring, you know,

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Speaker 1: where he's taking his blood sugar level constantly, several times

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Speaker 1: a day. He's having to be treated by an end

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Speaker 1: of chronologist that's a physician that actually works with people

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Speaker 1: that have diabetes. And he was on very specific medication,

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Speaker 1: and you know, at the towards the end of his life,

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Speaker 1: Reggie had injured his ankle. And one of the big

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Speaker 1: fears for people that have diabetes or any kind of injuries,

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Speaker 1: particularly to their peripheral areas, you know, their hands, their feet,

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Speaker 1: these sorts of things, because they don't heal quite as well.

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Speaker 1: And this was a severe injury. He he had actually

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Speaker 1: fractured an ankle and it required him at least for

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Speaker 1: part of the time, to be wheelchair bound. So you

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Speaker 1: can imagine that. You know, he's dealing with everything that's

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Speaker 1: associated with diabetes, including maybe compromised eyesight, you know, fatigue,

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Speaker 1: constant sleepiness, just a general malaise much of the time.

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Speaker 1: And then on top of that, his wife, Carol, she

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Speaker 1: is faced with this huge struggle of liver cancer, and

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Speaker 1: liver cancer is not something that somebody just kind of

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Speaker 1: easily bounces back from. She's in the midst of this

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Speaker 1: of fighting this disease, and because she had developed liver cancer,

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Speaker 1: it sent her into what's referred to as hepatic failure,

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Speaker 1: which is where the liver begins to shut down and

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Speaker 1: all the functions that everything that is required of the

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Speaker 1: liver to do, you know, systemically is compromised. At that

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Speaker 1: point in time, she develops jauntice along with the hepatitis,

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Speaker 1: and that means that she would have a yellow tinge

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Speaker 1: to her skin, in constant pain. There's always problems with digestion, nausea,

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Speaker 1: these sorts of things associated with this disease, and not

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Speaker 1: to mention again, in a very feeble, weakened state. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they're they're both of these people are fragile as newborn kittens.

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Speaker 1: As we look at their health conditions, Joe, we see

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Speaker 1: the term vulnerable keep being mentioned about these two people.

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Speaker 1: What is it about their conditions that make them vulnerable?

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Speaker 1: Are we saying that their body is vulnerable to disease?

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Speaker 1: Are we saying that these two individuals really are are

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Speaker 1: physically feeble and unable to defend themselves. Yeah, yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: a big part of this. And you know, you can

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Speaker 1: even look at primal animal activity and see how predators

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Speaker 1: actually pick the weakest among the her those that they

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Speaker 1: know that they can control and take down. And in

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Speaker 1: the Sumner's case, they were the weakest of the week,

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Speaker 1: you know, and of course that they have things that

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Speaker 1: people might want, that sort of thing. But they're compromised

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Speaker 1: in sense that if you know, if if someone came

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Speaker 1: into their home to attack them in any way, they

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Speaker 1: would not be able to put up a fight. It

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Speaker 1: would be like a grown man going head to head with,

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Speaker 1: you know, somebody that has the strength probably of maybe

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Speaker 1: an eight year old child. At this point in time,

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Speaker 1: they're they're just living day to day, hour to hour,

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Speaker 1: minute to minute, you know, and probably to a great

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Speaker 1: degree thankful for every second that they have on this

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Speaker 1: earth because they I think that they probably understood how

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Speaker 1: fragile their life was. You said, predator Joe, and you

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Speaker 1: really couldn't have phrased that any better, because that is

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Speaker 1: what happened to this couple. They met a group of predators,

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Speaker 1: Tiffany Cole, Michael James Jackson, Alan Wade, Bruce Kent Nixon Jr.

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Speaker 1: When the Sumners moved to Jacksonville, Florida, they sold a

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Speaker 1: car to Tiffany Cole. Cole agreed to make monthly payments

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Speaker 1: and often drove down to jackson to make those monthly payments. Well.

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Speaker 1: In June of two thousand five, Cole and her new boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: Michael Jackson drove to Jacksonville to complete the paperwork on

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Speaker 1: the sale of the car. And while they were there,

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Speaker 1: they stayed with the Sumners at their home and it

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Speaker 1: was there that a plan to rob this couple that

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Speaker 1: had been so generous to Tiffany Cole was hatched. They

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Speaker 1: planned to steal money from their bank accounts. But what's more,

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Speaker 1: they decided that they were not adverse to killing this

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Speaker 1: couple if necessary. Joe, this this goes to this thought,

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Speaker 1: you know, talking about predators and the behavior of those

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Speaker 1: types they observed for a while. You know, they'll watch,

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Speaker 1: they'll see if there's any danger to them. And once

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Speaker 1: they're in such an intimate environment, you know, when you're

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Speaker 1: in that small, tight, little circle of you know, someone's home,

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Speaker 1: you're actually sleeping in their bed, you're eating their food,

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Speaker 1: you're you know, using their bathroom facilities, all these sorts

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Speaker 1: of things, the predator has the ability to walk through

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Speaker 1: there and check everything, see how vulnerable, how how easy

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Speaker 1: it is perhaps to access the home, how easy it

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Speaker 1: is to maybe take things that are just lying around.

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Speaker 1: But here, here's here's the most important part. If you're

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Speaker 1: a predator and you're in what's referred to as in

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Speaker 1: asymmetrical relationship with a person. That means that you're dominant

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Speaker 1: over someone that is weaker. You're looking at them and

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Speaker 1: you can exploit things you can see that they're you know,

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Speaker 1: I use term feeble, and I don't mean that is

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Speaker 1: a disrespecting term. It's just that they're feeble in the

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Speaker 1: sense that in their physical bodies that are very weak.

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Speaker 1: And that's something that you would catch on too very quickly.

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Speaker 1: You know. You think about Carol suffering from hepatic failure

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Speaker 1: due to liver cancer, and she's anytime she takes a step,

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Speaker 1: she to grab hold of the back of the chair

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Speaker 1: or brace herself against the wall. She has to measure

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Speaker 1: every footfall that she has in the house. Or you

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Speaker 1: begin to look and see that Reggie he he doesn't

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Speaker 1: move very well because of his ankle, that he would

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Speaker 1: rather be in the wheelchair kind of moving himself about

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Speaker 1: the house as opposed to ambulating anywhere and automatically. If

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Speaker 1: you are of the mindset to attack someone to take

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Speaker 1: everything that they have, it's at that moment in time

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Speaker 1: that bells start going off in your mind. If you

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Speaker 1: are the aggressor here and you know that this is

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Speaker 1: an easy mark for Reggie and Carol Sumner. They they

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Speaker 1: lived with this false sense of security. If I think

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Speaker 1: you think that you got the the world kind of

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Speaker 1: figured out that you're here in this place that you've

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Speaker 1: moved to for maybe to better your health and and

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Speaker 1: to move on with your life and and adjust your

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Speaker 1: life so that you can be happy and enjoy the

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Speaker 1: love of one another. But that suddenly turned a horror

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Speaker 1: for them. It did. They trusted Tiffany Cole, which turned

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Speaker 1: out to be not a very good idea. Tiffany Cole,

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Speaker 1: Michael Jackson, Alan Wade, Bruce Kent Nixon Jr. Took a month,

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Speaker 1: took one month to put their plan into action. They

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Speaker 1: intended to invade the home, asked to use the phone,

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Speaker 1: and then once inside they were going to attack the family.

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Speaker 1: And that's exactly what they did. But it was Wade

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Speaker 1: and Nixon, who the Sumners did not know, two men

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Speaker 1: who knocked down the door and asked to use the phone.

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Speaker 1: Once inside, they attacked the couple. The couple was bound

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Speaker 1: and gagged with the duct tape and from there put

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Speaker 1: into the trunk of their Lincoln town car. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: Tiffany Colin Michael Jackson Traveled in their car planning to

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Speaker 1: deliberately get pulled over for speeding if police got too

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Speaker 1: close to the Lincoln. Now what would have these physical

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Speaker 1: limitations done to the sum nurse, considering they already had

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Speaker 1: their own physical limitations. Well, first off, and I think

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Speaker 1: I think that it goes without saying. You know, our

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Speaker 1: our fight or flight kicks in. But here's the problem.

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Speaker 1: When you're when you are physiologically compromised, like Reggie and

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Speaker 1: Carol were, you might have that thought in your mind

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Speaker 1: that I need to flee, that I need to get away,

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Speaker 1: that I need to put distance between myself and danger.

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Speaker 1: What's really horrific about this is that now you're wrapped

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Speaker 1: in these bodies that are riddled with disease, diabetes and

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Speaker 1: cancer and these sorts of things. So you know, you're

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Speaker 1: you're thinking back, I would imagine two when you were

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Speaker 1: thirty and you could have maybe put distance between yourself

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Speaker 1: and in danger. But now you're in this compromise position

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Speaker 1: and you can't. So you've got adrenaline pumping even though

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Speaker 1: you can't use it to get away. Your breathing becomes shallow.

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Speaker 1: And one of the important points here, and something we

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Speaker 1: need to keep in mind, is that duct tape was

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Speaker 1: used on on both Carol and Reggie, and so when

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Speaker 1: that occurs, you know, we know that the police have

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Speaker 1: used the term gagged over and over again. I don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily think that this was a matter of the perpetrators

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Speaker 1: having taken duct tape and put a you know, a

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Speaker 1: wat of it into their mouth and jammed it down

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Speaker 1: their throat or anything like that. I think that it

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Speaker 1: was a covering over their mouth, potentially their nose, I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure, but certainly they're eyes as well. So now

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Speaker 1: you you know, your body is demanding more oxygen because

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Speaker 1: you're shallow breathing, and you've got health problems and your

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Speaker 1: airways compromised to the point where you can't uptake oxygen

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Speaker 1: and everything begins to fail. You know, for world Reggie,

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Speaker 1: who's suffering from severe diabetes, I'm sure his sugar's probably

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Speaker 1: got out of whack. And you know, along with diabetes

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Speaker 1: also comes issues like heart disease and these sorts of things,

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Speaker 1: so his his cardiovascular system could have well have been

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Speaker 1: compromised as well at this moment time. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: really important to have people ask me this question a lot.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you begin to think about manners and

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Speaker 1: causes of death. And they don't see a natural disease

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Speaker 1: that can be utilized as a means to commit homicide.

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Speaker 1: But I gotta tell you it can. If somebody is

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Speaker 1: compromised already and you have an awareness of that, you

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Speaker 1: can push somebody to the brink. You can actually kill

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Speaker 1: them visa VI. The in dwelling disease. They have. I

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Speaker 1: worked cases like that, and it's it's absolutely horrific. It's

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Speaker 1: not you know, it's not as simple as just shooting

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Speaker 1: somebody or stabbing somebody. Um, because physiologically they are compromised,

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Speaker 1: they have disease on board. You can harm, do great

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Speaker 1: harm to someone this way. And you know, this idea

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Speaker 1: of being in fear of your life being confined, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that many of us could ever even

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Speaker 1: begin to comprehend this idea of being bound and gagged

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Speaker 1: and blindfolded. You're already frail, and then you're essentially placed

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Speaker 1: into the trunk of your own car and you're completely

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Speaker 1: deprived of any of your external century indicators. Here. Maybe

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Speaker 1: you can smell, maybe you can't, but you can't see.

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Speaker 1: You're having to be helped along to walk, and the

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Speaker 1: next thing. You know, you can feel yourself on a

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Speaker 1: hard surface. You hear the trunk slam, and now you're

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Speaker 1: going down the road. You're moving away from where it

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Speaker 1: is that you felt you were safe in and you're

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Speaker 1: bumping down the road and in total and complete pitch

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Speaker 1: black darkness. One of the things that I know about diabetes, Joe,

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Speaker 1: is when you're sugar is high, it changes your emotions.

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Speaker 1: It changes the way that you think. You become confused,

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Speaker 1: you can become angry, and and then when you crash,

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Speaker 1: you can die from your sugar being out of range.

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Speaker 1: So describe for me what he would be going through

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Speaker 1: already in a panic, from worrying about his wife, worrying

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Speaker 1: about his own life, and worrying about his health. You know,

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Speaker 1: is he going to be able to assist her in

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Speaker 1: any way? So talk to me and explain about how

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Speaker 1: all of that is also impacting his idea or notion

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Speaker 1: of survival. Yeah, you know, and we don't you know.

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Speaker 1: When you you begin to think about the timeline when

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Speaker 1: these two showed up at the door and took control

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Speaker 1: of Reggie and Carol in their own home, you begin

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Speaker 1: to think about this. You don't know where either Reggie

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Speaker 1: or Carol were were their medications that day? And that's

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Speaker 1: a that's a critical point here because diabetics in particular

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Speaker 1: so dependent upon their medications to maintenance their life day

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Speaker 1: in and day out and to measure their sugar levels.

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Speaker 1: If if he becomes say, for instance, what's referred to

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Speaker 1: as hypoglycemic, which means that sugar dips precipitously, you become lightheaded, disoriented,

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Speaker 1: those sorts of things, and you have no idea, You're

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Speaker 1: you're totally completely confused at that moment time. So it

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Speaker 1: would impact your life greatly. It would impact your ability

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Speaker 1: to make decisions to defend yourself this sort of thing. Now,

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Speaker 1: if his sugar was going in the other way, if

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Speaker 1: if it had jumped up to an unexpected level because

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Speaker 1: it wasn't being maintenanced, and he's in this, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna again become short of breath, diphyretic, which means

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Speaker 1: you're gonna be sweating a lot, feeling like you're gonna

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Speaker 1: pass out. Either way, it's horrible situation to be in.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, he would not have been in a position two,

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Speaker 1: you know, take care of his wife or or himself

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Speaker 1: at that point in time, you have to compound their

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Speaker 1: situation with the fact that they are in the trunk

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Speaker 1: of a car. How is that oxygen supply going to

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Speaker 1: impact what is going on? And are they in fact

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Speaker 1: getting more exhaust from the vehicle than they are oxygen. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that a lot of that is going to be depended

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Speaker 1: upon how structurally intact the vehicle is, and of course

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Speaker 1: the exhaust system. I've had friends of mine that are

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Speaker 1: medical legal death investigators that have worked cases where people

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Speaker 1: have been placed into trunks and they have asphyxiated, not

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Speaker 1: from the lack of fresh oxygen being able to just

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Speaker 1: be present, but because there was an intrusion into that

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Speaker 1: environment of carbon monoxide, because there was a faulty exhaust system,

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Speaker 1: and that can play a part of it. And of

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Speaker 1: course we look for that at autopsy and there's certain

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Speaker 1: things that and they would have done this with both

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Speaker 1: Carol and Reggie. And if folks at home can just

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Speaker 1: think about this, think about the brightest artificial cherry pink

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Speaker 1: color you've ever seen on a piece of candy or

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Speaker 1: popsicle or something like that. That's actually the color, believe

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Speaker 1: it or not, that that the skin of people turns

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Speaker 1: that have been exposed to carbon monoxide, even the whites

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Speaker 1: of their eyes become kind of cherry pink and color.

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Speaker 1: And so that's something that when we see it at autopsy,

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Speaker 1: it's a huge flag for us. You know, we're thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: they have been exposed to something, and generally that leads

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Speaker 1: back to carbon oxide. And of course they would do

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Speaker 1: you know, in toxicology when they draw blood, there's a

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Speaker 1: test that we call carboxy hemoglobin level, which checks the

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Speaker 1: level of carbon oxide that an individual has in their system.

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Speaker 1: You know, just out walking around, there are minimal standards

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Speaker 1: that you know you're going to be exposed to, particularly

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Speaker 1: in urban environments of exhausting that's worth of thing, but

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Speaker 1: you can get up into those critical areas where it's

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Speaker 1: going to compromise your system, and that's certainly something that

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Speaker 1: would have played a part. Now when you think about

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Speaker 1: them shallow breathing in this environment, if they have any

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Speaker 1: other kind of associated problems with their heart their lungs,

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Speaker 1: that's going to play a part. And yet if the

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Speaker 1: quality of oxygen might not be there. But the question

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Speaker 1: you have to ask, is a trunk actually completely sealed

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Speaker 1: off from available fresh air, and that is generally not

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Speaker 1: the case. It's just not It's not like you're in

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Speaker 1: a plastic bag. So there would have been an air supply,

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Speaker 1: just I can't attest to the quality of the air

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Speaker 1: that they would have breathed and how much there would

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Speaker 1: have been in there. So the Sumners were forced to

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Speaker 1: hand over their financial information, their pin numbers for their

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Speaker 1: bank accounts. Tiffany Cole and Michael Jackson took their jewelry

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Speaker 1: and ponded and stole other items from the Sumners home,

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Speaker 1: and again the A T M card was used to

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Speaker 1: obtain more than a thousand dollars in cash. Now you

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Speaker 1: would think that this would be enough. You've stolen these

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Speaker 1: things from this family, you've taken them away, but that

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Speaker 1: was not how this was to end. The couple was

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Speaker 1: driven to South Georgia and placed in a four by

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Speaker 1: six ft grave that the perpetrators had dug in advance

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Speaker 1: in case it was necessary, you know, on body bags.

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Speaker 1: I think in a previous episode actually confessed to something.

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Speaker 1: I let my listeners know that myself am claustrophobic and

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Speaker 1: I cannot think of many things in this world that

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Speaker 1: would terrify me anymore than being closed up in a

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Speaker 1: grave or to be buried alive, and unfortunately and Reggie

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Speaker 1: and Carol Sumners case, that's what happened to them. The

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Speaker 1: perpetrators decided that despite the fact that the Sumners had

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Speaker 1: cooperated and give them all the information that they wanted,

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Speaker 1: they had already stolen money, jewels, and other items from

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Speaker 1: the home. They decided that it was necessary to kill

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Speaker 1: the Sumners. But instead of shooting, strangling, bludgeoning this couple,

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Speaker 1: they placed them into this grave that they dug and

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Speaker 1: buried them alive. Joe, I, my mind is blown. I

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Speaker 1: can't even begin to imagine, number one, what was going

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Speaker 1: through this couple's mind. But let's talk about what would

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Speaker 1: have happened to them, how did they die? The thing

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Speaker 1: that really strikes me in in Reggie and Carol's cases

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Speaker 1: the fact that it has come out that this grave

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Speaker 1: had been dug almost two days in advance. So let's

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Speaker 1: think about that just for a second. That means that

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Speaker 1: there was a plan in place. There was never necessarily

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Speaker 1: a plan to do anything other than have Carol and

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Speaker 1: Reggie's lives end in a hand dug hole out in

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Speaker 1: this desolate area down in South Georgia, which is literally

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Speaker 1: right across the border coming up out of North Florida,

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Speaker 1: you know, Jacksonville, Florida and and the border with Georgia

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Speaker 1: are not that far away. But these perpetrators chose an

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Speaker 1: area that was very isolated, and they went out there

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Speaker 1: two days in advance. And this this just boggles of

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Speaker 1: mind and dug this hole that they were going to

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Speaker 1: place this couple into, and I, you know, part of me,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're you're reading this and you're learning about it,

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Speaker 1: and you're thinking, you know, wow, I really wish on

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Speaker 1: one level, if they were gonna take them out, that

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Speaker 1: they would have done it mercifully. This this is probably,

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Speaker 1: in my estimation, at least, one of the most horrific

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Speaker 1: ways UH an individual can die. And it's not like

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Speaker 1: you're placed in an air tight coffin. Regi and Carol

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Speaker 1: Sumner were placed in a big hole in the ground

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Speaker 1: with a big pile of dirt adjacent to it. They

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Speaker 1: had been bound with duct tape. Hang on a second Joe.

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Speaker 1: The perpetrators reported that the couple had actually freed themselves

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Speaker 1: from their bindings. Number one, how could they have done that?

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Speaker 1: And what were the reports? Yeah, you know, the duct

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Speaker 1: tape was used to bind them with. And what does

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Speaker 1: duct tape, you know, what's the purpose of It's got

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Speaker 1: a really strong adhesive on the back of anybody's got

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00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: duct tapering your home can attest to this. It's certainly

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Speaker 1: stronger than any kind of tape you might use a

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00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: Christmas time to wrap packages with very resilient, very fibrous

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Speaker 1: and adhes if it's relatively strong. But let's keep in

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Speaker 1: mind this is Florida. You've got high relative humidity. You're

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Speaker 1: placing it on bare skin, which means that they were sweating.

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Speaker 1: And I would think probably Reggie in particular, because of

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Speaker 1: his diabetes. Diabetics many times when they are stressed, began

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Speaker 1: to sweat profusely, and that may have led to him

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Speaker 1: being able to shed these bindings. But I think probably

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Speaker 1: the most chilling part of this is that the perpetrators,

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Speaker 1: when they were later interviewed, stated that both Reggie and

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Speaker 1: Carol when they opened the trunk and they found him

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Speaker 1: in the back of that car, they were holding on

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Speaker 1: to one another, so they had adjusted to the point

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Speaker 1: where they could at least embrace. And when the purpose

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00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,719
Speaker 1: actually said they were praying, maybe they were praying that

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Speaker 1: they would be delivered from this. Maybe they were praying

403
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Speaker 1: for God's mercy at that moment in time, But this

404
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 1: I do know. Once that trunk was open, they took

405
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Speaker 1: this couple out of that car and they put them

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Speaker 1: into this hole that it had been dug two days

407
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Speaker 1: in advance, with the thought, with the thought that this

408
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: is how their lives were going to end. How did

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Speaker 1: their lives end? Joe? When you were buried alive, do

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00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: you inhale dirt into your lungs and suffocate? Do you

411
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 1: are you unable to expand your lungs and suffocate? That's

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Speaker 1: two types of asphyxiation? There? Am I missing something? Joe?

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Speaker 1: Was there another type? I gotta tell you. When I

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Speaker 1: was reading over the testimony of the medical examiner in

415
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,919
Speaker 1: this particular case and what what his determination was, it

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Speaker 1: really struck me because I had never come across the

417
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Speaker 1: case like this. The forensic pathologists that did the autopsy

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00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: on Reggie and Carroll's bodies actually came to the conclusion

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Speaker 1: that they had died of mechanical asphyxia. And let me

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Speaker 1: kind of break that down because it sounds, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: kind of bizarre. When you begin to think about it,

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00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: you think of mechanism that sort of thing, and and

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00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: many times that's what it means. It means that, you know,

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00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: one one descriptor that's famously used is to say someone

425
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 1: has a scarf and it's hanging over some type of

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00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 1: machinery that's operating and they get pulled in by the

427
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: scarf and it essentially chokes them asphyxiates them. Right there,

428
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: that's mechanical, and that's that's a classic example of that. However,

429
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: you have you have this elderly couple that's actually placed

430
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 1: into a grave and then dirt is placed upon their body.

431
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:58,479
Speaker 1: So think about the dirt being the mechanism here, and

432
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: you've got two factors that work here. So not only

433
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 1: were they mechanically asshixiated and is this is more of

434
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 1: what's referred to as a compression asphyxia. That means when

435
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: you begin to have weight placed upon you where your

436
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: chest can no longer rise and fall, which you know,

437
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: if you're digging, say for instance, they did dig a deep,

438
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: deep hole. That's a lot of dirt that you're gonna

439
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 1: put on their bodies. It's going to compromise their ability

440
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 1: for their chest a rise and fall, to inhalate, to

441
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 1: excelay all those sorts of things, and then you're diminishing

442
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: the amount of oxygen that's in there. And to your

443
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: point earlier, one of the other factors involved in this

444
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: case is that when the forensic pathologists did the dissection

445
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: and he began to closely look at the airway of

446
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: both Carol and Reggie, not just the airway, but Jackie

447
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: actually looked in the lungs. One of the things he

448
00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: found were particular bits of soil, the same soil that

449
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: you would have found down there. And I can tell

450
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,959
Speaker 1: you what that soul looks like. It's gonna be very sandy.

451
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: It's gonna be very very sandy. There might be some

452
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: loam mixed in with it. And that that dirt that

453
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: was from down there that you commonly see in Florida,

454
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: those sorts of things that you walk upon when maybe

455
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: you go to the beach, go on a vacation with

456
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: your family. That's what they had within their airways, and

457
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: at the end, that's what actually wound up killing them

458
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: because they inhalated this dirt that was being piled on

459
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: top of them. So it's this kind of complex event

460
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: that goes on, and you couple that with all of

461
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: that natural disease process. You know, Carol's liver cancer and

462
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: hepatitis and her being jaunticed and all those things that

463
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: come along with that, and then of course Reggie's diabetes

464
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: and his inability to move around. He was also incontinent

465
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: as well, which sometimes happens obviously with age, but it

466
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: can happen with diabetic patients that are in a greatly

467
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: physically compromised position. He's they're they're not receiving any kind

468
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: of care whatsoever. As a matter of fact, every with

469
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: every shovelful of dirt, there's more and more harm, there's

470
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: more and more danger that is coming to rest upon them,

471
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: to the point where it was the position they were

472
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: in was just completely and totally incompatible with life, and

473
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: they succumb there in the grave, lying there next to

474
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: each other. We've talked in the past a lot about asphyxia,

475
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: and we've talked about positional asphyxia. So is mechanical asphyxia

476
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: and positional asphyxia the same thing. No, they're not. And

477
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: I'll give you a great example of positional asphyxia. And

478
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: this is from my own personal experience working cases, and

479
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: I've had this happen a number of times. I say

480
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: a number is several times throughout my career, and it's

481
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: it's kind of a thread that runs through and people

482
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: are not aware of the effects that heroin has on somebody.

483
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 1: It really depressed, says the respiratory system obviously, you know,

484
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: you get into this kind of dream like state. And

485
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: I've had a number of heroin addicts that have set

486
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: there what they call their works up on a sink,

487
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: you know, where they'll they'll render down, they're injectable down

488
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: into a liquid form. They'll draw it up after they've

489
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,719
Speaker 1: they've turned it off on their arm and they're seated

490
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: on a toilet seat. They inject the heroin and in

491
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: these cases I've worked, the heroin addict after they have

492
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: dosed themselves will actually fall between the wall and the

493
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: edge of the toilet and in this compromised position that

494
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: can't get up, and this leads to that's a classic

495
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: example of positional ASPHIXI, and there's any number of other

496
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: things that can happen. You'd be actually surprised how many

497
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: people that are involved in car accidents die as a

498
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: result of kind of a positional slash compression asphyxia. Many

499
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 1: times you're in a position where you're us can no

500
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: longer rise and fall, and it comes and it's It's

501
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: not something that you can absolutely say positively that this

502
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: is in fact positional asphyxia without having very strong evidence

503
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: of it. In the event of a positional asphyxia, you

504
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: have this evidence of this kind of staring you in

505
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: the face, where they're in such a contracted position that

506
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: means their body is is positioned in such a manner

507
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: which their chest can no longer rise and fall and

508
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: they can't get free of it. In Carol, in Reggie's case,

509
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: though this is the mechanical asphyxia, it was a means

510
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 1: to an end. If you think of that dirt being

511
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 1: piled upon them, them being compressed by the dirt, them

512
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: inhalating the dirt. This was as if they had utilized

513
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: this dirt just like somebody would use a firearm to

514
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: kill them. How long would this couple have suffered? I

515
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: can say this, It would have been an excruciating death.

516
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: It would not have been quick. It would have been

517
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: they would have been gasping for air. You know. I

518
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: equated to you know, someone catching a fish and and

519
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: bringing bringing the fish up on the deck or the

520
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: dock and seeing you know, that fish gasping for air.

521
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: You can see their lips moving, their gills expanding, and

522
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 1: there's nothing there for them to breathe in, and they

523
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: would have been attempting to squeeze everybody of oxygen out

524
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: of that environment. Unfortunately there was none to be had.

525
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: And so the first thing that would have happened is

526
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: I think more than likely they would have gone into

527
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: a real state of panic. Again. If they weren't shallow

528
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: breathing before, then they're certainly shallow breathing now, and that

529
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: means that quick respirations, very very shallow. And then something

530
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: happens that's referred to as an oxia at that point

531
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: in time, where your brain goes into a deprived state

532
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: of oxygen. So you have this even further disorientation where

533
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: they're in this kind of dream like a milky state,

534
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: if you will, and at they're going to lose consciousness

535
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: of eventually. The key here though is and I don't

536
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: know that it's necessarily measurable. You know, if you were

537
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 1: to ask a forensic pathologist on the stand, you know, doctor,

538
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,439
Speaker 1: in your opinion, how long in fact did this take.

539
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: I think that that the physician would probably state what

540
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 1: the literature states, you know that your brain can't you know,

541
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: sustained life without oxygen for any longer than you know,

542
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: three or four minutes. But it would not have been quick.

543
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: It would not have been as quick as, say, for instance,

544
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 1: that they have been executed with a pistol. Perhaps all

545
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: four of these perpetrators are now in jail for the

546
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 1: murders of Reggie and Carrol Sumner. Just this past week,

547
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: Alan Wade was again sentenced, but he was taken off

548
00:34:54,080 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 1: of death row and sentenced to life in prison. I'm

549
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs