1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: I cannot fathom that I could work in the direction 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: of healing and not kill myself except for the presence 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: of Kim in my life. 4 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 2: She saved by, She saved it. Welcome to an army 5 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 2: of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'm a normal guy. 6 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 2: I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm an entrepreneur, and 7 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 2: I've been a football coach in Inner City Memphis. In 8 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 2: the last part, it unintentionally led to an oscar for 9 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 2: the film about our team. It's called Undefeated. Guys. I 10 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 2: believe our country's problems will never be solved by a 11 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 2: bunch of fancy people in nice suits using big words 12 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 2: that nobody ever understands on CNN and Fox, but rather 13 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 2: an army of normal folks US just you and me deciding, Hey, 14 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 2: I can help Today. We've got a powerful feature from 15 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 2: our special series called Supporting Greatness. This is where we 16 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 2: interview not so normal folks like Mike Rowe and Medal 17 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 2: of Honor recipient David Bellavia. But instead of blowing smoke 18 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 2: up their rear ends and talking about how great they are, 19 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: we interview them with the idea of celebrating the normal 20 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 2: folks who came along in their lives. They're unsung heroes 21 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 2: who've supported them and shaped their greatness. Today's guest, Paul 22 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 2: Young wrote a book that sold twenty five million copies 23 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 2: and it became a movie starring Tim McGraw and Octavia Spencer. 24 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 2: But as just heard, this wouldn't have happened if Paul's 25 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 2: wife didn't save his life. I can't wait for you 26 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 2: to meet Paul right after these brief messages from our 27 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 2: general sponsors. Welcome to an armory, normal folks. Today is 28 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 2: a exciting day. You're going to say it again? 29 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:20,119 Speaker 1: Oh do you say that all the time? 30 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 2: Yeah? For those listening. The reason I said say it 31 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 2: again is we've already started this interview and dropped the 32 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 2: first five minutes of audio, so we're starting over. 33 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: But that's like my life. 34 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: That's right, it's a redo, you know we're calling. We're 35 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 2: calling an audible. 36 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 1: Well, since we started this one time, let me introduce 37 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: myself and fix some of your errors. 38 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 2: Oh okay, how did I air? 39 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: Okay? So I am I am William Paul Young, one 40 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: of four generations of Williams who'd got none of us 41 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: go by our first names, so I go by Paul 42 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: and Canadian born grew up in the highlight of New Guinea, 43 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 1: which was as a missionary kid. I did not intend 44 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: to be a published author. In fact, it took me 45 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: two years until Kim confronted me and said, you got 46 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: to stop saying you're an accidental author like you actually did. 47 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 2: Write a book. 48 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: And I wrote a book. Twenty six publishers turned it down, 49 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: and a couple guys I know said, actually, I asked, 50 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: how do you publish a book? And so they created 51 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: a little publishing house for I don't know, five hundred 52 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: bucks in California. They found a printing company that would 53 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: actually print it. Now you need to understand that I 54 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: wrote this book as a Christmas present for my six kids. 55 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 2: That was it. 56 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: And Kim had said, someday, as a gift for our kids, 57 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: would you just write something that puts in one place 58 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: how you think? But I never felt healthy enough. I 59 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: never felt ready. And when I finally felt healthy enough, 60 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: I went down to office deep at Christmas because Kinko's 61 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: was across but a little more expensive, and I made 62 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: fifteen copies on their photocopy machine and put a little 63 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: plastic cover, a little binding on the side, and at fifteen, 64 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: you get a price break. So otherwise I had just 65 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: done enough for the kids, and us six went to 66 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: our six children. Kim and I kept a copy and 67 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: the extra ones I just gave to my friends and 68 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: I went back to work, working three jobs at the time, 69 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 1: and so my friends start giving it away, and so 70 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: we actually took a little collection so that I can 71 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: make fifteen more copies. And I start getting these crazy emails. 72 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: Now this is a world. I don't know anything about 73 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: publishing and write. I've always written stuff, but mostly as 74 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: little gifts for friends and family. The early stuff when 75 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: I was inside all my crap, I burned most of that, 76 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: partly because I was afraid my dad would find it. 77 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: And then these emails. I didn't know what to do 78 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: with them because they weren't like you'd expect. They weren't like, oh, 79 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: great book, thank you, thank you. They were exposing their lives. 80 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: They were saying, you know, my daughter was killed by 81 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: a drunk driver, and I'm stuck, and your book has 82 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: giving me given me a way to face some of 83 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: these things and see if there's a way through that 84 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: kind of thing. And I didn't know what to do. 85 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: So I'd met an actual author one time and he 86 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,919 Speaker 1: needed a driver, so I drove him around and so 87 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: I had his email. So I emailed him and said, 88 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: you know, I wrote this thing, and I'm getting these 89 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: emails and I don't know what to do about them, 90 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: and here's an example. And he writes me back and says, 91 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: what did you write? 92 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 2: Great question? Yeah, what you wrote is the shot I did. 93 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 2: And a bunch of people listening to us have probably 94 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 2: either read it or watched the movie, much like I 95 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: did last night as a refresher course. And the thing 96 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 2: about The Shock is from its humble beginnings, which we're 97 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 2: going to get into a little more to the fortieth 98 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 2: most highest selling book and human history fiction fiction fiction, 99 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 2: so forty that is, that is thin air when you're 100 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 2: of all the books in human history, to be ranked 101 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 2: number forty is unbelievable, especially from its meager beginnings, which 102 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 2: I would argue weeks of divine intervention on your behalf. 103 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: When we all we spend we spend part of every 104 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: day going like this is nuts. Right, It's as crazy 105 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: to me today as ever. 106 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 2: Listen, I get it, I really do get it. 107 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: You do get it. 108 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 2: I do get it. Some dudes showed up with a 109 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 2: camera and followed me around for five hundred and fifty hours. 110 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 2: And two years later, I'm walking down the red carpet 111 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 2: the Academy Awards. You and I are kindred spirits in 112 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 2: that part, and that I don't even know. 113 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: I love what you did. 114 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 2: Well, thank you, So let's talk about that. But what 115 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 2: I want to say is we want to unpack this 116 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 2: story about you, because I think people will be vastly 117 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 2: interested in how you got to where you are. But 118 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 2: this show an army and normal folks, and this segment 119 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 2: supporting Greatness is about the normal folks. The unk soun 120 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 2: heroes in your life that helped you get to this 121 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 2: point that we also want to celebrate and talk about. 122 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 2: So we'll get to that, but please pick up with 123 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 2: what do I do with this? What do I do 124 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 2: with this thing? I wrote for my children? 125 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so this this kind of actual author friend, 126 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: He says, what he'd what did you write? So I 127 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: sent him an electronic copy and he does the author thing, 128 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: which is great. I understand it because I get sent 129 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: all kinds of things. And he goes, well, you know, 130 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: it might take me six months. I said, I don't 131 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: care if you read it. You asked what I did, 132 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: and that was on a Friday night. On Monday, he 133 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: phones me, which had never happened, and he says, why 134 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: did you send me that manuscript? And I go, like, 135 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: just throw it out because I thought he was offended, 136 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: and he goes, He goes, no, no, no, I can't 137 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 1: print the pages fast enough. He said, I don't know 138 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: if I've read anything in the last dozen years. Where 139 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,719 Speaker 1: my first thought is I have a dozen friends who 140 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: need to read this. And I said, well, send it 141 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: to him. He said, already did. So that's what started 142 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: the conversation. And at first the first things that he 143 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,079 Speaker 1: and his buddies wanted to do was make a movie, 144 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: but we decided they really encouraged me to actually put 145 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: this into print, so we spent time. I'm working my 146 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:14,559 Speaker 1: three jobs up in Portland area. We got it ready, 147 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: we put a cover on it, we edited it as 148 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: best we can, and in May of two thousand and 149 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 1: seven it was ready, but it got turned down by 150 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: twenty six publishers. Half of them were secular publishers. 151 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 2: Just twenty six. Well it's only if you say, just 152 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 2: it doesn't seem so bad, just SI. 153 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: It was only just twenty six and only. 154 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 2: Twenty six cent manuscript wasn't worth printing. 155 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, well they had a problem. The secular folks thought 156 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: it was it had too much Jesus in it, and 157 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: the Christian folks thought it. 158 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 2: Was too edgy. 159 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 1: Plus neither of the groups knew where to put it 160 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: in a store. 161 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 2: I'm so glad you said that about edgy because I 162 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 2: want to ask you about that later. And we will 163 00:09:55,240 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 2: return to that, because first we get We're going to 164 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 2: get to that, but first I want to bring our 165 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 2: listeners along. Would you briefly take us through one year 166 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 2: old two riding this thing in the first place? 167 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was born in Grand Prairie, Alberta and. 168 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 2: Saw loop that sounds like a heath Hall place. Well, 169 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 2: get matulation two thousand and. 170 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: My dad had a church with a with a graduate 171 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: from the same Bible school, and there were six people there. 172 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 2: You go, I now live. 173 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: I now live in Brush Prairie, Washington. There's some kind 174 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: of irony. 175 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 2: Something with prairie exactly, and maybe you're a prairie dog. 176 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: Maybe it's a possibility. So a year old, the three 177 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: of us, my mom and dad and I. I was 178 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: the first born, and we moved to the other side 179 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: of the world, the big island, second largest island in 180 00:10:55,120 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: the world, right above Australia, and into the part of 181 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: the island among the Dawni tribal people. 182 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 2: And this is New Guinea. 183 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: This is New Guinea and now called West Papua. And 184 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: because it's gone through all kinds of changes, it was 185 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: a Dutch colonized country. It then moved to a un 186 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 1: protectorate because the Dutch vacated because they were afraid of 187 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 1: the Indonesians, and the Indonesians then came and took over, 188 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: and the tribal people had no say in anything. Plus 189 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: they didn't understand. Our tribe was Stone age culture. They 190 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: didn't have any metal in the culture and warring, but agrarian, 191 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: so they had a lot of It was beautiful. New 192 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: Guinea goes from right off the equator and the heat 193 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: there all the way up to glaciers, and so these 194 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: different tribes are all over the place. Nobody had gone 195 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: in there. Nobody knew the language. But I'm a year 196 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: old and so it's my first dreaming language. And in 197 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: the missionary culture at the time, they were busy doing 198 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: God's work, and so the children were raised by the 199 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: culture and so I didn't have a lot of connection 200 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: to my parents. At six, I was sent to boarding school, 201 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: and which is I think a horrible thing because so 202 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: many missionary kids got sacrificed for the mission. And at six, 203 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: I mean, I've got grandchildren who are six, and I 204 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: look at them going like, how in the. 205 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 2: World would you ever send a shout off? 206 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, how could you do that? 207 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 2: And is there a justification? That a a inaccurate but 208 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 2: assumed justification at that time I'm involved in that work 209 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:48,959 Speaker 2: that it's well, I'm I'm justifying sending my six year 210 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 2: year old off to be raised by somebody because I'm 211 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 2: doing quote God, God's religious work. 212 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: That's that's kind of the justification. If Abraham is willing 213 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: to sacrifice his son, why aren't you willing to sacrifice 214 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: your children? And the mission over rode the health of 215 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: the children. 216 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 2: And now a few messages from our generous sponsors. But first, 217 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 2: I hope you'll consider becoming a premium member of the 218 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 2: Army at Normalfolks dot us. By becoming one for ten 219 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 2: dollars a month or one thousand dollars a year, you 220 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 2: can get access to cool benefits like bonus episodes, a 221 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 2: yearly group call and even a one on one call 222 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 2: with me. Frankly, guys, premium memberships also help us to 223 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 2: grow this army that our country desperately needs right now. 224 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 2: So I hope you'll think about it. We'll be right back. 225 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 2: So if you went there one, you're more New Guinea 226 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 2: than you are. 227 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: I didn't have did not have a conscious awareness until 228 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: I went to boarding school that I was white. And 229 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: it was a huge disappointment, you know, it was. It 230 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: was a I didn't have a tearing from my parents. 231 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: I had a tearing from the culture. But it's also yeah, 232 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: and so the tribal culture I had already started to 233 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: experience sexual abuse, but it really ramped up in boarding school. 234 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 2: And uh and so you got the boarding school in 235 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 2: New Guinea. 236 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, on the coast. You know you flew there because it's. 237 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 2: Done by run by the Mission Native New Guineas. 238 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no no no, it was no, it 239 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: was run by the mission. Oh okay, and all of this, 240 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: like you were saying, it's not justification, but it was 241 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: done with the best intent. But the message for you 242 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: can't you can't talk about what's going on behind the 243 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: doors because you may be you may be sending people 244 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: to hell because you're going to impact the mission. 245 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 2: Iority of ironies that good intentions lead the road to hell, 246 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 2: and the missionaries were wrought in it. 247 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know they went there. My parents went there. 248 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: My mother was a medical missionary. She destroyed a disease 249 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: in the culture that was just Yeah. And my dad 250 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: was a pioneer. He was a hunter trapper growing up, 251 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: but he came from a huge amount of damage and 252 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: I didn't know that. All I knew was that he 253 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: terrified me and he hit really hard. 254 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 2: And so was he physically abusive, Yes, yes, so by. 255 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: The age, but his dad had destroyed his capacity to 256 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: be a father before I ever showed up. 257 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 2: Oh. I picked that up in the book and the 258 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 2: movie that You Were. You explain through discovery in the 259 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 2: movie and the book that the anger you must have 260 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 2: held early for your father, you started to understand that 261 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 2: he was only a victim of the same thing that 262 00:15:58,040 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 2: you were. 263 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: I didn't understand that to a lot of years later. 264 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 265 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: I have an aunt who had just turned one hundred 266 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: and three, and she wrote this really massive, beautiful book 267 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: that's wrenching because she was a truth teller inside the 268 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: history of our family, you know. And so she went 269 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: back and I was able to see the damage and 270 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: the damage and the damage, and actually my dad broke 271 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: some of that. And because he broke some of that, 272 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: I eventually was able to take more steps away from 273 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: my history. 274 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 2: That's interesting. So even though you, even though you remember 275 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 2: your father's abusive, you also credit him with at least 276 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 2: the steps toward breaking the abuse. Absolutely, So by seven 277 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 2: you're in this by six, By six you're in this 278 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 2: home and you've already been sexually and physically abused. 279 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: Correct, Plus you have this huge abandonment issue and you 280 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: don't know who you are. 281 00:16:58,040 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 2: Well, that's another form of abuse. 282 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: No question about it. And you're moving from culture to culture. 283 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 2: Did the sexual abuse happen by. 284 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: The DAWNI people? Yea, yes, But is. 285 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 2: That part of the culture. 286 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: That's the question. I don't have an answer to. Was 287 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: I targeted or was this simply part of how the 288 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 1: culture moved? And all I know is the memories that 289 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: are very clear and the impact on me what it did. 290 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: And then going to boarding school to have the oldest 291 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: boys come visit the youngest boys in the middle. 292 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 2: Of the night, were you terrified? 293 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I had I had night terrors from 294 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: the time I can remember. And you know, there is 295 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: like in missionary those that were sent away among elementary 296 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 1: age kids, the majority of them are bedwetters. The majority 297 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: of them are trying to find a way to survive 298 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: and are you know, usually the people who are at 299 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: least equipped end up overseeing the boarding schools because they're 300 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: they're down the chain in terms of being good at 301 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: the pioneer mission side, and so the children are just 302 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: trying to find a way to survive. 303 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 2: And it sounds like in Summer Cards then made a 304 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 2: run in the asylum from the older kids standpoint. 305 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: In a way, you know, And so it's very heavily 306 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,199 Speaker 1: legalistic in terms of its theology and in terms of 307 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: its organization. 308 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 2: Sounds quite religious. 309 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, in the most despicable sorts of ways. And 310 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: unfortunately a lot of us grew up with not only 311 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 1: what we have experienced, but behind it is a theology 312 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: that was very similar, you know, because who do you 313 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: look toward in terms of your view of God as 314 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: a child. If your father happens to be there, father's 315 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 1: not there, then God is often gone somewhere and has 316 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: abandoned you. If your father's there and abusive, then God 317 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 1: is easily projected as an abusive character. Like one of 318 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: my missionary kids, after the shock came out, sent me 319 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: a letter and said, I grew up not knowing what 320 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: the difference between God and Satan was. Except with Satan, 321 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: I always knew where I stood, you know, with God, 322 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,479 Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you at any given point where I stood. 323 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 1: So oftentimes for us, Jesus became the mediator between us 324 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 1: and God because God was of a different character in 325 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: nature right, And so you got. 326 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 2: To all this, which yeah, ironically means the relationship between 327 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 2: Christ's Holy Spirit and God was commpletely destroyed. And therefore, 328 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 2: if you don't understand the Trinity, you don't understand Chrace 329 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 2: or the faith. 330 00:19:55,520 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: Correct, if you don't understand that God is love and 331 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 1: that God has never killed anybody, and that God is 332 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: not a judge to you know, God is not the 333 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 1: judge in the law courtroom, but a judge who's a doctor. 334 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: I mean, there's all these different pieces that we weren't told. 335 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 1: Plus I grew up with piece of theology that is 336 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: that the truth of who you are is like like 337 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: luth like Kelvin said, we are snow covered dung, you know, 338 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: and you're just a piece of crap and you're trying 339 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: to find your way out and God has come to 340 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: help you. But the truth of who you are is 341 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: that you're a piece of garbage. 342 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 2: I would just venture to say, that's a lot of 343 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 2: six years old Paul. 344 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: And then at ten we moved back to Canada. 345 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:54,640 Speaker 2: And so you find with this foundation, you found a life, 346 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 2: and you get married and you start down the. 347 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: Road, right, and you don't want to talk about history 348 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: because you're so ashamed. And and I'm not saying this 349 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: out of a still damaged place. I'm saying it out 350 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: of the tenderness of the losses, right that not just me, 351 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 1: but a lot of those I love have experienced in 352 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: similar ways. And the older I get, the more it's 353 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: obvious that so many of us are lost inside of 354 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: our damage. And so yes, by twelve, and I am 355 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: a porn addict because pornography is just the imagination of 356 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: a relationship without the risk of a real one. I 357 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: couldn't take the risk of a real one because I 358 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: couldn't tell my secrets, because I couldn't take the risk 359 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: of seeing the look of disgust on another human's face. 360 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 1: And so what do you do. You become a player 361 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: to the audience. And those who have been sexually abused 362 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: know that they're hyper vigilant. They know where the doors 363 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,479 Speaker 1: in the windows are, they can read the audience, and 364 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:10,919 Speaker 1: they know how to stay safe. So you are a 365 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: different person in every situation that there's an audience, and 366 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: you compartmentalize, you shut down your emotional world. My dad 367 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: helped me do that, and you just try to live logically, 368 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: and lying becomes your survival mechanism because you're constantly driven 369 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: to a point of perfection. And my dad had a 370 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: lot to do with that. The way to avoid his 371 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: wrath was to be perfect. And when he came after me, 372 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: I had two mechanisms. One was to lie in such 373 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 1: a way that he believed me, which he mostly didn't 374 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 1: and a lot of times it wouldn't have mattered anyway. 375 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: But the other one was to yell at him these words, 376 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: I'll be good, I'll be good. I'll be good, I'll 377 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: be good, I'll be good. Just give me another chance. Yes, 378 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: And every time I said that, I was saying because 379 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: I'm bad, because I'm bad, because I'm bad, you know, 380 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: And so that spills over to your view of God. 381 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: God's constantly telling you, you know, you're bad and you 382 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 1: need to be good, and so you have perfectionist religious 383 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: types of performance on top of everything else. 384 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 2: And because you're bad, make sure you carry this backpack 385 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 2: of guilt around with you. 386 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and guilt. Guilt. It's not guilt, it's guilt 387 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: as I've done something wrong. That's one thing. Shame, as 388 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: I am shit, I am something wrong, right, And those 389 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 1: of us who've grown up in that kind of environment, 390 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 1: it's shame and fear. Those become the two drivers of 391 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: your whole life. And the things you cannot access is 392 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: love and trust. 393 00:23:54,280 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 2: We'll be right back. So you carry all this from 394 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 2: six to twelve. 395 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: Then you get married, right, And I'd already gone to 396 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: thirteen schools, so I knew how. 397 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:17,719 Speaker 2: To leave, leaving you perfected. 398 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I could even do it in a religious way. 399 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: I could say, I think God has called me somewhere else. 400 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 2: Oh, now, that's an interesting thing. I hear that a lot, 401 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 2: and I do believe that sometimes it cass people, and 402 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 2: people legitimately feel called. I also believe that I've heard 403 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 2: that and I've looked at it with a little bit 404 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 2: of an ear and eye of suspicion, thinking are you 405 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 2: being called or are you escaping? 406 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and for some of us, it's definitely, especially if 407 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: our false persona begins to disintegrate because it cannot it 408 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: cannot sustain it. 409 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 2: Someone starts to look into you and get to know 410 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 2: you a little too much, you better feel called to 411 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 2: something else. Exactly, I'm called yeh out yep. 412 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 1: And a false persona. You know how you can tell 413 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 1: a false persona It will self protect and self promote. 414 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: If you don't know who you are and you're in 415 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 1: a situation where you have to defend yourself, you will 416 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 1: self promote and self protect if you know who you are. 417 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: The external kinds of things that people say will not 418 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: matter because you know. 419 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 2: Who you are, because you are confident. 420 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't have to self protect. 421 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 2: But you didn't know who you were at this I. 422 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:37,199 Speaker 1: Had no idea, no idea who God was. Boy that 423 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,479 Speaker 1: was I. I had such a draw in one sense 424 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: to the beauty not only of creation, but to the 425 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: beautiful side of God. It was just that God as 426 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: father was ambivalent like mine. I couldn't trust what was 427 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: going on from one moment to the next. 428 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 2: So you may have known who he was, but you 429 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 2: had no idea how to have a personal relationship. 430 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: No, so Jesus became the one that I could be. 431 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 1: I could have an easier time here. Yeah, and we did. 432 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: We were conservative Evangelicals. So the Holy Spirit had already 433 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: left by the end of the first century, and so 434 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: well the Trinity was the Son, the Father, and the 435 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: Holy Bible, you know, and we'd already given up the 436 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: capacity to actually hear for ourselves. We've given it to 437 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: the professionals and to the educated. And then, you know, 438 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: a couple hundreds, well one hundred years ago, they came 439 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: up with this thing called, you know, the inerrancy and 440 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: the infallibility of scripture. And this will this will bother 441 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: some of my people for me to say this, But 442 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: it's only one hundred years old. 443 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 2: And people need to be bothered, yeah, I know, and 444 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 2: bother them. Yeah. 445 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 1: And these these are my people whom I love dearly, 446 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: you know, and. 447 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 2: If you love them, you need to ruffle them. 448 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, they're not wild about me all the time. 449 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 3: But but but as soon as you create an idea 450 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 3: of the the in fact, now I know Scripture is inspired, 451 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 3: but I know James Taylor is inspired. 452 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: I know Elton John is all inspired. 453 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 2: Means young yeah, the musician one. 454 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: I know, he's every time you go Away. Yep, so 455 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: theme song, you know. And so I know that I 456 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: love the Scripture, but for ten years I had to 457 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: not read a word in it because it was so 458 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: toxic in terms of the way that it was presented 459 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: to me. And then slowly, slowly, slowly, it became something 460 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: incredibly beautiful, incredibly precious. But you know, part of what 461 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: the beauty of God's relationship with us is that God 462 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: submits to us, and God submitted to his own people 463 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: to write his story. And when you go back, you 464 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: have this genocidal God right along with one who's telling 465 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,040 Speaker 1: you that he's in covenantal relationship with you because his 466 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: historians they're coming from cultures where God is genocidal and territorial, 467 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: and so they're just beginning to see the beauty, but 468 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: they're stuck inside their old ways of thinking. And slowly 469 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: the poets begin to see things better, and then the 470 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: prophets begin to see things better. And when Jesus comes, 471 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 1: you have the clearest revelation of the character and nature 472 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: of God, you know, and so those kinds of things 473 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,959 Speaker 1: were really important for me to deal with My history 474 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: is the way that it was given to me by 475 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: the Church. And so I'm carrying all this baggage him 476 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: doesn't know anything about it. I marry her and we 477 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: hadn't even really dated. But she figured out when I 478 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: asked her that if she said no, I would never 479 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: ask her again. That's true because my shame base was 480 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: so big. So she was thinking if I say yes, 481 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: I can back out, and that's actually insane out Yeah yeah, yeah, 482 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: so so and we were married eleven days later. So, 483 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a wild, crazy story. But I cannot 484 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: fathom that I could work in the direction of healing 485 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: and not kill myself except for the presence of Kim 486 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: in my life. 487 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 2: She saved my life. 488 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: She saved it, and she paid a high price. You know. 489 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: She caught me in a three month affair with one 490 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: of her best friends, and it blew up the world. 491 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: And I'd always been like, there must be a way 492 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: to change without dealing with your history. So I you know, 493 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: I was constantly recommitting myself, but not not a truth teller. 494 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: How do you deal with all that stuff, and I 495 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: pulled the yellow pages off the shelf, looked under counselors. 496 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: Kim did not demand that. What Kim demanded was you 497 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: will be the one we didn't make my adultery the 498 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: new secret. In fact, the first person that I told 499 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: was her dad, who lived with us for seventeen years. 500 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: His name's Willard, and he died on his birthday in 501 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: two thousand and two. But his name's Willard, we all 502 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: called him Willie. So the Willie in the shack is 503 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: Kim's dad. And when I told him, I wanted him 504 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: to beat the hell out of me, because I have 505 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: a defense mechanism for that, but I don't have any 506 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: for kindness and for care and compassion. And I watched 507 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,959 Speaker 1: my words break his heart because he loved me so dearly. 508 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: He never raised a fist, he never raised a word, 509 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: and it crushed me. And though were those kinds of 510 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: things that pushed me to deal with it, one of 511 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: the most beautiful and horrific things was Kim's fury. She 512 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: was so angry. And I said to her, after the 513 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: first four hours, when I when I mean, she caught me, 514 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: she caught the stuff that was going on and called me. 515 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: I can tell you right where I was the moment 516 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: I was, and who I was with, which was not her. 517 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: It was a friend of mine named Steve. And she 518 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: called me and just said, I'm waiting for your at 519 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: the office, and I know that's it. 520 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 2: She called you and said, Paul, I'm waiting for you 521 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 2: at your office, and I know correct. 522 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: And I don't know how I made it from where 523 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: I was across town because because suicide was the last 524 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:44,959 Speaker 1: way to run away and had always been. Absolutely, I 525 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: mean at that point, absolutely, and I don't know how 526 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 1: I'm made it acrosstown. And I walk in and she's 527 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: taken my office apart, and she rips into me for 528 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: four hours and shame will not allow you to look 529 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: into the face of someone because it's too dangerous, and 530 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: I couldn't. And four hours later, when she took a breath, 531 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: I said to her, if we're going to do this, 532 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: I have to tell you every secret I have. 533 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 2: Did she know about yourself? 534 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: She didn't know. She kinda knew, but she didn't know anything. 535 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: She didn't know anything. And I said, because secrets have 536 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: been killing me my whole life. And she said, naively, 537 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: bring it on. And it took me four days to 538 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: tell her everything that had been a secret, and it 539 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: destroyed her. And she said, I will never believe another 540 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: word that comes out of your mouth the rest of 541 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: your life. 542 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 2: In the middle of this destruction that Kim is bearing, 543 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 2: which was an apoca lips for this woman, did the 544 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 2: four day confession in an odd way simultaneously liberate you? 545 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: Getting caught in an odd way liberated something, right, because 546 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: when you're caught. 547 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 2: Up finally, how old were you? 548 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: I was thirty eight? 549 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 2: Okay, so let's erase from six before, because in large 550 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 2: part you're being directed rather than acting on your own. 551 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 2: If you were thirty eight, that means there's thirty two years. 552 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: Of keeping secrets, of keeping sick and all the energy 553 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: that takes. And then you know, like they say. 554 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 2: I'm saying, yeah, yeah, thirty two years, yeah burden. Yeah. 555 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: Liars have to have good memories. 556 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know they would because you. 557 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: Have to keep track and that takes energyaneously. 558 00:33:55,280 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 4: Seeing this this alypse for your wife, but also this 559 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 4: this liberation for you in a way why which is 560 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 4: ironically and grotesquely. 561 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,240 Speaker 2: It was a sliver of holks so odd that something 562 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 2: that is so destructive to the person you love most 563 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 2: in the world is actually therapeutic to you. 564 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: Being a truth teller is therapeutic to you, even if 565 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: it's just a sliver. And it was like a relief. 566 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 1: It was like a relief, That's what I mean. In 567 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: my insanity of this, I thought Kim was going to die. 568 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: I thought this became the explosion of my emotional world 569 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: that had never happened. I thought Kim was going to die. 570 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 1: I bought wedding rings. I mean, I'm telling you it 571 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: was nuts as I look back on it, but it 572 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: was real to me in this and I had to 573 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 1: justify the choices I was making somehow, and it drove 574 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 1: me into this form of insanity. This had nothing to 575 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 1: do with love. I was projecting on this person what 576 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: I needed, right. It's like infatuation. Infatuations not based on 577 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: knowing someone. Real love is always based on knowing someone, 578 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: and love is simply the skin of knowing. But infatuation 579 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 1: is based on not knowing. It's based on projecting. You know, 580 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: the worst thing you can do when you're infatuated with 581 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: someone is to get to know them right, because suddenly 582 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 1: they're not going to meet your needs. 583 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 2: And the infatuation wears off it. 584 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 1: Not just wears off it. 585 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:49,399 Speaker 2: It ends. Yeah, it ends yep. So after she looks 586 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 2: at you and says, I'm never going to believe. In 587 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 2: other words, you say, you grab the yellow pages. 588 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm the one that starts telling what's going on. 589 00:35:58,719 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 2: I tell her. 590 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,840 Speaker 1: Dad are two oldest went through this with us. I 591 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: tell her family she and her five sisters are called 592 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:12,800 Speaker 1: the force for a reason. Yes, and may the Force 593 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:13,720 Speaker 1: be with you. 594 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, Marvel comics. 595 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 1: And it's true. But her family is huge, there's a 596 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 1: big safety net. She was the honored aunt by the nephews, 597 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: and they wanted to kill me because of the hurt, right, 598 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: and the consequences just went flooding out. We're not judged 599 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 1: for our sin, We're judged by our sin. And the 600 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 1: choices I made just flowed out. The family in whom 601 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: I had, the woman that I had committed adultery with. 602 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: Her family had eight children who loved us, loved us, 603 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 1: and all these years later I'm a friend of and 604 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:05,919 Speaker 1: those kids felt safe with us. And to this day 605 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 1: I'm only so far reconciled to two of them. You know, 606 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: these things don't just end. These things you have to 607 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:21,799 Speaker 1: keep working on a situation by situation, and you have 608 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,720 Speaker 1: to keep responding to it. You have to be become 609 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 1: a truth teller and keep being a truth teller. I 610 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,879 Speaker 1: had to tell her family, then I had to tell 611 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,280 Speaker 1: my family, and then I had to tell the community 612 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 1: that it was a. 613 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 2: Part of. 614 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 1: Secrets are snipers right, They will continue to shoot you 615 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: as long as they are part of your world. And 616 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: the best thing Kim's fury that drove me to say, 617 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: I've got to be done with secrets. I have no 618 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: secrets in my life now. They have no place in 619 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:08,359 Speaker 1: my life now. And so the Yellow Pages. I ended 620 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: up with Scott Mitchell, who became my therapist and eventually 621 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,800 Speaker 1: my friend and I sit across from Scott the first 622 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: day and I tell them what's going on, and I say, 623 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 1: the first time in my life to a human being, 624 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: can you help me? And he says, yup, I can, 625 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 1: but it's going to take a. 626 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 2: Year and a half. 627 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 1: And I said, I'm in and he laughed. He said, Paul, 628 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: everybody that sits where you are, they all you know, 629 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 1: they all say they're in, But after a couple months 630 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: they will start to feel better about themselves and they'll 631 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: start to be more powerful about themselves, and they're going 632 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 1: to start to thinking that they're smarter than me, and 633 00:38:54,719 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 1: they'll bail out right before the really hard stuff. And 634 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: I said, I'm not leaving until you tell me I'm done. 635 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 1: He said, Okay, let's work. 636 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 2: And that concludes part one of my conversation with Paul Young, 637 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 2: and you do not want to miss part two that's 638 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 2: now available. We're going to dive deep into that healing 639 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,319 Speaker 2: journey and what it looked like and what came out 640 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 2: of it. But if for some strange reason you don't, 641 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 2: make sure to join the Army of Normal Folks at 642 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,720 Speaker 2: normalfolks dot us and sign up to become a member 643 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 2: of the movement. By signing up, you'll receive a weekly 644 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 2: email and short episode summaries in case you happen to 645 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 2: miss an episode or if you've perd reading about our 646 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 2: incredible guests. Together, guys, we can change the country, and 647 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 2: it starts with you.