1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch us 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business app, or listening on 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: demand wherever you get your podcasts. 5 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 2: I'm June Grosso in New York with Wendy Benjaminson in DC, 6 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 2: sitting in for Joe Matthew. Former President Donald Trump took 7 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 2: the witness stand today in the case where his business 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 2: empire is at stake, and he repeatedly sparred with the judge. 9 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: At one point, Judge Arthur Angeron asked Trump's attorneys, can't 10 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 2: you control your client? And it seemed to only get 11 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 2: worse from there, Wendy, he once again held a little 12 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 2: mini press conference before he started his testimony, talked about 13 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 2: everything from the new poll out to of course, this 14 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 2: being an unfair prosecution. And I have to say it 15 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 2: sounded a lot like that in the courtroom. 16 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 3: It did. 17 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 4: It absolutely sounded like that in the courtroom. He was 18 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 4: giving campaign speeches. He was talking about how the judges 19 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 4: unfair to him and has always been unfair to him, 20 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 4: and all the sort of airing of grievances that we 21 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 4: know and love from Donald Trump, and the judge was 22 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 4: really it seemed to me like on the edge of 23 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 4: his patients, where he was actually threatening to dismiss Trump 24 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 4: as a witness and then issue a negative inference. And 25 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 4: I'm not a lawyer. We'll have to ask our guests 26 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 4: about that. But that doesn't sound good. It sounds like 27 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 4: it means the testimony went south. 28 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 2: Well, you know, the judge has been at the edge 29 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 2: of his patients for almost the entire trial, certainly was 30 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 2: last week with some of the gag orders. And we 31 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 2: will bring in our guest, Jim Zyron. He's a former 32 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 2: assistant United States Attorney for the Southern District. Host of 33 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 2: conversations with Jim Zyron on PBS. So, Jim, I want 34 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 2: to just tell you one exchange here. Trump says, I'm 35 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 2: sure the judge will rule against me, as he always does, 36 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 2: and the judge responds, you can attack me, but answer 37 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 2: the question. And that was went downhill from there. What's happening? 38 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: I mean, does it matter the judge I think knew 39 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 2: what was going to happen here? 40 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,399 Speaker 5: Well, of course it matters. Trump has not conducted himself 41 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 5: the way a defendant should conduct himself or a witness 42 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 5: should conduct himself in a case before the court. He 43 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 5: doesn't have to respect the judge, but he has to 44 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 5: respect what the judge represents, which is the rule of law. 45 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 5: And that's what's wrong with Trump and trump Ism. That 46 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 5: is undermining our justice system. And for him to take 47 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 5: the stand and issue this kind of rant, which is 48 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 5: not responsive to questions. First place, it hurts his case 49 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 5: because the judge can draw inferences based on the nature 50 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 5: of his statements and his refusal to answer questions. And secondly, 51 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 5: it's improper. It shows no respect for our justice system 52 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 5: or the rule of law, and that's a very serious problem. 53 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 4: Well, Jim, I've got two questions for you. One is 54 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 4: here Wendy here in Washington. The one please explain to 55 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 4: us what a negative inference means when he threatened to 56 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 4: throw Trump off this Dand but also you quoted a 57 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 4: judge in your op ed in The Hill newspaper recently 58 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 4: saying that no defendant would be able to get away 59 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 4: with some of the things that Trump has said. And 60 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 4: Trump complains that everyone's being extra hard on him because 61 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 4: he's Trump. Do you think he's actually getting an easier 62 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 4: time than Joe Blow from Queen's would get if he 63 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 4: were sitting in the defend witness chair today. 64 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 5: I think Joe blow from Queen's or you arrived from 65 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 5: whatever burrow we come from. A witness has to have 66 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 5: respect for the court and respect for the process. And 67 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 5: the judge is the boss in that room, not Donald Trump, 68 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 5: not anyone else. If he has some disagreement with the 69 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 5: judge's rulings, the remedy is to take an appeal. But 70 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 5: the remedy is not to go into these political rants, 71 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 5: which he's been doing. 72 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, but he gets away with it. And this is 73 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 2: a judge trial. There's no jury there watching what's happening. 74 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 2: This A lot of this is for the reporters who 75 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 2: are in the courtroom. And he gets away with it. 76 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: I mean, let's face it, it's already an upheel battle 77 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: for him in this trial. The judge is already found 78 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: fraud here, so it's a question of damages. And you 79 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 2: know how much his testimony really weighs in. I'm not sure. 80 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 5: Well that's right, and he is going about this in 81 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 5: a way that is highly improper. I think if for 82 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 5: anyone else, the judge wouldn't find him in contempt. And 83 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 5: I think if it goes any further, the judge needn't 84 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 5: clappingm and irons and send them to Rikers Island. The 85 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 5: judge will say, the next time you go into one 86 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 5: of these rants, it's going to cost you a million dollars. 87 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 5: The second time, it's going to cost you five million dollars. 88 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 5: And you do it again, it's ten million dollars. You'll 89 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 5: see how fast he shuts up. Yeah, but actually he 90 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 5: has the money in any event, Do you, Jim. 91 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 2: Do you really think that the judge so far has 92 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 2: fined him five thousand and then ten thousand. I mean, 93 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 2: how high can you go up on the next one? 94 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 5: Well, that's chicken feed. But I'll bet Trump isn't paying 95 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 5: for it anyway. I'll bet it's being paid out of 96 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 5: some political pack, some donor who thought donating the money 97 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 5: for political purposes, not for fines. 98 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 4: Well, and that, actually, Jim, is an excellent point about 99 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 4: the political nature of this. I mean, Trump doesn't care 100 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 4: if it costs him a million dollars of his legal 101 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 4: defense fund, you know, as long as he can make 102 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 4: the political points. 103 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 3: Because June's right, there's no jury in the room. 104 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 4: But we're all reading stories about it we're all glued to, 105 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 4: you know, watching him with his little gaggles in the courthouse. 106 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 4: And these are as much campaign stops as there would be, 107 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 4: you know, standing in front of the butter cow and 108 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 4: at the Iowa State Fair. 109 00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 3: So I how much. 110 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 4: And the justice system deal with the political sort of 111 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 4: pontificating in the political circus that's going to go on, 112 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 4: not only in this trial, but in the four criminal 113 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 4: trials to come. 114 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 5: Well, the justice system, the justice system has to be 115 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 5: malleable and has to adapt itself to the situation. George 116 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 5: Washington would never have found himself in this situation. And 117 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 5: we haven't had a president of the United States in 118 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 5: all our history who has been charged with ninety one 119 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:37,119 Speaker 5: felonies in four indictments in four different courts to state 120 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 5: to federal and the justice system, the justice system will 121 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 5: just have to learn to cope with it. And they 122 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 5: will cope with it. 123 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 2: Don't you think that it'll be different when he's at 124 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 2: a trial where there's a jury, that the judge will 125 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 2: be more careful there to make sure that this doesn't 126 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 2: happen if he takes the stand, even I mean, this 127 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 2: is aal so he had to take the stand when 128 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 2: called by the attorney the Attorney General's office. But in 129 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 2: a criminal case, he may not take the stand, and 130 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 2: I think that the judges will be stricter when there's 131 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 2: a jury there. 132 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 5: I think the judges will be stricter. And you know, 133 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 5: in mafia cases we've had unruly defendants who have made 134 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 5: comments when they did not take the stand, and the 135 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 5: judge actually gagged them in front of the jury. And 136 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 5: so this precedent not only for gag order, but for 137 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 5: gagging him so they can't interrupt the proceedings. He has 138 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 5: to have respect for the proceeding. 139 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 4: And while that's true, I think they also need to 140 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 4: politically for themselves, for Letitia James, for any of the 141 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 4: elected officials there, need to show a little bit of 142 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 4: deference to a former president, don't they, even if he's 143 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 4: not popular in New York City? 144 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 5: They would, Well, he's a private citizen like any of us. 145 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 5: The office he once held demands very high respect. He's 146 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 5: not comported himself in a way that goes with the 147 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 5: word respect. I mean, he's been rational. He's engaged in 148 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 5: these harangues against the court personnel, against prosecutors, all to 149 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 5: serve his own political ends. And the Justice Assistant will 150 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 5: reach a point where it won't tolerate it well. 151 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 4: And I wanted to ask you about something just a 152 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 4: little bit different, the collision between the political calendar and 153 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 4: the trial calendar. Eileen Cannon down in Florida on the 154 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 4: Document's case, which actually seems to be the clearest of 155 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 4: all the cases, she's now sounding amenable to maybe delaying 156 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 4: the trial beyond May, maybe even giving in to Trump's 157 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 4: request that it'd be after the election. What would be 158 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 4: your take on how that would work and how would 159 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 4: it change the case legally? If he were tried after 160 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 4: the election and won. 161 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 5: Well, assuming he won the election, all these cases would 162 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 5: disappear because he would either pardon himself, which means the 163 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 5: end of all the federal cases, or he would direct 164 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 5: his attorney general, since he's already said that if he 165 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 5: gets in he's going to have a politicized Justice Department, 166 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 5: and he'll direct his attorney general to drop the cases, 167 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:31,079 Speaker 5: and they'll drop the cases. So that's what he's banking on. 168 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 5: This New York civil case is one of the most 169 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 5: threatening cases because it may strip him of his net 170 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 5: worth and prevent him from conducting business in the state. 171 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 5: Of New York. 172 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: Well, let me ask you this about the other cases. 173 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 2: Is that why it's important that the Georgia case go forward, 174 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 2: because that would be a state conviction and he couldn't 175 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 2: pardon himself from that. 176 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,839 Speaker 5: He could not pardon himself either from the Georgia case 177 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 5: or from Alvin Bragg's Stormy Daniel's case in New York. 178 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,439 Speaker 2: Those I was aboarding that one on purpose, the weakest 179 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 2: of the case. 180 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,079 Speaker 5: Those, I don't know that it's the weakest. The false 181 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 5: statements are very clear. The question is going to be 182 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 5: enhanced into a felony, and I think you can, but 183 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 5: that is the weakness. However, it's true we can't pardon 184 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 5: those offenses. But there's no way that a local prosecutor 185 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 5: is going to bring to trial a sitting president or 186 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 5: even the president elect. It's just not going to happen. 187 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 2: There is some room, though, because the trial that was 188 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 2: supposed to go forward a couple of weeks ago they 189 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 2: all set, they all pled out on that. So now 190 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 2: there's some room in that calendar perhaps to bring the 191 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 2: case earlier. 192 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 5: There is, but no trial date has been set, and 193 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 5: I think if a trial date is set, you're going 194 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 5: to have other defendants who will plead guilty, and the 195 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 5: defendants will remain are going to be Trump, Giuliani, Mark Meadows, 196 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 5: maybe one to others. Will be a very manageable trial, 197 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 5: and it can certainly occur before the election. The real 198 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 5: problem is that if he's convicted of all these indictments, 199 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 5: he's still qualified to be the president of the United States. 200 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 5: Why because the framers of our Constitution never dreamed that 201 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 5: there would be a president or a candidate for president 202 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 5: like Donald Trump. Lawless, contemptuous, disrespectful of the rule of law. 203 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 5: He is a rogue candidate. He would be a rogue president. 204 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 5: He said if he gets in, he's going to terminate 205 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 5: the Constitution to stay in office. He said, he's going 206 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 5: to weaponize the Justice Department to get at as political enemies. 207 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 5: We've never had that before. And our Constitution, which was 208 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 5: framed in seventeen eighty nine and the amendments in seventeen 209 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 5: ninety one, are just not geared to deal with it. 210 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 5: The one hope of disqualifying him unless the Republican Party 211 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 5: wake up and decides not to nominate him. Though in 212 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 5: hope of disqualifying him, as the case in Colorado and 213 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 5: Minnesota where voters have brought cases as they haven't actually 214 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 5: twenty one jurisdictions to disqualify them. 215 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 2: But those cases are real uphill battles. There are so 216 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 2: many different issues there that the plaintiffs have to win 217 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 2: in order to win those cases. Do you really see 218 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 2: those cases as stopping him from being on the ballot. 219 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 5: I see those cases as going to the Supreme Court, 220 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 5: because if just one state holds that he's disqualified, the 221 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 5: Supreme Court is going to have to make a decision 222 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 5: as to whether Section three of the fourteenth Amendment of 223 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 5: the Constitution disqualifies Donald Trump, and they don't have to 224 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 5: find that he physically engaged in the insurrection by force. 225 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 5: The history of the Fourteenth Amendment shows that people have 226 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 5: been disqualified based on speech. The simple statement that he 227 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 5: plans to terminate the Constitution if he gets in office 228 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 5: in order to stay in office violates Article two of 229 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 5: the Constitution and violates Section three of the fourteenth Amendment. 230 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 5: I don't think it's an uphill case because there are 231 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 5: a lot of issues that have been read. 232 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 2: The weight of authority says it's an uphill case. I mean, 233 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 2: there hasn't been a case at that level, at the 234 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 2: appellate level at all. It's an open question, an open 235 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 2: constitutional question that the Supreme Court, as you say, will 236 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 2: have to decide that's true. 237 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 5: It's an open constitutional question. Is it's an open constitutional 238 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 5: question as to whether he has blanket immunity and from 239 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 5: crime for everything he did in office he claims he does. 240 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 5: The Supreme Court has never passed on that. But it 241 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 5: would seem to me that the logic of the constitution 242 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 5: is that he does not have blanket immunity. 243 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 4: So jim switching to another untested le legal practice, or 244 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 4: at least novel legal practice. We got a whole bucket 245 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 4: full of them today. Is John Eastman going on sixty 246 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 4: minutes last night. He is a defendant in the election case, 247 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 4: and he went on sixty minutes and laid out a 248 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 4: whole defense for himself, you know, opened himself up to 249 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 4: all sorts of questions about how, you know, the things 250 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 4: that he did legally for Donald Trump to try to 251 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,479 Speaker 4: overturn the twenty twenty election work perfectly within his rights. 252 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 3: And he went on and on in the sort of defense. 253 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 4: If you were his defense attorney, would you have advised 254 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 4: him to go on sixty minutes while under indictment and 255 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 4: awaiting trial. 256 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 5: Absolutely not. And it's hard to imagine a defense attorney 257 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 5: whoever would have advised him to go on to if 258 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 5: you don't want your clients speaking until the time comes 259 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 5: for him to take the standard trial. If he does 260 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 5: take the standard trial, Eastman himself is a seasoned lawyer. 261 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 5: Why he went on television and made these statements, It's incomprehensible. 262 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 5: It's just like Trump, who goes on television and incriminates himself. 263 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 2: Well, we'll find out more. I'm sure about that, Thanks 264 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 2: so much. That's Jim Zarren, former Assistant US Attorney for 265 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 2: the Southern District of New York. Coming up, we're going 266 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 2: to be talking about voters in the five battleground states 267 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: preferring Trump to Biden. This is Bloomberg. 268 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch the 269 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: program live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, the 270 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: tune in app, Bloomberg dot Com, and the Bloomberg Business App. 271 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 272 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 273 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 2: Hello, I'm June Brosso in New York with Wendy Benjaminson 274 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 2: in DC sitting in for Joe Matthew. Voters in five 275 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: battleground states favored Donald Trump over President Joe Biden. That's 276 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 2: according to a New York Times Siena College poll voters 277 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 2: in the battleground states, and they trusted Trump over Biden 278 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 2: on the economy, foreign policy, and immigration. Joining us now 279 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 2: are Bloomberg Politics contributors Jeanie shan Zano and Rick Davis. Genie, 280 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 2: is it too soon for the Biden administration to worry 281 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 2: about these or is it time to worry? 282 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 6: It is time to worry. And I am a worrier 283 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 6: by nature, June, So I say that with all due respect. 284 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 6: You know, this is very very similar actually to what 285 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 6: we found with the Bloomberg pole that came out a 286 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 6: few weeks ago. So there is, you know, really not 287 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 6: much distance between these two poles, both looking at the 288 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 6: battleground states, and Biden has a real challenge on his hands. 289 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 6: To only be up within a margin of ERA plus 290 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 6: two in Wisconsin doesn't bode well. That said, you know, 291 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 6: he has long had a struggle with critical constituencies. Young 292 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 6: people who I talk to all the time, African Americans 293 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 6: now the Arab of population in the United States, so 294 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 6: there are signs that he has trouble. 295 00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 3: That said, I. 296 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 6: Take a little bit exception to how this has been 297 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 6: portrayed as Trump versus Biden, only because Trump hasn't been 298 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 6: in the news that much as it pertains to the election. 299 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 6: His focus has been on his legal challenges and whining 300 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 6: and complaining about his treatment in the court system. That's 301 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 6: pretty much what he's been on air talking about. And 302 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 6: I have to say many people agree with him on 303 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 6: those things. And so I think once people start to 304 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 6: listen to your previous guests and others the things he 305 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 6: is saying openly about how he is going to if 306 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 6: he has ever reelected, use the federal government's power to 307 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 6: seek revenge and retribution, they may have a slightly different view, 308 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 6: at least enough of them in these battleground states to 309 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 6: make a difference. But that, by the way, is not 310 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 6: a heck of a way for an incumbent president to run, 311 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 6: but it may at this point be his best hope. 312 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 4: Well, I want to come in here in hello Jennie, 313 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 4: and I wanted to ask you specifically about the democratic numbers. 314 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 3: Then we can go back to Trump like. 315 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 4: But the the numbers on Biden have been consistently across 316 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 4: the New York Times, and thank you for mentioning it. 317 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 4: The Bloomberg News Morning Consult boll of last week, which 318 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 4: showed similar in these swing states, like we know Trump's 319 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 4: gonna I mean, Biden's gonna win California. We know Trump's 320 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 4: probably gonna win Texas and places like that. In these 321 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 4: swing states that will drive the election. Biden is not 322 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 4: doing well. And as you said, he's not doing well 323 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 4: among young voters who we counted on last time, among 324 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 4: African American voters who we counted on last time, among 325 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,880 Speaker 4: Latino voters. It's that they're you know, all over the map. 326 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 4: So Democrats have a tendency to stick with the horse 327 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 4: that they expected to win two years ago. And is 328 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 4: there any point at which the Democrats and I think 329 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 4: I know the answer to this, are gonna say, you know, 330 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 4: this guy's just not gonna win. We're gonna give the 331 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 4: country back to Donald Trump. Maybe we should look at 332 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 4: some of these others, or is it just too darn l. 333 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 6: You know, we have heard that, I mean, we heard 334 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 6: David Axelrod come out over the weekend. We've heard Dean Phillips, 335 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 6: We've heard others. I think the reality is timing and otherwise. 336 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 6: Joe Biden is the nominee unless he chooses to withdraw 337 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 6: his name and allow the field to open up. And 338 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 6: there's several reasons for that. The primary, you know, the 339 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 6: filing deadlines. The other reality, though, is that other Democrats, 340 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,679 Speaker 6: you know, Andy Basheer should he win tomorrow, Josh Shapiro, 341 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 6: Gavin Newsom, Gretchen Whim or other potential people who might run, 342 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 6: Kamala Harris, nobody wants to be responsible for pushing Joe 343 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 6: Biden aside and allowing Donald Trump a space and an 344 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 6: entry to walk in. So so many factors couple, you know, 345 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 6: together means that unless Biden withdraws or God forbid, something happens, 346 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 6: illness or otherwise, he will be the nominee and Democrats 347 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 6: will rally to him. The question is, I think, do 348 00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 6: they stay home in a general if he's the not 349 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 6: because they're just you know, not excited or enthusiastic, or 350 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 6: do they come out and you know, the reality also 351 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 6: of American politics is unfortunate. I think this race will 352 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 6: be decided by one hundred thousand people plus or minus 353 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 6: in five or six states. Quite frankly, the rest of 354 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 6: us don't matter that much, and that's no way to 355 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:20,919 Speaker 6: run a democratic election. But that's the way we do 356 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 6: it here. 357 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 7: Rick. 358 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 2: Do you think all this angst by the Democrats over 359 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 2: whether someone should step in for Biden, whether there should 360 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 2: be you know, a different nominee, is that hurting Biden's 361 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 2: numbers too? 362 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 7: Probably not. I mean it doesn't get enough circulation June 363 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 7: to you know, have like rank and file voters being 364 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 7: able to respond to these kinds of things. 365 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 2: Doing me then, because I've heard so much about it already, Well, 366 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 2: you got to get out of the Upper west side. 367 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 3: I mean that's the first upperside. 368 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 2: But that's okayside. 369 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 7: I'm sorry, but anyway, Yeah, no, I think it says 370 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 7: it's what's really bother him are the fact that one 371 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 7: they got to see through the filter of his age, right, 372 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 7: And we know a lot of Democrats are very concerned 373 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 7: about an eighty year old president, eighty one year old 374 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 7: presidential candidate, an eighty two year old president, right. I mean, 375 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 7: like these are the things that are sort of first, second, 376 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 7: and third on their lists. And then they get to 377 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 7: the economy and Democrats aren't happy with the economy. I mean, 378 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 7: these numbers in the Times Santa pul reflective of the 379 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 7: Bloomberg a Morning Console poll. I mean, almost half of 380 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 7: black voters, normally a core constituency of the Democrat Party 381 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 7: are are rating the president is wanting on economic issues 382 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,479 Speaker 7: over that with people under thirty, as Genie was talking about, 383 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 7: you know, and so like, these are sort of core 384 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 7: Democratic constituencies that have a beef with the president one 385 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 7: on his age and then two on his performance in 386 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 7: office on the economy. Anything after that is just sort 387 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 7: of you know, small ball in politics. Because sure, I mean, 388 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 7: you know, he's got the back of the party on abortion, 389 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 7: but less than ten percent of the voters in these 390 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 7: swing states think abortion is the number one issue. So 391 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 7: he just doesn't have the right deck of cards. The 392 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 7: guy needs a new deck of cards. 393 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 4: So Rick, going back to Donald Trump for just a minute. 394 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 4: One of the interesting points in that New York Times 395 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 4: Sienna College poll was that Trump's indictments and his trials 396 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 4: aren't turning off Republicans and the independence who might support him, 397 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,639 Speaker 4: but a conviction would A conviction would make at least 398 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 4: six percent of those voters decide they better vote for 399 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 4: Biden because Trump would be a convicted fella and that might. 400 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 3: Be enough to swing the election. 401 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 4: But you know, one, I guess I'm sort of proud 402 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 4: of voters who believe in innocent until proven guilty. But 403 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 4: do you really think you know that that is finally, 404 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 4: after all this time, the tipping point and Trump's enduring popularity. 405 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 7: Yeah, I wouldn't even say after all this time when, 406 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 7: because the reality is the people who will flip on 407 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 7: a conviction into the Democratic column are independent voters, mostly 408 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 7: women who were originally Biden voters. I mean, like, the 409 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 7: reason Biden's not winning in these states is because independent 410 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:26,479 Speaker 7: voters have basically gravitated to Donald Trump. And they're not 411 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 7: permanent Trump voters. These aren't like the rural white males 412 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 7: without a college education who make under fifty thousand dollars 413 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 7: a year. They're not going anywhere for Donald Trump conviction 414 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 7: or otherwise. But what could happen is that if these 415 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 7: trials go poorly, certainly independent women, especially in the experbs 416 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 7: and suburbs, could decide. You know what, I'm not happy 417 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 7: with Biden. I'm not happy with inflation. I'm not happy 418 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 7: with the current economy, which is why I'm sitting on 419 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 7: the Republican ballot right now. But like I cannot, I 420 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 7: can not afford to give my vote to a person 421 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 7: as a convivicted felon. So I mean, these are the 422 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 7: horrific situations for the president to be in because he's 423 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 7: now relying on the justice the system to win a 424 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 7: presidential race. I mean, June, I'm glad you're here on 425 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 7: the show today because only you could explain to us 426 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 7: what the real risks are inherent in that strategy. 427 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 2: Jeanie, I want to ask one question about how the 428 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 2: issue of abortion is going to play into the presidential race. 429 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 2: Do you think it will affect the presidential race. 430 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 6: We're going to get a preview of that tomorrow night 431 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 6: in places like Virginia, Ohio, you know, some other states. 432 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 6: Six states have gone pro abortion rights since the Dobbs decision. 433 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 6: And I think tomorrow is going to be a test. 434 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 6: Do voters, particularly Democrats, put aside their lack of enthusiasm 435 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 6: for Biden, their frustration with the economy and go out 436 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 6: and say abortion is important enough that we will get 437 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 6: out and vote Democratic because they've promised to protect it. 438 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 6: Another thing to watch, I would say is Governor Youngkin's 439 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 6: message in Virginia. He's got a really different and interesting 440 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 6: message on abortion than many Republicans who are defensive. He's 441 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,239 Speaker 6: gone a little bit on the offense. So if that 442 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 6: pleas may help Republicans. But answer your question, yes, I 443 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 6: think it is critical to watch abortion. 444 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 3: In the poll. 445 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 6: It was the one area where Joe Biden was doing 446 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 6: better than Donald Trump when it came to an issue. 447 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound on podcast. Catch us 448 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot Com, the 449 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business App, or listening on 450 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: demand wherever you get your podcasts. 451 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 8: Welcome to the second hour of the Fastest Show in Politics. 452 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 8: I'm Kayleie Liones with Wendy Benjaminsin. Today we're in the 453 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 8: driver's seat while Joe Matthew takes a day off, and 454 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 8: with every new week brings us closer and closer to 455 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 8: a deadline in Congress. November seventeenth, the six now, so 456 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 8: that's eleven days by my account. Days seems like it 457 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 8: might be enough time to get things done, but I'm 458 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 8: not really clear on what exactly it is they're going 459 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 8: to try to get done by then to keep the 460 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 8: government funded. So maybe it's not that much time. 461 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 4: Well, I think you have a lot more faith than 462 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 4: perhaps I do right now in the state of Congress's 463 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 4: ability to get anything done. How long did it take 464 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 4: them just to get a speaker in the House, that's true, 465 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 4: So they have eleven days. They are not anywhere close 466 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 4: to agreeing on whether the israelid should be tied to 467 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 4: spending cuts, whether the Ukraine age should be tied to Israel, 468 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 4: whether any of it should be tied to the US 469 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 4: Mexico border security funding. I mean, there's very little agreement 470 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 4: here except some general notion that, yeah, we ought to 471 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 4: give Israel some money right. 472 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 8: Now, right, And it's unclear exactly how they do that 473 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 8: that the Senate can agree to in the first place, 474 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 8: because the Senate wants to tie Israel with other things 475 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 8: that it doesn't seem like the new speaker, Mike Johnson 476 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 8: is super interested in tying it too. 477 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 3: So it becomes a. 478 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 8: Question not just of storting things out internally in the 479 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 8: House of Representatives, which as the past speaker proved time 480 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 8: and again, is very hard to do, it's then reconciling 481 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 8: it with the other Chamber and making it something that 482 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 8: President Biden will sign when it comes across his desk. 483 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 4: That's right, and there will have to be some real 484 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 4: jiu jitsu going on for this to happen by November seventeen. 485 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 4: But then, of course they all want to get out 486 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 4: of town for Thanksgiving, as all of us do. So 487 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 4: what's what's gonna how long this is gonna last, or 488 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 4: what's gonna happen? 489 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 3: I don't know. 490 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 4: Mike Johnson does seem to make some noises suggesting he's 491 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 4: interested in a continuing resolution, so maybe maybe there will 492 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 4: be one that they can work out. 493 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 3: We'll have to say. 494 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 8: The question is will it be clean? Will it come 495 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 8: with spending cuts that might might be not super appetizing 496 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 8: to Democrats in the other chamber? Or could we see 497 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 8: a ladder continuing resolution? Even though none of us really know. 498 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 3: What that means. 499 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 8: Has anyone sworned out the definition? 500 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 3: Not a single person. Maybe mcmilvany can do it. 501 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 8: Okay, well, let's ask him. Mickmilvany is with us now. 502 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 8: We always appreciate him joining us on Monday. So he's 503 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 8: a man of many titles, as we always tell you. 504 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 8: Former Acting White House Chief of Staff under the Trump administration, 505 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 8: former OMB director and of course founder of the House 506 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 8: Freedom Caucus as a former congressman from South Carolina. That 507 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 8: good to see you. We always appreciate your time. How 508 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 8: do you think this shakes out? What do you think 509 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 8: happens to keep the government funded? And can you please 510 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 8: tell me what a laddered CR is? 511 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 9: I think so, hello, okay, clearly run Joe off, which 512 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 9: I approve of. So that's fine. The what I this is, 513 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 9: what I'm hearing is that there is some support for 514 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 9: a semi clean, clean continuing resolution. This is coming from 515 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,400 Speaker 9: even from some of the Republican Conservatives who would never 516 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,479 Speaker 9: have voted for that under Kevin McCarthy, but think they 517 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 9: might be able to do it under Mike Johnson. The 518 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 9: words I keep hearing are what we trust Mike Moore, 519 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 9: et cetera, et cetera. He's new on the job, et cetera. 520 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 9: So we'll come in some slack. So there are some 521 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 9: discussions about a CR that would take you through either 522 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 9: the end of the year or early into next. That 523 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 9: laddered concept is interesting and as best I can tell, 524 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 9: or's best anybody seems to be able to tell, Is 525 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 9: it instead of doing a CR for the whole government, 526 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 9: you would do a CR and try and slice it 527 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 9: up into pieces that align with the twelve spending bills. 528 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 9: So there would be a CR for Defense, a CR 529 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 9: for HHS, a CR for State Department operations, a CR 530 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 9: for the VA, that type of thing, And that way, 531 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 9: if they did pass one or two or more of 532 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 9: the appropriations bills in that period of time, that would 533 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 9: sort of then drop into the spot created by that 534 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 9: piece of the laddered CR. Does that make any sense 535 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 9: at all? Now that I try to say it out 536 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 9: loud for the first. 537 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 8: Time, I think so. 538 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 3: But I'm squinting. 539 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I am too, And I really feel bad 540 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 4: for the folks over at the Office of Management and Budget. 541 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 4: It would have to administer a ladder. 542 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 9: People. 543 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 3: I'm sure they are. 544 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 4: But let's talk about Let's say that Mike Johnson has 545 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 4: the magic potion and he gets a CR that Biden's signs, 546 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 4: and everything's hockey dory. It goes till January fifteenth, the 547 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 4: day of the Iowa Caucuses, or it goes until April 548 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 4: after Super Tuesday, when pretty much the nominees are set. 549 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 4: How that deep into an election year can they solve 550 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 4: a spending issue. 551 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 9: Wendy, I don't think. I don't think the dates of 552 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 9: the various political events factor in as much as that 553 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 9: trigger date for the Massy Amendment that was made part 554 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 9: of the debt ceiling deal. And as I sit here 555 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 9: and talk to you, I can't remember what the date was, 556 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 9: but it's sometime in the first quarter of next year 557 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 9: that there's an automatic across the board spending cut. I 558 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 9: think it's one percent. If there's a CR on that 559 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 9: particular date, that changes the analysis because there's going to 560 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 9: be a lot of Republican conservatives who would love to 561 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 9: see that triggered because they get the automatic one percent 562 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 9: spending cut, and there's a lot of Republican sort of centrists, 563 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,479 Speaker 9: especially the appropriators, who don't want to see that. So 564 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 9: that's that next sort of inflection point that might drive 565 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 9: a wedge between various wings of the Republican park. I 566 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 9: don't think you see that with a with a CR 567 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 9: that goes to the end of the calendar year. I 568 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 9: don't think it goes if it goes to January fifteenth. 569 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 9: But you start talking in you know, March April next year, 570 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 9: then you talk about that automatic cut, which is going 571 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 9: to be a real, real spot of friction between the 572 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 9: two folks, much more so than whether or not Donald 573 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 9: Trump is the nominee, because he's going to be the nominee, 574 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 9: and everybody's acting in Washington like he's going to be 575 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 9: the nominee already. 576 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 8: Well to that point, Mick, as we're preparing for a 577 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 8: Republican debate on Wednesday, another primary debate, the third in 578 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 8: which the former president and front runner will not be 579 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 8: in attendance. But it comes at a time where it 580 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 8: feels like Nikki Haley actually has momentum in a quasi 581 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 8: sustainable right She, of course Harold's Harold's from your South Carolina. 582 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 8: Do you think she stands any real chance of challenging 583 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 8: your former boss? 584 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 9: You know, right now she's the most likely. But keep 585 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 9: in mind, she's done great the last month or so 586 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 9: month or six weeks, She's done really, really well. She's 587 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 9: doubled her polling across you know, across the board. She's 588 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 9: in the low single low double digits. I think you 589 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 9: were from seven to fourteen in Iowa, but please allow 590 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 9: that to sink in. She doubled from seven to fourteen. 591 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 9: Donald Trump is still in the low fifties. And more importantly, 592 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 9: I think if you watch the dynamics, she's taken the 593 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,719 Speaker 9: support away from Ron DeSantis, not away from Donald Trump. 594 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 9: This is not a pay three places kind of horse race. 595 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 9: It's not win place for show. If you're not first, 596 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 9: your last. So Nicki does have momentum, she does seem 597 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 9: to be the ascendant primary challenger, but she's still forty 598 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 9: five to fifty points behind Donald Trump. That's a huge number, 599 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 9: and in any other ordinary year we would be talking 600 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 9: about it just because Donald Trump is so far out 601 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 9: in front. But we need something to talk about because 602 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 9: he's not engaging in the race, at least in the 603 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 9: head on yet. 604 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 3: Well, let's talk about that the poles. The debate is 605 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 3: Wednesday night. 606 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 4: Nicki Haley may have another chance to talk about foreign policy. 607 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 3: And it seems that she may be able to be 608 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 3: a senate there. 609 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 4: What about if Donald Trump is actually convicted in any 610 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 4: of these trials He The New York Times Sienna College 611 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 4: poll said that six percent of voters would switch off 612 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 4: Donald Trump if he were actually ever a convicted felon. 613 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 3: Is that the window. 614 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 4: That a Nikki Haley or Iron Desantas could slip into. 615 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 9: You know, maybe you know, as soon as you say yes, 616 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 9: you really, you know, you become yet another person who 617 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 9: has predicted Donald Trump inevitable fall from grace and it's 618 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 9: never happened. So I think that the track record would 619 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 9: suggest that, no, it doesn't hurt him if he's actually convicted, 620 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 9: at least in a Republican primary. I think if your point, 621 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 9: Wendy is that it looks like it might cost him 622 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 9: in a general, and that might cost him the ability 623 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 9: to win. Because six percentage points in a Republican primary 624 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 9: is nothing. He still wins easily. Six percentage points in 625 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 9: a national election can be a big difference, depending upon 626 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,479 Speaker 9: where those votes fall state by state. But let's make 627 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 9: the case. Okay, if he's convicted, now Nikki Haley and 628 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 9: DeSantis can say, well, look, he's convicted, he'll never win 629 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 9: a general, that this is the time you need to 630 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 9: abandon him and come over and vote for me. To 631 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 9: DeSantis or Nicki Haley or Tim Scott or whatever. Maybe 632 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 9: you know, I just think Trump has just done such 633 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 9: a masterful job of making himself out to be a victim. 634 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 9: You talked a bit a little bit about that on 635 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 9: your intro, that these criminal investigations, and this civil investigation 636 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 9: in New York that's going on today is actually helping 637 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:36,240 Speaker 9: him financially, excuse me, politically. He has successfully made himself 638 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 9: out to be the victim of a weaponized government. That's 639 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 9: a message that's resonating with people well beyond whatever I expected. 640 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 9: He's doing better now with the minority communities, the African 641 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 9: American community, the Hispanic community than he was doing six 642 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 9: months ago. And I think it's that victimization thing that 643 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 9: he's been able to sell. So again, the man has 644 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 9: more than nine lives, and I'm not going to be 645 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,479 Speaker 9: quick to predict his end this point. 646 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 8: Well, and Mick, I'm not sure you're exactly wrong about 647 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 8: what you first said about it helping him financially, because 648 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 8: he has been able to fundraise off of that, and 649 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,879 Speaker 8: arguably a lot of that's going right to those legal bills, 650 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 8: as we've seen him in court now, and he's going 651 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 8: to spend a lot more time in quart, or at 652 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 8: least his lawyers will over the course of the next year. 653 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 8: As we talk though about the former president and all 654 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,879 Speaker 8: the investigations and charges that he is facing. To bring 655 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,319 Speaker 8: this back to Congress, there's of course a separate investigation 656 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 8: happening into President Biden in the House an impeachment in quiry. 657 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 8: Do you think that that could be damaging for Republicans 658 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 8: in twenty twenty four if they go ahead with it. 659 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 8: Mike Johnson has said he doesn't want to predetermine any outcome, 660 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 8: but it does seem like generally he's supportive. And we 661 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 8: all saw last week when there was a bunch of 662 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 8: Republican members on Sean Hannity's show. Everybody put their hand 663 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 8: up when they said, yeah, we think we're going to 664 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 8: impeach Biden. 665 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 9: Yeah, I could see it both ways. Let me make 666 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:53,800 Speaker 9: the case real quickly for both sides of that equation. 667 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 9: It's bad for Republicans. It's bad for Republicans because people 668 00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 9: are tired of this. They now perceive impeachments to be 669 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 9: political show trials. You know, Donald Trump had two, could 670 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 9: have had seven. If he gets elected again, he's going 671 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 9: to have fifty. Right. It's become a running joke with 672 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 9: some voters, and if the Republicans run the risk of 673 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 9: alienating those folks who would typically be swing voters, that 674 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 9: could hurt them. The flip side is could it hurt Biden? 675 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 9: I think it could hurt Biden in this way. If 676 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 9: there's evidence these two checks don't help Biden, and what 677 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 9: it does, combined with his entire experience with his son Hunter, 678 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,799 Speaker 9: is part of his sales pitch. Part of what he 679 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 9: was offering in twenty twenty was vote for normalcy, bring 680 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 9: back you know, normal government, Bring back a president who 681 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 9: looks like a president, not like a clown. Bring back 682 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 9: somebody who's got some stability in his life. Vote for me. 683 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 9: And if his son is running around and this money 684 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 9: comes back to him in some fashion, it sounds like 685 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 9: he might have already made some mistakes about you know, 686 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 9: where's the money, Show me the money, or I had 687 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 9: a Chinese firewall up between me and my son. Those 688 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 9: seem to be breaking down screen. Voters might look at 689 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 9: this and go, everybody's corrupt. You know, there are no 690 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,280 Speaker 9: normal people in politics anymore. And that sense of dejection, 691 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 9: I think hurts Joe Biden more than it does Donald Trump. 692 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 4: So let's go back to this debate on Wednesday night 693 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 4: for just a minute. Meg, You know, why are we 694 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 4: listening If everyone is so certain as you are in 695 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 4: the Republican Party that Donald Trump is the nominee. 696 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 3: Why are we doing this? 697 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 4: And why has the RNC agreed to four more debates 698 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 4: with the not Trump candidates. 699 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 9: Yeah, the couple different answers because a couple of different 700 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 9: constituencies in the answer. Keep in mind that the crowd 701 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 9: did get dramatically smaller. The audience got smaller from the 702 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 9: first one to the second one, so more and more 703 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 9: American people are asking the same question. Still, this is 704 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 9: Republican primary, and the RNC is sort of doing what 705 00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 9: it knows how to do, which is it's a primary season. 706 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 9: We have to have debates. If we don't have debates, 707 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 9: it looks like we're favoring Trump, and we can't do that. 708 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 9: Even though he's the you know, the the the former president, 709 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 9: he's not an incumbent. So we're trying to play it 710 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 9: straight down the middle with all of these folks. And 711 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 9: there's legitimate candidate's I mean, Ron de Santis is a 712 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 9: legitimate presidential Canada. Everybody up there, well, I mean Larry 713 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 9: Elder wasn't, but I mean most of everybody who's going 714 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 9: to be on the stage on Wednesday night is a 715 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 9: legitimate presidential contender, and the RNC has got to treat 716 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 9: it that way. There's also a good bit of money 717 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 9: to be made here. I think the parties make a 718 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 9: good bit of dough off off of the debates, from 719 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 9: the sponsorships and so forth. So there's there is a 720 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 9: money making operation. But at the end of the day, 721 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,320 Speaker 9: it's what they do. It's what they're set up to do. 722 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 9: It's like, look, there's seven people or whatever it is 723 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 9: now running for president. Here they are. Go take a 724 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 9: look at them. We'll put them in front of you 725 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 9: on national television. Lets you decide. It's what they're supposed 726 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 9: to do. It's Trump that's actually, you know, thrown this 727 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:56,240 Speaker 9: into into chaos, which is nothing new by not showing up. 728 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 9: I don't blame it for not showing up. I think 729 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 9: it's the right decision in the primary. I think it 730 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 9: may come back to haunt him when Joe Biden, assuming 731 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 9: Biden's the Democrat nominee, has the ability then with good 732 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 9: reason to say, oh, Donald, you didn't debate in the primary, 733 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 9: I'm not debating you in the general. And Trump would 734 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 9: be desperate for a debate headhead against Bide, and Bide 735 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 9: would be desperate for an excuse not to do one. 736 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 9: And I think Trump may have given him that excuse. 737 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 9: So look, we'll go through the motion. We'll do it. 738 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 9: It might be good entertainment, certainly, it's help NICKI Haley 739 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 9: in the past. It might help her again. I might 740 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 9: have somebody else. Never know. 741 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 8: All right, well, we'll all look forward to Wednesday, but 742 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 8: we always look forward to Monday when Mick mulvaney joins us. 743 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 8: Thank you very much as always, of course, former O 744 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 8: and B director, former congressman from South Carolina, Freedom Cock 745 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 8: is co founder and former acting chief of staff to 746 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 8: former President Donald Trump. A lot of formers, but we 747 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 8: love actively talking with Mick. 748 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Sound On podcast. 749 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 9: Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, 750 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 9: and anywhere else you get your podcasts, and you can 751 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 9: find us live every weekday from Washington, d C. At 752 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:05,320 Speaker 9: one pm Eastern Time at Bloomberg dot com.