1 00:00:15,236 --> 00:00:24,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Most people in this country need a lot of things, 2 00:00:25,076 --> 00:00:29,236 Speaker 1: and we can afford them, and we can make sure 3 00:00:29,476 --> 00:00:33,036 Speaker 1: that people who contribute to the prophets and the wealth 4 00:00:33,116 --> 00:00:36,476 Speaker 1: of our economy are getting their fair share. And yet 5 00:00:36,556 --> 00:00:39,356 Speaker 1: the coalition that could make that happen on a consistent 6 00:00:39,516 --> 00:00:46,876 Speaker 1: way is splintered because of racism. Racism is harmful not 7 00:00:47,036 --> 00:00:50,356 Speaker 1: just to black people, not just to indigenous people, not 8 00:00:50,516 --> 00:00:53,956 Speaker 1: just to Asian Americans and Latin X Americans, to everyone. 9 00:00:54,836 --> 00:00:57,196 Speaker 1: And while the harm done to people of color is 10 00:00:57,236 --> 00:01:01,636 Speaker 1: playing to see, we're often blind to the ways racism 11 00:01:01,676 --> 00:01:10,956 Speaker 1: also harms white people. I'm Ebra Mexican, and this is 12 00:01:11,036 --> 00:01:16,836 Speaker 1: be anti racist. Now. I'm not stating that racism harms 13 00:01:16,916 --> 00:01:19,676 Speaker 1: white people to the same extent that it does people 14 00:01:19,676 --> 00:01:23,476 Speaker 1: of color. I'm stating that the racism of white people 15 00:01:24,076 --> 00:01:29,556 Speaker 1: can harm white people too. I'm an historian, a storyteller. 16 00:01:30,116 --> 00:01:33,636 Speaker 1: Let me tell you a story. It takes place in 17 00:01:33,676 --> 00:01:37,956 Speaker 1: eighteen forty seven. Tensions were running high in the United States. 18 00:01:38,356 --> 00:01:42,196 Speaker 1: Two years prior, Congress had voted to annex Texas, a 19 00:01:42,316 --> 00:01:47,916 Speaker 1: huge state with many powerful slaveholders. This annexation caused many 20 00:01:47,956 --> 00:01:51,316 Speaker 1: in the North to worry about the western spread of 21 00:01:51,436 --> 00:01:56,276 Speaker 1: enslavers and the enslaved. At the same time, white workers 22 00:01:56,356 --> 00:01:59,196 Speaker 1: feared that they would soon lose their jobs to the 23 00:01:59,236 --> 00:02:03,036 Speaker 1: growing number of black and immigrant laborers being placed in 24 00:02:03,156 --> 00:02:06,356 Speaker 1: skilled positions along the East Coast and in the slave 25 00:02:06,356 --> 00:02:11,116 Speaker 1: holding South. At the Tradeger Iron Works in Richmond, Virginia, 26 00:02:11,436 --> 00:02:15,556 Speaker 1: white workers went on strike in eighteen forty seven. They 27 00:02:15,636 --> 00:02:18,876 Speaker 1: demanded an increase in pay and the removal of the 28 00:02:18,996 --> 00:02:23,996 Speaker 1: negroes from skilled work. Enslavement wouldn't be abolished in Virginia 29 00:02:24,076 --> 00:02:27,996 Speaker 1: for almost another twenty years, and these white workers hated, 30 00:02:28,196 --> 00:02:32,116 Speaker 1: as they put it, being classed and associated with slaves. 31 00:02:33,956 --> 00:02:37,156 Speaker 1: This strike was a huge deal, one of the first 32 00:02:37,196 --> 00:02:40,116 Speaker 1: among white workers in the South, and it was part 33 00:02:40,116 --> 00:02:43,516 Speaker 1: of a broader movement against enslaved labor at the time, 34 00:02:44,196 --> 00:02:47,156 Speaker 1: meaning the movement did not focus on challenging the way 35 00:02:47,316 --> 00:02:51,196 Speaker 1: enslaved people were terrorized to labor in fields and homes 36 00:02:51,516 --> 00:02:56,276 Speaker 1: without pay. This movement went by the name Free Soil. 37 00:02:57,196 --> 00:03:02,036 Speaker 1: One of its leaders was David Wilmot, a congressman from Pennsylvania. 38 00:03:02,196 --> 00:03:05,676 Speaker 1: Congressman Wilmot wanted to end the western spread of slavery 39 00:03:05,716 --> 00:03:11,236 Speaker 1: because enslave labor threatened the labor of white workers. Congressman 40 00:03:11,276 --> 00:03:14,796 Speaker 1: Wilmot gave a speech in the House of Representatives claiming 41 00:03:15,316 --> 00:03:19,196 Speaker 1: with the Negro slave labors, the free white man cannot 42 00:03:19,316 --> 00:03:24,116 Speaker 1: labor by his side without sharing in his degradation and disgrace. 43 00:03:25,996 --> 00:03:29,316 Speaker 1: The workers on strike in eighteen forty seven wanted the 44 00:03:29,396 --> 00:03:33,916 Speaker 1: skilled positions at Tredeger Iron Works to be free soil, 45 00:03:34,516 --> 00:03:36,876 Speaker 1: but they had a hope problem with their free soil 46 00:03:36,956 --> 00:03:42,116 Speaker 1: being surrounded by enslaved soil. Like other working class Southern Whites, 47 00:03:42,436 --> 00:03:46,236 Speaker 1: the strikers had been taught since birth to value their 48 00:03:46,316 --> 00:03:51,116 Speaker 1: race over their class. They used slogans such as every 49 00:03:51,236 --> 00:03:57,876 Speaker 1: laborer a slaveholder. Many white laborers aspired to be wealthy enslavers, 50 00:03:57,916 --> 00:04:00,836 Speaker 1: just as many white working class men aspire to be 51 00:04:00,956 --> 00:04:06,116 Speaker 1: billionaire Donald Trump today. Many white laborers saw wealthy enslavers 52 00:04:06,116 --> 00:04:10,236 Speaker 1: as their allies, but the feeling was in mutual then 53 00:04:10,916 --> 00:04:15,396 Speaker 1: or now. Wealthy white enslavers viewed the white strikers as 54 00:04:15,516 --> 00:04:19,676 Speaker 1: dangerous kind of like free soilers up north. The white 55 00:04:19,676 --> 00:04:23,996 Speaker 1: power structure of Richmond, Virginia, rallied behind the owners, not 56 00:04:24,156 --> 00:04:28,756 Speaker 1: the workers of Tredeger Iron Works. The strike dragged on 57 00:04:29,116 --> 00:04:33,836 Speaker 1: from May to June eighteen forty seven without any victories, 58 00:04:34,716 --> 00:04:37,796 Speaker 1: the iron workers dropped their wage grievance and to a 59 00:04:37,836 --> 00:04:42,356 Speaker 1: certain extent, toned down their racist rhetoric. The local newspaper 60 00:04:42,436 --> 00:04:46,356 Speaker 1: reported that the objection to working with negroes did not 61 00:04:46,596 --> 00:04:49,676 Speaker 1: govern the striker's action, but that it was the mere 62 00:04:49,796 --> 00:04:54,396 Speaker 1: fear that the negroes were intended hereafter to take their places. 63 00:04:55,636 --> 00:04:59,796 Speaker 1: In the end, the white factory owners fired the white strikers, 64 00:05:00,276 --> 00:05:04,996 Speaker 1: teaching them a lesson that Frederick Douglas would explain years later. 65 00:05:05,556 --> 00:05:10,476 Speaker 1: The slaveholders, with the craftiness peculiar to themselves, by encouraging 66 00:05:10,516 --> 00:05:14,116 Speaker 1: the enmity of the poor laboring white man against the blacks, 67 00:05:14,596 --> 00:05:18,156 Speaker 1: succeed in making the said white man almost as much 68 00:05:18,436 --> 00:05:23,236 Speaker 1: a slave as the black slave himself. From the time 69 00:05:23,276 --> 00:05:28,636 Speaker 1: of enslavement until today, the ruling elites have divided and 70 00:05:28,796 --> 00:05:34,156 Speaker 1: conquered and subjugated working class white people and people of color. 71 00:05:38,476 --> 00:05:43,276 Speaker 1: Welcome to be Anti racist in Action podcasts, where we 72 00:05:43,316 --> 00:05:47,796 Speaker 1: discuss how to diagnose, dismantle, and abolish racism, How to 73 00:05:47,836 --> 00:05:51,996 Speaker 1: save humanity from the divisiveness of racist ideas and the 74 00:05:52,076 --> 00:05:56,436 Speaker 1: destructiveness of racist power and policy, How to free humanity 75 00:05:56,556 --> 00:06:01,036 Speaker 1: through the unity of anti racist ideas and the constructiveness 76 00:06:01,036 --> 00:06:05,716 Speaker 1: of anti racist power and policy. On b Anti Racist 77 00:06:06,076 --> 00:06:09,876 Speaker 1: we discuss how to make the impossible possible and how 78 00:06:09,916 --> 00:06:13,916 Speaker 1: to bring into being what modern humans have never known, 79 00:06:14,476 --> 00:06:33,676 Speaker 1: a just in equitable world. You ready, let's roll. In 80 00:06:33,716 --> 00:06:36,996 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties and forties, the United States went on 81 00:06:37,036 --> 00:06:41,316 Speaker 1: a nationwide building boom of public amenities funded by tax dollars, 82 00:06:41,596 --> 00:06:46,596 Speaker 1: which in Montgomery, Alabama, included the Oak Park Pool, except 83 00:06:46,756 --> 00:06:49,996 Speaker 1: the Oak Park Pool was for whites only. When a 84 00:06:50,076 --> 00:06:54,596 Speaker 1: federal court finally deemed this unconstitutional, the reaction of the 85 00:06:54,636 --> 00:06:58,436 Speaker 1: town council was swift. They would drain the public pool 86 00:06:58,796 --> 00:07:03,156 Speaker 1: rather than let black families swim to heaven. McGee is 87 00:07:03,196 --> 00:07:06,916 Speaker 1: an expert in economic and social policy and the author 88 00:07:07,156 --> 00:07:10,796 Speaker 1: of the best selling book Some of Us, What Racism 89 00:07:10,876 --> 00:07:15,796 Speaker 1: Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together. Heather explodes 90 00:07:16,116 --> 00:07:19,956 Speaker 1: one of the greatest racial myths, that white people lose 91 00:07:20,396 --> 00:07:25,356 Speaker 1: as people of color gain. She shows that as racism wins, 92 00:07:25,556 --> 00:07:30,956 Speaker 1: we all lose. Heather is one of America's sharpest thinkers, 93 00:07:30,996 --> 00:07:35,156 Speaker 1: The former president of the inequality focused think tank Demos 94 00:07:35,156 --> 00:07:40,396 Speaker 1: and its drafted legislation, testified before Congress and contributed regularly 95 00:07:40,436 --> 00:07:44,596 Speaker 1: to New shows, including NBC's Meet the Press. She now 96 00:07:44,676 --> 00:07:48,676 Speaker 1: chairs the board of Color of Change, the nation's largest 97 00:07:48,796 --> 00:07:53,676 Speaker 1: online racial justice organization. I sat down with Heather McGee 98 00:07:53,716 --> 00:07:57,676 Speaker 1: recently to learn how by investing in each other, we 99 00:07:57,796 --> 00:08:03,316 Speaker 1: can all achieve better jobs, better health, better democracy, better schools, 100 00:08:03,596 --> 00:08:08,876 Speaker 1: better neighborhoods for our kids, and so much more. Heather, 101 00:08:09,396 --> 00:08:14,196 Speaker 1: as always, it's truly an honor to speak with you. 102 00:08:14,196 --> 00:08:17,316 Speaker 1: Your book, The Some of Us, is the type of 103 00:08:17,356 --> 00:08:20,796 Speaker 1: book that I learned from that I think many Americans 104 00:08:20,796 --> 00:08:23,396 Speaker 1: and many people around the world can learn from. I 105 00:08:23,476 --> 00:08:27,636 Speaker 1: wrote this book because I felt like we were missing 106 00:08:27,716 --> 00:08:31,036 Speaker 1: something in the great pursuit of a society. It should 107 00:08:31,116 --> 00:08:35,636 Speaker 1: be to have progress, to have people have less want 108 00:08:35,956 --> 00:08:41,236 Speaker 1: and more joy, people to have more of the fruits 109 00:08:41,316 --> 00:08:46,476 Speaker 1: of economic progress and technological progress, and for our problems 110 00:08:46,516 --> 00:08:49,996 Speaker 1: to be solved generation after generation, right, And it felt 111 00:08:50,036 --> 00:08:57,316 Speaker 1: like that progress slowing down, slash reversing. When some Americans 112 00:08:58,156 --> 00:09:02,796 Speaker 1: imagine the transformation of this country, they imagine that they're 113 00:09:02,796 --> 00:09:06,276 Speaker 1: going to lose if we actually create inequitable and just, 114 00:09:06,676 --> 00:09:11,076 Speaker 1: anti racist America. And it seems, as you've written that 115 00:09:11,076 --> 00:09:15,036 Speaker 1: that's based on a zero sum myth. So I left 116 00:09:15,116 --> 00:09:18,796 Speaker 1: a career in economic policy to go out on this 117 00:09:19,236 --> 00:09:24,716 Speaker 1: quixotic journey in some ways, to find the answer to 118 00:09:24,996 --> 00:09:27,436 Speaker 1: the question of why can't we seem to have nice things? 119 00:09:27,476 --> 00:09:30,076 Speaker 1: And what are the roots of our dysfunction? And it's 120 00:09:30,156 --> 00:09:34,676 Speaker 1: there that I came upon this paradigm of the zero sum. 121 00:09:34,716 --> 00:09:37,356 Speaker 1: It's a term that means there's no such thing as 122 00:09:37,516 --> 00:09:41,916 Speaker 1: mutual progress when you have people who are in a 123 00:09:41,956 --> 00:09:46,116 Speaker 1: competition with one another. If Team A scores one more point, 124 00:09:46,276 --> 00:09:50,196 Speaker 1: team B scores one less point, the points will always 125 00:09:50,236 --> 00:09:52,676 Speaker 1: add up to zero, positive on one side, negative on 126 00:09:52,716 --> 00:09:56,276 Speaker 1: the other. Progress for team A has to come at 127 00:09:56,316 --> 00:10:00,476 Speaker 1: the expense of team B. There's a limited or fixed pie. 128 00:10:00,556 --> 00:10:05,076 Speaker 1: And that idea resonated so deeply with me. It sort 129 00:10:05,076 --> 00:10:07,636 Speaker 1: of gave a name and a description to something I 130 00:10:07,676 --> 00:10:13,076 Speaker 1: had sensed my whole life life, this fear that when 131 00:10:13,716 --> 00:10:20,916 Speaker 1: white supremacy falls, that the world will become one that 132 00:10:20,956 --> 00:10:26,036 Speaker 1: white people should fear. Therefore, racism is really great for 133 00:10:26,076 --> 00:10:29,156 Speaker 1: white people, really terrible for people of color, and so 134 00:10:29,596 --> 00:10:33,316 Speaker 1: their self interest is in preserving racism at all costs. 135 00:10:33,636 --> 00:10:36,316 Speaker 1: And it's the at all costs piece that really felt 136 00:10:36,356 --> 00:10:39,596 Speaker 1: so important for me to lay out, what are the 137 00:10:39,716 --> 00:10:44,996 Speaker 1: costs of racism to our entire society. What exactly is 138 00:10:45,036 --> 00:10:49,036 Speaker 1: the price white people are willing to pay to keep 139 00:10:49,236 --> 00:10:53,316 Speaker 1: the system as it has been? And once I started looking, 140 00:10:53,516 --> 00:10:57,556 Speaker 1: the list just kept growing, and that made it clear 141 00:10:57,556 --> 00:11:02,876 Speaker 1: to me that we have these self interested elites packaging marketing, 142 00:11:03,036 --> 00:11:07,716 Speaker 1: selling this zero sum lie to most white Americans, and 143 00:11:07,796 --> 00:11:11,956 Speaker 1: they're doing it for their own but our side, when 144 00:11:11,956 --> 00:11:15,116 Speaker 1: we only talk about racism as something that's good for 145 00:11:15,156 --> 00:11:18,116 Speaker 1: white people, are kind of like helping out a little bit. Right. 146 00:11:18,516 --> 00:11:21,436 Speaker 1: My provocation, the agitation that made me feel like, Okay, 147 00:11:21,436 --> 00:11:23,996 Speaker 1: maybe I do have something to add to this conversation 148 00:11:24,236 --> 00:11:27,196 Speaker 1: was we haven't told the full story of what it 149 00:11:27,276 --> 00:11:32,396 Speaker 1: has cost this entire country. You were specifically writing about 150 00:11:32,516 --> 00:11:34,796 Speaker 1: white folks who think that they're going to lose, But 151 00:11:35,556 --> 00:11:38,676 Speaker 1: as a man of color reading it, I also think 152 00:11:39,236 --> 00:11:43,516 Speaker 1: men of color too have bought into this myth of 153 00:11:43,516 --> 00:11:47,236 Speaker 1: the zero sum, and I think that as they've seen 154 00:11:48,076 --> 00:11:52,636 Speaker 1: women of color organizing and advocating in some cases rising, 155 00:11:52,996 --> 00:11:56,076 Speaker 1: they too have felt threatened as if they're losing. Yeah, 156 00:11:56,076 --> 00:11:58,636 Speaker 1: but back to white folks, this is what I've been 157 00:11:58,676 --> 00:12:00,636 Speaker 1: sort of saying, and I want to know whether I'm 158 00:12:00,676 --> 00:12:08,236 Speaker 1: just wrong that white Americans typically compare their lock two 159 00:12:08,276 --> 00:12:11,676 Speaker 1: people of color, and so, in other words, if their 160 00:12:11,796 --> 00:12:17,276 Speaker 1: school has more resources, in a way, their child's school 161 00:12:17,476 --> 00:12:19,716 Speaker 1: is almost like a first class school. They're like, whoa, 162 00:12:19,756 --> 00:12:23,236 Speaker 1: if we create equity, then I'm gonna be back in coach. Yeah, 163 00:12:23,276 --> 00:12:25,476 Speaker 1: I don't want that. I'm gonna lose. My kid's gonna lose. 164 00:12:26,076 --> 00:12:29,396 Speaker 1: But it seems to me that white Americans should be 165 00:12:29,396 --> 00:12:34,316 Speaker 1: assessing themselves from other white people in the Western world. Yeah, 166 00:12:34,356 --> 00:12:37,916 Speaker 1: and when they make that comparison, that's when they can 167 00:12:37,956 --> 00:12:41,916 Speaker 1: see actually what they don't have, how they're in coach. 168 00:12:42,636 --> 00:12:46,196 Speaker 1: That's right, And in fact, maybe in other societies in 169 00:12:46,236 --> 00:12:49,516 Speaker 1: the Western world, everybody's just in first class. There's no 170 00:12:49,636 --> 00:12:52,316 Speaker 1: little curtain that the flight attendant moves over right, and 171 00:12:52,436 --> 00:12:55,956 Speaker 1: everyone gets food right, everyone has a leg room, you know, 172 00:12:56,116 --> 00:12:59,796 Speaker 1: everybody gets to bring a bag. You know, this really 173 00:12:59,836 --> 00:13:04,036 Speaker 1: comes from and is a feature of how brutally hierarchical 174 00:13:04,116 --> 00:13:06,716 Speaker 1: our society is. In the first chapter of the Some 175 00:13:06,876 --> 00:13:10,036 Speaker 1: of Us, I go back in our history to the 176 00:13:10,076 --> 00:13:13,276 Speaker 1: beginning to find out where this zero sum worldview and 177 00:13:13,316 --> 00:13:16,956 Speaker 1: this lie came from, whose interest it served, and why 178 00:13:16,996 --> 00:13:20,596 Speaker 1: it sort of reanimated generation after generation, and as it 179 00:13:20,636 --> 00:13:24,196 Speaker 1: turns out, it was created as a way to sort 180 00:13:24,196 --> 00:13:32,116 Speaker 1: of discipline white Europeans in the colonial era to be 181 00:13:32,396 --> 00:13:37,076 Speaker 1: satisfied with their lot in a society where wealth was 182 00:13:37,156 --> 00:13:41,476 Speaker 1: still quite concentrated, and where, because of chattel slavery in 183 00:13:41,516 --> 00:13:44,916 Speaker 1: the plantation economy, there actually wasn't a lot of room 184 00:13:44,956 --> 00:13:49,676 Speaker 1: a white person who was not a plantation owner. Their 185 00:13:49,756 --> 00:13:52,796 Speaker 1: labor wasn't needed in the southern economy, right, like, what 186 00:13:52,836 --> 00:13:55,636 Speaker 1: do we need you for? Right? This myth of white 187 00:13:55,636 --> 00:14:00,356 Speaker 1: supremacy was sold to white masses so that they could have, 188 00:14:00,476 --> 00:14:03,996 Speaker 1: of course, as w B depoys said, the psychological wages 189 00:14:03,996 --> 00:14:07,956 Speaker 1: of whiteness rather than material wages, and those psychological wayes 190 00:14:07,996 --> 00:14:13,036 Speaker 1: were knowing all always that in a deeply unequal economy 191 00:14:13,396 --> 00:14:18,036 Speaker 1: they could nonetheless count on being more than and better 192 00:14:18,076 --> 00:14:23,236 Speaker 1: than black people. Precisely, and of course we're not as 193 00:14:23,236 --> 00:14:28,076 Speaker 1: familiar with the roughly five million or so non slaveholding 194 00:14:28,556 --> 00:14:33,676 Speaker 1: working class and poor whites, many of whom opposed succession 195 00:14:34,036 --> 00:14:38,476 Speaker 1: during the Civil War, many of whom rioted for food, 196 00:14:39,076 --> 00:14:42,996 Speaker 1: many of who sent their sons and fathers and brothers 197 00:14:43,036 --> 00:14:47,356 Speaker 1: to the battlefields to die. For slaveholders who were maintaining 198 00:14:47,396 --> 00:14:51,516 Speaker 1: their poverty as they were enslaving other people, and then ironically, 199 00:14:51,596 --> 00:15:00,676 Speaker 1: their great great grandchildren are now carrying around Confederate flags. Absolutely, 200 00:15:01,076 --> 00:15:05,436 Speaker 1: that is that's the okie doke, right. That is the 201 00:15:05,476 --> 00:15:08,716 Speaker 1: way in which the loss cause ideology, which is just 202 00:15:08,756 --> 00:15:12,716 Speaker 1: one more name and form of this big lie about 203 00:15:12,756 --> 00:15:17,836 Speaker 1: white supremacy, that communicates what white people's relative worth is 204 00:15:18,236 --> 00:15:21,676 Speaker 1: to black people and how they need to feel about 205 00:15:21,756 --> 00:15:26,596 Speaker 1: black people. You now have white people in the same 206 00:15:26,636 --> 00:15:31,076 Speaker 1: breath deny that their family had anything to do with slavery, 207 00:15:31,116 --> 00:15:35,876 Speaker 1: which might be true, but then deny that the Confederate 208 00:15:35,876 --> 00:15:39,956 Speaker 1: flag is a symbol of slavery and attach themselves to 209 00:15:40,876 --> 00:15:47,236 Speaker 1: what is a very cheap symbol of an aspirational status. 210 00:15:47,676 --> 00:15:52,756 Speaker 1: Right that you know didn't feed them. Didn't feed them then, 211 00:15:52,996 --> 00:15:56,316 Speaker 1: isn't feeding them now? And what I try to do 212 00:15:56,516 --> 00:16:01,196 Speaker 1: is to lay out how many things our country desperately needs. 213 00:16:01,356 --> 00:16:04,396 Speaker 1: And by our country, I mean most people in this country, 214 00:16:04,556 --> 00:16:06,596 Speaker 1: most people in a country where one percent of the 215 00:16:06,636 --> 00:16:10,036 Speaker 1: population owns more wealth in the middle class. Most people 216 00:16:10,036 --> 00:16:12,556 Speaker 1: in this country need a lot of things, and we 217 00:16:12,716 --> 00:16:17,156 Speaker 1: can afford them, and we can rewrite the rules around 218 00:16:17,196 --> 00:16:20,876 Speaker 1: the way business acts and operates in order to make 219 00:16:20,876 --> 00:16:24,636 Speaker 1: sure that people who contribute to the profits and the 220 00:16:24,676 --> 00:16:27,956 Speaker 1: wealth of our economy are getting their fair share of it. 221 00:16:28,236 --> 00:16:30,756 Speaker 1: And yet the coalition that could make that happen on 222 00:16:30,796 --> 00:16:35,076 Speaker 1: a consistent way is splintered because of the lie of 223 00:16:35,116 --> 00:16:40,036 Speaker 1: the zero sum and most importantly, the vehicles for collective 224 00:16:40,036 --> 00:16:42,556 Speaker 1: action that would bring us shoulder to shoulder and allow 225 00:16:42,636 --> 00:16:45,756 Speaker 1: us to have the power to get what we need 226 00:16:45,836 --> 00:16:51,356 Speaker 1: out of society. Government and labor unions have been degraded 227 00:16:51,796 --> 00:16:57,036 Speaker 1: in the white imagination because of racism. White Americans turn 228 00:16:57,116 --> 00:17:01,516 Speaker 1: their backs on the pro government, pro labor formula that 229 00:17:01,556 --> 00:17:03,676 Speaker 1: created the white middle class in the middle of the 230 00:17:03,716 --> 00:17:06,596 Speaker 1: twentieth century because of racism in the wake of the 231 00:17:06,636 --> 00:17:12,356 Speaker 1: Civil Rights movement. I'm Heather c McKee, and you're listening 232 00:17:12,396 --> 00:17:19,036 Speaker 1: to be anti racist with Abram X Candy. I think 233 00:17:19,236 --> 00:17:25,556 Speaker 1: the zero sun game does not allow Americans to realize 234 00:17:26,236 --> 00:17:29,556 Speaker 1: that we are part of a greater community, and we 235 00:17:29,636 --> 00:17:32,516 Speaker 1: need to defend that greater community, because if we leave 236 00:17:32,596 --> 00:17:35,996 Speaker 1: the community exposed, we're going to become exposed. And I 237 00:17:36,036 --> 00:17:40,076 Speaker 1: think the chapter that for me exposed this the most was, 238 00:17:40,076 --> 00:17:43,596 Speaker 1: of course, your chapter detailing what actually happened during the 239 00:17:43,596 --> 00:17:46,196 Speaker 1: Great Recession. I'm so glad you asked me about this chapter. 240 00:17:46,316 --> 00:17:48,756 Speaker 1: It is the one that I am closest to because 241 00:17:48,756 --> 00:17:50,516 Speaker 1: it was really the issue that I worked on for 242 00:17:50,556 --> 00:17:53,996 Speaker 1: the first half of my career, the deregulation of the 243 00:17:53,996 --> 00:17:57,796 Speaker 1: financial industry, which basically just means powerful people in the 244 00:17:57,836 --> 00:18:01,396 Speaker 1: market can regulate themselves. If you say the people who 245 00:18:01,396 --> 00:18:05,956 Speaker 1: should decide are the winners in the market, right right, 246 00:18:06,396 --> 00:18:08,076 Speaker 1: that's not a lot of people of color, that's not 247 00:18:08,116 --> 00:18:10,996 Speaker 1: a lot of women. So you're shifting who gets to 248 00:18:11,076 --> 00:18:14,716 Speaker 1: decide how much workers are paid, how much people can pollute, 249 00:18:14,756 --> 00:18:18,476 Speaker 1: how much people can charge on interest, not from the government, 250 00:18:18,596 --> 00:18:21,916 Speaker 1: as most advanced societies do and have, but rather to 251 00:18:22,076 --> 00:18:25,716 Speaker 1: the usually wealthy white men themselves. So the deregulation of 252 00:18:25,756 --> 00:18:29,476 Speaker 1: the financial sector happened just around the time when the 253 00:18:29,556 --> 00:18:35,396 Speaker 1: federal government was finally moving to end its explicitly racist 254 00:18:35,476 --> 00:18:40,796 Speaker 1: practices of redlining and discriminating against black would be property 255 00:18:40,836 --> 00:18:44,316 Speaker 1: owners and would be customers of banks. So it was 256 00:18:44,356 --> 00:18:48,436 Speaker 1: a perfect storm. And there are a couple of pieces 257 00:18:48,436 --> 00:18:50,476 Speaker 1: of this that I try to say as much as 258 00:18:50,476 --> 00:18:55,556 Speaker 1: possible because they're really flouting the conventional wisdom. One often 259 00:18:55,636 --> 00:19:00,396 Speaker 1: the idea is that this was people who needed subprime 260 00:19:00,436 --> 00:19:04,076 Speaker 1: mortgages in order to buy their first home. And in fact, 261 00:19:04,076 --> 00:19:07,076 Speaker 1: the majority of subprime mortgages were refinances, so it's people 262 00:19:07,116 --> 00:19:10,956 Speaker 1: who already had homes who then got a refinance loan 263 00:19:11,116 --> 00:19:13,676 Speaker 1: that often wound them up in foreclosure. So that's how 264 00:19:13,716 --> 00:19:18,036 Speaker 1: you see a net loss in homeownership. And then, of course, second, 265 00:19:18,116 --> 00:19:21,356 Speaker 1: the core myth is the idea that these were risky 266 00:19:21,436 --> 00:19:25,476 Speaker 1: borrowers who shouldn't have been eligible for good credit, and 267 00:19:25,556 --> 00:19:27,676 Speaker 1: therefore it was sort of a risk that everybody took. 268 00:19:27,756 --> 00:19:29,636 Speaker 1: The borrower took a risk, the lender took a risk, 269 00:19:29,676 --> 00:19:32,196 Speaker 1: and whoops, it didn't work out. But that's not the case. 270 00:19:32,356 --> 00:19:35,316 Speaker 1: In two thousand and seven, Wall Street Journal huge studying 271 00:19:35,516 --> 00:19:39,916 Speaker 1: all the subprime mortgage holders in the country. The majority 272 00:19:39,956 --> 00:19:43,476 Speaker 1: of them had prime credit scores. Then why were there 273 00:19:43,516 --> 00:19:46,076 Speaker 1: these subprime loans which really just meant they were more 274 00:19:46,156 --> 00:19:49,676 Speaker 1: expensive and had worse terms, more likely to end up 275 00:19:49,676 --> 00:19:52,116 Speaker 1: in foreclosure. Why were they flourishing? Why were they one 276 00:19:52,116 --> 00:19:54,516 Speaker 1: out of every five mortgages at the peak? And it 277 00:19:54,596 --> 00:19:58,876 Speaker 1: was because they were so profitable, and how could they 278 00:19:58,876 --> 00:20:01,836 Speaker 1: get away with it? Because they started in the late 279 00:20:01,876 --> 00:20:05,396 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties and early two thousands, testing out this new 280 00:20:05,436 --> 00:20:08,436 Speaker 1: exotic mortgage product on the people who were the least 281 00:20:08,436 --> 00:20:13,316 Speaker 1: protected and the least respected by financial industry people and 282 00:20:13,396 --> 00:20:19,116 Speaker 1: by regulators, the relative newcomers in many ways to homeownership, 283 00:20:19,316 --> 00:20:22,756 Speaker 1: Black and brown homeowners in these sort of equity rich 284 00:20:22,876 --> 00:20:26,716 Speaker 1: working in middle class black neighborhoods. So what happened was 285 00:20:26,916 --> 00:20:29,956 Speaker 1: you started to see these massive foreclosures in the early 286 00:20:29,996 --> 00:20:34,116 Speaker 1: two thousands, and as an advocate at that time for 287 00:20:34,236 --> 00:20:38,516 Speaker 1: consumer protection, I was in many conversations with people who 288 00:20:38,596 --> 00:20:41,716 Speaker 1: had the power to address a sort of quiet crisis 289 00:20:41,756 --> 00:20:45,396 Speaker 1: that was burning through black and brown neighborhoods before subprime 290 00:20:45,436 --> 00:20:49,436 Speaker 1: became a household word. And it was so clear that 291 00:20:49,516 --> 00:20:53,436 Speaker 1: the age old stereotypes that equated black people with risk 292 00:20:54,276 --> 00:20:56,996 Speaker 1: were stopping them from seeing the crisis for what it 293 00:20:57,156 --> 00:21:00,436 Speaker 1: was before it was too late. Literal quote from Senate 294 00:21:00,436 --> 00:21:03,996 Speaker 1: Banking Committee staffer was we put these people in homes 295 00:21:04,196 --> 00:21:06,316 Speaker 1: when we shouldn't have. It's like, who's the wee, right? 296 00:21:06,796 --> 00:21:10,396 Speaker 1: These are black people who have grimmed and saved and 297 00:21:10,476 --> 00:21:12,996 Speaker 1: by the very edge of their fingernails, grabbed onto the 298 00:21:13,036 --> 00:21:16,636 Speaker 1: American dream. Despite everything that people in this room have done, 299 00:21:16,916 --> 00:21:20,996 Speaker 1: and it was so heartbreaking to see so much predation 300 00:21:21,196 --> 00:21:24,476 Speaker 1: and so much loss, and so much indifference in the 301 00:21:24,516 --> 00:21:27,276 Speaker 1: halls of power. And it wasn't until the formula was 302 00:21:27,316 --> 00:21:32,076 Speaker 1: tested and perfected and it was so profitable that that machine, 303 00:21:32,196 --> 00:21:35,316 Speaker 1: fueled by racism and greed, rolled over the rest of 304 00:21:35,356 --> 00:21:38,756 Speaker 1: the wider and whiter mortgage market. And then we know 305 00:21:39,156 --> 00:21:42,196 Speaker 1: where the story ends with the crash and the Great Recession. 306 00:21:43,676 --> 00:21:48,596 Speaker 1: It's just amazing how many livelihoods could have been saved 307 00:21:49,516 --> 00:21:53,516 Speaker 1: during the Great Recession if people did not have a 308 00:21:53,596 --> 00:21:59,996 Speaker 1: zero sum perspective, if people actually challenge racism. During the 309 00:22:00,076 --> 00:22:06,356 Speaker 1: coronavirus pandemic, it was originally assumed that black people were 310 00:22:06,836 --> 00:22:12,036 Speaker 1: primarily being infected in field because they were so lazy, 311 00:22:12,396 --> 00:22:18,636 Speaker 1: obese and not taking the problems seriously, and then it 312 00:22:18,756 --> 00:22:25,076 Speaker 1: led to this refusal to check the problem aggressively. If anything, 313 00:22:25,516 --> 00:22:28,436 Speaker 1: things were opened back up, and then by the end 314 00:22:28,476 --> 00:22:33,756 Speaker 1: of the year, Middle America states like the Dakotas were 315 00:22:33,796 --> 00:22:37,356 Speaker 1: facing the highest rates of infection and death in the 316 00:22:37,476 --> 00:22:40,396 Speaker 1: number of white lives that could have been saved during 317 00:22:40,396 --> 00:22:44,396 Speaker 1: the coronavirus if those white lives actually cared about black lives. 318 00:22:44,796 --> 00:22:50,156 Speaker 1: The parallels are really profound. Speaking about housing, you'll have 319 00:22:50,196 --> 00:22:53,636 Speaker 1: some Americans who will say, Okay, you know what, Yes, Heather, 320 00:22:53,716 --> 00:22:57,476 Speaker 1: I could understand how that's a problem. Obviously, we should 321 00:22:57,476 --> 00:23:02,236 Speaker 1: have taken those subprime mortgages seriously when they were attacking 322 00:23:02,276 --> 00:23:04,956 Speaker 1: black home buyers. We shouldn't have seen black people as 323 00:23:04,956 --> 00:23:08,476 Speaker 1: the problem. Certainly we can see how that led to 324 00:23:08,516 --> 00:23:12,276 Speaker 1: the Great rest. And I'm specifically talking about wealthy white 325 00:23:12,276 --> 00:23:15,836 Speaker 1: Americans who are sitting right now in homogeneous white neighborhoods, 326 00:23:16,676 --> 00:23:21,836 Speaker 1: who then can't make the connection between that problem and 327 00:23:21,956 --> 00:23:25,476 Speaker 1: the problem that you actually talk about in a chapter 328 00:23:25,556 --> 00:23:30,636 Speaker 1: called Living Apart, where you actually document that it's not 329 00:23:30,796 --> 00:23:35,596 Speaker 1: just a racist idea that predominantly white schools and neighborhoods 330 00:23:35,636 --> 00:23:39,596 Speaker 1: are good. It's actually demonstratively false, and it's not even 331 00:23:39,636 --> 00:23:43,076 Speaker 1: good for white people. That's right. I wrote the chapter 332 00:23:43,396 --> 00:23:47,636 Speaker 1: Living Apart to interrogate and flip on its head the 333 00:23:47,676 --> 00:23:50,556 Speaker 1: way we normally think of segregation as something that white 334 00:23:50,556 --> 00:23:54,476 Speaker 1: people do to people of color, to exclude us, to 335 00:23:54,876 --> 00:23:56,996 Speaker 1: put us in a ghetto, to keep us away from 336 00:23:56,996 --> 00:24:00,556 Speaker 1: all the good things for themselves inside. I want to 337 00:24:00,556 --> 00:24:03,916 Speaker 1: just ask the question, what are the costs of segregation? 338 00:24:04,076 --> 00:24:07,276 Speaker 1: To our entire society, and yes to white people too. 339 00:24:08,036 --> 00:24:10,916 Speaker 1: There were a few big things that I discovered that 340 00:24:10,996 --> 00:24:12,876 Speaker 1: helped me sort of pull together the whole picture. The 341 00:24:12,956 --> 00:24:15,596 Speaker 1: first is a study that was done by the Urban 342 00:24:15,636 --> 00:24:19,196 Speaker 1: Institute and the Metropolitan Planning Council in Chicago, my hometown, 343 00:24:19,356 --> 00:24:23,876 Speaker 1: one of the most segregated cities in the country, to 344 00:24:23,876 --> 00:24:26,916 Speaker 1: try to equip people who wanted to do something about integration, 345 00:24:26,996 --> 00:24:29,396 Speaker 1: who are often getting pushback right like, oh, how much 346 00:24:29,436 --> 00:24:31,996 Speaker 1: is it going to cost us to cite affordable housing 347 00:24:32,036 --> 00:24:34,356 Speaker 1: in these richer neighborhoods. What's the cost of changing the 348 00:24:34,396 --> 00:24:38,436 Speaker 1: status quo? And they came up with astronomical figures of 349 00:24:38,796 --> 00:24:45,036 Speaker 1: lost lives, lost wealth, lost income, lost education because of segregation. 350 00:24:45,996 --> 00:24:49,916 Speaker 1: And then I had this kind of common sense understanding 351 00:24:50,236 --> 00:24:54,236 Speaker 1: that white people who are paying a lot to get 352 00:24:54,276 --> 00:24:57,516 Speaker 1: the suburban house in the quote unquote good school district 353 00:24:57,716 --> 00:25:01,196 Speaker 1: are actually like laying out cash in order to avoid 354 00:25:01,556 --> 00:25:04,756 Speaker 1: what racism has wrought on public education, in order to 355 00:25:04,876 --> 00:25:08,876 Speaker 1: avoid the neighborhoods that have too many black and brown 356 00:25:09,116 --> 00:25:11,356 Speaker 1: people and where the test scores are not as high 357 00:25:11,396 --> 00:25:14,996 Speaker 1: as they are in these white segregated schools. So I thought, okay, 358 00:25:15,036 --> 00:25:17,716 Speaker 1: we can actually calculate that, oh, it's twenty something thousand 359 00:25:17,756 --> 00:25:19,836 Speaker 1: more dollars short a house that's the same as a 360 00:25:19,876 --> 00:25:23,836 Speaker 1: house in a school district that's slightly less highly rated. 361 00:25:24,356 --> 00:25:29,036 Speaker 1: But then I dug even deeper and it became clear that, 362 00:25:29,116 --> 00:25:32,476 Speaker 1: in fact, not only are white families often paying in 363 00:25:32,556 --> 00:25:35,876 Speaker 1: order to segregate their children out of a sense that 364 00:25:35,876 --> 00:25:38,956 Speaker 1: that is somehow going to be better for them, but 365 00:25:39,116 --> 00:25:42,516 Speaker 1: it's not better for them. YEA. The Brown versus Board 366 00:25:42,516 --> 00:25:46,116 Speaker 1: of Education decision should have been when we stopped this madness. 367 00:25:46,236 --> 00:25:48,876 Speaker 1: That should have been where the story of segregation and 368 00:25:49,076 --> 00:25:52,476 Speaker 1: education ended, and of course it wasn't. I look at 369 00:25:52,516 --> 00:25:55,676 Speaker 1: a part of the very famous social science appendix that 370 00:25:55,836 --> 00:26:00,196 Speaker 1: was presented to the justices to make the case that 371 00:26:00,596 --> 00:26:07,436 Speaker 1: segregation communicates negative stories two black children about their own 372 00:26:07,476 --> 00:26:10,836 Speaker 1: self worth, and that was what the justices invoked in 373 00:26:10,876 --> 00:26:14,956 Speaker 1: their decision. But there was another part of the appendix 374 00:26:15,636 --> 00:26:20,956 Speaker 1: that basically laid out the psychological harms of segregation to 375 00:26:21,196 --> 00:26:25,996 Speaker 1: white children, the moral disconnect, the ways in which being 376 00:26:26,036 --> 00:26:30,076 Speaker 1: taught to assign your worth based on something as shallow 377 00:26:30,116 --> 00:26:33,556 Speaker 1: as skin color was distorting to your personality and to 378 00:26:33,676 --> 00:26:36,756 Speaker 1: your sense of identity. Formation, the ways in which it 379 00:26:36,796 --> 00:26:40,236 Speaker 1: would create guilt feelings and then resentment, the ways that 380 00:26:40,236 --> 00:26:44,836 Speaker 1: it would lean you towards authoritarianism was actually in this appendix, 381 00:26:44,876 --> 00:26:47,556 Speaker 1: And I chuckle because nothing has changed, right, I mean, 382 00:26:47,596 --> 00:26:50,436 Speaker 1: it seems like they could be talking about today, and 383 00:26:50,476 --> 00:26:54,196 Speaker 1: so ultimately, for the justices not to rely on the 384 00:26:54,236 --> 00:26:57,476 Speaker 1: full weight of the evidence, the full story, I think 385 00:26:57,636 --> 00:27:01,876 Speaker 1: cost us something because by suggesting that it is only 386 00:27:01,916 --> 00:27:04,876 Speaker 1: bad for black children not to be with white children 387 00:27:05,156 --> 00:27:07,676 Speaker 1: and not bad for white children not to be with 388 00:27:07,716 --> 00:27:13,556 Speaker 1: black children, we've actually maintained the myth that white is better. 389 00:27:13,836 --> 00:27:17,596 Speaker 1: And it's that myth that is still operative today. And 390 00:27:17,636 --> 00:27:22,836 Speaker 1: there's just a body of evidence that shows diversity basically 391 00:27:22,876 --> 00:27:26,916 Speaker 1: makes white kids smarter, It makes them think with more 392 00:27:27,076 --> 00:27:30,996 Speaker 1: rigor and creative problem solving. It sort of puts them 393 00:27:31,116 --> 00:27:34,676 Speaker 1: on their game. And so these families that are sort 394 00:27:34,716 --> 00:27:38,876 Speaker 1: of chasing the lily white school districts are actually losing 395 00:27:38,956 --> 00:27:43,716 Speaker 1: out on the most powerful educational experience they could have, 396 00:27:44,236 --> 00:27:46,916 Speaker 1: which is the real gift, right. I think diversity is 397 00:27:46,916 --> 00:27:50,316 Speaker 1: America's superpower, and yet we so often don't tap into it. 398 00:27:51,196 --> 00:27:54,276 Speaker 1: You certainly have some white parents, just as you have 399 00:27:54,516 --> 00:28:00,916 Speaker 1: parents of color, who recognize that at an interpersonal, intercultural level, 400 00:28:01,076 --> 00:28:05,556 Speaker 1: they want their children to be exposed to difference and 401 00:28:06,036 --> 00:28:10,476 Speaker 1: they value that. They can't imagine raising an anti racist 402 00:28:10,636 --> 00:28:14,836 Speaker 1: child in a homogeneous setting. So it's fascinating that let's 403 00:28:14,836 --> 00:28:17,316 Speaker 1: say you don't care about any of them. All you 404 00:28:17,356 --> 00:28:22,036 Speaker 1: want is a child who's a great student. The studies 405 00:28:22,076 --> 00:28:26,916 Speaker 1: show that too, right. But finally, let's turn to the solution, 406 00:28:27,716 --> 00:28:34,876 Speaker 1: what you call the solidarity dividend. So in discovering that racism, 407 00:28:34,956 --> 00:28:37,836 Speaker 1: more than any other factor, is what is keeping Americans 408 00:28:37,836 --> 00:28:43,196 Speaker 1: from having nice things, the flip side, it actually becomes 409 00:28:43,356 --> 00:28:48,596 Speaker 1: easier to conceive of progress on all of these big 410 00:28:48,756 --> 00:28:53,876 Speaker 1: economic and social challenges if we come together across lines 411 00:28:53,916 --> 00:28:58,276 Speaker 1: of race. And that's what I began calling the solidarity divodend. 412 00:28:58,316 --> 00:29:02,716 Speaker 1: It's all these gains that we can unlock by coming 413 00:29:02,756 --> 00:29:06,716 Speaker 1: together to find solutions to our common problems. Things like 414 00:29:07,036 --> 00:29:12,476 Speaker 1: higher wages, better rates of unionization, more healthcare, cleaner air, 415 00:29:12,916 --> 00:29:16,436 Speaker 1: better funded schools. These are all the things that we 416 00:29:16,516 --> 00:29:20,876 Speaker 1: are denying ourselves as a people basically because of the 417 00:29:20,916 --> 00:29:23,836 Speaker 1: belief in this zero some racial hierarchy, and because of 418 00:29:23,876 --> 00:29:28,716 Speaker 1: the phenomenon of seeing public goods wier in this country 419 00:29:28,756 --> 00:29:34,236 Speaker 1: because support has been degraded as the public has grown 420 00:29:34,276 --> 00:29:37,076 Speaker 1: to include more people of color, whom white people have 421 00:29:37,156 --> 00:29:40,396 Speaker 1: been taught to disdain and distrust. That's how we got 422 00:29:40,476 --> 00:29:43,236 Speaker 1: here from having the greatest middle class the world I've 423 00:29:43,236 --> 00:29:45,916 Speaker 1: ever seen, to being one of the most unequal societies 424 00:29:45,956 --> 00:29:49,236 Speaker 1: in the world. But if we refill the pool of 425 00:29:49,316 --> 00:29:52,676 Speaker 1: public goods for everyone, that's a solidarity dividend. And the 426 00:29:52,676 --> 00:29:55,876 Speaker 1: only way we can get there is through cross racial solidarity. 427 00:29:56,236 --> 00:29:58,836 Speaker 1: I think in many ways it is our destiny in 428 00:29:58,836 --> 00:30:01,116 Speaker 1: this country. Right as we quickly become a country with 429 00:30:01,196 --> 00:30:07,996 Speaker 1: no racial majority, we can dismantle the lie of racial hierarchy. 430 00:30:08,076 --> 00:30:10,316 Speaker 1: And when we do that, when we stand up for 431 00:30:10,356 --> 00:30:14,996 Speaker 1: one another, when we see that there's a fire raging 432 00:30:15,076 --> 00:30:18,396 Speaker 1: in black communities, and we don't think, well, that's something 433 00:30:18,396 --> 00:30:21,316 Speaker 1: wrong with black people, but rather we say, let's fix 434 00:30:21,436 --> 00:30:25,276 Speaker 1: that problem. Now, we get a solidarity dividend of the 435 00:30:25,356 --> 00:30:29,716 Speaker 1: United States having the best in the world coronavirus response. Right, 436 00:30:29,916 --> 00:30:31,836 Speaker 1: we could have done that. We were sort of set 437 00:30:31,956 --> 00:30:34,596 Speaker 1: up to do that with all of our resources, all 438 00:30:34,596 --> 00:30:37,396 Speaker 1: of that, and yet so many of the ways that 439 00:30:37,436 --> 00:30:40,516 Speaker 1: we failed, and that we had one of the worst 440 00:30:40,876 --> 00:30:45,476 Speaker 1: certainly the worst in the advanced economy world was because 441 00:30:45,996 --> 00:30:49,396 Speaker 1: of racism and because of the public goods that we 442 00:30:49,476 --> 00:30:53,316 Speaker 1: don't have. You know, we could have had a society 443 00:30:53,356 --> 00:30:57,156 Speaker 1: where the response was, let us move towards one another, 444 00:30:57,836 --> 00:31:00,076 Speaker 1: let us protect one another, let us make sure that 445 00:31:00,116 --> 00:31:04,676 Speaker 1: the essential workers have everything they need in order to 446 00:31:04,796 --> 00:31:08,796 Speaker 1: still work, and let us pay people to stay home, 447 00:31:09,236 --> 00:31:13,116 Speaker 1: right exactly other countries exactly when we weren't really equipped 448 00:31:13,156 --> 00:31:14,836 Speaker 1: for that. And I think a large part of the 449 00:31:14,836 --> 00:31:17,356 Speaker 1: reason why we weren't was because of racist and difference, 450 00:31:17,756 --> 00:31:20,516 Speaker 1: because of the racist draining of public goods and public 451 00:31:20,556 --> 00:31:25,716 Speaker 1: services and benefits, and because we have this fractured political 452 00:31:25,916 --> 00:31:30,836 Speaker 1: debate which is so rooted in racist fear mongering and scapegoating. 453 00:31:31,356 --> 00:31:33,956 Speaker 1: And so when I say that we can have a 454 00:31:34,036 --> 00:31:39,596 Speaker 1: solidarity dividend in this country, it's that we can have frankly, 455 00:31:40,236 --> 00:31:42,156 Speaker 1: a little bit of what we're seeing right now in 456 00:31:42,236 --> 00:31:47,556 Speaker 1: our politics. We had a multi racial, anti racist majority 457 00:31:47,596 --> 00:31:51,636 Speaker 1: that voted in a change in our politics in November, 458 00:31:51,676 --> 00:31:55,596 Speaker 1: and then waiting through high water to vote in January 459 00:31:55,676 --> 00:31:58,956 Speaker 1: to give a slim majority to a party that was 460 00:31:59,036 --> 00:32:05,556 Speaker 1: promising to address the challenges of inequality. The pandemic, corruption, 461 00:32:05,596 --> 00:32:10,236 Speaker 1: our democracy, climate change, and racial justice out of the gate, 462 00:32:10,916 --> 00:32:14,996 Speaker 1: a rescue plan that cuts child poverty in half, to 463 00:32:15,036 --> 00:32:18,556 Speaker 1: remind us that black, white, and brown poverty is a 464 00:32:18,556 --> 00:32:24,636 Speaker 1: policy choice. That's a solidarity dividend, real family leave and childcare, 465 00:32:24,916 --> 00:32:29,836 Speaker 1: which was defeated in the early nineteen seventies because of 466 00:32:29,876 --> 00:32:33,516 Speaker 1: the fears of integration. Having that in this country, finally, 467 00:32:33,916 --> 00:32:40,516 Speaker 1: that's a solidarity dividend. How does someone carry out the 468 00:32:40,676 --> 00:32:45,236 Speaker 1: solidarity dividend and refill the pools? Yeah, I think it's 469 00:32:45,276 --> 00:32:48,356 Speaker 1: so important. I mean, I'm a policy wank, that's been 470 00:32:48,436 --> 00:32:51,036 Speaker 1: my career, But after the journey to write to some 471 00:32:51,196 --> 00:32:54,236 Speaker 1: of us, I'm more and more in love with the 472 00:32:54,476 --> 00:33:00,236 Speaker 1: transformative power of organizing. And thankfully we are in a 473 00:33:00,316 --> 00:33:03,556 Speaker 1: sort of boom time for organizing. People have taken action 474 00:33:03,876 --> 00:33:06,916 Speaker 1: through the Trump era and through this pandemic, more so 475 00:33:07,036 --> 00:33:10,036 Speaker 1: than in generations, and so we have to keep going. 476 00:33:10,996 --> 00:33:16,676 Speaker 1: I do believe that finding an issue is really a 477 00:33:16,716 --> 00:33:19,676 Speaker 1: good way to start. Pick a local issue that means 478 00:33:19,676 --> 00:33:24,596 Speaker 1: a lot, and work with your neighbors to change the 479 00:33:24,676 --> 00:33:28,196 Speaker 1: rules to allow for more opportunity for everyone. I don't 480 00:33:28,196 --> 00:33:30,636 Speaker 1: want people to be stuck reading our books right. I 481 00:33:30,676 --> 00:33:33,516 Speaker 1: want people to read the books, close them, take action, 482 00:33:33,636 --> 00:33:36,756 Speaker 1: pick up the phone, go online, pick up a clipboard, 483 00:33:36,796 --> 00:33:39,516 Speaker 1: and go next door. Right. I think that is where 484 00:33:39,556 --> 00:33:45,116 Speaker 1: people ultimately have the most enduring consciousness change. I'm reminded 485 00:33:45,156 --> 00:33:47,836 Speaker 1: of a woman whom I met in Kansas City named 486 00:33:47,876 --> 00:33:50,956 Speaker 1: Bridget who is a lifelong fast food worker, minimum wage worker, 487 00:33:51,236 --> 00:33:56,316 Speaker 1: white woman who believe the anti immigrant, anti black narratives 488 00:33:56,356 --> 00:33:59,796 Speaker 1: that her community and her family had believed and taught 489 00:33:59,796 --> 00:34:04,076 Speaker 1: to her, the kind of right wing fear mongering and scapegoating. 490 00:34:04,636 --> 00:34:07,796 Speaker 1: And she also believed that her own labor was never 491 00:34:07,836 --> 00:34:10,076 Speaker 1: going to be worth more than twenty five an hour. 492 00:34:10,316 --> 00:34:13,596 Speaker 1: But it was when she was approached to join an 493 00:34:13,676 --> 00:34:16,436 Speaker 1: organizing meeting with the Fight for Fifteen in the Union 494 00:34:17,236 --> 00:34:20,516 Speaker 1: that she saw a Latina woman stand up and talk 495 00:34:20,556 --> 00:34:23,276 Speaker 1: about her own life, you know, having three kids in 496 00:34:23,356 --> 00:34:26,116 Speaker 1: a house of bad plumbing, and she said, I saw 497 00:34:26,196 --> 00:34:30,196 Speaker 1: myself in her, and something switched and through the act 498 00:34:30,236 --> 00:34:33,556 Speaker 1: of organizing for something that would lift both of them, 499 00:34:34,156 --> 00:34:37,036 Speaker 1: and she was able to put away those racist ideas. 500 00:34:37,316 --> 00:34:39,476 Speaker 1: And as she says to me, now it's not a 501 00:34:39,476 --> 00:34:41,636 Speaker 1: matter of us versus them. For us to come up, 502 00:34:41,716 --> 00:34:43,716 Speaker 1: they've got to come up. As long as we're divided, 503 00:34:43,756 --> 00:34:47,116 Speaker 1: we're conquered. She says racism is bad for white people too, 504 00:34:47,196 --> 00:34:49,436 Speaker 1: because it keeps us divided from our black and brown 505 00:34:49,476 --> 00:34:53,716 Speaker 1: brothers and sisters. That consciousness change for a white woman 506 00:34:53,756 --> 00:34:56,116 Speaker 1: who should have firmly been in the sort of Trump camp, 507 00:34:56,716 --> 00:34:59,316 Speaker 1: comes from organizing. And that's what I think we need 508 00:34:59,356 --> 00:35:03,396 Speaker 1: to do all across this country. Precisely. I could not 509 00:35:03,636 --> 00:35:07,996 Speaker 1: agree more to echo. As they would say in the sixties, 510 00:35:08,036 --> 00:35:11,716 Speaker 1: to those who were just reading and learning, they would say, 511 00:35:11,716 --> 00:35:14,556 Speaker 1: stop being those armchair radicals. Who needs you to get 512 00:35:14,636 --> 00:35:18,756 Speaker 1: up and fight and organize. Thank you so much for 513 00:35:18,796 --> 00:35:21,156 Speaker 1: your brilliance, for your work, for your book to some 514 00:35:21,356 --> 00:35:25,356 Speaker 1: of us, and for taking some time to join this community. 515 00:35:25,676 --> 00:35:34,396 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you. Abel. The zero sub myth claims 516 00:35:34,476 --> 00:35:38,276 Speaker 1: that progress for people of color means a loss for 517 00:35:38,356 --> 00:35:41,716 Speaker 1: white people, as Heather rights in the sum of us. 518 00:35:42,836 --> 00:35:45,796 Speaker 1: This is the fable that racist power has pedaled for 519 00:35:45,916 --> 00:35:49,396 Speaker 1: centuries before and after the Civil War. It was the 520 00:35:49,516 --> 00:35:53,796 Speaker 1: fable that the free soilers and factory owners alike told 521 00:35:53,876 --> 00:35:57,756 Speaker 1: white workers in both the North and the Sound and 522 00:35:57,916 --> 00:36:01,996 Speaker 1: Tredegar iron works ended up producing over half of the 523 00:36:02,116 --> 00:36:06,716 Speaker 1: armament that was used during the Civil War by the Confederacy. 524 00:36:07,116 --> 00:36:10,356 Speaker 1: We lost more than six hundred in lives during the 525 00:36:10,436 --> 00:36:16,236 Speaker 1: Civil War, more American lives than any other war in history. 526 00:36:16,396 --> 00:36:19,916 Speaker 1: When we buy into the zero sum, we all lose, 527 00:36:20,636 --> 00:36:23,916 Speaker 1: just like the white workers who struck at Tredegar Iron 528 00:36:23,956 --> 00:36:28,356 Speaker 1: Works in eighteen forty seven lost. But when we change 529 00:36:28,396 --> 00:36:34,036 Speaker 1: the game in working coalition, we all win together. Yet 530 00:36:34,116 --> 00:36:39,556 Speaker 1: racial division continues to depress and deplete us. We can 531 00:36:39,596 --> 00:36:43,676 Speaker 1: come together across our racial, cultural, and historical differences in 532 00:36:43,876 --> 00:36:47,796 Speaker 1: cash in on our solidarity dividend, as Heather calls it, 533 00:36:48,836 --> 00:36:53,196 Speaker 1: and the dividend pays off in higher wages, better housing, 534 00:36:53,276 --> 00:36:57,836 Speaker 1: quality schools, cleaner air, safer neighborhoods, and elected officials who 535 00:36:57,836 --> 00:37:03,916 Speaker 1: are responsible to us and not special interests. Tangible benefits 536 00:37:03,956 --> 00:37:08,676 Speaker 1: that improve the lives of black, Indigenous, latinas in Asian 537 00:37:08,716 --> 00:37:14,876 Speaker 1: people also improve the lives of white people. My conversation 538 00:37:14,956 --> 00:37:18,436 Speaker 1: with Heather showed us how we can each contribute to 539 00:37:18,476 --> 00:37:22,716 Speaker 1: the solidarity dividend and why the zero sum fable has 540 00:37:22,796 --> 00:37:27,036 Speaker 1: such a deep hold on our national consciousness. We should 541 00:37:27,036 --> 00:37:32,436 Speaker 1: throw our political weight behind policymakers and policies that universalize 542 00:37:32,916 --> 00:37:37,676 Speaker 1: the essentials of life, like basic income, housing and healthcare. 543 00:37:38,196 --> 00:37:41,756 Speaker 1: But that's only the beginning. We must target our resources 544 00:37:41,796 --> 00:37:46,116 Speaker 1: to create equity between groups. We need equitable policies that 545 00:37:46,316 --> 00:37:49,876 Speaker 1: ensure the groups with the greatest needs are provided the most. 546 00:37:50,756 --> 00:37:54,236 Speaker 1: We must stop battling against each other and start battling 547 00:37:54,396 --> 00:38:08,876 Speaker 1: against racism altogether. We must be anti racist. Be Anti 548 00:38:09,356 --> 00:38:12,356 Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia. It is 549 00:38:12,356 --> 00:38:15,036 Speaker 1: written and hosted by doctor Ibram x Kindy and produced 550 00:38:15,036 --> 00:38:19,476 Speaker 1: by Alexandra Garratton with associate producer Brittany Brown. Our engineer 551 00:38:19,516 --> 00:38:22,316 Speaker 1: has been Talliday, Our editors Julia Barton and our shore 552 00:38:22,356 --> 00:38:26,036 Speaker 1: runner Sasha Matthias. Our executive producers are Onlie Tam Mullat 553 00:38:26,076 --> 00:38:29,036 Speaker 1: and Mia Lobell. Many thanks to Timmy Win and doctor 554 00:38:29,076 --> 00:38:31,516 Speaker 1: Heather Sandford at the Center for Anside Racist Research at 555 00:38:31,516 --> 00:38:34,356 Speaker 1: Boston University for all of their help at Pushkin. Thanks 556 00:38:34,356 --> 00:38:38,036 Speaker 1: to Heather Fame, Carli Migliori, John Schnarz, and Jacob Wiseberg. 557 00:38:38,556 --> 00:38:40,796 Speaker 1: You can find doctor Kendy on Twitter at d r 558 00:38:40,876 --> 00:38:44,636 Speaker 1: Ebrahm and on Instagram at Ebram xk. You can find 559 00:38:44,636 --> 00:38:47,636 Speaker 1: Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods. You can 560 00:38:47,676 --> 00:38:50,476 Speaker 1: sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To 561 00:38:50,516 --> 00:38:53,276 Speaker 1: find more Pushkin podcast, listen on the iHeart Radio app, 562 00:38:53,436 --> 00:38:55,956 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or whatever you'd like to listen