1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:05,559 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. A reduction of shondaland 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. So it's like 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: the supremacy or the misogyny or transpobia at the top, 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: it's put into policies and laws, and then it just 5 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: trickles down into this real sense of permission to assault 6 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: and attack, whether blatant violence that creates physical harm or death, 7 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: or just for you know, the microaggressions that are so 8 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: commonplace and people don't even think much about them. Hello, everyone, 9 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. I'm Laverne Cox. 10 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: So I definitely want to give a trigger warning before 11 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: today's episode because it's triggering. It's fun to talk about this. 12 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: The trauma is super real for me as a survivor 13 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: of multiple forms of direct and indirect violence, both in 14 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: my childhood and as an adult. Year after years, transfolkes 15 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: become more visible in the media, the instances of violence 16 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: against us are not decreasing. In fact, these instances are increasing, 17 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: particularly fatal violence. In two thousand, trans people that we 18 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: know of were murdered in the United States alone. That's 19 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: the highest number for the US ever in a single year, 20 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: and an estimated three and fifty trans people were murdered globally. 21 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: Since I've had a public platform, I've been trying to 22 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: bring awareness to the senseless violence too many transpokes experience 23 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: on a daily basis. There are so many factors that 24 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: can make trans folks more vulnerable to violence, housing and employment, 25 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: in security, lack of access to healthcare, policies that fail, 26 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: trans youth in school, media stigma and political propaganda, to 27 00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: humanizing trans folks, and many others. Of course, I I'm 28 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: so sick and tired of talking about this. I just 29 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: want this violence to stop. How do we stop would 30 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: be perpetrators from physically attacking us? How do we stop 31 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: them from killing us? This brings me to today's guest, 32 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: Dr Karen Franklin. I first talked with her in two 33 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: thousand fourteen for the documentary Free c C, which you 34 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: can purchase or rent on Amazon Prime or iTunes. Dr 35 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,959 Speaker 1: Karen Franklin is a forensic psychologist who has conducted pioneering 36 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: research into the motivations of people who assault sexual and 37 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: gender minorities. In fact, she has presented her research findings 38 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: to a hate crime subcommittee of the U. S. Senate. 39 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: Dr Franklin is an adjunct professor of forensic psychology and 40 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: host a prominent forensic psychology blog. She's also a former 41 00:02:49,880 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: criminal investigator. Please enjoy my conversation with Dr Karen Franklin. Already, Hi, Karen, 42 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today. I'm 43 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: doing well. It's so nice to see you. It's been 44 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: such a long time. It's been such a long time. 45 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: It's been it's been I think seven years since we talked. 46 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: Last we were I think it was in San Francisco 47 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: and we talked about c c McDonald and her case, 48 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,519 Speaker 1: and people can watch the film free CC to hear 49 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: Karen's remarks about violence against trans women in that documentary. 50 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 1: UM this subject I've been talking about my entire public life, 51 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: really and it's gotten more and more difficult over the years. 52 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: But I wanted to talk to you today because I 53 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: want to have a vision for ending violence of all 54 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: kinds of particularly violence against trans women. So I wanted 55 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: to try to understand it better, particularly understanding the motivations 56 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: the rationale of the perpetrators. So Dr Franklin, from your research, 57 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: what are some of the top reasons perpetrators have cited 58 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: for the violence, hate violence they've committed. Well, there are 59 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: several distinct motivations that can be separated out, actually, because 60 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: that was one of the that was the main thing 61 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: I was looking at in my research was I was 62 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: I wanted to go directly to perpetrators and ask them 63 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: exactly why they did what they did. And it came 64 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 1: down to not one thing, but several different things. One 65 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: was norms enforcement, social norms enforcement, whether for gender or 66 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: for sexuality. And then another motivation was peer motivations, pere bonding, 67 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: not being ridicule, going along with the group, having fun together. 68 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: Another motivation is what is called instrumental violence, which is 69 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: not particularly due to the person's status as as a category, 70 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: but rather because it's easier to assault them for some 71 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: of the reason For example, robberies like some some robbers 72 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: might go after gay men because they think it's easier 73 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: to get them to go to a secluded location where 74 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: they can be easy lee robbed. The same with targeting 75 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: of Asian victims, actually because there's a stereotype that they're 76 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: weak and not likely to fight back. So certain offenders 77 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: aren't really motivated by hate or bias at all. They're 78 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: just motivated by stereotypes about who's going to be easy 79 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 1: to target. And then finally there's defensive aggression, in which 80 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 1: the offender is feeling like they are defending themselves. And 81 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 1: again really prominent with anti transplolence, where you know, this 82 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: person was coming on to me, or this person deceived me, 83 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: or this person was looking at me wrong or flirting 84 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: with me, and so then I had to attack them 85 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: because my self respect or or even personal safety was 86 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: at stake. So those are the four main reasons that 87 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: I found. I know, I had to defend my masculinity. 88 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 1: James Dixon, who murdered Lan knows talking about he needs 89 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: to defend his masculinity. Yeah. Wow wow. So much of 90 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: your work staying hate crime and anti embiased crimes focused 91 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: on anti gay violence. What do you see as the 92 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: relationship between anti gay hate crimes and anti trans hate crimes. Yeah, 93 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: that's a super interesting and really good question, because when 94 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: I actually first started out to do my research, I 95 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: wasn't really even thinking about anti terrans gender violence particularly, 96 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,239 Speaker 1: but it just sort of it popped right up onto 97 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: my radar right aways, and as I really launched into it, 98 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: and I actually over time, as I did my research 99 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: which was two types of research. I did survey research 100 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: of young adults, just normally young college students, and then 101 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 1: also some more in depth interviews with perpetrators, and it 102 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: quickly became clear to me that a lot of what 103 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: was going on was more gender norms enforcement than actual 104 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: targeting of gay men and lesbians based on sexual orientation. 105 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: And when we look at it more historically, when homosexuality 106 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: first became a public identity, which wasn't until like less 107 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: than a hundred years ago, the nineties or so, it 108 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: was really more thought of by the public as gender nonconformity, 109 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: so it was masculine women and effeminate men more so 110 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: than based on sexual behaviors. And in fact, what I 111 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: found in my research was that a lot of what 112 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: is kind of captured under the rubric of anti gay 113 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: violence is targeting of people based on their perceived gender nonconformity. 114 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: That is so important to note. I think about my 115 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: own life and when I was bullied for the first 116 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: time as a child in preschool, I was called anti 117 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: gay slurs, but I was being bullied because he had 118 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: said I acted like a girl. So their violence towards 119 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: me was really about enforcing gender norms, right, but they 120 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: called it gay and so historically I've talked about this 121 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: for years. Historically people have complaint get sexual orientation and 122 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: gender identity. Can you break down, I guess in some 123 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: of your research what gender norms to folks see we're 124 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: not being performed correctly that they were trying to police. 125 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: So it's different depending on the gender male or female. 126 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: But for boys in particular and men who are not 127 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: masculine enough, that is a violation of longstanding social norms. 128 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 1: I think this is a complex topics a lot to it, 129 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: and there's a lot of nuances. But if we're gonna 130 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: drill down and look at anti trans women violence for example, 131 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 1: So the ideal in our culture for men is strong, 132 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: warrior like masculinity, right, and that historically comes from nineteenth 133 00:08:54,960 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: century Western ideals that went along with colonization. So colonization 134 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: of inferior people's based on this kind of strong, powerful, 135 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: dominant masculinity. And so if a young child is being 136 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: bullied for being a boy and not being masculine enough, 137 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 1: he's violating this norm of hyper masculinity. And then women 138 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: just in general are considered to be inferior based on 139 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: that norm because masculinity kind of holds itself up as 140 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: the opposite of femininity, and women are subjugated and looked 141 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: down upon. So anybody not adhering to those norms is 142 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: it is thought to be doing something wrong. Like for 143 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,839 Speaker 1: for example, what what seems to be happening right now. 144 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 1: And you know, as you may know, rates of violence 145 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: are said to be increasing against trans women of color 146 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: in particular, and especially combicides right now. In the last 147 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: few years, there's been ascending curve according to the Human 148 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: Rights Counsel keeps tracking these things. And what's happening is 149 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: this very deliberate attempt by certain ultra right forces to 150 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: use transgender is um as a wedge cultural issue. And 151 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: they and it's very very cynical and deliberate because they 152 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: actually can be in focus groups to see what will 153 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,439 Speaker 1: resonate and what can bring in kind of suburban Republican 154 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: voters to the polls. Right now, they you know, they 155 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: think that the issue of trans women in sports is 156 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: very powerful for them. But across the Boyd's like dozens 157 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: and dozens of laws being proposed, especially across the seven States, 158 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: to restrict the rights transgender people in health care and 159 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 1: to being called their correct pronoun in the schools, and 160 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: even really serious things like doctors being able to deny 161 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: treatment based on their own moral and religious beliefs. So 162 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: theoretically an emergency room doctor could have a transpatient walk 163 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: in and say I don't want to treat this person 164 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 1: and let them die. I think that was Arkansas. Yeah, 165 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: actually in Arkansas effect that Arkansas is the first bill. 166 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: So there's several states that have passed sports bans on 167 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: trans girls competing in sports. I think three or four 168 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,079 Speaker 1: different states have passed that. But in Arkansas, they've criminalized 169 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 1: doctors providing healthcare to transgender children, and it would become 170 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:24,719 Speaker 1: it would be a felony for doctors to treat and 171 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: or even refer transgender youth for gender affirming healthcare. And 172 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: there are several states as of the recording of this 173 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: episode that have similar laws being considered and debated as 174 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: we speak. So I think it's important to note that 175 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: there's this has been focus grouped, right, that this is 176 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: a very deliberate, sort of cynical effort by lawmakers to 177 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: scapegoat trans people. And we know that there is a 178 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: correlation between stigma against a certain group and violence against 179 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: that group, right, we're able to particularly I think in 180 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: the conversation around transgender women in sports, it immediately be 181 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: times a conversation about bodies, testosterone levels, strength, which I 182 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: believe objectifies trans people in them we can dehumanize. And 183 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: even as we have this increased visibility of transpokes, the 184 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: violence is also increasing. And that violence is it is 185 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:20,079 Speaker 1: obviously physical, it's with the deadliest yard record for trans people, 186 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: but that assault is also legislative, and it's also judicial 187 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:29,959 Speaker 1: and interpersonal. So wait, that's right. You hit the nail 188 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: on the head, is that these things are correlated and 189 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: when So, for example, with the coronavirus, when the when 190 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: people in government started calling it the Chinese flu and 191 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: the Wuhan virus, you saw of dramatic increase in anti 192 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: Asian violence. Same thing with after nine eleven, dramatic increase 193 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: and anti Arab violence. And so anytime the forces of 194 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: the state or people in the authority or prominent politicians 195 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: start demonizing a group, it trickles down. So we've got 196 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: kind of a violent ideology at the top that trickles 197 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: down into laws and policies, and then that trickles down 198 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: to give people on the at the lower ends of 199 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: the of the cultural spectrum, permission or even instruction that 200 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: they should be enforcing these norms against whatever group it 201 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 1: is that's being demonized and dehumanized. Absolutely, So, in any 202 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: of your research, have you spoken specifically to perpetrators who 203 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: have commit violence against trans women or with most of 204 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: your research with anti gape bias crimes, I did speak 205 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: with people who had committed specifically anti trans violence, and 206 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: I wasn't really setting out to do that. It just 207 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: so happened that that's what I encountered, and because really 208 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: I think perpetrators aren't necessarily categorizing people the same way 209 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: people are categorizing themselves. But I do recall very specifically 210 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:08,119 Speaker 1: one particular perpetrator who I interviewed, who had been convicted 211 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: of an anti gay hate crime. But then when I 212 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: started talking to him, he started telling me about some 213 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: other attacks that he had participated in, and in one 214 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: he was with some friends and he saw somebody who 215 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: he said was a man wearing a dress and high 216 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: heels and makeup, and he went over there and started 217 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: kicking the person. And I asked him, I said, so, 218 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: why did you do that? And he said, well, he 219 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: was wearing a dress and makeup and high heels, and 220 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: he and I asked you, but why did you actually 221 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: go over there and assault this person? And he just 222 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: looked at me like there was something wrong with my intelligence, 223 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: because why didn't I why did I not understand that 224 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: this was a normal thing to do. If you see 225 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: somebody who's obviously violating gender norms, you have permission or 226 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: maybe even a moral duty to do something about that person. 227 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: I think I remember reading that example on some of 228 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: the research and some of the interviews have read about you, 229 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: and it's it's really stands out because the assumption for 230 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: this perpetrator is like, well, just look at them, and 231 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: so then it just it just makes me think about 232 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: so many moments in my life where I've you know, 233 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: been verbally assaulted or even physically assaulted, and so much 234 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: of it. So it seemed to come down to, well, well, 235 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: look at them, right, look at them, and there's a 236 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: there's a there's a mythology right now, whenever I'm online 237 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: and a trans person has been murdered, and it happens 238 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: far too much in a comment section, you'll see a 239 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: number of people say, well, they shouldn't be trying to 240 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: fool people, right, So there's a mythology that trans women 241 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: are out there fooling people, and when men realize that 242 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: they're with the trans woman, of course they're going to 243 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: react negatively and and kill the trans person. There was 244 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: a moment on a show called a Breakfast Club. It 245 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: was a day after Janet Mock, author TV director Janet 246 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: Mock was on the Breakfast up talking about her second book, 247 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: Surpassing Certainty, and she disclosed that in her early twenties 248 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: she had dated a man for many months and did 249 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: not disclose that she was trans. The next day on 250 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: the Breakfast Club, they had a comedian named Little Duval 251 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: on the show and held up a photo of Janet 252 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: and said, you know, how would you feel if like 253 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: you were dating this woman and you found out she 254 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: was trans? And then he said, well, she'd have to die, 255 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: you know he So he said this on the radio, 256 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,479 Speaker 1: and it was it was insane. But that is the 257 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: kind of mentality that we hear from people. And I'm 258 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: sure there are trans women transpokes for various reasons, who 259 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: don't always disclose that their trans to the people they're 260 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: dating for safety reasons, internal life shame. Early in my transition, 261 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: I went on a few dates with guys and didn't 262 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: tell them right away that I was trans, and I 263 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: stopped doing that like twenty years ago because it just 264 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: for me personally. I didn't want to get motionally attached 265 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: to someone and then be rejected because I'm trans, and 266 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: like they're gonna reject me because I'm trans. I'd like 267 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: to be rejected right away. But what I found and 268 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: what I believe happens, even though these men say that 269 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: they were with these trans women and did not know, 270 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 1: that could certainly be the case. But there are a 271 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: number of cases where men have claimed this and the 272 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 1: evidence suggests otherwise. Right, there's two cases I think of. 273 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: I think of Angie Zappada, trans woman who was murdered 274 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight in Colorado, and I think 275 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: about Mercedes Williams and a trans woman who was murdered 276 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: in um Mississippi in two thousand and fifteen. Angie Zapatam, 277 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 1: her murderer was convicted of a hate crime. It's actually 278 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: the first instance when I hate crime distinction was used 279 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: for the murder of a transgender person. The perpetrator basically 280 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: said that he had traveled to hang out with Angie 281 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: and they left the apartment, and then he saw clues 282 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 1: that she was trans, and when she came back, he 283 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 1: confronted her and discovered that she was trans and then 284 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: beat her to death. The evidence, though that's presented a trial, 285 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: suggest that all of her friends and families said that 286 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: she always informed men that she was trans. There was 287 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: also evidence that suggested that he had gone to court 288 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: with her when she had a traffic violation, and that 289 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: her name, her dead name, was used in that trial, 290 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: and so he would have had to have heard her name. 291 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 1: And then there was also some kind of salacious evidence 292 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: of a of a sex toy that was recovered from 293 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,719 Speaker 1: the scene of the crime that had his DNA only 294 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,360 Speaker 1: on the on the sex toy. So he had made 295 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: very anti gay statements around gay folks should die, and 296 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: he claimed that he didn't know, but there was all 297 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: this evidence that suggested that he did know. And there's 298 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: another case of Mercedes Williamson that I often site as well. 299 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: She was a seventeen year old trans woman who was 300 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: murdered in two thousand and fifteen in Mississippi, and she 301 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: was murdered by a guy who was in Latin king 302 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: and he claimed too, that he didn't know she was trans, 303 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: he discovered it and then killed her. But there's a 304 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: really good friend of Mercedes who said that he had 305 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: to have known. They've been dating for many, many months 306 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: and that he knew she just the friend described, you know, 307 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: sexual encounters that they had had, and he was in 308 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 1: he's a and surfing life sentence now in prison. That's 309 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: a documentary Love and Hate Crimes that you can watch 310 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: about him on on BBC. And again we have but 311 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,199 Speaker 1: we have evidence that suggests that he knew that she 312 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,199 Speaker 1: was trans, but he's claiming that he didn't know. I 313 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: guess it's just really frustrating because it feels like it's 314 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 1: a victim blaming thing, and it's a narrative that suggests 315 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: that men aren't knowingly seeking us out, and when most 316 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:24,719 Speaker 1: trans women who live in big cities know that there 317 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: are lots of men who are seeking us out, you know, 318 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: and just don't want people to know about it. Right? What? What? 319 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: What are your thoughts around that? So there is some 320 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: recent scholarship on this topic and a few things here 321 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 1: is as as all as all of these topics are 322 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 1: the kind of complex and a lot to unpack. But 323 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: the first thing is what you mentioned that there's this 324 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: narrative or stereotype of trans women as evil deceivers, right 325 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 1: that are tricking these heterosexual men into relationships without their knowledge. 326 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 1: And so essentially what that does, it's kind of a 327 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: shifting of the blame, right, and then identity is turned 328 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: into provocation. Just mere identity becomes a provocation meriting a 329 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: violent response. So trans identity is a trespass right against normality. 330 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: So that's the first thing is that it's a blame 331 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: shifting thing. But the second part of it is if 332 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: a trans woman is successfully quote passing and and has 333 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: to disclose in order to be revealed as transgender, then 334 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: she's put in a double mind right because she has 335 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 1: to say something and then she has to make that 336 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 1: decision about when is it safe to do so. So, 337 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: like there's one study of trans women of color in 338 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: Australia who talk about the fact that even just walking 339 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 1: down the street and have and hearing a sexually flirtatious 340 00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 1: comment from a man, they have to think, Okay, if 341 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: I even accept this politely, I'm putting myself at risk 342 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: because then that might escalate into greater flirtation, which might 343 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: escalate into them seeing that I'm transgender, which might escalate 344 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: into violence. So the idea that that the trans woman 345 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: is responsible for this man's violence. First of all, people 346 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: are responsible for their own violence, right, and to shift 347 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: the blame over onto the victim is really heinous. That's 348 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 1: so important. People are responsible for their own violence. Can 349 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: you just pause their People are responsible for their own violence, 350 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: so that anyone who has committed violencing as the transperson, 351 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: they are responsible for that violence. It's not the transperson's fault. 352 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: I just wanted to just pause on that. Go on absolutely, now, Okay, 353 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: So now we get to the next level, which is 354 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: there are men who are straight identified who are conflicted 355 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: about their sexuality and who feared that being with a 356 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 1: trans woman means that they're gay, and they can freak 357 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 1: out during sex or or even not during sex and 358 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: then a shout, So that is a phenomenon. But and 359 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 1: then the other thing that some trans women have spoken 360 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: about in in our research studies is the idea of 361 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: fetishization of the trans body. So sort of men collecting 362 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: a trans women as kind of an exotic specimen or 363 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 1: almost like a doll. And if you look at somebody 364 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: as an exotic being. They're not really a person anymore, 365 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:28,959 Speaker 1: and you can own them, and you have control over them, 366 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: and you have a right to do whatever you want 367 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: with their body. So rates of sexual assault, for example, 368 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: against trans women and relationships with heterosexually identified men are 369 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: higher than for other women. Percent of transgender people have 370 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: been sexually assaulted um in their lifetime for percent of 371 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: trans people. You got it. So the other piece of that, 372 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: you know, I hate to use huge terms, but intersectionality 373 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: is really important to remember, which is kind of the 374 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: multiplicative effects of different forms of oppression when they come together. 375 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: And I think it's important to remember that trans women 376 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: are women, and that women in relationships experienced high levels 377 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: of violence from men period, So intimate partner violence, I 378 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: mean a third of women homicide victims across the board 379 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: are killed by their intimate partner. As you say, sexual 380 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: assault is high in general and the population, and so 381 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: with the added permission afforded if one is fetishizing the 382 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: trans woman or thinking of himself as doing her a 383 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 1: favor by being with her, and author times trans women 384 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: are economically disadvantage and so may have fear of leaving relationship. 385 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: For those types of reasons, survival type of reasons. It 386 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: all compounds into really a great risk of victimization and then, 387 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 1: like you say, scapegoating and turning the blame around. This 388 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: is a good time to take a little break. We'll 389 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: be right back though. Okay, let's get back to our chat. 390 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 1: I would love to try to understand the psychology of 391 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 1: the perpetrator as much as possible. I mean, I'm Gwen Araujo, 392 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: the trans woman who was murdered in two thousand two 393 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: in Newark, California. One of her one of her killers 394 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: upon finding out that she was trans at a party. 395 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: And this is a group situation. Now you have done 396 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: great research on group settings. He repeatedly said to himself, 397 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: I can't be gay. I can't be gay. I can't 398 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: be gay. He had allegedly had sexual relations with Gwen, 399 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: not knowing that she was trans, And there's different reports 400 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 1: that suggest that she wasn't, that she wasn't always completely 401 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: quote unquote passing that like it was obvious to many 402 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: people that she was trans, and many people speculated. But 403 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 1: he said, over and over again, I can't be gay. 404 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: I can't be gay. What is of research told you 405 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: about that kind of mentality, right, the fear of being 406 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 1: gay and that being with the transports and makes you gay. 407 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: What do we know about this? That's kind of psychology. Yes, 408 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,199 Speaker 1: I think you said it really well, but it is. 409 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: It's an internal conflict between the man's internalized homophobia and 410 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: fear that he's gay for being with a trans woman 411 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:26,919 Speaker 1: and his desire is a rotic attraction that it can 412 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 1: create enormous shame, enormous sphere and lashing out. I think 413 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: the more when you talk about prevention, what you were 414 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: speaking about earlier, I think, the more that homosexuality, for example, 415 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: becomes normalized and not so stigmatized, which is happening so rappidly. 416 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: You know, it's hard to believe how quickly cultural marks 417 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:54,719 Speaker 1: are changing that internalized fear should start to reduce and 418 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: not create such a sense of panic that people feel 419 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: the need that these men feel the need to violently 420 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 1: lash out. I think I'm a little bit optimistic that 421 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: things have changed so fast that they will continue to change. 422 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: And I mean we were speaking earlier about laws and 423 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: the cynical use of laws in order to ramp up 424 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: hysteria against trans people for political aims, But some of 425 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: these things have fallen flat, like the transgender military band. 426 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: The majority of Americans do not support that. Even the 427 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,239 Speaker 1: bathroom bills that that kind of flopped, you know, And 428 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 1: so you know, they found one one out of several 429 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: that really seems to resonate, the the athletics thing because 430 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 1: it's framed as an issue of fairness. But I do 431 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: think that the public is becoming less phobic and less 432 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 1: prejudiced over time. I think to underlying this as well 433 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: is that we need to understand that trans women or women. 434 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: I think underlying so much of the anti trans discrimination 435 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,360 Speaker 1: high is violence. Underneath all of it is the assumption, 436 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 1: the belief that trans women aren't really women, right, that 437 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: we are really men in disguise, And so we have 438 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: to do away with that. And so straight men who 439 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: are attracted to um women are still straight. I mean, 440 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,880 Speaker 1: there was a trend happening on TikTok earlier this year 441 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: called super straight, and that basically meant that this guy 442 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: started a TikTok basically saying that like, well, you know, 443 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 1: it's an identity thing. You can't discriminate against me from 444 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: my identity. So my identity is super straight, meaning I'm 445 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: only attracted to women who were born women, and so 446 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: you can't call me transphobic if I don't want to 447 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: data trans woman, and it's like, it's just so, it's 448 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: fine if you don't want to date us, like I've 449 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: never there's plenty of people who do want to date us. 450 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 1: It's tricky. I understand that they are, you know, people, 451 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: you know. Finding love for trans people is hard, and 452 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: it's been difficult and challenging for me. I don't want 453 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: to downplay that. But the issue though, is that these 454 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 1: men are attracted to trans women. And then, for example, 455 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,679 Speaker 1: on on dating apps I I've used to before my 456 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 1: current relationship, I was on dating apps and what I 457 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: discovered is, and this is a lot happens to a 458 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: lot of trans people, is that men match with the 459 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: trans person realized their trans It's the first sentence of 460 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,959 Speaker 1: my profile. They don't reprofiles and then unmatched, but they 461 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: do it, and they get angry about it. They get 462 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 1: angry that they've been attracted to a trans person right 463 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: and lash out, and it elicits such a violent reaction 464 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: that they could actually be attracted to someone who's trans. 465 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: This makes me think of another case, Elan Nettles trans 466 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: woman who was murdered in two thousand thirteen in New 467 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: York City. James Dixon, the man who's now serving time 468 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 1: for her murder. He was with a group of his friends, 469 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: Alan and a friend of hers walked by and he 470 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: cat called her his friends. One of his friends realized 471 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: that she was trans, made fun of him, and then 472 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: he beat along Nettles to death. Apparently a few days earlier, 473 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: he's something similar. It happened he had flirted with two 474 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: trans women, not knowing they were trans, and then his 475 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: friends made fun of him, clowned him. I believe it's 476 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: the language he used, and so Elan Nettles was murdered 477 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: as a res that a Lamas is walking down the street. 478 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: She was just being herself. She wasn't deceiving anyone. Remember 479 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: your research on sort of multi participant sexual assault and 480 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: hate crimes and or bias crimes that link between misogyny 481 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: and homophobia. I find really interesting in how the dynamic 482 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: changes when these men are in groups, right, And I 483 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: think the example that you give Mss Nettles is a 484 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: little bit different than what what I'm generally speaking to 485 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: in these group crimes, in the sense that that particular 486 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: man that was cat calling, likely felt demasculalonized and threatened 487 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: by his friends, kind of by the ridicule, whereas a 488 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: lot of these group crimes there isn't even anything like that. 489 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: It's just it's an actual proactive decision to target somebody 490 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: based on whether they're female or gay or trans. But 491 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: but at any rate, yeah, there are certain motivations that 492 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: happened in these groups of mostly young men, mostly men 493 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: then their teens and twenties, where it's not only the 494 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: overarching motivation of enforcing gender norms that we talked about earlier, 495 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: but it's also a lot of group dynamics. So there's 496 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: an intense pressure to perform and to perform masculinity. There's 497 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: a sense that if you don't participate, you're gonna get 498 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: targeted yourself, or at least ridiculed or tease as being 499 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: non masculine. There's also a way that that committing violent 500 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: crimes together can really bond groups of young men and 501 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: make them feel closer to each other. There's there's thrill 502 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: seeking element to it. So what what I actually came 503 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: to realize in my own work, because I was initially 504 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: looking at hate crimes against gayman and lesbians and like, 505 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,959 Speaker 1: like we talked about hate crimes against transgender people kind 506 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: of came into that organically. Then I started looking at 507 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: group rape against women, not transgender, just all women, and 508 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: and realizing that the victim and all of these different crimes, 509 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter who the victim is. The victim 510 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: is interchangeable as long as they can represent femininity. So 511 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: it could be a trans woman, it could be a 512 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: female born woman. It could be a gay man who's 513 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: a feminine. It could be any of these things, and 514 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: the function is still the same as to extrude the 515 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: feminine from a group of guys and make them all 516 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: feel masculine. Um. You know. Another thing I just thought 517 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: about with the group piece is the sense of belonging. 518 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: I just had a conversation with with the straight man 519 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: who back in the day he used to engage in 520 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: like making fun of gay people and trans people, and 521 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: a lot of it was about fitting into a group, right, 522 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: A lot of it was about trying to have a 523 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: sense of belonging. So when I think about the group 524 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: mentality that like, we all crave connection and belonging, and 525 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: Burnee Brown always had to bring Bernie Brown in says 526 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: that the opposite of both true belonging is trying to 527 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: fit in right. Fitting in it's about shape shifting and 528 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: saying and being who you think you need to be 529 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: to be accepted. And we first must belong to ourselves 530 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: and we have to have a vest of values that 531 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: we're carrying with this at all times. I think that's 532 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: really true, but it's really hard to accomplish, especially when 533 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: you're young, when you're just going through adolescents and you're 534 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: just and you're really insecure, and the group is so important, 535 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: and you haven't really got your feet under you, and 536 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: you really don't know how to assert yourself, and so 537 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: so many people are followers. There's far fewer leaders than followers. 538 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: And what what young men and groups will say is 539 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: that they felt like everybody else was more committed to 540 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: what was going on than they were, and they didn't 541 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: want to let on about that. If you listen to 542 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: the perpetrators who participated in the Gwen Araujo murder in 543 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: two thousand two, there was one specifically who was there 544 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: and thought it wasn't sort of insaying what was happening, 545 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: but didn't know how to really stop it, and just 546 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: kind of went along with it, so that it is 547 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: consistent at least with that. I'm sure others as well. 548 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: And you know, Leavern, I should tell you actually how 549 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: I originally got interested in this topic when I first 550 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: was looking at the phenomenon of anti gay male and 551 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: anti lesbian hate crimes in the gay community. At that time, 552 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 1: these were conceptualized as hate crimes, so crimes driven by 553 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: hate or or you know, some form of bias or 554 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: negative emotion towards the victim, right, But when I was 555 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: growing up, I was actually associated with people who were 556 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: committing these crimes young men, and I didn't think that 557 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: those particular people that I knew were motivated by hate, 558 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: and I didn't think they were sexually conflicted either. They 559 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: were just young men in groups who would actually drive 560 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: up to San Francisco. I grew up here in the 561 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: San Francisco Bay area. They would just drive up to 562 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: San Francisco and cruise around looking for victims to target 563 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: because they thought it was really fun and and they 564 00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: also enjoyed that whole group camaraderie. So that's one one 565 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: thing is because at the time that I did my research, 566 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: nobody has actually talked to the perpetrators themselves to see 567 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: what was going on in their minds, and I found 568 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: it really interesting that a lot of them don't particularly 569 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: hold extreme views. They're just acting out these group dynamics, 570 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 1: and you know, an event will just take on a 571 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: life of its own as it goes along. So, for example, 572 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 1: in the in the case of miss Nettles, who was killed, right, 573 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 1: that was probably not even planned. And some of the 574 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: other guys in that group might have even secretly liked 575 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 1: what they saw going on, but they didn't feel like 576 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: they could probably say anything without looking weak or feminine themselves. 577 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,399 Speaker 1: If that makes sense. It does, it really does. It's 578 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: like we cannot really talk about ending trans phobia and 579 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,720 Speaker 1: homophobia without also talking about ending mithogyny quebec. Then you cannot. 580 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,280 Speaker 1: You cannot disentangle these things. They're all just twisted up together. 581 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: And in fact, when you really think about it, you know, 582 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:06,280 Speaker 1: the attacks on trans women in particular, I mean, women 583 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: in public spaces are policed right and their their bodies 584 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: are scrutinized. And this is a historic thing women. I 585 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 1: mean it's only recently that women haven't been even allowed 586 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 1: to go out in public without a male escort. But 587 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: certainly when we're out in public, men are entitled to 588 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 1: bother us and look at us and make comments. And 589 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's one of the differences between 590 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: trans mean and trans women in terms of victimization, is 591 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: that nobody's really looking at trans men very closely because 592 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:44,879 Speaker 1: they're not objects of public scrutiny the way that women are. 593 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: There's there's an invisibility of masculining and invisibility of a 594 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: certain kind of assume male privilege. So they're less on display. 595 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: And you've also talked about this is theater. They're less 596 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 1: on display in the sort of theater of you know, 597 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 1: of male female interaction exactly. I mean, I've said this 598 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 1: for a long time, but it always often feels like 599 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 1: it seems to keep coming back to having, you know, 600 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,320 Speaker 1: having people have a deeper understanding the humanity of trans people. 601 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: But there needs to be a critique of like misogyny 602 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: and patriarchy and what we teach those folks who are 603 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 1: male identified in culture about how to not only treat 604 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 1: lgbt Q plus folks, but how they treat women. Absolutely, 605 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 1: because in fact, one thing I found out when I 606 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 1: was doing my original research was that anti lesbian attacks 607 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,759 Speaker 1: tended to start out as anti woman attacks, just like 608 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,959 Speaker 1: anti trans women attacks just start as generic anti woman 609 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,879 Speaker 1: attacks or cat calling, and then if the woman responds 610 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: in a hostile way, like f you to a cat 611 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: call or an approach, then all of a sudden, the 612 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:53,360 Speaker 1: perpetrator will turn that around and start using anti lesbian epithets. 613 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: The woman might be lesbian or might be straight, it 614 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,040 Speaker 1: doesn't really matter. It's just a way of kind of 615 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 1: bending his um masculinity. I'm saying, Okay, this woman is 616 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: not accepting my entitled approach here, she must be gay, right, 617 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it really does what you just said. 618 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: It boils down to misogyny and just this a sense 619 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: of masculine entitlement that really I do think that we 620 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:30,359 Speaker 1: we we need interventions two educate boys as to the 621 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: rights of everybody too, and you know, not feel so entitled. 622 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 1: I would love for you know, diverse audiences to hear this. 623 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: But so many men feel like they're under attack, straight men. 624 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,240 Speaker 1: You know, you'll if you watch a Supreme Court hearing 625 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: your Congress, straight white men are under attack, you know. 626 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 1: And then a lot of straight black men also feel 627 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,919 Speaker 1: like they're under attacked from my perspective, they just want 628 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 1: to have the unfettered access to be able to be 629 00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,799 Speaker 1: misogynistic and homophobic without consequence. And so that's what it 630 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: feels like the attack is to me, and because I mean, 631 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: I love men and date men um but it's how 632 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 1: do we have the conversations that this toxic masculinity can 633 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: feel like these gender norms and expectations have to be 634 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: enforced through violence, means that they're not as sort of 635 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: inherent as we'd like to think, right, that they have 636 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: to continually be enforced and reinforced through systems through violence, 637 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: And if we could let that go, I feel like 638 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: they would be a lot happier too. But but I 639 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 1: think it's like there's also the critique of power. There's 640 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 1: some people who are just the psychological piece of it, 641 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: but then there's also the like I want power and privilege, 642 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: you know, and I don't know, I'm just grasping. Well, yeah, 643 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,359 Speaker 1: a couple of things about what you just said that 644 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,919 Speaker 1: I think are really critical here. One is the whole 645 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 1: notion of masculinity. It's not a real thing, which is 646 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: what makes it so fragile and and having to always 647 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: be protected and defending because it's not a real thing. 648 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,800 Speaker 1: It's just sort of an ideology, right, unless you really 649 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: fight to prove it. Men. You know, you may have 650 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: heard this research, but when they asked men and women 651 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 1: what they're most afraid of, women will say they're afraid 652 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: of being like raped or murdered, and men will say 653 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: they're afraid of being ridiculed or laughed at. And a 654 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: lot of that fear of being ridiculed or laughed at 655 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 1: is really primal and really drives a lot of what 656 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: men do. It seems like they're exercising power, but they're 657 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: exercising power sometimes from a place of internal fear. And 658 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: I agree with you, if if that could just be 659 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: somehow dismantled, they would be a lot happier. Right. And 660 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,440 Speaker 1: the other piece of it that that what you just 661 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: said brought up for me is that a lot of 662 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,920 Speaker 1: it is this whole scarcity model where if somebody has rights, 663 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: it somehow takes away rights from somebody else. And I 664 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 1: think that that's I mean, that's the whole antiimmigrant thing. 665 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 1: These immigrants come in somehow it's going to harm me 666 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,839 Speaker 1: as opposed to maybe better in society by having more 667 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,319 Speaker 1: hard working, productive people in our society. No, it's going 668 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,320 Speaker 1: to take away from me. And I think this whole 669 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: white heterosexual men are under attack idea comes from this 670 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: place of I'm feeling like, you know, I owned this 671 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,800 Speaker 1: world and now these people are all whether it's immigrants 672 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: or trans people or Asians or what have you, they're 673 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,400 Speaker 1: all encroaching on me and taking something away from me. 674 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 1: Is that there's not enough to go around. So we 675 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 1: have to move from a scarcity mentality and this is 676 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,719 Speaker 1: everyone to one of abundance. And you know, I you know, 677 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,799 Speaker 1: it's just it's fear. It's like this interesting thing around. 678 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,399 Speaker 1: Like Bernie Brown talked a lot about this, that if 679 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,719 Speaker 1: you can sort of still fear in people and give 680 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: them someone to blame, then you know, people can maintain 681 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: power that way. But for the people out there who 682 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 1: are being made afraid, I think that's the piece that 683 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 1: we have to begin to understand that trans folks are 684 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: not a threat, that like me, existing in the world 685 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: world is not a threat to you, and you need 686 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,080 Speaker 1: not be afraid of us. You need not be afraid 687 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,839 Speaker 1: of us. That the trans girls in sports, it's like 688 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 1: the Governor of West Virginia with Sula MSNBC recently, and 689 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 1: Stephanie Rule asked him, you know, you just signed this 690 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: anti trans girls playing sports in your state and state 691 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,799 Speaker 1: of West Virginia, can you name an instance of a 692 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: trans girl sort of taking advantage of the system, you know, 693 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 1: to you know, get an unfair advantage. And he couldn't 694 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: name an example in his state, and yet he just 695 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,040 Speaker 1: signed this law into being. And you know, trans people 696 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 1: have been allowed to take place sports in the Olympics 697 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: since two thousand two. There's not been an influx of 698 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 1: trans women dominating Olympic sports. There have actually been no 699 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,279 Speaker 1: trans Olympian since two thousand two. So yes, there are 700 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 1: a few cases where you know, some trans women have 701 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,279 Speaker 1: you know, played sports in in one but it's not 702 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,760 Speaker 1: a problem where thirty five states need to like introduce 703 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 1: over a hundred bills addressing so a lot of it 704 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 1: is about fear. It's a it's a strategically and cynically 705 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: manufactured crisis. I think, and I think people like you 706 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 1: learn or you know, I wish there was more people 707 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:08,920 Speaker 1: like you, because that's what will help, is more visibility 708 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:13,320 Speaker 1: and people speaking reasonably to power. But it does, it 709 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:17,839 Speaker 1: starts at the top, and it's often cynically deployed and 710 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 1: strategically to to hit people's fears about whatever. And you know, 711 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 1: I the more I learn about violence against trans women 712 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 1: in particular, so much of it is is deployed against 713 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: black trans women. And it's like, um, the parallels are 714 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 1: kind of inescapable about how lynching culture back in the 715 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:46,760 Speaker 1: day so similar the black codes and the gym crow laws. 716 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,239 Speaker 1: So it's like the supremacy or the misogyny or transphobia 717 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: at the top, it's put into policies and laws, and 718 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: then it just trickles down into this real sense of 719 00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 1: permission to assault an attack, whether whether blatant violence that 720 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 1: creates physical harm or death or just more you know, 721 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,080 Speaker 1: the microaggressions that are so commonplace and people don't even 722 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: think much about them. But it really does start at 723 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:13,959 Speaker 1: the top. It starts with people like Tucker Carlson who's 724 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: just boaming at the mouth about this trans athletics thing, 725 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: and you know, he is revving up that whole base 726 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: around this manufactured issue because they have found that this 727 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 1: is an issue that resonates more than unisex bathrooms. Yeah, 728 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:35,279 Speaker 1: what from your research with with perpetrators of violence in general, right, 729 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,800 Speaker 1: because it's like there's a we're talking about bolence against 730 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,480 Speaker 1: trance people specifically, but like a culture of violence, right 731 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 1: that is, you know, steeped in what Bell has called 732 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: imperialist white supremes, this capitalist patriarchy, these intersecting sort of structures. 733 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,799 Speaker 1: Have you, I guess in the research talk to perpetrators 734 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 1: who have like sort of reformed or thought differently about 735 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,719 Speaker 1: the violence that they've committed, or haven't haven't had some 736 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,400 Speaker 1: perspective on it. Absolutely, And in fact that's more my 737 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:00,880 Speaker 1: practice areas that are my search area because you know, 738 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,719 Speaker 1: I work as a forensic psychologist. I work with I mean, 739 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,040 Speaker 1: day in and day out with violent offenders. That's that's 740 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,920 Speaker 1: what I did. And typically typically violence is really a 741 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:16,200 Speaker 1: young man's thing, so it's teenagers, people in their twenties, 742 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,840 Speaker 1: maybe up to early thirties. And over time, most people 743 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:26,080 Speaker 1: who have committed violence do become more insightful and regretful 744 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 1: and slow down and stopped. And probably reform is more 745 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 1: the rule than the exception, I would say, and especially 746 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:40,319 Speaker 1: when people can be educated and approached in a good way, 747 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: like sometimes there have been for some hate crime offenders, 748 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:48,759 Speaker 1: rehabilitation programs designed specifically for them like racist hate crime 749 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 1: offenders who are then put into groups of people combating racism. 750 00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,239 Speaker 1: It's really can be really effective and really powerful for them, 751 00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,440 Speaker 1: and they can really turn their lives around and become 752 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: prominent spokespersons for progressive ideals. Is that about exposure to 753 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 1: people who are that raised or is it the education 754 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,759 Speaker 1: pieces that both? We know that we're very sort of 755 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 1: right now politically that most of us sort of live 756 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: around people who think like us and who look like 757 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,680 Speaker 1: us more so than any other time in our history. 758 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,840 Speaker 1: I think it's both. It's you know, having mentors who 759 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:29,400 Speaker 1: preach a positive message and exposure and also kind of 760 00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:36,120 Speaker 1: education about why their previous ideology had flaws. And of 761 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:40,040 Speaker 1: course it's not universally effective, but you know, they found, 762 00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,000 Speaker 1: for example, though, some of the most promising work at 763 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,280 Speaker 1: reducing bias crimes these days is in the school system, 764 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:50,080 Speaker 1: where they can train educators and counselors and then put 765 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:55,439 Speaker 1: really charismatic mentoring leaders into place that you can really 766 00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,279 Speaker 1: change the climate of a school and reduce bullying and 767 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:03,480 Speaker 1: harassment and which you know, escalates into into hate crimes. 768 00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,439 Speaker 1: That that's kind of positive to me because it means 769 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,680 Speaker 1: that we actually have the power to change the culture 770 00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:13,440 Speaker 1: from a small level. Yeah, that's really exciting to me, 771 00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,279 Speaker 1: and I think it's it's noteworthy that the guidelines of 772 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,680 Speaker 1: how trans kids should be treated in school that were 773 00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:23,000 Speaker 1: developed under Obama's Justice Department with Loretta Lynch where immediately rescinded, 774 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: one of the first things the Trump administration did in 775 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:28,120 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. I'm not sure what the status of that 776 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:30,640 Speaker 1: is now with the Biden administration, but that you know, 777 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,160 Speaker 1: I think it's a seventy of students. It's a glistening 778 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,960 Speaker 1: study of trans and gender nonconforming students in school experience 779 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:44,000 Speaker 1: arrascomer bullying s that is startling, startling. We'll be right 780 00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:58,799 Speaker 1: back without further ado. What do you think the role 781 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,480 Speaker 1: of religion is, because it's interesting the guy who I'm killed, 782 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:04,680 Speaker 1: Mercedes Williams, and his name escapes me at the moment, 783 00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:07,880 Speaker 1: but he talked a lot about God, right he's in jail, 784 00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,239 Speaker 1: and then his mom was very religious, and he's sort 785 00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:12,680 Speaker 1: of claiming that that he's not gay, and he didn't 786 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 1: know Mercedes was trans, and he's citing God a lot. 787 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,919 Speaker 1: What you know there, yet I've murdered someone, So what 788 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,200 Speaker 1: thau shall not kill? What is that right? What is 789 00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:28,760 Speaker 1: the relationship for you between religion and and bias crimes, 790 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,960 Speaker 1: because it's it seems like they're not compatible, but yet 791 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,840 Speaker 1: a lot of religious folks seemed to justify almost violence 792 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:40,720 Speaker 1: against trans people. There's definitely a correlation between religious fundamentalism 793 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:46,520 Speaker 1: and homophobia and transphobia and misogyny for that matter, in 794 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:51,080 Speaker 1: all three of the major you know, mon atheist religions, Christianity, Islam, 795 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:56,640 Speaker 1: and Judaism. So definitely there's a correlation. And when when 796 00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:00,360 Speaker 1: assailants are asked about their motivations, the ones who are 797 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:05,279 Speaker 1: committing violent crimes out of the value expressive function which 798 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,840 Speaker 1: is what we call it, which is because of their 799 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:13,120 Speaker 1: moral beliefs, will often cite religion. So there's definitely a 800 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 1: correlation between fundamentalist religious beliefs and the belief that such 801 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:25,759 Speaker 1: violens is acceptable, whether or not they're actually out there 802 00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,800 Speaker 1: committing violens or not. The belief that you know, there's 803 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:35,400 Speaker 1: that deviance should be punished is really prominent. Wow. Wow, 804 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:37,880 Speaker 1: I don't even know what to do with that, you know, 805 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,080 Speaker 1: because it's like, because you want I only be in 806 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:43,000 Speaker 1: a place where people's religion is is respected, you know, 807 00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:45,960 Speaker 1: I think that's very important, especially in the United States. Right. 808 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,800 Speaker 1: One of the big reasons we you know, the original 809 00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:50,719 Speaker 1: and folks came and I founded this country was for 810 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,359 Speaker 1: religious freedom, right, So we want folks to be able 811 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:57,200 Speaker 1: to have that that that religious freedom should not be 812 00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:01,640 Speaker 1: encroaching on the liberty of other folks. Yeah, it's actually 813 00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,640 Speaker 1: kind of scary. I mean, there's a conservative Christian fundamental 814 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,840 Speaker 1: organization that's going around the world is called the Alliance 815 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:11,359 Speaker 1: Defending Freedom. Yes, I'm familiar, really well funded, and they 816 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,680 Speaker 1: are trying to curtail the rights of sexual minorities and 817 00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:18,680 Speaker 1: general minorities around the world, including trying to lobby force 818 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:23,920 Speaker 1: sterilization of transgender people. And wow, you know this is 819 00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,279 Speaker 1: all on their belief about what God's law is. And 820 00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:31,280 Speaker 1: so I mean there are progressive religious movements as well. 821 00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:35,480 Speaker 1: I really need to step up and be heard absolutely, 822 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,640 Speaker 1: you know, I think it's important to note that the 823 00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,960 Speaker 1: organizations like Alliance Defending Freedom, they're really responsible for that. 824 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:42,920 Speaker 1: There the heart of the bathroom bills that were in 825 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,920 Speaker 1: state legislatures several years ago. There at the heart of 826 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:50,120 Speaker 1: the anti trans legislation targeting children. Right now, Land Spending 827 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,080 Speaker 1: Freedom argued at the Supreme Court that it should be 828 00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:54,880 Speaker 1: legal to fire someone for their jobs for being l 829 00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:59,120 Speaker 1: g b t Q plus. So they are really well organized, 830 00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:03,719 Speaker 1: really well fund day and are doing a really good job, 831 00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:08,160 Speaker 1: relentless around discrimination against trans people. Yeah. Yeah, it's really 832 00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:10,120 Speaker 1: scary and a lot of parts of the world, even 833 00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,880 Speaker 1: compared to hear the the amount of oppression and terror 834 00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,080 Speaker 1: that is going on is is is catastrophic. You know, 835 00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:19,279 Speaker 1: I can pull and they've got these signs that they 836 00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:23,279 Speaker 1: put up in various places that say things like lgbt 837 00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:27,640 Speaker 1: Q Free Zone, And there's been riots where sexual minorities 838 00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,319 Speaker 1: and general minorities are attacked and it's just and people 839 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,480 Speaker 1: are actually moving out of those countries because of the 840 00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,440 Speaker 1: level of danger that exists. And so I think it's 841 00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:40,200 Speaker 1: kind of there's a kind of global repressive movement that's 842 00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:44,799 Speaker 1: under way that I sure hope, sure hope that that 843 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:49,200 Speaker 1: that tide turns. Yeah. And and and my documentary Disclosure 844 00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,239 Speaker 1: that's available on Netflix, we talk about with increased visibility, 845 00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,160 Speaker 1: we become more targeted, and they're just seemed that just 846 00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,839 Speaker 1: seems to be the reality right now that we've never 847 00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,879 Speaker 1: been more visible. We just haven't in the meat and 848 00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:05,360 Speaker 1: the violence and legislative assaults are more vigorous at this 849 00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:10,880 Speaker 1: exact moment they've ever been. So. Well, that may just 850 00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:15,239 Speaker 1: be because what you're saying, Because there's visibility, then there's 851 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:19,080 Speaker 1: a backlash, right, But it may actually turn out that 852 00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:23,839 Speaker 1: this is just a temporary backlash that is overcome by 853 00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,359 Speaker 1: the visibility and the and the civil rights movement. I 854 00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:31,000 Speaker 1: hope that you know when, when when people become visible 855 00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,160 Speaker 1: in genders, a backlash, but that backlash may not be 856 00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:38,160 Speaker 1: successful over the long haul. Let's hope. So let's hope. 857 00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,719 Speaker 1: So we've talked at length about men and women, and 858 00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,840 Speaker 1: we know that some of the victims that you've studied 859 00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,440 Speaker 1: of the years would probably identify as non binary or 860 00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,360 Speaker 1: exist in some kind of non binary spaces. There's been 861 00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:53,320 Speaker 1: specific research on non binary people in terms of instances 862 00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:57,960 Speaker 1: of violence. There isn't much research, mainly because non binary 863 00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,400 Speaker 1: is a newly conceptualized thing, so it wasn't really something 864 00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,919 Speaker 1: that was known or talked about a couple of decades ago. 865 00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:08,360 Speaker 1: But what I will say is that the person's self 866 00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:13,759 Speaker 1: identification is pretty irrelevant to whether or not they are targeted. 867 00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:16,960 Speaker 1: It's more how they are perceived by the other person. 868 00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,600 Speaker 1: So for example, if a man is somewhat infeminine or 869 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,000 Speaker 1: a woman is a little bit masculine, or somebody looks 870 00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:26,160 Speaker 1: like they might be trans, that's going to be what 871 00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:31,319 Speaker 1: the perpetrator is going after based on enforcing gender, aren't. 872 00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,919 Speaker 1: It really doesn't matter what the person calls themselves. So 873 00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:39,799 Speaker 1: there are cases, for example, where heterosexually identified men have 874 00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:44,719 Speaker 1: been assaulted and called gay because they were coming out 875 00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,480 Speaker 1: of a gay bar with In reality they were the 876 00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:50,279 Speaker 1: beer delivery man. You know, they weren't. It was just 877 00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,920 Speaker 1: wrong place, wrong time, right. But they may be like 878 00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,279 Speaker 1: maybe they're small and thin and so they fit some 879 00:52:56,320 --> 00:53:00,640 Speaker 1: sort of stereotype, but it really doesn't matter. Or there 880 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:04,480 Speaker 1: was a there was a a young non binary person 881 00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:09,160 Speaker 1: here in Oakland recently that was writing a public bus 882 00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,480 Speaker 1: and got set on fire by this other boy on 883 00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,719 Speaker 1: the bus. Just a book was written on that. I 884 00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:17,120 Speaker 1: wish I could remember the name of it, but it 885 00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:20,000 Speaker 1: didn't rate. Yeah, this this person who identified his non 886 00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,920 Speaker 1: binary and by the pronoun they was just set on 887 00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:28,560 Speaker 1: fire because of the attire they were worring. So the 888 00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:31,960 Speaker 1: offender just thought, well, this person looks weird. Let me 889 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,799 Speaker 1: set them on fire. What that just brought up from me? 890 00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:40,000 Speaker 1: How when we read about these cases, they're usually so violent, 891 00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:44,320 Speaker 1: their stabbings, their beatings. Is a brutality that that happens 892 00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:46,480 Speaker 1: in these hate crimes? Often, I don't want to say always, 893 00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:50,319 Speaker 1: but very often we hear the accounts and it's really horrendous. 894 00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,480 Speaker 1: And do you think is there a correlation between like 895 00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,279 Speaker 1: the level of force that that is used and being 896 00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:59,799 Speaker 1: a bias crime or is it just my sort of perception? No, 897 00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:03,000 Speaker 1: you're right, I mean, obviously we have to say that 898 00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:06,919 Speaker 1: the accounts that get known about our ones because there's 899 00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:09,359 Speaker 1: something that stands out to the media about them. So yes, 900 00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:11,040 Speaker 1: the more brutal and violent ones are going to be 901 00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:13,480 Speaker 1: the ones that are publicized. However, there is something to 902 00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:18,520 Speaker 1: what you're saying. We call it forensic overkill, where there's 903 00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:22,840 Speaker 1: just way more violence and would be necessary to hurt somebody, 904 00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:28,520 Speaker 1: And in that case it often is there's uh strong 905 00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:35,640 Speaker 1: emotion at play. Alrighty, gotcha? Gotcha? So then what what 906 00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:40,440 Speaker 1: then can we do to dismantle these things so we 907 00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,160 Speaker 1: can end violence against trans people? I really mean, I'm 908 00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:45,520 Speaker 1: so sick of talking about this. It's triggering for me 909 00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:48,479 Speaker 1: to talk about this, and I just wanted to be done. 910 00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:50,520 Speaker 1: I know that's going to take time, but LA and 911 00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:53,279 Speaker 1: I know there's a lot of intersecting issues that cause 912 00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:58,000 Speaker 1: violence against trance people. Well, I think it's somewhat starting 913 00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:01,360 Speaker 1: to happen in the sense that that hyper masculine ideal 914 00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,960 Speaker 1: has been slowly eroded and chipped away in modern society. 915 00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:07,439 Speaker 1: I don't think it's as important as it used to be. 916 00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:12,160 Speaker 1: And I another really big meta idea that's important is 917 00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:17,040 Speaker 1: what's called the contact hypothesis that when people are in 918 00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:21,239 Speaker 1: contact and know somebody of a certain category, they start 919 00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:23,279 Speaker 1: to know that person as a human being and it's 920 00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:27,080 Speaker 1: harder to dehumanize them. So, for example, there's been researched 921 00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:31,920 Speaker 1: with gay people where if if heterosexual people know gay people, 922 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:34,160 Speaker 1: they are less likely to be prejudiced. Of course, it's 923 00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:36,800 Speaker 1: a little bit circular because people that are less prejudiced 924 00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:39,840 Speaker 1: tend to associate with other people that are more diverse. 925 00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:44,279 Speaker 1: But I think still only a very small minority of 926 00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:49,239 Speaker 1: Americans say they know any transgender people. So people like 927 00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:54,000 Speaker 1: yourself actually being on television and being very prominent that 928 00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:59,360 Speaker 1: starts to break down barriers and prejudices. So I you know, 929 00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:03,080 Speaker 1: I'm anti violence in every aspect of the word. And 930 00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:05,720 Speaker 1: from your research, what do you feel like the biggest 931 00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:08,600 Speaker 1: thing we can take away around what we should be 932 00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:13,480 Speaker 1: doing or could be doing in violence in general. I 933 00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:16,759 Speaker 1: know it's a high one. Well it's hard, I mean 934 00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,799 Speaker 1: because if you really want my real, honest answer, it 935 00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:23,360 Speaker 1: has to do with just the economic exploitation and the 936 00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:27,719 Speaker 1: poverty and the the scarcity that's going on that just 937 00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:31,600 Speaker 1: makes people feel so stressed and so battered in their 938 00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,440 Speaker 1: day to day lives that they are looking for a 939 00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:38,279 Speaker 1: scapegoat to take that out on. And I think if 940 00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:41,840 Speaker 1: we lived in a society that were like the the 941 00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,440 Speaker 1: wealth was more equally distributed, where people could have a 942 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:48,279 Speaker 1: comfortable life and not be so stressed out and be 943 00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:51,080 Speaker 1: committing violence against their children, which in turn those children 944 00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:53,480 Speaker 1: grow up and then become violent adults. I really think 945 00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:55,680 Speaker 1: that that's a big piece of it. And I just 946 00:56:55,760 --> 00:57:00,840 Speaker 1: really think that if we put more resources into helping 947 00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:05,919 Speaker 1: families and helping schools and helping social service agencies when 948 00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:09,400 Speaker 1: we see people stressed and in distressed, we could just 949 00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:14,080 Speaker 1: really cackle this problem. I am so glad you said 950 00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:17,200 Speaker 1: that because I mean, it makes so much sense. There's 951 00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:19,400 Speaker 1: so so much of what's going on in the country 952 00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:23,640 Speaker 1: right now is because the system has failed far too 953 00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:26,360 Speaker 1: many people. We live in a country that says, you 954 00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,400 Speaker 1: work hard, anything is possible. Right, if you work really, 955 00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:31,520 Speaker 1: really hard and keep your nose to the grindstone, you 956 00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:34,640 Speaker 1: can be successful. That's the American dream. And the majority 957 00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:38,120 Speaker 1: of people don't have that and can't experience that because 958 00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:42,680 Speaker 1: um of income inequality, because jobs have been shipped overseas, 959 00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:46,600 Speaker 1: because of automation, because of so many different factors, and 960 00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:50,760 Speaker 1: and to political parties who are beholden to corporations enrich 961 00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:55,200 Speaker 1: people and not to the betterment of the material conditions 962 00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:58,160 Speaker 1: of working people. And so people who are feeling just 963 00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:02,400 Speaker 1: destitute and like they have no way out, it's easier 964 00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,120 Speaker 1: to play on their fears and then they need somebody 965 00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:09,040 Speaker 1: to blame. And again, so they're blaming trans people, they're 966 00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:13,600 Speaker 1: blaming women, they're blaming people of color instead of blaming 967 00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:16,959 Speaker 1: a system that talks a good game, but it's not 968 00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:22,280 Speaker 1: really doing anything to make their material conditions better. No, 969 00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:24,800 Speaker 1: when you see I don't know where you live, but 970 00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:29,400 Speaker 1: where I live, it's just like this. The homeless encampments everywhere. 971 00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:33,919 Speaker 1: It's like some dystopian future. And when people are that marginalized, 972 00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:36,480 Speaker 1: they tend towards alcohol and drug abuse, and then that, 973 00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:42,680 Speaker 1: of course increases impulsivity and acting out, and and then 974 00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:45,760 Speaker 1: there's resentment against those people. And the whole thing is 975 00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:48,720 Speaker 1: just so, you know, it's huge, and I think that 976 00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:52,200 Speaker 1: people don't feel like they can really target the actual 977 00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:54,520 Speaker 1: forces of oppression because that's too big. You know, you 978 00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:56,800 Speaker 1: can't get the Jeff Desos where the heck is that, 979 00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:00,720 Speaker 1: you know, so just go after somebody on the street 980 00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:04,480 Speaker 1: next to you instead. Yeah, so we've you've given us 981 00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:06,680 Speaker 1: a lot to chew on, Karen. I don't know we've 982 00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:09,680 Speaker 1: we have any answers, really, but I'm so glad, you know. 983 00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:13,000 Speaker 1: I guess the conversation continues, and I think a lot 984 00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:14,920 Speaker 1: of it is hopefully. I think I would love to 985 00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,040 Speaker 1: put the parents out there to begin to think about 986 00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:20,920 Speaker 1: how they're raising their children right. So much starts there, 987 00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:23,040 Speaker 1: and then I think in schools as well, if we 988 00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:26,680 Speaker 1: can have education where we can have environments where it's 989 00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:31,360 Speaker 1: not not acceptable to bully kids because it starts so early, 990 00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:34,280 Speaker 1: and it started early for me, and it was relentless, 991 00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:36,880 Speaker 1: and I just I was never really protected. It was 992 00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:39,600 Speaker 1: like it was always my fault, right, Why why are 993 00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:41,439 Speaker 1: you acting that way? Why are you dressing that way? 994 00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,560 Speaker 1: So I hope that we can for everyone out there listening, 995 00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:47,040 Speaker 1: they can begin to envision a different way of raising 996 00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:50,480 Speaker 1: their children, a different way of parenting and educating children. 997 00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:59,680 Speaker 1: I think that's so critical. So I like to end 998 00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:03,120 Speaker 1: the podcast with this question that comes from my therapy. 999 01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:06,000 Speaker 1: It's thematic therapy based in the community resiliency model. It's 1000 01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:08,680 Speaker 1: the idea of both. And even though there may be 1001 01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:12,200 Speaker 1: something really challenging and in my life right now that's, 1002 01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:15,320 Speaker 1: you know, making me feel awful, something else is true. 1003 01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:17,520 Speaker 1: There's something else that's going on in my life that's 1004 01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:19,800 Speaker 1: neutral or positive that can help me to get through. So, 1005 01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:24,240 Speaker 1: Karen Franklin, Doctor Karen Franklin, for you today, what else 1006 01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:28,800 Speaker 1: is true? What helps you get through? Well? I I 1007 01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:36,120 Speaker 1: really think that at present, superficial circumstances notwithstanding, I see 1008 01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:38,400 Speaker 1: a lot of good in people. And I just see 1009 01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:42,200 Speaker 1: a lot of really nice young people who are really 1010 01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:49,880 Speaker 1: committed to being solid, non violent, non prejudicous people in 1011 01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:52,000 Speaker 1: the world. I got kids who are in their twenties, 1012 01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:57,880 Speaker 1: and people that age are so overall so intelligent, and 1013 01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:02,000 Speaker 1: even though that they feel depressed about the state of 1014 01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:06,480 Speaker 1: the world, they have a positive outlook on humanity and 1015 01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:09,080 Speaker 1: on their own role in the world, and they are 1016 01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:12,000 Speaker 1: not participating in oppression that they can help it. And 1017 01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:15,160 Speaker 1: I just I really find myself a little bit hardened 1018 01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:24,680 Speaker 1: by that. That's beautiful, That's absolutely beautiful. Thank you so 1019 01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,760 Speaker 1: much for being here today. Thank you for your research 1020 01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:31,440 Speaker 1: over all these many years, and gosh, I there's just 1021 01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:33,400 Speaker 1: a lot of work to do, but I'm excited that 1022 01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:36,160 Speaker 1: we can talk about how we can do it better. 1023 01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:38,680 Speaker 1: Are you on social media? Where can folks find you? 1024 01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:41,959 Speaker 1: I have I'm on Twitter, that's the only one. And 1025 01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:44,920 Speaker 1: then I have a website as well, and my website 1026 01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:48,720 Speaker 1: is www dot Karen Franklin dot com, so it's easy 1027 01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:51,440 Speaker 1: to remember. And I'm planning to put up a page 1028 01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:57,440 Speaker 1: of resources related to our conversation today, some recent reports 1029 01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:01,720 Speaker 1: on anti trans violence and some of the theoretical discussions 1030 01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:04,320 Speaker 1: that are happening, so that people can click on those 1031 01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:08,440 Speaker 1: links and get more background if they're interested. Amazing, So 1032 01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:11,920 Speaker 1: go to Karen Franklin dot com for all those resources. 1033 01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,520 Speaker 1: So we can do what we can to um in 1034 01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:18,480 Speaker 1: violence of all kinds, particularly against trans people. Thank you 1035 01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:30,040 Speaker 1: so much, Dr Karen Franklin. Thank you. It's great seeing you. Wow. 1036 01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:34,760 Speaker 1: This this topic is so intense. One of the things 1037 01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:37,720 Speaker 1: that Dr Franklin said that really sticks out to me 1038 01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:41,320 Speaker 1: is that she said, when it comes to group dynamics 1039 01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:44,400 Speaker 1: that it did not matter who the victim is as 1040 01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:48,120 Speaker 1: long as they can represent femininity. They could be a 1041 01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:51,720 Speaker 1: gay man, they could be a trans or non trans woman. 1042 01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:55,960 Speaker 1: It's the feminine that must be targeted that is so 1043 01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:59,600 Speaker 1: deep to me, and it reminds me of eve Ensler's 1044 01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:03,240 Speaker 1: Shin to the Vagina monologues. In two thousand five, she 1045 01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:06,360 Speaker 1: interviewed many trans women and added a new monologue that 1046 01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:09,440 Speaker 1: she titled they beat the Girl out of My Boy, 1047 01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:12,640 Speaker 1: or so they tried, And in all of her interviews 1048 01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:16,880 Speaker 1: with trans women who had experienced violence, she noted that 1049 01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:20,120 Speaker 1: it was the feminine that needed to be being out 1050 01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:25,080 Speaker 1: of these trans women. So eve Ensler's research, along with 1051 01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:31,080 Speaker 1: Dr Franklin's research, reaffirms how much femininity is what is 1052 01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:34,840 Speaker 1: under attack when we look at violence against trans women 1053 01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:39,440 Speaker 1: and violence against women and gender and sexual minorities. In general, 1054 01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:45,920 Speaker 1: and it's also highlights to me the close relationship between homophobia, transphobia, 1055 01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:51,880 Speaker 1: and misogyny. They are inextricably linked. So Dr Franklin has 1056 01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:55,480 Speaker 1: indeed added a page on her website full of resources 1057 01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:58,440 Speaker 1: based on this conversation. You can find the link to 1058 01:03:58,520 --> 01:04:02,280 Speaker 1: this the book she read, Friends to the Seven Bus, 1059 01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:05,280 Speaker 1: a true story of two teenagers and the crime that 1060 01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:09,080 Speaker 1: changed their lives, and other resources in our show notes 1061 01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:28,200 Speaker 1: for this episode. You know, I'm because I think it's 1062 01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:30,400 Speaker 1: important to say that I'm a huge advocate of disclosing 1063 01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:34,320 Speaker 1: right for my own safety and personally, but it's hard 1064 01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:35,960 Speaker 1: for me to tell other people what to do. But 1065 01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:37,920 Speaker 1: what I want to say to trans folks out there 1066 01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:40,840 Speaker 1: is that I hope that you understand that trans is 1067 01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:43,280 Speaker 1: beautiful and that someone can love you and should love 1068 01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:45,720 Speaker 1: you for who you are. So disclosure I think is 1069 01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:49,360 Speaker 1: important for that just to have love that is authentic. 1070 01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:51,680 Speaker 1: But it's also about your safety, right, so that you 1071 01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:54,720 Speaker 1: have to always make sure that you're safe before you disclose, 1072 01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:57,160 Speaker 1: and maybe that's begot text message or on a dating 1073 01:04:57,160 --> 01:05:00,480 Speaker 1: app or whatever, so that you're not in danger. You know, 1074 01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:03,400 Speaker 1: we are in a really violent culture and It's not 1075 01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:05,560 Speaker 1: our fault, but we have to do everything we can 1076 01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:10,400 Speaker 1: to try to stay safe and stay alive. Please okay, 1077 01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:17,280 Speaker 1: m M. Thank you for listening to Laverne Cox Show. 1078 01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:20,880 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Please rate reviews, subscribe and share 1079 01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:24,760 Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show with everyone you know. Join me 1080 01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:27,600 Speaker 1: next week when we talked to Dr Kristin Knapp, a 1081 01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:31,320 Speaker 1: pioneer in the field of self compassion, she explains why 1082 01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:34,720 Speaker 1: self compassion could be so hard for so many of us. 1083 01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:41,600 Speaker 1: Exhibit a me. Everybody always talks about self love. Honey, 1084 01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:44,919 Speaker 1: if you don't practice self compassion, you ain't our self love. 1085 01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:48,040 Speaker 1: Joined me for our conversation. You can find me on 1086 01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:51,480 Speaker 1: Instagram and Twitter at Laverne Cox and on Facebook at 1087 01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:58,560 Speaker 1: Laverne Cox for Real. Until next time, As always, stay 1088 01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:05,200 Speaker 1: in the The Laverne Cox Show is a production of 1089 01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:09,000 Speaker 1: Shondaland Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more 1090 01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:12,480 Speaker 1: podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, 1091 01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:16,080 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.