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Speaker 1: Welcome to Worst Year Ever, a production of I Heart

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Speaker 1: Radio Together Everything, So don't don't don't Well, I guess

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Speaker 1: we're here. We're back again, Yeah, bo Jeff, Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: so scared of that. Hello of me the worst year Ever.

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Speaker 1: We should have changed it to the worst Years Ever.

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Speaker 1: When we continued on in hindsights years Comma, they have

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Speaker 1: not gotten better. The year the year that continues poorly,

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Speaker 1: even though it's technically a different year. That's good. That

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Speaker 1: could we could do, like there could be a song

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Speaker 1: that does have something to it. But I don't know, man,

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Speaker 1: there's an internal rhythm. I think I think we can

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Speaker 1: make it work. It flows to the beat of jazz

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Speaker 1: like a cosmic gumbo like it is like a cosmic

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Speaker 1: Gubbo Grrison's here today. Hello, hey Cody, You're so glad

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Speaker 1: to see them? God, how did you? How did you

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Speaker 1: feel about the Bubba Fette shows? The Bubba Here's how

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Speaker 1: I feel about the Bubba Fette show. Um, well, the

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Speaker 1: Mandalorian I would say it's like pretty good in terms

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Speaker 1: of direction. It was trying to take the star war.

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Speaker 1: Um Boba Fette is an interesting show because me, Cody

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Speaker 1: uh from let's say fifteen years ago would have uh

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Speaker 1: immediately watched it as soon as it was put up,

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Speaker 1: and probably watched it a second time and watched all

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Speaker 1: of it. Um, I haven't seen a second of the

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Speaker 1: Boba Fette show. Good for You, Good for You. It's good,

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Speaker 1: is it? I liked it because it's basically just more

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Speaker 1: of the Mandalorian It is not show, which is nice.

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Speaker 1: I don't care about Boba Fette. I just like I

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Speaker 1: like it's fine. I like it's like it's kind of

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Speaker 1: a it's kind of a wonky space Western thing, which

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Speaker 1: is all all that I wanted from it. I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to watch it a second time. That's when you

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Speaker 1: want from I watched. I watched it. I enjoy the fights,

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Speaker 1: I the characters are They're all actors that I like

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Speaker 1: seeing do stuff. And I don't I don't have like

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Speaker 1: strong feelings about it. The show is a list strong feelings. Well,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't that I comprehensively enjoy it. See that's the

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Speaker 1: thing about it. Like that's why I haven't watched it.

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Speaker 1: It's like I have no feeling about it. It has

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Speaker 1: it has no feeling. It is so sanitized and corporate,

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Speaker 1: and the show is so uninterested in Boba Fett as

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Speaker 1: a character because no one should be interested in him

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Speaker 1: because he's boring. Ye, he's not any counterpoint from someone

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Speaker 1: he has hasn't seen The Mandalorian or Botha, and he's

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Speaker 1: not gonna Sometimes you just need something whatever to put

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Speaker 1: on with good fights. That's that's kind of enough actors,

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Speaker 1: and especially when the world is looking like it is now.

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Speaker 1: I have not watched or cared about I have not

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Speaker 1: cared about a Star Wars in a long time. I

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Speaker 1: didn't care for any of the new movies. I did

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Speaker 1: not care for any of the prequels. Um, but I've

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Speaker 1: liked some of the comics and the Bubba fet shows

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Speaker 1: fun I like, I enjoyed, I enjoyed it. Uh, it's good,

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Speaker 1: It's not for you, Robert. Yeah, I would enjoy a

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Speaker 1: Doctor Offer TV show, a Doctor after TV show, and

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Speaker 1: the night. The thing that I liked most about the

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Speaker 1: Bubba Fete show was black her Santin showing up, which

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Speaker 1: made me think like, oh, we might actually get the

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Speaker 1: thing that I want most. Well, so yeah, that's a thing.

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Speaker 1: Like with a show like this, I'm like, well, don't

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Speaker 1: do a Boba Fete show. Just do like literally tales

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Speaker 1: for the past Star Wars anthology series much better, I think,

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Speaker 1: But I feel like they did that. They just stuck

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Speaker 1: the name Boba Fette on the top that the clicks

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Speaker 1: and I don't but like care you're Disney, You're on Disney. Plus, uh,

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Speaker 1: you're doing Star Wars. You don't need to get the clicks.

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Speaker 1: Like it, like people will be there no matter what,

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Speaker 1: no matter what you do. Here's my attitude. The fact

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Speaker 1: that Disney launched what they claimed was a Boba Fette

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Speaker 1: show and then in the middle of the series and

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Speaker 1: turned into the episodes not feature Boba Fette is the

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Speaker 1: bravest decision I've seen them make yet in the Star

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Speaker 1: Wars realm. And very funny. It's really funny through it's

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Speaker 1: literally just becomes the Mandalorian season whatever. Like he's not

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Speaker 1: he's not in the it's just Pedro Bascal doing ship episode. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's that's very funny. I thought funny. It turns into

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Speaker 1: a show with and get I like Mark Cambell and

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Speaker 1: that's what the show is. Here's what I like to see.

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Speaker 1: I didn't like the c G I Mark Cammell stuff.

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Speaker 1: I'll go that was the most off putting part of it.

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Speaker 1: Tom Garrison. Yeah, I thought the number one. If you're

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Speaker 1: going to do c g I mark Camill's face to

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Speaker 1: make him look young. Okay, I'll take the argument because

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Speaker 1: like he's a big part of the Star Wars expanded universe.

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Speaker 1: Just let Mark Hambill do the voice. Don't. Don't get

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Speaker 1: weird with the greatest voice actor alive. Use him. Do

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Speaker 1: the thing that other things have done, which is get

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Speaker 1: the actor to do it and then d age him

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Speaker 1: like the try, you know, like, if you're gonna do

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Speaker 1: the weird fucking you know, the deep fake thing, at

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Speaker 1: least use his real voice. But that is that is

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Speaker 1: the real problem is that it's also a deep fake

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Speaker 1: voice via the program Reespeecher, and it's not good so emotionless, right,

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Speaker 1: it's just like, yeah, it's a robot. It's a robot

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Speaker 1: trying to Yeah, And that part I didn't like. But

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Speaker 1: what I did like about it is that in terms

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Speaker 1: of its construction, like it's bizarre for a TV show

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Speaker 1: to be a stably based around a guy and then

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Speaker 1: he disappears for half of the series, But it's not

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Speaker 1: weird for a comic book like comic it's true and

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Speaker 1: that that's kind of what I thought might be, that

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Speaker 1: we might be heading towards something kind of neat where

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Speaker 1: they actually are building up to just doing what they've

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Speaker 1: been doing pretty well. Like the latest run of Star

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Speaker 1: Wars comics have been good. And I said, again as

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Speaker 1: someone who's not particularly a Star Wars fan, like I

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Speaker 1: like all that ship, the Darth Vader ones and stuff, like,

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Speaker 1: there's some good stuff in there, um, and it's my

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Speaker 1: hope that like they'll just kind of keep spinning towards

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Speaker 1: that and they'll get really weird with it. Like there

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Speaker 1: were some moments of like cad Bane showing up and

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Speaker 1: ship it's like without wow, okay, you guys willing to

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Speaker 1: get kind of strange. Um. So it was as it

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Speaker 1: was also fun when he did a drug trip with

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Speaker 1: the Tuscans when he took the best episode was episode

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Speaker 1: two when he just did drugs with the Tuscans and

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Speaker 1: that was actually incredibly rad. There's some fun ship in there.

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Speaker 1: And my must to you, as this Cody, if you

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Speaker 1: watch the Boba Fetts show, you will be frustrated at

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Speaker 1: some points, you will be entertained at other points. You

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Speaker 1: will probably not be thinking about the looming specter of

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Speaker 1: global conflict for most of the time that you that's

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Speaker 1: so anyone can ask for from specifically Star Wars to

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Speaker 1: like no one's asking you to make like amazing art

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Speaker 1: speaking of global conflict before we pivot to the news. Um,

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Speaker 1: I just this has nothing to do with Star Wars either.

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Speaker 1: But it's a really good show that I know, and

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Speaker 1: I want you to watch it. I want you want

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Speaker 1: to watch it. And it's called Patriot, And thank God Prime,

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Speaker 1: I thought you were going to see Euphoria. No, I

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Speaker 1: wasn't going to do that. I truly think that you

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Speaker 1: would all enjoy the show Patriot on Amazon Prime. And

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Speaker 1: I've heard it's a show on Amazon Prime. Um, it's great. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's got only got two seasons outstanding motherfucking cast um.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know how much to say to not

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Speaker 1: spoil it. But it's basically like a guy works in

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Speaker 1: the government and his son is a not secret service

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Speaker 1: beat is off the book jobs for the government, and

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Speaker 1: but he's all fucked up from one trip and he

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Speaker 1: has to go straight into another one to intercept some cash.

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Speaker 1: Blah blah blah, and its spirals out. But it's very funny.

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Speaker 1: It's so funny, and it's heartbreaking and well written and

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Speaker 1: full of action. And it's also like a lovely family story.

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Speaker 1: There's like a brother relationship that's very special. It's really

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Speaker 1: it's good. Nobody watches it and is disappointed. I will,

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Speaker 1: I will check that out. It's good to have a

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Speaker 1: good show to watch when times are like this, if

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Speaker 1: you need to like just that that sounds fun. I

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Speaker 1: have been people all over my timeline. I've been talking

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Speaker 1: about Euphoria, which my favorite thing about this. I don't

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Speaker 1: I know nothing about this show. I haven't watched it.

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Speaker 1: I don't plan to watch it. But the very fun

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Speaker 1: part is that, like all of the commentary for weeks

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Speaker 1: has been like, oh, it's high school kids. They're dealing

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Speaker 1: with like drugs and you know, one of them's trans

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Speaker 1: and like it's all this, like you know, it seemed

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Speaker 1: like a normal, like basic basic stuff. And then someone's

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Speaker 1: people started playing a clip from apparently the last episode

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Speaker 1: where Okay, you watched the show, huh, I do watch it,

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Speaker 1: iry see, I have no idea what I watch. That's

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Speaker 1: not a secret that I watched television. Cody as another spoiler,

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Speaker 1: Boba feats he gets out of the hole, he gets

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Speaker 1: out of the pit. Pit. We started the show saying

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Speaker 1: I've not seen the boat show yet. The class getting

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Speaker 1: out of a pit, getting out, he got knocked into

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Speaker 1: accidently classic feet, like a yeah, you know, I I

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Speaker 1: think classic Boba Fett is just falling into the hole.

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Speaker 1: And now we're we're expanding his character because he's able

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Speaker 1: to get out of a whole. The end of the

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Speaker 1: Hero's journey, crawled out of the hole. Do you read?

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Speaker 1: And then he crawled out of the hole. Should we pivot? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we should probably pivot. Probably. We've we've literally gone like

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Speaker 1: probably a year or more without talking about TV, but

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Speaker 1: now everything is so bad that we just talked about

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Speaker 1: for eleven minutes. Last time we talked about it, it

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Speaker 1: was it was well, it was gay Superman was the

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Speaker 1: last time. That's right, god man. That was like forty

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Speaker 1: seven moral panics ago. It was at least I forgot

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Speaker 1: we had gay Superman. Yeah, they were the days Superman

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Speaker 1: ruined society by having a gay son. Look where we

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Speaker 1: are now. Things have gotten worse. So we had a

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Speaker 1: gay Superman and then Vladimir Putin started a war because

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Speaker 1: of it. Because of it, I mean, he did give

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Speaker 1: that speech a few months ago about wokeness and PC

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Speaker 1: culture in the West. So, yeah, I mean NATO stands

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Speaker 1: for nobody ever takes no no as taste. Yeah, I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I was going to try to tie

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Speaker 1: it in, but there's no way I've got I've got nothing.

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Speaker 1: What how are we all doing? What's going on in

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Speaker 1: the world were pretty bad stuff. Patient You're like, shouldn't

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Speaker 1: we talk about like what we're here for? Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. It's been a hard week. I didn't even

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Speaker 1: know how to start talking about everything, you know. So

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Speaker 1: I think the thing that is most notable to me

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Speaker 1: is that there are two, Like there's what's actually happening

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Speaker 1: in the war, and then there's the Russian propaganda, which

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Speaker 1: is fairly incoherent and not particularly because of like how

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Speaker 1: rapidly a bunch of ship was d platformed. There's very

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Speaker 1: little visibility of that um in the West. And then

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Speaker 1: there's the Ukrainian propaganda, which is most of what people

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Speaker 1: who are listening this are seeing on their timeline. Which

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean that like it's not none of it's happening

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Speaker 1: or anything, but it does mean that like a very

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Speaker 1: skewed view of what's happening on the ground is being

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Speaker 1: passed two people because largely that it feels good. And

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Speaker 1: like again, there's all sorts of like there's all sorts

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Speaker 1: of there's always mixes of truth in with it, like

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Speaker 1: for example, the you know, you now have the thing

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Speaker 1: that happens anytime a person in a position of power

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Speaker 1: doesn't funk up, which is that a chunk of libs

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Speaker 1: have gotten real weird and sexual about it, very very horny,

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Speaker 1: and that I I felt because I you know, I

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of really valid criticisms of Zelinski, particularly

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Speaker 1: prior to the outbreak of fighting. Among other things, one

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Speaker 1: thing that is, he repeatedly kind of downplayed what they

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Speaker 1: believed as the risk of a full scale Russian invasion

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Speaker 1: um to the point of like really arguing with a

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Speaker 1: lot of the U S intelligence, which you know, I

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Speaker 1: think there's an argument trying to keep it from panic

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Speaker 1: and everything. But at the same time, people needed to leave. Yes,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of civilians who did not adequately get

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Speaker 1: to prepare for what was going to happen. And and

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Speaker 1: again I think that's a really important point to not

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Speaker 1: just like the fact that they've had Russian military and

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Speaker 1: on their periphery for a long time. You know, they

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Speaker 1: were invaded not that long ago and eight years ago,

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Speaker 1: I mean, but you know, it happened, and they've been

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Speaker 1: you know, Russians have build up, weeks have build up.

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Speaker 1: But I think, from what I'm understanding, just people didn't

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Speaker 1: quite they didn't until it happened. They didn't believe that

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Speaker 1: it would happen. And there's so much disinformation that always

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Speaker 1: rounds were so much disinformation surrounding this. It's not the

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Speaker 1: kind of I'm not gonna like condemn Zalinski is a

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Speaker 1: human being forever for that failure of his administration, but

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Speaker 1: it is a failure and it deserves to be noted

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Speaker 1: as such. UM. And there have been some other things

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Speaker 1: that are really questionable. One of them is this is

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Speaker 1: probably not questionable from a military standpoint, You could argue

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Speaker 1: with the right thing to do, but it's a deeply

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Speaker 1: morally questionable act. Which is the forced conscription of every

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Speaker 1: adult male under the age of sixty UM, which is

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Speaker 1: like to some really brutal moments, particularly at the border,

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Speaker 1: as families try to flee and they are separated from

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Speaker 1: their their sons and husbands, UM, which is again in

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Speaker 1: the long view of history, when we're looking at this

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Speaker 1: years down the line. Depending on how this all goes,

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Speaker 1: people may say, well, this was you know that, this

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Speaker 1: was what what allowed Ukraine to eke out a victory.

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Speaker 1: This was necessary, you know, just like so many horrible

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Speaker 1: things that had to be done by the Allied forces

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Speaker 1: in World War Two wound up being necessary. Or we

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Speaker 1: may say well this fed a lot of young men

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Speaker 1: into a meat grinder, a lot of families without kids,

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Speaker 1: and it didn't affect the the old. We can't know, right,

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Speaker 1: these are things that are worth discussing and worth being

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Speaker 1: potentially critical about, but we also have to acknowledge as like, well, nobody,

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Speaker 1: no nobody ever makes perfect or even mostly good decisions

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Speaker 1: in a war. I think that that would be fair

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Speaker 1: to argue, like, you can look at fd impossible calculations

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Speaker 1: inspiring moments of FDR from World War Two while he

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Speaker 1: was like locking Japanese people up in internment camps. You know, um,

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Speaker 1: the same thing with you know. So I'll give us

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Speaker 1: a scale a lot of credit for staying and repeatedly

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Speaker 1: putting his life on the line and refusing to do

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Speaker 1: what I think nearly every other world leader would have done,

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Speaker 1: which is get the funk out of there and hide

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Speaker 1: in a mansion and you know, Germany or somewhat and

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Speaker 1: try to direct this from a distance, which is by

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Speaker 1: far the norm. And the fact that he didn't speaks

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Speaker 1: better of him as a person than I can probably

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Speaker 1: say of any other national elected leader on the planet

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Speaker 1: at the moment um. And it's certainly caught the world's

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Speaker 1: attention if it wasn't paying attention before. And you know,

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Speaker 1: the morning is weird and I hate I hate it

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Speaker 1: when that happens. I hate it because it makes me

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Speaker 1: feel like, you know, I made some posts being like

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Speaker 1: this is something that should be law to the specific act,

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Speaker 1: you know, refusing to leave that is, you know, an

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Speaker 1: act of courage that we should appreciate. And then when

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Speaker 1: a bunch of people get really horny about it, it's like,

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Speaker 1: well should I even are you feeding into that by

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Speaker 1: just like commenting on this thing that is legitimately good

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Speaker 1: And these are kind of there's a lot of It's

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Speaker 1: the same thing with like, are you feeding into unreasonable

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Speaker 1: and unrealistic optimism about the course of the war if

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Speaker 1: you celebrate specific kinds of victories, what happened of the

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Speaker 1: broader struggle, what happens, what we see happening. I mean, Garrison,

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Speaker 1: you put some examples in this doc I'm sure, but

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Speaker 1: this this idea that it's like a movie playing out

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Speaker 1: and he's are unlikely hero the guy with this game,

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Speaker 1: I know, but like because he's got this storied past

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Speaker 1: and it reads like a play. It is very funny

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Speaker 1: that he played the piano with his testicles on stage

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Speaker 1: at one point. That's that's that's great and fine, but

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Speaker 1: also we don't need a New York party. A New

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Speaker 1: York Post article saying we share discast Jeremy Renner as

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Speaker 1: Lensky in Fantasy Ukraine. It makes me sick and everyone

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Speaker 1: everyone doing that should be flung into the sea. We're

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Speaker 1: like watching dies, but thousands of people. People are dying,

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Speaker 1: like vacuum mombs are being detonated in crowded city blocks. Um,

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Speaker 1: some of the most terrifying weapons that exist on this planet. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can. You cannot stand precedents like you don't need to.

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Speaker 1: Like you can. You can recognize that certain leaders are

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Speaker 1: doing things that other people maybe too cowardly to do.

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Speaker 1: But you can recognize that without getting weirdly horny about

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Speaker 1: it because because the drive of hero worship specifically towards

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Speaker 1: politicians and political leaders like is not good. Like, there's

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Speaker 1: lots of other people who are putting their lives on

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Speaker 1: the line way more, but we default always too politicians

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Speaker 1: and political leaders, um and as and as as cool

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Speaker 1: as it maybe that he's sticking around like this is

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Speaker 1: a purposeful like like propaganda move like it and it's good,

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Speaker 1: like it's it's it's very well done, but it does

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Speaker 1: have that dual purpose and and and I think part

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Speaker 1: of why one thing you have to clarify when we

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Speaker 1: talked about it is a propaganda move. Propaganda doesn't just

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Speaker 1: mean or even necessarily in a case like this, primarily

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Speaker 1: mean something directed outward. It's it's this. The thing that

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Speaker 1: I think is probably most successful about what Zelinski is

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Speaker 1: doing is that it's it's having and from everything I

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Speaker 1: can tell a significant morale impact on soldiers on the

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Speaker 1: ground just knowing that, like, well, they would probably feel

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Speaker 1: less bad about the fact that many of them are

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Speaker 1: going to die if the guy who was ostensibly leading

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Speaker 1: them was hiding in a mansion in Berlin or something,

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Speaker 1: you know, um, which is understandable and and as a

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Speaker 1: as a military choice, as a tactical choice, is a

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Speaker 1: strategic choice is really more of a strategic than a

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Speaker 1: tactical choice. UM, I think you probably lee with what

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Speaker 1: Zelinski has done, get more people who are willing to

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Speaker 1: fight harder and do things like what what we're seeing

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Speaker 1: in um um Mariopol right now, where you've got the

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Speaker 1: entire city now surrounded and cut off by an overwhelming

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Speaker 1: number of Russian troops. And there's a pretty good chance

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Speaker 1: that every single Ukrainian soldier there, if they don't surrender,

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Speaker 1: is going to die fighting along with a funckload of civilians.

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Speaker 1: And maybe people wouldn't be willing to do that if

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Speaker 1: Zelinski had not made the example. And but that and

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Speaker 1: that that also the question that we cannot answer until

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Speaker 1: this is over is will that alter things? Has he

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Speaker 1: made a decision by getting by increasing you know, doing

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Speaker 1: these things that have improved fighting spirit so much? Is

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Speaker 1: that going to help Ukraine fight off this aggression or

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Speaker 1: is it just going to mean that when everything is settled,

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Speaker 1: a hell of a lot more Ukrainians are dead and

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Speaker 1: we you don't know, this is not a kind of

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Speaker 1: thing you can condemn or applod it's a tactic, you know,

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Speaker 1: and and it's not a tactic that we know the

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Speaker 1: efficacy of yet um from I guess from a moral level,

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Speaker 1: I can applaud fighting for your homeland. I think that's

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Speaker 1: fighting for your homes against aggression is a good thing.

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Speaker 1: But like as it does it, is it going to

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Speaker 1: work or is it just going to be more bodies

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Speaker 1: on the dirt? I don't know. Well, we need to

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Speaker 1: take a quick break and then we'll come back and

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Speaker 1: keep having this conversation together. Everything get back, And that's

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Speaker 1: what we are. We are politely respectfully. We are a

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Speaker 1: politely respectfully back So yeah, outside of you know, we've

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Speaker 1: we've I think discussed Zelinsky to the extent that is

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Speaker 1: useful for you. Just like keep the homosexual ship to yourself. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and if he dies, it's fine to mourn him. It's

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Speaker 1: fine to like respect the choices he's making because I

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Speaker 1: think he's handling this as well as a wartime leader

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Speaker 1: possibly could, given everything he is capable of going and

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Speaker 1: everything that we know I don't actually have. Like, it's

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Speaker 1: fine to say that you don't. You don't need to

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Speaker 1: talk about him being hot. That's not helping, and it's

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Speaker 1: really basically disrespectful actually, and it's it starts intersecting with

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Speaker 1: like the fantasy Ukraine invasion film type idea. It's not

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Speaker 1: the numbers of people are going to die and have

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Speaker 1: died already, you know, it's it's it's not okay. I

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Speaker 1: wanted to respond to one thing that you had said

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Speaker 1: that we've been talking about right before the break, if

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Speaker 1: they should have surrendered or if they should surrender versus

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Speaker 1: how many people are going to die and making that decision.

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Speaker 1: I think it's important to note that, like this is

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Speaker 1: this whole thing is so fucked because it's very clear

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Speaker 1: that even if they do surrender, there's nothing about this

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Speaker 1: that will be peaceful. People will continue to die, there

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Speaker 1: will be uprising, the gay people that will be massacred

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Speaker 1: with civilian The civilians are not going to stop making

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Speaker 1: Molotov cocktails. They're not gonna like just walk peacefully into this.

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Speaker 1: So either way, this is unfathomable bloodshed. You know, this,

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Speaker 1: This is a situation a guy who's been handed a

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Speaker 1: nightmare and a country that's been handed a nightmare. And

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Speaker 1: there were a lot of points at which things could

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Speaker 1: have been done to stop what we're seeing right now

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Speaker 1: from happening um, beginning much further back than eight years ago,

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Speaker 1: which is when the Russians invaded Ukraine initially, um, and

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Speaker 1: nothing was done. You know, nobody, nobody did anything, and

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Speaker 1: it's internationally nobody did anything. And if you want to

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Speaker 1: talk about like the moral culpability of the United States

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Speaker 1: or of NATO, it's in the fact that Putin number

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Speaker 1: one went up in charge at all, which had a

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Speaker 1: lot to do with US decisions that were made to

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Speaker 1: r e Boris yelts In. It's the fact that a

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Speaker 1: number of of Russian aggressive moves and backing of of

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Speaker 1: dictators in a variety of countries around the world, particularly

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Speaker 1: area where Russians tested weapons and tact experience, nothing was done.

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Speaker 1: Nothing was done about Czechnia when they leveled gros ni Um,

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Speaker 1: nothing was done. When when they invaded Ukraine eight years ago.

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Speaker 1: And when you have a guy like Putin and nothing

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Speaker 1: keeps being and no one pushes back effectively, at least

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Speaker 1: over and over again, they keep grabbing more and more,

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Speaker 1: and um, we are seeing the result. It's this thing

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Speaker 1: I talked about when when Turkey, you know, moved in

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Speaker 1: the northeast Syria. Um. And it's this thing I talked

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Speaker 1: about a lot, because there's been this huge problem on

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Speaker 1: the left of folks who have decided that, like this

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Speaker 1: is a fight in any sort of struggle where the

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Speaker 1: US and Russia can be opposed, they should be on

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Speaker 1: Russia's side for vaguely anti imperialistic reasons. And and this

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Speaker 1: kind of has been extended and for years was extended

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Speaker 1: to it's it's part of why international support for the

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Speaker 1: Arab Spring collapsed, and it's why you have these people

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Speaker 1: who you know, stand Bashar al Assad as a socialist

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Speaker 1: here or whatever the funk, these these gray zone scum fucks.

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Speaker 1: And when you you cannot let a dictator mass murder people,

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Speaker 1: because it never stops there, it'll spread. It's the same

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Speaker 1: as ignoring cancer cells in your body. And what we

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Speaker 1: are seeing in Ukraine and these threats that are these

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Speaker 1: fears everyone has that are growing now that this is

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Speaker 1: going to get nuclear. Uh, the seeds of this were sown,

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Speaker 1: I mean much further back than you know, the start

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Speaker 1: of the Syrian Civil War. But the Syrian Civil War

426
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 1: was a major factor in all of this. And you

427
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: can't just keep again at this point, there's no good

428
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: solutions right every every and we'll talk a bit about

429
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 1: that later. Every possible resolution to this is real ugly,

430
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 1: and every possible tactic to resist what Russia's doing is

431
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: real ugly and very problematic. There was a time when

432
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: that would not necessarily have been the case, but we

433
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 1: all just sat on this ship unless you're you know,

434
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 1: someone who was fighting in the street against Assad and

435
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 1: somebody who was, you know, resisting Russian aggression, and there's

436
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 1: somebody and you know, the fact that not to be

437
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 1: entirely Russia centric, the fact that the way in which

438
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: the United States invaded Iraq has had massive impact on

439
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 1: how the Russians proceeded in Ukraine. Um, and it's a

440
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 1: big part of why so many people were willing to

441
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: buy the idea that number one, all of the what

442
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: the State Department was saying about the Russian invasion, all

443
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 1: of this intelligence was was flawed and nonsense. Like the

444
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 1: fact that so many people on the left believe that

445
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 1: is understandable in part because there was a time in

446
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 1: our immediate past when they lied a shipload about stuff

447
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 1: like that, and that's consequences were tremendous. So there's a

448
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: lot of You can't trust your government, You can't trust

449
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 1: what they're saying. Yeah, decades and decades in tech. Yeah,

450
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: it is um fuck at all. How don't say and

451
00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: it't me saying this. Um, it is very frustrating to

452
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: watch to talk about. I mean what I'm about to say.

453
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: I'm not suggesting that we should be invading the United States,

454
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 1: should be coming in on you know, the white Horse.

455
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 1: I understand what's at stake here, unders there's no He

456
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: also knows that we've got a nuclear device pointed right

457
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,959
Speaker 1: at him, but he doesn't seem to care. He's not

458
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 1: like some rational actor. We're not going to start sacrifice

459
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: with Russia, but he could start. He could deploy tactical

460
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: nukes and see what happens. Like, he is a dice

461
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: rolling guy, and that gives him the power in this

462
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 1: situation because he can conceivably and realistically threatened, Hey I'll

463
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: get nuclear if you guys move troops in directly, you know, um,

464
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 1: letting him do what he wants. Um. Yeah, And we're

465
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 1: throwing out sanctions and stuff, which is a deeply questionable

466
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 1: in a number of ways. Um well yeah, but uh yeah,

467
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,479
Speaker 1: I mean this is but the like This is what

468
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 1: happens when you kind of seed all sort of initiative

469
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: to the authoritarians, and when you do authoritarian ship yourself

470
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 1: often enough that like there's no reason for anyone to

471
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: trust you above them. There was a period of time,

472
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 1: I think after World War Two, in the period of

473
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: time after the end of the Cold War where there

474
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: were real opportunities for an international system that would have

475
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 1: made it a lot harder for dictators to do the

476
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: kind of ship that's being done now. But all that

477
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 1: also would have been an international system where again, for example,

478
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: the United States would not have been able to invade Iraq.

479
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: We right, there's so many instances of just like we

480
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: we pushed this envelope in our own way for so

481
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: many yes, absolutely that it's like, well, how can we

482
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 1: what do we do now? We we made sure that

483
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 1: the bottle was open and so that we could do it,

484
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: and um, yeah, you have to be willing to acknowledge

485
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 1: that and see that otherwise you don't see the shape

486
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: of the problem adequately without letting that be the end

487
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: of your analysis. Because also the fact that the US

488
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 1: did all of this fucked up ship and still does

489
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 1: fucked up ship does not matter to people in Kharkiev

490
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: who are being subjected to thermobaric artillery right now. Um,

491
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: and that is the problem that we have the ability

492
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: to do something about right now as a as a species,

493
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: I guess, um. And so then the question becomes like, well,

494
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: what what what could make the situation? What is the

495
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: least awful way for this awful situation to potentially resolve?

496
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: And I think that's kind of the thing to discuss next,

497
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: and and it's it's very much muddled, and it kind

498
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: of depends on there's a lot of um, you know,

499
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: to quote one of the guys responsible for this situation,

500
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: there's a lot of known unknowns, right and then you know,

501
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: you never know the unknown unknowns are I actually do

502
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: like fuck him, But I don't think that's a useless

503
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: thought schema to go into something. But like, what what

504
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: are the unknown unknowns? Is worth asking. And one of

505
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: the biggest ones, maybe the biggest one in the situation

506
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: is how solid is Putin's actual grip on power? You know, what,

507
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: what are the odds of a palace? Who we can see?

508
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: Last I checked something like people arrested in several Russian

509
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 1: cities in protests since the start of the war, which

510
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: is enormous for I think it's an enormous number of people,

511
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: given how illegal any kind of protest against this sort

512
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: of thing is in Russia. Um, And it seems to

513
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: be growing the can it ever, Is it even theoretically

514
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: possible for it to grow to such a level that

515
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:48,479
Speaker 1: it threatens the stability of the state where I have

516
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: no way of No one has any way of knowing

517
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: that to a point of certainty, that seems unlikely. I

518
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,239
Speaker 1: think most people who know Russia's say. The thing that

519
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: is more possible, not that it's likely, but it's more

520
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: or possible, would be the term they use as a

521
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: palace coup, right, which is people around Putin not being

522
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 1: willing to deal with the consequences, economic and otherwise of

523
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: this invasion and to some extent either minimizing him or

524
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: taking him out of power. And there's some reasons to

525
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: believe this is possible, including according to some reports at

526
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: least he's kind of had really interesting response to COVID,

527
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: shall we say, and has been hiding away from basically everybody, um,

528
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: which would tend to suspect that maybe he's more atomized

529
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 1: kind of from from a lot of people, and maybe

530
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: there's more room for these people, for folks who who

531
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: might otherwise have been too much under his sight to

532
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: like make some moves. It's possible that the perception is

533
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: that he's in a sort of a weak state or

534
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: something by the restation or whatever. But we just don't

535
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: know how realistic that is, right, certainly not something you

536
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: can bet on, you know. It's it's the kind of

537
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: thing where if if it happens, everyone will be kind

538
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: of surprised and kind of not surprised at the same time.

539
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: It will be like, oh, I didn't real lies this

540
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: was possible, but also well, of course it might have

541
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: been bought. You know, we're there, right, and there's nothing

542
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: you can do with that hope sort of space where

543
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: like literally, I mean not literally, but like pretty much

544
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: anything is possible. There's no way to predict the next

545
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: you know, twenty four hours, little in twelve hours or

546
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: anything like that, and so it's like this sort of

547
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,719
Speaker 1: thing you have to wait and see. We don't know

548
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: what's real, what's false, what to what information to trust.

549
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: And that's partly why I think that, like it's so

550
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: easy for people to get stuck in that like, oh,

551
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: it's like a movie. Who's going to play this guy?

552
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: Because like there's a sense of helplessness because we're not,

553
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: like we can't influence the events really. UM. You can

554
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: like donate to places you know are helping, UM and

555
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: things like that, but like it's just we're just here

556
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 1: watching TV. UM. And I think that also that's sort

557
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: of like the past However many years have like let

558
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: us up to this point where like it just seems

559
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,239
Speaker 1: like you're disconnected, but you want to feel connected. And

560
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: it's just like it is like I say, one thing

561
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: that you can do, I mean, just reiterating what we've said,

562
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: don't do what we're saying, you know, and be aware

563
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: of what's of not being just not reacting immediately to

564
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: something like double check it look at who ye. Like

565
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: this is rampant right now, Like literally you're sharing the

566
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: bad information any Twitter is something that is how you

567
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: should go about your day, especially saying I'm saying, I'm

568
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: just saying that, like that is a problem every single

569
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: day on Twitter, especially if there's like a disaster like

570
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: a hurricane, a hurricane, any sort of disaster situation, or

571
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: like a mass shooting UM. And the most during a

572
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: war h like because not only is there they're just

573
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: bad actors doing like with misinformation, but like, yeah, there's

574
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: gonna be propaganda from everywhere. You need to sift through

575
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: it because it's very easy to get caught up in it,

576
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: Like wow, Ghost of Kia, if we're gonna like very cool,

577
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: it's like yeah in theory, but like wait a minute,

578
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:05,719
Speaker 1: and it's going to be a mix of propaganda just

579
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: like you know. One of the most viral initial story

580
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,959
Speaker 1: from this was those those border guards on Snake Island

581
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: who you know said which absolutely told a Russian warship

582
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: to go funk themselves. And the initial report was that

583
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: they had all died, and now it seems like they

584
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: did they all didn't, yeah, and they didn't, Like there's

585
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: no way to know, like what was that propaganda initially

586
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: from the government or were they just like, well, we didn't,

587
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: like we just lost contact with these field that one

588
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: feels less like propaganda as a story that we all

589
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 1: reacted to before having all the information. One point I'll

590
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: make is that while this isn't the first war during

591
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: social media, of course not um this kind of thing,

592
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: everyone's paying attention to it. What's happening and invasion of

593
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: another country. We have social media, we have videos on

594
00:33:55,360 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: the ground. It's it's not like the story takes happens

595
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: and then five days later we're reading it in a newspaper.

596
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: We're seeing it happen in real time, and so we

597
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: are learning things and relatively real time, and that changes.

598
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,919
Speaker 1: So the place was bombed everyone you maybe think everyone's dead.

599
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: It became almost like propaganda because we're all watching, we're waiting,

600
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: and we're looking, and it becomes this hero's story and

601
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 1: we start to martyr them immediately as you don't know

602
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: what's going to happen to them. There's lives are in danger. Still.

603
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: Also think about propaganda, is that like it doesn't some

604
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: of these propaganda doesn't automatically mean that it's false. It's

605
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: not like it doesn't need to be a falsehood. It

606
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: doesn't need to be a complete lie to be propaganda.

607
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: Like this event, it is like sake, I isn't think, Okay,

608
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 1: that happened. They said this. That's all we know. We

609
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 1: can use that piece of information for like like we're

610
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: talking we're talking about earlier with morale or just like

611
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 1: general propaganda usage. It's not a lie. Um, it's just

612
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 1: being used for some purpose samply with Ghost of KIAV

613
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: in terms of it being yeah, this this tool that

614
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 1: people in power are using to raise morale, and the

615
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: truthfulness of it honestly does not even matter because of

616
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: the way it's being used as a tool, because yeah,

617
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: we we can you can point to all of the

618
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: things being like, no, all the pictures that people are

619
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: posting are actually of French helmet test photo shoot simulator

620
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: and all and all all the videos are from video

621
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: games that are all cut. And this has been going on,

622
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: by the way, for years. It's happening for a long

623
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: ton of this stuff happening, Like the Russia in particular

624
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: had a thing of like posting footage from video games

625
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 1: and then saying it was from you know wherever. Syria

626
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: um and and the Ukrainian government is doing the same thing.

627
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: They're posting videos that are from digital combat simulator and

628
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 1: they're very good at it. They're doing there. It's been

629
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 1: it's been extremes. They have definitely been Uh, whatever is

630
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: happening on the ground, which we can talk about in

631
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: a bit is debatable in in terms of propaganda, they've

632
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 1: definitely doing of the propaganda war um, which is not nothing,

633
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 1: especially when you when you talk about like, um, you

634
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:15,879
Speaker 1: know important yeah, yeah, and there's like, you know, caught

635
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 1: up in the middle of like all of this glory.

636
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: We we just dropped an episode and it could happen

637
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: here today about it will have been a couple of

638
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 1: days ago, but it's called Escaping Ukraine, and it's about

639
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: what it's actually like at the border and all of

640
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: these people getting to the border right, whose stories are

641
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 1: much less attractive than these these brave stories of resistance

642
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:38,399
Speaker 1: UM and stories of UH, particularly like black people, black

643
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: Ukrainians UM, a lot of whom are refugees themselves getting

644
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: denied the ability to cross at the border. UM. And

645
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: it's it's a little unclear to me at the moment

646
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: how much of that problem is with Polish border guards

647
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 1: and how much is with Ukrainian There's a lot of

648
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 1: like people are arguing about it enough that I don't

649
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 1: feel comfortable confident saying which is more responsible, But it's

650
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: happening that there's certainly evidence that like that it's a problem. UM.

651
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: Another article that just dropped today as there's a number

652
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: of trans people in Kiev in particular who because of

653
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: you know, just the realities of transitioning. Their passport did

654
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: not yet match their their gender identity, and they are

655
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 1: afraid to flee because they do not know what will

656
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: happen to them at the border, particularly given Poland has

657
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,439
Speaker 1: done been great in general about Ukrainian refugees, but also

658
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: Poland not super pro LGBT as as a rule. Um

659
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,479
Speaker 1: And but also obviously like a lot of those people

660
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: would just be fucking murdered if if, if Russia takes over,

661
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 1: because that's what that's what happened in fucking Czechnia, you know.

662
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: And in fact, there's a pretty good chance that the

663
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: guy who orchestrated like mass killings of LGBT people in

664
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 1: Czechnia died fighting in Ukraine recently, although we know, we've

665
00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 1: got confirmation that decent numbers of his troops have we're

666
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: we're wiped out because we've seen like the wrecked vehicles

667
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: and stuff and see an in footage. Um, I don't

668
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 1: know that I haven't seen that guy's body anywhere, although

669
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: you know, he's been claimed by the Ukrainian government that

670
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: he's been killed, So it's hard to say. There's a

671
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: lot of Again, fog of war is a thing UM

672
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: for a reason in video games that it happens in reality,

673
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 1: and there's UM. When it comes to like what you

674
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: should and should not share, I think it's generally good

675
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 1: to to share UM articles that are written by journalists

676
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 1: who are there on the ground and seem to be

677
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: trying to do with the knowledge that like that's not

678
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 1: going to be perfect either. UM. You know, there's there

679
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 1: are people on in places like Twitter journalists who are

680
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 1: doing the best job possible of curating stuff and a verifying.

681
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 1: Some of my former colleagues at Belling Cat have been

682
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: doing a lot of work verifying, people like Eric Tohler,

683
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: Giancarlo Um, people like Christo UM have been putting a

684
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: lot of effort into attempting to verify things and and

685
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: doing stuff like, Okay, here's a video that shows an

686
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 1: air strike. Can we confirm this is in Ukraine? You know,

687
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 1: can we confirm this wasn't you know, six years ago? UM?

688
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 1: And so those would be people to UM, those would

689
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: be people to look at. I'll try to grab you

690
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 1: one more name before we go out of here. But

691
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: in general, like you're sharing and retweeting combat footage or

692
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: memes about fighting um or or jokes or you know,

693
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: celebrating Russian defeat preemptively is not gonna help anything. Um,

694
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 1: it'll help people feel good about themselves, Yeah, they will,

695
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 1: and then they'll feel like something impossible happened when the

696
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 1: war doesn't go well. Um. Because like here's here's the thing.

697
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 1: It does seem fair to say, based on the things

698
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:10,919
Speaker 1: that we can like know to a point of certainty. Um,

699
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: the initial Russian invasion was was kind of a cluster fuck. Um.

700
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: And there's a number of reasons for that, right if

701
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: you want to look at this as an attempt at

702
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: blitz greg And it does seem accurate based both on

703
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: what they did and based on some leaked conversations that

704
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 1: have come out between a chechen leader in the Russian government,

705
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: because this dude was just like recording voice messages and

706
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: sending them over and um, I think the Guardian published

707
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: that article that the initial plan that the hope and

708
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: the belief among the Russian command staff and among Putin

709
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: was that, as Hitler said, we need only kick in

710
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 1: the door and the whole rotten structure will collapse. Right.

711
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 1: That was this idea that like, there's not going to

712
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: be much of a fight if we can kind of

713
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: shock and awe them. Um, you know, the cities will

714
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 1: collapse quickly, the government will collapse, and we'll we'll be

715
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: able to take command. And so as a result, if

716
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: you're looking at like how you know a blitzkrieg type

717
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,280
Speaker 1: situation is supposed to work, um, like what the Nazis

718
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 1: did in France quite successfully or for a time successfully

719
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: in in Russia. You have what's called your first echelon,

720
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 1: which is your first wave of troops, and they move

721
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: in and they move forward as fast as they possibly can,

722
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: and they do not engage with every enemy they can.

723
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: Their priority is to move forward and take in and

724
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 1: like advance more than it is to engage with and

725
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,760
Speaker 1: destroy the enemy. Um. They do engage with and destroy

726
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: the enemy at parts when they're blocked, but that's not

727
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 1: their primary goal. And so the first echelon leaves large

728
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: numbers of intact enemy forces behind them as they advance

729
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: because their goal is disruption, and their goal is making

730
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: it kind of impossible for the enemy to effectively react

731
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 1: and to effectively engage resistance. And then a second echelon

732
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 1: comes from behind them and they engage more of those

733
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: troops that were left behind them, there's a third echelon, right,

734
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: That's how a blitzkrieg tactic is supposed to work. That's

735
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: not what the Russians did. In the first five days

736
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 1: or so of this invasion. They sent in that first echelon,

737
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 1: which included a tremendous deal of very elite special forces operators,

738
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 1: airborne troops, um, you know, spetsnaz and they sent in

739
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: elements of battalion task groups, but not cohesive ones. So

740
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 1: to the extent that Russian soldiers were engaging with Ukrainian soldiers,

741
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: it was often individual little units as opposed to like

742
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: combined arms forces where you have air support and artillery support.

743
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: And because the Russian army is is alart more than

744
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 1: anything an artillery army, right, um, And that's why you've

745
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: seen such terrible casualties and they do seem to be Again,

746
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: the Ukrainian government numbers can't be trusted, but there's enough

747
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: verified videos of of of successful Ukrainian drone strikes and

748
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: attacks that like they they have suffered significant losses. Um.

749
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: It's because they, I think, thought that these these sort

750
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: the sort of first echelon is all they would need

751
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: to collapse everything, and then they could bring in National

752
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,399
Speaker 1: Guard troops and conscript troops and and and and sort

753
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: of riot police kind of troops in after that, and

754
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: they would not be required to do some of the

755
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 1: things that they have had to do in places like Sear.

756
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: They wouldn't have to shell these cities into rubble. Um

757
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,240
Speaker 1: that that that things wouldn't go that far. And clearly

758
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: Ukrainian resistance has been significant enough that they're going to

759
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,280
Speaker 1: have to. So part of what we are seeing now

760
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: is Russia kind of reorienting their strategy and the fact

761
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 1: that this has been a funk up for them in

762
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 1: a lot of ways up to this point, and claim

763
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: the fact that they did not immediately gain air supremacy,

764
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: Um that they seem to have lost a significant number

765
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: of air assets and artillery assets to Ukrainian air power,

766
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: which still exists at this point. Um, that's evidence of

767
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 1: some substantial strategic and tactical failures by the Russians, But

768
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 1: it's not evidence that they're fucked, because Russia has a

769
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: lot of reserves to Yeah, they can keep going. Yeah,

770
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: the thing that we just saw yes one day ago.

771
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,720
Speaker 1: By the time we we we are recording this episode,

772
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 1: it will have been a couple of days, since you

773
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 1: know when you hear this is the deployment of thermobaric weapons,

774
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: which so artillery and air strikes do not work as

775
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 1: well as the people who advocate for their use like

776
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: to think. And one piece of events you can look

777
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 1: at like battles in World War One where you know,

778
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 1: the British or whoever would would fire a million shells

779
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: at a chunk of trench line a few miles long

780
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 1: and then get machine gun to pieces by the people

781
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 1: there because they didn't kill very many of them. Actually,

782
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 1: because if you're well dug in and whatnot, that doesn't

783
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 1: work as well. Um. And likewise, at the start of

784
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 1: this war, you saw a lot of Russian missiles, a

785
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 1: lot of Russian precision munitions like striking military targets, and

786
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 1: then still tremendous Ukrainian resistance. All of this sort of

787
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 1: shock and awe was not successful and disrupting Ukrainian command

788
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: and control. So now the Russians are deploying starting to

789
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: deploy what are called thermobaric weapons. And thermobaric weapons are

790
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:09,320
Speaker 1: the most frightening weapons humans have developed. They are not nuclear. Um.

791
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 1: The way they essentially work is it's it's a couple

792
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: of stages. So you have a precision munition that strikes

793
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 1: a target, it releases a cloud of explosive material, often

794
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 1: just like fuel, and then a second explosion ignites the cloud. Um.

795
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 1: So what that does is, among other things, sucks the

796
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 1: oxygen in from an area and and and it creates

797
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 1: a vacuum, right like. One of the ways people die

798
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: from thermo barracks is the the the the error is

799
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 1: ripped from their lungs um and the explosive force of

800
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,800
Speaker 1: the blast is titanic. Some thermobaric weapons, like the Moab

801
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 1: which Trump famously used in Afghanistan, and the Russians have

802
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:56,320
Speaker 1: their own version of this, are equivalent to low yield

803
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: nuclear weapons in terms of their destructive pair. They're not radioactive.

804
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 1: Obviously they're not nuclear, but in terms of the actual

805
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 1: radius of the blast and the weight radius of the shockwave,

806
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 1: they are equivalent to nuclear weapons. And there are no

807
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 1: functional fortifications that can really withstand them, at least not

808
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: unlike a tactical level. They wipe out troop formations. They

809
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: are nightmare weapons, and the Russians have a lot of

810
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 1: these to deploy, and the Russians have a lot of

811
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 1: air power to deploy, and we're starting to see that

812
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: being moved into position more effectively. Ukrainian resistance is still fierce.

813
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 1: You're also seeing stuff like as this, you know famous

814
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 1: now the current big I don't know meme of the war.

815
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 1: Is this Russian convoy heading towards Kiev, right, and there's

816
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 1: all everyone it's seventeen miles. No, it's just three or four, No,

817
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: it's forty miles. Like there's a lot of debate as

818
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 1: to how what kind of impact this, this, this will have.

819
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: And you're seeing Ukraine adopt tactics. There's been a lot

820
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,760
Speaker 1: of um an increasing kind of guerrilla tactics, taking supply

821
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,800
Speaker 1: vehicles and whatnot from this caravan, and like precision strikes

822
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: and whatnot. Um So i'min. We're not saying the situation

823
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 1: is doomed from their standpoint. There's a lot that could happen.

824
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: And in Russian losses have been very heavy, including on

825
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: some of their most elite troops. But at the end

826
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 1: of the day, if Putin commits fully, if there is

827
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: not a level of unrest in the streets of Russia

828
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 1: that they can't deal with, or a palace coup, and

829
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 1: if there is no outside intervention. Russia has the capacity

830
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 1: to level every building in Ukraine until there is no resistance.

831
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 1: They have done it in other places. It is not

832
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 1: a thing that is beyond their capacity. Well that was really, yeah,

833
00:47:38,360 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 1: depressing to listen to. And well here's together down. The

834
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 1: one other thing that I would like to get your

835
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,879
Speaker 1: guys thoughts on specifically is and we talked before about

836
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: how there's like, you know, having to verify footage, how

837
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 1: there's you know, a lot of footage is like actually

838
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 1: from from other places, from other kind of conflicts. So

839
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 1: there's been multiple instances of video footage and pictures from

840
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: Palestine being distributed to being from the Russian invasion um.

841
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: And it's interesting looking at but like how actions taken

842
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 1: in those photos are so people have there there's so

843
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 1: much more valid in the Russian Ukraine conflict that they

844
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 1: are in the Palestine Israel conflict. And I want to

845
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,359
Speaker 1: talk about like the selective validity of nations and how

846
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 1: efforts to defend your home from invading attacking forces are

847
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 1: viewed differently when all these extra political forces are at play,

848
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: like all like the xenophobia and racism happening um. In

849
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 1: one instance, um. And then you know, everyone accepting all

850
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 1: these refugees from Ukraine because they're white people. Um. So

851
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:54,760
Speaker 1: I would I would like to get your thoughts on

852
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 1: on those kind of notes that that have gathered. I

853
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 1: think the Boast the most striking example of that as

854
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 1: a video of a little girl who appears to be

855
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 1: a white girl in the video, like you would like,

856
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 1: that's what most people guessed upon seeing the video. They

857
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:14,760
Speaker 1: just she looked white to them, um, like kicking a soldier. Um.

858
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 1: And like the video was claiming like this is a

859
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 1: Ukrainian girl like kicking you know, a Russian occupier and

860
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 1: like look at the courage of Like the reality is

861
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: that she's a Palestinian girl kicking an Israeli soldier. And

862
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: she went to fucking prison for she's she's a very

863
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 1: she's actually relative relatively famous Palestinian activist who is part

864
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 1: of a family of activists subens organizing since to us

865
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 1: an eight Um. And she's been to prison. Her brothers

866
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,359
Speaker 1: and cousins have been have had their faces blown up

867
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:47,280
Speaker 1: by a regular by violence from from from Israeli forces. Um. Yeah.

868
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: And and she she has gone to prison for a

869
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 1: long time because of her efforts to combat and stand

870
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:58,320
Speaker 1: against these invading forces for her, for her home country.

871
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 1: And to be clear, she ended up going to prison

872
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 1: later than that picture was taken. They didn't imprison her

873
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 1: at age five, but I think she's But the point

874
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 1: is correct, this misinformation, but also these double standards that

875
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,879
Speaker 1: we have, you know, like blindness to the conflicts going

876
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 1: on on around the world. Okay, well America evaded lots

877
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 1: of places and nobody cares. You know, there's conflicts happening

878
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 1: all over the world. Um, we're still paying attention to

879
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: this one. Yeah, there's the there's a bleak and there's

880
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 1: a less bleak way of looking at it. And I

881
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: can't tell you which one is right. Both of them

882
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: have shades of right. One of them, which is true

883
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 1: is that, well, the victims are white and people care

884
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,320
Speaker 1: because Ukrainians are white and that's why this is getting

885
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 1: outraged when what happened and the civilized nation, right, that's right,

886
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:57,839
Speaker 1: that's the line that civilized conflict, like this isn't Africa,

887
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 1: this is Ukraine and Syria. You know this exactly whatever Syria?

888
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 1: Where we get the alphabet from anyway? Right of a

889
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 1: collection of like statements made by people on maintream platforms.

890
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: There was that Ukraine Deputy Chief prosecutor was on the BBC.

891
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: He said, it's very emotional for me because I see

892
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 1: European people with blue eyes and blonde terror being killed

893
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 1: on on on CBS, there was a foreign correspondent uh said,

894
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,760
Speaker 1: this isn't Iraq or Afghanistan. This is relatively civilized, relatively

895
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:36,280
Speaker 1: European city. Relatively it's it's like simolanously racist too, huge

896
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 1: chunks of the world and also pretty, but even place,

897
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 1: even places like even even places like Al Jazeera. There

898
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 1: was a commentator said, what's compelling is looking at them,

899
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 1: the way they're dressed, their prosperous middle class people. These

900
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 1: are not obviously refugees trying to get away from the

901
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: Middle East or from North Africa. They look like they

902
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:00,439
Speaker 1: look like any European family that you could live next

903
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 1: door to. Yeah, I mean, actually you can live next

904
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:10,359
Speaker 1: door to anybody. Yeah, its not just European families. I

905
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:13,840
Speaker 1: spend days on the refugee trail in two thousand and

906
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 1: fifteen talking to Syrians who had just immediately fled the

907
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 1: carpet bombing of their cities, and like, yeah, a lot

908
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:22,840
Speaker 1: of them were like doctors and accountants and lawyers and professors.

909
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 1: I think it doesn't doesn't make it more valid. But like, well,

910
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 1: the judging people they look, You're like, yeah, they're leaving

911
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: right now, they've just become refugees. Yeah, they're leaving their

912
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 1: homes in this moment. But I just mean, like the

913
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: idea of like you're you're talking about a stereotype of

914
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:45,840
Speaker 1: what you think of refugee is without like they're the

915
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:48,400
Speaker 1: type of people are reported. No, every refugee is leaving

916
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 1: their home and then they lose their ship and they

917
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 1: don't have a place to sleep and they're running and

918
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:55,919
Speaker 1: they're on the road and they can't you know, like

919
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 1: fuck you. It's it's it's it's frankly one of the

920
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 1: most gusting things. That's a commentary on this. There are

921
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 1: a couple more quotes if you want to, because I

922
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 1: think they're like, they're all worth I think you can

923
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,760
Speaker 1: just thin because they're all pretty nasty. You do something,

924
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: Oh good. So here are words that I don't believe,

925
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 1: but I'm reading it. This is a quote. Um, we

926
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,319
Speaker 1: are in the twenty one century, We're in a European city,

927
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:22,359
Speaker 1: and we have cruise missile fire as though we were

928
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 1: in Iraq or Afghanistan. Can you imagine? Can you imagine?

929
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: It's an important question talking can't? Yeah, can you? We're

930
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 1: not talking here about Syrians fleeing. We're talking about Europeans.

931
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 1: Excellent stuff. This time war is wrong because the people

932
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 1: look like us and have Instagram and Netflix accounts. It's

933
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: not in a poor, remote country anymore. Fuck you, you

934
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: piece of human ship. Daniel Hannon like maybe like worries,

935
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:58,439
Speaker 1: what does this fucker do for a living? Daily Telegraph? Okay, yeah,

936
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,359
Speaker 1: so somebody who should get a brick. God, that's a brick.

937
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 1: That is if you're looking at how you can help

938
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 1: in this current conflict. Brick people like that Instagram, Netflix accounts,

939
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:13,879
Speaker 1: Fuck you, piece of piece of dogs. Like there's it's

940
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 1: it's so comprehensively wrong, but that like, do you think

941
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 1: that having an Instagram or a Netflix makes you more human?

942
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:22,919
Speaker 1: And also do you think they don't have fucking Instagram

943
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 1: and Iraq? Like do you think they don't have That's

944
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 1: what I thought. It just like even just like if

945
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 1: you like, it's not even taking it out of context,

946
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:37,839
Speaker 1: if you just wrong because people look like part of

947
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 1: that sentence there was this very popular tweet from it's

948
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:45,840
Speaker 1: like a like a like a a news aggregator account,

949
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 1: um that's popular in this region. That was a quote

950
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 1: Polish border guard carries a young Ukrainian girl across the

951
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 1: border to safety in Poland. This is how real refugees

952
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 1: look like when in children. It's very it's on the

953
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 1: Belarusian board where it's mainly Middle Eastern men trying to

954
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: cross into Poland illegally. Unbelievable, Like it's really it is,

955
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 1: like it is it is believable. So like but it's

956
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: it's just gross. It's like it's it's it's really it's

957
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 1: like full full mask off on all these people. It's yeah,

958
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 1: um yeah, just like saying like yeah, so I guess

959
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 1: we know why you didn't care. Um, it's just really obvious.

960
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 1: Um and kind of like I don't know, I get

961
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 1: like it's one of those like you know, remembering back

962
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 1: in you know, the other wars. Um, just like it's

963
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:38,799
Speaker 1: just awful. Take like month of just like okay, just

964
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 1: like flood with like the worst opinions you could possibly imagine,

965
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 1: and it's all okay because it's war coverage. Like we

966
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 1: don't like there's uh like everyone's like less discerning, less

967
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:52,879
Speaker 1: careful with their words and how they frame things, and uh,

968
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 1: you know, some of these people might not even realize

969
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 1: what they're saying because they it's like you gotta say something,

970
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 1: you gotta talk, and like I'm gonna let myself out

971
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 1: all of that. And I don't have the exact quote

972
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 1: in front of me, but it was some motherfucker being

973
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 1: like celebrating, you know, Ukrainian resistance and being like, you know,

974
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 1: what Putin didn't count on is that this is the

975
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:12,359
Speaker 1: first war. We're social with social media, We're like, we're

976
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 1: seeing everything else. People realize is like are you are you?

977
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 1: Have you been fucking high the last fifteen years? I like,

978
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 1: I know I have spent a couple of hundred hours

979
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:29,839
Speaker 1: going through footage of multiple civil wars. I know people

980
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 1: who have spent thousands of it. Every second of the

981
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 1: Syrian Civil War has been either live streamed or tweeted

982
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 1: or facebooked or instagrammed. Same thing with the Iraqi Civil War.

983
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:42,720
Speaker 1: Same thing to a substantial extent with what's happened in Libya.

984
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 1: Same thing to a lesser extent, just because of I

985
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:48,399
Speaker 1: think some realities of infrastructure. But to a significant degree

986
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 1: with what's happening in Ethiopia and Tigray right now. Like

987
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:54,319
Speaker 1: you you are, there's no limit to the amount of

988
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 1: combat footage you can find. And this is not comprehensive.

989
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:00,440
Speaker 1: It's it's in Malaysia right or in Burma. UM huge

990
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 1: amount of that war has been documented online, has been

991
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 1: shown in videos, including like the protests up to beforehand

992
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:09,560
Speaker 1: and like the fucking gen Z militias that are now

993
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:14,319
Speaker 1: like fucking tick talking from the battlefield like this has

994
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 1: been happening for forever, and not only that, not just

995
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 1: are you wrong, this is the first ward that that's

996
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:23,479
Speaker 1: been a factor in Putin understood that he knew all

997
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 1: of this was going to happen. His gamble is that

998
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:29,280
Speaker 1: what are you gonna fucking do about it? I have

999
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 1: nukes and I have the ground power to win, unless

1000
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 1: NATO is willing to risk a nuclear war, which they won't.

1001
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's even even just as a recording

1002
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 1: I found. I found another one from UM one of

1003
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 1: the most one of the most popular Spanish TV news channels,

1004
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 1: saying these aren't like other children that we've become accustomed to.

1005
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:54,320
Speaker 1: These children are blonde with blue eyes, so this is

1006
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 1: very important. I mean, and again it's it's comprehensively wrong

1007
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 1: because like it as them being blonde matter. And it's

1008
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 1: also comprehensively wrong because, motherfucker, I have seen blonde kids

1009
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,360
Speaker 1: in refugee camps in three countries. No, it's like like

1010
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 1: like it's so it's so rais like it it's it's

1011
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 1: so right. Also, like the dismissal of any kind of

1012
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 1: conflict in Palestine, any conflict around like like Belarus, the

1013
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: Middle East, South Asia, it's like they just they it's

1014
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 1: it shows that they just view those people as less

1015
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 1: as like less human, right well, and while at the

1016
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 1: same time using images from those conflicts as propaganda for

1017
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 1: this conflict exactly exactly of why you humor that video

1018
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:38,680
Speaker 1: from where like that old man is on his bike

1019
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 1: moving backwards away from a police line and a cup

1020
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 1: shoves him and he cracks his head on the concrete

1021
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 1: and bleeds, and obviously that's fucked up. You should be

1022
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 1: angry at that, But like part of why people got

1023
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 1: so angry is he's not. He doesn't look like the

1024
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 1: people that's supposed to happen to exactly, you know, um,

1025
00:58:57,680 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 1: And that's a big chunk of this, and that's not

1026
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 1: I don't think that's surprising to anyone who listens to

1027
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 1: this show. No, it's not surprising, but it is. It

1028
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 1: is very bare watching them just express express how they

1029
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:10,240
Speaker 1: view less people, how how they've view so many people

1030
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:13,160
Speaker 1: as less human. Well well, yeah, just like Jessica Cody

1031
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 1: said at the same time, using footage from these conflicts

1032
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:19,720
Speaker 1: as like for their own propaganda, it's it's it's it's

1033
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:23,520
Speaker 1: so gross. Yeah. Well, I will say I think there

1034
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 1: is a potential optimistic side of this. I think it's

1035
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:28,560
Speaker 1: up to us to make it be optimistic. But there

1036
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 1: is a potential here, which is that a lot of

1037
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 1: the people who are so horrified by what's going on

1038
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 1: in ways that they weren't about other conflicts that have

1039
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:39,439
Speaker 1: been going on for years. It's not because like their

1040
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 1: monsters or they're actively racist. It's because that kind of

1041
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 1: ship didn't go viral for a lot of reasons that

1042
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 1: have very little to do with them, and so they

1043
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:49,520
Speaker 1: didn't see much of it, and they don't, like other

1044
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:52,160
Speaker 1: than vaguely knew that something was going on in serious

1045
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 1: something they're just not and they had shipped to do right.

1046
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 1: Everybody's got life going on. Everybody's like. I've talked to

1047
00:59:57,480 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 1: Ukrainians and I did when the war started, who were like,

1048
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 1: ID think it would happen here. As part of why

1049
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 1: I called the podcast it could happen here is when

1050
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 1: I was first reporting on that civil war, that was

1051
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 1: something people kept saying to me. Um, it was variants

1052
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 1: of like I didn't think it would happen like to me,

1053
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:16,920
Speaker 1: and maybe there. I think there is a potential in

1054
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 1: people who are now rightly horrified by what's happening in Ukraine,

1055
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 1: to get them to recognize how widely this is happening,

1056
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:26,080
Speaker 1: to get them to recognize this is the consequence of

1057
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 1: not dealing with authoritarianism on a global scale, of a

1058
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 1: lack of solidarity, of a lack of active willingness to

1059
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:34,920
Speaker 1: stand up for the rights of other people, and to

1060
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:39,080
Speaker 1: recognize the things going on in those countries is wrong. Um,

1061
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 1: I think there is a possibility to get people to

1062
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:44,960
Speaker 1: have more of an understanding for Palestine, more of an

1063
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:49,080
Speaker 1: understanding for Burma, more of an understanding and active solidarity

1064
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 1: for t Gray for a bunch of other parts of

1065
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 1: the world, because they're now activated in a moral sense,

1066
01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 1: and and and and to to a degree. That's the

1067
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 1: thing that's like, that's a thing that you can do,

1068
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 1: and I think the way to do that is not

1069
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 1: to again, you have to be It's not a matter

1070
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 1: of saying you shouldn't care about Ukraine because this bad

1071
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:11,360
Speaker 1: thing is happening here. It's a matter of saying, hey,

1072
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 1: you think that's funked up. It is, in addition happening.

1073
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 1: You have to care about it. You have to care

1074
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 1: about it in general. Not It requires people being willing

1075
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:28,440
Speaker 1: to look at these conflicts as authoritarians versus non authoritarians,

1076
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:33,120
Speaker 1: but not as um not as like sides in the

1077
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:37,400
Speaker 1: geopolitical sense, because right Turkey is very much against what

1078
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 1: Russia is doing in Ukraine. Because Turkey and Russia have been,

1079
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 1: for a very long time, longer than any of us

1080
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 1: have been alive, geopolitical rivals in some very specific ways

1081
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 1: that they find this threatening, and so they are sending

1082
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 1: weapons to Ukraine, and they are you know, potentially cutting

1083
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:56,240
Speaker 1: off Russian access to the Black Sea, um, doing a

1084
01:01:56,240 --> 01:02:00,120
Speaker 1: lot of stuff. Turkey is also engaged in continue this

1085
01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 1: gradual process of ethnic cleansing in northern Iraq and northeastern

1086
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 1: Syria UM, and they heavily supported a Zeriba, a Zerbaijan

1087
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 1: and ethnic cleansing in Armenia. Um, they're not good guys

1088
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:14,840
Speaker 1: because they're on the right side of this conflict. But

1089
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:19,280
Speaker 1: the Azeries and the Syrian and Iraqi Kords you should

1090
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 1: see as being broadly speaking, on the same side as

1091
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 1: the people resisting Putin, because they are all standing up

1092
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 1: against people who are trying to go into their fucking

1093
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:32,920
Speaker 1: homes and take that from them. Um. And and there

1094
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 1: isn't there is a degree to which you have to

1095
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:40,160
Speaker 1: understand the inherent solidarity of all people suffering and fighting

1096
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 1: against this kind of of of horror without letting that

1097
01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 1: lead you to the simple simplifying things. It's like, okay,

1098
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:51,720
Speaker 1: Russia bad, US good. You know, Turkey good, Uh, Russia bad?

1099
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:54,919
Speaker 1: Or Turkey bad, Russia good or like all like don't

1100
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:59,520
Speaker 1: don't let like because that that's part of how it

1101
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 1: is black and white. It's just doesn't black and white

1102
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:06,280
Speaker 1: in terms of fucking borders. I mean, even yes, there was,

1103
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 1: it's it's so horrifying because even like there was this

1104
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:11,960
Speaker 1: transcript of a Russians of arrestan Russian soldiers text messages

1105
01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 1: to his mother that kind of went viral. Jesus Christ.

1106
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:18,120
Speaker 1: Two days ago. It was like his his his mom.

1107
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:20,400
Speaker 1: He was telling his mom that he's no longer in Crimea,

1108
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:23,520
Speaker 1: he's not in training sessions anymore. His mom asks him,

1109
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:25,920
Speaker 1: like where he is and where they can where they

1110
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 1: can send a care package to He replies, what kind

1111
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:32,200
Speaker 1: of parcel? Mom? What can you send me? I just

1112
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:34,880
Speaker 1: want to hang myself now. And Mom's like, what are

1113
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 1: you talking about? What's happened? He said, Mom, I'm in Ukraine.

1114
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 1: There's a real war raging here. I'm afraid. We are

1115
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 1: bombing all the cities together, even targeting civilians. We were

1116
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:46,000
Speaker 1: told that they would welcome us, and they are falling

1117
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:49,000
Speaker 1: under our armored vehicles, throwing themselves under our wheels, not

1118
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:51,840
Speaker 1: allowing us to pass. They call us fascists. Mama, this

1119
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 1: is so hard, like everyone involved, it's all miserable for

1120
01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 1: like like for a lot of people. There is there

1121
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 1: is there is some sickos that do enjoy the war,

1122
01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:07,280
Speaker 1: but the special but like most of them, but he's

1123
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 1: this Russia, this Russia's shoulder who just who just wants

1124
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:12,400
Speaker 1: to hang himself because of all this happening. And if you,

1125
01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:14,760
Speaker 1: if you miss that, I think you're really missing out

1126
01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 1: on a lot of a lot of what's actually happening,

1127
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 1: because this is an important aspect to recognize, even though

1128
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:23,720
Speaker 1: it's it's tough to think about. Yeah, the war, it's

1129
01:04:23,720 --> 01:04:27,000
Speaker 1: a horrors of war. There are a bunch of kids

1130
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:30,800
Speaker 1: that or men, young men however old, that joined the

1131
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:36,320
Speaker 1: army and now, well they don't mean they don't president

1132
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:39,160
Speaker 1: is making them go do this thing. They don't often

1133
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:42,640
Speaker 1: choose to in Russia because a lot of them are conscripts,

1134
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:44,480
Speaker 1: and even when they do the contract soldiers, a lot

1135
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:45,880
Speaker 1: of them do it because it's a way to get

1136
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 1: like a government paid for apartment and they didn't necessarily

1137
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 1: expect this to happen. And it's most military prey on

1138
01:04:54,240 --> 01:05:00,200
Speaker 1: uh exact, there's this fucked up like the reality is,

1139
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 1: you know, to go back to people talking about like

1140
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:05,800
Speaker 1: these people have Instagrams and Netflix, like there's a there's

1141
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:08,160
Speaker 1: a lot of kids who would much rather be fucking

1142
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:11,880
Speaker 1: around on Instagram or playing pub g or whatever first

1143
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:15,200
Speaker 1: person shooter or something, and are having are burning to

1144
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:19,920
Speaker 1: death and armored personnel carriers, um. And that's that's not

1145
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:22,640
Speaker 1: that's not good either, doesn't mean that like I don't

1146
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 1: support Ukrainians firing as many anti tank missiles as they

1147
01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 1: can into as many armored vehicles as try to enter

1148
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:33,760
Speaker 1: their country because that's the fucking situation. Um, but it's

1149
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:38,120
Speaker 1: not Yeah, it's none of it's worth celebrating, yea. To

1150
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:42,919
Speaker 1: your point in like earlier point, I think it's it's

1151
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 1: kind of a bummer that this is like the only, uh,

1152
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:50,000
Speaker 1: I guess positive thing like out of so many stories

1153
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:53,120
Speaker 1: where like the thing you take away from is like, well,

1154
01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 1: I guess people will realize more that things are bad

1155
01:05:57,280 --> 01:06:00,760
Speaker 1: in these ways that they haven't previously. And that seems

1156
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:03,760
Speaker 1: to be like the case with so many things these days,

1157
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:06,560
Speaker 1: where it's like, well, at least people are realizing that

1158
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:12,600
Speaker 1: it's bad, um like leading to okays will like people

1159
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:15,640
Speaker 1: realize something else about it, but isn't enough. And I

1160
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:18,320
Speaker 1: don't want to. I don't want it to come across

1161
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 1: as like that's what I'm saying that at saying it

1162
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:26,720
Speaker 1: is a responsibility to make people to make that matter, right,

1163
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:28,400
Speaker 1: like that if you're actually looking at what you can do,

1164
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:31,320
Speaker 1: you tweeting about Zelinski doesn't matter. You're tweeting even you

1165
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:33,960
Speaker 1: tweeting like videos of like whatever thing you think might

1166
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:37,200
Speaker 1: be a war crime or whatever, almost certainly will not matter.

1167
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:41,760
Speaker 1: What does matter is the extent to which you can

1168
01:06:41,800 --> 01:06:45,080
Speaker 1: get people to realize what's actually going on here, and

1169
01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:51,560
Speaker 1: that being anti war is meaningless. Being anti Russia is meaningless.

1170
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:58,000
Speaker 1: Being understanding the dynamics of the global net inner war,

1171
01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:02,280
Speaker 1: of this interlocking net of con lifts where different authoritarian

1172
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:08,000
Speaker 1: powers are bringing tremendous violence on populations of people for

1173
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:11,280
Speaker 1: the geopolitical gains of a tiny number of people. Understanding

1174
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:13,600
Speaker 1: the way that networks, and understanding that the only way

1175
01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:17,160
Speaker 1: to actually combat it um is a mix of solidarity

1176
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 1: and at times open armed resistance as we're seeing in Ukraine,

1177
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:23,320
Speaker 1: as is happening in Burmaz, is happening in Northeast, series

1178
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:26,920
Speaker 1: is happening in all these other parts of the world. Um,

1179
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:29,360
Speaker 1: that is the thing, and and and and get in

1180
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 1: seeing that is connected. Seeing the struggles of Palestinians against

1181
01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:36,520
Speaker 1: against Israeli soldiers, as connected to the struggles of Ukrainian

1182
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:39,880
Speaker 1: civilians against Russian soldiers, even though Israel sending weapons to

1183
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:44,080
Speaker 1: Ukraine right now. That is something that we can all

1184
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:46,880
Speaker 1: have a role in furthering. And I think that's the

1185
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:52,479
Speaker 1: productive thing that people can do. Yeah, yeah, alright, that's

1186
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:55,560
Speaker 1: it for us today, I think, but we will obviously

1187
01:07:55,640 --> 01:07:58,919
Speaker 1: continue talking about this. Yeah. One last note. If you're

1188
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:01,520
Speaker 1: looking for a Twitter account to follow that is actually

1189
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:05,920
Speaker 1: putting effort into verifying videos and images that they find

1190
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:09,280
Speaker 1: and is doing what I consider to be a competent

1191
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:12,920
Speaker 1: job of that. Robb Ly are a Lee eight five

1192
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:17,000
Speaker 1: on Twitter um has has done pretty consistently a good

1193
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:20,559
Speaker 1: job of like not just vetting things, but sharing other

1194
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:23,000
Speaker 1: things that other people have vetted. If you actually want

1195
01:08:23,040 --> 01:08:24,639
Speaker 1: to keep up with it in that way, it's better

1196
01:08:24,680 --> 01:08:29,240
Speaker 1: than just watching random people share videos from chunks from

1197
01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:34,439
Speaker 1: video games that have been you know, color corrected or whatever. Okay,

1198
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:43,040
Speaker 1: thank you, all right guys, um, yeah, watch yourself online.

1199
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:57,560
Speaker 1: They'll be back. So I tried. Worst Year Ever is

1200
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:00,280
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcast from

1201
01:09:00,280 --> 01:09:03,440
Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1202
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:05,360
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.