1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:22,240 Speaker 1: Body backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Your parent that works hard, 2 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: I mean weary to the bone hard, day after day, 3 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: to try to make a life for yourself. You finally 4 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: reached that point in your life where you're you're rolling 5 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: through your sixties and you think that all is right 6 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: with the world. You've provided a home, you've got your 7 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 1: kids kind of in a position where they can take 8 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: care of themselves and you want to enjoy life. But 9 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: one of the oldest motives in the world begins to 10 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,959 Speaker 1: kind of sneak in to your family circle. They used 11 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: to refer to it as the green eyed monster her 12 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: it's the idea of greed and jealousy, wanting to possess 13 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: those things that you haven't worked for throughout your life, 14 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: but you want them given to you and you want 15 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 1: them given to you now, even at the expense of 16 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: the ones that you supposedly love. Today we're gonna talk 17 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: about a staged murder suicide in McLean, Virginia. I'm Joseph 18 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is body backs. Jackie Howard, executive 19 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 1: producer for crime stories with Nancy Grace, is joining me. Jackie, 20 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, when you walk onto a scene 21 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: where you've got more than one body, there's always this 22 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: little voice in the back of your head as an 23 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: investigator where you're thinking, you know, I gotta make sure 24 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: that I get this right, because as bad as homicide 25 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: is in its singular form, when you've got two people 26 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: that have died, you know that you're walking into an 27 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: environment that has just been occupied by fear and total 28 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: violence that someone would bring about the deaths of two individuals, 29 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: and you begin to think about all kinds of things this. 30 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 1: This is suicide? Is this homicide? Is this a double homicide? 31 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: Do you have a madman running around out in the 32 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 1: neighborhood somewhere? Because you know the public, they hear this, 33 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: it gets out there. They want to know that they 34 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:37,119 Speaker 1: feel safe. And in McLean Virginia, you know, you it's 35 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: not known for a huge crime right there. Now people 36 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: want to feel safe and when the police rolled up 37 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: to this one point three million dollar home, I have 38 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 1: to imagine they were kind of scratching their head. Pamela Hargan, 39 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: as you said, Joe was a very successful woman. She 40 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: and her three daughters lived in a one point three 41 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: million dollar mansion. Now she was a ingle mom as 42 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: her daughters grew up, Megan, Ashley and Helen. There was 43 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: a fifteen year difference between Helen and Megan, the oldest 44 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:14,839 Speaker 1: and the youngest. When police arrived on the scene, they 45 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: found Pamela Hargan, sixty three, dead in the laundry room, 46 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: and then they found Helen again, twenty three, the youngest, 47 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: in her bedroom, also deceased. When police arrived on the scene, Joe, 48 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: they immediately knew and recognized that this was a staged scene. 49 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: How well you begin to try to assess the environment 50 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: in which the bodies are found in? Is Everything appeared 51 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: to be consistent with what is being portrayed before you? 52 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: There was an old forensic pathologist that I used to 53 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: work with and he had this kind of saying that 54 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: he would say, and it comes off of Madison Avenue. 55 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: He would say we would be in the Morgan, he 56 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: would you know, we'd be standing over body to do 57 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: the examination. He says we need to make sure that 58 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: everything is as advertised, and I've always kind of kept 59 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: that in the back of my mind. It's one of 60 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: those little phrases that helps me stay focused. You know, 61 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: when I was certainly conducting an investigation as a collection 62 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: of investigators were a bunch of doubting Thomas's. You have 63 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: to prove it to us in order for us to 64 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 1: buy it, and I think that that's probably what the 65 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: police were thinking. It's it's kind of an interesting thing 66 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: when you begin to think that mom is found in 67 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: one area of the House and she has been shot 68 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: in the head. There's multiple casings, spent casings which are 69 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: twenty two caliber, and twenty two caliber are one of 70 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: the very smallest calibers that you can acquire that are 71 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: in common usage. There's other things that are out there, 72 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: and we've talked about that before on bodybacks, but gets 73 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: one of the smaller calibers that's out there. However, it 74 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: is lethal and it is highly effective and, as it 75 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: turned out, these rounds had been fired from a rifle 76 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: and not handgun, you know, which you know there are 77 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: people that certainly do take their own lives with rifles. 78 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: I've seen it over and over again because when many 79 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: homes are going to find that people will have a 80 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: small caliber rifle like this for what they call varmant 81 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: hunting or just, you know, in home protection. It's easy 82 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: to wield, it doesn't take a lot of strength. But 83 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: you know, back to the bodies. Mom was found in 84 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 1: one area of the House and then the daughter, Helen, 85 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: was found in another location. In my experience with murder suicides, 86 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: and this is not always the case, all right, but 87 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 1: just hear me out, in many cases with murder suicides 88 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: you will find individuals that when they commit the murder, 89 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: they immediately take the weapon and turn it on themselves 90 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 1: and then shoot themselves. And in this particular case that's 91 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 1: not what they were seeing. So automatically you're going to 92 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: think that something is wrong here. Why would she be 93 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: in another location of the home? And so that begins 94 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: the wheels to begin to spend and I think that 95 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: probably what they were looking at also were the injuries. 96 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: She was found in her bedroom with the butt of 97 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: the weapon wedged, as the police say, between her feet 98 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: and the muzzle of the weapon resting against her abdomen. 99 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 1: And for them this seemed rather a typical you know, 100 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: as they began to dig deeper into this case, a 101 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: big clue would have to be the location of that 102 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: rifle in Helen's bedroom. As you said, it was wedged 103 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: between her legs. First thing I wanted to know. I'm 104 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: learning from you Joe, is where the wound is, in 105 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: the abdomen, because that's where the muzzle of the gun was. 106 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: And then we find out that her wound was not 107 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: in the abdomen. and was she wearing her shoes? Because 108 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: if she had done this, more than likely, considering where 109 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: the gun ended up, she would have had to have 110 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: use her feet. That's one of the things that that 111 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: you want to look for, and I know, I know 112 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: what you're going for here. Was the trigger mechanism of 113 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: the weapon actually actuated by utilizing toe? Because when you 114 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: think about if somebody is going to inflict a self 115 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: inflicted wound with a long arm, which our shoulder fired arm, 116 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: which this rifle is, you have to place the butt 117 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: of the stock into your shoulder and pull the trigger 118 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: with your hand being clasped adjacent to forward of the 119 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: butt and actuating the trigger with your finger. That's gonna 120 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: be hard to do for certain people, depending upon their 121 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: arm length. That's one of the reasons at autopsy it's 122 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: a good idea to always measure the arms. will do 123 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: it from shoulder to the tips of the fingers and 124 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: from the the elbow, or what's called the a C F, 125 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: the ant cubital fossil, which is essentially just a fancy 126 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: term for the bend in your arm, to the tips 127 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: of the fingers and also to the thumb, you know, 128 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: because you can manipulate a weapon with the thumb as well. 129 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: But what kind of turns this whole thing around is 130 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: that when the police began to examine Helen's body and, 131 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: I would imagine, the Emmy that was at the scene, 132 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 1: they noticed something odd about her wound. Her wound was 133 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: not in the abdomen. The muzzle was merely resting against 134 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: her abdomen. The police had stated that the actual gunshot 135 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: wound was to the top of her head. Now that's 136 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: very difficult to do, particularly given the stature of an individual, 137 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: particularly a female, whose arms tend to be a bit 138 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: shorter than a male. Do they have the arm strength, 139 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: upper body strength, in order to hold the weapon, in 140 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: order to facilitate that? And then you have to account 141 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: for overall length in order to pull the trigger. Can 142 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: you actually imagine, can anyone actually imagine, what kind of 143 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: contortion is you would have to be in order to 144 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: place the muzzle of a rifle adjacent to the top 145 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: of your head and then in some way attempt to 146 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: pull the trigger with even your toe or your thumb 147 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: or maybe an index finger. I think that it would 148 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: be very difficult. Now there have been cases where people 149 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: have used items such as paintsticks. I've had a couple 150 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: of cases involved, well, one case involving paintstick, where the 151 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: paintstick is actually used to to press the trigger in 152 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 1: order to actuate the weapon, but there's no evidence of 153 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: that in this case. I've also had cases where individuals 154 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: have rigged triggers with strings and ropes and those sorts 155 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,079 Speaker 1: of things in order to pull it, but there has 156 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: to be a lot of thought that goes into that 157 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: in order to facilitate that and make that happen, and 158 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: in this case there was no evidence of that. And 159 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: let's be realistic, Joe, just the dynamics of gravity in itself, 160 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: it would have had to have been a one in 161 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: a million even if you had tried to kill yourself 162 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: holding the gun. I mean just let's walk through this, 163 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: and you're laying on the bed. You'RE gonna shoot yourself 164 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: in the top of the head with a rifle, so 165 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: you're trying to figure out how to hold it to 166 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: get it done, and when you actually activate the trigger, 167 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: it's a one in a million shot that that gun 168 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: is actually going to fall directly between your legs laying 169 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: on the bed. Gravity just doesn't work that way most 170 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: of the time. That constant force in nature which were 171 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: all subject to, and plays a big part in death investigation, 172 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 1: is in fact gravity that's going to dictate everything that occurs. 173 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: You know, because at the close of the day, when 174 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:05,719 Speaker 1: you're deceased, you are your body. Let me be very 175 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: careful in saying that. Your body is now completely subject 176 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: two all of the forces of nature that are impacting 177 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: every other inanimate object in your environment. You know, whether 178 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 1: it's a chair or a shoe or, you know, a 179 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: weapon or your body. You become literally you know. That's 180 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: where that you know that term that is used in 181 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 1: our vernacular over and over again, called dead weight. If 182 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,239 Speaker 1: no one has ever attempted to carry a deceased individual, 183 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: to move a deceased individual, you can't fully appreciate that 184 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: term because people, when they're alive, when you're carrying them, 185 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: they kind of help you, they kind of give you 186 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 1: an assist. But with dead weight, you've got the human 187 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: body is so oddly distributed with where weight is distributed 188 00:11:55,200 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: throughout the body. That gravity is going to dictate where 189 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: the body comes to rest and certainly it's going to 190 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: impact where the weapon is going to come to rest. 191 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: So the fact that she was in this position, given 192 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: the evidence that you have initially is that the gunshot wound, 193 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: the G S W is, in the top of the head. 194 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: You know, it gives you pause as an investigator. And 195 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: one one other things that's kind of very telling here, 196 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 1: I think, is you know, when the police initially released 197 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 1: information from the scene about this case, they used the 198 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: term murder suicide. Okay, and then you know, as you know, 199 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,839 Speaker 1: time goes by you can see them saying and press 200 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: releases that well, the investigation is ongoing, they're taking a 201 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: longer look at this and they've got other information coming 202 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: in and whatnot. But you know who never said that? 203 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: Was the M e. The M E had stated that 204 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: analysts manner of death was a homicide. But here's what's key. 205 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: The M E did not say, I did not say, 206 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: that Helen's manner of death suicide. They initially left the 207 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: things undetermined. So that tells me that when they received 208 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 1: these bodies at the Mork and they began to do 209 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: the examination, the m e began to do a very 210 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: close look or give Helen's body a very close look. 211 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: They were able to determine that gunshot wound that has 212 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: been alleged to have been self inflicted. It didn't marry 213 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 1: up with the things that we look for and I 214 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: would imagine that there is going to be evidence relative 215 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:50,199 Speaker 1: to the distribution of powder. Perhaps that is the unburned 216 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: powder that is emanating from the end of that muzzle 217 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: when the weapon inspired. My suspicion is that they saw 218 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 1: something that gave them an indication that there was some 219 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: range of distance between the end of the muzzle and 220 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 1: the top of the head. Because here's the fact that 221 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: it's really hard to escape. If you investigate suicides, and 222 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: I'd like to just kind of stop here and tell 223 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: people that in the medical legal world we investigate more 224 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: suicides than we do homicides. If you watch the media, 225 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: think that everything is a homicide. Homicides are kind of 226 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: they're on the low end as far as the number 227 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: of those that we actually look at. Suicides generally are 228 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: going to outpace homicides two to one, in some cases, 229 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: deepend upon where you are, three to one. So you're 230 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: you're looking at a lot more suicides and you begin 231 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: to get kind of a feel form and the things 232 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: that you're looking for is as as tells, if you will. 233 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: And with a long arm like this, when you take 234 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: a weapon and you place it in a specific location, 235 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: it's going to be tightly pressed. Most suicide self inflicted 236 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: gunshot wounds. People are not wanting to miss. Okay, so 237 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: you will have like a hard what some people refer 238 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: to as a hard contact gunshot, one where you have 239 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: the muzzle in the muscle weapon, where it's tightly pressed 240 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: against the surface and the weapon is discharged into the body. 241 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: The more distance you get, remember what we talked about 242 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: length of arms and and being a shoulder fired arm. 243 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: You're having now, if you've got a gap in between 244 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: the target area and in the muzzle, you're again extending 245 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: out the distance that's involved here and the probability for 246 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: this happening. You talked about one in a million. It 247 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: goes up astronomically because we know that it's almost a 248 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: physical impossibility for this to have been a self inflicted 249 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: I think the MMY saw that. Do you have the 250 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: same kind of gunshot residue on your hands, whether it's 251 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: a long gun or a handgun. Yeah, you know, gunshot 252 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: residue is an interesting thing. First off, for these tests 253 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: they're not always you get what are called false positives 254 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: lots of times and they're not always absolute. I think 255 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,119 Speaker 1: that everybody looks that and says, Oh, there is no 256 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: no GSR gunshot residue, so that's definitive, or you know, 257 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: we have this gunshot residue and that is definitive and 258 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: it's not. There's no guarantee you're going to get a 259 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: positive hit every time. They did an interesting study many 260 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: years ago, I think, where Um, there was a gentleman 261 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: that they had used as kind of a test subject 262 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: for some of these g SR tests. Early on, when 263 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: people had begun to use these. Remember, years and years ago, 264 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: they used to use what's called a paraffin test. If 265 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: you can't imagine this, you put your hand down into 266 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: warm wax and they would peel that off. In the 267 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: wax would contain any kind of particular matter that was 268 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: still in the hands, and then they began to come 269 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: up with a chemical test for this and this one fellow, 270 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: I think, if I'm recalling this correctly, worked in a 271 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: munitions factory and they would get negative hits on him 272 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: and some of the other workers there. And that's kind 273 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: of an anecdotal story just to try to drive home 274 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: the point that you're not always going to find it, 275 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: but it is something that is swapped for at autopsy. 276 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: One of the reasons when you see bodies, many times 277 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: you'll see images of bodies and morgues and that sort 278 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: of thing, or maybe even it seems if you happen 279 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: to catch a glimpse of these they're the hands will 280 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: be backed, they'll be in paperbacks. You don't put them 281 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: in plastic because they begin to sweat and of course 282 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 1: that spoils things, but you'll see them wrapped in Brown 283 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: paper backs. And we do the gunshot residue at the 284 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: morgue and you're looking for two things. Looking for primer residue, 285 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: and primer is the little cap that's in the base 286 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: of the bullet. If you'll think about how the base 287 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: of a bullet looks, it kind of looks like a 288 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: like a bull's eye. However, this is a twenty two 289 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: caliber weapon. There's not a primary cap. It's a rim fire, 290 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: so that means that the prime or is going to 291 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: be around the edge so you're gonna look for primer, 292 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: which is more unstable chemically, but it creates this kind 293 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: of ferocious blast and that ignites the other substance, which 294 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: is propellant, and they both have very distinctive chemical signature. 295 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 1: So it's important to understand that when the weapon is discharged, 296 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 1: you're holding it in your hand as opposed to being 297 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: on the receiving end of the discharge of the weapon. 298 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 1: If you're holding it in the Crook of your hand, 299 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: you can get primer residue, saying between your thumb and 300 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: your index finger, and then coming out of the other 301 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: end you're gonna get propellant, which is, you know, the 302 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: gunpowder that's that's propelling the projectile out of the end 303 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: of the muzzle. So there's a couple of different things 304 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: you look for and at autopsy we take a lot 305 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: of time to try to be as careful as we 306 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: possibly can be, to swab the hands and you swab 307 00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: all over. You swap the back of the hand and 308 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 1: a palm and in between the webs of each one 309 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: of the fingers, you try to capture each one of 310 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: those areas and you do each hand separately and that 311 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: way you kind of got this control at this point 312 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: and you submit this test at state crime lab and 313 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: they'll come back and you know, tell you if it's yeah, 314 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: your nay, if it's there or not. It's not a 315 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: what's called a quantitative test. It's not. You know where 316 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: you apply the number to it. You just say thumbs up, 317 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 1: thumbs down. You know that it's there or isn't there, 318 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: and then they can tell you if it's primer or 319 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: propell it. And then you have the blood spatter pattern, 320 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: because if you look at killing yourself, at committing suicide 321 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: on a bed, then you would expect the majority of 322 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: the blood to be pulling underneath you and choaked into 323 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 1: the pillow or the mattress. Yet to a certain degree, 324 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 1: and again, there's not a one off for each one 325 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,239 Speaker 1: of these things. A lot of it's going to have 326 00:19:54,320 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: to do with, first off, where the round strikes the body. Okay, 327 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: so let's just say, and that's not the case in 328 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: this case, but with lots of self inflicted gunshot wounds 329 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 1: you'll have an oral gunshot wound where people will place 330 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: some muzzle into their into their mouth and pull the 331 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: trigger and if the round has sufficient energy, it will 332 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: burst out of the back of the head, okay, and 333 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: that creates a different type of dynamic relative to the 334 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 1: blood stained pattern that you're gonna have. And you can find, 335 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: you know, if, say, someone is seated upright, which you 336 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: get lots of times with the self inflicted oral gunshot wounds, 337 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: if they're up against a wall, for instance, which is, 338 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: you know, very convenient for the investigator, you can kind 339 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: of see this high velocity kind of staining that's going 340 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: on behind the wall and sometimes it will have almost 341 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: a fan like pattern to it, if you can imagine that. 342 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: And the droplets will be I like to refer to 343 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: them as almost histamine like, you know, like if you 344 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: think about spraying an aerosol canister on a mirror and 345 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 1: it gives you this tiny, tiny little droplets because of 346 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: the velocity. You only achieved that high velocity from gunshot wounds. Okay, 347 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 1: we rate these things relative to their velocity, high velocity, 348 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: medium velocity, low velocity, and one of the things that 349 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 1: you're looking for is that blast that you'll get has 350 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: enough power that is going to generate that fine little 351 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: particulate spray and then you know, you you have these 352 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: other things that will happen there's an infamous videotape of 353 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: Bud dwire that has floated around for years and years, 354 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: and he was the secretary of Treasury for the State 355 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,120 Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania and he took his life live on air 356 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: and people are it's a ghastly thing to to watch. 357 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 1: And but one of the interesting takeaways that you have 358 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: is the blood dynamic in that event, because he uses 359 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 1: a high caliber weapon that's in his mouth and you'll 360 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: have this initial blast, we have this kind of fine 361 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: particular spray. But afterwards, because it's an oral gunshot wound, 362 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: he's disrupted all of the structures within the hard palate, 363 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: which is the upper portion of the mouth, that bony 364 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: floor that we have in the skull up there, all 365 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: that's been fractured. You've got blood gushing out of his 366 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: mouth and out of his nose. Well, that blood pattern 367 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: will look completely different because it's a different dynamic. You've 368 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: got this kind of gravitational flow of blood that's pouring 369 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 1: out of his mouth and his nose. And what happens 370 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: in the instance when the thing is discharged? You get 371 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: that kind of it's almost like a bloody flashbulb going 372 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: off where it just kind of imparts to spine, Histaman 373 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: behind his head and you can see those two things 374 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: played out on camera, and that's what you get. And 375 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: the self inflicted gunshot ones. Many Times. A lot of 376 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: it is pended upon where the weapon is placed anatomically, 377 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: the load, the type of ammunition that is being used, 378 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: the angle at which this thing is being discharged, because 379 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: when you think about that projectile passing through the struck 380 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: sure's of the skull, there are some areas of the 381 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: skull that are more robust. Okay, if you think about, 382 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: for instance, that people will just kind of touch the 383 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: back of their head and you've got that knot on 384 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 1: the back of your head literally in your skull right there. 385 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: That's called the accipitabal protuberance and it's one of the 386 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: thicker areas. You also have it in the in the 387 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 1: frontal bone. You know where your eyebrows are, but if 388 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 1: you go around to the temporal area, you know just 389 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: kind of forward and above your ear, that Bony area 390 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: is very thin. So that will give way much easier 391 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 1: when you have the power of this weapon, as opposed 392 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: to something that's going to strike in the back of 393 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: the head. In the case of Helen, though, if you've 394 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,959 Speaker 1: got a gunshot wound whose entrance has been identified at 395 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: the top of the head, that trajectory is going downward. 396 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: So I would think that there will be less blood 397 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: staining when you begin to think about the dynamic of 398 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: that and it will remain kind of self contained in 399 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 1: that environment as opposed to where it was going up 400 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 1: and out. This case, Jackie, is so very complex because 401 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: of what had happened in this environment and the family 402 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: dynamic where you've got three kids, you've got a mom 403 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: that's at home in this beautiful, you know, million dollar 404 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 1: residents and the fact that the bodies are found in 405 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 1: these kind of desperate locations within the structure. In in 406 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,959 Speaker 1: my reading, and I found this quite fascinating, did you 407 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: note that Actually Fairfax County contacted a separate agency to 408 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: come in and actually do the crime scene reconstruction because 409 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: the data that was at the scene was so very 410 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: dents when it came to reconstructing this thing, they didn't 411 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 1: have enough manpower, apparently, to put their agency to work 412 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 1: on this. They had to give it to an outside 413 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 1: contractor in order to bring all of the pieces together 414 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: just to try to figure it out and of course, 415 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: eventually presented in court, as these specialists begin to recreate 416 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,640 Speaker 1: the scene that you're talking about, what did they discover 417 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: with the MOM Pamela's death? She was found in the 418 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: laundry room, shot multiple times in the head. When you're 419 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: in this environment, you know we can think about what 420 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: our own laundry rooms might look like. There's many people 421 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,439 Speaker 1: that keep them. Needs a pen. There's other folks that 422 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: you know that might have dirty laundry that's laying around. 423 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: For All I know, in my case I might have 424 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: clean laundry that's laying around that I haven't folded yet. 425 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: When you're working inside of environment like a laundry room, 426 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: if it's common in appearance to others, it's kind of 427 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: very tight spaces with little nooks and crannies where you 428 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: begin to think about, well, where do I need to 429 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: look for evidence, and the evidence that I'm seeing does 430 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: it actually marry up with the evidence that I have 431 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: on the bodies? Okay, the wounds, perhaps, the number of 432 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,199 Speaker 1: spent casings, all of those, and am I going to 433 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: be able to piece this back together? And it's a 434 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: very tight space. I've worked in environments like this where 435 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: you know you're in there with one other person in 436 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: a very tight location and you're trying to document everything 437 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 1: and many times what happens is you document position of 438 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,400 Speaker 1: the body, you document spent shell casings, which there were, 439 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: and they've never actually said how many, but there were 440 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: spent shell casings at the scene surrounding Pamela, the mother, 441 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 1: her body. And then, of course you've got no weapon 442 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: in there. So automatically, you know you're thinking, well, she's 443 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: been the victim of a homicide at this point, because 444 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: we don't have a weapon to indicate that this is 445 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 1: a suicide, that it's it's somewhere else. There's any number 446 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: of scenarios that they have to consider in this tight space. 447 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: First off, can someone actually access the interior of the 448 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: home through the laundry room, what they're calling the laundry room? 449 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: Is it a point where people would egress into and 450 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: out of? You know, many times people will have a 451 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: laundry room and a mud room together. That is the 452 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: place where you're gonna take off your dirty shoes and 453 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: do all that sort of thing. Is it a place 454 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: where somebody could have laid in wait and hidden and 455 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 1: taking the individual by surprise, they step out, they shoot 456 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: the individual one time they go down to the ground 457 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: and then they're going to have to readjust, that is 458 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: the perpetrator, so that after the individual, remember we talked 459 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: about gravity earlier, after the individual has fallen to the ground, 460 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: perpetrator stands over them with a long arm and fires 461 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 1: another round into the body. And that means that the 462 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 1: trajectories of these rounds are going to change. So you're 463 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: firing on a flat plane maybe initially, where you initially 464 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,120 Speaker 1: hit them, they go down to the ground and then 465 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: you move to a position of dominance over them and 466 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: fired down into the body another round, and all of 467 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: that has to be taken into consideration at that point 468 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: of time. That's when you see, you know, crimpsing reconstructionists, 469 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: who actually took over this case. We'll bring out laser 470 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: markers and you'll see it. Some agencies still use string 471 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 1: in order to pull what we call pulling trajectories, where 472 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: you go from the point where the round entered the 473 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 1: body and go back, pull the string back, or shoot 474 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: the laser back to a point of origin, if you will. 475 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: And again it's very difficult because it is keep using 476 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: its term, but that's the case. It's so very dynamic. 477 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: Jackie in this environment where you've got a lot of movement. 478 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: It's not like you've got a rifle that's being fired 479 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: into a static target and nothing is moving. You've got 480 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: all kinds of motion and movement that's going on in 481 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: this environment. If somebody is initially shot, they're not going 482 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: to instantaneously die per se. You might have an individual 483 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: that begins to seize or they're falling to the floor 484 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: and you can't anticipate what position they're gonna fall in, 485 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: and then you have to get into a position of dominance. 486 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: And the other thing that you have to begin to 487 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: think about what if the individual has never killed anybody before. 488 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: The line share of perpetrators out there have not engaged 489 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: in homicide before. So you've got that the factor into 490 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: you've got nerves at work, you've got anxiety at work, 491 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: you've got rage at work. So you throw all of 492 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: this into the mix and you try to take a snapshot. 493 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: If you're the crime scene reconstructionist, that is going to, 494 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: at at best, give you some kind of scientific point 495 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: of origin for a lot of these rounds, but sometimes 496 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: it's a guess at best. We've brought up gravity several 497 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: times today. I need to bring it up one more time. 498 00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: When you are shot in the head, most people, you know, 499 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: we rely on television. We you know, we thankfully don't 500 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: have a lot of experience with getting shot in real life. 501 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: So when you get shot in the head, are you 502 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: propelled backwards by the momentum of the shot? Do you 503 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: just drop where you are when your body is no 504 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: longer able to function? What happens? A lot of that 505 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: is going to be depended upon the position of the 506 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: victim relative to the end of the muzzle of the 507 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: weapon and kind of the orientation of the weapon. It's 508 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: not going to be something so grand and over the 509 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: top like you'll see. You know I'm always picking on 510 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: Hollywood on body backs, but you know they you see 511 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: people blown back in these, you know, things that are 512 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,959 Speaker 1: staged in entertainment world, and that's that's for the purpose 513 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: of making something up here very dramatic and there are 514 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: many accounts out there where people are shot and they're 515 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: not aware that they've been shot. If somebody takes a 516 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: shotgun blast the chest at close range, just the energy 517 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: transfer that you have alone is going to blow them 518 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: back a bit, but they're not going to do somersaults 519 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: all right at contrary to what you see on television 520 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: with around like this, where you're kind of taking unaware. 521 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: If an individual is, saying, shot from behind, so they're 522 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: shot in the back of the head, they're gonna take 523 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: that round and drop like dead weight at that moment 524 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: time to the ground. It doesn't mean that they die instantaneously. 525 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: If the brainstem is not clipped, you're still going to have, 526 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: you know, things like agonal respirations and the heart will 527 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: still be pumping for a little bit until you bleed out. 528 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: But I don't know that in the conscious mind that 529 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: they actually have an awareness that this has happened. So 530 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: you're not going to have an individual that is blown 531 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: out of the room just because they're shot. The idea 532 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: is to transfer the energy from that projectile into the 533 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: body and that energy disperses into the body and it 534 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: does massive destruction. Okay, and a lot of that is 535 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: deep upon the size the ammo that's being used and 536 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: the type of ammo that's being used. You know, you 537 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: hear a lot about people talking about ball around ammunition, 538 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: which is, you know, a ball around is just kind 539 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: of a catch all term that people use relative to 540 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: a lead core projectile. That's not modified necessarily any way. 541 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: But then you talk about hollow point, so called hollow 542 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: point ammunition, that it let's say you're firing a forty 543 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: caliber bullet that is hollow point and when it strikes 544 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: the target area, it expands out and it might expand 545 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: out to from say, forty caliber, which is point four. 546 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: Oh it might expand out to, say, point for eight. 547 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: So you get this expansion transfer of energy around, stops 548 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: in the body and they dropped. But with twenty two 549 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: caliber ammunition, most of the time it's going to be 550 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: standard ball ammunition where you've got this little bit of 551 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: lead that's transferring into the body and it's going to 552 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: transfer that amount of energy that is being generated from 553 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: the muzzle blast. It goes without saying as a death investigator, 554 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: and I know I can speak for myself, I can't 555 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: necessarily speak for my colleagues, but as a death investigator 556 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: I got quite jaded, particularly towards the end of my career. 557 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: I stopped trying to figure out necessarily in a broader sense, 558 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: what had happened. You know what the motivations were. One 559 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: of the issues that has always kind of left me 560 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: scratching my head many times. You Know Me, I hate 561 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: to ask the question why because there's generally not a 562 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: solid answer. No one will ever be satisfied with why. 563 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: But when you walk into an environment where a goodly 564 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: portion of a family, and in this case we're talking 565 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: about Pamela and Helen, are dead, their lives have been 566 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: snuffed out, I don't know if there is any other 567 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: question to ask. Why would you end their lives in 568 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 1: this environment where, seemingly, at least from my material since, 569 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 1: they had everything, and that may have been part of 570 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: the problem here, Joe. Ultimately police charged the eldest daughter, Megan, 571 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: and what was revealed was a jealousy with the younger 572 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: daughter over money. She felt like the younger daughter was 573 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,439 Speaker 1: being favored. We know that the youngest daughter, Helen, had 574 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: just graduated from college and Pamela had paid for a house. 575 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 1: Megan also wanted a new home. Megan and her daughter 576 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: had been living with Pamela for several years, even though 577 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: Megan was married and her husband lived in another state. 578 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: With the recognition when police came onto the scene that 579 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: this was staged, how did they start to look at 580 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: Megan and what were the clues? The first clue came 581 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: from the nine call, which came from Helen's boyfriend. She 582 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: called him and told him that Megan had killed their mother. 583 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:29,919 Speaker 1: So that was the first clue, even before they got 584 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: to the scene and could recognize it. That was a 585 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 1: big red flag. You're kidding, you're absolutely right. Much of 586 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 1: the time you're going to be speaking with the principles 587 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,359 Speaker 1: in the case, that is, the individuals that have direct involvement. 588 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: That kind of will give you an idea as an 589 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: investigator as to what is happening at a scene. You've 590 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 1: already processed the scene to certain degree and then things 591 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 1: don't necessarily make sense. Remember what we had said earlier 592 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 1: on that the police had thought for in the beginning 593 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 1: that this was a murder suicide. But you know, they 594 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: walk in and things don't seem to add up, you know, 595 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: to to what you would normally think about the physical 596 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: evidence that you're going to be finding that would make 597 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: it consistent with a murder suicide. You document the scene, 598 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 1: you go through everything that you have to go through 599 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: and then after you've left the scene and you begin 600 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 1: to do follow up investigation, you're canvassing. One of the 601 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: things that you know you canvass neighborhoods and all that 602 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,879 Speaker 1: sort of thing. And then you you look through, say, 603 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 1: for instance, phone contacts for victims and you see that 604 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: Helen has been in contact with her boyfriend and of 605 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 1: course he's the one that actually drew the police's attention 606 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: to this. When you sit down and you begin to 607 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:55,320 Speaker 1: question him, can you imagine their shock when he reveals 608 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: to them that, you know, I've got my girlfriend on 609 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 1: the phone, couldn't get her back on, and this is 610 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 1: after she tells me that her sister had had killed 611 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 1: her mother? And I can't imagine that the horror that 612 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: kind of ran through you know, that ran through him 613 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: when the phone went dead. I mean, that does sound 614 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 1: like something that that Hollywood would create. You know, it's 615 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: it's bone chilling, you know, when you begin to think 616 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 1: about it and you think about where does this information 617 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,800 Speaker 1: lead us? And they have to be very, very careful 618 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 1: at this point because they don't want to show their hand. 619 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,839 Speaker 1: You know, they've got some kind of some kind of 620 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:37,359 Speaker 1: circumstantial comment that the boyfriend has made because you know 621 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: he's kind of an ear witness, if you will, to 622 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 1: this information that's coming in from, you know, his girlfriend, 623 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: who's now deceased. You don't want to do anything as 624 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 1: an investigator. It's going to frighten away a potential suspect. 625 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 1: So you continue to play your hand out as if 626 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 1: it is in fact, I murder suicide, just so that 627 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: you can get information from them. And of course, when 628 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 1: they again to dig into the relationship that you know 629 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: that the daughter actually had with her mother and you 630 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: begin to understand that there's this issue of jealousy that's 631 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: going on, that she's wanting money, that she wants to 632 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: buy her own house and these sorts of things, and 633 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,720 Speaker 1: none of that is happening for her. You know, pieces 634 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: begin to fall into place at that point. As usual, 635 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to back up on your little when the 636 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: boyfriend called police, he told police and during the course 637 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: of the Mam on one called, we find that he 638 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: had several conversations with his girlfriend, Helen, trying to convince 639 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,239 Speaker 1: her to get out of the house. But he mentioned 640 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,759 Speaker 1: that while Helen did not see the mother's body through 641 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:50,320 Speaker 1: the cracked door, he could hear the mother gasping for breath. 642 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,479 Speaker 1: What does that tell you? Well, that that means that 643 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: we were talking about the power of the gunshot wound, 644 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: that she had sustained earlier and I had mentioned a 645 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: canal respiration, which is it's almost you know, some people 646 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: will term it as a death rattle, where you know 647 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 1: people are right on the edge of succumbing to a 648 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 1: disease or an injury that they have sustained. It's this 649 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: gasp where they're still breathing, the heart is still pumping, 650 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 1: but there's been so much destruction, particularly in this case 651 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: to the head, where you're, you know, the circumstances making 652 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: incompatible with life at that moment and life is literally 653 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 1: ebbing away from the victim. And the fact that he 654 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 1: was in fact an ear witness to this again chills 655 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 1: you to the bone because that's something that you know 656 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 1: he'll certainly never forget and it's something he'll live with 657 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: for all of his days. So, combining all of this information, 658 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 1: when police arrived at the scene again, they recognize that 659 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 1: it is not an actual murder suicide. They recognize that 660 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: it is staged. Then they have to go about trying 661 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,279 Speaker 1: to figure out who did it. We know that the 662 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: boyfriend said, according to Helen, that Megan had killed their mother. 663 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,760 Speaker 1: Police began to piece together the WHO, what, when, where, Waiian, 664 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 1: how how do they do that? Where did they start? 665 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: I mean, we ultimately find out that Megan was caught, 666 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 1: or heard, I guess you would say, trying to impersonate 667 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,720 Speaker 1: the mother on the phone at the bank to transfer 668 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 1: money to buy her own home. There was a text 669 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:37,240 Speaker 1: sent to the boyfriend on Helen's phone which said everything 670 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 1: is fine, I'm not mad at Megan, which the boyfriend 671 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: said he never thought that that actually came from his girlfriend. 672 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,239 Speaker 1: And then there's other evidence from the day before where 673 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: we know now that Megan was trying to get money 674 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: from the mother because she would not pay for this 675 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: home that she wanted. So what's the starting point in it? 676 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 1: Do you just started saying, okay, let's check the phones, 677 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 1: let's check the computer? I mean, what do you do? 678 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 1: This is one of these interesting points in time where 679 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: I think that the medical examiner really comes into play here, 680 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: particularly when you begin to attempt to calculate post mortal manterval. 681 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 1: You know, you're talking about this text that went out. 682 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 1: Did the medical legal authorities, through their due diligence at 683 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,799 Speaker 1: seen when they began to do body temperatures instead of 684 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: rigor mortis and all those things relative to the bodies 685 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,319 Speaker 1: and compare that. Say, for instance, that data would be 686 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:36,720 Speaker 1: given over to the police because they have a marker 687 00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,760 Speaker 1: and time when this text that allegedly originated from Helen 688 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,799 Speaker 1: came out. So that's a static marker and time, and 689 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:45,920 Speaker 1: one of the things you're trying to establish scientifically with 690 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 1: the body is it possible, given the time frame of 691 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,920 Speaker 1: the changes postmortem, for her to have sent this text? 692 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 1: And that's one of the basic places you're gonna start. 693 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,840 Speaker 1: And then there's time signatures relative to everything you do 694 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,879 Speaker 1: in the digital world and in this case you had 695 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 1: this daughter going in and attempting to fake her mother 696 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 1: or pretend that she was her mother, at least over 697 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 1: the phone. And then, secondly, there's a wire transfer that's 698 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:18,720 Speaker 1: taking place that's actually sending Moneis to a title Holding 699 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,279 Speaker 1: Company for the daughter's home and it's coming out of 700 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,280 Speaker 1: the mother's account, and this is upwards of four hundred 701 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,319 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. So you know, the police are beginning to 702 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,279 Speaker 1: piece all of this together. You know what's the motivation 703 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 1: behind all of this, and your fallback position is, as 704 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,880 Speaker 1: an investigator, you begin to kind of look at these 705 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:43,280 Speaker 1: tried and true points along a continuum that we always 706 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 1: default too, and that's you know, motive, the means, the 707 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 1: opportunity and who would have this within the circle, because 708 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,400 Speaker 1: you begin to look and you think, well, did some 709 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:57,000 Speaker 1: random stranger actually come in and bring about the deaths 710 00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,840 Speaker 1: of these individuals? We've already kind of eliminated at this 711 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 1: point that it is a murder suicide. The police are 712 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,439 Speaker 1: looking at this as this is they're working this now, 713 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:06,839 Speaker 1: is a double homicide, based upon the information is coming 714 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,560 Speaker 1: in from the M e. and then you think about, well, 715 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 1: where did they get a weapon from? WHO Does the 716 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 1: weapon tie back to? Does the family have history of 717 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 1: having weapons? Is this a weapon that belongs to the family? 718 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,040 Speaker 1: WHO had access to the weapon? who had experience with 719 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,799 Speaker 1: a weapon? Who would have known where it was? So 720 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 1: you know, once you established the fact that your your 721 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 1: field begins to kind of narrow as to who the 722 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:34,839 Speaker 1: suspects could be in this environment. Who, who would be 723 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: motivated in order to do this? You know, I think 724 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,320 Speaker 1: that it's at that point that you're going to focus 725 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,560 Speaker 1: in on the daughter in this particular case, because you 726 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,360 Speaker 1: know that this is not a randomized act of violence. 727 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:48,759 Speaker 1: You begin to look at the scene, you know that 728 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 1: it's again our old adage about enough signs of forced 729 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: entry or struggle. There's no evidence of that at the scene. 730 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 1: There's no indication that this is what happened, there was 731 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:01,759 Speaker 1: a force entering in a struggle, and that you've got 732 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,880 Speaker 1: these two individuals that have been killed in this manner. 733 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,279 Speaker 1: You've got kind of a controlled environment where everything is 734 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,800 Speaker 1: kind of self contained in there, and you have to ask, 735 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,799 Speaker 1: you know, who would have had this ability? Megan Hargen 736 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:20,080 Speaker 1: was brought in for questioning five days after the murders, 737 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:24,960 Speaker 1: but she was not arrested and charged for a year. So, 738 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,480 Speaker 1: if I understand this correctly, it took that amount of 739 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 1: time for police to do their due diligence and investigation 740 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 1: to find and connect the dots for the suspect. In 741 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,839 Speaker 1: this case, it did, and you know this is it's 742 00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,000 Speaker 1: kind of a complex case because not only do you 743 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 1: have the physical evidence at the scene, but you have 744 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,560 Speaker 1: all of this digital evidence and certainly the financial evidence, 745 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 1: and it's actually a multi jurisdictional case as well, which 746 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,279 Speaker 1: is kind of fascinating, because they had partners and I 747 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,880 Speaker 1: think both West Virginia and Virginia and and I think 748 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,040 Speaker 1: probably to a certain extent, that they called on resources 749 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,680 Speaker 1: from the feds as well. So anytime you get that 750 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:11,279 Speaker 1: many people, if you will pardon to the term, but 751 00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,799 Speaker 1: you know, kind of dancing together in this environment, then 752 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,120 Speaker 1: you'll have varied interest and you have to make sure. 753 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,120 Speaker 1: That's why it's it's so important that you have a 754 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,879 Speaker 1: strong leader relative to the lead investigator on the case, 755 00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,759 Speaker 1: because they're kind of the conductor, if you will, and 756 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:28,759 Speaker 1: I mean that from a you know, conductor of a 757 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,320 Speaker 1: of an orchestra. They have to make sure that everybody 758 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,120 Speaker 1: is playing on the same sheet of music and then 759 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,239 Speaker 1: to get the courts involved as well relative to all 760 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,759 Speaker 1: of the search warrants that have to take place. I 761 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:43,359 Speaker 1: can only imagine that when you begin to look at 762 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:48,319 Speaker 1: the case file on not just this case but the 763 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,200 Speaker 1: multiple cases that resulted from it. There's multiple charges involved 764 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:56,279 Speaker 1: in this and all of these various issues, it would 765 00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,359 Speaker 1: look rather voluminous. You'RE gonna have volume upon volume upon 766 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,560 Speaker 1: volume of data that's going to be analyzed and scrutinized 767 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,360 Speaker 1: in court. So, yeah, it would take some time to 768 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,279 Speaker 1: put this together and in plus, you know, this is 769 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,719 Speaker 1: a very high profile case where you've got multiple deaths 770 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,120 Speaker 1: in a very affluent area. I mean, let's just face it, 771 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,399 Speaker 1: it is, and they wanted to make sure that they 772 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,880 Speaker 1: had everything just right before they charged. A jury found 773 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:26,360 Speaker 1: Megan Harrigan guilty on all counts, including first degree murder 774 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:33,520 Speaker 1: in the depths of her sister Helen and her mother, Pamela. 775 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks