Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm
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Speaker 1: also listen to our radio show weekdays at two pm
Speaker 1: Eastern only on Bloomberg Radio. Well, and this is why
Speaker 1: we've had those conversations, and let's get into it about
Speaker 1: maybe at some point we're gonna have health facilities, hospitals
Speaker 1: that are COVID nineteen hospitals or facilities and those that aren't,
Speaker 1: so that people feel comfortable going in for routine visits
Speaker 1: and updates. Let's bring in dactor Dr Sandro Galia, Dean
Speaker 1: of the Boston University School of Public Health. Book is
Speaker 1: His book has pained uncomfortable conversations about the public's health, which,
Speaker 1: as Jason and I talked about earlier, is so timely
Speaker 1: considering some of the things that are being revealed or
Speaker 1: once again reminded and revealed, uh in terms of some
Speaker 1: of the weak points in our society. He's on the
Speaker 1: phone from Boston. Dr Galia. Nice to have you back
Speaker 1: with us, um. You know, it's been a few weeks
Speaker 1: since we've talked with you. You know, what are your
Speaker 1: thoughts about where we are, how we're handling it, and
Speaker 1: what we still need to do, especially for the less
Speaker 1: fortunate and the more vulnerable populations of our society. Well,
Speaker 1: first of all, thank you for having me, honest, always
Speaker 1: a pleasure to be here. I think as the pandemic proceeds,
Speaker 1: we are seeing more and more how this exposes fractures
Speaker 1: in our society. The what the pandemic first started, there
Speaker 1: were a lot of conversation about how the virus does
Speaker 1: not discriminated effects everybody. But it didn't take long for
Speaker 1: us to realize that the virus does discriminate. That yes,
Speaker 1: we are all at risk of the virus, but ultimately
Speaker 1: those who are more at risk are those who are marginalized,
Speaker 1: who are poor, who are people of color, who live alone,
Speaker 1: who are single parents, and those who die are those
Speaker 1: same groups. So what we're seeing is a world where
Speaker 1: groups that are honorable do not even have protections from
Speaker 1: something as widespread as a pandemic like this. And you're
Speaker 1: hearing this from data emerging from cities all over the
Speaker 1: country and really from all over the world. So I
Speaker 1: certainly hope that this is a wake up call for
Speaker 1: us that says, even in the context of a pandemic,
Speaker 1: we have created conditions where self have and health have
Speaker 1: not deviate at a time like this. And Dr Galia,
Speaker 1: how did we get here? I mean, how did it
Speaker 1: get this bad? Uh? And and was this something that
Speaker 1: always existed? It feels like it's been exacerbated in the
Speaker 1: last you know, call it ten twenty years. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: when you look at the data, it has been exacerbated
Speaker 1: probably in the last thirty to forty years, so about
Speaker 1: about forty years ago. This is important to to note
Speaker 1: the American health. American health was among the best of
Speaker 1: the high income world. Now today we are square squarely
Speaker 1: the worst. We have the squarely the worst health of
Speaker 1: any of our high income country peers. So we have
Speaker 1: life expectancy shorter. We have hired deaths from infector disease.
Speaker 1: Hired that's from from a non communicable disease, and we
Speaker 1: leave about five years of life expectancy on the table
Speaker 1: compared to other countries. So you know, I would ask
Speaker 1: you and ask every anybody listening. You know we have chosen,
Speaker 1: we have chosen to leave five years behind in life expectancy.
Speaker 1: And now you may be saying, well, I didn't choose that,
Speaker 1: but we did. You did, and I did because we
Speaker 1: have we have voted for policies that allow that to happen.
Speaker 1: So it's been about the past thirty to four years
Speaker 1: where our health as a country has been getting progressively worse,
Speaker 1: and it has brought us to a place where when
Speaker 1: something like this happens, it reveals this underlying truth. Now,
Speaker 1: this truth is with us at all times. The virus
Speaker 1: did not create that. The virus is just exposing it.
Speaker 1: And what specifically the policies and and and maybe the
Speaker 1: ones that could more easily than others be reversed. What
Speaker 1: what would you point to, Well, I think we we
Speaker 1: need need to really look at the from top to bottom.
Speaker 1: Would start with the fact that we have a system
Speaker 1: which ultimately accumulates resources and rewards those who have resources.
Speaker 1: That starts from our taxation policies, all the way to
Speaker 1: our employment policies, all the way to who gets sickly
Speaker 1: who doesn't, From the state of our education, from the
Speaker 1: state of our housing. If we really wanted to tackle this,
Speaker 1: we would say, how do we create a world where
Speaker 1: everybody has access to high quality education to allow us
Speaker 1: to change people's life trajectories, that everybody has access to
Speaker 1: stable housing, where we have a fair economy, to such
Speaker 1: that people who work hard can get jobs that puts
Speaker 1: them on the right track, and all of that ultimately
Speaker 1: would add up to creating much better life trajectories for people.
Speaker 1: That is so true because if you think about it,
Speaker 1: if you get a good education, you probably get a
Speaker 1: good job that also provides you with great benefits or
Speaker 1: good benefits in terms of healthcare, and us some benefits
Speaker 1: or some benefits. Right. But but we know what what
Speaker 1: amazes me and Jason and i um hosted a Qualities
Speaker 1: on it that we did here at Bloomberg and we
Speaker 1: were talking about, you know, how this virus is impacting
Speaker 1: the more vulnerable populations. As you said healthcare, the problems
Speaker 1: have been exacerbated. I thought you said forty five to
Speaker 1: fifty years. It's a long time. Why haven't we been
Speaker 1: able to figure this out. We have some of the
Speaker 1: best and brightest minds in this nation, public sector, private sector.
Speaker 1: We know the problems are there, They've been there for
Speaker 1: a long time. What's holding us back? Is it private sector?
Speaker 1: Is it public sector? Where's the problem? Well, it's a
Speaker 1: terrific question. I would point to all of us. I
Speaker 1: think we are holding ourselves back. Frankly because those of
Speaker 1: us who are in the riches and that means me,
Speaker 1: that means you have been too self involved. And frankly,
Speaker 1: the system serves us. Two well, there really is little
Speaker 1: incentive to push against the system that ultimately serves those
Speaker 1: who are dominating the cultural business conversation. And and that
Speaker 1: is and that is all of us. So we need
Speaker 1: to say, this is a moment in time which has
Speaker 1: exposed these underlying inequities, and which shows us that there
Speaker 1: is a country of health haves which is roughly the riches,
Speaker 1: and health have not, which is roughly the poorest, and
Speaker 1: say that is not the kind of country we want
Speaker 1: to live in now. We do not want to live
Speaker 1: in that kind of country because that is wrong. And secondly,
Speaker 1: because if there is another outbreak like this, it threatens
Speaker 1: us all so we're beginning to see with this outbreak
Speaker 1: that if some of us are vulnerable, all of us
Speaker 1: are vulnerable. And if this is not a wake up
Speaker 1: call a moment in time, I don't know what is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I kind of give up on humanity if it's not. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: let's be let's be optimistic. Let's see that we all
Speaker 1: see this as a turning point that it should be right.
Speaker 1: And so Dr Gla, let's let's continue to look through
Speaker 1: the lens if we can of this this specific outbreak.
Speaker 1: And I believe we've talked with you about this a
Speaker 1: little bit before. I mean the numbers in the hospitals then,
Speaker 1: so the number of admittances, certainly, the number of deaths
Speaker 1: I means, certainly skew much more toward more vulnerable populations
Speaker 1: as we are at this critical point. Every point seems
Speaker 1: like a critical point these days. But as we're at
Speaker 1: this point where we think about reopening and the dangers
Speaker 1: of a second wave, how do we best protect those
Speaker 1: who are most vulnerable given the system that we have now, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's an excellent question. I think the way to address
Speaker 1: that is by breaking the problem apart into his constituent parts.
Speaker 1: So number one is who gets the virus. Right, So
Speaker 1: we are seeing that minorities, people who are marginalized are
Speaker 1: more likely to get infected. Now why is that, Well,
Speaker 1: it's simply a function of the fact that it's harder
Speaker 1: to physically or socially distance if you have to go
Speaker 1: to work, if you have to write public transit, if
Speaker 1: you cannot work from home. All of those are factors
Speaker 1: that which you in contact with the virus make you
Speaker 1: more likely to get it. So let's step one. Now,
Speaker 1: once you have the virus, the people again who are
Speaker 1: in marginalized groups disadvantage groups, are more likely to die.
Speaker 1: That is probably a reflection of the fact of greater
Speaker 1: underlying health conditions, greater morbidity underlying So when you understand that,
Speaker 1: then the question becomes how do we deal with those
Speaker 1: two aspects. Well, I think on the first aspect, we
Speaker 1: need to make sure as reopening happens, that we have
Speaker 1: a clear risk stratification that people who are most at
Speaker 1: risk are most protected. And what does that mean. Let
Speaker 1: means saying that if we are doing physical spacing, diffusing
Speaker 1: physical density, that we particularly respect people who are at
Speaker 1: higher risk because they have underlying conditions, and that we
Speaker 1: make sure that we put in place opportunities for people
Speaker 1: who otherwise would be brought face to face with greater
Speaker 1: risk of transmission to work from home or not to
Speaker 1: be at work and still get paid for it. Now,
Speaker 1: you know, all of this is hard, but they represent
Speaker 1: fundamental changes in employment that we should be making anyway,
Speaker 1: and we should be using this as a moment to
Speaker 1: hold ourselves up to a mirror and say, how should
Speaker 1: we be structuring employment so that it's fair, reasonable and
Speaker 1: sustainable for all of us. When it comes to as
Speaker 1: you said, you know, we need to think about the
Speaker 1: stratification risk, the stratification those most at risk. Is this
Speaker 1: going to become part of our normal society? I mean no,
Speaker 1: are we're going to be consistently constantly faced with these
Speaker 1: types of viruses? Dr Galia. You know, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: very hard to say, right. These these viruses in some
Speaker 1: respects are not new. What what has been new about
Speaker 1: this one is that it has spread quickly and also
Speaker 1: that we were aware of it. I mean, when you
Speaker 1: look back to say, the Hong Kong flu, which was
Speaker 1: about fifty years ago, it was very similar to this one,
Speaker 1: and it killed more people than than than COVID is
Speaker 1: going to kill that was fifty years ago, let alone
Speaker 1: of course the Great Spanish Flu, which was a hundred
Speaker 1: years ago. So it's a question of to some extent
Speaker 1: there's randomness and there's luck in it as to whether
Speaker 1: or not there will be another virus, like there's two
Speaker 1: years from now, five years from our ten years from now.
Speaker 1: But the fundamental approach we should take is to say,
Speaker 1: what should we be doing to mitigate it if there
Speaker 1: is and when there is another virus, And we should
Speaker 1: be doing two things right. Number one is we shouldn't
Speaker 1: being sure that we have public health infrastructure that allows
Speaker 1: us to rapidly test contact race, screen, treat isolate as
Speaker 1: needed to contain the spread. This is number one. Number
Speaker 1: two is we should be paying attention to these issues
Speaker 1: we're talking about on this call, which is paying attention
Speaker 1: to the fact to make sure that we do not
Speaker 1: have an unhealthy population to begin with, making sure that
Speaker 1: we do not have a large proportion of people in
Speaker 1: the population who are essentially sitting ducks or getting really
Speaker 1: sick when a virus hits and becoming a reservoir of
Speaker 1: disease for all of us. That's what we should be doing.
Speaker 1: Let's continue our conversation now with Dr Sandro Galia. He's
Speaker 1: the dean at the Boston University School of Public Health,
Speaker 1: also the author of Pained Uncomfortable Conversations about the Public's Health.
Speaker 1: And Dr Galia, I have to ask you and Carol
Speaker 1: and I tease this. Just a minute or so ago,
Speaker 1: we have heard so much about telemedicine at this point.
Speaker 1: I was listening to a story on another radio station
Speaker 1: this morning talking about a huge increase even with GPS
Speaker 1: of essentially saying, look, you need to check up, you
Speaker 1: need this, you need some advice. Let's do a let's
Speaker 1: do a consultation over a phone and app whatever it is.
Speaker 1: Is that the new normal? And does it actually work?
Speaker 1: I guess it's really my basic question. Yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: a great question. And there's no reason to believe that
Speaker 1: that some and that a fair bit of telemedicine will
Speaker 1: not work. And medicine has been slow in adopting tele
Speaker 1: medicine approaches on things that you can imagine would work
Speaker 1: just fine using telemedicine. Now, there haven't been some systematic
Speaker 1: assessments of some of these approaches, and we have to
Speaker 1: be careful that we're not jumping wholesale to things that
Speaker 1: don't work. But the truth is that, perhaps from a
Speaker 1: silver lining point of view, an event like this pushes
Speaker 1: us to embrace technologies whose time has come. From the
Speaker 1: point of view, for example, things like tell up psychiatry,
Speaker 1: tell behavioral health, tell a regular checkups. These things you
Speaker 1: can imagine how they would work, and they would relieve
Speaker 1: the pressure of having to have physical contact and relieve
Speaker 1: some of the pressures on health systems. You know. The
Speaker 1: other side of this is that one of the worries
Speaker 1: at a moment like this is that because the health
Speaker 1: system is all so consumed with COVID, or at least
Speaker 1: with worrying about COVID, is that we are not paying
Speaker 1: attention to other conditions that should be seen by the
Speaker 1: health system. So introducing telemedicine, introducing telehealth as a way
Speaker 1: of making sure that people still get their regular checkups, um,
Speaker 1: that people are still talking to positions, particularly people are
Speaker 1: still tending to their mental health. This is a real
Speaker 1: important opportunity to do that. Yeah, um, and I do
Speaker 1: think I wonder if this moment is really going to
Speaker 1: kind of get us over the hump of accepting telemedicine.
Speaker 1: I just think it's amazing. We're doing conferences on air,
Speaker 1: we're doing broadcasts on air, like so much. And yes
Speaker 1: it's not the same as being in this in a
Speaker 1: studio or next to your partner or your your teams,
Speaker 1: but it's amazing how how real it feels and is
Speaker 1: the next best thing, I think, much better than we
Speaker 1: all anticipated. And hopefully that can apply to the medical
Speaker 1: community where I know I work a lot. It's really
Speaker 1: hard to get to see my doctors and I have
Speaker 1: to plan. It is much in advance. Hard for you.
Speaker 1: It's hard for you, and it's hard for me, and
Speaker 1: and there have been many structural barriers to that. I
Speaker 1: think there's a psychological barrier that doctors who are not
Speaker 1: used to doing using telemedicine, but also for EXAMP, the
Speaker 1: payment schedules have not allowed it. Like the Center for
Speaker 1: Medicaid Medicare Services just introduced the whole range of billing
Speaker 1: codes now that are allowed for tele behavioral health, which
Speaker 1: before physicians would not would not get paid for the
Speaker 1: doing tele behavioral health. So I think this moment is catalytic.
Speaker 1: It does allow the introduction of these approaches, but you know,
Speaker 1: Carl think to your point, we should make sure that
Speaker 1: we recognize that these are never going to be complete
Speaker 1: substitutes for frescal, for real, for real personal personal interaction.
Speaker 1: I mean, their compliments, but they're not substitutes well. And
Speaker 1: so having said that, you know, when I was thinking
Speaker 1: about this, when we first started talking, and Jason and
Speaker 1: I talked so much about wellness and this whole idea
Speaker 1: of you know, we really need to rethink and I
Speaker 1: know we're pushing towards at the medical community to be
Speaker 1: about keeping you well. And I think if you're doing that,
Speaker 1: going to your doctor staying well, you know, that would
Speaker 1: be an also important thing to kind of move all
Speaker 1: of this forward. It is and and I you know,
Speaker 1: I like these of the word well. Of course I
Speaker 1: like it because the title of my previous book was
Speaker 1: called well and But but the reason I did that
Speaker 1: is because I do think that ultimately that is the
Speaker 1: definition of health we should be going for. It is
Speaker 1: for the complete absence of physical and mental disease, so
Speaker 1: that people can go on and do and achieve in
Speaker 1: their life what they want to achieve. Health should ultimately
Speaker 1: be a means, not an end. It's a means to
Speaker 1: people living their full lives and living towards fulfilling their aspirations.
Speaker 1: So what we really should be doing, to go back
Speaker 1: to our earlier conversation, is creating the kind of world
Speaker 1: that generates health. So that's all of us on this call.
Speaker 1: Everybody listening can then get on with their lives and
Speaker 1: live their lives the way they want to. Yeah. Well, uh,
Speaker 1: definitely words to live by, for sure, and we, I
Speaker 1: think are all thinking more and more about our wellness,
Speaker 1: our general health, and hopefully that will be one of
Speaker 1: the things that is a residual effect and catalytic, as
Speaker 1: you say, Dr Galia, in terms of moving us forward.
Speaker 1: All right, Dr Sandro Galia, great to have you back
Speaker 1: with us. The dean of the Boston University School of
Speaker 1: Public Health also the author of a new book, Pained
Speaker 1: Uncomfortable Conversations about the public's health. I feel like we're
Speaker 1: having a lot of those, uh these days, maybe not uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: but certainly thoughtful, and we certainly appreciate its time. It's
Speaker 1: a very very busy time for anybody in the medical profession.
Speaker 1: We know that, yeah, totally, and I do. I love
Speaker 1: these big, broad conversations too, about thinking how can we
Speaker 1: do it better? And I think you're hearing a lot more,
Speaker 1: especially from the private sector, from the medical community, and
Speaker 1: I really do hope we continue those conversations and not
Speaker 1: only just talk, but actually make these changes. You're listening
Speaker 1: to Bloomberg Business Week and Carol Masser. You know one
Speaker 1: interesting thing I was just looking at. We're going to
Speaker 1: get a lot of tech earnings this week, obviously one
Speaker 1: of the biggest tech earnings weeks we've ever had. NASTAC
Speaker 1: only down about two point six percent for the year.
Speaker 1: Is that amazing? Incredible? Like, if you think about the
Speaker 1: swings that we've had, how quickly they've happened, that's just wild.
Speaker 1: And speaking of a tech world, I learned a new
Speaker 1: term from the story that we're about to talk about,
Speaker 1: age that comics and games. Did you know that? You
Speaker 1: know a C I did not know that before I
Speaker 1: read this, alright, Well, Joe Weber, Yeah, Joel Weber knew it.
Speaker 1: He's the editor of Bloomberg Business Week. He joins us
Speaker 1: on the phone for Brooklyn and Molly Shots. She is
Speaker 1: us technology editor for Bloomberg. She edited this story joined
Speaker 1: joining us on the phone from New York City. It's
Speaker 1: about a Chinese video site serving teens, but not just
Speaker 1: a c G as they say, But there's another element
Speaker 1: to this. Joel tell us about it, Well, a cg
Speaker 1: um kind of looks like the future to me, and
Speaker 1: it's definitely what the kids are into. Uh. And when
Speaker 1: we found out about this, um Billy Bee is the
Speaker 1: name of this Chinese site. The thing that really came
Speaker 1: across wasn't just like the A c G stuff, but
Speaker 1: it was the sort of the nationalism and maybe some
Speaker 1: propaganda that came along with it as well. Molly, what
Speaker 1: did we discover? Right? We discovered that. So this is
Speaker 1: the site despite bill be Like you said, it's been
Speaker 1: around for about ten years and it attracts all the
Speaker 1: you know, the most popular demograph, the gen D demographic,
Speaker 1: and they're on they're looking for the latest Japanese manga
Speaker 1: clips or maybe grund theft Auto and um. Now these days,
Speaker 1: what we're seeing is that increasingly they're able to get
Speaker 1: a little bit of um some uh Communist Youth League
Speaker 1: clips in there as well. So tell us a little
Speaker 1: bit about too, how people use it. I mean, this
Speaker 1: is a pretty active platform, right, so when somebody posts something,
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of engagement. Right, there's it's
Speaker 1: a platform UM. Like we said, it started out mostly
Speaker 1: for a CG and now it's morphed more to be
Speaker 1: like a YouTube site. They have a broad range of entertainment.
Speaker 1: It's news, it's entertainment, UM, it's chatting UM. Young people
Speaker 1: go on there for you know what you would expect.
Speaker 1: They want to be entertained, they want to maybe find
Speaker 1: out about a little bit about what's going on. But
Speaker 1: for the most part they haven't been on their you know,
Speaker 1: first school or for necessarily an education or hardcore news.
Speaker 1: But increasingly that's you know, in a sneaky kind of way,
Speaker 1: it's it's how it's turning well. And I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: it's very also political and some of the things that
Speaker 1: it puts out there on the platform from different UM
Speaker 1: groups is pretty provocative, right. They're they're you know that
Speaker 1: One of the things that they M had on their
Speaker 1: last year was a series UM depicting the life of
Speaker 1: German socialist philosopher Karl Marx M. His theories are widely
Speaker 1: taught in Chinese schools, and so they put this clip
Speaker 1: on there. UM. It was a clip produced exclusively for
Speaker 1: the platform by several state institutions, including the provincial Propaganda Department,
Speaker 1: and it shows a young Karl Marx dressed up or
Speaker 1: um and portrayed as a typical Japanese manga style protagonist.
Speaker 1: So this really it gets you know, kids where they're interested,
Speaker 1: which is in the manga, and then it's feeding them
Speaker 1: a little bit of the the theories that they they
Speaker 1: want to get across, the philosophies and the and the
Speaker 1: teachings that they want to get across. Another example, Um,
Speaker 1: they had UM a show that depicted a little rabbit
Speaker 1: UM honkering down. It was it was using cartoons and
Speaker 1: a cute little rabbit to depict you know that political
Speaker 1: and events of war. So these are some of the
Speaker 1: kinds of ideas that that they're putting in there in
Speaker 1: a in an animated way or in a storytelling way,
Speaker 1: but that are really sending a message. So Molly, UM. Obviously,
Speaker 1: of platform like this UM right now during the coronavirus
Speaker 1: pandemic is sort of UM, you know you've got captive
Speaker 1: audience to some extent, UM, So what kind of revenue
Speaker 1: um is this platform uh been seeing? And how is
Speaker 1: it faring the lake right there? So what they've found
Speaker 1: is that you know, it's it's good business, it's propaganda.
Speaker 1: They recently reported had their UM earnings that they reported,
Speaker 1: and they reported just a little bit more than two
Speaker 1: billion one or two two million dollars in revenue for
Speaker 1: their fourth quarter. That was up seventy from a year earlier.
Speaker 1: And most of that came from mobile game related sales,
Speaker 1: so that came first, and then some live streaming and advertising,
Speaker 1: but most of these you know, you're you're really seeing
Speaker 1: that the more they engage UM people on the site
Speaker 1: that it's it's bringing in the revenue they UM. They
Speaker 1: had an example two of a of a New Year's
Speaker 1: Eve UM show that they that they live streamed and
Speaker 1: that attracted huge audience and huge viewership, I think more
Speaker 1: than eighty million simultaneous viewers. They had an orchestra playing
Speaker 1: Harry Potter music, but also a chorus as soldier singing
Speaker 1: patriotic themes about fighting off Japanese invaders during World War Two.
Speaker 1: So the platform that's coming to mind, Molly, when you
Speaker 1: kind of talk about this a little bit that's just
Speaker 1: obviously also captain into the ton of the use is TikTok. Right,
Speaker 1: So how do these how do these two platforms, um,
Speaker 1: how do they compare from from a from a user's
Speaker 1: standpoint then, but also be from a modernization standpoint. I
Speaker 1: think from what I understand, I think TikTok is going
Speaker 1: to be a little bit more interactive. It's gonna be
Speaker 1: a you know, I mean, on TikTok, you can go
Speaker 1: and you can make your own video. It's really creative.
Speaker 1: You can do short clips, you can do long clips
Speaker 1: with yourself or other people. You can use content that's
Speaker 1: out there, create your own. This site is more, um,
Speaker 1: it's less. I think what I understand that about creating
Speaker 1: your own new content that rather than consuming content that
Speaker 1: other people can can post up there. So I think
Speaker 1: that's a little bit more the different this this one
Speaker 1: they compare to a little bit more like a YouTube
Speaker 1: style channel um as opposed to a TikTok type channel
Speaker 1: with that side of propaganda of course, for the healthy side,
Speaker 1: the health the side of propaganda. No, it's fascinating to
Speaker 1: think about. I mean, especially because we know that you know,
Speaker 1: certain trends start to gain momentum. I mean, TikTok is
Speaker 1: a great example, you know, gain momentum in China, and
Speaker 1: then they make their way to the United States and
Speaker 1: and it uh it all sort of builds from there.
Speaker 1: And I think about it a time where we really
Speaker 1: need global cooperation on something like this, just coming off
Speaker 1: the virus. We're gonna need it economically, and yet I
Speaker 1: feel like we consistently have these platforms that just create
Speaker 1: disconnects and division, and I don't think that's a good thing. Alright.
Speaker 1: Our thanks to Molly Shuts, us technology editor for Bloomberg News,
Speaker 1: joining us on the phone from New York City, And
Speaker 1: of course you'll Webbord, the editor of Bloomberg Business Week,
Speaker 1: joinings on the phone from Brooklyn. You're listening to Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. Well, Jason,
Speaker 1: we know the cover story of Business Weeek magazine last
Speaker 1: week was all about the reopening of the Chinese city
Speaker 1: where the virus started first started Wuhan. Also writing about
Speaker 1: Wuhan this week on the Bloomberg Bloomberg New Economy editor
Speaker 1: Old Director Andy Brown, who reminds us that when it
Speaker 1: comes to understanding the virus, Wuhan was the past, it
Speaker 1: is also the future, and he joins us on the
Speaker 1: phone in New Hampshire, by the way, in a conversation.
Speaker 1: It was picked up by major media outlets around the globe.
Speaker 1: Last week in a Bloomberg New Economy series, Andy hosted
Speaker 1: a conversation virtually with the Chinese ambassador and Australian Prime Minister,
Speaker 1: so hopefully we can get into that. They talked about
Speaker 1: U S China decoupling. Andy, great to have you back
Speaker 1: with us. Um, Wuhan, let's talk about that because we
Speaker 1: all are really watching that city very closely. Right. So
Speaker 1: this is the epicenter or was the original epicenter of
Speaker 1: the UH you know, COVID nineteen UH epidemic, which turned
Speaker 1: into an into a pandemic, and the city has has
Speaker 1: reopened after a fashion and you know it's a right now.
Speaker 1: Wuhan is a lesson to the world about how you
Speaker 1: go about reopening. And you know, there's so many there's
Speaker 1: this sort of easy feeling in the West, in the
Speaker 1: United States and Europe that somehow you sort of flip
Speaker 1: a switch and you go back to life as it
Speaker 1: was before. And the lesson from Mohan is that, um,
Speaker 1: that's just a fantasy, it's a dream. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: life in Mohan is grim it's a it's affects similar
Speaker 1: of life. Um. You know, the sacrifices and the costs
Speaker 1: of reopening that city are very high, and it means accepting,
Speaker 1: in Mohana's case, a degree of intrusion of the state
Speaker 1: in the individual life, which is just unthinkable. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: in in in the United States or other democracies. Um.
Speaker 1: You know. And it's not just Mohan, it's it's you know,
Speaker 1: the experience generally in East Asia opening up is similar.
Speaker 1: So you know how Hong Kong you've got these electronic
Speaker 1: monitoring bracelets. Taiwan will monitor your your cell phone if
Speaker 1: you're in quarantine. South Korea, you know, will publish vast
Speaker 1: amounts of data about about individuals who are suspected of
Speaker 1: carrying the virus or who have it, UM, and will
Speaker 1: publish this nationally um in a way which would be
Speaker 1: you know, sort of outrageous um to to two countries
Speaker 1: in the West. I guess you know, our story, it
Speaker 1: was a very good story out of Wuhan is just
Speaker 1: sort of a uh, it's a kind of a wake
Speaker 1: up call. It's saying, you know, you really need to
Speaker 1: read think about what you know, what are the consequences
Speaker 1: and and what sacrifices are you ready to make in
Speaker 1: order to go back to some version of of of
Speaker 1: of normal life. Well, because Eddie, it's such an important
Speaker 1: distinction too, because I feel like we've gotten our head
Speaker 1: around as best we can inconvenience, right, you know that
Speaker 1: like life is going to be different, and maybe we
Speaker 1: have to wear a mask, or maybe we can't go
Speaker 1: to certain play says, or maybe it's going to be
Speaker 1: a while before we get to do certain things. But
Speaker 1: there is a big difference, a big distinction between inconvenience
Speaker 1: and as you say, intrusion. You know the world very well.
Speaker 1: You just gave some really good examples. What's your sense
Speaker 1: of how Americans and Europeans will deal with some of
Speaker 1: these measures that you've described. I don't know. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, it's perhaps there is a halfway house. Perhaps
Speaker 1: there is a sort of a an opening light or
Speaker 1: a sort of a less intrusive um way of reopening safely.
Speaker 1: But I guess the you know, the question is that
Speaker 1: this needs to be um there needs to be a debate.
Speaker 1: I mean, people need to decide what they're ready to accept,
Speaker 1: the restrictions and the intrusions that they're ready to accept
Speaker 1: and where the where the god rails are, where the
Speaker 1: red lines are and I'm just not seeing that that
Speaker 1: debate right, um, you know, but that also the sort
Speaker 1: of um just the tenor the quality of life that
Speaker 1: I'm not sure people you know, if you the our
Speaker 1: reporting was very vivid out of out of Wuhan. Our
Speaker 1: reporters went through factories and discovered these sort of silent,
Speaker 1: sort of dystopian places where workers are not allowed to
Speaker 1: talk to each other when they're having lunch in case
Speaker 1: they inadvertently sort of spread the virus, and the elevators
Speaker 1: are closed and the workers have got a walk upstairs
Speaker 1: and constant, constant vigilance, sort of hyper awareness of the danger.
Speaker 1: This sort of you know, it's the specter of disease
Speaker 1: that shadows everybody. So you can go to it. You
Speaker 1: can go to a you know, a Starbucks in in Wuhan,
Speaker 1: but if you sit there, you're going to be told
Speaker 1: by security guards, um, you know, keep your distance, and
Speaker 1: they're going to tell you to readjust your face masks
Speaker 1: after you've take and a sip of coffee. You and
Speaker 1: that's after you've you know, everybody in in in China
Speaker 1: has is color coded, right, I mean, so you've got
Speaker 1: to you've got a COVID nineteen state. It is green,
Speaker 1: it's yellow where it's red, you know, and and and
Speaker 1: and there's a QR code, there's a bokode as you
Speaker 1: swipe in, so you know this is having swiped into
Speaker 1: two stop Bucks, having having revealed your COVID nineteen states,
Speaker 1: you're still treated, you know, as though you'll you'll sort
Speaker 1: of in in in some kind of a lock up,
Speaker 1: you know, Andy, And I think, more more so than
Speaker 1: ever before, we need global cooperation. And I do want
Speaker 1: to touch on your Bloomberg New Economy conversation that you had,
Speaker 1: I think over the past week, and just you know
Speaker 1: how that lack of cooperation, global cooperation is going to
Speaker 1: prevent the world from healing on so many different levels.
Speaker 1: And I do wonder in a society or in Eastern
Speaker 1: Asia where you can more easy only forced people to
Speaker 1: do stuff, versus the United States where everybody is you know, wait,
Speaker 1: I have my I have you know, rights to do
Speaker 1: whatever I want. Whether that holds back the Western economies
Speaker 1: from coming back from this for sure. So I mean
Speaker 1: the the the experience, the historical experience, of course, in
Speaker 1: in disasters is that the United States has has taken
Speaker 1: the lead in or precisely in order to coordinate this
Speaker 1: kind of global response, and it signally failed to do
Speaker 1: so this time. China has sort of this was one
Speaker 1: of the conclusions of our panel. China has kind of
Speaker 1: disqualified itself from from this role with because of the
Speaker 1: way that it botched the early uh you know, the
Speaker 1: that was the cover up in Wuhan and so on,
Speaker 1: and then this attempt to use medical diplomacy as an
Speaker 1: instrument of propaganda, um, and people don't really trust the
Speaker 1: numbers coming out of China, so you know, China hasn't
Speaker 1: come out of this as as a global you know,
Speaker 1: the conclusion really was that if there is going to
Speaker 1: be global cooperation and and it is as you say,
Speaker 1: utterly and absolutely essential. I mean, people need to get
Speaker 1: together to figure out therapies and ultimately a vaccine, But
Speaker 1: if we're going to get that kind of cooperation, it
Speaker 1: will occur in the absence of leadership from from China
Speaker 1: and the United States. So, you know, Kevin Rodd the
Speaker 1: former Australian Prime Minister, has this idea for I think
Speaker 1: he calls it a a group of seven, a grouping
Speaker 1: of countries including a number of countries in Europe, but
Speaker 1: specifically not including the U S and China. UM you
Speaker 1: know who who. And he's proposing that these countries form
Speaker 1: an alternative UM committee to save the world in effect.
Speaker 1: That is it incredible. And meanwhile, the relations just bilaterally
Speaker 1: between the U. S and China feel like they continue
Speaker 1: to to worsen and show no signs of getting any better.
Speaker 1: And that seemed to be a conclusion of of your
Speaker 1: panel to Andy, right, so that there was this sort
Speaker 1: of hopeful idea that um, somehow or other, you know,
Speaker 1: in the face of this existential threat, the United States
Speaker 1: and China might be able to at least temporarily bury
Speaker 1: their differences and and and you know, work together on
Speaker 1: a cure, on a vaccine. UM. And that doesn't seem
Speaker 1: to have That doesn't seem to have happened. Um. The
Speaker 1: Chinese ambassador Ski and Kai he said, look, you know,
Speaker 1: we we have to re examine the whole fundamentals of
Speaker 1: this relationship. There was a general acceptance around at the
Speaker 1: table of our panel that the relationship has now completely collapsed. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, and it and its bipartisan in the US
Speaker 1: of course, on the on the Democrat and and and
Speaker 1: and and the Republican side, with you know, both Trump
Speaker 1: and seemingly Joe Biden competing with each other now to
Speaker 1: be to be tough on to like China US. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's amazing, it is. It is pretty incredible. But as
Speaker 1: you say, there was that ray of hope, and I
Speaker 1: read something earlier this afternoon that was talking about how,
Speaker 1: you know, there seemed to be something of a truce
Speaker 1: between President She and President Trump, and that very quickly
Speaker 1: broke down at that level, at the at the highest level,
Speaker 1: but also at the level underneath both of those leaders.
Speaker 1: Andy Brown, thank you so much. Editorial director Bloomberg New
Speaker 1: Economy on the phone from New Hampshire, the Journal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you let me drive. Oh no, no, no, no, honey, please,
Speaker 1: I'll do the dyvel. I want to drive. Just drive, baby.
Speaker 1: Good questions trying the drive to the globe. Thanks, we'll
Speaker 1: try rush down. I just got about eleven minutes left
Speaker 1: in today's trading session. It is time for the drive
Speaker 1: to the close. Ron Carson is back with US, co
Speaker 1: founder CEO of the Wealth advisor Carson Group. Uh. They're
Speaker 1: based in Omaha, Nebraska, and that's exactly where we find
Speaker 1: Ron on this Monday. Ron, good to have you back
Speaker 1: with us. Um, how are you doing? Tell us a
Speaker 1: litle bit about life in Omaha right now? Well, Carol's
Speaker 1: great feedback back with you, and my heart goes out
Speaker 1: to everybody in New York. I know you guys have
Speaker 1: been hit especially hard. Um. You know I'm going on.
Speaker 1: I had two knee surgeries leading into this, so I'm
Speaker 1: week fourteen working from home. But I would say, um,
Speaker 1: companies functioning well, and then personally me and my family
Speaker 1: are doing doing really well. Well. I guess that was
Speaker 1: in part well time. I don't know if it knee
Speaker 1: surgeries ever totally well timed run, but at least it's
Speaker 1: set you up to be in the right position. What's
Speaker 1: the general sentiment around you know, sort of folks that
Speaker 1: you talked to the in Nebraska. I mean, we're always
Speaker 1: trying to take the temperature, especially given this I keep
Speaker 1: using this term sort of this checkerboard approach. It feels
Speaker 1: like that we're going to take state by state in
Speaker 1: terms of reopening. What's the what's the sense there among
Speaker 1: your neighbors? What I like about Omaha? And maybe Nebraska
Speaker 1: in general, as we're a bunch of rule followers. So
Speaker 1: you know, for the road cards, Um, everybody's out, you're
Speaker 1: walking down the sidewalk, they go clear on the other
Speaker 1: side of the street and uh, it's like it's not
Speaker 1: fifty feet at six feet um and I you know,
Speaker 1: so they're very much observing it the rules. On the
Speaker 1: flip side financially, though, A bit of concern for me is,
Speaker 1: you know a major case of fomo everybody's fear of
Speaker 1: missing out, you know, on this reflation that we've had
Speaker 1: because you know, people either had cash or raise some cash,
Speaker 1: you know, during the decline, and I'd say the rule following,
Speaker 1: but having a lot of time to sit around and go, gosh,
Speaker 1: I wish I would have put a lot more money in,
Speaker 1: you know at the quote unquote you know market low
Speaker 1: that we've had some as Yeah, I do wonder if
Speaker 1: we're gonna all look back at this. I mean, Jason
Speaker 1: and and I have had a lot of conversations. I've
Speaker 1: had these conversations at home that you know, you knew
Speaker 1: logically that certain companies were not going to come undone
Speaker 1: and that things were going to bounce back. It's just
Speaker 1: a matter of timing, and so for stocks that had
Speaker 1: run up, you know, just NonStop all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: share prices were essentially on sale. They were, and some
Speaker 1: really good companies and this was This is where I think,
Speaker 1: you know, for for required to run, we've had passive
Speaker 1: you know, just buy the market and not have to
Speaker 1: think about it has been the place to be. Now
Speaker 1: it's going to be surgical. It's going to be active
Speaker 1: because if you go back during the financial crisis, some
Speaker 1: companies became much stronger. Some companies gained considerable market share.
Speaker 1: I mean, look at Zoom, look at Amazon, look at
Speaker 1: these companies that are actually gonna unfortunately you know, uh
Speaker 1: they benefit from this you know, tragedy hitting our country,
Speaker 1: but you know it it is the act is that
Speaker 1: a lot of some of this demand is permanent, but
Speaker 1: most of the demand is just going to be deferred
Speaker 1: to a future date and then other companies are going
Speaker 1: to pick up the business from those companies unfortunately are
Speaker 1: going to survive. And so Ron talk to us about
Speaker 1: oil because you know, that's a story that I feel
Speaker 1: like again maybe plays a little bit differently depending on
Speaker 1: where you are in the country, depending on what your
Speaker 1: businesses and how you rely on it or don't rely
Speaker 1: on it. You know, we spent so much time I
Speaker 1: think in the past thinking about it visa v. Gasoline prices,
Speaker 1: that seems like less of an issue, although obviously demand
Speaker 1: plays into the equation here. But how do you think
Speaker 1: about oil from an investment perspective? Yeah, that's the number
Speaker 1: one topic right when we had oil especially had you know,
Speaker 1: the May futures trade negative, which I never fathomed and
Speaker 1: I've been in this business really forty years, could ever happen?
Speaker 1: You know. Now everybody's looking around saying this must be
Speaker 1: the buy of a live time, and I wouldn't be
Speaker 1: so sure. I mean, we've got true it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's beneficial to the consumers. We have lower energy prices.
Speaker 1: My CIO just told me he was running back from Chicago.
Speaker 1: Paid a bucket team here in Elmonts about a dollar
Speaker 1: forty a gallon. That's tremendous stimulus, right, you know, at
Speaker 1: least we're not spending as much, you know, and and
Speaker 1: ultimately that should be a tail one for the economy
Speaker 1: from investors standpoint. You know, you just saw you know,
Speaker 1: Diamond Offshore file for bankruptcy. There's gonna be a lot
Speaker 1: of other bankruptcies out there, and this is this is
Speaker 1: the major question is who can survive and how long
Speaker 1: will it be? And this is where you need to
Speaker 1: be surgical about the companies that you invest in. But
Speaker 1: I think the June contract um, you know, may trade
Speaker 1: uh as as down as much as a May contract did,
Speaker 1: especially if oil falls below ten, they increase the margin
Speaker 1: calls from I think it was six, he's either six
Speaker 1: or six fifty or barrel all the way up to ten.
Speaker 1: So if we see the contract trade blow thirt and
Speaker 1: watch out uh and and you've heard about we don't
Speaker 1: have nearly the demand and so we don't have a
Speaker 1: lot of places to put this oil, and that's what's
Speaker 1: causing the ron. Is it time for all of us
Speaker 1: to accept that, you know, we went from when it
Speaker 1: came to the energy market, soil specifically that of course,
Speaker 1: oil is a great investment play where you know, even
Speaker 1: though we talk about alternative fuels, it's still such a
Speaker 1: small percentage um and the world is growing and you're
Speaker 1: developing economies like China just coming online increasingly, so you know,
Speaker 1: we've gone from that to oh my god, we have
Speaker 1: just too much of this stuff, and we've got market imbalances.
Speaker 1: You know, you've got demand destruction as well as too
Speaker 1: much supply. Um, have we come to the end of
Speaker 1: the oil story? Are we getting closer to it? I
Speaker 1: think you hit the nail on the head, Carol. I
Speaker 1: think we're coming closer. I go. There's a university and
Speaker 1: follow out the called Singularity University, and it's a place
Speaker 1: where business CEOs around the world can come for a
Speaker 1: week and learn about you know, what are some of
Speaker 1: the trends people aren't talking about. In a year ago,
Speaker 1: they were talking about the fact that they think there's
Speaker 1: going to be more than a trillion dollars of carbon
Speaker 1: unused because of the alternative energy plays that are out there.
Speaker 1: And I and I, you know, I believe that you know,
Speaker 1: two things are happening. You know, we've made successfully we're
Speaker 1: shifting to these alternative energy sources which are falling dramatically.
Speaker 1: And the next generation cares about the you know, the
Speaker 1: the amount of the missions we've put out far more
Speaker 1: than any other generation we've had, so they're very very
Speaker 1: conscious willing even to spend a little more. So I
Speaker 1: think you're you know, the fact that we saw you
Speaker 1: know oil nearly had a hundred fifty bucks to barrel
Speaker 1: and then all the way down to a negative number.
Speaker 1: But I I just don't think it's going to be
Speaker 1: the play in the future that has been in the past.
Speaker 1: And just about twenty seconds here the FED excited worried
Speaker 1: about j PAL this week, not worried at all. I
Speaker 1: think the Fed's done a masterful job. In two thousand
Speaker 1: and eight treasuring of fed um really weren't top of it.
Speaker 1: They are this time. The only thing we think is
Speaker 1: they may expanse some of the programs which would be
Speaker 1: positive for the economy. All right, well, be well, we
Speaker 1: really appreciate it. Ron Conway out there in Omaha, good
Speaker 1: to catch up with you. Good luck with those new
Speaker 1: knees uh, and stay safe. It sounds like your neighbors
Speaker 1: are doing a good job with the social distancing. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening to Bloomberg Business Week. You can subscribe to
Speaker 1: the podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot com. You
Speaker 1: can also listen to our radio show every weekday at
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