Speaker 1: Hey, fam, I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the
Speaker 1: Red Table Pop Podcast, all your favorite episodes from the
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Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. Please don't forget to rate and review
Speaker 1: on Apple podcasts. On this r T T very special
Speaker 1: guests Cherie Once, the wife of Will, is at the
Speaker 1: table for an important conversation about toxic forgiveness, the unhealthy
Speaker 1: way we pretend to be over in. Do you think
Speaker 1: there's anything else we have yet to forgive each other for?
Speaker 1: I can remember sometimes that I really crossed the line.
Speaker 1: To quote the creator of Red Table that park. She
Speaker 1: marched all up in that house, like march right into
Speaker 1: that master bedroom. I was like, Lord Jesus, actress Janna Kramer,
Speaker 1: you found out he cheated with about thirteen women more
Speaker 1: m wow, I would imagine to get your madest hell.
Speaker 1: And I looked through the fall villains, like started calling
Speaker 1: these numbers. People think they know the entire story and
Speaker 1: they don't expert advice that will make you rethink how
Speaker 1: you look at forgiveness. Medick is on a mission to
Speaker 1: start an unforgiveness revolution. I'm having a whole moment. I'm sorry. Yeah, here.
Speaker 1: We are at d table Willows on tour and we'll
Speaker 1: be back soon. So it's just you and me, gam
Speaker 1: with a very special guests filling in from this Willow.
Speaker 1: Come on out here, Shari, thank you, no, thank you, Ray.
Speaker 1: This is a good one. This is as some of
Speaker 1: you may know, Shari is Trey's mother and was once
Speaker 1: the wife of will and we have developed a really
Speaker 1: nice sisterhood. But it hasn't been easy along the way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was, it was. It was a lot. And you know,
Speaker 1: as we're talking about toxic forgiveness today, sometimes we did
Speaker 1: have to fake it to make it. I mean, you
Speaker 1: and I have been in this process because we were
Speaker 1: baby since we were babies. Yeah, I'm trying to have
Speaker 1: a blended family and not really having a blueprint of that,
Speaker 1: like we really had to figure it out along the way.
Speaker 1: For me, it really was just about maturity, just not
Speaker 1: understanding the marital dynamic, like okay, well divorce papers are
Speaker 1: sent and people are over, then this is done. It's like, oh,
Speaker 1: I guess it ain't never done. No, we just didn't
Speaker 1: start right. Just so that was my biggest misconception, and
Speaker 1: that this woman is a part of this family Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like not only taking on trade, but Shari was
Speaker 1: coming along as exactly. And I think to when we
Speaker 1: started to blend. You are a mom, you know you
Speaker 1: didn't know what it was like to be a wife,
Speaker 1: to be connected. I'm imagining it definitely took some forgiveness
Speaker 1: on your part, because I can remember sometimes that I
Speaker 1: really crossed the line. It was one time I think
Speaker 1: Trey had had a play date and he had misbehaved,
Speaker 1: and I was like, we gotta sit down, we gotta
Speaker 1: talk about this trade. Can't be behaving this way, and
Speaker 1: you were like, let me set it up, let me
Speaker 1: give you another I literally walked in the house just
Speaker 1: to drop him off, and as soon as I walked in,
Speaker 1: Jade was like, listen, we gotta talk about his behavior.
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, get his daddy please. Why are
Speaker 1: you talking about what happens at my house right over here?
Speaker 1: Oh it didn't even happen at your behavior was at
Speaker 1: my house? Eactly? Oh my goodness. See it was all
Speaker 1: it was just a lot of of intertwining and it
Speaker 1: got really kind of detwining it out of orderness. Yes,
Speaker 1: there was a lot of good everybody the creator a
Speaker 1: red table. Yeah, it was out of line, but you
Speaker 1: didn't mean any harm. You were like, listen, we got
Speaker 1: to get him right right. And I remember one time
Speaker 1: you came in the house that you went into the
Speaker 1: master bedroom. You just looked around, Yes, you looked around.
Speaker 1: You marched into the master bedroom and you wanted to
Speaker 1: see what was going on, like how it was decorated
Speaker 1: all that. You marched back there and you were like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: I just want to see what it was early on.
Speaker 1: And I think you were just trying to just like
Speaker 1: I just need you to know who Queen Bee is
Speaker 1: around here, Okay, So I'm yes, and come up and
Speaker 1: here and look here. And I was like, I couldn't
Speaker 1: say nothing. She marched all up in that house like
Speaker 1: march right and to that master bedroom, and I was like,
Speaker 1: Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus, that was the house and that's
Speaker 1: what I knew too. I was like, well, damn, she
Speaker 1: didn't pick the house out. You know. I can't say nothing.
Speaker 1: And we were both very fiery. Yes, both of you
Speaker 1: were coming into this, you know, doing the blended thing.
Speaker 1: My only requirement was that you treated my son well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you did that, and your heart was always right towards him,
Speaker 1: wanting the best for him. Yeah, when I looked back
Speaker 1: at how much was put on us and how much
Speaker 1: was put on you because we were so young and
Speaker 1: it was so public and it was so fresh, it
Speaker 1: was like you really didn't even have time to adjust.
Speaker 1: That's the thing. You had no time. I didn't understand that,
Speaker 1: because you know, it's like a boyfriend. It's like if
Speaker 1: you're done with a joke and you're done, you're done.
Speaker 1: But that's not how marriage works. I don't think that
Speaker 1: that's how relationship work. A lot of times when there's
Speaker 1: a breakup, sometimes people tend to jump in very quickly
Speaker 1: into the next thing. And I learned that if I
Speaker 1: had to do it all over again, I would have
Speaker 1: take a beat. I would have definitely had taken a
Speaker 1: beat as far as putting myself within the dynamic of
Speaker 1: you guys, exactly, let's give this a year, let's let
Speaker 1: YouTube just lets you out whatever y'all have to figure out,
Speaker 1: especially when there's children involved. Yeah, I didn't understand it,
Speaker 1: but when you got it, but I remember you coming
Speaker 1: to me and you were tear, you were very emotional,
Speaker 1: and you said I just didn't know and Basically, what
Speaker 1: you were saying is I was in the picture too soon.
Speaker 1: I was I and you apologize to that. And it's
Speaker 1: interesting because recently I was in that same situation. Now
Speaker 1: it's a little worse. They were divorcing. What I didn't
Speaker 1: know is that she was very, very pregnant, uh, and
Speaker 1: we were all in the same space and she came
Speaker 1: and I was like, what am I doing here? It
Speaker 1: is way too soon? And I felt like I'm out
Speaker 1: of line, Like you just I need to give them
Speaker 1: because you never know what's going to have, so you
Speaker 1: don't you don't know. It's like, you know, I don't
Speaker 1: think anybody is really in their right mind to start
Speaker 1: making permanent decisions in the midst of something. So you know,
Speaker 1: it's divorces ain't no joke, right, So thank you because
Speaker 1: you've always been one to like, you know, I read
Speaker 1: I don't missed it to give me and we were
Speaker 1: able to move on. Yeah. I think we were able
Speaker 1: to have difficult conversations. We were always able to own up,
Speaker 1: and we knew that it was going to take the
Speaker 1: two of us to lead the way for the rest
Speaker 1: of us. Really when set the tone, yeah, absolutely, And
Speaker 1: remember we had our little books. Yeah, we had our
Speaker 1: little books. We don't have those books, do you. Of course,
Speaker 1: we had a journal that we would send back to
Speaker 1: one another, right, just kind of expressing things to one
Speaker 1: another that might not have been easy to talk about
Speaker 1: face to face. Yeah, that was your idea, and I
Speaker 1: thought that was just a brilliant idea because we set
Speaker 1: the tone in the pace and we influenced the whole dynamic.
Speaker 1: Let's work our stuff out. I've never heard of anybody
Speaker 1: doing that before. Yeah. My philosophy always was, how can
Speaker 1: I love Trey and not love the most important person
Speaker 1: in his life, which is his mother. You can't, You can't.
Speaker 1: And I knew that I can't say that I love
Speaker 1: Trey and not love his mother and be like, no,
Speaker 1: she can't be here. No. All that that is in
Speaker 1: a straight contradiction to me saying that I love Trey.
Speaker 1: That's really important for people to hear that. I'd have
Speaker 1: to say that you were probably one of the biggest
Speaker 1: instruments in regards to me having to really learn it
Speaker 1: wasn't always about me and to reach for a level
Speaker 1: of emotional maturity. Not thank you, because I really feel
Speaker 1: you gave me the grace to evolve and I thank
Speaker 1: you for that. Yeah, it was your patience, It was
Speaker 1: It was definitely quite a partnership because somebody we're gonna
Speaker 1: have words. She was looking at Okay, and then and you.
Speaker 1: I never forget you had on this spending up in
Speaker 1: this case. She was like, oh no, She was like,
Speaker 1: not not today. Do you think there's anything else we
Speaker 1: have yet to forgive each other for? Um, I hope not.
Speaker 1: I know right after all, I had after twenty plus
Speaker 1: years trait about to be thirty, right, I think we're
Speaker 1: committed to the process. Yeah, I'm committed to loving you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm committed to giving you grace like your family to me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure. So trade just that seconde I looked at you,
Speaker 1: I was like, Wow, it's it's straight. That's your angel.
Speaker 1: So speaking of forgiveness, we saw a post the other
Speaker 1: day from our R T T friend Nedra Glover to
Speaker 1: WAB that struck me. She said, toxic forgiveness is an
Speaker 1: unhealthy way that people pretend to be unharmed over it
Speaker 1: or forgetful of the offense. Forgiving to keep the peace
Speaker 1: or people pleasing is not healthy for your mental health
Speaker 1: or your relationship. She's got a point there. Absolutely not
Speaker 1: done that so much in regards to my codependent people
Speaker 1: pleasing self, So yeah, I know all about that. After
Speaker 1: Janna Kramer discovered her husband's infidelity, she found herself struggling
Speaker 1: with toxic forgiveness and self blame. Actress Janna Kramer is
Speaker 1: known for her roles in One Tree Hill and prom Night,
Speaker 1: Oh My God, You Have Kid. She took the music
Speaker 1: industry by storm when she was crowned the Academy of
Speaker 1: Country Music's New Female Vocalists of the Year. After a
Speaker 1: pattern of unhealthy relationships, it seems she had finally met
Speaker 1: the man of her dreams when she married NFL star
Speaker 1: Mike Cosson. Their highs were public good looks, great careers,
Speaker 1: to gorgeous children. Their lows made even more headlines. Jane
Speaker 1: and Mike were open about their struggles, including his infidelity
Speaker 1: and battles with addiction. They talked about it on their
Speaker 1: podcast Why Did You Cheat on Me? Like I was
Speaker 1: willing to have sex with you, so that's the part
Speaker 1: that stings me, and even wrote a best selling book
Speaker 1: about how they fought to stay together. Janna says she
Speaker 1: gave her husband countless times until she finally had enough.
Speaker 1: The two divorced just eighteen months ago. Wow, Hi, Hide
Speaker 1: it so nice to meet you. Nice, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: You're gorgeous. So let's just start with So. I'm like,
Speaker 1: so beautiful, Like I need to know every serum, every
Speaker 1: weed that from you too. So, Jenna, take us back
Speaker 1: to the beginning of your relationship with Mike. That was
Speaker 1: thirty and I really wanted a family. I had just
Speaker 1: been searching to find my worth for a man. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we've been there. There were flags in the beginning. He
Speaker 1: had cheated, you know, a month into dating. But I'm like,
Speaker 1: it's okay. I've cheated in past relationships and I didn't
Speaker 1: forgive myself for it. So I'm going to forgive you.
Speaker 1: I can make this work. We can grow together and
Speaker 1: in the marriage too. Every time you cheated, first, second, third,
Speaker 1: however many times, like I like, I forgive you. And
Speaker 1: my daughter was four months old when a girlfriend was like,
Speaker 1: something's not right with him, and I could sense it.
Speaker 1: I think I didn't want to leave it. I'm on
Speaker 1: the road, I'm traveling, like, like, how would I know
Speaker 1: when she does look through the phone bills, And I
Speaker 1: looked through the phone bill and started calling these numbers,
Speaker 1: and then that's when I found out the truth. And
Speaker 1: then you just went into a process of trying to
Speaker 1: heal the relationship. I came from a broken family, and
Speaker 1: my whole thing was I do not want my children
Speaker 1: to grow up in a broken house. I hated Christmas
Speaker 1: because I had to separate Christmas and that was stressful,
Speaker 1: and I want my kids under my one roof. And
Speaker 1: the thought of another woman raising my child was like,
Speaker 1: it ain't gonna happen. I know every ounce, like I
Speaker 1: know every part of her, like she's my child right right.
Speaker 1: You don't get to do what you did and then
Speaker 1: take my child away from me. Like I became like
Speaker 1: real big mama barrass I was like, figure out what
Speaker 1: this is, come back, man up and be a better man.
Speaker 1: Even when he would have a few months of no cheating,
Speaker 1: than something would happen and I'm like I'm back to that.
Speaker 1: That overwhelming, Like, oh my god, my family is felling apart.
Speaker 1: Now I need to eat and grasp tighter. And then
Speaker 1: I get like even more anxious attachment. And he couldn't
Speaker 1: breathe because I'm just like clinging onto him. So it's
Speaker 1: like it just became this cycle. I didn't forgive him, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I said, I trusted him and didn't trust him. I
Speaker 1: was still always like looking and like trying to find things,
Speaker 1: and I was living this like waiting for the next
Speaker 1: shoe to drop. And it wasn't good for my kids,
Speaker 1: you know. By the time we had then two kids,
Speaker 1: and you just put all this pressure ourself. So I'm
Speaker 1: gonna stay again and try now this next time not
Speaker 1: to be controlling. Maybe then he'll like not cheat on me,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, And I think that's part of that
Speaker 1: toxic forgiveness cycles. Not wanting to lose something that we valued.
Speaker 1: What made you feel that things would be different from
Speaker 1: him every time he did cheat and I would find
Speaker 1: out there'd be something different he would say that I
Speaker 1: would hold on to like I'm gonna get baptized, or
Speaker 1: I'm going to go to therapy every week, or I'm
Speaker 1: going to go to a meeting every It's like, I'm
Speaker 1: never going to do it again in the next one
Speaker 1: because now I'm going to be a better man. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I want that better man. Like that's
Speaker 1: like I waited for him. So finally the last time
Speaker 1: last April, when I caught him again. He's like, now
Speaker 1: I know I'll never do it again. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: and you know what, for that person, she's gonna be
Speaker 1: real lucky that you will. And that's when I left.
Speaker 1: So over time, you found out he cheated with about
Speaker 1: thirteen women more more got it? That has to be
Speaker 1: really painful. M hmm. It's okay. I know we're both
Speaker 1: in better situations, but I think about this year. My
Speaker 1: kids won't wake up at my house Christmas Day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's gonna hurt. Yeah, it's um, that's a hard one
Speaker 1: when when you're familial, dreams coincide with childhood trauma, you know.
Speaker 1: And that's like when I get like, that's not fair.
Speaker 1: He took away my dream too, of what I wanted
Speaker 1: from my family. Yeah, that's not fair. I would imagine, two,
Speaker 1: you're mad as hell. I shattered so many things and yeah,
Speaker 1: did you break your stuff for his? Yeah? So no,
Speaker 1: there was this like pantry door. He wanted to say
Speaker 1: pantry door. I'm like, would you like to label every
Speaker 1: door like bathroom door? So me and my girlfriends we
Speaker 1: took a bat to it and we just shattered it.
Speaker 1: And then you know, I destroyed all of his xboxes
Speaker 1: and all those things that he said was his only advice.
Speaker 1: I wrote all over his talks. I went real crazy
Speaker 1: if for a minute, sometimes that's just what it is. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think this is a big one, just in regards
Speaker 1: to toxic forgiveness. We always think the next woman will
Speaker 1: get the better version of him. Yeah. That and to
Speaker 1: get the man that I worked so hard for. I
Speaker 1: mean we did hours of therapy and retreats to try
Speaker 1: and fix what was broken. It's like, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: Like you don't get to get the healthy version like
Speaker 1: I've thought for that, right, I have a question, did
Speaker 1: you ever think that of about the better like her
Speaker 1: getting the better version of Like I'm glad you So
Speaker 1: what I think is when our union and he should
Speaker 1: be better because of me, m m m m, because
Speaker 1: you did so much. Yea, he should be better. So
Speaker 1: it might hurt to see you with the better version,
Speaker 1: but he shouldn't be worse because he's been with me.
Speaker 1: We should have learned something now in this stage of life.
Speaker 1: I think I left too soon. You know, that was
Speaker 1: a part of me trying to protect myself. God has
Speaker 1: let me just severed this now and and go right
Speaker 1: And if I was in a different time, I would
Speaker 1: never leave that soon. You know what I mean, you'd
Speaker 1: work at it whatever reason. We expect easy and we
Speaker 1: don't get easy. We're like, now, cheating is a whole
Speaker 1: other thing. That's a whole other thing. Why do you
Speaker 1: say that, Well, because I think, don't lie to me.
Speaker 1: I can when I get into a situation. Now, when
Speaker 1: I date, this is my mindset. And when we're in
Speaker 1: an alignment and we're in harmony, it's not going to
Speaker 1: be perfect. But I have the grace. I don't have
Speaker 1: the grace for a liar. I don't have the grace. That,
Speaker 1: for me, is the worst thing you can do if
Speaker 1: you come to me. I'm reasonable, like, let's let's work
Speaker 1: at it together. Don't don't have all these affairs. I
Speaker 1: begged him like two weeks before I found out. Just
Speaker 1: tell me, just tell me, please be honest. That's all
Speaker 1: I'm asking. I don't care if it's five. We can
Speaker 1: work through it. I know you and your ex talked
Speaker 1: about on your podcast his infidelity. We got the juice today.
Speaker 1: I was bawling last night. So do I mean to
Speaker 1: start go for it? A few days ago I got
Speaker 1: a d M saying that Mike cheated automatically. I'm in
Speaker 1: freak out mode. The really sucky thing about it is
Speaker 1: that my default can't go to There's no way where
Speaker 1: I can't just go I trust him a thousand percent.
Speaker 1: He would never do that, and I think that's where
Speaker 1: it's stung. So I started dm ng this person. She
Speaker 1: said he's got a secret device in her and Mike
Speaker 1: talk all the time and they think they're going to
Speaker 1: be together and they have unprotected sex, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, and I just started to kind of unravel,
Speaker 1: you know. I noticed something was up with with Janet
Speaker 1: the last couple of days. Once she finally told me,
Speaker 1: it crushed me because it sucks that she can't default
Speaker 1: to trust to me. It sucks that I've done what
Speaker 1: I've done in the past to create that in a relationship.
Speaker 1: Right now, my hope is that years down the line,
Speaker 1: if something like this happened again, she'd be able to
Speaker 1: bring it to me and we don't must be able
Speaker 1: to like laugh about it, you know, because there is
Speaker 1: that much trust in the bank. There's not been in
Speaker 1: the bank that good old one day in the future
Speaker 1: will laugh about it. I didn't know then he was cheating.
Speaker 1: But even in our book, the book that I thought
Speaker 1: he was honest and he was sober and being truthful
Speaker 1: with me, there's a chapter and there were a thousand
Speaker 1: percent did not tell the truth of what he was
Speaker 1: actually doing. Nad has to add a bit of extra embarrassment, embarrassment, pain, anger,
Speaker 1: frustration that you went on this public healing journey and
Speaker 1: even as you're on this public healing journey, he's not
Speaker 1: being forthright. Yeah. I know. That's a really good point.
Speaker 1: Like we had just became New York Times best selling
Speaker 1: authors about how we got past this, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I look like a idiot. Yeah yeah, But he says
Speaker 1: the podcast was a catalyst for more of his cheating
Speaker 1: because it made him feel like he always had the
Speaker 1: spotlight on him. So then I felt like it was
Speaker 1: my fault because if only we didn't have that podcast,
Speaker 1: he wouldn't have because the spotlight is on M he
Speaker 1: has to cheat. I'm confused. He felt pressure to be
Speaker 1: this like perfect, and not if I wanted to be perfect,
Speaker 1: I don't think i'd be cheating. And even now, as
Speaker 1: long as we don't talk about us in our relationship, great,
Speaker 1: But how rude. Is it though, that they make divorce
Speaker 1: people co parent. It's like we got divorced for ever reason. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's really hard. But with Will, we're better as co
Speaker 1: parents then we were as husband and why that's how
Speaker 1: it's shaping up to be. We came together to have try.
Speaker 1: It took the two of us to make camp, but
Speaker 1: then we shift it and you guys really enjoy each other.
Speaker 1: You guys really do take it under your skin, like
Speaker 1: because it's like never they take trips, I'm not there.
Speaker 1: They do their thing. No, you're don't have to explain that. Okay, well, yes,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that I'm not together. We're not together romantic,
Speaker 1: but like if he's going on a book tour and
Speaker 1: his mom is going and his sister and it's fun
Speaker 1: for me to watch them enjoy each other. It takes time.
Speaker 1: Though we're not having a trouble everyone. Let's just make
Speaker 1: that very clear because you know that will be the
Speaker 1: next it clear. Yeah, but I think a lot of
Speaker 1: times people are shamed into forgiving, you know, whether it's
Speaker 1: like if you're the other party, yeah, he like, when
Speaker 1: are you going to stop? Why aren't you gonna finally
Speaker 1: forgetting when are you going to stop talking about this?
Speaker 1: And like, well, it happened two weeks ago, give me
Speaker 1: a minute. And then I'm like, oh, now, yeah, I
Speaker 1: have to forgive now because if not, he's getting angry
Speaker 1: at me for not forgiving. Yeah, and then you have
Speaker 1: yourself absolutely and then different thinking I'm the reason for X,
Speaker 1: Y and Z happening after that because you didn't forgive
Speaker 1: me right, And people will say, oh, you're not being
Speaker 1: spiritual enough. Oh you don't really have paid you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. It's like all of these different components
Speaker 1: I think, you know, especially in this day where it's
Speaker 1: like everybody's into it's like give you. We don't give
Speaker 1: people enough time to have that process to bust up
Speaker 1: the pantry door. Yes, yes, because it is a process.
Speaker 1: It doesn't happen immediately. Sometimes it takes years. And the
Speaker 1: hard thing too is because you know we're open and
Speaker 1: we talk about things, people then slide in my damns,
Speaker 1: how how much longer are you gonna keep talking about it?
Speaker 1: When he already and they're like oh, shoot, they're right,
Speaker 1: It's like okay, when is it time to really let
Speaker 1: it go so that you can grow you. I also
Speaker 1: think when outside. People have their opinion their opinion, and
Speaker 1: they don't know the entire story. Even if you've taken
Speaker 1: time to tell part of your story, people think they
Speaker 1: know the entire story and they don't. So a lot
Speaker 1: of time and they don't. They can't, they can't. So
Speaker 1: people's projections upon your circumstance, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with you. So how do you
Speaker 1: let those voices go? Then? Because you can? You cannot.
Speaker 1: You cannot pay attention to that that has absolutely nothing
Speaker 1: to do with you, because they do not know your circumstance.
Speaker 1: And people have a lot of fun imagining. They love it.
Speaker 1: They love putting all the pieces together and what parts
Speaker 1: you've told and what parts he has told and you
Speaker 1: guys had all this. They love sitting there and chit
Speaker 1: chatting about what's happening in your world. And they have
Speaker 1: no idea specifically when it comes to intimate relationships, right,
Speaker 1: it's complex and complicated. Maybe that just wants to go
Speaker 1: like here's here it is like you know, you know,
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, as you continue through
Speaker 1: your healing process, you'll start to realize that people just
Speaker 1: do the best they can. That's really they really do
Speaker 1: you know people out here struggling, people in pain. People
Speaker 1: want you to get over because they want to get
Speaker 1: over it, or they want their spouse to get over it.
Speaker 1: It's all a mirror. I understand it hurting. So you
Speaker 1: know what, don't look at it. Oh my godness, ye
Speaker 1: you looking at all that stuff that it's a beautiful
Speaker 1: don't do that to yourself. DM stands for don't matter.
Speaker 1: But you know that's a process too. You're just you know,
Speaker 1: being able to not absorb what other people think about you.
Speaker 1: You know you're beautiful, intelligent, capable, loving. I can just
Speaker 1: tell sitting here with you, well, you don't have to
Speaker 1: listen to all that nonsense. And the more we believe
Speaker 1: that about ourselves, the more that that stuff is. It's
Speaker 1: like wonder woman, big old brass. Yeah, but it takes time.
Speaker 1: It takes time, it really does. Let's get natural to
Speaker 1: the table because she is on a mission to start
Speaker 1: an unforgiveness revolution. Wow O, our t friend. Nidra Gloverta
Speaker 1: is a nationally renowned relationship therapist in New York Times
Speaker 1: bestselling author Welcome Back. I love all these colors. So Nidra,
Speaker 1: tell us about your unforgiveness revolution. I sit down with
Speaker 1: people and I hear them really beating themselves up because
Speaker 1: they want to forgive it. I want to be over this.
Speaker 1: I want to get over it. And sometimes it is
Speaker 1: a process and when we force it, it's unhealthy for us.
Speaker 1: We're secretly mad. We are talking to fifty people about
Speaker 1: it behind the person's bag when we're like, hey, girl,
Speaker 1: can you believe the sheet? You know, all of that
Speaker 1: stuff that we do, when really what we're saying it
Speaker 1: is I'm not ready to forgive you yet. I don't
Speaker 1: know if I still need to be in this relationship
Speaker 1: because I'm really holding on to on thing. This was
Speaker 1: so big. I don't know if I could trust you again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And that's really hard to say it to people and
Speaker 1: stay it. We force ourselves to be in these situations.
Speaker 1: We want to keep the family together. Sometimes it is
Speaker 1: other people telling us you need to get over it,
Speaker 1: and we just don't have the capacity to do that.
Speaker 1: And that is okay, right. Sometimes it's that old school
Speaker 1: thing of you forgive and forget. Back in the day,
Speaker 1: you didn't talk about nothing. He just kept it moving.
Speaker 1: That's it. Nobody talked about nothing. Yeah, Well, hasn't it
Speaker 1: always been forgive a little bit, but pretend to forget.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, how do you forget these big things?
Speaker 1: Now you can forgive, but I haven't figured out a
Speaker 1: way to erase memory. How do those both coexcess them?
Speaker 1: It's not bringing it up. That is the grace that
Speaker 1: you're offering the other person. I forgive you. I don't
Speaker 1: have to bring these things up, but I also don't
Speaker 1: have to forget about it. Isn't forgetting too always thought
Speaker 1: forgetting meaning not that I'll never remember it again. The
Speaker 1: tool is for me not to keep thinking about it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that takes a lot of work to get
Speaker 1: to that point of not thinking about it as often.
Speaker 1: I say as often because we feel like once we've
Speaker 1: forgiven something, we should never be trigger right, But there
Speaker 1: are things that may continue to trigger us. If someone
Speaker 1: sends another d M, or if you see something, if
Speaker 1: you smell something, that memory may come back. So it's
Speaker 1: not that you know, I don't ever want to remember
Speaker 1: it again or never think about You may have a day,
Speaker 1: you may have a moment. The intensity changes over time too.
Speaker 1: I used to going to this one route so I
Speaker 1: wouldn't see a certain hotel that I knew that he's
Speaker 1: upped with some people with so I avoided it. But
Speaker 1: then that made it even worse than my chest. So
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm not gonna change my route anymore.
Speaker 1: And over time the intensity I was like, oh, there's
Speaker 1: a lofty therapy. Oh interesting. Yeah, it's it's like you're
Speaker 1: exposing yourself to the trigger as a way to the
Speaker 1: flatten it, right, Because sometimes when we avoid these things,
Speaker 1: we think I'll never be triggered because now I avoid
Speaker 1: it to some extent. It's really hopeful for you to
Speaker 1: be triggered a little bit and learn to manage and
Speaker 1: the manager and you have so many people like, oh,
Speaker 1: forget about it, get over it, move on, you know,
Speaker 1: to take the higher road. It could have been worse.
Speaker 1: I think we're very rushed about felix. I think everyone
Speaker 1: here grew up with some adults saying they hit you,
Speaker 1: forgive them, say I'm sorry. You're like this whole culture
Speaker 1: of like immediate, So we don't allow people like, well,
Speaker 1: she just pulled up my hair like two seconds ago.
Speaker 1: My head is still hurting. Can I have ten minutes
Speaker 1: to be mad at her? Immediately say you sorry? Well,
Speaker 1: let's talk about that for a second, because that's really interesting.
Speaker 1: I'm having a whole moment. I'm sorry, that's okay, No, no,
Speaker 1: go ahead, you're good. I'm having a whole moment with what. Well.
Speaker 1: One of the things that my son said to me
Speaker 1: when he started to do the work, one of the
Speaker 1: things that came up for him. He felt that he
Speaker 1: wasn't loved right. And I said, oh my god, your
Speaker 1: father loved you. What are you talking about? He said,
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about him, I'm talking about you. I said,
Speaker 1: you didn't feel loved by by he So we had
Speaker 1: a conversation. He said that I didn't care about his feelings.
Speaker 1: That's what it boiled down to. When he was little
Speaker 1: and he would fall or something would happen, he'd be
Speaker 1: disappointed because it was around so many women. I would
Speaker 1: be like, you're okay, So I would cheer him on
Speaker 1: instead of just sit in that space with him and
Speaker 1: just be there how you feel it's okay to feel.
Speaker 1: Maybe about eight months ago doing my work, I said,
Speaker 1: d him, you're so right. I didn't care about your
Speaker 1: feelings because I didn't care about mine. I didn't know
Speaker 1: how like I was always rushing myself. You're okay, You're okay,
Speaker 1: You've got to be stoic and you have to be
Speaker 1: tough and you have to get through life. But it
Speaker 1: was him saying this, and I realized, Wow, he was
Speaker 1: I didn't have the capacity to care about his feeling.
Speaker 1: Is not that because I didn't have the capacity to
Speaker 1: care about mine? And how rushed we are through things,
Speaker 1: I'm an autopilot. I'm not even real. Yeah, that's how
Speaker 1: we were brought up. Were brought up strong, strong mothers
Speaker 1: that were just like, no, yeah, you don't have the luxury, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you need to be tough. So often we're like, you're okay, okay,
Speaker 1: move through it. We don't even know what we feel, right,
Speaker 1: So what does a healthy version of forgiveness look like.
Speaker 1: I think it is the acceptance of the event. It
Speaker 1: is learning to be less angry, feeling less consumed, but
Speaker 1: feeling flat for some things that that might not be possible. Okay,
Speaker 1: And with Janna, you would say she doesn't necessarily ever
Speaker 1: have to forgive her ex. Yeah, forgiveness as a choice,
Speaker 1: And just because we don't forgive a person, we can
Speaker 1: still be kind, we can be pleasant. I think we
Speaker 1: believe that unforgiveness is being mean towards people. You can
Speaker 1: be kind and I forgive. You can be kind and
Speaker 1: not like people. You can be and not like them
Speaker 1: and they don't have to know about that. So that
Speaker 1: forgiveness is for yourself. It is for your emotional process.
Speaker 1: It is it is you accepting the situation as it is.
Speaker 1: I don't want to come undone when I see this person.
Speaker 1: It's not you know what, I forgive him. Now we
Speaker 1: can sit down together. You may never want to sit
Speaker 1: down with this How can I show up in this
Speaker 1: space despite what this person has done? But I also
Speaker 1: know when things, certain things don't sit right where I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: some past office coming up, Like I'm not going to
Speaker 1: be able to have that family dinner that we talked about,
Speaker 1: you know, like let's let's reschedule that for a later time,
Speaker 1: because if when I'm in that place, it's not going
Speaker 1: to be good for anyone, and then I'll just be
Speaker 1: like angry. So are you guys able to have family
Speaker 1: donor So We've had a few and some have been
Speaker 1: great and others I'm like, that didn't sit That doesn't
Speaker 1: feel good. It makes me sad when I left because
Speaker 1: I'm going home and my kids are there, you know.
Speaker 1: But I don't think I'm ready for like an every
Speaker 1: once a month thing. It's interesting because you fell and
Speaker 1: you hurt your ankle, right, you would give it time
Speaker 1: to heal. We can see the swelling, but our heart cannot.
Speaker 1: We see that, right? Yeah? Do things always heal or
Speaker 1: does it sometimes not heal at all? Yeah? I think
Speaker 1: about things as healing and not always healed, because we
Speaker 1: are we heavy on the e d healed and I'm like,
Speaker 1: but yesterday you must have been unhealed at five o'clock yesterday.
Speaker 1: Now you you, you're back in healing and you're gonna
Speaker 1: be here. So I think sometimes we we get very
Speaker 1: fixated on being done with done with the work, and
Speaker 1: I have forgiven. It's like I am forgiving. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: am healing, I am doing better, right, I'm not done. Yeah,
Speaker 1: That's why I got the ampersand tattoo. It's an ant
Speaker 1: because I can be healing and hurt. I can be
Speaker 1: in pain and hopeful. You can be upset one moment
Speaker 1: and you can be laughing at another moment, and it
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that you have to do anything about either
Speaker 1: of those those emotions you can sit with both right,
Speaker 1: that's really important that I really want to say that
Speaker 1: one more again because you can be both things. Well,
Speaker 1: you know what, this has been a powerful table and Janna,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. And Nedrew, you know we always
Speaker 1: love having you at the table. Thank you, Cherie, my pleasure.
Speaker 1: It's like free therapy, I know. To join the Red
Speaker 1: Table Talk family and become a part of the conversation,
Speaker 1: follow us at facebook dot com slash red table Talk.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of Red Table Talk podcast,
Speaker 1: produced by Facebook Watch, Westbrook Audio, and I Heart Radio.