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Speaker 1: That's get sold dot Com promo code toodcast for thirty

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Speaker 1: percent off. Hello, They're happy Monday, Happy Thanksgiving week. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to another episode of the Chuck Podcast. Look, it is

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Speaker 1: a holiday week, but this feed is not going to

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Speaker 1: be light this week. It's just going to be our

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Speaker 1: normal feed. Monday, We're probably going to do Monday, Wednesday,

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Speaker 1: Friday in dropping stuff. Not going to bother to drop

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Speaker 1: something on Thursday morning. Assuming you will need more time

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Speaker 1: to you can catch up on the Monday and Wednesday

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Speaker 1: drops right on that front. But look, we've got a

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Speaker 1: lot of intro I've got some fun different types of

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Speaker 1: interviews that I've done over the last couple of weeks

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Speaker 1: that are you know, I always say, kind of culture adjacent,

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Speaker 1: less than new adjacent might be with the way. Including

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Speaker 1: my guest today, right Thompson easily one of my favorite

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Speaker 1: sports writers to read well. He's just one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite people to read. It doesn't matter whether he's writing

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Speaker 1: about sports or his book The Barn, which is a

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Speaker 1: very what I would call a very personal He inserts

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Speaker 1: himself in the narrative because he grew up twenty three

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Speaker 1: miles from this place, as he will tell you in

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Speaker 1: the interview. The Barn is about where Emmett Till was

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Speaker 1: killed in Mississippi. And what I just really enjoyed about

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Speaker 1: Writ's book is that he really sort of brings you,

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Speaker 1: brings the Till family, brings the region to life, brings

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Speaker 1: the Delta to life in ways that no matter how

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Speaker 1: much of the Till story you think you know, you

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Speaker 1: don't know the whole story. You don't know life in

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Speaker 1: the Delta. You don't know life in that part of

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Speaker 1: Mississippi today and back when Emmettil was killed. It's just a,

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Speaker 1: like I said's where Right Thompson grew up. So it's

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Speaker 1: very personal and it reads personally, but it is just

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Speaker 1: a terrific book. And I think the interview, I'm, like

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Speaker 1: I said, I'm kind of a fanboy of Right Thompson

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Speaker 1: as a as a sports reader. If you will, I

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Speaker 1: think I think it easily. When I think of some

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Speaker 1: of the great sports writing of all time. Some of

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Speaker 1: the pieces that jump out and you'll hear him and

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Speaker 1: I talk about it include Richard ben Kramer, among others.

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Speaker 1: Obviously you have Frank the Ford, just some terrific long

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Speaker 1: form writers. Where we don't get long form the way

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Speaker 1: we used to anymore. You know it just Sports illustrated

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Speaker 1: isn't Sports isn't the sports illustrated. I grew up with

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Speaker 1: Esquire and GQ, where a lot of these and even

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Speaker 1: Rolling Stone where you'd get some of these interesting long

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Speaker 1: form sports right, sort of interesting profiles of major sports

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Speaker 1: face tears. It's just there's just not the same homes

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Speaker 1: that we were so used to getting, but instead we

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Speaker 1: get it orally Right, you get it in the podcast,

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Speaker 1: or you get it in a great book. This is

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Speaker 1: a great book. And i'd like to think that Right

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Speaker 1: and I had a pretty pretty good conversation. And if

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Speaker 1: you dig this podcast and you sort of like where

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Speaker 1: I sort of take things both with news and culture

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Speaker 1: and where what spots I like to pick, I do

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Speaker 1: think you'll trust me on this one. I think you'll

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Speaker 1: enjoy this conversation with Right. Just so there's that. I

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Speaker 1: also have my one week to go before Doomsday for

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Speaker 1: the ACC and Miami and the College Football Playoff Committee.

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Speaker 1: I will get into the week that was in college football,

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Speaker 1: and of course we have a tremendous, amazing final regular

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Speaker 1: season week that is coming up, especially if you were

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Speaker 1: fans of the Big Twelve and the ACC since we

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Speaker 1: don't quite know who's going to playing in those championship games.

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Speaker 1: And then of course I'll have some I have the

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Speaker 1: toodcast time machine and a few a few of your

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Speaker 1: and I'll answer a few of your emails. I'll just

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Speaker 1: say the time machine. It's just very you. Obviously, you

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Speaker 1: know what I do. I'm always in the week that

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Speaker 1: we are in, so as you might imagine, Thanksgiving plays

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Speaker 1: a role in my toodcast time Machine segment this week.

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Speaker 1: Other than that little hint, I will make you wait

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Speaker 1: until after the Right Thompson interview to find all that out.

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Speaker 1: But before we get started, obviously, there's been a couple

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Speaker 1: of major pieces of news since I last checked in,

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Speaker 1: the biggest being the resignation from Congress of Marjorie Taylor

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Speaker 1: Green after a very high profile split with President Trump.

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Speaker 1: Almost a clearly this was her response to whatever threats

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Speaker 1: Trump made to her politically about primary challengers and all

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Speaker 1: of that, and she made the decision that I'm out,

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Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people are making a

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Speaker 1: lot of assumptions in different ways. She's already responded to

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Speaker 1: one of the rumors that she's pulling back now because

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Speaker 1: she's thinking about running for president. She tried to shut

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Speaker 1: that down as best as she could on that. And

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Speaker 1: then of course there's those that have jumped on the ah, Look,

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Speaker 1: she's resigning just in time to get her pension. Yes

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Speaker 1: that is a fact. Yes that is true. But do

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Speaker 1: look at the numbers. This is the minimum amount that

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Speaker 1: she'll get, because five years is when it is the

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Speaker 1: minimum time served before you're eligible for a pension, for

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Speaker 1: a congressional pension. Certainly, because there's so few pensions in

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Speaker 1: the private sector these days, any pension sounds like a

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Speaker 1: good thing. But this isn't like she's going to be

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Speaker 1: collecting the max of her congressional salary or anything like

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Speaker 1: that when you hit the minimum. So certainly, yes, she

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Speaker 1: did make sure she add he resignation to make sure

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Speaker 1: she made it to that five year anniversary. It is

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Speaker 1: given the amount of money she's likely to make, giving

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Speaker 1: speeches and some other things to say she did this

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Speaker 1: just for her pension. I think it's reach and it's

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Speaker 1: looking for a story. So it's certainly I don't see

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Speaker 1: a lot of evidence that says that. Only if you

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Speaker 1: really want to make that an issue, if you want to.

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Speaker 1: It's one of those if you want to, if you

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Speaker 1: want to squit really hard and think you're you've you've

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Speaker 1: got a gotcha here, you can go for it. This

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Speaker 1: one doesn't feel like it passes that smell test to me.

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Speaker 1: What this is about is what I've been chronicling, and

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Speaker 1: I think, arguably not to pull a muscle trying to

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Speaker 1: pat my own self on the back, but I believe

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Speaker 1: I've been telling you that this crack up is coming.

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Speaker 1: I wrote about it about a month ago. You could

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Speaker 1: start to see all the signs and there were just

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Speaker 1: various trigger points, whether it was Epstein, whether it was

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Speaker 1: the tariffs, whether it was souring economy. Then we got

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Speaker 1: I know, wrote all this before what happened in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five for the election. So this is obviously something

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Speaker 1: that if you've been a listener to this podcast I've been,

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Speaker 1: you're sort of been on top of and we're watching it,

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Speaker 1: and I said, you know, you were going to see it.

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Speaker 1: In some cases it would be big deals, in some

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Speaker 1: cases they would be small cracks. And just in the

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Speaker 1: last if you look at the last seventy two hours

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Speaker 1: or ninety six hours you've had her resignation, you've got

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Speaker 1: a huge divide inside the Republican Party over this Ukraine

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Speaker 1: peace deal that the President is trying to shove down

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Speaker 1: Ukraine's throat. It is not a good deal, nowhere close

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Speaker 1: to being a good deal, and it does feel it.

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Speaker 1: And there's some confusion driven by a Republican senator named

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Speaker 1: Mike Grounds who said Rubio told him this was a

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Speaker 1: Russian author document and then but you really have to

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Speaker 1: parse the words there, and I'm going to get into that,

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Speaker 1: but I'm going to start with Marjorie Taylor Green because

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Speaker 1: I do think that the she fits the definition of

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Speaker 1: true believer, and she is a I think in America. First,

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Speaker 1: I think going back, you know we've talked about I've

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Speaker 1: spent some time talking about the history of the Republican

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Speaker 1: Party on this podcast, and how you know we've they're

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Speaker 1: actually are ebbs and flows to the party. If you

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Speaker 1: look at it over the last one hundred years. Right

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Speaker 1: one hundred years ago, this party was very isolationist. This

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Speaker 1: is in the nineteen twenties. It was pro tariff at

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Speaker 1: the time, it was considered about protecting American industry. It's

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Speaker 1: what the business community actually was pro tariff. So and

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Speaker 1: they were in bed with that administration, the Harding administration

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Speaker 1: and then later became the Coolidge administration. So you had

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Speaker 1: sort of that similarity there was. This was a party

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Speaker 1: that was for immigration quotas. You know, we don't call

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Speaker 1: them quotas now, but you're seeing you know, whether it's

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Speaker 1: Trump pulling the temporary protected status, whether it's for Venezuelans

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Speaker 1: or somalis that he just triggered over the weekend. So

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Speaker 1: the fact is this, there is this wing of the

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Speaker 1: party that Trump essentially is trying resurrect it. Right, Trump

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Speaker 1: himself isn't as America first, or is his isolationists or

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Speaker 1: is his maga as the rest of his coalition actually is.

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Speaker 1: And you can take a look at somebody like Marjorie

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Speaker 1: Tayl Green, who I think in some ways is more

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Speaker 1: maga than Trump, and certainly more you know, when if

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Speaker 1: I go back in history more of the it was.

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Speaker 1: You know, in nineteen fifty two, it was considered the

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Speaker 1: Taft Eisenhower split inside the party. Right, he had the

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Speaker 1: Eisenhower wing, which became the predominant wing of the Republican

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Speaker 1: Party for basically about seventy years, essentially from Eisenhower to Romney.

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Speaker 1: And you had the taft Republicans who were the remnants

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Speaker 1: in fifty two of the protectionists of the twenties and thirties,

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Speaker 1: of the isolationist movement of the twenties and thirties. And

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Speaker 1: this is what Pat Buchanan brought back in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: two and what Donald Trump basically cobbled together. Right, don't

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Speaker 1: I think we all know this about Trump. Trump's no

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Speaker 1: political scientists, He's no political theorist. He just sort of

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Speaker 1: is a a gut politician. He found a constituency, he

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Speaker 1: found a way to differentiate himself within the Republican Party

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Speaker 1: that actually stumbled into a coherent ideology of sorts. And

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Speaker 1: this is what it is. It's why. But when I

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Speaker 1: say stumble, I use that word for a reason because

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Speaker 1: this is why he's had real a ton of trouble governing.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: He's he's really not successfully governed at all, not in

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Speaker 1: his first term, not in his second term. Right, that

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Speaker 1: tax cut was more of the of the Republican Party

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Speaker 1: that is not represented by Marjorie Taylor Green back in

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Speaker 1: the first term. All of what he's his adventures, right,

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Speaker 1: what he's doing in Venezuela, that's a that's a that's

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Speaker 1: an eye that is absolutely more of an Eisenhower wing

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Speaker 1: of the party type of move. What he's been doing

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Speaker 1: in the Middle East. So it is this is not

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Speaker 1: a presidency that has actually been governing by the ideological

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Speaker 1: coalition he built. And I think in many ways, even

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Speaker 1: though Epstein is clearly the breaking point here between Marjorie

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Speaker 1: Taylor Green and Trump, when you start to look at

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Speaker 1: what she's and this is what I want to spend

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Speaker 1: a few minutes doing. I want to read her entire statement.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to read the whole thing, but I

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Speaker 1: want to read certain parts of this statement because I

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Speaker 1: do think if she does want to run for president

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Speaker 1: representing this wing of the party, she may be more

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Speaker 1: of a you know, she is going to be this

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Speaker 1: She could be the stalking horse for the Bannon, for

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Speaker 1: Steve Bann. Right, there's always been some jokes that Steve

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Speaker 1: Bannon himself may run. Steve Bannon will. The things he

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Speaker 1: espouses and what MTG espouses are very very similar, right,

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Speaker 1: Bannon is not going to be a vanced guy. Bannon,

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Speaker 1: I think, is going to be the guy that does

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Speaker 1: everything he can to stop Vance, at least in the primaries, right.

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Speaker 1: And he certainly isn't going to be a Rubio guy.

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Speaker 1: He is absolutely going to want to stop Peter Tiel though,

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Speaker 1: and the entire big tech community, at least the Steve

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Speaker 1: Bannon that I've dealt with over the years, and that

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Speaker 1: I've been dealing with a bit this year. I think

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Speaker 1: in this sense, this is where there is a Venn

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Speaker 1: diagram here, and if she is running for president, I

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Speaker 1: think we got a hint at what her messaging might

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Speaker 1: look like. So look, let me start with her opening

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Speaker 1: statement here. I've always represented the common American man and

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Speaker 1: woman as a member of the House of Representatives, which

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Speaker 1: is why I've always been despised in Washington, DC and

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Speaker 1: never fit in. Americans are used by our Americans are

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Speaker 1: used by the political industrial complex of both political parties

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Speaker 1: election cycle after election cycle, in order to elect whichever

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Speaker 1: side can convince Americans to hate the other side more

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Speaker 1: and the insults are always the same. Think about that

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Speaker 1: statement there a minute, right, This is why I want

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Speaker 1: to annotate this statement a bit. Political industrial complex is

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Speaker 1: a fascinating phrase. She's not wrong, right, some people use uniparty.

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Speaker 1: I think that there is a certainly the way K

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Speaker 1: Street works, Certainly how the big tech community has worked,

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Speaker 1: how the crypto world has worked. They have basically bought

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Speaker 1: off pieces of both parties. That is when I political

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Speaker 1: industrial complex. That's what first place I go, Yes, the

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Speaker 1: way your major industries buy off pieces of both parties

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Speaker 1: because the whole goal, which is frankly smart as far

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Speaker 1: as business is concerned, but very I think demoralizing if

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Speaker 1: you're a true believer in either party, right on where

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Speaker 1: you are, depending on where you are in some of

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Speaker 1: these issues is how easily you do have And it

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Speaker 1: almost always is. Every time you see somebody be in

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Speaker 1: the minority in their party but be supportive of some issue.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's a trade issue, maybe it's a terrif issue,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's a new helping a new sector. It's always

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Speaker 1: followed by and they've just had a shit ton of

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Speaker 1: money raised for them in a superpack or a ton

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Speaker 1: of money raised for them here, or their former chief

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Speaker 1: of staff is now working for this lobbying firm. Right

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Speaker 1: it is. So the point is is that she's identified

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Speaker 1: a correct issue that I've been talking about before, and

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Speaker 1: that is there is truth to what is the political

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Speaker 1: industrial complex. Just like the right likes to think there's

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Speaker 1: a media industrial complex, some of us have broken free

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Speaker 1: and don't buy that as much, but there certainly is one,

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Speaker 1: and there's now one developing in some ways. That's the

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Speaker 1: Ellisons and the Murdochs. I would argue that they're what's

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Speaker 1: been created on the right. That is something that has

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Speaker 1: concentrated power among two families who have a political agenda

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Speaker 1: that are going to own something like seventy to eighty

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Speaker 1: You throw in this next Artegna business, and this wing

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Speaker 1: of the party is going to control seventy or eighty

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Speaker 1: percent of sort of legacy media over the next couple

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Speaker 1: of years. I think that in itself is also going

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Speaker 1: to make people a bit upset. Let me keep going

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Speaker 1: here and note the various things she says. So then

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Speaker 1: she adds, no matter which way the political pendulum swings,

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Speaker 1: Republican or Democrat, nothing ever gets better for the common

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Speaker 1: American man or woman. The debt goes higher, corporate and global,

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Speaker 1: and just remained Washington sweethearts. Well, let me put a

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Speaker 1: pause in there. We've been voting against. Right, She's not

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Speaker 1: wrong about this in her what she's identified now. I'm

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Speaker 1: not raising her up as some political hero. I think

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Speaker 1: her rhetoric, I think her conspiracy theories have made her

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Speaker 1: a sort of a very questionable player at times in

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Speaker 1: the political space. I think she got, if I'm going

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Speaker 1: to take this statement at face value, then early on

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Speaker 1: she got caught up in the wrong part of politics,

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Speaker 1: thinking the theater was the point. Hopefully, maybe she's really

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Speaker 1: gotten religion here and realized this theater is actually a distraction,

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Speaker 1: and theater is how you avoid accountability. But the fact is,

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Speaker 1: why do we had voters that are going back and forth?

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Speaker 1: We have been literally like a windshield wiper of the

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Speaker 1: political electorate going back to twenty twenty oh six. Right,

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Speaker 1: you know, we had a pretty stable election in twenty

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Speaker 1: oh four, thing got reelected. Right, then at twenty oh six,

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Speaker 1: both the House and Senate flip twenty oh eight, the

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Speaker 1: White House flips twenty ten, the House flips twenty twelve,

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Speaker 1: our last non flipping election, okay, where status quo is reelected.

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Speaker 1: Twenty fourteen, The Senate flips, twenty sixteen, the White House flips.

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Speaker 1: Twenty eighteen, the House flips. Twenty twenty, the White House

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Speaker 1: flips twenty twenty two, The House flips twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: The White House flips. Oh, and the Senate flips too. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: the White House and the Senate and twenty twenty six

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Speaker 1: he looks like the House is going to flip. And

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Speaker 1: if it is, if current trends hold, the Senate's going

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Speaker 1: to flip too. I am getting more bullish on the

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Speaker 1: Senate for the Democrats simply because of how poorly Trump

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Speaker 1: is managing his current coalition one two, how poorly he's

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Speaker 1: managing this economy, and frankly, because this economy is not good.

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Speaker 1: So she is right the way I think working class

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Speaker 1: swing voters feel. They keep voting against, they're not voting for.

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Speaker 1: They know what they don't want, and they keep expressing

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Speaker 1: those views. Then she gets into the issue that I

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Speaker 1: think is going to become a very salient issue in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty eight.

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Speaker 2: Jobs.

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Speaker 1: She goes this, American jobs continue to be replaced, whether

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Speaker 1: it's by illegal labor, legal labor, by visas, or just

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Speaker 1: shipped overseas. Small businesses continue to be swallowed by big corporations.

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Speaker 1: I could easily see her adding an issue of big

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Speaker 1: tech and AI and that job displacement as well. Job displacement.

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Speaker 1: Fear of job displacement is going to be singularly the

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Speaker 1: most I think, a very important issue in twenty eight,

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Speaker 1: and likely you'll start to see a lot of it

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Speaker 1: in twenty six. There's a reason results matter more than promises,

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Speaker 1: just like there's a reason Morgan and Morgan is America's

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Speaker 1: largest injury law firm. For the last thirty five years,

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Speaker 1: they've recovered twenty five billion dollars for more than half

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Speaker 1: a million clients. It includes cases where insurance companies offered

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Speaker 1: next to nothing, just hoping to get away with paying

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Speaker 1: as a little as possible. Morgan and Morgan fought back

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Speaker 1: ended up winning millions. In fact, in Pennsylvania, one client

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Speaker 1: was awarded twenty six million dollars, which was a staggering

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Speaker 1: forty times the amount that the insurance company originally offered.

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Speaker 1: That original offer six hundred and fifty thousand dollars twenty

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Speaker 1: six million, six hundred and fifty thousand dollars. So with

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Speaker 1: more than one thousand lawyers across the country, they know

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Speaker 1: how to deliver for everyday people. If you're injured, you

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Speaker 1: need a lawyer. You need somebody to get your back.

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Speaker 1: Check out for the People dot com, Slash podcast, or

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Speaker 1: dial pound law pound five two nine law on your

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Speaker 1: cell phone. And remember all law firms are not the same.

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Speaker 1: So check out Morgan and Morgan. Their fee is free

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Speaker 1: unless they win. Then she goes right into our America

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Speaker 1: First focus. Here, America's harder and tax dollars always fund foreignwards,

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Speaker 1: foreign eight, and foreign interest. The spending power of the

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Speaker 1: dollar continues to decline, the average American family to no

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Speaker 1: longer survive on a single breadwinners income, as both parents

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Speaker 1: must work in order to simply survive. So this is

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Speaker 1: where I look at a sentence like this and say,

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Speaker 1: she's a shunned true believer. She really believed in this

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Speaker 1: conservative America First movement. She believed in this idea. Hey,

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Speaker 1: we're doing too much overseas. We need to focus at home.

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Speaker 1: You need to focus at home so you can give

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Speaker 1: people the opportunity to raise a family with only a

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Speaker 1: single income. Right this is culturally where many on the

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Speaker 1: right would also like to be as well. So this

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Speaker 1: is where i read this statement, and this was the

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Speaker 1: first time I'm like, she's a spurned She basically she

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Speaker 1: believed the talking points, she believed the bullshit that Trump

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Speaker 1: has been saying, and she's really and it's like, I think,

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Speaker 1: in some ways it's possible her anger and reaction is

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Speaker 1: she's mad at herself for buying into it, mad at

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Speaker 1: herself for buying into Trump and realizing because I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, I mean, I think this is

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Speaker 1: the big danger here, especially when you're in your tenth

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Speaker 1: year as sort of leading the creating the political weather

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Speaker 1: that Trump's been doing. In general, his Jedi mind tricks

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Speaker 1: don't have the same impact anymore.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of like, or to put it in football terms,

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Speaker 1: you know, he's still running the same offense that works

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Speaker 1: seven years ago, and he's not making enough adjustments, and

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Speaker 1: everybody else has made adjustments, and he still hasn't made

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Speaker 1: any adjustments. Trump still tries the same stick, still tries

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Speaker 1: the you know, fake news media's lying business, still tries

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Speaker 1: the intimidation tactics still, and it's just right, you do

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Speaker 1: something over and over again, and you realize that, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe he doesn't have and you know, look at his

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Speaker 1: track record in Georgia. Whenever he's targeted a Georgia Republican,

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Speaker 1: that Georgia Republican hasn't just survived. In some ways, they've thrived. Right,

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Speaker 1: Brian Kemp is a frankly I think he's somebody that

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Speaker 1: is not the most charismatically, not the most charismatic guy.

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Speaker 1: I don't immediately see presidential candidate in his future, but

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Speaker 1: in some ways the ability to beat Trump back has

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Speaker 1: made him more interesting to a lot of donors who

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Speaker 1: don't like who who would like a small government conservative

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Speaker 1: maybe maybe even somebody that that is a bit I

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Speaker 1: think Kemp really is a little bit more of the

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Speaker 1: Paul Ryan Ron DeSantis side of conservatism, less Trump's side,

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Speaker 1: less populist and all of that. But his ability to

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Speaker 1: withstand threats from Trump and beat Trump, I mean, have

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Speaker 1: made him made him a stronger political figure, has given

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Speaker 1: his political machine a lot a lot more haft in

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Speaker 1: the state of Georgia. Just in general. Right, Trump has

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Speaker 1: not been able to successfully work his will in punishing

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Speaker 1: any Republicans that have gone sideways with him, and I

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Speaker 1: think in who's had a front row seat to this,

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Speaker 1: Marjorie Taylor Green. So let me read this next two statements.

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Speaker 1: Here I ran for We're going back to Margie tillergrad.

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Speaker 1: I ran for Congress in twenty twenty, and I fought

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Speaker 1: every single day believing that make America great again meant

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Speaker 1: America First. Going back to my belief here that the

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Speaker 1: whole point that she is a quote unquote true believer

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Speaker 1: and essentially a shunned You know that she feels that

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Speaker 1: she feels essentially let down. Right, let me continue. I

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Speaker 1: have one of the most conservative voting records in Congress,

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Speaker 1: defending the First Amendment, second Amendment onworn babies because I

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Speaker 1: believe God creates life at conception, strong safe borders. I

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Speaker 1: fought against COVID tyrannical insanity and mandated mask vaccines. And

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Speaker 1: I have never voted to fund foreign wars. And then

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Speaker 1: she keeps going. However, with almost one year into our majority,

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Speaker 1: the legislature has been mostly sidelined. We endured an eight

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Speaker 1: week shutdown, wrongly resulting in the House not working for

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Speaker 1: the entire time, and we are entering campaign season, which

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Speaker 1: means all courage leaves and only safe campaign reelection mode

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Speaker 1: is turned on. I have to tie. Yet, whatever you

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Speaker 1: think of her, she's got Congress figured out. She understands

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Speaker 1: how Congress works, and she's not wrong about what the

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Speaker 1: next year is going to be, which is avoid any

430
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: tough votes. During the longest shutdown in our nation's history,

431
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 1: I raged against my own speaker and my own party

432
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: for refusing to proactively work diligently to pass a plan

433
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: to save American health care and protect Americans from outrageous,

434
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 1: over priced, unaffordable health insurance policies. The House should have

435
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: been in session working every day to fix this disaster,

436
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 1: but instead America was force fed discussing political drama once

437
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 1: again from both sides of the aisle. She is absolutely

438
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: wanting to send the message that I'm the true believer.

439
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 1: I'm real America first. All of these others are a

440
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: bunch of pretenders and in many ways, including the President

441
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 1: of the United States. I think this is interesting. Many

442
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 1: common Americans are no longer easily convinced by paid political

443
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: propag and to spokespersons and consultants on TV and paid

444
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 1: shills on social media, obediently serving with cult like conviction

445
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 1: to force others to swallow the political party talking points.

446
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: If there is a machine, it is more on the

447
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 1: right these days when it comes to propaganda and sort

448
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: of how Trump runs that social media machine, right, and

449
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: everybody's supposed to get in line. Somebody doesn't like getting

450
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 1: in line on this one. Let me keep going here.

451
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: Here's a good one. I have fought harder than almost

452
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: any other elected Republican to elect Donald Trump and Republicans

453
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,479
Speaker 1: to power. She argues, traveling the country for years, spending

454
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: millions of my own money, missing precious time with my

455
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: family that I can never get back, and showing up

456
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 1: in places like outside the New York Courthouse and collect

457
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 1: Pond Park against a raging leftist mob as Trump faced

458
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: democrat law fair. Meanwhile, most of the establishment Republicans who

459
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: secretly hate him, who stabbed him in the back and

460
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: never defended him against anything, have all been welcomed in

461
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:07,439
Speaker 1: after the election. Interesting way that she words that, and

462
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: I understood. You know, she looks at a Marco Rubio

463
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: and thinks that's what I was fighting against, right, she

464
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 1: looks at some of these folks, That's what I was

465
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 1: fighting against. A Scott Besson. You know, the folks that

466
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: have been they're not maga people, but they're there in

467
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 1: some ways, you know, to reassure the business community. Well,

468
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: she's somebody that's clearly was trying to wanted to see

469
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,360
Speaker 1: this blow up the system. And of course, Trump, while

470
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: he's blown up norms, he's certainly blown up the system

471
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 1: within the Republican Party, and he's certainly turned the Republican

472
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: Party into a kleptocracy, he has not actually blown up

473
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: the system in the way that he promised some of

474
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: his true believers. And again I go back, this is

475
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: a statement of somebody who's a true believer. In fact,

476
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 1: let me read these next two statements and you will

477
00:26:53,960 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: see where how why she feels so personally just personally

478
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 1: aggrieved by what the president did to her. And I

479
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: will never forget the day I had to leave my

480
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 1: mother's side as my father had brain surgery to remove

481
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 1: cancer's tumors, in order to fly to Washington, DC to

482
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 1: defend President Trump and vote no against the Democrat's second

483
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 1: impeachment in twenty twenty one. My poor father, my poor mother.

484
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 1: It was way too much. Through it all, I never

485
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 1: changed or went back on my campaign promises and only

486
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: disagreed in a few areas, like my stance against H

487
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 1: one b's replacing American jobs, AI state moratoriums, debt for life,

488
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: fifty year mortgage scams, standing strongly against all involvement in

489
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: foreign wars, and demanding the release of the Epstein files.

490
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: Other than that, my voting record has been solidly with

491
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: my party and the president. She's making a She is

492
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: correct on this. Yes, she is split with him on

493
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: a few things, but in many ways she's split with

494
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 1: her because she's a true believer and President Trump is not.

495
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: He doesn't believe his own ideology of which he pitches

496
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,120
Speaker 1: and of which he convinces a person like Marjorie Taylor

497
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: Green to be. Again, I am not sitting here trying

498
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 1: to lionize her. I'm just trying to explain I don't

499
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: like her anti Semitic thoughts. I don't like some of

500
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 1: this conspiratorial mindset when going down QAnon, the you know,

501
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,880
Speaker 1: she sort of you know, created a lot of the

502
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 1: you know, sort of participated in this hate mongering that

503
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: took place, the demonizing of the unfair demonizing of some

504
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 1: members of the press. So I'm not going to sit

505
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: here and and but I do want to explain this split,

506
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: because she does, I really believe speaks for those that

507
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: actually thought Trump believed this stuff. But is in all

508
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: those of us that have covered Trump for thirty years

509
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: and knew he's a bullshitter. He's always been a bullshitter,

510
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: and once again he's being exposed as who he is.

511
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: He is always bullshitting you, always, He is always, always bullshitting.

512
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: Rarely does he tell the truth, and now more of

513
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: his people are starting to figure this out. Then, she continues,

514
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: loyalty should be a two way street, and we should

515
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: be able to vote our conscience and represent our district's

516
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: interests because our job title is literally representative. America first

517
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: should mean America first and only Americans first, with no

518
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: other foreign country ever being attached to America first in

519
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: our halls of government. Standing up for American women who

520
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: were raped at fourteen, trafficked and used by rich, powerful

521
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: men should not result in me being called a traitor

522
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: and threatened by the President of the United States, whom

523
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: I fought for. However, while yes hurtful, my heart remains

524
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: filled with joy, and my life is filled with happiness,

525
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: and my true convictions remain unchanged because my self worth

526
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: is not defined by a man, but is said by God,

527
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: who created everything in existence. So then she explains why

528
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: she decided not to do it, not to face off

529
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: with a Trump funded Republican primary opponent. My only goal

530
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: and desire has been has ever been to hold the

531
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: Republican Party accountable for the promises it makes to the

532
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: American people and put America first. And I have fought

533
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: against Democrats damaging policies like the Green New Deal, or

534
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: why I'd open deadly unsafe border policies and the Transagenda

535
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: on children and against women. With that has come years

536
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 1: of NonStop, never ending personal attacks, death threats, law fair,

537
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: ridiculous slander and lies about me that most people could

538
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: never withstand even for a day. It has been unfair

539
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: and wrong, not only to me and especially my family,

540
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: but to my district as well. I have too much

541
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: self respect and dignity, loved my family way too much,

542
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: and do not want my sweet district to have to

543
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: endure a hurtful and hateful primary against me by the

544
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: president we all fought for only to fight and win

545
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: my election. While Republicans will likely lose the midterms and

546
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: in turn be expected to defend the president against impeachment

547
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: after he hatefully dumped tens of millions of dollars against

548
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: me and tried to destroy me. So this is now

549
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: at the heart of why she resigned. She's sitting and

550
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: she's not wrong on this. Right, he is desperate to

551
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: prove that he has political power, and right now it's

552
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: not clear that Trump has the power he thinks he has.

553
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: Thomas Massey looks like he's going to win reelection. He's

554
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: afraid of putting his finger on the scale for anybody

555
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: in Texas for fear of picking the wrong guy, which

556
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: tells me he has no comfort level of whether he

557
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 1: has the ability to persuade the way he used to.

558
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: He was clearly a net negative to anybody that touched

559
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: him during during the twenty twenty five elections. And she's

560
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: right if she wins now, I don't think that democratic

561
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: leadership that is stupid enough to try another impeachment, and yes, stupid,

562
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: like why politicize this move on from Trump? Trump is

563
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: leaving the stage. It is clear his own party at

564
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: times wants him to leave the stage. Don't do something

565
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: that might actually galvanize the party against him. Right, it

566
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: was always the head scratcher of when Republicans, even after

567
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: they cut the impeachment effort in ninety eight, didn't was

568
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: essentially the voters told Republicans, don't do it, and essentially

569
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: gave a collective bird to the Republicans. They did it

570
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: out of bitterness, they did it anyway, and of course,

571
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: you know, politically, you know, pissed away whatever moral or

572
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: ethical high ground that they thought they were kidding.

573
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 2: But she is right.

574
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 1: She could win, be in the minority and then be

575
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: expected to defend the president and his policies, which in

576
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: some cases she might instinctively defend because she believes in

577
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: the policies. But she's thinking, I'm going to be there

578
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: a bulwark on your behalf after you've beaten the crap

579
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: out of me and launched your political goons and to

580
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: go after her. So it is understandable. I get why

581
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: she's walking because the upside again, there is no worse

582
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: job in elective politics than being in the minority in

583
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: the House of Representatives. The political wins are clearly blowing

584
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: against Donald Trump right now. And you know, again I

585
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: go back. This is why you know the phrase six

586
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: year itch, which I believe was coined by a longtime

587
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: political scientist named Kevin Phillips. I think he gets credit

588
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: for that phrase, which is sort of after you know,

589
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: in the sixth year, after parties had a lung it

590
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: really you know, you really see a hunger to flip.

591
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: And we generally see that, right, eight years of one

592
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: party in a governor's mansion usually means the out party

593
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: is slightly favored or was certainly going to overperform what

594
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: they normally do. And I think, you know, this is

595
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: no ordinary second term for Trump. This is the end

596
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: of a ten year run for him. You know, he

597
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: had that gap. In some ways, it's sort of like

598
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: he did get a third term. Even though he lost

599
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: in twenty he was still sort of the leading political

600
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: figure in America still for that period that Biden was president.

601
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: So this is now the essentially a mid term for

602
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: Trump's third term, right, you know, the FDR was wearing

603
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: his welcome out. He would struggling to hold his coalition together.

604
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: But for World War two, maybe he doesn't run. But

605
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: but for World War two he certainly doesn't. I don't

606
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: think wins that third term as easily. And you know,

607
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: third term wasn't wasn't I've probably read three or four

608
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: different books on the nineteen forty presidential election. I've always

609
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: been fascinated by that election, and I encourage you. I've

610
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 1: read him from different points of view, one you know,

611
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 1: from you know, from a more anti FDR view, one

612
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: from a more pro FDR view, but which I highly encourage.

613
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: By the way, when you when you read about historical figures,

614
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: try to find try to find, uh, you know, a

615
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: negative critic and a positive critic, you know, and and

616
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: and try to consume both. I know that is extra homework,

617
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: but you know, it is what it is. So I

618
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: think she's right about this. I think her explanation is

619
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: perfectly rational. And you know, there's many political reporters or

620
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 1: trying to at this the way we all do sometimes,

621
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: which is all right, what's her real angle here? Maybe

622
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: what is she really setting up? Maybe she's doing this.

623
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: I think if she had she really was was interested

624
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: in sort of more of a to be more of

625
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,399
Speaker 1: a political agitator, she'd jump in that center race. I'll

626
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: tell you this far, John Astuff, I'd be petrified if

627
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 1: she had jumped in the center race, because I think

628
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: she'd win this primary. I think this type of candidacy

629
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 1: could win a republic particularly a four way crowded Republican primary,

630
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: but it would turn it into some sort of weird

631
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: sort of anti It might create frenzy. But my point

632
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 1: is is that if she did harbor the ambition that

633
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: I think many are assuming she does, and I think

634
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: sometimes we all have to be careful sometimes of these

635
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: new figures that come in. You know, how many of

636
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,399
Speaker 1: them suddenly get into the club and think, oh, now

637
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: I want to be president of the club, versus how

638
00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 1: many even get in there because they actually really wanted

639
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: to do something. And she is expressed in this statement

640
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: that she's sort of turned off by Congress because she

641
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 1: hasn't because Congress on work. She's not the first person

642
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: to figure this out. And there's been quite a few

643
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: that that bail after five or six years, that that

644
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: you know, on their own, who could stick around but

645
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: don't see the value in another two years, especially if

646
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 1: you're going to be in the political minority. So anyway,

647
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: it's I'm fascinated by her statement. I would encourage you

648
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: to read the whole thing. I've obviously read quite a

649
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,439
Speaker 1: few clips of it, because I think this is yours.

650
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:44,760
Speaker 1: This fracturing is real. Humpty dumpty, and I guess Humpty

651
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: Trumpy I should call him right, is not going to

652
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: be able to get this put put this back together.

653
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 1: I think that we are. We're sort of because it's

654
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: in the late stages of this movement. For in the

655
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 1: early stages of this movement, maybe that would be another story.

656
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: We're in the late stages of this movement. We have

657
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: a week in the economy, and then you have a

658
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: president right now who is so he's clearly irritated by

659
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: his political standing getting so sour. So he doesn't ever

660
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 1: sit idly by, and in some ways he's making things worse,

661
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: and he could continue to do this. I thought it

662
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: was fascinating that he quickly said she just needed a

663
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 1: time out. She's going to be great when she comes back.

664
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: That's some acknowledgment that he knows she could be a

665
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: potent political force that on a movement for a movement

666
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 1: he helped create, but that he may lose control over.

667
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: And that's going to be something that I think it's

668
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: worth is Thomas Massey in some ways was Trump before

669
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: Trump in the same way, and he's going after Massy

670
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: in extraordinarily hard ways, and Massy in some ways is

671
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: a more pure American first, or more pure isolationist, and

672
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 1: he's also now very pro Israel. Neither's Marjorie Taylor Green.

673
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: And it's under for the same supposed reason. They're also

674
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 1: not in favor of sending any money over the Ukraine.

675
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 1: Right all sort of you could say, you could disagree

676
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: with it, but it is consistent with the ideologies she's preaching,

677
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: and I imagine that they're not going to be very

678
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 1: favorable towards Venezuela either. Before I go and sneak in

679
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 1: a break here and we get to this right Thompson

680
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 1: interview that I'm telling you, you're going to say to me,

681
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: get right Thompson on more often, and I'm going to say,

682
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: it's really hard to book them, but I agree with you.

683
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: But before we get to it, I do want a

684
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 1: quick little update on what we're seeing with this Ukraine

685
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: peace deal. There was a bit of a dust up

686
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 1: over the last forty eight hours where you had Republican

687
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: senators that are at the Halifox Security Conference. This is

688
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: a security conference always held in Halifax, Canada. It is

689
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 1: a you've heard of the Munich Security Conference. This is

690
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 1: essentially one that's about North America, and there's always bipartisan

691
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 1: groups of senators up there, and you have the sort

692
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 1: of the hawkish bipartisan Senate brigin Aid that's up there,

693
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: that's a little less America. First, Mike Grounds, he's been

694
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: he's been pretty anti Russia, pro Ukraine, sort of the

695
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: old Marco Rubio wing of the party, even though Rubio

696
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: is now in the Trump administration. It's interesting that Mike

697
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,280
Speaker 1: Grounds and Angus King both went public saying that Secretary

698
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: Rubio told them the Russians authored this peace plan, that

699
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: this was the Russian peace plan. Now, when Rubio said, well,

700
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,280
Speaker 1: that story is not true. This was a US author

701
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: document in I want to read this. Read these words

702
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 1: carefully here one more time, and the exact way that

703
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: he worded this, because I do believe, I do believe

704
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 1: he left he left open the possibility that what he told,

705
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: what he was what has been reported that he said

706
00:39:53,239 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: privately is indeed, both things can be true. So here's

707
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 1: what he said. He says, the peace proposal was authored

708
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: by the US. Let's parse that. Okay, the peace proposal,

709
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: all right, the actual piece of paper is that what

710
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: he's referring to so Steve Witkoff took dictation from the Russians.

711
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 1: That's possible. The Russians, this was their suggestions, and we

712
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 1: took all of their suggestions and put it on a

713
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 1: piece of paper. But the US authored it.

714
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 2: Right.

715
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 1: Then he says it has offered a strong framework for

716
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: ongoing negotiations. This is no final offer, right, This is

717
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: an offer, not a final offer. And then third, it

718
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: is based on input from the Russian side, but it

719
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 1: is also based on previous and ongoing input from Ukraine.

720
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: So this was Rubio's response to the feeding frenzy that

721
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 1: got started when Mike Rounds and Angus King both went

722
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: public saying, hey, this piece deal isn't true. So Rubio

723
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: kind of tries to say no, oh, no, no, But

724
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: he doesn't say Rounds is wrong, and he doesn't say

725
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:08,720
Speaker 1: against King was wrong, right, He just puts up it extraordinarily. Remember,

726
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 1: Marco Rubio did go to law school, went to the

727
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 1: Years of re Miami law school, went to went to

728
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 1: Gainesville for undergrad So he's one of these weirdos that

729
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 1: claims to be both a Gator fan and a Hurricane fan. Sorry,

730
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 1: Secretary Rubio, it is not allowed at the nursery of Miami.

731
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 1: There's no such thing. You can have a divided household

732
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: about Florida State, You're not allowed to have one about

733
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: the armpit of Florida. I love my Gator friends, as

734
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 1: you can tell. I only love them almost as much

735
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 1: as I love my Domer friends. But I'll get to

736
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 1: them in a minute. But the point of this is

737
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: so Rubio is clearly uncomfortable with what to me he

738
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: is signaling. Look, this isn't my deal. This is one

739
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: of these crazy ass wit cough deals who got essentially

740
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: once again, you know, taken in by the Russians, and

741
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: he just plays stenographer for whatever the Russians want. He's

742
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 1: done this multiple times, which is how he ended up

743
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: with that ridiculous summit where Trump got nothing out of

744
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,240
Speaker 1: it and it allowed Putin to sort of try to

745
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: reteach history. I should read another Rubio tweet from a

746
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 1: couple of days ago, when this peace deal was circulating

747
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 1: and he was trying to show that he was supportive

748
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: of the idea. If even if he wasn't supportive of

749
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 1: the deal, he writes this, ending a complex and deadly

750
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 1: war such as the one in Ukraine requires an extensive

751
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,720
Speaker 1: exchange of serious and realistic ideas, and achieving a durable

752
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: piece will require both sides to agree to difficult but

753
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: necessary concessions. That is why we are and will continue

754
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 1: to develop a list of potential ideas for ending this

755
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,720
Speaker 1: war based on input from both sides of this conflict. Again,

756
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 1: Rubio is very careful here. He is not trying to

757
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 1: go up against the President, but he's clearly trying to

758
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: rain him in on this. He is clearly wont trying

759
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 1: to make it clear this is a deal that the

760
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: US did not author It was actually the US may

761
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 1: have taken dictation from a Russian in order to put

762
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 1: this on paper, but that this was not necessarily based

763
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: on any contributions, certainly from the Secretary of State or

764
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: the National Security Advisor. A wait, it is the same person.

765
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 2: It is.

766
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: I do think the fact that it looks like, you know,

767
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 1: Trump put this Thanksgiving deadline on here, I think if

768
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: you're Zelensky, you realize you still have a majority of

769
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: Congress that supports you over what Trump is trying to

770
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 1: shove down your throat. I think he feels I think

771
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: he's managed this smartly, which is he's not in the

772
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: greatest position these days because of this corruption scandal that

773
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: he's been dealing with. But he knows it's better to

774
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: work with Trump than to try to work against him publicly.

775
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 1: He may work against them behind the scenes, but he

776
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: can't work against him publicly. But as you could see,

777
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: I think, I think we're we're going to see two

778
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: more weeks. We're going to get you know how, Donald

779
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,800
Speaker 1: Trump's got a habit of when he wants to punt something,

780
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: he's going to buy himself two more weeks, which could

781
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: mean two days or two months, but it doesn't. But

782
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 1: it never means it's two more weeks. But you could

783
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 1: see something going here. Finally, before we get to write Thompson,

784
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 1: I just want to flag something for you. I'm going

785
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: to talk more about it in my next episode. But

786
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 1: I did an interview with Mike Turner for Newsphere. Please

787
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 1: go check it out, I promise you. This is from

788
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,800
Speaker 1: my episode of Sunday Night with check to out on Newsphere.

789
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 1: Mike Turner, former House Intel Committee. We talk extensively about

790
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: this deal. Look, he is somebody that is he's a

791
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:35,760
Speaker 1: former mayor. He was a former mayor of Dayton, Ohio.

792
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: So we actually talk a little bit about sort of

793
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 1: how do we depolarize why are mayors less partisan figures

794
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: than any other political figure in America. We get into

795
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 1: that conversation a little bit, but I want to I

796
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: do want to highlight the interaction we have over Venezuela

797
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: and whether Congress has been informed or not, and what's

798
00:44:55,239 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: missing and whether whether there is whether the president, whether

799
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 1: what he's doing is legal. Look, if you read the transcript,

800
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: Mike Turner didn't say anything counter to the president. Sometimes

801
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:13,800
Speaker 1: you have to watch an interview. You got to absorb

802
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 1: an interview. You've got to see the pauses, the awkward pauses,

803
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:22,839
Speaker 1: You've got to hear the responses to certain follow ups

804
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 1: that I have to to try to understand where he's going.

805
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: Put it this way, it is painfully obvious to me

806
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 1: that this administration has not made the case to Congress

807
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 1: that what they're doing in Venezuela, off the coast, is legal,

808
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: that what is happening here is quite dangerous, that it

809
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 1: may be counterproductive. I'm not saying. I'm not putting words

810
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: in Mike Turner's mouth. I don't want that to come

811
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 1: across here. I want you to watch it on your

812
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: own I'm just telling you what I took away from it.

813
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 1: I can match that with my own reporting from different

814
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: members of Congress who have certainly said similar things to me.

815
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 1: And we've seen much in the public about this, but

816
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 1: he's done a but the president that has not made

817
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: the case to the American public at all. You saw

818
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 1: some CBS polling indicating just as much these extra judicial killings.

819
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,240
Speaker 1: To me, the great misstep in this is the risk

820
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 1: and this is what I'm really concerned about, the risk

821
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 1: of somehow galvanizing Venezuelan's behind Maduro and if this ridiculously

822
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,399
Speaker 1: laid out policy that has just not been well thought

823
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: out leads to that talk about counterproductive, setting us back

824
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 1: in this region fifty years. If we end up with

825
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 1: an outcome like that, which is certainly the way we

826
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: are operating, that is, that is not a zero percent

827
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: chance of a possibility, and it's not even in the

828
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 1: single digits. The way we're operating here could galvanize pieces

829
00:46:54,440 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: of the Latin American, of Latin America, of South American

830
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 1: countries against us in ways that we will regret, and frankly,

831
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 1: in ways that we have mismanaged the hemisphere pretty much

832
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: since this since arguably even before the Spanish American War.

833
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,240
Speaker 1: But we never get this region right. We always play

834
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: colonists in some sort or imperialist in some ways, and

835
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 1: every time we do it, it backfires. But I do

836
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: think you've got to understand Mike Turner is no softy,

837
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: he's no Trump hater. He may not ideologically align with

838
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: him on foreign policy, but you can just see the

839
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 1: lack of I mean, there's been total disregard for the

840
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: role of Congress in whatever the hell is happening down

841
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: on the coast, off the coast of Venezuela. But it's

842
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 1: pretty clear not a lot of people think what's happening

843
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 1: is legal, and this is something that Congress ought to

844
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: ought to be a bit more united on. There should

845
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: be a bipartisan anger about this, and unfortunately it has

846
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 1: only been a blip because we've got so many other

847
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: things that we have to do in our crazy political

848
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 1: theater of the day. All Right, that was a longer

849
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: intro than I planned, I will admit that, but we

850
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 1: did hit. Like I said, I think this Marjorie Taylor

851
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 1: Green thing is a big deal because I do think

852
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: we haven't heard the last of her she has put

853
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: herself in a position to be potentially the real heir

854
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 1: to the America First, non Trump aligned America First movement.

855
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: Different from what Tucker Carlson is doing. I think he's

856
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 1: kind of clown. He's a clown. He's not a serious guy,

857
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 1: and he gets exposed to being an unserious guy all

858
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:41,919
Speaker 1: the time. Weirdly enough, a person like Marjorie Taylor Green

859
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: has a lot more credibility to lead that movement than

860
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 1: the clown that is Tucker Carlson. And with that, let

861
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: me sneak at a break and when we come back,

862
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:56,320
Speaker 1: a terrific conversation with Right Thompson. This episode of the

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Speaker 1: it's excellent. Excellent bright Well joining me now is somebody

891
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 1: I've never met, but I'm big static to finally interview

892
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 1: them because I've been reading It's right, Thompson. Who if

893
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 1: these days, if there's a great profile of a sports

894
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 1: figure that you couldn't put down, I promise you the

895
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 1: byline was right Thompson. But right, it's good to meet you,

896
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 1: good to see it.

897
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 2: It's great to meet you, and it's a real treat

898
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 2: to be here, so thank you. Well.

899
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 1: Look, man, the treat's mine. And I book you because

900
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:05,399
Speaker 1: of a book that wasn't about sports. It's about where

901
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 1: you grew up. It's about one of the most wrenching

902
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 1: stories of civil rights in our history. And it's a

903
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 1: book called The Barn. And it's just everything that I

904
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,320
Speaker 1: love about your writing is showcased in this book because

905
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 1: it's both personal, factual relevant. Look, you tell me this

906
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 1: was clearly a work of love, meaning whether you had

907
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,360
Speaker 1: a publisher willing to do this or not, I'm guessing

908
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 1: you were going to write this book.

909
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:42,399
Speaker 2: You know, the barn Rymintil was killed was twenty three

910
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 2: miles from my family's farm, and I didn't you know

911
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,239
Speaker 2: the barn had been completely erased from history, and so

912
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 2: I really look, I don't know the right way to

913
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:53,800
Speaker 2: say this, but if you don't know something that essential

914
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 2: about the place that you claim to know best in

915
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 2: the world, then you're kind of not actually from anywhere.

916
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 2: And so it you know, it was important to me

917
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:07,720
Speaker 2: to understand how this came to happen in this place.

918
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 2: And you know, like one of the interesting things and

919
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:12,919
Speaker 2: I don't know if you've had this with your work,

920
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 2: but you know, when the public gets something, they you

921
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 2: lose control over sort of how it's you know, how

922
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 2: it lives. And so one of the things that was

923
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:26,240
Speaker 2: so interesting, it's been so interesting to me is people

924
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:28,879
Speaker 2: understand that like it's a story about nineteen fifty five,

925
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 2: and it's a story about right now, and you know

926
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 2: that that, you know, in a certain way like separate

927
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 2: from whether you were for it or against it. Like

928
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 2: in some ways, what the MAGA project really is is

929
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 2: an attempt to go back before the civil rights movement.

930
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:48,400
Speaker 2: And so we actually have a date for that because

931
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 2: you know, people point to the murder of him Attil

932
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:53,840
Speaker 2: is the starting gun. And so the America that was

933
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:57,440
Speaker 2: Great again was August twenty seventh, nineteen fifty five, and

934
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 2: so it's been interesting over the last year as people

935
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 2: have read sort of a deep history that more and

936
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 2: more feels like a current events quoes.

937
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting about what you said about why

938
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 1: you felt you felt like here you thought you knew

939
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 1: where you grew up, and yet you didn't realize what

940
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 1: was happening where you grew up. I always say I

941
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 1: was both lucky to grow up in Miami in the

942
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 1: seventies and eighties, when I always said I was born

943
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 1: in Miama, and then I graduated high school in Miami.

944
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: But I remember thinking about Florida's history, and during the

945
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 1: sort of the George Floyd reckoning that we had with

946
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 1: some various historical events, one that hit me hard that

947
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 1: I didn't know about was called Axe Handle Sunday, and

948
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:49,320
Speaker 1: it was essentially a white supremacist, you know, race riot

949
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 1: that was started in Jacksonville. And I'm like, how come

950
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 1: we didn't tell that? How come I didn't learn that

951
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 1: in Florida history, you know. Never mind Black Wall Street

952
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 1: and Tulsa, never mind you with the barn I mean,

953
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:04,479
Speaker 1: this is a lot of the history of the South,

954
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 1: isn't it.

955
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 2: Look I'm going to read you a this is what

956
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 2: is being taught about in it Till in a school

957
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 2: in the Mississippi Delta right now, and like so I

958
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,800
Speaker 2: have a picture of this textbook and so just in case,

959
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 2: like you know, so this is what they're teaching. This

960
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,879
Speaker 2: is like a current textbook to your point about axe

961
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 2: handle Sunday. In nineteen fifty five, JP Coleman, the Attorney

962
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 2: general from Choctaw County, was elected governor in Mississippi's first

963
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:35,280
Speaker 2: general election after the Brown v. Board of Education decision.

964
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:38,880
Speaker 2: Coleman promised to keep the schools segregated. He proved to

965
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 2: be a moderating force during a very difficult time. Just

966
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 2: after the election, Emmett Till, a young black man from Chicago,

967
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:48,840
Speaker 2: allegedly made a pass at a white woman in a

968
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 2: rural store. Two men kidnapped him, beat him, killed him,

969
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,760
Speaker 2: and threw his body in the Tallahatchee River. The coverage

970
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,399
Speaker 2: of the trial and acquittal of his accused murderers, who

971
00:54:57,440 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 2: later admitted their guilt in an article in a National

972
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 2: Man magazine, painted a poor picture of Mississippi and it's

973
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 2: white citizens.

974
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's twenty twenty five textbook.

975
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 2: Yes, and so like, oh my god, no, I know,

976
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 2: and so like we're not when you wonder, like sometimes

977
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,880
Speaker 2: when you turn your TV and you're like, well, who

978
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 2: are like what is like how is my reality so

979
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 2: different than this reality? Because you know, you see people

980
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 2: who how could you possibly think that? And you know,

981
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 2: one of the reasons there's such a war on black

982
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 2: history sort of disguised as a war on like the

983
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:35,840
Speaker 2: excesses of locism, which, by the way, like you know,

984
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:38,800
Speaker 2: those are two very different things that they've been lumped together,

985
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:42,400
Speaker 2: and so like the war on Black history is being

986
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 2: waged by people who have been rewriting history in textbooks,

987
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 2: specifically for fifty seventy five years, you know. And you

988
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 2: know in Mississippi. I don't know about growing up in Miami,

989
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 2: but in Mississippi, the trick to understanding the state is

990
00:55:55,120 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 2: the accusation is always the confession and so and so, well.

991
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:02,359
Speaker 1: My god, we see that with Trump now, the joke

992
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,759
Speaker 1: is always projection, Right, whatever he accuses opponents have done,

993
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: it's exactly what either he's doing or wants to do.

994
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so that's been true Mississippi for a very

995
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 2: long time. And so you know, I mean, like sometimes

996
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 2: it feels so disheartening because like there's an entire history

997
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 2: of the state that like I certainly didn't know. And

998
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 2: you know, the degree to which you know all this

999
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 2: is tied to capital markets. You know, the plantation where

1000
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 2: Mattil was killed. Until very recently it has been owned

1001
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:33,960
Speaker 2: by a publicly traded company. So if you had a

1002
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:37,319
Speaker 2: four oh one K with Vanguard Fidelity or black Rock,

1003
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 2: you owned a tiny piece of the plantation where Mattil

1004
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 2: was killed. And so like, I mean, so much of

1005
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:46,240
Speaker 2: the scholarship around America's original sin feels like it stops

1006
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 2: at the water's edge, you know, I mean, like it's

1007
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 2: some ways the biggest flaw of sixteen nineteen is that

1008
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,399
Speaker 2: it wasn't radical enough, right, you know that, Like they're

1009
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 2: like it's stopped at the water's edge, as opposed to

1010
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 2: following the money to Manchester and Liverpool and London and

1011
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 2: sort of how you know, you know Manchester, which is

1012
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:06,359
Speaker 2: where Rolls met Royce and also where Marx met Engele,

1013
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 2: you know, and like and so like, it is interesting

1014
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:11,320
Speaker 2: when you start following the money about how a murder

1015
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:13,879
Speaker 2: happened on a piece of land in Mississippi, you end

1016
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:17,959
Speaker 2: up very quickly seeing that like, oh this is you know,

1017
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 2: this is not just some backwar water where America can

1018
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 2: store its sins. This is like deeply connected to the

1019
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 2: whole world.

1020
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 1: So one way that I try to have some optimism

1021
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 1: about this fight that we're having about frankly, what is

1022
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 1: recent history is that there are still a lot of

1023
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 1: us alive. Now, I was, I went. I started school

1024
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 1: about six years after desegregation in Miami. I think you were.

1025
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 1: You were just after you started school, just after desegregation.

1026
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, Missisi. Yeah, Mississippi desegregated in nineteen seventy. So the

1027
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 2: first class in Mississippi that went to an integrated school

1028
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 2: all twelve years, graduated from high school in nineteen eighty two.

1029
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:10,439
Speaker 1: Okay, those folks are still alive. Do you hold out

1030
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 1: the hope? And I know this is a weird way

1031
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: of saying it that when the last person who was

1032
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 1: essentially raised and segregated America passes on, that maybe we

1033
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 1: have a different we are able to have a different,

1034
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 1: more honest conversation about the first fifty years of the

1035
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 1: twentieth century.

1036
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 2: No, And because the right answer in the test is

1037
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:34,920
Speaker 2: painted a poor picture of Mississippi and it's white citizens,

1038
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:37,360
Speaker 2: and you know, like, you know, one of the things

1039
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 2: people always ask me is because the barn wherem Until

1040
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 2: was killed is it's just a barn. It's a guy's barn.

1041
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 2: You know, he has his Christmas decoration.

1042
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 1: Why is it in a landmark?

1043
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, well there you're you know, that's a good question.

1044
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 2: And so it's in the process of being turned into one,

1045
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 2: which is an interesting thing, but like right now, it's

1046
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 2: just a guy's barn, and so people always ask, well,

1047
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 2: you know, how can he sleep next to it? You know,

1048
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 2: from his barbecue grill by his swimming pool, you can

1049
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:03,920
Speaker 2: see it, it's like right there, And so people, how

1050
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 2: could he do that? And I'm like, well, every single

1051
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 2: authority figure in his entire life, every coach, every teacher,

1052
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 2: every preacher, every scout master, every elder, every friend of

1053
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 2: his dad's at the hunting camp, every single person with

1054
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 2: authority in his entire life has told him his entire life,

1055
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 2: a very specific version of this history. And so like,

1056
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, in some ways, like you know,

1057
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:36,440
Speaker 2: Mississippi is you know, Mississippi elected ray Mabeth not that

1058
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:39,880
Speaker 2: long ago, right, you know, and like Mississippi was a

1059
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 2: place that really had a moment miss Mississippi had a

1060
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:47,040
Speaker 2: bunch of Democratic governors in a row through William Winner,

1061
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 2: who I'm sure you.

1062
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 1: And they all want on promising to improve public education,

1063
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:55,760
Speaker 1: which is really like this was the one through line

1064
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:57,440
Speaker 1: that got him elected, right.

1065
00:59:57,560 --> 00:59:59,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and you know, William Winner sacrificed his

1066
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 2: political career forcing through universal kindergarten, you know. But so

1067
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 2: Mississippi was a progressive enough place that in nineteen eighty

1068
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 2: eight they elected Ray Mavis. And so, you know, my

1069
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:15,800
Speaker 2: worry is that the opposite of what you suggest is true.

1070
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:18,360
Speaker 2: That you know, the Irish, you know, the Irish remember

1071
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 2: the defeats long after the British have forgotten the victories.

1072
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 2: And like, my worry is that the further this gets

1073
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 2: from actual human beings experience, and the more it becomes

1074
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:34,520
Speaker 2: the sort of property of myths, that like that we

1075
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 2: end up in this situation where it's actually auguring in

1076
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 2: on itself. But I mean, you know, the I don't know,

1077
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:46,160
Speaker 2: I mean, like the question you're asking obviously is the

1078
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 2: central question, right No, I I.

1079
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 1: Guess I look at it this way, like, is it

1080
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:53,560
Speaker 1: progress that most of us now view the gone with

1081
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 1: the win as a bunch of fictional garbage.

1082
01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 2: I think it's incredible progress because you know, I mean,

1083
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 2: I was just talking somebody this morning about this. You know,

1084
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 2: Kentucky was a neutral state during the Civil War. They

1085
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 2: had three times as many citizens fighting for the Union

1086
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:11,080
Speaker 2: Army as the Confederate army. And now when you go

1087
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 2: to Kentucky, I mean they draped themselves in sort of

1088
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 2: the old South Lost Couset mythology. So like the question

1089
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 2: I love to ask about the state of Kentucky is

1090
01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 2: is this the only place in the world that claims

1091
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:25,920
Speaker 2: to have lost a war at one?

1092
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 1: Have you been to West Virginia. Look, let me tell you, dude,

1093
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I find it hilarious that West Virginia and

1094
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:36,840
Speaker 1: Virginia have essentially traded. It's West Virginia. I'll never forget

1095
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:40,680
Speaker 1: when the governor chose to join the Southern Governors Association.

1096
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 1: This was about twenty years ago, and I'm like, does

1097
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 1: the governor understand the history of West Virginia? What are

1098
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 1: you talking about?

1099
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you know, I mean to your question

1100
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 2: earlier in my answer, you know, I mean, what is history?

1101
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 2: You know? Also, like West Virginia, though, like West Virginia

1102
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 2: does have rolls.

1103
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 1: That's their union credit.

1104
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 2: I like a pepperoni role. I used to cover the

1105
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 2: LSU football team when Nick Saban was the coach, and

1106
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 2: one time his mother, who's from West Virginia, made us

1107
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 2: all pepperoni roles. So, you know, West Virginia of course,

1108
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:19,320
Speaker 2: has turned its back on its entire reason for existing,

1109
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:21,040
Speaker 2: but it still has the Pepperoni roles.

1110
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:24,920
Speaker 1: Suck fair enough. Well, look, the capital of the state

1111
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 1: that had the capital of the Confederacy I think seceded

1112
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 1: from the Confederacy about fifteen years ago.

1113
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 2: Well, you know, and all this stuff. I mean it's

1114
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 2: you know, my high school American history teacher in the

1115
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 2: eighth grade, Miss Halcombe, called it the War of Northern Aggression.

1116
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:40,919
Speaker 2: You know, this is not that long ago.

1117
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 1: We used to laugh about this. I mean I was

1118
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 1: raised with that, you know, all this stuff. But the

1119
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 1: fact that that mythology just sort of did take hold,

1120
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 1: I mean that really was damaging. And I don't think

1121
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 1: we fully appreciate how damaging that is when you just

1122
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:59,400
Speaker 1: allow the pop culture to oh that's hilarious. Oh that's funny.

1123
01:02:59,560 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 2: And also like, I mean a real like interesting comparison now,

1124
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 2: because you know, you have a lot of people now

1125
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:10,720
Speaker 2: who campaigned on saying wild stuff and now actually have

1126
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:13,360
Speaker 2: to govern. I mean one of the things, you know,

1127
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:17,919
Speaker 2: the people who were agitating for secession in eighteen fifty eight,

1128
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:22,080
Speaker 2: fifty nine, eighteen sixty, like these were just bomb throwing politicians.

1129
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:24,400
Speaker 2: It never occurred to them. I don't think that anybody

1130
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:27,400
Speaker 2: would actually do this shit, you know, and so like

1131
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:29,760
Speaker 2: you know, in the big argument for the Civil War,

1132
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:32,280
Speaker 2: this is not the conversation I expected to have, but

1133
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:35,760
Speaker 2: this is fascinating. But no, but the argument for the

1134
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:38,680
Speaker 2: Civil War was that that this is you know, cotton

1135
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:41,720
Speaker 2: was oil, so Mississippi was Saudi Arabia, and this is

1136
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:45,880
Speaker 2: the world's most powerful commodity, and so the sorry that's

1137
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 2: a jet, I'm right by lax. So that was the

1138
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:53,520
Speaker 2: world's most most powerful and important commodity, and that Europe

1139
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:56,480
Speaker 2: and all these textile mills would be so desperate to

1140
01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:59,040
Speaker 2: get the southern cotton back that they would stop the

1141
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:02,360
Speaker 2: US and make us settled the war. The problem was

1142
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 2: is that none of these politicians, I guess we're actual

1143
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:08,440
Speaker 2: cotton farmers, because every cotton farmer, you know, we've been

1144
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 2: doing it a long time, will tell you that the

1145
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:13,760
Speaker 2: most important thing to know when trying to predict what

1146
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:16,400
Speaker 2: the price is going to be is something called the carryover.

1147
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 2: And that's how many bales are sitting in warehouses waiting

1148
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:24,160
Speaker 2: to go into textile mills. And so what's the carryover

1149
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:27,919
Speaker 2: and so because that determines how much cotton people need.

1150
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:31,800
Speaker 2: So the largest carryovers in history to that point had

1151
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 2: been eighteen fifty nine and eighteen sixty, which meant that Manchester,

1152
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:39,920
Speaker 2: England didn't need a single bail of southern cotton until

1153
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 2: at least deep in the winter of eighteen sixty three,

1154
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:46,680
Speaker 2: by which point the war was lost. So all of

1155
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:50,040
Speaker 2: these eighteen year old boys who got convinced to go

1156
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:53,360
Speaker 2: fight for something went to these far away fields and

1157
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:56,960
Speaker 2: died in the most painful ways possible because their leaders

1158
01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 2: couldn't bother to learn basic micro and like like. And

1159
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 2: so that's sort of like unwilling, uncurious, the desire and

1160
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:11,320
Speaker 2: almost fraud and being uncurious and stupid like has real

1161
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:14,560
Speaker 2: impact on actual people's lives. And it's just like it

1162
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:16,360
Speaker 2: seems like we just you know, do it again and

1163
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:17,440
Speaker 2: again and again and again.

1164
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:20,400
Speaker 1: No, it's it's actually I look at this era and

1165
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:23,240
Speaker 1: I keep saying, well, we get through these. We've had

1166
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:26,440
Speaker 1: these other similar periods in history. We get through them.

1167
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:28,840
Speaker 1: And then under my breath, I say, well, it took

1168
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:31,880
Speaker 1: a civil war to get through one. It took a

1169
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:36,640
Speaker 1: total economic collapse, the Great Depression, essentially to get us

1170
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:40,080
Speaker 1: to figure out that we had to regulate business, right, like,

1171
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:46,640
Speaker 1: we do have to have catastrophic moments essentially close to

1172
01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 1: death as a country before we pull out of the

1173
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 1: death spiral.

1174
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 2: Well, you know, and like the idea that you know,

1175
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:58,480
Speaker 2: the modern clan really was sort of came back like

1176
01:05:58,520 --> 01:06:02,480
Speaker 2: say nineteen twenty two ish, right, and the you know,

1177
01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:06,480
Speaker 2: the March on Washington was nineteen sixty four, So what's

1178
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:09,880
Speaker 2: that forty two years? Yeah, so what's forty two years

1179
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 2: from today? You know, Like I mean, these are long

1180
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:17,720
Speaker 2: roads back. I mean, you can vandalize something very quickly,

1181
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:19,880
Speaker 2: but it takes a long time to put it back together.

1182
01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 2: I Mean. One of the things that I like, really

1183
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:25,720
Speaker 2: am proud about about this book though, about the Barn,

1184
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:28,680
Speaker 2: is that there is a sort of playbook of people

1185
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:34,000
Speaker 2: who resisted really powerful forces and have managed despite sort

1186
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:36,960
Speaker 2: of all of the all of the things conspiring towards

1187
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:39,440
Speaker 2: a rasure to keep this story alive, you know, I

1188
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:43,000
Speaker 2: mean Reverend Wheeler Parker, who was Immitt Till's first cousin,

1189
01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:46,120
Speaker 2: best friend, next door neighbor, rode the train south with

1190
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:49,080
Speaker 2: him in nineteen fifty five's the last living eyewitness to

1191
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:51,640
Speaker 2: the kidnapping. He and I went to the African American

1192
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:56,280
Speaker 2: History Museum in DC, and you know, when he came

1193
01:06:56,320 --> 01:06:59,320
Speaker 2: out of the room wherem Attill's coffin is, I mean,

1194
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:01,720
Speaker 2: he was just making annoyses and like, you know, this

1195
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 2: is a guy's a coaching minister. He's one of the

1196
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:06,840
Speaker 2: most sort of you know, this guy's a professional speaker.

1197
01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:09,080
Speaker 1: And so yeah, and.

1198
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 2: So we're like halfway up the you know the sort

1199
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:13,080
Speaker 2: of ramps. You know, we kind of go back up

1200
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:15,120
Speaker 2: until he can talk again. And then the thing he

1201
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 2: says is we got to make sure people remember, like

1202
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:23,120
Speaker 2: we can't let people forget. And so, you know, I

1203
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:26,000
Speaker 2: got invited to this thing in Chicago. I was actually

1204
01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:28,440
Speaker 2: just you know, this is odd, but you know, I

1205
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 2: worked for ESPN. So I was just having breakfast with

1206
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:33,360
Speaker 2: the basketball coach Phil Jackson, and we were literally I

1207
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:36,520
Speaker 2: was literally telling him this exact story about.

1208
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:39,040
Speaker 1: Knowing Phil Jackson's probably more interested in this than anything

1209
01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:41,120
Speaker 1: you want to ask about basketball way more.

1210
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:43,200
Speaker 2: And also you know he's a Chicago guy. And so

1211
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:45,840
Speaker 2: I said, I got invited to what would have been

1212
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:49,760
Speaker 2: him Until's eightieth birthday party. And we go into this

1213
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 2: like parish hall essentially in Argo Summit in Illinois, suburban

1214
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:56,800
Speaker 2: arg and it's where the Argo starts plan is. They

1215
01:07:56,800 --> 01:08:00,880
Speaker 2: make like k ro syrup and uh. And so we're

1216
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:05,080
Speaker 2: like we're sitting there and I slowly realized that every

1217
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:07,880
Speaker 2: living person who knew him, that Phil is in the rooms.

1218
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:10,040
Speaker 2: So like when I started doing this, there were probably

1219
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:12,120
Speaker 2: twelve people, and now they're eve been dying in front

1220
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:14,400
Speaker 2: of me. Now they're probably eight. And like there was

1221
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:16,599
Speaker 2: this moment where his aunt, I think her name is Thelma,

1222
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:19,799
Speaker 2: stands up and in this really really quiet voice says,

1223
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:21,960
Speaker 2: I wasn't there the night he died, but I was

1224
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:24,720
Speaker 2: there the morning he was born. So and you know,

1225
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:27,679
Speaker 2: people talk about him until like he's a symbol, and sure,

1226
01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:30,800
Speaker 2: he absolutely is, but he's also like he was a boy.

1227
01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:33,640
Speaker 2: You know, it was such a specific age. You know,

1228
01:08:33,760 --> 01:08:34,759
Speaker 2: he uh, you never.

1229
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:38,120
Speaker 1: Got to become a man, despite all in Mississippi history books, right, No, and.

1230
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:40,840
Speaker 2: Like you know, he was just like he was that

1231
01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:45,320
Speaker 2: unique age of boyhood where he was starting to get

1232
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:48,320
Speaker 2: his At his fourteenth birthday, his mother heard him and

1233
01:08:48,360 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 2: his friends playing Spin the bottle. But he also like

1234
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:54,559
Speaker 2: loved comic books. So he was that age where you

1235
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:56,240
Speaker 2: know where you're kind of maybe sorry.

1236
01:08:56,080 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 1: Fourteen going on twenty or fourteen one on ten.

1237
01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:00,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you sort of like maybe you're interested in

1238
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:02,760
Speaker 2: maybe trying to kiss a girl, but you still like

1239
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:05,439
Speaker 2: Spider Man, you know, and like that. That's such a

1240
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:09,439
Speaker 2: specific age of boyhood and like and you know, right

1241
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:13,000
Speaker 2: now in Chicago there is a like a storage facility

1242
01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:15,680
Speaker 2: that the family keeps. I guess they don't really know

1243
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:17,360
Speaker 2: what to do with it. And and it is his

1244
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:20,800
Speaker 2: toy train. And I think as long as there's a

1245
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:23,800
Speaker 2: room in Chicago where Emma Tell's toy trains there waiting

1246
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:26,440
Speaker 2: on a boy who's never coming home, it is incumbent

1247
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:29,600
Speaker 2: upon every America. And almost as an act of patriotism

1248
01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 2: to say that name over and over and over and

1249
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:35,800
Speaker 2: over again, like as some sort of shibbles, it's like

1250
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:38,120
Speaker 2: a prayer on what we want to be.

1251
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:49,320
Speaker 1: Look what you've done here, I think is so important.

1252
01:09:49,320 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 1: Where you take a symbol of a larger moment in

1253
01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:57,519
Speaker 1: history and sort of and by unpacking that symbol you

1254
01:09:57,640 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 1: learn a bigger story. The best history books are what

1255
01:10:02,479 --> 01:10:07,000
Speaker 1: I are, the undiscovered history that gets resurfaced. And I

1256
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:10,559
Speaker 1: assume this is this is you know, is this a

1257
01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:12,599
Speaker 1: one off for you? Or do you want to pursue

1258
01:10:12,720 --> 01:10:16,960
Speaker 1: other sort of symbolic ways that that history got buried

1259
01:10:16,960 --> 01:10:19,719
Speaker 1: that you could uniquely resurface.

1260
01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:22,479
Speaker 2: You know, I have a couple of things kicking around,

1261
01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:26,599
Speaker 2: you know, I uh, and like, I guess I'll bit

1262
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:28,920
Speaker 2: to test this with you right now. I am very

1263
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:32,439
Speaker 2: interested in a book that I haven't figured out the

1264
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:35,280
Speaker 2: structure or even the characters of it that goes from

1265
01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:40,680
Speaker 2: the last US soldier off who's out of Saigon in

1266
01:10:40,720 --> 01:10:43,280
Speaker 2: seventy three and when those before, like you know, before

1267
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:46,439
Speaker 2: Saigon fell, but from seventy three to NAFTA, because it

1268
01:10:46,439 --> 01:10:49,440
Speaker 2: feels like so many of the seeds of our current

1269
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:53,320
Speaker 2: predicament were sown in that period of time, and like

1270
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:58,600
Speaker 2: you know, the last US soldier to get on the

1271
01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:01,879
Speaker 2: last transport out of Vietnam was killed in the Pentagon

1272
01:11:01,880 --> 01:11:05,680
Speaker 2: on nine to eleven. He was there as a civilian contractor,

1273
01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:08,960
Speaker 2: and like in like the way those things, you know,

1274
01:11:09,240 --> 01:11:12,240
Speaker 2: the way those things just start turning in on each other.

1275
01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:15,720
Speaker 2: You realize this happened yesterday. I was just in uh

1276
01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:20,880
Speaker 2: in Vietnam for vacation and a bribe security guard to

1277
01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:22,639
Speaker 2: let you know, on the roof of the old CIA

1278
01:11:22,720 --> 01:11:26,160
Speaker 2: headquarters where that famous photograph is the helicopter.

1279
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:26,759
Speaker 1: Where the helicopter.

1280
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:34,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, people, yeah, And dude, there's all all of the

1281
01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:38,600
Speaker 2: Mercury lights lands government made Chicago, Illinois, Like all of

1282
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:41,320
Speaker 2: that stuff was still there. It's like we left yesterday.

1283
01:11:41,479 --> 01:11:45,679
Speaker 2: It's like in like so like I'm into the history

1284
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:48,400
Speaker 2: that is hiding in plain sight. And you know, and

1285
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:54,000
Speaker 2: you know, in the history of Mississippi. Uh, you know,

1286
01:11:54,080 --> 01:11:57,080
Speaker 2: what's the great Malcolm X. Everywhere south of Canada's Mississippi.

1287
01:11:57,160 --> 01:11:59,000
Speaker 2: You know. I think there's a way in which you

1288
01:11:59,120 --> 01:12:02,840
Speaker 2: have to understand Mississippi to understand America. And like, the

1289
01:12:02,880 --> 01:12:05,519
Speaker 2: thing that haunted me in the process of reporting this

1290
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:08,760
Speaker 2: book is that people don't realize the Mississippi Delta, like

1291
01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:10,880
Speaker 2: Paul Simon had it wrong. It is not the highway

1292
01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:12,920
Speaker 2: through the cradle of the Civil War. Most of the

1293
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:16,719
Speaker 2: Mississippi Delta was uninhabited, hardwood swamps until around nineteen hundred,

1294
01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:20,120
Speaker 2: Like the land clearing started like mid eighteen nine.

1295
01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:22,519
Speaker 1: We didn't have the technology, right, No, And so if

1296
01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:23,320
Speaker 1: you couldn't.

1297
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:24,960
Speaker 2: Get life insurance if you lived to the Mississippi Delta

1298
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:27,400
Speaker 2: until nineteen hundred. So I have this map. I mean,

1299
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:30,200
Speaker 2: so this is like twenty years after Frederick Turner's essay.

1300
01:12:30,439 --> 01:12:32,920
Speaker 2: This is twenty years after we caught Geronimo, twenty years

1301
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:36,120
Speaker 2: after the Ok Corral, And like I have this map

1302
01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:39,559
Speaker 2: that shows the railroads and they haven't joined yet, and

1303
01:12:39,600 --> 01:12:42,000
Speaker 2: this is well after like the Golden Spike out west,

1304
01:12:42,280 --> 01:12:45,040
Speaker 2: and they're laying these railroads in the Mississippi Delta, and

1305
01:12:45,080 --> 01:12:49,280
Speaker 2: you realize that the piece of land that is that

1306
01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:51,640
Speaker 2: it is in the middle of the gaps in the

1307
01:12:51,720 --> 01:12:55,479
Speaker 2: not connected railways is Township twenty two north range four West,

1308
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:57,720
Speaker 2: which is the exact piece of land where Emmitt Ttil

1309
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:01,000
Speaker 2: was killed. And so manifests destiny is like the you know,

1310
01:13:01,040 --> 01:13:03,320
Speaker 2: I love Greg Grandon's book The End of the Myth

1311
01:13:03,360 --> 01:13:06,519
Speaker 2: because he really deals with this. But like if the if,

1312
01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:09,519
Speaker 2: the if the well spring of American identity flows from

1313
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:13,320
Speaker 2: this idea of manifest destiny, and if the place where

1314
01:13:13,320 --> 01:13:17,840
Speaker 2: we actually settle the continent, wasn't somewhere out west with cowboys,

1315
01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:21,559
Speaker 2: but was actually underneath the bar the ground where em

1316
01:13:21,560 --> 01:13:24,840
Speaker 2: at Till was killed. I think that suggests something fundamentally

1317
01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:28,800
Speaker 2: different about everything we know about American history. And so, like,

1318
01:13:29,000 --> 01:13:30,679
Speaker 2: you know, one of one of the reasons the book

1319
01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:33,720
Speaker 2: is so uh in noted is well one, I mean,

1320
01:13:33,720 --> 01:13:34,920
Speaker 2: in this day and age, I think you have to

1321
01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:39,439
Speaker 2: show your work two, but two they're like there are

1322
01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:42,280
Speaker 2: ten more immittental books to be written, and like you

1323
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:44,400
Speaker 2: just want to make it easy for the next person

1324
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:45,799
Speaker 2: to strip it for parts.

1325
01:13:47,439 --> 01:13:49,400
Speaker 1: Well, that's I mean, that's that's what a good history

1326
01:13:49,400 --> 01:13:52,479
Speaker 1: book is supposed to do, because you know most and

1327
01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:55,200
Speaker 1: it's interesting. You know, you can't help, but I always,

1328
01:13:55,240 --> 01:14:00,680
Speaker 1: you know, I've learned this. I'm obsessed with the the

1329
01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:06,280
Speaker 1: era between Grant and McKinley because you know, I'm one

1330
01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:09,080
Speaker 1: of these people who the more I've learned about Garfield,

1331
01:14:09,120 --> 01:14:11,559
Speaker 1: the more I've decided, Boy, if Garfield had lived, maybe

1332
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:17,280
Speaker 1: we passed a civil rights bill literally eighty years sooner

1333
01:14:17,320 --> 01:14:20,280
Speaker 1: than we did that he might have been that guy.

1334
01:14:20,320 --> 01:14:24,240
Speaker 1: And it's always easy to mythologize dead presidents, right, we

1335
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:26,439
Speaker 1: did we do with Kennedy, you know, I don't. And

1336
01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:28,439
Speaker 1: the more I learned, the more you're like, Eh, Kennedy

1337
01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:30,880
Speaker 1: probably takes his the Vietnam. Let's not pretend he wouldn't have.

1338
01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:36,960
Speaker 1: But I've read so much on the eighteen seventy six election,

1339
01:14:38,400 --> 01:14:41,120
Speaker 1: which was sort of planted the seeds of Jim Crow

1340
01:14:41,240 --> 01:14:43,640
Speaker 1: and got rid of reconstruction, all of those things. And

1341
01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:47,439
Speaker 1: what you noticed so much is how much the whatever

1342
01:14:47,479 --> 01:14:51,760
Speaker 1: the author's politics is in the current era, ends up

1343
01:14:52,120 --> 01:14:56,160
Speaker 1: helping to be their own conclusions about what they discovered

1344
01:14:56,160 --> 01:14:58,680
Speaker 1: and reported on eighteen you know. And I don't know

1345
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:01,320
Speaker 1: if you you know, I don't think you can separate

1346
01:15:01,400 --> 01:15:04,600
Speaker 1: that right from the writer from the from you know.

1347
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:09,760
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, how did you view your job

1348
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:13,080
Speaker 1: in writing this history book? Were you trying to surface

1349
01:15:13,120 --> 01:15:17,000
Speaker 1: it by the way you understand today's politics, or by

1350
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:19,160
Speaker 1: how what was understood back then? Right?

1351
01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:22,439
Speaker 2: I mean I think, well, look, I think certainly you

1352
01:15:22,479 --> 01:15:25,920
Speaker 2: know it is we get into the trap of judging

1353
01:15:25,960 --> 01:15:30,080
Speaker 2: people from the comfort and safety of wherever we are now.

1354
01:15:30,240 --> 01:15:32,680
Speaker 1: I mean take Woodrow Wilson's a great example. We've all

1355
01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:36,120
Speaker 1: decided he's a racist now and should be almost erased

1356
01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:38,240
Speaker 1: from presidential.

1357
01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:42,320
Speaker 2: History, which is I mean, you know, he was a

1358
01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:44,960
Speaker 2: product of his era and the other thing. So I've

1359
01:15:44,960 --> 01:15:46,840
Speaker 2: been I've been working on a book right now that

1360
01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:52,400
Speaker 2: is uh, it's about a French spy and like VC

1361
01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:56,160
Speaker 2: government minister. And so one of the things that's so

1362
01:15:56,240 --> 01:15:59,479
Speaker 2: interesting is to go look at you know, you go

1363
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:02,360
Speaker 2: read Robert Paxton's history of VC France and you start

1364
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:05,519
Speaker 2: to realize like, oh, this was not this was a

1365
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:09,800
Speaker 2: you know, this was a French project where like, you know,

1366
01:16:09,840 --> 01:16:12,680
Speaker 2: the French far right was going to use the Nazis

1367
01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:15,519
Speaker 2: to settle all of their old lingering colors.

1368
01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:18,679
Speaker 1: The Nazis didn't they there were people ready to embrace

1369
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:19,800
Speaker 1: Nazis had already lived in.

1370
01:16:20,040 --> 01:16:22,599
Speaker 2: Oh yeah yeah, Like the French were writing their anti

1371
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:25,240
Speaker 2: Jewish laws before the Nazis told them to. But one

1372
01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:27,880
Speaker 2: of the things that's interesting is you watch all these

1373
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:31,840
Speaker 2: people trying to fence it because they don't know whether

1374
01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:35,160
Speaker 2: the Germans or the English are going to win. And

1375
01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:37,759
Speaker 2: so you know, have you have General Vegan telling Churchill

1376
01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:40,280
Speaker 2: that your next will be rung in three weeks. So

1377
01:16:40,400 --> 01:16:43,320
Speaker 2: what you have are people who have who's who never

1378
01:16:43,400 --> 01:16:47,120
Speaker 2: got out from under their sort of collaborationist decisions, and

1379
01:16:47,160 --> 01:16:49,040
Speaker 2: a lot of them are just trying to sit the

1380
01:16:49,040 --> 01:16:51,559
Speaker 2: fence as long as they can. And like the ones

1381
01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:54,160
Speaker 2: who sort of didn't get wrapped up and brought down

1382
01:16:54,240 --> 01:16:56,360
Speaker 2: in all of the purges in forty five and forty

1383
01:16:56,400 --> 01:16:59,960
Speaker 2: six were the ones who understood enough about sort of

1384
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:04,040
Speaker 2: military operations that when Germany invaded Russia that it was

1385
01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:06,800
Speaker 2: over and that everything else was in game, and so

1386
01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:09,800
Speaker 2: they could afford to support the Allies. Robert Paxton, who

1387
01:17:09,840 --> 01:17:13,320
Speaker 2: wrote the great books about V. C. France, told me

1388
01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:23,320
Speaker 2: that he found the widow of Marshall Paton's chief of staff,

1389
01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:28,519
Speaker 2: and she gave him his diary, and what he realized

1390
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:31,200
Speaker 2: is there were two diaries. There was one that was

1391
01:17:31,280 --> 01:17:35,080
Speaker 2: written that was I'm all about Germany and Italy and

1392
01:17:35,120 --> 01:17:37,960
Speaker 2: the New Europe and the Fascist experiment, and the other

1393
01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:40,640
Speaker 2: one was all about Churchill and the Allies, and like

1394
01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:43,400
Speaker 2: literally in real time, they were trying to go both ways.

1395
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:45,679
Speaker 2: And so I think one of the things we do

1396
01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:49,839
Speaker 2: from the safety of the future is we don't understand

1397
01:17:49,840 --> 01:17:52,479
Speaker 2: that maybe the only point, the only thing to do

1398
01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:54,280
Speaker 2: in a world war is to try to survive it,

1399
01:17:54,680 --> 01:17:59,960
Speaker 2: and what that looks like afterwards is often very very ugly,

1400
01:18:00,479 --> 01:18:03,519
Speaker 2: and the price that people pay for their survival is

1401
01:18:03,560 --> 01:18:05,960
Speaker 2: having to walk around with the things they did to survive.

1402
01:18:06,240 --> 01:18:07,960
Speaker 2: And so, like, I mean, that's a long answer to

1403
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:10,320
Speaker 2: your question about eighteen seventy six. Sure, but like I

1404
01:18:10,360 --> 01:18:13,800
Speaker 2: also think that, like people are self interested, and people

1405
01:18:13,840 --> 01:18:15,599
Speaker 2: are in the moment trying to read the tea leaves

1406
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:16,559
Speaker 2: and figure out what to do.

1407
01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:22,599
Speaker 1: How'd you end up being a sports writer? I wanted

1408
01:18:22,640 --> 01:18:23,680
Speaker 1: to be easily been doing this.

1409
01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:26,719
Speaker 2: I wanted to write about music, and I was randomly

1410
01:18:26,720 --> 01:18:31,680
Speaker 2: assigned to sports at the college newspaper. Like you know,

1411
01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:33,720
Speaker 2: I was a big deadhead. All I really wanted to.

1412
01:18:33,720 --> 01:18:35,479
Speaker 1: Do is like, yeah, where were you at school?

1413
01:18:35,960 --> 01:18:40,280
Speaker 2: University of Missouri, Go Tigers, there you go, And so

1414
01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:45,360
Speaker 2: like this has all been a very odd accident, you know,

1415
01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:48,680
Speaker 2: and so but yeah, I mean, like the thing that's

1416
01:18:48,680 --> 01:18:51,320
Speaker 2: cool about sports is that you have a group of

1417
01:18:51,360 --> 01:18:54,240
Speaker 2: people who are have nothing in common except they all

1418
01:18:54,240 --> 01:18:57,679
Speaker 2: want some sort of genetic lottery. And like, I'm very

1419
01:18:57,720 --> 01:19:00,439
Speaker 2: into tribal identity. And you know, I love the line

1420
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:02,960
Speaker 2: from the Episcopal liturgy we do this in remembrance of you,

1421
01:19:03,439 --> 01:19:06,000
Speaker 2: and like so much of the ways in which really

1422
01:19:06,080 --> 01:19:11,519
Speaker 2: complex ideas about home and family are coded and handed

1423
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:14,320
Speaker 2: down or through sports, and so like, I love the

1424
01:19:14,360 --> 01:19:17,520
Speaker 2: way that sports is a carrying case for people's mythologies

1425
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:21,840
Speaker 2: and their family stories. And you know, so I don't know,

1426
01:19:21,880 --> 01:19:24,160
Speaker 2: like I've never I've always thought that if I got bored,

1427
01:19:24,160 --> 01:19:26,360
Speaker 2: that I would quit, and I just have never gotten bored.

1428
01:19:27,600 --> 01:19:31,879
Speaker 1: So I had a conversation with Jayadande recently in Batak.

1429
01:19:32,360 --> 01:19:38,559
Speaker 1: We were talking about, you know, I had a you know,

1430
01:19:38,600 --> 01:19:43,320
Speaker 1: why is it that sports in the forties and fifties

1431
01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:48,599
Speaker 1: was leaning in to essentially, you know, the new America

1432
01:19:48,760 --> 01:19:51,559
Speaker 1: was leaning in on civil rights, even if the sports

1433
01:19:51,560 --> 01:19:54,680
Speaker 1: owners themselves weren't always right. You know, look that some

1434
01:19:54,720 --> 01:19:56,200
Speaker 1: of them were just doing it because they wanted to win.

1435
01:19:56,760 --> 01:19:59,280
Speaker 1: But in some ways sports was ahead of you know,

1436
01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:05,200
Speaker 1: we segregated sports before we desegregated schools. And you know,

1437
01:20:05,280 --> 01:20:08,040
Speaker 1: so I've always held sports up as sort of, hey,

1438
01:20:08,080 --> 01:20:11,479
Speaker 1: this is the cultural corner of America that can actually

1439
01:20:12,080 --> 01:20:14,439
Speaker 1: bring us together and maybe it can help us solve

1440
01:20:14,439 --> 01:20:17,840
Speaker 1: a problem before, you know, you know, instead of the politicians.

1441
01:20:18,240 --> 01:20:21,040
Speaker 1: And then he brought up something he goes, but you know,

1442
01:20:21,080 --> 01:20:24,480
Speaker 1: we're not seeing that with today's athletes, that today's athletes

1443
01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:29,920
Speaker 1: have no interest in using a sports platform to fight

1444
01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:32,679
Speaker 1: for a civil right, And he pointed out the example

1445
01:20:32,720 --> 01:20:36,160
Speaker 1: of the Latino ball baseball players have been pretty silent

1446
01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:40,519
Speaker 1: about what's been going on with ice in America. Do

1447
01:20:40,600 --> 01:20:43,280
Speaker 1: you see that change in the in the sports figure

1448
01:20:43,640 --> 01:20:46,160
Speaker 1: of today versus the sports figure that you and I

1449
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:46,639
Speaker 1: grew up with.

1450
01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:48,920
Speaker 2: I think a couple of things. I mean, I think,

1451
01:20:49,240 --> 01:20:51,920
Speaker 2: you know, they're the exceptions that proved the root. Like,

1452
01:20:52,080 --> 01:20:56,240
Speaker 2: you know, like Lebron James has put his literal money

1453
01:20:56,240 --> 01:20:58,679
Speaker 2: where his mouth is over and over and over again

1454
01:20:59,040 --> 01:21:02,320
Speaker 2: and sort of great personal cost to his ubiquity. I mean,

1455
01:21:02,360 --> 01:21:03,880
Speaker 2: one of the things that I was just talking to

1456
01:21:03,920 --> 01:21:07,559
Speaker 2: Phil about was could Michael Jordan? Would Michael Jordan have

1457
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:11,479
Speaker 2: been as universally beloved now as he was in the

1458
01:21:11,560 --> 01:21:14,400
Speaker 2: nineteen nineties, which was a very specific time in America.

1459
01:21:14,439 --> 01:21:17,160
Speaker 2: It was you know, uh, and and you know, I

1460
01:21:17,200 --> 01:21:19,880
Speaker 2: think the answer is no. Like I think that he

1461
01:21:19,960 --> 01:21:24,160
Speaker 2: wouldn't be allowed to fence, sit and be and be.

1462
01:21:24,320 --> 01:21:26,799
Speaker 1: The North Carolina Senate race is one of my favorite examples,

1463
01:21:26,840 --> 01:21:29,760
Speaker 1: right the nineteen ninety race. This was Helm's gant, This

1464
01:21:29,960 --> 01:21:33,320
Speaker 1: was a big deal of African American mayor of Charlotte,

1465
01:21:33,439 --> 01:21:37,840
Speaker 1: Jesse Helms the and you know, the myth and I

1466
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:40,120
Speaker 1: know that we've never found the actual quote, right, but

1467
01:21:40,160 --> 01:21:43,320
Speaker 1: the myth was he set that race out because Republicans

1468
01:21:43,320 --> 01:21:44,120
Speaker 1: by sneakers too.

1469
01:21:44,439 --> 01:21:46,280
Speaker 2: And you know, one of the things that's so interesting

1470
01:21:46,320 --> 01:21:49,439
Speaker 2: about that is that you know, like the like you know,

1471
01:21:49,520 --> 01:21:53,160
Speaker 2: I think that like, my favorite living American writer is

1472
01:21:53,160 --> 01:21:55,960
Speaker 2: this guy named kiss A Layman who's from Mississippi, who

1473
01:21:56,000 --> 01:21:58,360
Speaker 2: I just love. And so one of the things KSA

1474
01:21:58,439 --> 01:22:01,240
Speaker 2: and I talked about in the contest to Jordan is

1475
01:22:01,280 --> 01:22:05,040
Speaker 2: he was, like, you have to understand the rural urban interplay,

1476
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:09,920
Speaker 2: especially as it relates to Michael Jordan, because if you're

1477
01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:13,960
Speaker 2: from this people say he's from Wilmington, which is true,

1478
01:22:14,160 --> 01:22:17,400
Speaker 2: but really he's from Liken, the country right outside of Wilmington.

1479
01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:20,640
Speaker 2: And you know, he knew his great grandfather who was

1480
01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:22,960
Speaker 2: the son of a slaved man, and you know, in

1481
01:22:23,000 --> 01:22:26,200
Speaker 2: his like he grew up in a very rural life.

1482
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:31,120
Speaker 2: And so the things A says about Michael Jordan is

1483
01:22:31,160 --> 01:22:39,040
Speaker 2: that his his chase of public excellence and universal acceptance

1484
01:22:39,439 --> 01:22:42,320
Speaker 2: is political in its own way. And so like I mean,

1485
01:22:42,360 --> 01:22:44,120
Speaker 2: I think one of the things is, you know, there's

1486
01:22:44,160 --> 01:22:48,879
Speaker 2: a it always used to be better when but there's

1487
01:22:49,080 --> 01:22:52,360
Speaker 2: but to your point, there's a certain you know, the

1488
01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:57,720
Speaker 2: quarterly earnings report, obsession with accounting, you know, the you know,

1489
01:22:58,800 --> 01:23:02,000
Speaker 2: like that has invaded sports. Like the entire goat argument

1490
01:23:02,120 --> 01:23:05,120
Speaker 2: is utterly absurd, and that is a product of a

1491
01:23:05,240 --> 01:23:08,320
Speaker 2: very specific America that didn't used to exist. And so

1492
01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:10,920
Speaker 2: if you know, if you look at sort of nineteen

1493
01:23:11,000 --> 01:23:15,280
Speaker 2: forty five to say nineteen sixty, if you like, from

1494
01:23:15,320 --> 01:23:18,040
Speaker 2: the end of the war until Kennedy beating Eisenhower or

1495
01:23:18,120 --> 01:23:20,200
Speaker 2: Kennedy winning. I don't know if he beat Eisenhower actually

1496
01:23:20,240 --> 01:23:23,599
Speaker 2: I should know that, but beat Nixon, that's right. So

1497
01:23:23,760 --> 01:23:26,720
Speaker 2: until the end of Eisenhower's term, Like, you know, the

1498
01:23:27,439 --> 01:23:31,160
Speaker 2: the ideal of an American man wasn't Michael Jordan, who

1499
01:23:31,200 --> 01:23:35,719
Speaker 2: is a zero sum, cutthroat who prioritizes winning against everything

1500
01:23:35,760 --> 01:23:38,839
Speaker 2: and is lauded for it. I mean, the American heroes

1501
01:23:38,880 --> 01:23:43,519
Speaker 2: were Eisenhower and Jackie Robinson, and I mean sort.

1502
01:23:43,400 --> 01:23:47,559
Speaker 1: Of Joe Demagia, Joeomaggio, you got to marry Marilyn Monroe,

1503
01:23:47,760 --> 01:23:49,840
Speaker 1: and yeah, I mean that'd be a TV pitch Man.

1504
01:23:49,960 --> 01:23:52,639
Speaker 1: He was the first in some way meter coffee, right,

1505
01:23:52,680 --> 01:23:56,679
Speaker 1: he was the first. He might be the first modern

1506
01:23:57,160 --> 01:23:58,000
Speaker 1: sports celebrity.

1507
01:23:58,160 --> 01:24:01,559
Speaker 2: But all of those guys are rooted in a kind

1508
01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:04,519
Speaker 2: of morality too, like, you know, like one of the

1509
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:07,599
Speaker 2: sort of problem, you know, the postmodern death of the

1510
01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:10,880
Speaker 2: platonic ideal of a person, you know, is certainly at

1511
01:24:10,920 --> 01:24:13,800
Speaker 2: play with athletes, where it's just you know, it's like

1512
01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:18,960
Speaker 2: the Bill Bill Belichick fundamentally misunderstood everything, you know. I mean,

1513
01:24:18,960 --> 01:24:22,320
Speaker 2: it's the idea that like, uh like we still deal

1514
01:24:22,360 --> 01:24:25,000
Speaker 2: with myths, you know, I mean we you know, like

1515
01:24:25,439 --> 01:24:29,439
Speaker 2: you know, Bill Belichick, who accidentally drafted Tom Brady, is

1516
01:24:29,479 --> 01:24:32,280
Speaker 2: one of the greatest coaches ever with Tom Brady and

1517
01:24:32,479 --> 01:24:35,840
Speaker 2: is below average without him, and like so like we

1518
01:24:35,880 --> 01:24:39,560
Speaker 2: are so quick to point to the coach as the genius,

1519
01:24:39,960 --> 01:24:42,800
Speaker 2: and like that's leftover muscle memory from that thing you're

1520
01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:46,439
Speaker 2: talking about. About. You know, all the sports writers come

1521
01:24:46,439 --> 01:24:48,920
Speaker 2: home from all the war correspondents come home from World

1522
01:24:48,920 --> 01:24:52,320
Speaker 2: War Two writing about Patent and Nimitz and Omar Bradley

1523
01:24:52,400 --> 01:24:55,320
Speaker 2: and Eisenhower, and they all go work for the sports departments,

1524
01:24:55,320 --> 01:24:57,679
Speaker 2: and now they're writing about the coaches using the sort

1525
01:24:57,680 --> 01:25:00,680
Speaker 2: of hand me down vocabulary interesting and like so a

1526
01:25:00,720 --> 01:25:03,519
Speaker 2: lot of that stuff still exists, and you know, I

1527
01:25:03,520 --> 01:25:05,880
Speaker 2: think there are a lot of athletes who are you know,

1528
01:25:07,840 --> 01:25:10,000
Speaker 2: you know, Dale Murphy is eligible for the Hall of

1529
01:25:10,080 --> 01:25:13,200
Speaker 2: Fame again and like should should be in because like

1530
01:25:13,240 --> 01:25:17,040
Speaker 2: that's a guy who you know lives his American values.

1531
01:25:17,520 --> 01:25:23,240
Speaker 2: You know, Jackie Robinson is a huge like like archetype

1532
01:25:23,240 --> 01:25:26,320
Speaker 2: of what an American should be. And so like, you know,

1533
01:25:26,360 --> 01:25:28,280
Speaker 2: I think it goes in waves. I certainly think we

1534
01:25:28,360 --> 01:25:31,920
Speaker 2: are in a you know, a moment of reductiveness.

1535
01:25:32,800 --> 01:25:35,920
Speaker 1: No, I think that's true. I look at your career

1536
01:25:35,920 --> 01:25:37,400
Speaker 1: and I think of Richard ben Kramer.

1537
01:25:37,560 --> 01:25:39,720
Speaker 2: Do you take that as a compliment, yes, I mean

1538
01:25:39,760 --> 01:25:42,960
Speaker 2: what it takes is like to what it takes as unbelievable.

1539
01:25:43,240 --> 01:25:45,200
Speaker 2: And then you know his Ted Williams story.

1540
01:25:45,680 --> 01:25:49,000
Speaker 1: That Ted Williams' profiles. You know, sorry to not say

1541
01:25:49,000 --> 01:25:51,000
Speaker 1: this about what are your profiles. It's the greatest sports

1542
01:25:51,000 --> 01:25:51,960
Speaker 1: profile I've ever read.

1543
01:25:52,479 --> 01:25:54,960
Speaker 2: And it's not close. I mean, like you know what

1544
01:25:55,000 --> 01:25:57,000
Speaker 2: I mean, like like I'm trying to think of what

1545
01:25:57,120 --> 01:25:59,840
Speaker 2: might be the second best, and I mean, you know,

1546
01:26:00,080 --> 01:26:03,360
Speaker 2: maybe Gayta least on Joe Demaggio. But like, I mean,

1547
01:26:03,400 --> 01:26:07,320
Speaker 2: there's a you know, it's probably like Frank the Ford

1548
01:26:07,400 --> 01:26:08,320
Speaker 2: on Bobby nine and.

1549
01:26:08,320 --> 01:26:11,120
Speaker 1: Albert Stam on October sixty four, whether you believe that's

1550
01:26:11,120 --> 01:26:13,160
Speaker 1: a book or really a big lung magazine piece. I

1551
01:26:13,200 --> 01:26:16,439
Speaker 1: could argue it's an awesome like Albert Stamm it was

1552
01:26:16,439 --> 01:26:18,960
Speaker 1: a magazine piece, Like what's the difference.

1553
01:26:18,840 --> 01:26:21,200
Speaker 2: You know? I mean like like uh no, I mean

1554
01:26:21,240 --> 01:26:23,360
Speaker 2: like that that I mean that Richard ben Cramer story

1555
01:26:23,400 --> 01:26:26,200
Speaker 2: is crazy. You know, there's like this a legend. Somebody

1556
01:26:26,200 --> 01:26:28,800
Speaker 2: should fact check this for me. There's a legend that

1557
01:26:29,040 --> 01:26:31,280
Speaker 2: Esquire tried to cut it and that he went into

1558
01:26:31,320 --> 01:26:35,280
Speaker 2: the office himself like during clothes and restored all the cuts.

1559
01:26:35,520 --> 01:26:38,639
Speaker 2: And I want to believe that's true so badly because

1560
01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:41,240
Speaker 2: it is. It's like the biggest like fuck you, like

1561
01:26:41,320 --> 01:26:44,080
Speaker 2: I just love like, you know, no, no, Richar bend Kramer,

1562
01:26:44,080 --> 01:26:48,840
Speaker 2: You're gonna run his whole story. He did you know him?

1563
01:26:48,880 --> 01:26:49,719
Speaker 2: Did you know Richard?

1564
01:26:50,120 --> 01:26:52,600
Speaker 1: I never got to meet him. He was he was

1565
01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:55,599
Speaker 1: not far. He was in Annapolis. I knew he lived

1566
01:26:55,640 --> 01:26:57,879
Speaker 1: in Annapolis. I mean, look, that book was my bible.

1567
01:26:58,160 --> 01:27:02,240
Speaker 1: That's what I I know. And I'll be honest, I

1568
01:27:02,320 --> 01:27:05,760
Speaker 1: actually think it taught us a bad lesson in political journalism.

1569
01:27:06,560 --> 01:27:09,320
Speaker 2: Oh, let's do this. What what lesson did it teach?

1570
01:27:09,720 --> 01:27:13,120
Speaker 1: Well? That that that there is this sort of different kind?

1571
01:27:13,240 --> 01:27:16,000
Speaker 1: I mean it made us. What it did is that

1572
01:27:16,120 --> 01:27:20,559
Speaker 1: it turned us all into pop psychologists as political writers.

1573
01:27:21,000 --> 01:27:22,720
Speaker 1: Get I found what's that?

1574
01:27:22,880 --> 01:27:23,160
Speaker 2: Right?

1575
01:27:23,479 --> 01:27:26,920
Speaker 1: No, because I love I'm obsessed with trying to figure

1576
01:27:26,960 --> 01:27:30,120
Speaker 1: out why do these people think they can be leader

1577
01:27:30,120 --> 01:27:32,920
Speaker 1: of the free world. They look in the mirror and

1578
01:27:32,960 --> 01:27:35,479
Speaker 1: they think I should make the decisions for three hundred

1579
01:27:35,479 --> 01:27:38,280
Speaker 1: and fifty million Americans. I think that is a sickness

1580
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:41,040
Speaker 1: as a part of me that thinks that that's a sickness,

1581
01:27:41,120 --> 01:27:42,120
Speaker 1: It's a total sickness.

1582
01:27:42,120 --> 01:27:44,720
Speaker 2: I mean, the act of warning the job should disqualify

1583
01:27:44,760 --> 01:27:45,360
Speaker 2: you from it.

1584
01:27:45,560 --> 01:27:48,519
Speaker 1: Yes, that's sort of, that's a that's a great you said,

1585
01:27:48,560 --> 01:27:50,320
Speaker 1: this is why you're such a great writer. It's a

1586
01:27:50,320 --> 01:27:54,439
Speaker 1: great way of putting it. And yet you know it

1587
01:27:54,520 --> 01:27:57,840
Speaker 1: is in some ways. He said, you know, look, there's

1588
01:27:57,880 --> 01:28:01,759
Speaker 1: a there is a DNA that's different with a presidential candidate,

1589
01:28:01,960 --> 01:28:05,200
Speaker 1: and here's the failed, failed versions of it. And you

1590
01:28:05,240 --> 01:28:08,160
Speaker 1: will see the successful versions of it over here, or

1591
01:28:08,240 --> 01:28:12,600
Speaker 1: you'll you'll figure out why it is, and I think it.

1592
01:28:13,960 --> 01:28:17,760
Speaker 1: I think it cheap and political reporting. It's not Richard's fault.

1593
01:28:18,360 --> 01:28:23,439
Speaker 1: He did a tremendous service. It's the problem isn't copycatters, right, well,

1594
01:28:23,479 --> 01:28:24,240
Speaker 1: it's like the problem.

1595
01:28:24,400 --> 01:28:26,439
Speaker 2: The problem isn't Richard Van Kramer. It's all the people

1596
01:28:26,479 --> 01:28:29,000
Speaker 2: who tried to do it. The problem isn't Gary Smith.

1597
01:28:29,040 --> 01:28:30,800
Speaker 2: It's all the people who wanted to write and second

1598
01:28:30,840 --> 01:28:33,680
Speaker 2: person to imitate him. The problem isn't Bill Simmons, who

1599
01:28:33,680 --> 01:28:36,000
Speaker 2: does this as an incredibly high level. It's all the

1600
01:28:36,040 --> 01:28:39,320
Speaker 2: people who just think they can riff and like, no,

1601
01:28:39,400 --> 01:28:43,360
Speaker 2: you're exactly right, like the cheap imitations of a high

1602
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:48,639
Speaker 2: wire act always sort of like, you know, culture bending

1603
01:28:48,640 --> 01:28:50,240
Speaker 2: in that way. I mean that you know, well, like what,

1604
01:28:50,360 --> 01:28:52,599
Speaker 2: let me ask you this, like, so, is that book

1605
01:28:52,640 --> 01:28:55,240
Speaker 2: more for you than like the sort of Curtis Wilkie

1606
01:28:55,280 --> 01:28:56,439
Speaker 2: era boys on the bus.

1607
01:28:56,560 --> 01:28:59,720
Speaker 1: Oh it's not even close. Yeah, because you know, and

1608
01:28:59,760 --> 01:29:02,840
Speaker 1: that's and that's sad. And I've now literally gone the

1609
01:29:02,880 --> 01:29:06,880
Speaker 1: other way, meaning like I I call myself now a

1610
01:29:06,920 --> 01:29:10,200
Speaker 1: political anthropologist. I'm more interested in the political tribes of

1611
01:29:10,200 --> 01:29:13,200
Speaker 1: America than the leaders. I don't care about the chiefs.

1612
01:29:13,080 --> 01:29:15,800
Speaker 2: Well, I'm like, you know, one of the interesting things

1613
01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:17,800
Speaker 2: is like, and we could do an entire podcast about this,

1614
01:29:17,880 --> 01:29:20,400
Speaker 2: but like, the idea of the American tribe has been

1615
01:29:20,479 --> 01:29:23,479
Speaker 2: under relentless assault by the left and the right for

1616
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:26,680
Speaker 2: the last thirty years. And if you don't, if you

1617
01:29:26,800 --> 01:29:29,679
Speaker 2: take away people's tribes, they're gonna find a new one

1618
01:29:29,840 --> 01:29:32,680
Speaker 2: and you're probably not gonna like it, and like, you know,

1619
01:29:32,720 --> 01:29:35,080
Speaker 2: and so like, it is interesting the degree to which

1620
01:29:35,120 --> 01:29:38,200
Speaker 2: we are still so in our sort of Foxhole's pointing

1621
01:29:38,240 --> 01:29:41,559
Speaker 2: fingers that people don't realize that, like we're all to

1622
01:29:41,640 --> 01:29:44,360
Speaker 2: a certain degree guilty of Boy, it's should be nice

1623
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:46,479
Speaker 2: to have the founding fathers right now, you know what

1624
01:29:46,479 --> 01:29:49,160
Speaker 2: I mean. Yeah, Like, there's been sort of such a

1625
01:29:49,200 --> 01:29:52,400
Speaker 2: war on the idea of there being an American tribe

1626
01:29:52,840 --> 01:29:55,400
Speaker 2: that I'm not sure there is one anymore. And I'm

1627
01:29:55,400 --> 01:29:57,519
Speaker 2: not entirely sure anybody has an idea of how to

1628
01:29:57,520 --> 01:29:58,360
Speaker 2: build one.

1629
01:29:58,520 --> 01:30:01,080
Speaker 1: There never were, there's been multip tribes. We've been a

1630
01:30:01,120 --> 01:30:06,160
Speaker 1: coalition of It's what makes us look I sort of yeah, yeah, yeah,

1631
01:30:06,200 --> 01:30:08,559
Speaker 1: there's no other country like us that's tried to do

1632
01:30:08,640 --> 01:30:10,799
Speaker 1: this well. And I don't know if we're a success

1633
01:30:10,840 --> 01:30:11,960
Speaker 1: or a failure yet.

1634
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:15,160
Speaker 2: Well, and like you know, I, you know, look, I

1635
01:30:15,160 --> 01:30:17,959
Speaker 2: grew up with you know, my father was a lifelong

1636
01:30:18,000 --> 01:30:20,559
Speaker 2: liberal Democrat who cried every time they played the national

1637
01:30:20,600 --> 01:30:23,120
Speaker 2: anthem at a sporting event, and you know, and so

1638
01:30:23,240 --> 01:30:27,640
Speaker 2: like I very much sort of believe in there is

1639
01:30:27,720 --> 01:30:31,320
Speaker 2: something exceptional about even the attempt of the American experiment.

1640
01:30:31,840 --> 01:30:34,120
Speaker 2: And so it feels like it was out of vogue

1641
01:30:34,280 --> 01:30:36,880
Speaker 2: to sort of traffic and American exceptionalism. And I think

1642
01:30:36,920 --> 01:30:39,519
Speaker 2: that's clearly a mistake, because like, we are trying to

1643
01:30:39,600 --> 01:30:43,200
Speaker 2: do something that is really really hard, and the reason

1644
01:30:43,439 --> 01:30:45,719
Speaker 2: that we keep taking one step forward and two steps

1645
01:30:45,760 --> 01:30:48,559
Speaker 2: back is that it's really hard to take a group

1646
01:30:48,600 --> 01:30:50,320
Speaker 2: of people and turn them into a new trial.

1647
01:30:57,760 --> 01:31:00,960
Speaker 1: Human beings are tribal, very much stuff, right, and so

1648
01:31:01,520 --> 01:31:04,560
Speaker 1: and so we're trying to you know, it is no,

1649
01:31:05,160 --> 01:31:09,680
Speaker 1: it's it gets at I think that why we've are

1650
01:31:09,720 --> 01:31:14,680
Speaker 1: political journalism. You know, you default to looking for the

1651
01:31:13,920 --> 01:31:17,000
Speaker 1: great hope, right. It used to be the great White hope,

1652
01:31:17,040 --> 01:31:19,400
Speaker 1: but now it's just simply the great hope and everybody.

1653
01:31:19,400 --> 01:31:22,559
Speaker 1: And this is in a weird way, what too many

1654
01:31:22,880 --> 01:31:26,760
Speaker 1: young reporters took away from Richard's book right, which was well,

1655
01:31:26,840 --> 01:31:30,240
Speaker 1: let's go find you know, and and frankly, it turns

1656
01:31:30,280 --> 01:31:33,280
Speaker 1: out Milton Friedman had was more accurate about things when

1657
01:31:33,320 --> 01:31:36,800
Speaker 1: he says you can elect bad people or you know,

1658
01:31:36,840 --> 01:31:38,559
Speaker 1: it's not whether you elect good people or bad people,

1659
01:31:38,600 --> 01:31:42,080
Speaker 1: it's whether you have good incentives or bad incentives. And ultimately, like,

1660
01:31:43,760 --> 01:31:46,280
Speaker 1: what makes us different is if we create a structure

1661
01:31:46,640 --> 01:31:49,440
Speaker 1: that allows us to have a certain type of politician.

1662
01:31:50,000 --> 01:31:52,839
Speaker 1: And instead we spent too much time as political reporters

1663
01:31:52,840 --> 01:31:56,000
Speaker 1: for a generation coming at it from that somehow the

1664
01:31:56,040 --> 01:31:59,920
Speaker 1: great leaders created the politics when actually no, it's an

1665
01:32:00,000 --> 01:32:02,200
Speaker 1: it's an entire structure that did it well.

1666
01:32:02,240 --> 01:32:05,080
Speaker 2: And you know, there was the sort of real trauma

1667
01:32:05,160 --> 01:32:08,640
Speaker 2: of World War Two meant that you know, and a

1668
01:32:08,640 --> 01:32:11,479
Speaker 2: lot of people like on a lot of people on

1669
01:32:11,520 --> 01:32:14,320
Speaker 2: both sides like attacked this, which I understand why, but

1670
01:32:14,360 --> 01:32:16,439
Speaker 2: we I think we took it for granted that one

1671
01:32:16,439 --> 01:32:19,559
Speaker 2: of the Trump trauma responses, it's politically, it seems of

1672
01:32:19,600 --> 01:32:21,559
Speaker 2: World War two was of the idea of we could

1673
01:32:21,600 --> 01:32:23,559
Speaker 2: never you know, eighty five million people died, like, we

1674
01:32:23,600 --> 01:32:25,920
Speaker 2: can't do that again, Yeah, let's not do it. Yeah,

1675
01:32:26,080 --> 01:32:30,000
Speaker 2: it was let's prune every extreme. So we're going to

1676
01:32:30,040 --> 01:32:33,519
Speaker 2: govern from here to here, and like that's going to

1677
01:32:33,640 --> 01:32:36,439
Speaker 2: leave a lot of people behind. But that seemed to

1678
01:32:36,439 --> 01:32:40,639
Speaker 2: be a very intentional choice of we cannot let we

1679
01:32:40,680 --> 01:32:41,759
Speaker 2: cannot do that again.

1680
01:32:42,160 --> 01:32:44,280
Speaker 1: So let's it worked until the Berlin Wall fell.

1681
01:32:44,680 --> 01:32:45,120
Speaker 2: That's right.

1682
01:32:46,080 --> 01:32:48,959
Speaker 1: I mean, I look at this and I'm I'm obsessed

1683
01:32:49,000 --> 01:32:51,080
Speaker 1: with this that it turns out the era you and

1684
01:32:51,120 --> 01:32:53,439
Speaker 1: I grew up in might be the outlier era of

1685
01:32:53,439 --> 01:32:54,200
Speaker 1: American history.

1686
01:32:54,640 --> 01:32:57,160
Speaker 2: Well it you know, it certainly feels like a pause

1687
01:32:57,640 --> 01:33:01,840
Speaker 2: that the collective action required to survive the Great Depression,

1688
01:33:02,240 --> 01:33:06,479
Speaker 2: followed by the collective action required to win World War

1689
01:33:06,560 --> 01:33:13,040
Speaker 2: Two and the sort of countrywide pr campaign that had

1690
01:33:13,080 --> 01:33:15,679
Speaker 2: to be waged about the moral reasons for the war

1691
01:33:15,800 --> 01:33:18,120
Speaker 2: to convince people to send their boys to go die

1692
01:33:18,400 --> 01:33:21,559
Speaker 2: in places they'd never been and couldn't pronounce. Like that

1693
01:33:21,680 --> 01:33:25,200
Speaker 2: created a pause in the history of America. People forget

1694
01:33:25,240 --> 01:33:28,400
Speaker 2: like the Harriman family who founded Sun Valley, they were

1695
01:33:28,439 --> 01:33:32,360
Speaker 2: also the primary funders of the was it the Coal

1696
01:33:32,400 --> 01:33:37,880
Speaker 2: Springs Harbor eugenesis eugenics research facility in Long Island, And

1697
01:33:37,920 --> 01:33:43,160
Speaker 2: like you know, Nazi Germany sent lawyers to the University

1698
01:33:43,160 --> 01:33:45,400
Speaker 2: of Arkansas to study Jim Crow Laws to learn how

1699
01:33:45,400 --> 01:33:47,920
Speaker 2: to write the Nuremberg Laws. The head of the Coal

1700
01:33:47,960 --> 01:33:52,880
Speaker 2: Springs Harbor Facility got an honorary doctor from University of

1701
01:33:52,960 --> 01:33:57,799
Speaker 2: Nuremberg in nineteen thirty six. Before Roosevelt and the government

1702
01:33:57,840 --> 01:34:01,360
Speaker 2: could attack fascism in Europe, had to defeat it in America.

1703
01:34:01,439 --> 01:34:03,840
Speaker 2: And it wasn't a slam dunk which way we were

1704
01:34:03,840 --> 01:34:05,800
Speaker 2: going to go. So like to your point, like I

1705
01:34:05,840 --> 01:34:09,160
Speaker 2: do feel like we have a huge pause in what

1706
01:34:09,240 --> 01:34:11,680
Speaker 2: was happening, So like in some ways what's happening now

1707
01:34:11,800 --> 01:34:15,400
Speaker 2: isn't new. We've just gone back to action previously in progress.

1708
01:34:15,800 --> 01:34:19,840
Speaker 1: We're in the nineteenth century again with modern tools. Yeah,

1709
01:34:20,000 --> 01:34:23,000
Speaker 1: and like that's terrifying, because like absolutely terrifying.

1710
01:34:23,040 --> 01:34:25,240
Speaker 2: Yes, you know, and and and you know and like

1711
01:34:25,400 --> 01:34:27,639
Speaker 2: you know, like Obama made that funny joke when the

1712
01:34:27,760 --> 01:34:30,280
Speaker 2: Jonas brothers were at the White House because you know,

1713
01:34:30,400 --> 01:34:32,680
Speaker 2: his daughters had crushes on him and he was like, uh,

1714
01:34:33,160 --> 01:34:36,479
Speaker 2: you know, I got two words boys, predator, drones, and

1715
01:34:36,520 --> 01:34:38,960
Speaker 2: like it was funny, but it's also you know, not funny.

1716
01:34:39,560 --> 01:34:42,800
Speaker 1: Oh you want to talk about I had Dexter Filkinson

1717
01:34:42,920 --> 01:34:44,120
Speaker 1: recently and me too.

1718
01:34:44,640 --> 01:34:48,280
Speaker 2: The Forever War is my favorite war book not named

1719
01:34:48,320 --> 01:34:49,240
Speaker 2: the things they carried.

1720
01:34:49,920 --> 01:34:56,120
Speaker 1: He he went into Ukraine recently, and warfare is changing

1721
01:34:56,160 --> 01:34:58,320
Speaker 1: before our eyes and I don't think people understand it.

1722
01:34:58,520 --> 01:35:02,679
Speaker 2: The drones so new person. Yeah, I was in Ukraine

1723
01:35:02,680 --> 01:35:04,639
Speaker 2: twice in the first year of the war, and it's

1724
01:35:04,680 --> 01:35:06,880
Speaker 2: like the drones, man, it's not it's not be fifty

1725
01:35:06,880 --> 01:35:10,040
Speaker 2: two's you can't see. And it's like, you know, if

1726
01:35:10,080 --> 01:35:13,640
Speaker 2: you're seeing a video of the drone finding Drake on

1727
01:35:13,640 --> 01:35:17,120
Speaker 2: this outdoor patio and playing the Kendrick Lamar song and

1728
01:35:17,080 --> 01:35:19,920
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm like, dude, nobody's safe. Like you know,

1729
01:35:19,960 --> 01:35:21,760
Speaker 2: these things are terrifying.

1730
01:35:22,160 --> 01:35:25,400
Speaker 1: And this is coming and this is this is an

1731
01:35:25,439 --> 01:35:28,920
Speaker 1: age that I don't think we're fully well.

1732
01:35:28,360 --> 01:35:31,720
Speaker 2: It'll be war without myth and war without heroism and

1733
01:35:31,760 --> 01:35:35,080
Speaker 2: war without sacrifice and like in some way and scare.

1734
01:35:35,120 --> 01:35:38,479
Speaker 1: I mean, if you don't have the human element, what

1735
01:35:38,840 --> 01:35:41,559
Speaker 1: you know, does if war is easier to wage without

1736
01:35:42,080 --> 01:35:45,120
Speaker 1: risking lives, are we going to pre perpetually a war?

1737
01:35:45,920 --> 01:35:48,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's terrifying and you know, and like but

1738
01:35:48,680 --> 01:35:52,200
Speaker 2: like you see, I love the political anthropologist is a

1739
01:35:52,200 --> 01:35:55,120
Speaker 2: really interesting way to describe it, because I don't I

1740
01:35:55,160 --> 01:35:57,800
Speaker 2: don't think anybody has any idea what we're going to

1741
01:35:57,880 --> 01:36:00,360
Speaker 2: look like in ten years, during fifteen years or twenty

1742
01:36:00,439 --> 01:36:02,760
Speaker 2: And I feel like anybody who says they do, if

1743
01:36:02,760 --> 01:36:06,200
Speaker 2: you really knew, you would be running a campaign like you,

1744
01:36:06,439 --> 01:36:08,080
Speaker 2: if you really knew, you'd be Josh Lyman.

1745
01:36:08,280 --> 01:36:10,320
Speaker 1: You know, I know what I want to see happen.

1746
01:36:10,400 --> 01:36:12,479
Speaker 1: I'd love to see a lot of things happen. I

1747
01:36:12,520 --> 01:36:14,840
Speaker 1: just don't know whether we're capable of it.

1748
01:36:15,880 --> 01:36:19,880
Speaker 2: I hope so, because I genuinely, like, I genuinely believe

1749
01:36:20,240 --> 01:36:24,439
Speaker 2: that that what most people want is to raise their

1750
01:36:24,560 --> 01:36:28,040
Speaker 2: kids and to save some money for retirement, and to

1751
01:36:28,080 --> 01:36:30,599
Speaker 2: be to be around their parents and to be around

1752
01:36:30,640 --> 01:36:35,000
Speaker 2: their friends, and to like, you know, have a normal Thanksgiving,

1753
01:36:35,560 --> 01:36:37,880
Speaker 2: And like, I like, there has to be at some

1754
01:36:38,040 --> 01:36:41,679
Speaker 2: point everybody's got to put their guns down, right, like,

1755
01:36:41,880 --> 01:36:43,800
Speaker 2: And so I don't know what the moment will be,

1756
01:36:44,320 --> 01:36:47,479
Speaker 2: but I do. You talked about your hope earlier that

1757
01:36:47,520 --> 01:36:49,799
Speaker 2: like if all these people who remember this are gone,

1758
01:36:49,920 --> 01:36:51,840
Speaker 2: I mean, like my thing that I really hope for

1759
01:36:51,920 --> 01:36:55,840
Speaker 2: that might be totally naive is that America longs for

1760
01:36:55,880 --> 01:36:59,120
Speaker 2: a kind of radical cynerism. And I like, a a like,

1761
01:36:59,240 --> 01:37:02,000
Speaker 2: we got to stop screaming at each other and realize

1762
01:37:02,040 --> 01:37:05,320
Speaker 2: that the problem isn't somebody who disagrees with you. The

1763
01:37:05,400 --> 01:37:08,679
Speaker 2: problem is it's the algorithm. The problem is the entire

1764
01:37:08,920 --> 01:37:11,920
Speaker 2: nature of the structure of the debate. And if like

1765
01:37:12,040 --> 01:37:14,320
Speaker 2: the story I like to tell is, my wife's grandfather

1766
01:37:14,520 --> 01:37:16,960
Speaker 2: was a German prisoner of war, and staal aloof III,

1767
01:37:17,040 --> 01:37:19,160
Speaker 2: which is the prisoner of war, cam up from the

1768
01:37:19,160 --> 01:37:23,439
Speaker 2: Great Escape, and so you know, they had these reunions,

1769
01:37:23,479 --> 01:37:24,920
Speaker 2: and I went to them, and then you know, it'd

1770
01:37:24,960 --> 01:37:26,600
Speaker 2: be all these old men who show up at a

1771
01:37:26,760 --> 01:37:29,960
Speaker 2: Marriott and Cincinnati or somewhere, and they'd sit around and

1772
01:37:29,960 --> 01:37:32,519
Speaker 2: tell stories. But the craziest thing happened the very end

1773
01:37:32,560 --> 01:37:35,960
Speaker 2: of their lives. They started inviting their German guards, who

1774
01:37:35,960 --> 01:37:38,840
Speaker 2: would show up with their families and their children and

1775
01:37:38,880 --> 01:37:41,800
Speaker 2: their grandchildren. And they would be all these old men

1776
01:37:41,920 --> 01:37:45,000
Speaker 2: who didn't see each other as enemies. They saw themselves

1777
01:37:45,080 --> 01:37:48,320
Speaker 2: as allies, and the enemy was war itself. And like,

1778
01:37:48,640 --> 01:37:51,120
Speaker 2: you do get the sense that when you, when people

1779
01:37:51,160 --> 01:37:56,200
Speaker 2: with wisdom are thinking about these conflicts, that like people

1780
01:37:56,200 --> 01:38:00,000
Speaker 2: are desperate for for your enemy to not be your

1781
01:38:00,040 --> 01:38:01,080
Speaker 2: fellow citizen, but for your.

1782
01:38:00,960 --> 01:38:02,920
Speaker 1: Well, we we're sort of seeing that now at the

1783
01:38:03,000 --> 01:38:06,040
Speaker 1: Vietnam generation, right, you're seeing more soldiers wanting to meet,

1784
01:38:06,680 --> 01:38:09,960
Speaker 1: wanting to you see those types of reunions with Vietnam

1785
01:38:10,000 --> 01:38:11,360
Speaker 1: as well, where you'll have.

1786
01:38:11,400 --> 01:38:13,439
Speaker 2: And one hundred percent and like there are a lot

1787
01:38:13,439 --> 01:38:18,840
Speaker 2: of soldiers who go back. You know, I this terrifying thing.

1788
01:38:18,880 --> 01:38:23,560
Speaker 2: A friend of mine, Ken Moorefield, who was literally on

1789
01:38:23,600 --> 01:38:25,360
Speaker 2: the last helicopter out of saw I got in nineteen

1790
01:38:25,360 --> 01:38:28,320
Speaker 2: seventy five, he physically put the ambassador on the next

1791
01:38:28,360 --> 01:38:30,599
Speaker 2: to last helicopter and he was on the last one.

1792
01:38:30,880 --> 01:38:33,320
Speaker 2: And he was a tet offensive as like a like

1793
01:38:33,360 --> 01:38:34,960
Speaker 2: I think a company I think he was a captain,

1794
01:38:34,960 --> 01:38:37,760
Speaker 2: will make him a company commander. And he went back

1795
01:38:37,760 --> 01:38:41,280
Speaker 2: to that battlefield with the opposing commander. In the nineties

1796
01:38:41,320 --> 01:38:43,120
Speaker 2: when he went he worked for the Clinton administration and

1797
01:38:43,160 --> 01:38:45,800
Speaker 2: went back to Vietnam and the State Department, and that

1798
01:38:45,840 --> 01:38:48,960
Speaker 2: guy walked him around the battlefield and he described he

1799
01:38:49,040 --> 01:38:51,519
Speaker 2: realized how little they knew about where the enemy was

1800
01:38:51,640 --> 01:38:53,400
Speaker 2: and what they were trying to do, and he was

1801
01:38:53,439 --> 01:38:55,599
Speaker 2: just like, man, it's a miracle any of us lived.

1802
01:38:55,800 --> 01:38:58,080
Speaker 2: Because he was like, he was showing me where they

1803
01:38:58,120 --> 01:39:00,519
Speaker 2: were and that is not where we had and told

1804
01:39:00,520 --> 01:39:02,559
Speaker 2: they were, and he was just like and it was

1805
01:39:02,680 --> 01:39:06,240
Speaker 2: terrifying to sort of to go back as an old

1806
01:39:06,280 --> 01:39:09,200
Speaker 2: man and see it and be right. I mean it.

1807
01:39:09,720 --> 01:39:11,760
Speaker 2: You know. The hope is that people realize that the

1808
01:39:11,800 --> 01:39:13,960
Speaker 2: algorithm is the enemy, and it's not somebody who.

1809
01:39:13,880 --> 01:39:17,479
Speaker 1: Discounts it is. It is what I ran about the most.

1810
01:39:17,600 --> 01:39:20,960
Speaker 1: I mean, the fact is the founders created a constitution

1811
01:39:21,040 --> 01:39:23,559
Speaker 1: that was all about a compromise that the whole point

1812
01:39:23,840 --> 01:39:27,360
Speaker 1: was to constantly realize, if you're going to put a

1813
01:39:27,400 --> 01:39:31,080
Speaker 1: bunch of tribes that don't normally govern together to govern together,

1814
01:39:31,479 --> 01:39:36,320
Speaker 1: you're gonna nobody gets to nobody gets their way. Yeah no,

1815
01:39:36,400 --> 01:39:39,879
Speaker 1: and and like so like, you know, that's the radical

1816
01:39:39,960 --> 01:39:42,679
Speaker 1: quote unquote centrism. Like I got called a radical centrist

1817
01:39:42,720 --> 01:39:45,679
Speaker 1: ones and I thought, well, that's a huge storm. I'm

1818
01:39:45,720 --> 01:39:48,439
Speaker 1: just an incrementalist. It said, I don't believe you can

1819
01:39:48,479 --> 01:39:50,920
Speaker 1: move three hundred and fifty million people by leaping a

1820
01:39:50,920 --> 01:39:53,439
Speaker 1: foot ahead. You've got to go a centimeter at the time.

1821
01:39:53,840 --> 01:39:56,880
Speaker 2: And you know, it's like I do obviously acknowledge the

1822
01:39:56,920 --> 01:40:01,160
Speaker 2: fact that that you know, it is cruel to ask

1823
01:40:01,200 --> 01:40:04,240
Speaker 2: people who've waited for so long to keep waiting. You know,

1824
01:40:04,280 --> 01:40:06,600
Speaker 2: it's the idea of the dream deferred is like.

1825
01:40:06,720 --> 01:40:09,479
Speaker 1: Well, like civil unions versus same sex marriage. But guess what,

1826
01:40:09,520 --> 01:40:11,760
Speaker 1: you weren't going to get same sex marriage without first

1827
01:40:11,760 --> 01:40:12,880
Speaker 1: getting civil unions.

1828
01:40:13,240 --> 01:40:16,639
Speaker 2: And you know it also like you know, I remember

1829
01:40:16,680 --> 01:40:18,960
Speaker 2: Obama couldn't admit he was in favor of getting like

1830
01:40:19,040 --> 01:40:21,639
Speaker 2: that's not that long ago, and so like you.

1831
01:40:21,720 --> 01:40:24,680
Speaker 1: Just this century, you know, this was this was the

1832
01:40:24,720 --> 01:40:25,800
Speaker 1: twenty first century.

1833
01:40:26,000 --> 01:40:28,519
Speaker 2: I know the uh so, if Trump runs again, can

1834
01:40:28,560 --> 01:40:30,040
Speaker 2: Obama run again? Well?

1835
01:40:30,080 --> 01:40:31,880
Speaker 1: See that to me is the great way to stop

1836
01:40:31,960 --> 01:40:35,160
Speaker 1: him from running. I've always I've always thought that the

1837
01:40:35,240 --> 01:40:37,760
Speaker 1: liberals ont a wink and just say, okay, you do

1838
01:40:37,920 --> 01:40:39,720
Speaker 1: know that if you get a third, if you get

1839
01:40:39,720 --> 01:40:42,800
Speaker 1: to run again, they Obama gets to run again.

1840
01:40:43,040 --> 01:40:43,400
Speaker 2: How's that?

1841
01:40:43,479 --> 01:40:45,720
Speaker 1: R and I one could argue, it's sort of like

1842
01:40:46,040 --> 01:40:50,400
Speaker 1: oballa I love about sports. Argument. Right, Let's see, you know,

1843
01:40:50,560 --> 01:40:54,280
Speaker 1: let's see the Lebron Miami Heat play the Michael Jordan,

1844
01:40:54,600 --> 01:40:58,080
Speaker 1: you know, ninety two team. Let's see the Lakers. If

1845
01:40:58,200 --> 01:41:01,800
Speaker 1: Magic doesn't get HIV, play Jordan and see who gets

1846
01:41:01,880 --> 01:41:04,840
Speaker 1: you know my favorite. You know, the point is, maybe

1847
01:41:04,880 --> 01:41:08,720
Speaker 1: Obama v. Trump is the cultural showdown this country needs.

1848
01:41:09,400 --> 01:41:11,200
Speaker 2: I mean, do you think that all of this started

1849
01:41:11,200 --> 01:41:15,400
Speaker 2: when Obama said at the White House Correspondence Center said.

1850
01:41:15,320 --> 01:41:17,880
Speaker 1: Uh uh, humiliated him.

1851
01:41:17,960 --> 01:41:20,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I said, you know, Donald Trump says, I'll

1852
01:41:20,240 --> 01:41:22,479
Speaker 2: go down as the work's president history. At least I'll

1853
01:41:22,520 --> 01:41:27,120
Speaker 2: go down as president huh did in his anger translator,

1854
01:41:27,120 --> 01:41:28,599
Speaker 2: didn't he like name drop you?

1855
01:41:28,840 --> 01:41:32,120
Speaker 1: I think, Oh I've yeah, I've got I got all.

1856
01:41:32,720 --> 01:41:34,479
Speaker 1: That's just no, I've gotten a few of those. But

1857
01:41:34,560 --> 01:41:40,759
Speaker 1: you know what, Trump, I'm convinced that. And the reason

1858
01:41:40,920 --> 01:41:42,920
Speaker 1: I'm convinced, I'm convinced he never thought he was going

1859
01:41:43,000 --> 01:41:44,960
Speaker 1: to be president, and he never really wanted the job.

1860
01:41:45,000 --> 01:41:48,600
Speaker 1: What he wanted was the recognition, and he wanted to

1861
01:41:48,640 --> 01:41:51,719
Speaker 1: get to where he got, which was that nomination proved

1862
01:41:51,720 --> 01:41:53,960
Speaker 1: that he could do it. Because the fact that he

1863
01:41:54,000 --> 01:41:56,599
Speaker 1: didn't have a victory speech written, the fact that they

1864
01:41:56,600 --> 01:42:00,080
Speaker 1: were shocked they actually won, is to me the tell

1865
01:42:00,120 --> 01:42:02,680
Speaker 1: of oh god, I've got it. And my favorite, my

1866
01:42:02,760 --> 01:42:05,439
Speaker 1: favorite anecdote that never has gotten a lot of attention

1867
01:42:05,680 --> 01:42:09,000
Speaker 1: is when Trump met with Obama after he's president elect

1868
01:42:09,320 --> 01:42:14,479
Speaker 1: and Obama's hosting him, and Trump says he learns in

1869
01:42:14,520 --> 01:42:17,080
Speaker 1: that moment that the White House staff doesn't come with

1870
01:42:17,200 --> 01:42:20,000
Speaker 1: the White House. Like he knew that there was a

1871
01:42:20,040 --> 01:42:22,800
Speaker 1: residential staff, but he thought that the people that worked

1872
01:42:22,800 --> 01:42:24,280
Speaker 1: in the West wing. You know, that this was like

1873
01:42:24,320 --> 01:42:28,920
Speaker 1: a corporate takeover, and the employees of Barack Obama would

1874
01:42:28,960 --> 01:42:31,280
Speaker 1: then become on January twenty at the employees of him.

1875
01:42:31,600 --> 01:42:35,200
Speaker 1: And then somebody told him, no, you've got to hire

1876
01:42:35,240 --> 01:42:38,320
Speaker 1: all that anyway. Oh my god, Like that's when it

1877
01:42:38,360 --> 01:42:41,439
Speaker 1: would hit him that suddenly he didn't have a network

1878
01:42:41,479 --> 01:42:43,360
Speaker 1: of people. He's never had a network of people. He

1879
01:42:43,439 --> 01:42:46,439
Speaker 1: only surrounds himself with four to six people that will

1880
01:42:46,439 --> 01:42:49,240
Speaker 1: suck up to him until that relationship deteriorates and he

1881
01:42:49,520 --> 01:42:52,120
Speaker 1: then moves on. He never has the same eight people

1882
01:42:52,160 --> 01:42:54,120
Speaker 1: for an eight year span, but he is the same.

1883
01:42:54,479 --> 01:42:58,559
Speaker 1: But he always has a circle around him. And that's

1884
01:42:58,560 --> 01:43:01,000
Speaker 1: why I'm convinced he never actually won it. He wanted

1885
01:43:01,360 --> 01:43:03,680
Speaker 1: the idea of the presidency, he wanted a profit off

1886
01:43:03,680 --> 01:43:06,040
Speaker 1: of it, all of those things. He didn't want to

1887
01:43:06,040 --> 01:43:07,160
Speaker 1: actually have to do the job.

1888
01:43:07,760 --> 01:43:10,240
Speaker 2: Well you know, I mean the job is it's the

1889
01:43:10,320 --> 01:43:15,000
Speaker 2: impossible job. Like, you know, it was either Obama or book.

1890
01:43:15,040 --> 01:43:16,960
Speaker 2: Somebody said, like, by the time the problem gets to

1891
01:43:16,960 --> 01:43:18,799
Speaker 2: the president, there are no good options.

1892
01:43:19,080 --> 01:43:19,599
Speaker 1: They're all bad.

1893
01:43:20,160 --> 01:43:22,880
Speaker 2: Like everything, if it's that complex that it gets to

1894
01:43:22,920 --> 01:43:27,320
Speaker 2: your desk, everything is a bad option. I would like

1895
01:43:27,800 --> 01:43:30,240
Speaker 2: it would be terrifying to wake up and be president.

1896
01:43:31,160 --> 01:43:33,280
Speaker 1: No, and you would and the idea that one person,

1897
01:43:33,720 --> 01:43:37,000
Speaker 1: you know, frankly, it probably should be a committee of

1898
01:43:37,040 --> 01:43:39,439
Speaker 1: people are doing these things.

1899
01:43:39,439 --> 01:43:42,160
Speaker 2: But or just like just if we could just put

1900
01:43:42,160 --> 01:43:44,200
Speaker 2: the people in charge of Chick fil A in charge

1901
01:43:44,240 --> 01:43:47,760
Speaker 2: of everything or waffle House Joe Rogers to just run

1902
01:43:47,800 --> 01:43:52,599
Speaker 2: the country like like like you know, like the like

1903
01:43:52,640 --> 01:43:54,240
Speaker 2: every time I go into waffle House, I'm like, this

1904
01:43:54,280 --> 01:43:56,320
Speaker 2: is the greatest, Like can they just be in charge

1905
01:43:56,360 --> 01:43:56,879
Speaker 2: of everything?

1906
01:43:57,640 --> 01:44:00,720
Speaker 1: Their logistics are fantastic, it's all believed. I mean, it's

1907
01:44:00,720 --> 01:44:04,080
Speaker 1: all very good. Hey, natural disasters come. Waffle House is

1908
01:44:04,120 --> 01:44:06,840
Speaker 1: a comm shop is pretty good. Well.

1909
01:44:06,880 --> 01:44:09,360
Speaker 2: That and the thing about Chick fil A that I

1910
01:44:09,400 --> 01:44:13,919
Speaker 2: would love to know is that they don't the pickles

1911
01:44:13,920 --> 01:44:17,200
Speaker 2: are never slimy, and so I'm.

1912
01:44:17,080 --> 01:44:18,120
Speaker 1: Curious how do they do that?

1913
01:44:18,439 --> 01:44:20,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would just like to know, like what is

1914
01:44:20,320 --> 01:44:24,479
Speaker 2: that like? And why what's the difference between McDonald's pickles

1915
01:44:24,760 --> 01:44:27,360
Speaker 2: and Chick fil a pickles? Because there's a there's some

1916
01:44:27,439 --> 01:44:30,479
Speaker 2: sort of something in the process where someone who's decided

1917
01:44:30,520 --> 01:44:32,760
Speaker 2: that we care about pickles, and I just would like

1918
01:44:32,840 --> 01:44:35,080
Speaker 2: to know how you go from being a guy in

1919
01:44:35,120 --> 01:44:38,880
Speaker 2: a room who cares about pickles to actually manifesting that

1920
01:44:38,960 --> 01:44:39,599
Speaker 2: at scale.

1921
01:44:41,360 --> 01:44:45,360
Speaker 1: Well, you got to Todd that that's a fair point.

1922
01:44:45,360 --> 01:44:46,720
Speaker 1: All right, let me get you out of here on this.

1923
01:44:46,800 --> 01:44:50,120
Speaker 1: I got to ask you one sport. Who's somebody you

1924
01:44:50,160 --> 01:44:52,880
Speaker 1: haven't profiled right now in sports that you'd like to

1925
01:44:53,040 --> 01:44:56,599
Speaker 1: but you can't break through. And if they won't give you,

1926
01:44:56,880 --> 01:44:59,200
Speaker 1: I assume you don't get a certain amount of access,

1927
01:44:59,240 --> 01:45:00,719
Speaker 1: you won't write about well.

1928
01:45:00,800 --> 01:45:03,559
Speaker 2: I mean sometimes you can, but sometimes it's just the

1929
01:45:03,600 --> 01:45:06,000
Speaker 2: doughnut hole. Like if you don't have access to the

1930
01:45:06,080 --> 01:45:09,920
Speaker 2: sort of someone's interior monologue, it feels still born. I mean,

1931
01:45:10,320 --> 01:45:18,360
Speaker 2: you know, like Sandy Kofax, who promised.

1932
01:45:17,960 --> 01:45:20,840
Speaker 1: Please, what's Jane, what's your last Jamie?

1933
01:45:21,040 --> 01:45:22,840
Speaker 2: Jane Levy? Jane Levy's talking.

1934
01:45:22,920 --> 01:45:25,760
Speaker 1: That book is amazing because of how hard it was

1935
01:45:25,800 --> 01:45:29,000
Speaker 1: to break. I mean, you're right, Sandy Kofax is still

1936
01:45:29,040 --> 01:45:31,760
Speaker 1: the most anonymous famous person alive in baseball right now.

1937
01:45:32,000 --> 01:45:35,040
Speaker 2: So I text with him a little and because I

1938
01:45:35,080 --> 01:45:36,559
Speaker 2: tried to get him to for a story when he

1939
01:45:36,600 --> 01:45:39,599
Speaker 2: was turning ninety, and he has promised me, Sandy, if

1940
01:45:39,600 --> 01:45:41,360
Speaker 2: you're listening, I'm going to hold you to your word.

1941
01:45:41,640 --> 01:45:43,799
Speaker 2: He has promised me that if he lives to one hundred,

1942
01:45:44,160 --> 01:45:46,160
Speaker 2: he will let me come spend a bunch of time

1943
01:45:46,160 --> 01:45:46,439
Speaker 2: with him.

1944
01:45:46,560 --> 01:45:48,760
Speaker 1: So, I mean, he's he's one of those. I had

1945
01:45:48,800 --> 01:45:51,799
Speaker 1: an uncle who we all knew there was some hidden story.

1946
01:45:51,800 --> 01:45:54,000
Speaker 1: We just didn't know what the story was, and we

1947
01:45:54,000 --> 01:45:55,960
Speaker 1: didn't get it until he died and it turned out

1948
01:45:56,000 --> 01:45:59,240
Speaker 1: he was secretly married to a black woman and he

1949
01:45:59,280 --> 01:46:01,599
Speaker 1: didn't think his family could handle it. And it was

1950
01:46:02,120 --> 01:46:05,840
Speaker 1: this is nineteen eighty five. It's it's sort of and

1951
01:46:05,880 --> 01:46:08,280
Speaker 1: they were always speculation in my family. Oh maybe he's

1952
01:46:08,400 --> 01:46:10,720
Speaker 1: closet a gay, Maybe he's this, maybe he's that. There

1953
01:46:10,760 --> 01:46:13,280
Speaker 1: was just like he's just hiding something he thinks the

1954
01:46:13,320 --> 01:46:17,639
Speaker 1: family doesn't want to know or whatever. And it's there's

1955
01:46:18,280 --> 01:46:21,040
Speaker 1: it's always been interesting to me. You know, we're going

1956
01:46:21,080 --> 01:46:24,519
Speaker 1: to learn something about why he always kept to himself

1957
01:46:24,560 --> 01:46:28,160
Speaker 1: the most right. But he is probably I mean, he's

1958
01:46:28,160 --> 01:46:32,680
Speaker 1: so important to Jewish Americans. Oh, it's incredible, and you know,

1959
01:46:33,200 --> 01:46:36,840
Speaker 1: I it looked, you know, we joke at as Jews joke, right,

1960
01:46:36,880 --> 01:46:39,120
Speaker 1: he's he's He's on the cover of the pamphlet of

1961
01:46:39,160 --> 01:46:40,400
Speaker 1: Greatest Well Jewish.

1962
01:46:40,880 --> 01:46:43,479
Speaker 2: It's like, what's the thing from Lebowski. It's like two

1963
01:46:43,520 --> 01:46:46,519
Speaker 2: thousand years from Moses to Sandy Kofax. You got damn right,

1964
01:46:46,560 --> 01:46:49,200
Speaker 2: I'm living in the past, Like do you know what

1965
01:46:49,240 --> 01:46:51,519
Speaker 2: I mean? Like, yes, you know? And then you know,

1966
01:46:51,760 --> 01:46:56,240
Speaker 2: I'm really interested in Lebron because like Lebron's school, an

1967
01:46:56,240 --> 01:47:00,599
Speaker 2: Acrid is the real thing, and Lebron has over and

1968
01:47:00,640 --> 01:47:04,400
Speaker 2: over and over had great cost to his own sort

1969
01:47:04,400 --> 01:47:07,960
Speaker 2: of piggy bank of adulation, yea, like spoken up for

1970
01:47:08,040 --> 01:47:11,000
Speaker 2: the things that matter to him and like just you know,

1971
01:47:11,240 --> 01:47:12,559
Speaker 2: a lot of respect for Lebron.

1972
01:47:12,640 --> 01:47:15,960
Speaker 1: Oh, I I find I think Lebron is so under

1973
01:47:16,760 --> 01:47:20,840
Speaker 1: appreciated because look what we've done to him. Oh and

1974
01:47:20,880 --> 01:47:23,560
Speaker 1: he I mean what Sports Illustrated putting him on the

1975
01:47:23,560 --> 01:47:26,640
Speaker 1: cover at fourteen or fifteen and he actually lived up

1976
01:47:26,680 --> 01:47:30,599
Speaker 1: to the expectations. Who does that? And Lebron James And

1977
01:47:30,640 --> 01:47:31,040
Speaker 1: that's it.

1978
01:47:31,479 --> 01:47:36,760
Speaker 2: And also it's the list somebody with no like he's

1979
01:47:36,800 --> 01:47:41,600
Speaker 2: an incredible dad and like he's a really like I

1980
01:47:41,600 --> 01:47:43,600
Speaker 2: don't know, like in some ways, like that's all you

1981
01:47:43,600 --> 01:47:46,880
Speaker 2: could really want, Like you're if you had a son,

1982
01:47:46,920 --> 01:47:48,200
Speaker 2: you would be like, I hope he turns out.

1983
01:47:48,240 --> 01:47:50,160
Speaker 1: We always want our sports figures. We always say, are

1984
01:47:50,200 --> 01:47:53,120
Speaker 1: they good family people? Lebron's And you know, you never

1985
01:47:53,160 --> 01:47:56,000
Speaker 1: have with Lebron some story about him gallivanting out late

1986
01:47:56,040 --> 01:47:58,719
Speaker 1: at night. You know, I've never heard.

1987
01:47:58,560 --> 01:48:01,240
Speaker 2: Any, but you know it's a funny. Michael Jordan one

1988
01:48:01,280 --> 01:48:04,240
Speaker 2: time held up his cell phone and said, I'm glad

1989
01:48:04,280 --> 01:48:07,680
Speaker 2: we didn't have these in nineteen ninety three. He's like,

1990
01:48:08,120 --> 01:48:10,400
Speaker 2: I might have had any one of them, Tiger Wood situations,

1991
01:48:12,080 --> 01:48:15,600
Speaker 2: the but like, you know, like I would love to

1992
01:48:15,640 --> 01:48:19,320
Speaker 2: profile Lebron, you know, because I'm a baseball like I'm

1993
01:48:19,320 --> 01:48:24,439
Speaker 2: a little I'm into sort of Mike Trout. But I can't.

1994
01:48:24,439 --> 01:48:26,400
Speaker 2: I can't tell if that's just because he doesn't talk,

1995
01:48:26,840 --> 01:48:29,840
Speaker 2: like you know, just because just because they're private doesn't

1996
01:48:29,840 --> 01:48:30,599
Speaker 2: mean they're interesting.

1997
01:48:31,680 --> 01:48:34,200
Speaker 1: That's fair. Well, you finally got each yi road to talk.

1998
01:48:34,240 --> 01:48:35,599
Speaker 1: What took him so long to share?

1999
01:48:36,720 --> 01:48:38,760
Speaker 2: Well, he wouldn't talk to me. I just followed him

2000
01:48:38,760 --> 01:48:39,439
Speaker 2: around Japan.

2001
01:48:41,080 --> 01:48:44,000
Speaker 1: He didn't. I thought he did eventually talk.

2002
01:48:44,320 --> 01:48:46,920
Speaker 2: No, I just knew where he would be at all times.

2003
01:48:46,600 --> 01:48:50,120
Speaker 1: Because you know, interesting the uh, but I was such

2004
01:48:50,160 --> 01:48:52,519
Speaker 1: a fascinating look. I I certainly felt like you you

2005
01:48:52,800 --> 01:48:55,519
Speaker 1: always told me something about him that I didn't know, Like.

2006
01:48:55,439 --> 01:48:57,640
Speaker 2: I talked to you know, it'd be easier just to

2007
01:48:57,680 --> 01:48:59,599
Speaker 2: talk to him, but said, you have to go talk

2008
01:48:59,640 --> 01:49:01,200
Speaker 2: to like eight hundred other people.

2009
01:49:03,600 --> 01:49:05,840
Speaker 1: Well, show Hayes another one, none of it. Nobody knows

2010
01:49:05,880 --> 01:49:06,479
Speaker 1: anything about him.

2011
01:49:06,920 --> 01:49:11,000
Speaker 2: No, And like Mookie Betts was just on All the

2012
01:49:11,080 --> 01:49:14,720
Speaker 2: Smoke talking about him, and it was just basically saying

2013
01:49:14,720 --> 01:49:17,479
Speaker 2: the same thing, like game ends and he leaves. I'm

2014
01:49:17,479 --> 01:49:20,360
Speaker 2: also like, I think the greatest piece of American media

2015
01:49:20,560 --> 01:49:23,080
Speaker 2: is All the Smoke. I love that podcast. I don't

2016
01:49:23,080 --> 01:49:25,280
Speaker 2: know if you listened to that, but it's really well

2017
01:49:25,320 --> 01:49:29,280
Speaker 2: not enough, dude. They get people to say unbelievable stuff

2018
01:49:29,920 --> 01:49:33,880
Speaker 2: like they are like really really good interviewers because people

2019
01:49:33,920 --> 01:49:35,320
Speaker 2: say crazy shit to them.

2020
01:49:36,479 --> 01:49:38,920
Speaker 1: Well, it's my reason why I love the podcast format.

2021
01:49:39,000 --> 01:49:41,320
Speaker 1: I do think the longer you go in an interview

2022
01:49:42,400 --> 01:49:45,240
Speaker 1: that you know, you can only stay on message for

2023
01:49:45,320 --> 01:49:47,599
Speaker 1: ten or fifty Look, I've learned this. This is this

2024
01:49:47,760 --> 01:49:50,920
Speaker 1: was the flaw of the Sunday Show. The Sunday Shows

2025
01:49:50,960 --> 01:49:53,280
Speaker 1: worked when they were thirty to forty five minute interviews

2026
01:49:53,479 --> 01:49:56,680
Speaker 1: when they started to get truncated, and unfortunately I was

2027
01:49:57,640 --> 01:50:00,240
Speaker 1: in the era where I was getting this pressure, no, no, no,

2028
01:50:00,400 --> 01:50:02,519
Speaker 1: you need more people on and all this, and you know,

2029
01:50:03,760 --> 01:50:08,479
Speaker 1: you realize everybody figured everybody. It's like analytics and baseball

2030
01:50:08,760 --> 01:50:12,040
Speaker 1: at the peak horrible part of baseball. Everybody's figured out

2031
01:50:12,040 --> 01:50:14,000
Speaker 1: how to hack the Sunday Show interview as long as

2032
01:50:14,000 --> 01:50:17,800
Speaker 1: it's less than ten minutes. Now after ten minutes, it's like,

2033
01:50:17,840 --> 01:50:20,360
Speaker 1: there's there's a character of Will Ferrell. You know, if

2034
01:50:20,360 --> 01:50:22,280
Speaker 1: you ask them that question in some movie. I think

2035
01:50:22,280 --> 01:50:24,719
Speaker 1: it's Austin Powers, where if you ask them a question

2036
01:50:24,800 --> 01:50:26,839
Speaker 1: three times, the third time you ask them, he actually

2037
01:50:26,840 --> 01:50:29,200
Speaker 1: has to answer the truth. I think is like the character,

2038
01:50:30,439 --> 01:50:32,840
Speaker 1: it's like a shtick thing. But I actually believe that

2039
01:50:32,840 --> 01:50:37,080
Speaker 1: that once you there's a like the human brain can

2040
01:50:37,640 --> 01:50:40,360
Speaker 1: sort of stick to a script only for so long.

2041
01:50:41,000 --> 01:50:44,679
Speaker 1: And why the podcast format has turned into a better

2042
01:50:44,720 --> 01:50:49,080
Speaker 1: way to talk to people because it's essentially it's taken

2043
01:50:49,120 --> 01:50:51,679
Speaker 1: the magazine piece and turned it into an oral history.

2044
01:50:52,080 --> 01:50:56,240
Speaker 2: Well, you know, and I'm sitting at a picnic table

2045
01:50:56,920 --> 01:51:00,360
Speaker 2: in Los Angeles on my laptop in this is the

2046
01:51:00,439 --> 01:51:03,559
Speaker 2: exact window that all my work zooms look like and

2047
01:51:03,600 --> 01:51:07,760
Speaker 2: the like, frankly, you just forget that anyone's ever going

2048
01:51:07,800 --> 01:51:10,479
Speaker 2: to hear any of this, and like that's like a

2049
01:51:10,560 --> 01:51:12,760
Speaker 2: really danger Like I joked that the most dangerous thing

2050
01:51:12,760 --> 01:51:15,080
Speaker 2: in the world is to think out loud in public,

2051
01:51:15,479 --> 01:51:18,519
Speaker 2: and like this like this format gets you doing that

2052
01:51:18,640 --> 01:51:21,519
Speaker 2: in a way, and it's like like sometimes like you

2053
01:51:21,560 --> 01:51:24,320
Speaker 2: finish and you're like, I really hope nobody listens to that,

2054
01:51:24,439 --> 01:51:28,000
Speaker 2: because like I'm really not sure what I've said.

2055
01:51:28,040 --> 01:51:31,640
Speaker 1: I'll say things about my childhood and I'm like, oh, no,

2056
01:51:31,760 --> 01:51:33,800
Speaker 1: I hope my my mother's still alive, and I'm like,

2057
01:51:33,880 --> 01:51:37,240
Speaker 1: oh she listens, Oh she's gonna she's gonna probe me

2058
01:51:37,280 --> 01:51:40,439
Speaker 1: on that one my mom was in.

2059
01:51:40,560 --> 01:51:43,960
Speaker 2: Still, I think every podcast I do, Hi Mom, and so,

2060
01:51:44,160 --> 01:51:47,640
Speaker 2: like I always I always catch myself being like, you know,

2061
01:51:47,680 --> 01:51:52,200
Speaker 2: don't don't embarrass the family, embarrass leave the locker room,

2062
01:51:52,240 --> 01:51:55,360
Speaker 2: talk in the locker room, like like you know, like

2063
01:51:55,560 --> 01:51:57,360
Speaker 2: just keep it together, be classic.

2064
01:51:58,479 --> 01:52:01,280
Speaker 1: Well, right, this was great. I kept you for an hour.

2065
01:52:01,600 --> 01:52:03,320
Speaker 1: I don't want to do it any longer because I

2066
01:52:03,439 --> 01:52:05,160
Speaker 1: feel like I've overstayed my welcome.

2067
01:52:05,680 --> 01:52:08,000
Speaker 2: H this was really fun, man, I really appreciate it.

2068
01:52:08,200 --> 01:52:10,639
Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate it, and like I said, love the book,

2069
01:52:10,680 --> 01:52:14,080
Speaker 1: and have I know where my audience thinks, and I

2070
01:52:14,160 --> 01:52:16,800
Speaker 1: know that if they haven't gotten this book, they will now.

2071
01:52:17,400 --> 01:52:18,240
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Chuck.

2072
01:52:27,240 --> 01:52:31,719
Speaker 1: Well, I hope I hope you weren't disappointed by right Thompson.

2073
01:52:31,800 --> 01:52:34,600
Speaker 1: I wasn't. So I I don't think I oversold it.

2074
01:52:34,640 --> 01:52:37,080
Speaker 1: I hope you don't think I over sold it. I

2075
01:52:37,120 --> 01:52:41,240
Speaker 1: am again. The book itself is tremendous. I encourage you

2076
01:52:41,360 --> 01:52:44,799
Speaker 1: to read this book. It's called The Barn by Right Thompson.

2077
01:52:45,160 --> 01:52:45,519
Speaker 2: Uh.

2078
01:52:45,640 --> 01:52:47,639
Speaker 1: You know we're not asking you to read a thousand words,

2079
01:52:47,680 --> 01:52:50,800
Speaker 1: a thousand pages on this. Uh. It's a it's a

2080
01:52:50,880 --> 01:52:53,439
Speaker 1: it's a worthy read, and it's a book worthy of

2081
01:52:53,479 --> 01:52:56,680
Speaker 1: your bookshelf for what it's worth. All right, let's go

2082
01:52:56,760 --> 01:52:59,840
Speaker 1: back in time. It's time for the history lesson of

2083
01:52:59,840 --> 01:53:02,599
Speaker 1: the We're gonna go into the podcast time machine. Let's

2084
01:53:02,640 --> 01:53:13,559
Speaker 1: see where we're going. You know, I always I always

2085
01:53:13,600 --> 01:53:17,080
Speaker 1: think that somehow I'm there's squiggly lines, right, That's what

2086
01:53:17,240 --> 01:53:19,519
Speaker 1: I'm that's that's a move I'm trying to go for you.

2087
01:53:19,920 --> 01:53:22,040
Speaker 1: So we're gonna go all the way back to nineteen

2088
01:53:22,080 --> 01:53:25,519
Speaker 1: thirty nine, it's Thanksgiving Week, and I thought I've not

2089
01:53:25,640 --> 01:53:29,160
Speaker 1: done it for the toodcast time machine. I've made references

2090
01:53:29,160 --> 01:53:32,880
Speaker 1: to it before. But for a few years we had

2091
01:53:33,000 --> 01:53:37,639
Speaker 1: two Thanksgivings. And how did we end up with two Thanksgivings? Well,

2092
01:53:38,600 --> 01:53:43,519
Speaker 1: it was the year FDR chose to move Thanksgiving and

2093
01:53:43,640 --> 01:53:48,160
Speaker 1: guess what, it nearly tore America in half. Let me

2094
01:53:48,160 --> 01:53:51,200
Speaker 1: tell you the story. So we it's it is Thanksgiving week.

2095
01:53:51,400 --> 01:53:53,360
Speaker 1: And by the way, it's kind of a late version

2096
01:53:53,360 --> 01:53:55,519
Speaker 1: of Thanksgiving. Right, Thanksgiving is gonna be the twenty eighth

2097
01:53:55,560 --> 01:53:57,760
Speaker 1: this year closer, you know, and that what does that

2098
01:53:57,840 --> 01:54:01,599
Speaker 1: really mean if you're a Christmas retailer means, oh, there's

2099
01:54:01,640 --> 01:54:05,679
Speaker 1: not You get one essentially one less week to sell

2100
01:54:06,880 --> 01:54:12,200
Speaker 1: Christmas presents. Right. You could kind of tell that retailer's

2101
01:54:12,200 --> 01:54:15,600
Speaker 1: a bit a little bit nervous about the shortened Thanksgiving

2102
01:54:16,080 --> 01:54:19,200
Speaker 1: to Christmas window this year. Because I don't know about you,

2103
01:54:19,280 --> 01:54:21,800
Speaker 1: but I guess we've all agreed. Black Friday now starts

2104
01:54:21,800 --> 01:54:25,679
Speaker 1: the Friday before Thanksgiving because it was Black Friday week.

2105
01:54:25,880 --> 01:54:29,920
Speaker 1: We are already discussed last time that now colleges send

2106
01:54:29,920 --> 01:54:32,920
Speaker 1: all their students home the Friday before Thanksgiving. There's no

2107
01:54:33,080 --> 01:54:36,680
Speaker 1: more short week at all, no more Tuesday and Wednesday

2108
01:54:36,720 --> 01:54:39,600
Speaker 1: being the crappy time at the airport. Trust me, both

2109
01:54:39,680 --> 01:54:42,000
Speaker 1: my wife and I could tell you Friday night we

2110
01:54:42,080 --> 01:54:44,720
Speaker 1: will each went there once and it was a madhouse

2111
01:54:45,720 --> 01:54:50,200
Speaker 1: at National. So clearly now the Friday before the Thanksgiving

2112
01:54:50,280 --> 01:54:53,680
Speaker 1: is the new Wednesday before Thanksgiving. And we now have

2113
01:54:53,800 --> 01:54:57,240
Speaker 1: decided to make Black Friday a week. It is no

2114
01:54:57,320 --> 01:54:59,880
Speaker 1: longer a day, it is a week. Perhaps it's a

2115
01:55:00,040 --> 01:55:05,360
Speaker 1: state of mind, right. So part of that, I think

2116
01:55:05,840 --> 01:55:09,600
Speaker 1: is because this year Thanksgiving does come a bit later,

2117
01:55:10,000 --> 01:55:13,880
Speaker 1: so when the shopping window shrinks, you know, retailers want

2118
01:55:13,880 --> 01:55:17,520
Speaker 1: to stretch, including Amazon, want to stretch the whole calendar backward.

2119
01:55:18,120 --> 01:55:22,160
Speaker 1: But of course, this isn't the first time that America

2120
01:55:22,160 --> 01:55:25,560
Speaker 1: has faced a late Thanksgiving and retail anxiety. And there

2121
01:55:25,560 --> 01:55:28,240
Speaker 1: was one year when a president tried to solve it himself.

2122
01:55:29,040 --> 01:55:32,240
Speaker 1: That's right, a president tried to move Thanksgiving and Americans

2123
01:55:32,280 --> 01:55:35,320
Speaker 1: reacted as if he'd committed a crime against Turkey and tradition.

2124
01:55:35,960 --> 01:55:37,320
Speaker 1: So today we're going to get back into the time

2125
01:55:37,320 --> 01:55:39,400
Speaker 1: machine and we're going to revisit nineteen thirty nine. It's

2126
01:55:39,440 --> 01:55:42,080
Speaker 1: the year Franklin Roosevelt changed the date of Thanksgiving and

2127
01:55:42,120 --> 01:55:45,200
Speaker 1: accidentally triggered a culture war. But to understand why it

2128
01:55:45,240 --> 01:55:47,560
Speaker 1: blew up, we should understand a little something about what

2129
01:55:47,600 --> 01:55:50,760
Speaker 1: most Americans have forgotten, and that is that Thanksgiving wasn't

2130
01:55:50,760 --> 01:55:52,760
Speaker 1: always on a fixed date or even a fixed week.

2131
01:55:53,160 --> 01:55:55,680
Speaker 1: In fact, presidents used to move it all the time.

2132
01:55:56,600 --> 01:56:00,360
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving before FDR, for most of you US, say, Street,

2133
01:56:00,360 --> 01:56:04,120
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving was not a settled holiday. Before Lincoln, we had

2134
01:56:04,160 --> 01:56:07,160
Speaker 1: thirteen states with thirteen different dates. Each governor used to

2135
01:56:07,200 --> 01:56:11,720
Speaker 1: pick their own day of Thanksgiving, usually somewhere between October

2136
01:56:11,720 --> 01:56:15,240
Speaker 1: and early December, and it would move constantly. There was

2137
01:56:15,400 --> 01:56:18,840
Speaker 1: no national standard. Then, in eighteen sixty three, in the

2138
01:56:18,880 --> 01:56:22,400
Speaker 1: middle of the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln proclaimed a single

2139
01:56:22,640 --> 01:56:26,800
Speaker 1: national Thanksgiving on the last Thursday in November, hoping it

2140
01:56:26,840 --> 01:56:30,240
Speaker 1: would unify the country during, of course, what was unimaginable division.

2141
01:56:31,000 --> 01:56:33,920
Speaker 1: But here's the part that people forget. From nineteen sixty

2142
01:56:33,920 --> 01:56:38,160
Speaker 1: three through nineteen thirty eight, every president issued a new

2143
01:56:38,240 --> 01:56:44,000
Speaker 1: proclamation each year declaring the specific date of Thanksgiving. We

2144
01:56:44,080 --> 01:56:47,240
Speaker 1: didn't do it. We didn't have a standard method. Each

2145
01:56:47,360 --> 01:56:51,760
Speaker 1: year a president essentially would decide, So Thanksgiving wasn't always

2146
01:56:51,760 --> 01:56:55,760
Speaker 1: a statutory holiday. It existed entirely at the whim of

2147
01:56:55,800 --> 01:56:59,560
Speaker 1: the White House. When the president wanted to have the holiday,

2148
01:57:00,080 --> 01:57:04,080
Speaker 1: presidents tweaked it ulysses As Grant, he moved it twice

2149
01:57:04,200 --> 01:57:08,240
Speaker 1: eighteen seventy one. In November twenty third, he moved it

2150
01:57:08,280 --> 01:57:10,760
Speaker 1: for harvest and travel reasons. The eighteen seventy harvest was

2151
01:57:10,840 --> 01:57:14,000
Speaker 1: late and early snowstorms hit the Northern States hard, so

2152
01:57:14,120 --> 01:57:17,560
Speaker 1: governors and clergy petitioned Grant, saying that a late November

2153
01:57:17,640 --> 01:57:21,360
Speaker 1: date made travel dangerous and excluded rural families. Grant decided

2154
01:57:21,360 --> 01:57:24,760
Speaker 1: to move Thanksgiving up a week to help travelers and farmers.

2155
01:57:25,400 --> 01:57:28,960
Speaker 1: Then in eighteen seventy five he moved it back. Newspapers,

2156
01:57:29,040 --> 01:57:32,879
Speaker 1: especially in New England, complained that Grant had disrupted tradition

2157
01:57:32,960 --> 01:57:35,720
Speaker 1: and commerce. So four years later Grant restored it to

2158
01:57:35,800 --> 01:57:38,600
Speaker 1: the last Thursday of November, which is of course the

2159
01:57:38,640 --> 01:57:43,160
Speaker 1: original Lincoln proclamation. Two moves for do different reasons, both

2160
01:57:43,160 --> 01:57:46,839
Speaker 1: of more more logistical than cultural. Right then came Grover Cleveland.

2161
01:57:46,880 --> 01:57:49,960
Speaker 1: He adjusted again. In eighteen eighty five. Cleveland shifted Thanksgiving

2162
01:57:50,000 --> 01:57:53,200
Speaker 1: slightly earlier for two reasons. Their economic jitters. After the

2163
01:57:53,200 --> 01:57:57,200
Speaker 1: Panic of eighteen eighty four, merchants wanted a steadier December,

2164
01:57:57,960 --> 01:58:00,960
Speaker 1: so in a symbolic reset, Cleveland wanted a hecast Thanksgiving

2165
01:58:01,000 --> 01:58:04,760
Speaker 1: as more secular, forward looking national holiday, not as a

2166
01:58:04,800 --> 01:58:10,160
Speaker 1: Civil war remembrance. So again he changed it slightly more

2167
01:58:10,200 --> 01:58:12,720
Speaker 1: to create a little bit more unity, but again it

2168
01:58:12,800 --> 01:58:15,440
Speaker 1: had to do with commerce. Then in eighteen ninety nine,

2169
01:58:15,440 --> 01:58:18,680
Speaker 1: William McKinley tweaks it. The Spanish American War just ended,

2170
01:58:19,280 --> 01:58:23,080
Speaker 1: Troops were slowly returning from Cuba, and the Philippines Veterans

2171
01:58:23,120 --> 01:58:27,080
Speaker 1: Group asked the White House to push Thanksgiving later so

2172
01:58:27,120 --> 01:58:30,320
Speaker 1: that more soldiers could actually get home in time. So

2173
01:58:30,440 --> 01:58:32,520
Speaker 1: McKinley obliged, and he actually picked a date that gave

2174
01:58:32,560 --> 01:58:35,720
Speaker 1: returning servicemen a chance to join their families. He moved

2175
01:58:35,760 --> 01:58:40,080
Speaker 1: it later. Across all these shifts, one theme would stand out.

2176
01:58:40,320 --> 01:58:44,919
Speaker 1: Presidents had moved Thanksgiving before, but always for weather, harvest, travel,

2177
01:58:45,240 --> 01:58:50,600
Speaker 1: or wartime logistics. It was never specifically for economic intervention.

2178
01:58:51,000 --> 01:58:53,680
Speaker 1: It was never specifically for retail sales, and it was

2179
01:58:53,760 --> 01:58:57,960
Speaker 1: never specifically for the shopping season. That's what made FDR's

2180
01:58:58,000 --> 01:59:02,720
Speaker 1: decision in nineteen thirty nine different and politically a bit explosive.

2181
01:59:03,320 --> 01:59:06,120
Speaker 1: So in nineteen thirty nine, we had a retail panic

2182
01:59:06,640 --> 01:59:11,240
Speaker 1: over a short shopping season. Why that year, Thanksgiving was

2183
01:59:11,240 --> 01:59:15,600
Speaker 1: scheduled for November thirtieth, right, as basically as late as

2184
01:59:15,640 --> 01:59:18,400
Speaker 1: it can go, Right, when the fourth Thursday can be

2185
01:59:18,480 --> 01:59:20,880
Speaker 1: that like it's possible, Right, it's as late as it

2186
01:59:20,920 --> 01:59:23,880
Speaker 1: can go. Here we were in nineteen thirty nine. The

2187
01:59:23,920 --> 01:59:25,480
Speaker 1: US is still trying to clocks weight out of the

2188
01:59:25,480 --> 01:59:29,600
Speaker 1: Great Depression. Unemployment is still high, Retailers are anxious. So

2189
01:59:29,680 --> 01:59:32,160
Speaker 1: retailers won the White House at a very short shopping season,

2190
01:59:32,160 --> 01:59:36,920
Speaker 1: will tank Christmas sales and tank the economy overall. So Roosevelt, ever,

2191
01:59:37,080 --> 01:59:41,720
Speaker 1: the economic thinker, right many ways, this is exactly something

2192
01:59:41,760 --> 01:59:44,720
Speaker 1: Trump would do. Let's not pretend he wouldn't even the

2193
01:59:44,760 --> 01:59:49,080
Speaker 1: believer that government could nudge consumer behavior. Hint, he decides

2194
01:59:49,120 --> 01:59:50,920
Speaker 1: to help. So he moves Thanksgiving up one week to

2195
01:59:51,000 --> 01:59:53,640
Speaker 1: November twenty third, And just like that, there was no

2196
01:59:53,680 --> 01:59:58,240
Speaker 1: consultation or snow congressional vote, just simply a presidential proclamation. Well,

2197
01:59:58,280 --> 02:00:03,200
Speaker 1: guess what happened. FDR's opponents dubbed it Frank's Giving, right,

2198
02:00:03,280 --> 02:00:07,840
Speaker 1: get it, franklindellan Roosevelt Franksgiving. So we have Franksgiving. The

2199
02:00:07,920 --> 02:00:11,520
Speaker 1: reaction became immediate, so families complained that school calendars didn't

2200
02:00:11,560 --> 02:00:14,800
Speaker 1: line up. Churches complained that the holiday schedules were thrown off.

2201
02:00:15,080 --> 02:00:18,839
Speaker 1: College football coaches even came out against it because rivalry

2202
02:00:18,880 --> 02:00:22,600
Speaker 1: games were being messed up for years were based on

2203
02:00:22,640 --> 02:00:27,000
Speaker 1: the last Thursday, so you had small business complaints. Governors complained,

2204
02:00:27,080 --> 02:00:31,400
Speaker 1: radio commentators were mocking the president for Franksgiving. Republicans accused

2205
02:00:31,480 --> 02:00:34,920
Speaker 1: Roosevelt of behaving like a monarch hint hint. Alf Landon

2206
02:00:35,040 --> 02:00:38,080
Speaker 1: in the GOP nominee just three years earlier, declares, this

2207
02:00:38,120 --> 02:00:41,720
Speaker 1: is another illustration of the confusion which has characterized this administration.

2208
02:00:42,520 --> 02:00:44,640
Speaker 1: All of this is nineteen thirty nine. People are calling

2209
02:00:44,760 --> 02:00:50,480
Speaker 1: Roosevelt authoritarian over this Thanksgiving proclamation, and then the states

2210
02:00:50,480 --> 02:00:53,960
Speaker 1: get involved. We end up with two Americas and two Thanksgivings.

2211
02:00:54,600 --> 02:00:57,720
Speaker 1: States were not required to follow the president's proclamation, so

2212
02:00:57,800 --> 02:01:01,600
Speaker 1: guess what many did not. In nineteen thirty nine, the

2213
02:01:01,640 --> 02:01:05,480
Speaker 1: country ended up with twenty three states celebrating FDR's early

2214
02:01:05,520 --> 02:01:09,360
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving or show we call it Franksgiving, twenty two states

2215
02:01:09,400 --> 02:01:14,320
Speaker 1: refusing and sticking with November thirtieth. At three states decided

2216
02:01:14,360 --> 02:01:17,080
Speaker 1: to have two Thanksgivings. God love those three states. The

2217
02:01:17,120 --> 02:01:21,320
Speaker 1: three states in case you're wondering, Colorado and Texas, and

2218
02:01:21,640 --> 02:01:25,280
Speaker 1: I say potentially Mississippi because it is unclear whether they

2219
02:01:25,360 --> 02:01:29,040
Speaker 1: put out a second proclamation or not. Definitely, it's clear

2220
02:01:29,080 --> 02:01:31,760
Speaker 1: that Texas and Colorado were two states that decided to

2221
02:01:31,800 --> 02:01:35,960
Speaker 1: have the two Thanksgivings, but Mississippi is the other one

2222
02:01:35,960 --> 02:01:39,800
Speaker 1: that didn't seem to also have proclamations for either. So

2223
02:01:40,400 --> 02:01:46,080
Speaker 1: either way, imagine having two Thanksgivings. Man, you know, in

2224
02:01:46,120 --> 02:01:48,320
Speaker 1: some ways, if you have two giant families and the

2225
02:01:48,320 --> 02:01:51,560
Speaker 1: in laws don't get along. You know, I'm somebody who

2226
02:01:51,640 --> 02:01:53,800
Speaker 1: I remember as a kid, my parents didn't want to

2227
02:01:53,800 --> 02:01:55,680
Speaker 1: say no to either one of their sets of parents.

2228
02:01:55,720 --> 02:01:58,720
Speaker 1: So I think I had Thanksgiving lunch with my father's

2229
02:01:58,800 --> 02:02:00,920
Speaker 1: side of the family and thanks Giving dinner with my

2230
02:02:00,960 --> 02:02:03,920
Speaker 1: mother's side of the family. We were early, right, you know,

2231
02:02:03,960 --> 02:02:06,080
Speaker 1: And that happens when you're on there, when you have

2232
02:02:06,160 --> 02:02:09,960
Speaker 1: kids early and you're in you're in your twenties, still

2233
02:02:10,320 --> 02:02:14,080
Speaker 1: you don't You're you feared disappointing your parents, so you

2234
02:02:14,160 --> 02:02:17,080
Speaker 1: end up trying to make everybody happy. By the way,

2235
02:02:17,240 --> 02:02:20,240
Speaker 1: this didn't last one year. Nineteen thirty nine. This ended

2236
02:02:20,280 --> 02:02:23,240
Speaker 1: up lasting in nineteen forty and we became a nation

2237
02:02:23,280 --> 02:02:26,520
Speaker 1: divided over Turkey. So by nineteen forty one, Congress finally

2238
02:02:26,520 --> 02:02:29,080
Speaker 1: decides to step in, so we had the war looming.

2239
02:02:29,120 --> 02:02:32,520
Speaker 1: Of course, Congress decided that Thanksgiving chaos needed to end,

2240
02:02:32,840 --> 02:02:35,240
Speaker 1: and they passed the resolution that we live with today,

2241
02:02:35,520 --> 02:02:38,560
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving as the fourth Thursday of November. It's not the

2242
02:02:38,640 --> 02:02:41,080
Speaker 1: last Thursday of November. That was a you know, it

2243
02:02:41,160 --> 02:02:44,120
Speaker 1: is the fourth Thursday of November. Roosevelt signs it into

2244
02:02:44,160 --> 02:02:46,720
Speaker 1: law December twenty sixth, nineteen forty one, and that is

2245
02:02:46,760 --> 02:02:51,120
Speaker 1: why Thanksgiving floats the way it does today. But wow,

2246
02:02:51,240 --> 02:02:54,520
Speaker 1: how about that? Huh? That the fact that we had

2247
02:02:55,000 --> 02:02:59,000
Speaker 1: these two Thanksgivings it split us on political lines. Look

2248
02:02:59,040 --> 02:03:03,080
Speaker 1: at how that feels. And I also bring it up

2249
02:03:03,120 --> 02:03:07,960
Speaker 1: because this was also sort of This was late in

2250
02:03:08,040 --> 02:03:11,120
Speaker 1: the second term of Roosevelt, right he's getting ready to

2251
02:03:11,200 --> 02:03:14,040
Speaker 1: looks like run for a third term. That exhaustion was

2252
02:03:14,080 --> 02:03:16,560
Speaker 1: in anyway, The point being is that there's so many

2253
02:03:16,640 --> 02:03:21,240
Speaker 1: similarities of the times we're in now and where we

2254
02:03:21,280 --> 02:03:24,640
Speaker 1: are right, especially with this year's Thanksgiving. It's late, the

2255
02:03:24,680 --> 02:03:28,080
Speaker 1: shopping windows tight by the way consumer sentiment sucks. Right now,

2256
02:03:28,240 --> 02:03:33,000
Speaker 1: we're a decade low in consumer sentiment. Retailers are very nervous,

2257
02:03:33,040 --> 02:03:37,040
Speaker 1: just like they weren't thirty nine. So that may explain

2258
02:03:37,080 --> 02:03:38,960
Speaker 1: why they've taken matters in their own hands. And now

2259
02:03:38,960 --> 02:03:41,880
Speaker 1: we have Black Friday Month, or Black Friday Week or

2260
02:03:41,920 --> 02:03:45,880
Speaker 1: Black Friday, which may begin I think with I think

2261
02:03:45,880 --> 02:03:50,520
Speaker 1: it begins sometime on the fourth of July, you know,

2262
02:03:50,680 --> 02:03:53,600
Speaker 1: maybe just after the fireworks that that's the official kickoff

2263
02:03:54,400 --> 02:03:57,600
Speaker 1: for Black for the Black Friday season. Kind of half kidding,

2264
02:03:57,600 --> 02:04:02,120
Speaker 1: but you see where this is going anyway, It's it's

2265
02:04:02,160 --> 02:04:06,920
Speaker 1: an interesting story. It's a reminder sort of how some

2266
02:04:07,560 --> 02:04:09,920
Speaker 1: you know, wait all I tell you the story of

2267
02:04:09,920 --> 02:04:14,160
Speaker 1: Red Santa Claus. That's that, and how sometimes when you

2268
02:04:14,200 --> 02:04:18,320
Speaker 1: find out some of the sources of where it's a

2269
02:04:18,320 --> 02:04:20,480
Speaker 1: little it's a little bit of a bummer that it

2270
02:04:20,560 --> 02:04:24,160
Speaker 1: wasn't just this collective. No, we rose above partisanship in

2271
02:04:24,200 --> 02:04:27,120
Speaker 1: some ways because I think Thanksgiving is our best holiday.

2272
02:04:27,520 --> 02:04:30,040
Speaker 1: It's the one time that Americans try to be their

2273
02:04:30,080 --> 02:04:33,760
Speaker 1: best versions of themselves more so than in any other holiday,

2274
02:04:33,800 --> 02:04:36,360
Speaker 1: I think, more so than the than the religious holidays

2275
02:04:36,360 --> 02:04:39,600
Speaker 1: in the winter. I'm not saying people don't get holiday

2276
02:04:39,600 --> 02:04:42,760
Speaker 1: spirit and all that stuff, but there's Thanksgiving is because

2277
02:04:42,800 --> 02:04:46,960
Speaker 1: it's not because it's secular. It feels as if it's

2278
02:04:47,000 --> 02:04:50,920
Speaker 1: the most inclusive of all the holidays. I think first

2279
02:04:50,960 --> 02:04:54,880
Speaker 1: gen Americans dig it just as much as as fifth

2280
02:04:54,880 --> 02:04:58,840
Speaker 1: and sixth generation Americans. It is. It is a very

2281
02:04:59,000 --> 02:05:04,920
Speaker 1: American thing do so. But like everything that we may

2282
02:05:05,080 --> 02:05:08,440
Speaker 1: think of as traditional now, at some point it was

2283
02:05:08,440 --> 02:05:10,400
Speaker 1: a political controversy.

2284
02:05:10,480 --> 02:05:10,880
Speaker 2: All right.

2285
02:05:11,280 --> 02:05:13,200
Speaker 1: So with that, let me dig into a couple of

2286
02:05:13,240 --> 02:05:15,720
Speaker 1: questions before I get in my college football stick for

2287
02:05:15,760 --> 02:05:17,360
Speaker 1: the week, ask Chuck.

2288
02:05:20,040 --> 02:05:20,280
Speaker 2: Ah.

2289
02:05:20,320 --> 02:05:24,720
Speaker 1: These are some well timed questions. Thank you very much

2290
02:05:24,760 --> 02:05:27,760
Speaker 1: producer Nesa for making sure I answered this question because

2291
02:05:27,800 --> 02:05:30,240
Speaker 1: it's something I didn't discuss in the open. First question

2292
02:05:30,280 --> 02:05:32,040
Speaker 1: comes from mel and asks, hey, can we please get

2293
02:05:32,040 --> 02:05:34,280
Speaker 1: your hot take on Trump falling head over heels in

2294
02:05:34,280 --> 02:05:36,360
Speaker 1: love with New York City mayor Mom Donnie? This is

2295
02:05:36,400 --> 02:05:38,680
Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty degree change. What magic does Mom

2296
02:05:38,680 --> 02:05:41,360
Speaker 1: Donnie have? Trump with smint and why? Well, a few

2297
02:05:41,360 --> 02:05:46,440
Speaker 1: things I think. Look, Trump wants to be associated with winners.

2298
02:05:46,560 --> 02:05:54,000
Speaker 1: That's number one. Two, when somebody gets it gets good

2299
02:05:54,040 --> 02:05:56,600
Speaker 1: press for being Trump like he wants to find a

2300
02:05:56,640 --> 02:06:00,200
Speaker 1: way to to say nice things. Look what he does

2301
02:06:00,200 --> 02:06:03,560
Speaker 1: with Bernie Sanders, right, he knows many of sanders voters

2302
02:06:03,760 --> 02:06:07,960
Speaker 1: ended up with him. He My guess is, Mom Donnie

2303
02:06:07,960 --> 02:06:09,840
Speaker 1: came armed with letting him know, Hey, some of my voter,

2304
02:06:10,000 --> 02:06:11,880
Speaker 1: some of your voters voted for me in twenty five,

2305
02:06:11,880 --> 02:06:16,160
Speaker 1: who voted for you in twenty four? And you know

2306
02:06:16,600 --> 02:06:19,400
Speaker 1: Trump is you know, the last person that whispers something

2307
02:06:19,400 --> 02:06:21,800
Speaker 1: in his ears is what he ends up spewing out.

2308
02:06:22,280 --> 02:06:27,839
Speaker 1: So you know, look, everybody we already learned. Mom Donnie

2309
02:06:27,960 --> 02:06:31,120
Speaker 1: called other governors and mayors who have dealt with Trump,

2310
02:06:31,160 --> 02:06:34,600
Speaker 1: including Mayor Bowser, I think Governor Wes Moore, who confirmed

2311
02:06:34,600 --> 02:06:37,040
Speaker 1: with me he had that conversation with Mom Donnie. Apparently

2312
02:06:37,080 --> 02:06:39,720
Speaker 1: Shapiro and Whitmer as well. How do you manage Trump?

2313
02:06:39,760 --> 02:06:42,280
Speaker 1: What's you know what some advice at dealing with them?

2314
02:06:43,360 --> 02:06:46,680
Speaker 1: And uh, it wasn't in either one of their interests

2315
02:06:47,800 --> 02:06:50,320
Speaker 1: personally to get into a feud, especially in this moment.

2316
02:06:50,360 --> 02:06:52,560
Speaker 1: Trump's in a bad place, right, he can't get on

2317
02:06:52,600 --> 02:06:54,919
Speaker 1: the wrong side of somebody that just won on the economy.

2318
02:06:54,960 --> 02:06:57,120
Speaker 1: So I think think that that was a motivator. But

2319
02:06:58,720 --> 02:07:02,120
Speaker 1: you know, anybody that is compared to him favorably, he

2320
02:07:02,240 --> 02:07:04,360
Speaker 1: is going to find a way. I mean, for the

2321
02:07:04,400 --> 02:07:07,520
Speaker 1: same reason he can't help himself with Putin right. Whenever

2322
02:07:07,520 --> 02:07:10,560
Speaker 1: Putin says nice things, he loves it. Why these dictators

2323
02:07:10,560 --> 02:07:14,360
Speaker 1: will say nice things and he melts. So, you know,

2324
02:07:14,440 --> 02:07:17,440
Speaker 1: Mam Donnie's no different than anybody else that works Trump

2325
02:07:18,640 --> 02:07:24,200
Speaker 1: from overseas as well. So I thought it was fascinating

2326
02:07:24,240 --> 02:07:27,320
Speaker 1: that he said out words are words Trump. You know,

2327
02:07:27,360 --> 02:07:29,640
Speaker 1: I know where I spent a lot of time saying

2328
02:07:29,680 --> 02:07:33,800
Speaker 1: off in Trump Bullshit's the American public. He does one

2329
02:07:33,840 --> 02:07:37,000
Speaker 1: place where he's telling the truth is it is where

2330
02:07:37,040 --> 02:07:38,920
Speaker 1: he's telling the truth is when he says, oh, that's

2331
02:07:39,000 --> 02:07:42,200
Speaker 1: just campaign talk, right right when he was helping Mam Donnie, Oh,

2332
02:07:42,200 --> 02:07:44,160
Speaker 1: don't answer that question. They just you know, about whether

2333
02:07:44,160 --> 02:07:46,760
Speaker 1: he's a fascist or a despot or a communist. Right,

2334
02:07:47,840 --> 02:07:50,440
Speaker 1: Trump views all of that, He had views it all's

2335
02:07:50,480 --> 02:07:53,400
Speaker 1: fair during the campaign, and then he wants if you're

2336
02:07:53,440 --> 02:07:55,400
Speaker 1: willing to put aside things and just say, oh, we're

2337
02:07:55,400 --> 02:07:58,400
Speaker 1: just falling around than he is. Look, I can just

2338
02:07:58,440 --> 02:08:00,760
Speaker 1: tell you my own interactions with him when he when

2339
02:08:00,800 --> 02:08:02,480
Speaker 1: he's come after, when he came after me in some

2340
02:08:02,520 --> 02:08:06,960
Speaker 1: really harsh ways. You know, I'd say, you know, mister President,

2341
02:08:07,840 --> 02:08:09,240
Speaker 1: you know when you called me a son of a bitch.

2342
02:08:09,240 --> 02:08:12,680
Speaker 1: My daughter saw it first. She's fifteen. I'm not crazy

2343
02:08:12,720 --> 02:08:14,720
Speaker 1: about that. He goes, well, you can tell her, I

2344
02:08:14,760 --> 02:08:16,880
Speaker 1: don't really mean it, you know. I don't say these

2345
02:08:16,920 --> 02:08:19,240
Speaker 1: things about reporters. I don't like I say things about

2346
02:08:19,240 --> 02:08:21,760
Speaker 1: the reporters that matter to me, you know, And that,

2347
02:08:21,960 --> 02:08:26,280
Speaker 1: you know, he sort of he thinks it's all part

2348
02:08:26,360 --> 02:08:29,080
Speaker 1: of the game, and that I'm playing a role and

2349
02:08:29,160 --> 02:08:31,600
Speaker 1: he's playing a role. And I think he's always playing

2350
02:08:31,640 --> 02:08:34,280
Speaker 1: a role. I think there's there's and he wants us

2351
02:08:34,320 --> 02:08:38,880
Speaker 1: all to play the role a certain role too. And

2352
02:08:38,960 --> 02:08:41,400
Speaker 1: I think that that's where some of this sister, where

2353
02:08:41,400 --> 02:08:46,400
Speaker 1: he views the theater as the theater. And then he's

2354
02:08:46,400 --> 02:08:48,520
Speaker 1: also somebody that says he'll talk with anybody, and if

2355
02:08:48,560 --> 02:08:50,400
Speaker 1: you're wanting to talk with anybody overseas, then you should

2356
02:08:50,400 --> 02:08:51,840
Speaker 1: be able to want him to talk with anybody that

2357
02:08:51,840 --> 02:08:54,440
Speaker 1: you politically disagree with. It is strange, though, that he

2358
02:08:54,440 --> 02:08:57,000
Speaker 1: seems to have a warmer relationship already with Mom Donnie

2359
02:08:57,120 --> 02:09:00,480
Speaker 1: than he has with either Schumburg, Jeffreys and he's made

2360
02:09:00,480 --> 02:09:02,600
Speaker 1: a choice not to have a relationship with Schumer, Jeffreys

2361
02:09:02,720 --> 02:09:08,000
Speaker 1: or moreover, uh, it's possible that his own staff has

2362
02:09:08,040 --> 02:09:10,360
Speaker 1: kept Schumer and Jeffries away from Trump for fear he

2363
02:09:10,360 --> 02:09:13,760
Speaker 1: may cut deals with them, which is not which is

2364
02:09:13,800 --> 02:09:18,320
Speaker 1: not an uh, which is not a which is not

2365
02:09:19,240 --> 02:09:21,560
Speaker 1: something that those who don't want to see deal Scott

2366
02:09:21,600 --> 02:09:27,680
Speaker 1: with them. And it's there's a reasonable likelihood of that anyway.

2367
02:09:27,760 --> 02:09:33,560
Speaker 1: So I at first was I surprised by it? I

2368
02:09:33,600 --> 02:09:35,800
Speaker 1: was was I shocked by it? I wasn't by the

2369
02:09:35,840 --> 02:09:39,920
Speaker 1: way he really Let imagine you're at least stephonic, right,

2370
02:09:40,120 --> 02:09:43,400
Speaker 1: you came up as a fast rising star of Paul

2371
02:09:43,480 --> 02:09:47,440
Speaker 1: Ryan's and Mitt Romney's Republican Party. You decide I'm gonna

2372
02:09:47,440 --> 02:09:49,920
Speaker 1: go a maggots to sort of replace Liz Cheney in

2373
02:09:49,920 --> 02:09:52,640
Speaker 1: the leadership. Right, I'm gonna take advantage of this moment

2374
02:09:53,000 --> 02:09:55,760
Speaker 1: and and and just suck up to Trump sort of

2375
02:09:55,840 --> 02:09:59,360
Speaker 1: be something I'm not and pretend I'm this. And so

2376
02:09:59,520 --> 02:10:03,960
Speaker 1: she does and becomes this sort of maga transforms and

2377
02:10:04,200 --> 02:10:05,960
Speaker 1: like kind of like we see Lindsey Graham and his

2378
02:10:06,080 --> 02:10:10,160
Speaker 1: sort of pathetic heel turn that he's done and now

2379
02:10:10,200 --> 02:10:14,040
Speaker 1: he's all, you know, mister magnet, because he felt like

2380
02:10:14,080 --> 02:10:17,440
Speaker 1: it was the only way he could stay relevant, and

2381
02:10:17,480 --> 02:10:19,960
Speaker 1: that's all he cares about is relevancy. But it's kind

2382
02:10:19,960 --> 02:10:22,400
Speaker 1: of for those of us that thought there was something

2383
02:10:22,400 --> 02:10:25,280
Speaker 1: more to him than just staying relevant, you know, And

2384
02:10:25,360 --> 02:10:28,560
Speaker 1: it's always amusing to me. People need to remember that

2385
02:10:28,640 --> 02:10:30,840
Speaker 1: the reason that Steele Dosi I got credibility is because

2386
02:10:30,880 --> 02:10:33,680
Speaker 1: of Lindsey Graham. Lindsey Graham is literally the person that

2387
02:10:33,720 --> 02:10:36,160
Speaker 1: handed the steel dos out to about half the reporters

2388
02:10:36,200 --> 02:10:40,520
Speaker 1: that ended up taking a look at it. So never

2389
02:10:41,040 --> 02:10:43,560
Speaker 1: nobody should ever forget that fact. And he has been

2390
02:10:43,640 --> 02:10:46,800
Speaker 1: running away from that fact ever since he did that flip.

2391
02:10:46,880 --> 02:10:49,800
Speaker 1: But you're at least aphonic. Did you sold your own

2392
02:10:51,000 --> 02:10:54,160
Speaker 1: your ideology out? You sold your own soul out all

2393
02:10:54,240 --> 02:10:56,760
Speaker 1: to quickly move up thinking it was going to work,

2394
02:10:56,840 --> 02:10:58,839
Speaker 1: And what has it gotten you? You got the leadership

2395
02:10:58,880 --> 02:11:00,400
Speaker 1: position for a period of time, so you got to

2396
02:11:00,440 --> 02:11:05,080
Speaker 1: replace Liz Cheney. Let's see, did you end up ambassador

2397
02:11:05,080 --> 02:11:07,160
Speaker 1: to the U. N Nope, that got yanked from you.

2398
02:11:08,000 --> 02:11:10,480
Speaker 1: How's that governor campaign gonna know? You're trying to literally

2399
02:11:10,600 --> 02:11:15,960
Speaker 1: use mom Donnie to to hang uh and use Mom

2400
02:11:16,040 --> 02:11:18,960
Speaker 1: Donnie to defeat HOKL And what does Trump do literally

2401
02:11:19,000 --> 02:11:22,920
Speaker 1: pulls the rhetorical rugout from under you on this because

2402
02:11:22,960 --> 02:11:26,880
Speaker 1: now anything she says about Mom Donnie, you say, but

2403
02:11:27,040 --> 02:11:30,480
Speaker 1: President Trump, she tried to clean it up. She tried

2404
02:11:30,480 --> 02:11:32,480
Speaker 1: she put out a you know, I I don't know

2405
02:11:32,520 --> 02:11:34,520
Speaker 1: what he sees. I still see this and he's a

2406
02:11:34,560 --> 02:11:38,680
Speaker 1: communist and he's this, this and this, and it's like, oh, well,

2407
02:11:38,720 --> 02:11:41,720
Speaker 1: but one thing Donald Trump did do is it really

2408
02:11:41,760 --> 02:11:46,680
Speaker 1: did expose at least Stephonic and she just is you know, again,

2409
02:11:47,200 --> 02:11:49,560
Speaker 1: this is why if you're a Republican and you're and

2410
02:11:49,560 --> 02:11:52,120
Speaker 1: you're trying to figure out how to navigate Trump, when

2411
02:11:52,160 --> 02:11:55,800
Speaker 1: you when you when you flip your who you are,

2412
02:11:56,120 --> 02:11:59,880
Speaker 1: when you completely try to change your identity, just know

2413
02:12:00,040 --> 02:12:01,920
Speaker 1: when you get exposed, you'll have no clothes on.

2414
02:12:02,360 --> 02:12:02,520
Speaker 2: Right.

2415
02:12:02,600 --> 02:12:06,680
Speaker 1: It is the literally, she is politically naked now, and

2416
02:12:06,880 --> 02:12:10,959
Speaker 1: it is you know, it is likely an unfixable situation

2417
02:12:11,040 --> 02:12:15,160
Speaker 1: for her at this point. Next question comes from Austin

2418
02:12:15,200 --> 02:12:18,280
Speaker 1: from Austin. It's just you gotta love that, right, Austin

2419
02:12:18,320 --> 02:12:22,839
Speaker 1: from Austin. I'm hoping for a question from Orlando. From Orlando,

2420
02:12:23,040 --> 02:12:25,360
Speaker 1: that would be nice we could get that. That would

2421
02:12:25,400 --> 02:12:28,640
Speaker 1: be that would be fantastic. He goes, I know you're

2422
02:12:28,680 --> 02:12:30,480
Speaker 1: a journalists not a politician. You've made clear you want

2423
02:12:30,480 --> 02:12:32,839
Speaker 1: to contribute from your current platform. But given your name, recognition,

2424
02:12:32,880 --> 02:12:35,160
Speaker 1: trust with the public, and ability to communicate across the

2425
02:12:35,160 --> 02:12:36,880
Speaker 1: out without ego or spin, I can't help, but wonder

2426
02:12:36,920 --> 02:12:38,120
Speaker 1: is it totally out of the question for you to

2427
02:12:38,200 --> 02:12:40,360
Speaker 1: run for office some day? You check a lot of boxes.

2428
02:12:40,400 --> 02:12:42,480
Speaker 1: People say they want a leader, deep knowledge of policy,

2429
02:12:42,520 --> 02:12:45,240
Speaker 1: respect for institutions, genuine desire for unity, even if it's

2430
02:12:45,240 --> 02:12:47,280
Speaker 1: a long shot. I think the question's worth asking, Austin.

2431
02:12:47,360 --> 02:12:51,240
Speaker 1: I appreciate the question. I have gotten a few inquiries

2432
02:12:54,120 --> 02:12:59,320
Speaker 1: from a variety of places. I just I really think

2433
02:12:59,360 --> 02:13:05,760
Speaker 1: it would. I care about the institution of the media enough,

2434
02:13:06,360 --> 02:13:13,400
Speaker 1: you know. I go back to something when Jay Carney

2435
02:13:13,920 --> 02:13:18,280
Speaker 1: made the decision to become go from being bureau chief

2436
02:13:18,280 --> 02:13:21,120
Speaker 1: of Time magazine a spokesperson for Vice President Biden. I

2437
02:13:21,200 --> 02:13:23,800
Speaker 1: understood the decision he had to make, and he was

2438
02:13:23,800 --> 02:13:26,200
Speaker 1: making for his family. Time was he said, you know, look,

2439
02:13:26,240 --> 02:13:28,120
Speaker 1: this was he was sort of the beer chief for

2440
02:13:28,160 --> 02:13:31,160
Speaker 1: when Time had relevancy and it was quickly fading away.

2441
02:13:31,200 --> 02:13:34,200
Speaker 1: I mean you know, his he had to look, he

2442
02:13:34,680 --> 02:13:37,680
Speaker 1: decided he had to pivot careers. And I understand it,

2443
02:13:38,000 --> 02:13:40,480
Speaker 1: and I understand it from his point of view, but

2444
02:13:40,600 --> 02:13:44,080
Speaker 1: his decision hurt all of us. It hurt the entire

2445
02:13:44,600 --> 02:13:48,120
Speaker 1: political media community, because there are those of us who

2446
02:13:48,360 --> 02:13:52,040
Speaker 1: just you know, aren't political actors. And he just called

2447
02:13:53,040 --> 02:13:56,400
Speaker 1: making the decision he made called, you know, only reinforced

2448
02:13:56,400 --> 02:13:59,600
Speaker 1: this belief those in the right that all mainstream media's

2449
02:13:59,680 --> 02:14:01,520
Speaker 1: you know, if given a choice, is always going to

2450
02:14:01,560 --> 02:14:04,840
Speaker 1: pick one side of the aisle. And of course it

2451
02:14:04,880 --> 02:14:07,800
Speaker 1: calls into question the reporting itself for a period of time.

2452
02:14:08,360 --> 02:14:11,200
Speaker 1: It's why, that's why so many journalists are just outraged

2453
02:14:11,200 --> 02:14:13,800
Speaker 1: by this. Olivia Newsy, I cannot believe Vanity Fair is

2454
02:14:13,800 --> 02:14:18,360
Speaker 1: employing and anybody that trades sex for scoops, if that's

2455
02:14:18,400 --> 02:14:21,600
Speaker 1: what this is, certainly what it looks like, right, It's

2456
02:14:21,680 --> 02:14:24,480
Speaker 1: it's wrong on any number of levels. But your credibility

2457
02:14:24,520 --> 02:14:28,840
Speaker 1: as a journalist should matter. You know, if I ever

2458
02:14:28,880 --> 02:14:30,480
Speaker 1: did run, I would never run with either of the

2459
02:14:30,480 --> 02:14:32,280
Speaker 1: two parties. It would be some sort of you know,

2460
02:14:32,360 --> 02:14:38,800
Speaker 1: nonpartisan or independent. But I just the only the only

2461
02:14:38,880 --> 02:14:41,400
Speaker 1: office that would intrigue me would be would be some

2462
02:14:41,440 --> 02:14:44,480
Speaker 1: sort of mayor position. If I ever did it, To

2463
02:14:44,600 --> 02:14:47,680
Speaker 1: be fully, you know, I'm not going to be here

2464
02:14:47,720 --> 02:14:49,640
Speaker 1: and be one of these. I'd never do it. I'm

2465
02:14:49,800 --> 02:14:52,440
Speaker 1: pretty sure i'd never do it. But if I thought

2466
02:14:52,480 --> 02:14:55,760
Speaker 1: I could help my community where I lived in as

2467
02:14:55,800 --> 02:14:59,520
Speaker 1: a as some sort of county or you know, or

2468
02:14:59,640 --> 02:15:02,920
Speaker 1: mayor in a way that might you know, to help

2469
02:15:03,000 --> 02:15:05,440
Speaker 1: solve problems, if I thought I could do that, I

2470
02:15:05,480 --> 02:15:08,720
Speaker 1: would not go and be in the legislature of any kind,

2471
02:15:10,080 --> 02:15:12,480
Speaker 1: not under these circums. I just not the way these

2472
02:15:12,520 --> 02:15:17,120
Speaker 1: legislatures are working these days, there would be no chance

2473
02:15:17,200 --> 02:15:21,320
Speaker 1: on something like that. So it is seriously unlikely at all.

2474
02:15:21,400 --> 02:15:24,920
Speaker 1: And like I said, the thing that the only elected

2475
02:15:24,920 --> 02:15:28,280
Speaker 1: officials I've come across who have gotten satisfaction out of

2476
02:15:28,320 --> 02:15:33,720
Speaker 1: the job are mayors and governors and obviously presidents. I'm

2477
02:15:33,720 --> 02:15:37,400
Speaker 1: not even remotely putting myself in that category. But that's

2478
02:15:37,480 --> 02:15:41,000
Speaker 1: why it's sort of mayor feels like the the most

2479
02:15:41,000 --> 02:15:45,240
Speaker 1: credible place that someone like me can end up. All right,

2480
02:15:45,280 --> 02:15:46,400
Speaker 1: one last question, and then I want to do my

2481
02:15:46,440 --> 02:15:50,840
Speaker 1: college football. This comes from Greg from Peoria. I always

2482
02:15:50,880 --> 02:15:52,760
Speaker 1: love to find out how it's playing in Peoria. You

2483
02:15:52,800 --> 02:15:55,240
Speaker 1: mentioned we're now more of a You're now more of

2484
02:15:55,240 --> 02:15:57,040
Speaker 1: a policy want than a political one would led to

2485
02:15:57,080 --> 02:15:59,120
Speaker 1: that shift. I think I've always been both. For what

2486
02:15:59,160 --> 02:16:02,440
Speaker 1: it's worth, do you track evolving policies across administrations, especially

2487
02:16:02,480 --> 02:16:05,520
Speaker 1: when some change constantly or barely exists. On a lighter note,

2488
02:16:05,520 --> 02:16:07,280
Speaker 1: my son and I are both Notre Dame fans. He's

2489
02:16:07,320 --> 02:16:09,280
Speaker 1: die hard, I'm fair weather. He got fired up when

2490
02:16:09,280 --> 02:16:11,440
Speaker 1: you defended Miami and downplayed Notre Dame wins. He swears

2491
02:16:11,440 --> 02:16:13,800
Speaker 1: teams are never one hundred percent, So please don't tempt

2492
02:16:13,840 --> 02:16:19,160
Speaker 1: him into researching resting starters. It'll tank his GPA. Greg

2493
02:16:19,200 --> 02:16:21,400
Speaker 1: for purious is ps, love the election coverage, Watch the

2494
02:16:21,400 --> 02:16:23,480
Speaker 1: whole night, Thank you well man. It turns out our

2495
02:16:23,520 --> 02:16:26,120
Speaker 1: numbers were even bigger than I thought. I've now heard

2496
02:16:26,120 --> 02:16:28,760
Speaker 1: some estimates that we might have even crossed over a

2497
02:16:28,800 --> 02:16:32,960
Speaker 1: million combined when you count our x and our various youtubes.

2498
02:16:33,240 --> 02:16:37,360
Speaker 1: I'm still trying to figure out the references on that.

2499
02:16:38,600 --> 02:16:41,000
Speaker 1: It's I guess the argument I would make is I've

2500
02:16:41,040 --> 02:16:44,840
Speaker 1: always been I think that, and this is true of

2501
02:16:44,920 --> 02:16:47,280
Speaker 1: most people that cover politics I think for a long

2502
02:16:47,320 --> 02:16:51,320
Speaker 1: period of time, is that there's always an issuer too,

2503
02:16:51,440 --> 02:16:54,000
Speaker 1: that you're very passionate about that sort of gets you

2504
02:16:54,120 --> 02:16:58,440
Speaker 1: interested in getting involved or reading about politics. And then yes,

2505
02:16:58,520 --> 02:17:01,680
Speaker 1: political reporting can be very much, very campaign focused, and

2506
02:17:01,800 --> 02:17:05,240
Speaker 1: certainly the first fifteen years of my career were much

2507
02:17:05,320 --> 02:17:07,920
Speaker 1: about the business of getting people elected. That's what I

2508
02:17:07,959 --> 02:17:10,600
Speaker 1: did for a living. I ran the trade publication that

2509
02:17:10,760 --> 02:17:13,400
Speaker 1: just focused on that, so that's what I had to

2510
02:17:13,440 --> 02:17:16,520
Speaker 1: be an expert on. The great thing about shifting over

2511
02:17:16,520 --> 02:17:18,520
Speaker 1: to NBC is that is that it was like I

2512
02:17:18,520 --> 02:17:21,080
Speaker 1: had one foot in both camps and I got to

2513
02:17:21,120 --> 02:17:23,320
Speaker 1: finally showcase a little bit more of the policy chops.

2514
02:17:23,320 --> 02:17:26,240
Speaker 1: And that's what made why I Meet the Press was

2515
02:17:26,240 --> 02:17:29,279
Speaker 1: sort of the perfect job, you know, perfect job in reporting,

2516
02:17:29,520 --> 02:17:33,480
Speaker 1: you know, and for the night and it just was

2517
02:17:33,520 --> 02:17:35,360
Speaker 1: and it was great, and I'm glad I had my

2518
02:17:35,440 --> 02:17:39,280
Speaker 1: nine year run. I don't think i'd want to go back,

2519
02:17:39,320 --> 02:17:42,800
Speaker 1: and I you know, I want to just create the

2520
02:17:42,800 --> 02:17:44,920
Speaker 1: stuff I liked the best about it and try to

2521
02:17:44,920 --> 02:17:47,199
Speaker 1: build a better version of it here. So the longer

2522
02:17:47,240 --> 02:17:50,840
Speaker 1: conversations and the ability to do both policy and politics,

2523
02:17:50,920 --> 02:17:53,520
Speaker 1: so it's not really that it's one over the other.

2524
02:17:53,560 --> 02:17:57,200
Speaker 1: It's just my career was focused on the business of

2525
02:17:57,240 --> 02:17:59,920
Speaker 1: campaigns and elections for fifteen years. That was my job.

2526
02:18:00,520 --> 02:18:04,680
Speaker 1: That was the profit motivator of the publication. Even you know,

2527
02:18:04,879 --> 02:18:07,240
Speaker 1: there would be policy stuff that I'd read about, but

2528
02:18:07,280 --> 02:18:10,920
Speaker 1: we didn't have a place to cover it. That's obviously

2529
02:18:11,040 --> 02:18:13,080
Speaker 1: was different than the last twenty years of my career

2530
02:18:13,120 --> 02:18:15,600
Speaker 1: here where I've been in that mode. And now that's

2531
02:18:15,640 --> 02:18:17,480
Speaker 1: the beauty of this podcast that essentially I get to

2532
02:18:17,520 --> 02:18:26,520
Speaker 1: do a little bit of mold. All right, I'm gonna

2533
02:18:26,840 --> 02:18:29,720
Speaker 1: put a button in that for this week we will do.

2534
02:18:30,000 --> 02:18:33,320
Speaker 1: I will do a lot more questions later this week,

2535
02:18:33,680 --> 02:18:37,400
Speaker 1: I promise, But let me give you what you know. Look,

2536
02:18:37,400 --> 02:18:40,440
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be honest. I don't think this was this

2537
02:18:40,800 --> 02:18:45,480
Speaker 1: weekend could have gone better for Miami's chances in the

2538
02:18:45,480 --> 02:18:50,760
Speaker 1: college football playoff. I was my producer, who's listening right now,

2539
02:18:50,800 --> 02:18:53,680
Speaker 1: one of my producers who's listening right now, Lauren Gardner.

2540
02:18:53,680 --> 02:18:56,520
Speaker 1: It's a big, utal youth fan. Let's just say I

2541
02:18:56,520 --> 02:18:59,520
Speaker 1: was a big Kansas State fan this weekend. And how

2542
02:18:59,560 --> 02:19:01,320
Speaker 1: the hell did you tah end up winning that game.

2543
02:19:01,360 --> 02:19:03,360
Speaker 1: I'm still trying to figure out Kansas State had that

2544
02:19:03,400 --> 02:19:06,119
Speaker 1: game in the bag. I was hoping at least one

2545
02:19:06,160 --> 02:19:09,760
Speaker 1: team that was unfairly ranked above Miami. I don't accept

2546
02:19:09,800 --> 02:19:11,480
Speaker 1: the premise of Miami should be ranked as low as

2547
02:19:11,480 --> 02:19:13,960
Speaker 1: they were, but I wanted at least one team ranked

2548
02:19:13,959 --> 02:19:20,320
Speaker 1: ahead of them to lose, and that didn't happen. I

2549
02:19:20,320 --> 02:19:22,200
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna you know, at this point, it's a

2550
02:19:22,240 --> 02:19:25,560
Speaker 1: moot question. My son and I disagreed on whether we

2551
02:19:25,680 --> 02:19:30,120
Speaker 1: needed whether USC win over Oregon would be good for

2552
02:19:30,160 --> 02:19:32,000
Speaker 1: Miami or bad for Miami. He thought it would be

2553
02:19:32,040 --> 02:19:36,040
Speaker 1: bad for Miami because that USC would then leapfrog Miami. Maybe,

2554
02:19:36,200 --> 02:19:38,400
Speaker 1: but then I think Oregon. I kind of think both

2555
02:19:38,400 --> 02:19:40,840
Speaker 1: Oregon and USC are gonna lose next week. Oregon's gonna

2556
02:19:40,879 --> 02:19:43,160
Speaker 1: lose to Washington. I'm just convinced of it. That game's

2557
02:19:43,240 --> 02:19:47,000
Speaker 1: in Washington, it's in Seattle. It's going to be weird,

2558
02:19:47,120 --> 02:19:49,480
Speaker 1: that weird weather. Yes, I know, Organs, you said weird weather.

2559
02:19:49,520 --> 02:19:52,640
Speaker 1: But that's a real rivalry game. And Washington's not a

2560
02:19:52,640 --> 02:19:56,000
Speaker 1: bad team, and Jed Fish a great coach, and so

2561
02:19:56,640 --> 02:20:00,160
Speaker 1: and or. I'm not convinced Oregons. Certainly they don't. I

2562
02:20:00,160 --> 02:20:02,560
Speaker 1: don't not convince their top five team. I get that

2563
02:20:02,600 --> 02:20:04,879
Speaker 1: they're right. You are what your record says you are.

2564
02:20:05,280 --> 02:20:08,800
Speaker 1: As the great, Bill Parcels said, but I just don't

2565
02:20:08,840 --> 02:20:13,520
Speaker 1: buy that they're a top five team. They just they

2566
02:20:13,560 --> 02:20:16,280
Speaker 1: just I smell an upset there. And if you told

2567
02:20:16,360 --> 02:20:19,400
Speaker 1: me you U CLABTSC, that wouldn't shock anybody right. In fact,

2568
02:20:19,400 --> 02:20:23,760
Speaker 1: I I'll never forget one of my favorite Miami games

2569
02:20:23,800 --> 02:20:26,000
Speaker 1: of all time as a game where Miami actually was

2570
02:20:26,080 --> 02:20:28,280
Speaker 1: part of one of their worst years they ever had.

2571
02:20:28,280 --> 02:20:33,400
Speaker 1: It was in nineteen ninety eight, I believe, and it

2572
02:20:33,480 --> 02:20:38,160
Speaker 1: was Miami had Miami played Ucla in the last game

2573
02:20:38,200 --> 02:20:39,200
Speaker 1: of the Sea. It was sort of like in the

2574
02:20:39,480 --> 02:20:41,320
Speaker 1: in the first December, and it was a game that

2575
02:20:41,320 --> 02:20:43,240
Speaker 1: was actually supposed to be the first week of the season.

2576
02:20:43,360 --> 02:20:46,920
Speaker 1: It got postponed because of a hurricane, so ended up

2577
02:20:47,000 --> 02:20:49,840
Speaker 1: getting moved to the last game of the season. Well, Ucla,

2578
02:20:50,480 --> 02:20:53,440
Speaker 1: Kansas State, and Tennessee all entered that weekend ranked number one.

2579
02:20:53,520 --> 02:20:56,720
Speaker 1: Kansas State I think lost. This was a stranger. I

2580
02:20:56,760 --> 02:20:58,760
Speaker 1: think Kansas State lost in the Big twelve title game.

2581
02:20:59,000 --> 02:21:02,480
Speaker 1: I think they lost a text Florida ends up losing.

2582
02:21:02,560 --> 02:21:05,680
Speaker 1: I think in the SEC game title game, I think,

2583
02:21:06,440 --> 02:21:08,320
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, but they were ranked number one

2584
02:21:08,320 --> 02:21:10,400
Speaker 1: and UCLA was number one, and some boards and they

2585
02:21:10,879 --> 02:21:13,520
Speaker 1: lost in one of the craziest games where Edgerrin James,

2586
02:21:13,560 --> 02:21:15,680
Speaker 1: who would go on to be an NFL I think

2587
02:21:15,720 --> 02:21:17,400
Speaker 1: he's gotten. I think he's in the Hall of Fame.

2588
02:21:17,760 --> 02:21:19,959
Speaker 1: If he's not, he will be. But he was sort

2589
02:21:20,000 --> 02:21:21,560
Speaker 1: of the you know, one of the big three for

2590
02:21:21,640 --> 02:21:25,000
Speaker 1: the initial run of Peyton Mannings Colts right Edgrid James

2591
02:21:25,080 --> 02:21:28,760
Speaker 1: ran for over three hundred yards against UCLA. Okay, ran

2592
02:21:29,360 --> 02:21:31,800
Speaker 1: for over three hundred yards. It was one of these

2593
02:21:31,920 --> 02:21:33,879
Speaker 1: crazy games that just went back and forth and buy

2594
02:21:33,920 --> 02:21:36,880
Speaker 1: me somehow hung On totally ruined UCLA season, cost them

2595
02:21:36,920 --> 02:21:39,720
Speaker 1: a shot at the national title. But that day everybody lost,

2596
02:21:39,760 --> 02:21:41,720
Speaker 1: and I think Florida and Florida State ended up playing

2597
02:21:41,720 --> 02:21:44,439
Speaker 1: a rematch for the national title. One of the worst outcomes,

2598
02:21:44,440 --> 02:21:46,800
Speaker 1: but it's what the computers came up with somehow. I

2599
02:21:46,840 --> 02:21:50,320
Speaker 1: think everybody loses. Florida State had already lost. I think

2600
02:21:50,720 --> 02:21:54,160
Speaker 1: to to I think it was Florida or I know

2601
02:21:54,200 --> 02:21:56,880
Speaker 1: what it was, that's the and then Florida State Tennessee,

2602
02:21:57,040 --> 02:22:00,000
Speaker 1: that's what it was. Tennessee ends up in the national

2603
02:22:00,160 --> 02:22:04,440
Speaker 1: title game. And this is tem Martin's Tennessee volunteers who

2604
02:22:04,480 --> 02:22:06,039
Speaker 1: ended up facing I think a third or a four

2605
02:22:06,080 --> 02:22:11,160
Speaker 1: street Florida State quarterback due to injuries, and we had it.

2606
02:22:11,280 --> 02:22:14,440
Speaker 1: But what I remember is that that last weekend was crazy.

2607
02:22:14,840 --> 02:22:17,320
Speaker 1: You had because of the crazy BCS rankings. There were

2608
02:22:17,320 --> 02:22:20,480
Speaker 1: three different number one teams, depending on which poll computer

2609
02:22:20,840 --> 02:22:23,840
Speaker 1: you were looking at. Tennis floor, I think it was

2610
02:22:24,200 --> 02:22:27,760
Speaker 1: probably was Tennessee, Tennessee, Kansas State, and UCLA. They all

2611
02:22:27,800 --> 02:22:30,480
Speaker 1: three lose, but then somehow it's Tennessee and Florida State

2612
02:22:30,800 --> 02:22:33,960
Speaker 1: in the matchup. So point being, I'm expecting real chaos

2613
02:22:33,959 --> 02:22:37,840
Speaker 1: next week, but that preview is coming, I do want undo.

2614
02:22:37,959 --> 02:22:40,480
Speaker 1: So let's talk about Miami went in Virginia Tech. It

2615
02:22:40,560 --> 02:22:43,040
Speaker 1: was a bit frustrating that Miami didn't have more points

2616
02:22:43,240 --> 02:22:46,560
Speaker 1: because they dominated the game. Game was never in doubt,

2617
02:22:47,000 --> 02:22:49,320
Speaker 1: just like the Miami Notre Dame game. People are really

2618
02:22:49,320 --> 02:22:51,640
Speaker 1: forgetting how actually that game played out, and it's driving

2619
02:22:51,680 --> 02:22:55,279
Speaker 1: me crazy. Notre Dame lost by three points in the scoreboard,

2620
02:22:55,280 --> 02:22:58,240
Speaker 1: but that was not the game. Miami controlled the game throughout,

2621
02:22:58,440 --> 02:23:00,720
Speaker 1: had a double digit lead throughout, and it was just

2622
02:23:00,879 --> 02:23:04,600
Speaker 1: you know, a late, sort of cheap touchdown because Mario

2623
02:23:04,680 --> 02:23:07,800
Speaker 1: Crystobal does what he does and sort of playing prevent

2624
02:23:08,160 --> 02:23:12,080
Speaker 1: rather than just sort of smothering a team, which, of

2625
02:23:12,080 --> 02:23:16,240
Speaker 1: course he slightly learned the lesson differently and actually went

2626
02:23:16,280 --> 02:23:21,040
Speaker 1: ahead and scored a cheap late touchdown pat Miami's lead

2627
02:23:21,080 --> 02:23:23,360
Speaker 1: here in this Virginia Tech game. But we were playing

2628
02:23:23,360 --> 02:23:26,760
Speaker 1: a team that cared, right, It's clear, you know this

2629
02:23:26,800 --> 02:23:29,680
Speaker 1: is now third week in a row where Notre Dame

2630
02:23:29,720 --> 02:23:31,720
Speaker 1: has not played a team that really cared about the

2631
02:23:31,760 --> 02:23:34,279
Speaker 1: game you had, Pitt. Clearly, now we know the difference

2632
02:23:34,280 --> 02:23:36,600
Speaker 1: between Pitt caring about a game they beat Georgia Tech

2633
02:23:36,680 --> 02:23:40,440
Speaker 1: save players didn't play against. Again, Notre Dame should not

2634
02:23:40,480 --> 02:23:42,680
Speaker 1: get much credit for that game, for that pit win,

2635
02:23:42,800 --> 02:23:44,520
Speaker 1: nor should they get much credit for the Navy win.

2636
02:23:44,879 --> 02:23:47,039
Speaker 1: And I, you know, sorry to my friends in Peoria,

2637
02:23:47,680 --> 02:23:50,280
Speaker 1: but that should matter. You and I both know if

2638
02:23:50,280 --> 02:23:52,240
Speaker 1: Miami ended up in a situation like that, they sure

2639
02:23:52,240 --> 02:23:57,400
Speaker 1: as hell hold that against Miami. But I'm not going

2640
02:23:57,480 --> 02:23:59,879
Speaker 1: to sit here and say, hey, seventy points is seventy points, right,

2641
02:24:00,160 --> 02:24:02,160
Speaker 1: And obviously they had all those pick sixes from the

2642
02:24:02,240 --> 02:24:05,720
Speaker 1: lacrosse player who didn't know how to throw football. God

2643
02:24:05,800 --> 02:24:08,000
Speaker 1: love them all, right, Miami could also put up seventy

2644
02:24:08,000 --> 02:24:09,600
Speaker 1: against a lacrosse player. I don't think we faced the

2645
02:24:09,680 --> 02:24:12,920
Speaker 1: lacrosse player for what it's worth. But I digress. I'm

2646
02:24:12,920 --> 02:24:14,840
Speaker 1: not going to sit here downplay their win. It was

2647
02:24:14,840 --> 02:24:16,879
Speaker 1: a great win. Good for them for putting seventy points

2648
02:24:16,920 --> 02:24:19,800
Speaker 1: on the board. Trust me, we had put seventy points

2649
02:24:19,840 --> 02:24:21,440
Speaker 1: on the board, I'd be going, hey, we put seventy

2650
02:24:21,440 --> 02:24:25,320
Speaker 1: points on the board. But I will say this, I

2651
02:24:25,360 --> 02:24:27,560
Speaker 1: do not only does Miami need to be Pitt next

2652
02:24:27,560 --> 02:24:30,959
Speaker 1: week on Saturday, a game that my daughter is pushing

2653
02:24:31,000 --> 02:24:32,560
Speaker 1: me really hard to do as a day trip. It's

2654
02:24:32,560 --> 02:24:34,680
Speaker 1: only a four hour drive. So let's just say we're

2655
02:24:34,720 --> 02:24:41,040
Speaker 1: contemplating here at the Todd household. Certainly would like to

2656
02:24:41,080 --> 02:24:45,120
Speaker 1: see Miami win by more than twenty one points, which

2657
02:24:45,160 --> 02:24:48,720
Speaker 1: I believe is the I believe Notre Dame one thirty

2658
02:24:48,760 --> 02:24:50,640
Speaker 1: five seventeen in that game. I want to say it

2659
02:24:50,680 --> 02:24:52,040
Speaker 1: is I think that's what they want by or was

2660
02:24:52,040 --> 02:24:54,480
Speaker 1: it thirty seven to fifteen something like that. Either way,

2661
02:24:54,800 --> 02:24:56,800
Speaker 1: if Miami can be Pitt by more than Notre Dame,

2662
02:24:56,920 --> 02:25:00,520
Speaker 1: that may matter. There is a chance. Right the path

2663
02:25:00,560 --> 02:25:04,280
Speaker 1: to Miami getting the ACC title game is simpler now,

2664
02:25:04,480 --> 02:25:08,560
Speaker 1: meaning if Miami beats Pitt, Virginias is a Virginia Tech,

2665
02:25:10,040 --> 02:25:12,160
Speaker 1: I think, and SMU wins. I think it's Miami and

2666
02:25:12,280 --> 02:25:16,160
Speaker 1: SMU in the for essentially a rematch for the AC title,

2667
02:25:16,320 --> 02:25:18,840
Speaker 1: which is probably would be the matchup of the two

2668
02:25:19,000 --> 02:25:22,480
Speaker 1: of the two currently best teams in the ACC, and frankly,

2669
02:25:22,520 --> 02:25:24,360
Speaker 1: they may be the best teams in the ACC, or

2670
02:25:24,400 --> 02:25:27,920
Speaker 1: Miami in SMU, which arguably were the two best teams

2671
02:25:27,920 --> 02:25:31,920
Speaker 1: in the ACC last year when SMU got the invite,

2672
02:25:31,959 --> 02:25:34,880
Speaker 1: but but Miami did not because frankly, Mimmy screwed up

2673
02:25:34,879 --> 02:25:40,320
Speaker 1: that last game against Syracuse. So it's not an unrealistic path.

2674
02:25:40,440 --> 02:25:42,520
Speaker 1: Will Virginia Tech get up for the Virginia game. It

2675
02:25:42,560 --> 02:25:45,760
Speaker 1: is an in state rivalry game, I hope so James

2676
02:25:45,760 --> 02:25:48,760
Speaker 1: Franklin being I wish James Franklin being introduced as coach

2677
02:25:48,879 --> 02:25:50,640
Speaker 1: next week, not this past week. I think it gave

2678
02:25:50,680 --> 02:25:52,760
Speaker 1: him a little extra juice, which is why we got

2679
02:25:52,800 --> 02:25:55,360
Speaker 1: a pretty good effort out of them. But I think

2680
02:25:55,360 --> 02:25:57,000
Speaker 1: if you watch the game, you realized Miami's one of

2681
02:25:57,040 --> 02:25:58,920
Speaker 1: the ten best teams in the country. They have easily

2682
02:25:58,920 --> 02:26:01,960
Speaker 1: one of the two or three best defenses in the country.

2683
02:26:02,440 --> 02:26:04,720
Speaker 1: It is I if Miami's ten and two, I don't

2684
02:26:04,760 --> 02:26:06,520
Speaker 1: know how you leave them out if you want the

2685
02:26:07,120 --> 02:26:09,760
Speaker 1: if you're trying to find the ten best teams plus

2686
02:26:09,840 --> 02:26:11,640
Speaker 1: you know, the app plus those that have to get

2687
02:26:12,080 --> 02:26:15,400
Speaker 1: put in. I don't know how you don't include Miami.

2688
02:26:15,480 --> 02:26:19,800
Speaker 1: I'm I am I accept the premise that Miami will

2689
02:26:19,800 --> 02:26:21,920
Speaker 1: get in with Notre Dame. Miami isn't going to get

2690
02:26:21,920 --> 02:26:25,240
Speaker 1: in instead of Notre Dame. Should they? Of course if

2691
02:26:25,360 --> 02:26:27,480
Speaker 1: the idea that you don't use head to head and

2692
02:26:28,040 --> 02:26:30,440
Speaker 1: more and more of the college football media world realizes

2693
02:26:30,440 --> 02:26:33,920
Speaker 1: how ridiculous that sounds that somebody that literally a head

2694
02:26:33,959 --> 02:26:36,600
Speaker 1: to head isn't going to matter, which is just asinine

2695
02:26:37,080 --> 02:26:41,680
Speaker 1: and makes college football look like the WWE. Okay, this

2696
02:26:41,760 --> 02:26:44,640
Speaker 1: is what wrestling does. It just decides who they want.

2697
02:26:45,200 --> 02:26:47,480
Speaker 1: It is not a real sport, and why college football

2698
02:26:47,520 --> 02:26:50,280
Speaker 1: wants to be more like the WWE. But of course ESPN,

2699
02:26:50,320 --> 02:26:54,320
Speaker 1: now in bed with the WWE, now wants to manufacture competition,

2700
02:26:54,520 --> 02:27:00,000
Speaker 1: fake competition, like they're doing with the ESPN Invitational. I've

2701
02:27:00,040 --> 02:27:02,720
Speaker 1: watched Oklahoma play football. I know they may be ten

2702
02:27:02,760 --> 02:27:05,680
Speaker 1: and two. This is not a top ten football team, folks.

2703
02:27:06,040 --> 02:27:08,600
Speaker 1: This is not a team that is gonna I don't

2704
02:27:08,600 --> 02:27:12,240
Speaker 1: know they took all those turnovers by Alabama for them

2705
02:27:12,280 --> 02:27:15,760
Speaker 1: to lose for Oklahoma to win. They have a good defense,

2706
02:27:15,840 --> 02:27:19,240
Speaker 1: but man, that offense is futrid. I watched every I

2707
02:27:19,280 --> 02:27:21,680
Speaker 1: had it on my multi box at Missouri Oklahoma game

2708
02:27:21,680 --> 02:27:24,120
Speaker 1: because obviously I wanted to just get Oklahoma out of

2709
02:27:24,160 --> 02:27:26,080
Speaker 1: the way. I can't believe they're ranked ahead. If the

2710
02:27:26,120 --> 02:27:29,560
Speaker 1: teams are ranked ahead of at all, I just don't

2711
02:27:29,600 --> 02:27:34,440
Speaker 1: get it. So LSU do something, you know, take let's

2712
02:27:34,440 --> 02:27:37,080
Speaker 1: put Oklahoma out of it, out of its misery, because

2713
02:27:37,080 --> 02:27:39,680
Speaker 1: that's a team that's going nowhere in the playoff anyway.

2714
02:27:40,040 --> 02:27:42,800
Speaker 1: Sorry to my Sooner fans, but not this team. It

2715
02:27:42,920 --> 02:27:46,960
Speaker 1: is just I don't see it. I don't get it.

2716
02:27:47,000 --> 02:27:50,680
Speaker 1: I don't see it. I'm going to stop chirping about BYU.

2717
02:27:51,120 --> 02:27:53,880
Speaker 1: All they do is show up and win football games.

2718
02:27:54,120 --> 02:27:55,720
Speaker 1: This they went on the road and did it again.

2719
02:27:56,360 --> 02:28:00,200
Speaker 1: You know, I think they're in and I think the

2720
02:28:00,200 --> 02:28:02,520
Speaker 1: Big twelve. I think if they lose to Texas Tech

2721
02:28:02,600 --> 02:28:05,440
Speaker 1: a second time, they probably won't get invited losing to

2722
02:28:05,480 --> 02:28:08,480
Speaker 1: the same team twice. But if b WHYU wins and

2723
02:28:09,560 --> 02:28:11,720
Speaker 1: lose and Texas Tech loses, I think you have a

2724
02:28:11,760 --> 02:28:14,480
Speaker 1: case of two teams from the Big twelve going and

2725
02:28:14,560 --> 02:28:18,160
Speaker 1: only one from the ACC. So I am I am

2726
02:28:18,200 --> 02:28:19,680
Speaker 1: not going to sit here and be upset if at

2727
02:28:19,680 --> 02:28:21,600
Speaker 1: eleven and two b YU gets in over at ten

2728
02:28:21,680 --> 02:28:25,040
Speaker 1: into Miami, just like an eleven and two SMU got

2729
02:28:25,040 --> 02:28:26,960
Speaker 1: in over a ten into Miami. I think that is fair.

2730
02:28:27,760 --> 02:28:30,280
Speaker 1: Utah should not be ranked ahead of Miami. Sorry, Lauren,

2731
02:28:30,400 --> 02:28:35,080
Speaker 1: I don't see it. I don't get it. And you know,

2732
02:28:35,120 --> 02:28:37,680
Speaker 1: if there's a chance Vanderbilt I saw that one of

2733
02:28:37,680 --> 02:28:40,879
Speaker 1: the polls Vanderbilts behind Miami and the College Football Playoff poll.

2734
02:28:40,920 --> 02:28:45,280
Speaker 1: I think they've now been ranked ahead of Miami on that. Yeah,

2735
02:28:45,320 --> 02:28:47,680
Speaker 1: if you just want an SEC invitational, you would take

2736
02:28:47,720 --> 02:28:50,160
Speaker 1: more of these, you know, SEC teams that may or

2737
02:28:50,160 --> 02:28:55,160
Speaker 1: may not be probably not as good as Miami. But

2738
02:28:55,320 --> 02:28:57,520
Speaker 1: I you know the headquarters of the SECS in Nashville.

2739
02:28:57,560 --> 02:29:03,000
Speaker 1: Don't think I'm not nervous about that one. And look,

2740
02:29:03,000 --> 02:29:06,080
Speaker 1: if Michigan beats Ohio State, I know, I know Miami

2741
02:29:06,360 --> 02:29:08,959
Speaker 1: at ten and two, Michigan that beats Ohio State's getting

2742
02:29:09,000 --> 02:29:12,760
Speaker 1: in ahead of Ah, ahead of A ten and two Miami.

2743
02:29:13,240 --> 02:29:16,320
Speaker 1: Uh So I am I am not naive on that one.

2744
02:29:17,440 --> 02:29:20,000
Speaker 1: So let's just say I have to be a big

2745
02:29:20,000 --> 02:29:24,680
Speaker 1: Ohio State fan because we don't need any more ten

2746
02:29:24,720 --> 02:29:28,120
Speaker 1: and two teams, nine and three Michigans. No nine and

2747
02:29:28,160 --> 02:29:30,840
Speaker 1: three teams getting in without a conference title, not with

2748
02:29:30,879 --> 02:29:35,080
Speaker 1: this many ten and two teams floating around. So I

2749
02:29:35,080 --> 02:29:36,920
Speaker 1: don't think it was the best week for Miami's at

2750
02:29:37,000 --> 02:29:41,039
Speaker 1: large big chances. I do see that the college football

2751
02:29:41,080 --> 02:29:44,400
Speaker 1: press is now on Miami side. I think people realize

2752
02:29:44,720 --> 02:29:48,400
Speaker 1: ignoring a head to head is a dangerous precedent to set.

2753
02:29:49,000 --> 02:29:52,800
Speaker 1: I think the ACC it's pretty pretty fair that this

2754
02:29:52,800 --> 02:29:57,760
Speaker 1: this specific committee, this ESPN run committee, has gone out

2755
02:29:57,760 --> 02:30:00,360
Speaker 1: of their way to screw the ACC three straight years,

2756
02:30:00,680 --> 02:30:03,960
Speaker 1: legitimately so but really badly with the Florida State year,

2757
02:30:04,160 --> 02:30:10,200
Speaker 1: and they're setting this one up here. But ultimately I

2758
02:30:10,240 --> 02:30:14,480
Speaker 1: think this they are. My guess is they're hoping against

2759
02:30:14,480 --> 02:30:16,720
Speaker 1: hope that Miami gets into that ACC title game so

2760
02:30:16,760 --> 02:30:19,400
Speaker 1: that there is no question about it. And if Miami

2761
02:30:19,440 --> 02:30:21,920
Speaker 1: loses in that title game, they not getting an invite

2762
02:30:22,440 --> 02:30:24,360
Speaker 1: and they can just chalk it up to a third loss.

2763
02:30:24,360 --> 02:30:27,240
Speaker 1: And if Miami wins, they're automatically in and maybe we'll

2764
02:30:27,240 --> 02:30:29,199
Speaker 1: get to do a rematch with Notre Dame and once

2765
02:30:29,240 --> 02:30:33,160
Speaker 1: again defeat Notre Dame and make it clear that they

2766
02:30:33,160 --> 02:30:34,640
Speaker 1: don't belong. By the way, if you want to sit

2767
02:30:34,680 --> 02:30:36,120
Speaker 1: here and talk about the teams that are head of

2768
02:30:36,120 --> 02:30:40,879
Speaker 1: Miami in this college football rankings, you know there is

2769
02:30:40,920 --> 02:30:46,120
Speaker 1: a I would argue they have a real problem in

2770
02:30:46,720 --> 02:30:52,320
Speaker 1: how they've done this with these rankings because you've got

2771
02:30:53,480 --> 02:30:55,880
Speaker 1: Alabama ranked out of Miami, and if you compare them

2772
02:30:55,879 --> 02:31:00,920
Speaker 1: one to one, Miami defeated the team that feed at Alabama.

2773
02:31:01,840 --> 02:31:03,840
Speaker 1: For those that were entertaining the idea of Texas being

2774
02:31:03,840 --> 02:31:07,280
Speaker 1: ahead of Miami, Florida b Texas, Miami be Florida. So

2775
02:31:07,560 --> 02:31:10,600
Speaker 1: that's a tough one to overcome on that one. And

2776
02:31:10,720 --> 02:31:12,760
Speaker 1: of course the head to head with Notre Dame. So

2777
02:31:15,520 --> 02:31:17,560
Speaker 1: never mind that Ole miss struggled with a Florida team

2778
02:31:17,600 --> 02:31:20,039
Speaker 1: that we beat the crap out of Does that matter? Right?

2779
02:31:20,160 --> 02:31:22,320
Speaker 1: And now they're they're a one loss team, right they?

2780
02:31:23,160 --> 02:31:26,080
Speaker 1: I think they probably survive a loss to the Mississippi State.

2781
02:31:26,920 --> 02:31:32,080
Speaker 1: But I do think this Lane Kiff and drama, you know,

2782
02:31:32,720 --> 02:31:37,360
Speaker 1: doesn't don't we don't isn't this all like, isn't the

2783
02:31:37,440 --> 02:31:41,040
Speaker 1: correct narrative going to be Lane Kiff and Lee's old

2784
02:31:41,120 --> 02:31:44,800
Speaker 1: Miss costs them, you know, teams distracted, they lose the

2785
02:31:44,840 --> 02:31:48,160
Speaker 1: Egg Bowl, and he goes to LSU. Is that the

2786
02:31:48,640 --> 02:31:50,480
Speaker 1: Is that the turn of events that we see this weekend.

2787
02:31:51,840 --> 02:31:54,280
Speaker 1: If that is, does Ole Miss not even get an

2788
02:31:54,320 --> 02:31:58,120
Speaker 1: invite to the playoff? If that's what happens anyway, I

2789
02:31:58,240 --> 02:32:00,840
Speaker 1: just have a feeling where we're head of for some chaos.

2790
02:32:01,800 --> 02:32:04,560
Speaker 1: But bottom line, not a great I thought Miami played

2791
02:32:04,600 --> 02:32:07,080
Speaker 1: well on the field. I wish we had more points

2792
02:32:07,160 --> 02:32:08,800
Speaker 1: to show for it, but they played really well on

2793
02:32:08,840 --> 02:32:11,840
Speaker 1: the field. I think reminding people that they are one

2794
02:32:11,840 --> 02:32:14,040
Speaker 1: of the ten best teams in the country, and you

2795
02:32:14,080 --> 02:32:16,720
Speaker 1: want to it's not a complete playoff bracket if you're

2796
02:32:16,720 --> 02:32:20,240
Speaker 1: not including Miami this year. If you're not gonna include

2797
02:32:20,240 --> 02:32:22,640
Speaker 1: the best team in the ACC, you're not. You don't

2798
02:32:22,640 --> 02:32:27,680
Speaker 1: have a complete playoff bracket. But hey, on this one,

2799
02:32:27,959 --> 02:32:31,640
Speaker 1: I'm quite biased, all right with that. I'm going to

2800
02:32:31,680 --> 02:32:33,160
Speaker 1: take a break for forty eight hours, but I will

2801
02:32:33,600 --> 02:32:35,440
Speaker 1: see you on Wednesday. Thanks for listening.